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View Full Version : Hal McCoy unloads on Taveras



mbgrayson
08-18-2009, 11:32 PM
Willy Taveras must be playing badly when Hal piles on in his blog (http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2009/08/18/many_of_his_teammates_think.html?cxtype=twt_HalMcC oy_Reds):


Pinch-hitter Freddie Lewis hit a ball to dead center. As he has done so often this year, center fielder Willy Taveras broke poorly on the ball, running laterally to his left before realizing the ball was over his head. It fell for a double.

He doesnít get on base. When he does he doesnít steal when it is needed. He was brought in to be a leadoff hitter and couldnít do it and is now batting second. And he is below average in the field. What can Taveras do? He has a nice stereo set in the clubhouse that plays loud, headache-inducing salsa music.

And holy cahooties. Taveras just hit a ground ball to the mound and trotted toward first base. Didnít run. Jogged. Stopped before he got to the bag. Manager Dusty Baker immediately yanked him from the lineup, replacing him with Laynce Nix.

The Reds later announced that Taveras has a strained right quadriceps muscle. I donít question the injury, but it was awfully convenient
As far as Iím concerned, and many other fans are concerned, Taveras can rot on the bench the rest of the season. Iíve seen nothing to merit the millions the Reds have flushed down the toilet when they brought this guy in.

Highlifeman21
08-18-2009, 11:33 PM
I really look forward to reading Hal's blog as he nears the end of the season and his forced retirement.

I can't imagine he'll pull many punches the rest of the way.

WMR
08-18-2009, 11:35 PM
Willy is the funniest running joke in MLB right now.

reds44
08-18-2009, 11:36 PM
I'm not sure if I've ever seen members of the media start turning on the team as much as they have this year.

reds44
08-18-2009, 11:37 PM
Willy is the funniest running joke in MLB right now.
Apparently you should say jogging joke.

Homer Bailey
08-18-2009, 11:37 PM
So even Hal McCoy can see further than Baker and Jocketty.

westofyou
08-18-2009, 11:47 PM
I'm not sure if I've ever seen members of the media start turning on the team as much as they have this year.

Johnny Temple knocked Earl Lawson out back in the 50's.

I bet Hal could kick Willys arse, that's how weak a hitter Taveras is.

Caveat Emperor
08-19-2009, 12:19 AM
As I said in the other thread, the truly soul-sucking part of the Willy Taveras debacle is that he's actually been WORSE than advertised. He's on pace to set career lows in virtually every offensive category worth counting -- including OBP and SLG.

Most fans were prepared for Willy Taveras to be terrible, but I don't think there are many here who predicted this level of terrible for him. It's like getting an extra 10 kicks in the groin just for flinching on the first one.

fearofpopvol1
08-19-2009, 12:21 AM
good for Hal. he's not usually that critical either. you know it's bad now.

Edskin
08-19-2009, 12:22 AM
As I said in the other thread, the truly soul-sucking part of the Willy Taveras debacle is that he's actually been WORSE than advertised. He's on pace to set career lows in virtually every offensive category worth counting -- including OBP and SLG.

Most fans were prepared for Willy Taveras to be terrible, but I don't think there are many here who predicted this level of terrible for him. It's like getting an extra 10 kicks in the groin just for flinching on the first one.

At this point, my cojones are numb anyway...kick away Reds!

corkedbat
08-19-2009, 12:30 AM
$4M says that October isn't over before WJ starts talking about how they expect a big turnaround year from WT in 2010.

VR
08-19-2009, 12:42 AM
His OPS is sub .500 over the last 3 months.

And he hasn't batted lower than 2nd.


Chew on that for awhile.

dougdirt
08-19-2009, 01:21 AM
Willy is the funniest running joke in MLB right now.

Sadly I must have missed where it was funny :(

dsmith421
08-19-2009, 01:29 AM
I'm sure Willy will staunch his tears with hundred dollar bills tonight.

He is the living embodiment of why I hate the franchise I love. And yes, eddabbs, I realize it's cheap and prosaic to complain about Taveras. But he is the worst player in baseball and he doesn't even try.

jojo
08-19-2009, 01:33 AM
If Willy T was a professional wrestler his ring name would be Unmitigated Disaster.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2009, 01:39 AM
Willy seems like a nice guy and all, but he's easily the worst player I have ever seen. Ever. And that's saying a lot because the Reds have had a ton of awful players over the years ... but Taveras tops them all. He can't hit, he can't walk, and he can't play defense. It's amazing that a major leaguer can't judge a flyball. He has one tool, his speed, and he rarely uses it. It will be an absolute joke if he's not released this offseason.

Emin3mShady07
08-19-2009, 01:41 AM
Great, he gets a raise next year, and the only team that would be insane enough to take him, my white sox, just acquired a long term CFer in Alex Rios, so I doubt he's going anywhere.

Brutus
08-19-2009, 02:16 AM
Great, he gets a raise next year, and the only team that would be insane enough to take him, my white sox, just acquired a long term CFer in Alex Rios, so I doubt he's going anywhere.

Never, under any circumstance, count out the Royals to do such a dastardly deed.

cincyinco
08-19-2009, 02:23 AM
wow, I didn't think the willy t season could get any lower, but it just did. It's beyond pathetic. I didn't think it could be much worse than cp last year, but leave it to the reds and willy t to outdo themselves once again.

Sigh.

Ron Madden
08-19-2009, 04:12 AM
Willy seems like a nice guy and all, but he's easily the worst player I have ever seen. Ever. And that's saying a lot because the Reds have had a ton of awful players over the years ... but Taveras tops them all. He can't hit, he can't walk, and he can't play defense. It's amazing that a major leaguer can't judge a flyball. He has one tool, his speed, and he rarely uses it. It will be an absolute joke if he's not released this offseason.

I agree with you OBM.

The sad thing is we all could see this coming but Bob, Walt and Dusty thought it was a good move to sign him, and to rub salt into the wound they still run him out there every night batting at the top of the order.

That should scare or depress the hell outta everyone in Reds Country.

:(

redsmetz
08-19-2009, 05:42 AM
As I said in the other thread, the truly soul-sucking part of the Willy Taveras debacle is that he's actually been WORSE than advertised. He's on pace to set career lows in virtually every offensive category worth counting -- including OBP and SLG.

Most fans were prepared for Willy Taveras to be terrible, but I don't think there are many here who predicted this level of terrible for him.

I accepted in the beginning that the club's coaching staff believed they saw something that was fixable. Clearly that was a mistake and the sooner that both Jocketty and Baker final admit that will be a good day. I turned the game off in disgust after Taveras faux pas and have lamented every stinking pop up over the last month. I'm a fairly amiable person and would never wish ill on someone, but McCoy is right that they can superglue Willy to the bench, period. As a ballplayer, WT is worthless.

Ltlabner
08-19-2009, 05:51 AM
But the havoc? Think of the havoc!

I've said from day one his bat was going to hurt the team, but I thought his defense might at least be moderately acceptable. Nope. That's hurting the team also.

Let Willy T be the case-study in players that not only don't help you win baseball games but also actively cause you to lose them.

Cyclone792
08-19-2009, 05:53 AM
I told everyone here that watching Willy T play defense in person was brutal. His jumps are just plain terrible; he breaks the wrong way on balls over his head and breaks the wrong way on balls hit behind second base. You rarely see it on television, but it's clear and obvious when you're in the box seats. Most every game I've seen in person has included a Willy T debacle in the outfield.

And his offensive game ... self-explanatory.

As I've been saying for months, he's an historically awful player.

reds44
08-19-2009, 06:15 AM
I want to explain to me how TWO teams made it to the World Series with Taveras as their leadoff hitter.

SunDeck
08-19-2009, 06:18 AM
Willy is the funniest running joke in MLB right now.

I'm having trouble laughing at that one.

mth123
08-19-2009, 06:37 AM
I want to explain to me how TWO teams made it to the World Series with Taveras as their leadoff hitter.

Well, the Rockies made him a part time player down the stretch and went with Ryan Spilborghs in CF a lot in the second half (and he put up an .848 OPS with 11 bombs in 264 ABS). It was when Willy was demoted to part time player that the Rockies hot streak began and the part time role also resulted in Willy being less expsosed and him having his career year.

The Astros had Oswalt, Clemens and Pettitte in the rotation and had career years from Morgan Ensberg and Jason Lane. Willy had an OPS of .666 and the 'stros were just strong enough to compensate.

Edskin
08-19-2009, 06:43 AM
My brother-in-law and I went to two Reds-Royals games in KC this year. The only thing I really enjoyed about watching those games was laughing at Wily T. Sometimes, it's just better to laugh than to cry.

RedsBaron
08-19-2009, 06:44 AM
The sad thing is we all could see this coming but Bob, Walt and Dusty thought it was a good move to sign him, and to rub salt into the wound they still run him out there every night batting at the top of the order.

That should scare or depress the hell outta everyone in Reds Country.

:(

That's just it. I understand that some trades and signings don't work out, but in the case of Taveras EVERYBODY except Bob, Walt and Dusty KNEW that acquiring Taveras was a stupid move, but the Reds did it anyway.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-19-2009, 06:49 AM
That's just it. I understand that some trades and signings don't work out, but in the case of Taveras EVERYBODY except Bob, Walt and Dusty KNEW that acquiring Taveras was a stupid move, but the Reds did it anyway.

I remember several on this board that thought it was a solid acquisition. I also remember several more casual fans, outside this board, that thought it was a good move.

I have also noticed that it's those fans that I've been very consistent in my disagreement with everything Reds related over the years.

Always Red
08-19-2009, 06:58 AM
I told everyone here that watching Willy T play defense in person was brutal. His jumps are just plain terrible; he breaks the wrong way on balls over his head and breaks the wrong way on balls hit behind second base. You rarely see it on television, but it's clear and obvious when you're in the box seats. Most every game I've seen in person has included a Willy T debacle in the outfield.

And his offensive game ... self-explanatory.

As I've been saying for months, he's an historically awful player.

Last night he went straight to his LEFT on a ball hit directly over his head. Well, it wound up over his head, with the route he took to get there.

You're right, of course, and I am afraid they are going to DL him over this leg thing. As for me, I want him in there, every single stinking day, leading off and going 0-5. I'm with you; I want to see just how historically bad he can be.

Ltlabner
08-19-2009, 07:07 AM
That's just it. I understand that some trades and signings don't work out, but in the case of Taveras EVERYBODY except Bob, Walt and Dusty KNEW that acquiring Taveras was a stupid move, but the Reds did it anyway.

I wouldn't say "everybody" knew. There were some, even here on RZ, who strenuously defended his acquisition.

Ltlabner
08-19-2009, 07:08 AM
I want to explain to me how TWO teams made it to the World Series with Taveras as their leadoff hitter.

Didn't those same two World Series bound teams drop Willy T soon after their trips to the Fall Classics?

cumberlandreds
08-19-2009, 07:18 AM
And holy cahooties. That's a new one! :lol:

Yes,a player has to be bad to be taken to task like McCoy did to Taveras. And its all true. Just another in a long line of wretched signing by the Reds.

cincrazy
08-19-2009, 07:35 AM
So you're saying there's a reason the Rockies let this guy go?

GET OUTTA HERE MAN!

cincrazy
08-19-2009, 07:37 AM
I want to explain to me how TWO teams made it to the World Series with Taveras as their leadoff hitter.

I think the year in Colorado he had the OBP of like .360 or so. That has to go down as the luckiest season in the history of major league baseball. Jimmy Haynes is more likely to come back RIGHT NOW and win 15 games again, than Willy is of ever duplicating that season.

Roy Tucker
08-19-2009, 08:00 AM
So, realistically speaking, what do the Reds do with this guy? I think we know who he is now.

Does Dusty keep on putting him in CF high up in the lineup? Does he get sat down for the kids in Sept.? Do they make plas for him to the starting CF for 2010? Or do they say so long and thanks for all the fish and DFA him?

Watching WT makes me think that Corey Patterson wasn't all that bad. What desperation us Reds fans have sunk to when a thought like that enters my brain?

bucksfan2
08-19-2009, 08:28 AM
Willy seems like a nice guy and all, but he's easily the worst player I have ever seen.

I really don't care if he is a nice guy or not. I will take a team full of a holes if it means they win. Just as long as they don't move next to me or live in my neighborhood I am fine with it.

I was wrong with Willy T. I thought he stood a chance to be an asset to this team if he could put up a .350 OBP throughout the season. I didn't expect him to be this god awful. I didn't expect him to be one of the worst players in baseball this season. (OBM I still contend Jason LaRue was the worst player I have ever seen.)

I should have realized that it was a disaster back in spring training. I was listening to a game and Marty made a comment about how Willy T pops the ball up too much for his liking. I have been underwhelmed by his speed. Unless he has been dealing with nagging injuries all season long he looks about a step slower than advertising. He has had many boarder line infield hits in which the defender makes a good pay and gets Willy by a step. He would hit a slow roller that I thought would be a base hit but Willy would get thrown out by a step or two.

In general I have liked what Walt has done to this team. Willy T was his biggest mistake, whether or not that edict came from Dusty and Bob we will never know. Dusty was able to talk his way to Corey Patterson so I could see Dusty talking his way to Willy T on his team. Willy T needs to go and he shouldn't play every day in CF, he should hit 8th when he does play, and he should be used sporadically in PH duties.

Giving Dusty a player like Willy T is akin to giving an alcoholic a drink. He just can't get past what he should be as to what he really is. Dusty is probably one of the only managers who would continue to pencil Willy into the 1 or 2 hole every day when there are 3 better options at CF in the organization.

OldXOhio
08-19-2009, 08:46 AM
I really don't care if he is a nice guy or not. I will take a team full of a holes if it means they win. Just as long as they don't move next to me or live in my neighborhood I am fine with it.

I was wrong with Willy T. I thought he stood a chance to be an asset to this team if he could put up a .350 OBP throughout the season. I didn't expect him to be this god awful. I didn't expect him to be one of the worst players in baseball this season. (OBM I still contend Jason LaRue was the worst player I have ever seen.)

I should have realized that it was a disaster back in spring training. I was listening to a game and Marty made a comment about how Willy T pops the ball up too much for his liking. I have been underwhelmed by his speed. Unless he has been dealing with nagging injuries all season long he looks about a step slower than advertising. He has had many boarder line infield hits in which the defender makes a good pay and gets Willy by a step. He would hit a slow roller that I thought would be a base hit but Willy would get thrown out by a step or two.

In general I have liked what Walt has done to this team. Willy T was his biggest mistake, whether or not that edict came from Dusty and Bob we will never know. Dusty was able to talk his way to Corey Patterson so I could see Dusty talking his way to Willy T on his team. Willy T needs to go and he shouldn't play every day in CF, he should hit 8th when he does play, and he should be used sporadically in PH duties.

Giving Dusty a player like Willy T is akin to giving an alcoholic a drink. He just can't get past what he should be as to what he really is. Dusty is probably one of the only managers who would continue to pencil Willy into the 1 or 2 hole every day when there are 3 better options at CF in the organization.

Contracts like WT's are what got Walt's predecessor fired...allegedly. Will be interesting to see how much rope Walt is given re: possible future bad deals.

I(heart)Freel
08-19-2009, 08:53 AM
I used to think we could send him away in the off season to a team that could use a pinch-runner/fourth outfielder, as long as we added about $2 mill in salary relief.

I no longer think $2 mill will do it.

Ugh.

Kc61
08-19-2009, 09:02 AM
FWIW I thought McCoy shouldn't have challenged WT's trot to first. From the replay he was grimacing and it seemed he was legitimately hurting. One thing WT does is run hard to first base.

Here's my question, though. For all the constant anguish and focus on this player, and now Hal's statement about him, why doesn't the media publicly raise the issue with management?

You have a player who has received more negative fan comment than perhaps any player in world history. He has had a terrible season and continues to hit top of the order. He plays virtually always without change. He is due $4 million next year.

Why doesn't the media specifically address this with management in a public forum and demand a response?

I don't expect Walt to candidly bash a player in public. But it would be good to know, for example, that it is a matter of concern that is being looked at. Or, it would interesting to know if the Reds somehow aren't concerned.

This is such a major issue for fans, the team should have to address it. Unless I've just missed it.

nate
08-19-2009, 09:07 AM
I told everyone here that watching Willy T play defense in person was brutal. His jumps are just plain terrible; he breaks the wrong way on balls over his head and breaks the wrong way on balls hit behind second base. You rarely see it on television, but it's clear and obvious when you're in the box seats. Most every game I've seen in person has included a Willy T debacle in the outfield.

And his offensive game ... self-explanatory.

As I've been saying for months, he's an historically awful player.

For a change, they showed an excellent shot of the replay from right behind homeplate. You see the ball hit and Willy breaks to his LEFT rather than BACK.

I'm with CE, I thought he'd at least be Corey Patterson lite on D. Instead, he's Corey Patterson lite on O and (someone who'd be really bad at D in CF, hopefully with a funny name that I can't think of but I bet WOY can come up with someone named "Happy" who played in the 50's).

Chip R
08-19-2009, 09:14 AM
FWIW I thought McCoy was unfair challenging WT's trot to first. From the replay he was grimacing and it seemed he was legitimately hurting. One thing WT does is run hard to first base.

I'd grimace too if I hit a ball like that.


Here's my question, though. For all the constant anguish and focus on this player, and now Hal's statement about him, why doesn't the media publicly raise the issue with management?

You have a player who has received more negative fan comment than perhaps any player in world history. He has had a terrible season and continues to hit top of the order. He plays virtually always without change. He is due $4 million next year.

Why doesn't the media specifically address this with management in a public forum and demand a response?

I don't expect Walt to candidly bash a player in public. But it would be good to know, for example, that it is a matter of concern that is being looked at. Or, it would interesting to know if the Reds somehow aren't concerned.

This is such a major issue for fans, the team should have to address it. Unless I've just missed it.

We aren't unique to having players on our team that make a lot of money and play like crap. You think beat writers want to jeopardize their jobs by going all Mike Wallace on management? Hal is gone after the end of the year so he can say pretty much what he wants.

Kc61
08-19-2009, 09:17 AM
I'd grimace too if I hit a ball like that.



We aren't unique to having players on our team that make a lot of money and play like crap. You think beat writers want to jeopardize their jobs by going all Mike Wallace on management? Hal is gone after the end of the year so he can say pretty much what he wants.


I thought the writers were trying to satisfy their reader audiences. This is what I want to know, the subject I would like discussed -- along with most Reds fans.

In a tactful way, the question should be asked.

flyer85
08-19-2009, 09:19 AM
Willy T injured ... Dusty and Walt probably couldn't sleep last night

bucksfan2
08-19-2009, 09:26 AM
I thought the writers were trying to satisfy their reader audiences. This is what I want to know, the subject I would like discussed -- along with most Reds fans.

In a tactful way, the question should be asked.

It really goes to show what type of beat writers this area has.

Highlifeman21
08-19-2009, 09:27 AM
Willy T injured ... Dusty and Walt probably couldn't sleep last night

The Dusty will personally nurse Willy T back to health.

I(heart)Freel
08-19-2009, 09:33 AM
I thought the writers were trying to satisfy their reader audiences. This is what I want to know, the subject I would like discussed -- along with most Reds fans.

In a tactful way, the question should be asked.

Tell that to the Bengals beat writer who got the boot for antagonizing Marvin too much.

FWIW, some writers have at least asked Dusty about these decisions (since it's his lineup card to make). He's been dismissive every time the question is asked, just as he was last year with CPatt.

redsmetz
08-19-2009, 09:44 AM
Tell that to the Bengals beat writer who got the boot for antagonizing Marvin too much.

FWIW, some writers have at least asked Dusty about these decisions (since it's his lineup card to make). He's been dismissive every time the question is asked, just as he was last year with CPatt.

Last year, he stopped batting Patterson lead off for the most part after he was sent to AAA. After he returned due to whichever injury short circuited his demotion, he only batted lead off less than ten times, if I recall. I think Dusty (and Walt) have basically "stuck to their story" about Taveras, the rational that brought him here in the first place. Certainly Baker makes the lineup card up, but it's my opinion that this is a Jocketty/Baker decision that neither seems to want to walk back from. But that's just conjecture on my part.

nate
08-19-2009, 09:51 AM
It really goes to show what type of beat writers this area has.

And teams!

westofyou
08-19-2009, 10:00 AM
You have a player who has received more negative fan comment than perhaps any player in world history.

Go on.....

http://www.red-hot-mama.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/patterson_fail.jpg

Razor Shines
08-19-2009, 10:14 AM
The Dusty will personally nurse Willy T back to health.

Dusty lactates?

BCubb2003
08-19-2009, 10:18 AM
Go on.....

http://www.red-hot-mama.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/patterson_fail.jpg

I'm not sure if we're talking counting stats or percentages, but the leaderboard of whipping boys would be Griffey, Dunn, Graves, and Milton.

Sea Ray
08-19-2009, 10:19 AM
His OPS is sub .500 over the last 3 months.

And he hasn't batted lower than 2nd.


Chew on that for awhile.

You've focused on the problem. The mistake of signing him is already done and that's on WJ and Cast. Dusty, by continung to play him and hit him high in the order, is compounding the error unnecessarily. He literally brings nothing to the table for this team. His fielding is not much better than his hitting. This continues to reflect very badly on Dusty. When he gets fired this will be one of the top reasons why. We all feared he'd unnecessarily hang onto veterans and after the Corey P experience of last year I'd say we've identified a pattern.

Sea Ray
08-19-2009, 10:26 AM
So, realistically speaking, what do the Reds do with this guy? I think we know who he is now.




You cut him. It was a huge mistake to sign him and playing him only compounds that mistake

Falls City Beer
08-19-2009, 10:27 AM
Hal, always a day late to the lynchings.

nate
08-19-2009, 10:28 AM
Go on.....

http://www.red-hot-mama.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/patterson_fail.jpg

An avatar waiting to happen.

Chip R
08-19-2009, 10:31 AM
Dusty lactates?


Dude. :eek:

westofyou
08-19-2009, 10:33 AM
I'm not sure if we're talking counting stats or percentages, but the leaderboard of whipping boys would be Griffey, Dunn, Graves, and Milton.

Yeah, calling WT the most beaten player ever on RZ is a complete living in the moment thought

Kc61
08-19-2009, 10:38 AM
You've focused on the problem. The mistake of signing him is already done and that's on WJ and Cast. Dusty, by continung to play him and hit him high in the order, is compounding the error unnecessarily. He literally brings nothing to the table for this team. His fielding is not much better than his hitting. This continues to reflect very badly on Dusty. When he gets fired this will be one of the top reasons why. We all feared he'd unnecessarily hang onto veterans and after the Corey P experience of last year I'd say we've identified a pattern.

Not buying it. Guy has a .273 OBP and keeps hitting at or near the top of the order game after game.

No way Walt is just leaving this decision to Baker.

These guys made a decision to try Taveras until Stubbs is ready. They figured two years. One of their guys said he could be effective with the right coaching. Walt and Dusty bought into it. He was within their limited budget.

Just speculating, but Walt must be telling Dusty to keep following the Taveras plan. And if the time comes that they terminate this plan, it will be Walt saying "enough."

This is too big an item for Walt to be hands off. IMO.

mbgrayson
08-19-2009, 10:44 AM
The other part of the whole Willy Taveras fiasco that I wonder about is scouting. Didn't we have scouting reports on the guy that addressed his defense? Certainly the defensive metrics available on the internet were not very good, but the photo above hits the nail on the head...

As much as still playing Willy after such an abysmal year reflects on Dusty(and WJ), the fact that we keep acquiring guys like C.Patterson and Willy T. also reflects badly on scouting and the front office in general. It shows we need a new focus on stats, or sabermetrics, or something else. There should have been such strongly negative reports on Taveras that Walt would have been deterred from signing him.

That is what is ultimately so depressing about the Willy T. situation....it shows such deep and thorough ineptitude from Willy T. all the way up to the owner that I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel, and every time I think I do it just turns out to be another train.

Kc61
08-19-2009, 10:53 AM
That is what is ultimately so depressing about the Willy T. situation....it shows such deep and thorough ineptitude from Willy T. all the way up to the owner that I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel, and every time I think I do it just turns out to be another train.

Remember the context. WT was a non-tendered free agent picked up after the Reds, for budgetary reasons, passed on all the major free agents. And refused to trade for anyone with a salary.

WT was a long-shot pickup by guys looking for bargains in a recessionary year. The odds on guys like that are low. There's a reason he was let go by other teams.

If you are constantly looking for cheap alternatives, you are by definition always trying to "fix" guys and the failure rate will be high.

Yes, great coaching might have brought a better result. But the main problem is the pattern of buying only the leftover players in the off-season.

flyer85
08-19-2009, 10:55 AM
There's a reason he was let go by other teams.
and not just any team, but a team where his supposed "skill set" was as good a match as there could have been. If Willy T was going to succeed anywhere it would have been as a Rockie. He failed in what should have been the perfect environment for him ... somehow the Reds missed all that.

Sea Ray
08-19-2009, 10:59 AM
Not buying it. Guy has a .273 OBP and keeps hitting at or near the top of the order game after game.

No way Walt is just leaving this decision to Baker.

These guys made a decision to try Taveras until Stubbs is ready. They figured two years. One of their guys said he could be effective with the right coaching. Walt and Dusty bought into it. He was within their limited budget.

Just speculating, but Walt must be telling Dusty to keep following the Taveras plan. And if the time comes that they terminate this plan, it will be Walt saying "enough."

This is too big an item for Walt to be hands off. IMO.

If your theory is correct then you have to also be of the opinion that Walt was telling Dusty to continue to play Corey last year and I'm not sure that's the case.

edabbs44
08-19-2009, 10:59 AM
Remember the context. WT was a non-tendered free agent picked up after the Reds, for budgetary reasons, passed on all the major free agents. And refused to trade for anyone with a salary.

WT was a long-shot pickup by guys looking for bargains in a recessionary year. The odds on guys like that are low. There's a reason he was let go by other teams.

If you are constantly looking for cheap alternatives, you are by definition always trying to "fix" guys and the failure rate will be high.

Yes, great coaching might have brought a better result. But the main problem is the pattern of buying only the leftover players in the off-season.

I think you are correct. The scraps have been where Cincy has fed over the past few years, with the exception of their closer.

edabbs44
08-19-2009, 10:59 AM
If your theory is correct then you have to also be of the opinion that Walt was telling Dusty to continue to play Corey last year and I'm not sure that's the case.

Walt didn't sign Corey.

puca
08-19-2009, 11:00 AM
The depressing thing is how many on RedZone had this acquistion nailed at the time: vastly overrated defensely, unmitigated disaster offensively. On top of that he was moving into a home park that would actually supress what limited offensive ability he had.

flyer85
08-19-2009, 11:02 AM
Walt didn't sign Corey.Wayne did and IIRC he implied that he was told to sign CP

Sea Ray
08-19-2009, 11:03 AM
Walt didn't sign Corey.

So what? The principle is the same. Play duds and don't promote others who can do better. Is your argument that Walt's pushing a plan or is it that he's pushing players he's signed?

edabbs44
08-19-2009, 11:05 AM
So what? The principle is the same. Play duds and don't promote others who can do better. Is your argument that Walt's pushing a plan or is it that he's pushing players he's signed?

I think that it is human nature to give more rope to guys that you are on the hook for.

flyer85
08-19-2009, 11:07 AM
I think that it is human nature to give more rope to guys that you are on the hook for.which is why I expect to see Willy T patrolling CF next year.

2009 was an off year ... he will bounce back in 2010 :runawaycr

Always Red
08-19-2009, 11:08 AM
Remember the context. WT was a non-tendered free agent picked up after the Reds, for budgetary reasons, passed on all the major free agents. And refused to trade for anyone with a salary.

WT was a long-shot pickup by guys looking for bargains in a recessionary year. The odds on guys like that are low. There's a reason he was let go by other teams.



And then, even with having this leverage, the Reds gave him a 2 year deal.

I can almost understand one year (OK, maybe not- I would have gone with Dickerson in CF), but the 2 year deal is what WK would have done, and what ultimately got him fired, IMO (throwing mult-year deals at dreck).

Sea Ray
08-19-2009, 11:09 AM
The depressing thing is how many on RedZone had this acquistion nailed at the time: vastly overrated defensely, unmitigated disaster offensively. On top of that he was moving into a home park that would actually supress what limited offensive ability he had.

RZ couldn't have been more right about this guy.

It's been argued that he could be the most maligned guy in RZ history but the amazing thing is I don't even think RZ thought he'd have an OBP of .273 in late August.

Willy did the impossible. He underperformed RZ's historically low expectations

flyer85
08-19-2009, 11:09 AM
(throwing mult-year deals at dreck).
The Reds didn't see it that way. They thought they had a potential steal which is why they offered a 2 year deal.

nate
08-19-2009, 11:10 AM
I think that it is human nature to give more rope to guys that you are on the hook for.

Then the world is in danger of a rope shortage.

Spring~Fields
08-19-2009, 11:11 AM
Walt didn't sign Corey.

That's his point. Krivsky brought in Patterson, Jocketty brought in Tevaras, but they brought them in for one that wanted that speed in CF and leadoff so badly. We know who that was.

Someone wanted Patterson, and insisted on batting him where he did with his speed in CF, once committing to that decision to obtain him, he escalated in commitment to keep him playing in an attempt to justify his demands and desires to have that player. Then when that failed he turned around and replayed his same beliefs, with Willy Tevaras, another failed thought, belief, etc. It fails because this someone ignores on base percentage in these speed gifted, but hitting challenged players. We all know who wants speed, we all know who ignores on base ability at the top of his lineups so consistently and so repeatedly, that it is obvious who wanted Patterson, and Tevaras and who it is that escalates in his commitment to his choice and decision to have them.

Once he did his song and dance with all his rational to obtain these players he was stuck with trying to make the choice and decision appear right is my best guess.

Sea Ray
08-19-2009, 11:12 AM
I think that it is human nature to give more rope to guys that you are on the hook for.

I see your point but a good GM doesn't let that influence his decisions. WJ will be evaluated more by the team's W-L record than anything else and his insistence to play Willy cost him a W last night

Kc61
08-19-2009, 11:19 AM
If your theory is correct then you have to also be of the opinion that Walt was telling Dusty to continue to play Corey last year and I'm not sure that's the case.

Your recollection of the facts is vastly different than mine.

Corey Patterson started off hot for a few weeks. Then he slumped badly.

Eventually, Dusty did not blindly continue to play him. In fact, he was sent down to AAA.

But the Reds were beset with injuries in the outfield. Dickerson, Freel, Hairston, Hopper, all were hurt. And Dunn and Griffey were traded. The outfield was pitiful thin.

Patterson did play a lot in the second half because of these injuries and trades, because there were so few available outfielders. But he very frequently hit at or near the bottom of the lineup, 7th, 8th, even 9th in interleague games.

Sorry to debunk the myth.

Always Red
08-19-2009, 11:19 AM
The Reds didn't see him that way. They thought they had a potential steal which is why they offered a 2 year deal.

Yet WT was sitting home, released, and to the best of our knowledge, had no other offers.

What do the Reds see in him that others did not?

Highlifeman21
08-19-2009, 11:21 AM
Dusty lactates?

I'm assuming The Dusty has nipples, so according to Robert De Niro in Meet The Parents, theoretically yes.

flyer85
08-19-2009, 11:23 AM
Yet WT was sitting home, released, and to the best of our knowledge, had no other offers.

What do the Reds see in him that others did not?speedy leadoff hitter and CF. The fact that he sucked was ignored or irrelevant (the Reds are obviously smarter than everyone else, they could fix him).

Highlifeman21
08-19-2009, 11:24 AM
Remember the context. WT was a non-tendered free agent picked up after the Reds, for budgetary reasons, passed on all the major free agents. And refused to trade for anyone with a salary.

WT was a long-shot pickup by guys looking for bargains in a recessionary year. The odds on guys like that are low. There's a reason he was let go by other teams.

If you are constantly looking for cheap alternatives, you are by definition always trying to "fix" guys and the failure rate will be high.

Yes, great coaching might have brought a better result. But the main problem is the pattern of buying only the leftover players in the off-season.

Just think of how the RZ contingent would feel had we traded for Willy Taveras, rather than sign him as a free agent...

Sea Ray
08-19-2009, 11:25 AM
Your recollection of the facts is vastly different than mine.

Corey Patterson started off hot for a few weeks. Then he slumped badly.

Eventually, Dusty did not blindly continue to play him. In fact, he was sent down to AAA.

But the Reds were beset with injuries in the outfield. Dickerson, Freel, Hairston, Hopper, all were hurt. And Dunn and Griffey were traded. The outfield was pitiful thin.

Patterson did play a lot in the second half because of these injuries and trades, because there were so few available outfielders. But he very frequently hit at or near the bottom of the lineup, 7th, 8th, even 9th in interleague games.

Sorry to debunk the myth.

Be specific. What myth are you debunking?

Sea Ray
08-19-2009, 11:27 AM
Just think of how the RZ contingent would feel had we traded for Willy Taveras, rather than sign him as a free agent...

Depends on the trade. If it was Willy for Ryan Freel and there was no 2nd yr involved I think RZ would be better with it than what we ended up with

mbgrayson
08-19-2009, 11:32 AM
Sorry to do this, but here are the current stats:

Willy Taveras has 428 plate appearances, and is hitting .238/.273/.284 for an OPS of .557. He has 1 HR, and an OPS+ of 45.

Corey Patterson last year had a total of 392 PAs, and an OPS+ of 48, and a VORP of -18.9.

These are historically bad numbers....

Kc61
08-19-2009, 11:35 AM
Be specific. What myth are you debunking?

That Patterson was played and led off constantly in 2008because of Dusty Baker's misjudgment of his talent and when there were better alternatives available for CF. That's the myth.

Spring~Fields
08-19-2009, 11:35 AM
Your recollection of the facts is vastly different than mine.

Corey Patterson started off hot for a few weeks. Then he slumped badly.

Eventually, Dusty did not blindly continue to play him. In fact, he was sent down to AAA.

But the Reds were beset with injuries in the outfield. Dickerson, Freel, Hairston, Hopper, all were hurt. And Dunn and Griffey were traded. The outfield was pitiful thin.

Patterson did play a lot in the second half because of these injuries and trades, because there were so few available outfielders. But he very frequently hit at or near the bottom of the lineup, 7th, 8th, even 9th in interleague games.

Sorry to debunk the myth.

Is it a myth that one continues for two straight years to give guys with speed and a low ability to get on base the highest number of PA and AB?

Is it a myth that we have seen one almost superstitiously have the CF and SS bat one two respectively even when some of those players show a history "on the back of their baseball cards" as being a lesser talent and obviously not players to give the most PA and AB to? When you constantly neuter your lineups ability to get on base and to score runs, you run a very good risk of creating a negative group synergy.

Is it a myth that after these ability to get on base challenged players are exposed with offensive weaknesses once again, just like the historical stats have show "on the back of their baseball cards", is it a myth that one continues to insist on batting them high in his choice of offensive strategies?

Highlifeman21
08-19-2009, 11:40 AM
Depends on the trade. If it was Willy for Ryan Freel and there was no 2nd yr involved I think RZ would be better with it than what we ended up with

But then I shutter to think who would have been our C since that negates Hernandez, and the Reds have only lukewarmly embraced Hanigan.

Freel for Willy is just debits and credits on a general ledger. Send an overpaid player to a team only to receive a slightly less underpaid player.

Nasty_Boy
08-19-2009, 11:42 AM
Not to let Bob, Walt, or especially Dusty off the hook but didn't Walt & Dusty both credit Jamie Quirk with wanting to bring in Taveras? He's a Dusty type player for sure, but Quirk (who was with Colorado) was said to have "seen" something in Willy's approach that could be "fixed." I'm not at all a Dusty fan or supporter and Walt hasn't started off to great for my liking... But you are supposed to be able to trust the guys around you that have made evaluations. So if Quirk is making evaluations and Walt or Dusty can't see enough to not back his opinion... This team is really in trouble.

WMR
08-19-2009, 11:45 AM
This is a results oriented business, right?

Why is 'Jamie Quirk' still drawing paychecks after he failed so miserably at 'fixing' Willy T?

Charles Darwin laughs at the Reds.

THE CINCINNATI REDS: SURVIVAL OF THE UNFITTEST

Spring~Fields
08-19-2009, 11:47 AM
But then I shutter to think who would have been our C since that negates Hernandez, and the Reds have only lukewarmly embraced Hanigan.
Freel for Willy is just debits and credits on a general ledger. Send an overpaid player to a team only to receive a slightly less underpaid player.

They lukewarmly embraced Hanigan and Dickerson while making the decision to go with the more experienced veteran in Patterson, Hernandez, and Tevaras. Their biases for that experienced veteran caused them to under asses Hanigan and Dickerson. Just like their bias keeps a Phillips at cleanup hitting in the name of having a right handed bat to break up the left handed batters. Just like their bias causes them to opt for speed and giving that speed the most at bats and plates opportunities while their bias causes them to ignore the inability to get to first base, let alone on base to utilize that speed.

Cyclone792
08-19-2009, 11:59 AM
This is a results oriented business, right?

Why is 'Jamie Quirk' still drawing paychecks after he failed so miserably at 'fixing' Willy T?

Charles Darwin laughs at the Reds.

THE CINCINNATI REDS: SURVIVAL OF THE UNFITTEST

Your guess is as good as mine why Quirk is still around. It's certainly mind-boggling though.

What's funny is there are frequently arguments around here on the importance of stats vs. scouts, where the balance should be, where the balance actually is, etc. But what's clear to me is:

1) The Reds blow at advanced statistical analysis
2) The Reds blow at advanced scouting analysis

Forget where we think the balance should be; it doesn't matter because the Reds just suck at both.

And in order for this organization to improve on the scouting spectrum, somebody's going to have to take the rotten BBQ (Bavasi, Bonifay and Quirk) out to the dumpster.

Chip R
08-19-2009, 12:00 PM
What's funny is there are frequently arguments around here on the importance of stats vs. scouts, where the balance should be, where the balance actually is, etc. But what's clear to me is:

1) The Reds blow at advanced statistical analysis
2) The Reds blow at advanced scouting analysis


:notworthy:clap::beerme:

fearofpopvol1
08-19-2009, 12:01 PM
honest question...will Walt/BCast make the right move and DFA Willy before the start of the '10 season?

Sea Ray
08-19-2009, 12:05 PM
But then I shutter to think who would have been our C since that negates Hernandez, and the Reds have only lukewarmly embraced Hanigan.

Freel for Willy is just debits and credits on a general ledger. Send an overpaid player to a team only to receive a slightly less underpaid player.

You can't bring Hernandez into this. I just pulled Freel's name out of the air. If he was traded for Willy we never would have known Hernandez was a possibility.

flyer85
08-19-2009, 12:06 PM
honest question...will Walt/BCast make the right move and DFA Willy before the start of the '10 season?IMO the only scenario for his DFA would be firing Dusty and hiring a new manager who was adamant about not wanting any part of Willy T.

Highlifeman21
08-19-2009, 12:09 PM
You can't bring Hernandez into this. I just pulled Freel's name out of the air. If he was traded for Willy we never would have known Hernandez was a possibility.

Sure I can.

Had Freel ended up a Rockie, and Taveras a Red via trade, that means that we were still left with a catching vacancy.

Therefore, we don't know who that catcher would have been. It still could have been Hernandez.

savafan
08-19-2009, 12:15 PM
Freel has been let go by 3 different teams this season, while Taveras is still a Red. Not that one has anything to do with the other, but it makes me shake my head...

Kc61
08-19-2009, 12:16 PM
Is it a myth that one continues for two straight years to give guys with speed and a low ability to get on base the highest number of PA and AB?

Is it a myth that we have seen one almost superstitiously have the CF and SS bat one two respectively even when some of those players show a history "on the back of their baseball cards" as being a lesser talent and obviously not players to give the most PA and AB to? When you constantly neuter your lineups ability to get on base and to score runs, you run a very good risk of creating a negative group synergy.

Is it a myth that after these ability to get on base challenged players are exposed with offensive weaknesses once again, just like the historical stats have show "on the back of their baseball cards", is it a myth that one continues to insist on batting them high in his choice of offensive strategies?

I've explained the Patterson situation. You know the Taveras situation.

Yes, it is a myth that Dusty always hits the centerfielder first and the shortstop second. For example, Corey Patterson played only CF last year. He led off only 35 times out of 135 games played. He hit 7th-9th in the order 72 times. Just recently Dusty's been hitting Dickerson lead off, a RF, and Taveras second when both healthy. Neither is a shortstop.

And while it is true that he hits low OBP players at the top of the lineup, perhaps you should focus on the front office decision to load the team up with them. Look at the OBPs for Taveras, Gonzalez, Nix, Bruce, Janish, Rosales, Tatum, Hairston. I could go on.

What Dusty has declined to do is to take a slow running catcher or one of his few power hitters and hit them high in the order. You can debate that if you wish but the team is OBP challenged generally.

If you want to continue the anti-Dusty rant, feel free, I've said my peace.

Spring~Fields
08-19-2009, 12:23 PM
I see your point but a good GM doesn't let that influence his decisions. WJ will be evaluated more by the team's W-L record than anything else and his insistence to play Willy cost him a W last night

So won't Mr. Baker "be evaluated more by the team's W-L".

If your position, your job, your career was being critiqued, assessed and judged by performance outcomes and results, if those outcomes and results were called runs scored, along with wins and losses, would you want to choose your own people that matched up best with your theories on how to best achieve your goals?

Would you prefer personnel and player resources that have experience and that have shown some ability to perform at the higher level or would you want the inexperienced with an alleged promising future?

Remembering all that comes with the growth and development of the inexperienced players? Especially if you are being judged and assessed by the performance outcomes that you are accountable for? Would there be risk adversity with the inexperienced major league players with future potential? Could that possibly impact your career? Would you be acutely aware of that which can adversely impact your career? Would that effect your decision making?

If one is so determined that he must have speed in CF for defense and that speed leading off and batting second to score those runs and to get those wins, wouldnít it follow that one would be compelled to stick with their choices, decisions and plan? If I pay attention to those players inability to get on base, then I would have to abandon my quest for speed with those specific players at the top of my offensive strategy, thus negating my choice and decision to obtain those specific players with speed. I also would have to admit that I was wrong, and that my choice, my decision had negative consequences for the organization. That would not look good, on who?

OldXOhio
08-19-2009, 12:25 PM
honest question...will Walt/BCast make the right move and DFA Willy before the start of the '10 season?

The phrase "right thing" only applies in certain situations for the ever revolving Reds brass. The fact Willy T has survived to this point makes me think his isn't one of them.

Tom Servo
08-19-2009, 12:27 PM
People were wondering before about the Reds fans consesis of signing Taveras, here is the poll asking the ORG if the Reds should sign Willy T (If there was one asking if it was a good signing, I can't locate it).


http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73156

flyer85
08-19-2009, 12:28 PM
The phrase "right thing" only applies in certain situations for the ever revolving Reds brass. The fact Willy T has survived to this point makes me think his isn't one of them.the one constant through the last two years awful choices for CF is the manager. I have little doubt that Dusty was the driving force behind the speedy CF leadoff scenario. Unless Dusty goes I don't see the need for that type of player going away. Dusty is not going to change and he is comfortable using his anecdotal evidence to drive decision making.

WMR
08-19-2009, 12:30 PM
People were wondering before about the Reds fans consesis of signing Taveras, here is the poll asking the ORG if the Reds should sign Willy T (If there was one asking if it was a good signing, I can't locate it).


http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73156

11larkin11, alexad, Az Red, Bob Borkowski, Buckeye33, bucksfan2, Degenerate39, hebroncougar, Hooligan, icehole3, indy_dave00, Joseph, Krusty, lollipopcurve, Marty and Joe, max venable, penantboundreds, Playadlc, Puffy, RedLegSuperStar, REDREAD, Redsfaithful, redsfan4445, schroomytunes, vic715, Wheelhouse, Will M, _Sir_Charles_

All these people, report to the principal's office please for your corporal punishment.

Spring~Fields
08-19-2009, 12:34 PM
I've explained the Patterson situation. You know the Taveras situation.

Yes, it is a myth that Dusty always hits the centerfielder first and the shortstop second. For example, Corey Patterson played only CF last year. He led off only 35 times out of 135 games played. He hit 7th-9th in the order 72 times. Just recently Dusty's been hitting Dickerson lead off, a RF, and Taveras second when both healthy. Neither is a shortstop.


I am sorry that we left that opened for you to choose to come back with the words "always". So we know that is false.



And while it is true that he hits low OBP players at the top of the lineup, perhaps you should focus on the front office decision to load the team up with them. Look at the OBPs for Taveras, Gonzalez, Nix, Bruce, Janish, Rosales, Tatum, Hairston. I could go on.


True the front office is ultimately responsible for the final decisions made and contracts signed that brought this level of talent to the teams as player resources.

We both agree that "he hits low on base percentage players at the top of the lineup", giving them the highest amount of at bats and plate appearences, which adversely effects the players that follows ability to drive in runs which leads to the determination of the winning or losing outcome.

Then it must follow that he and he alone on the majority of occurences has it within his power to choose to bat other players with a higher ability to get on base more often in that one and two slot, and has for whatever belief chosen not to. I suggest that his bias for speed is the compelling reason for that. I would also suggest that those biases can and do contribute to a negative group synergy that can and does adversly impact the teams performances.



What Dusty has declined to do is to take a slow running catcher or one of his few power hitters and hit them high in the order. You can debate that if you wish but the team is OBP challenged generally.

Some research will show that he did that in Chicago with one Corey Patterson, and he did it in Cincinnati last year, and he continued with his belief patterns this year. Period.



If you want to continue the anti-Dusty rant, feel free, I've said my peace.

Another exaggeration. I assume you cannot evade or reconcile the offense and the obvious flaws in his beliefs and strategy. We all have our biases.

flyer85
08-19-2009, 12:38 PM
All these people, report to the principal's office please for your corporal punishment.
my take is that most of the people that wanted Willy T are simply folks who wanted the Reds to win so badly they were willing to overlook the evidence and hope for the best.

I don't fault them for that ... almost all here are fans who want to see the Reds win.

It is very frustrating that
1) it isn't happening right now
2)there isn't much reason to expect that to change in the near future.

Spring~Fields
08-19-2009, 12:46 PM
the one constant through the last two years awful choices for CF is the manager. I have little doubt that Dusty was the driving force behind the speedy CF leadoff scenario. Unless Dusty goes I don't see the need for that type of player going away. Dusty is not going to change and he is comfortable using his anecdotal evidence to drive decision making.

Correct.
Now the front office could accomplish finding a player with speed that can get on base more effeciently and effectively to serve that managers goal, and then it would probably have a higher chance of working out just fine.

I don't necessarily think that Mr. Baker has to go though.

savafan
08-19-2009, 12:48 PM
Who were Dusty's starting centerfielders with San Francisco and the Cubs?

traderumor
08-19-2009, 12:48 PM
I am sorry that we left that opened for you to choose to come back with the words "always". So we know that is false.



True the front office is ultimately responsible for the final decisions made and contracts signed that brought this level of talent to the teams as player resources.

We both agree that "he hits low on base percentage players at the top of the lineup", giving them the highest amount of at bats and plate appearences, which adversely effects the players that follows ability to drive in runs which leads to the determination of the winning or losing outcome.

Then it must follow that he and he alone on the majority of occurences has it within his power to choose to bat other players with a higher ability to get on base more often in that one and two slot, and has for whatever belief choosen not to. I suggest that his bias for speed is the compelling reason for that. I would also suggest that those biases can and do contribute to a negative group synergy that can and does adversly impact the teams performances.


Some research will show that he did that in Chicago with one Corey Patterson, and he did it in Cincinnati last year, and he continued with his belief patterns this year. Period.



Another exaggeration. I assume you cannot evade or reconcile the offense and the obvious flaws in his beliefs and strategy. We all have our biases.It is not real easy to make out a lineup card that has everybody hitting sixth or lower, which is what the Reds have had all year, save Votto. On a real major league team, there is not one person other than Votto and now Rolen that would be batting above the six hole. And that includes Phillips, Bruce and Dickerson, although I will admit that Dickerson might deserve some leadoff and 2 hole work on a real major league team.

Spring~Fields
08-19-2009, 12:52 PM
honest question...will Walt/BCast make the right move and DFA Willy before the start of the '10 season?

I think that you would have to consider and follow the money trail on that decision. Then you also have the reputations that organizational people who supported the decision to obtain the players, will be wanting to defend their choice.

edabbs44
08-19-2009, 12:57 PM
It is not real easy to make out a lineup card that has everybody hitting sixth or lower, which is what the Reds have had all year, save Votto. On a real major league team, there is not one person other than Votto and now Rolen that would be batting above the six hole. And that includes Phillips, Bruce and Dickerson, although I will admit that Dickerson might deserve some leadoff and 2 hole work on a real major league team.

Dickerson is, at best, a 4th outfielder on a real team.

Cyclone792
08-19-2009, 01:02 PM
Who were Dusty's starting centerfielders with San Francisco and the Cubs?

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68007

Highlifeman21
08-19-2009, 01:03 PM
Who were Dusty's starting centerfielders with San Francisco and the Cubs?

Giants
1993 - Darren Lewis
1994 - Darren Lewis/Willie McGee
1995 - Darren Lewis/Deion Sanders
1996 - Marvin Bernard
1997 - Darryl Hamilton/Marvin Bernard
1998 - Darryl Hamilton/Marvin Bernard
1999 - Marvin Bernard
2000 - Marvin Bernard
2001 - Calvin Murray/Marvin Bernard
2002 - Tsuyoshi Shinjo/Kenny Lofton

Cubs
2003 - Corey Patterson/Kenny Lofton/Tom Goodwin
2004 - Corey Patterson
2005 - Corey Patterson
2006 - Juan Pierre

Highlifeman21
08-19-2009, 01:05 PM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68007

I should really learn to use the search function, rather than putting together something quick and dirty when you've already done the in-depth thesis on The Dusty's CFers.

Spring~Fields
08-19-2009, 01:06 PM
It is not real easy to make out a lineup card that has everybody hitting sixth or lower, which is what the Reds have had all year, save Votto. On a real major league team, there is not one person other than Votto and now Rolen that would be batting above the six hole. And that includes Phillips, Bruce and Dickerson, although I will admit that Dickerson might deserve some leadoff and 2 hole work on a real major league team.

I understand your point of a lack of overall performing talent on this team, how can we not. Though I have not just looked at this years team for patterns. Neither can the offense be blamed in totality for the win loss record. Neither can Mr. Baker be blamed in totality for the consequences that this organization as a whole produces and continues to reap financial rewards from their loyal fans for failure.

redsmetz
08-19-2009, 01:06 PM
11larkin11, alexad, Az Red, Bob Borkowski, Buckeye33, bucksfan2, Degenerate39, hebroncougar, Hooligan, icehole3, indy_dave00, Joseph, Krusty, lollipopcurve, Marty and Joe, max venable, penantboundreds, Playadlc, Puffy, RedLegSuperStar, REDREAD, Redsfaithful, redsfan4445, schroomytunes, vic715, Wheelhouse, Will M, _Sir_Charles_

All these people, report to the principal's office please for your corporal punishment.

I saw I hadn't voted yet, so I registered a "No" - you know, hindsight and all of that.

Spring~Fields
08-19-2009, 01:09 PM
Giants
1993 - Darren Lewis
1994 - Darren Lewis/Willie McGee
1995 - Darren Lewis/Deion Sanders
1996 - Marvin Bernard
1997 - Darryl Hamilton/Marvin Bernard
1998 - Darryl Hamilton/Marvin Bernard
1999 - Marvin Bernard
2000 - Marvin Bernard
2001 - Calvin Murray/Marvin Bernard
2002 - Tsuyoshi Shinjo/Kenny Lofton

Cubs
2003 - Corey Patterson/Kenny Lofton/Tom Goodwin
2004 - Corey Patterson
2005 - Corey Patterson
2006 - Juan Pierre

Interesting list. Are there any correlations in this list?

WMR
08-19-2009, 01:09 PM
If you surround Dusty with a highly talented, veteran squad he is fine. He can manage them however he wants and they will still be very good despite Dusty's less than optimal lineup choices.

It's got to be an 'impossible to screw up' type of roster with Dusty and the Reds are about as far from that as is humanly possible... hence, Dusty's troubling decisions are magnified 1000x and cannot be ignored or even tolerated if the club is going to have any real shot of ever competing if the Front Office did somehow manage to get out of their own way which isn't likely I'll admit.

Spring~Fields
08-19-2009, 01:22 PM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68007

That was excellent work, can you expound upon why you drew your conclusions in that body of work for our edification now?

LoganBuck
08-19-2009, 01:23 PM
Interesting list. Are there any correlations in this list?

If you were to make a list of players you want on your team, none of these guys would be on it?

traderumor
08-19-2009, 01:30 PM
If you surround Dusty with a highly talented, veteran squad he is fine. He can manage them however he wants and they will still be very good despite Dusty's less than optimal lineup choices.

It's got to be an 'impossible to screw up' type of roster with Dusty and the Reds are about as far from that as is humanly possible... hence, Dusty's troubling decisions are magnified 1000x and cannot be ignored or even tolerated if the club is going to have any real shot of ever competing if the Front Office did somehow manage to get out of their own way which isn't likely I'll admit.That is pretty much true of any major league manager, except I don't think they require veterans, but just highly talented squads. Hindsight usually allows us to see that a team winning wasn't the result of some genius manager who got the most out of his players, but that the team was talented. Any manager looks like a buffoon when handed a roster like this.

For example, Bobby Cox cut his teeth with bad Braves' teams, goes to Toronto and starts winning. Did the light suddenly go on in year 2 at Toronto? I think it is more like the Braves were in the shape that the Reds are now when he managed them, then the Blue Jays had their first period of success, neither of which had very much to do with his managerial capabilities. Then he rejoins a well stocked Braves system, and the rest is history. I'm sure Bobby Cox now is much wiser than the Bobby Cox that managed in the late 70s-early 80s with the Braves, but most of the credit goes to what he had to work with, IMO.

Cyclone792
08-19-2009, 01:37 PM
That was excellent work, can you expound upon why you drew your conclusions in that body of work for our edification now?

It was a combination of several interesting factors, namely:

1) teh Dusty's leadoff hitters have historically been below league average despite having better than average teams throughout the majority of his big league career.

2) Center fielders absolutely dominated the list of guys he had leading off.

I think it was 1993 that was the most telling. That was the season the Giants won 100+ games but missed the playoffs by one game. They had an excellent OBP in every spot in the lineup except the leadoff slot where they were beyond awful.

What compounded that problem was Barry Bonds having an historically amazing season. Any type of intelligent manager should be wanting to have as much OBP in front of Bonds as possible, especially in 1993, because the more baserunners in front of a guy like Bonds, the more runs you'll slide across the plate.

Spring~Fields
08-19-2009, 01:39 PM
If you were to make a list of players you want on your team, none of these guys would be on it?

I think some of those would make good contributions in their prime, don't you?

Spring~Fields
08-19-2009, 01:40 PM
It was a combination of several interesting factors, namely:

1) teh Dusty's leadoff hitters have historically been below league average despite having better than average teams throughout the majority of his big league career.

2) Center fielders absolutely dominated the list of guys he had leading off.

I think it was 1993 that was the most telling. That was the season the Giants won 100+ games but missed the playoffs by one game. They had an excellent OBP in every spot in the lineup except the leadoff slot where they were beyond awful.

What compounded that problem was Barry Bonds having an historically amazing season. Any type of intelligent manager should be wanting to have as much OBP in front of Bonds as possible, especially in 1993, because the more baserunners in front of a guy like Bonds, the more runs you'll slide across the plate.

Thank you.

ochre
08-19-2009, 01:54 PM
The other part of the whole Willy Taveras fiasco that I wonder about is scouting. Didn't we have scouting reports on the guy that addressed his defense? Certainly the defensive metrics available on the internet were not very good, but the photo above hits the nail on the head...

As much as still playing Willy after such an abysmal year reflects on Dusty(and WJ), the fact that we keep acquiring guys like C.Patterson and Willy T. also reflects badly on scouting and the front office in general. It shows we need a new focus on stats, or sabermetrics, or something else. There should have been such strongly negative reports on Taveras that Walt would have been deterred from signing him.

That is what is ultimately so depressing about the Willy T. situation....it shows such deep and thorough ineptitude from Willy T. all the way up to the owner that I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel, and every time I think I do it just turns out to be another train.I'm pretty sure the Reds brain trust are convinced that "metrics" are that crap the Canadians invented to screw up American speedometers.

ochre
08-19-2009, 01:58 PM
I accepted in the beginning that the club's coaching staff believed they saw something that was fixable. Clearly that was a mistake and the sooner that both Jocketty and Baker final admit that will be a good day. I turned the game off in disgust after Taveras faux pas and have lamented every stinking pop up over the last month. I'm a fairly amiable person and would never wish ill on someone, but McCoy is right that they can superglue Willy to the bench, period. As a ballplayer, WT is worthless.
I'll be cool with the Reds eventually figuring out that, either, the Major Leagues aren't where they should be trying to "fix" players, or they have the wrong people in place doing the "fixing".

Sea Ray
08-19-2009, 02:01 PM
Sure I can.

Had Freel ended up a Rockie, and Taveras a Red via trade, that means that we were still left with a catching vacancy.

Therefore, we don't know who that catcher would have been. It still could have been Hernandez.

OK so you're saying if the Reds had traded Freel for Willy T RZ would have complained because there was no catcher included in the deal. That sounds pretty far fetched to me

Sea Ray
08-19-2009, 02:03 PM
I've explained the Patterson situation. You know the Taveras situation.

Yes, it is a myth that Dusty always hits the centerfielder first and the shortstop second. For example, Corey Patterson played only CF last year. He led off only 35 times out of 135 games played. He hit 7th-9th in the order 72 times. Just recently Dusty's been hitting Dickerson lead off, a RF, and Taveras second when both healthy. Neither is a shortstop.

And while it is true that he hits low OBP players at the top of the lineup, perhaps you should focus on the front office decision to load the team up with them. Look at the OBPs for Taveras, Gonzalez, Nix, Bruce, Janish, Rosales, Tatum, Hairston. I could go on.

What Dusty has declined to do is to take a slow running catcher or one of his few power hitters and hit them high in the order. You can debate that if you wish but the team is OBP challenged generally.

If you want to continue the anti-Dusty rant, feel free, I've said my peace.


Then what's your explanation for Taveras continuing to hit #1 or #2?

Sea Ray
08-19-2009, 02:06 PM
So won't Mr. Baker "be evaluated more by the team's W-L".



Yes, Dusty should be evaluated by W-L as well. Seeing as this team is only winning a game every 3 or 4 days now Dusty is to blame as well

cincrazy
08-19-2009, 02:31 PM
I really don't care if he is a nice guy or not. I will take a team full of a holes if it means they win. Just as long as they don't move next to me or live in my neighborhood I am fine with it.

I was wrong with Willy T. I thought he stood a chance to be an asset to this team if he could put up a .350 OBP throughout the season. I didn't expect him to be this god awful. I didn't expect him to be one of the worst players in baseball this season. (OBM I still contend Jason LaRue was the worst player I have ever seen.)

I should have realized that it was a disaster back in spring training. I was listening to a game and Marty made a comment about how Willy T pops the ball up too much for his liking. I have been underwhelmed by his speed. Unless he has been dealing with nagging injuries all season long he looks about a step slower than advertising. He has had many boarder line infield hits in which the defender makes a good pay and gets Willy by a step. He would hit a slow roller that I thought would be a base hit but Willy would get thrown out by a step or two.

In general I have liked what Walt has done to this team. Willy T was his biggest mistake, whether or not that edict came from Dusty and Bob we will never know. Dusty was able to talk his way to Corey Patterson so I could see Dusty talking his way to Willy T on his team. Willy T needs to go and he shouldn't play every day in CF, he should hit 8th when he does play, and he should be used sporadically in PH duties.

Giving Dusty a player like Willy T is akin to giving an alcoholic a drink. He just can't get past what he should be as to what he really is. Dusty is probably one of the only managers who would continue to pencil Willy into the 1 or 2 hole every day when there are 3 better options at CF in the organization.

I don't think that Jocketty should be absolved of all blame here. If he's really in a position to where his manager is demanding players be signed and he has little to no choice but to go along with it, he needs to resign immediately.

traderumor
08-19-2009, 02:33 PM
I'll be cool with the Reds eventually figuring out that, either, the Major Leagues aren't where they should be trying to "fix" players, or they have the wrong people in place doing the "fixing".And if "fixing" is the goal, do not put that person at the top of the depth chart in ST.

nate
08-19-2009, 02:44 PM
Then what's your explanation for Taveras continuing to hit #1 or #2?

For sure. Dude has the SECOND MOST PA of anyone on the team.

Eee, by gum!

nate
08-19-2009, 02:45 PM
And if "fixing" is the goal, do not put that person at the top of the depth chart in ST.

Let's be safe and not put him on the depth chart at all during any part of the year.

Unless it's the Cubs' depth chart.

traderumor
08-19-2009, 02:53 PM
Let's be safe and not put him on the depth chart at all during any part of the year.

Unless it's the Cubs' depth chart.And make "fixing" involve converting to pitcher.

Rojo
08-19-2009, 03:00 PM
Any manager looks like a buffoon when handed a roster like this.

Most managers would have a hard time winning with this roster, not sure about "looking like a buffoon".

This is not new stuff with Dusty. Giants fans were complaining about the same thing. There's smoke.

On my Red's fix-it list, replacing Baker is not number #1. But Baker's becoming something you almost have to work around, he's getting less out of less and a team with limited resources needs more.

Ltlabner
08-19-2009, 04:04 PM
2) Center fielders absolutely dominated the list of guys he had leading off.


How can this be? I thought that was a myth?

Highlifeman21
08-19-2009, 04:30 PM
OK so you're saying if the Reds had traded Freel for Willy T RZ would have complained because there was no catcher included in the deal. That sounds pretty far fetched to me

Not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying that we addressed our catching situation by trading Freel to the Orioles for Hernandez, although it essentially was a salary dump by both teams.

Had we traded Freel to the Rockies for Taveras, then you'd have people rightfully up in arms b/c we actually gave up something aside from cash to obtain Mr. Taveras' services. And in the process, we also would have done nothing to address the catching situation. Although, I was surprised to see we addressed the catching situation by trading Freel, but I would have been livid had we traded Freel for Taveras.

Take that back, I would have been livid had we given up anything other than cash to obtain Willy Taveras.

Cyclone792
08-19-2009, 06:00 PM
Hal blasted Willy T again in today's blog update on Stubbs:


Stubbs, the soon-to-be 25 No. 1 draft pick in 2006, was called up from Class AAA Louisville today and inserted into the lineup at leadoff and in center field, the spot occupied most of the year by Willy Taveras, an abject failure at doing what he was brought in to do. Taveras was placed on the disabled list.

Now they’ll see if Stubbs can do what Taveras couldn’t. Stubbs led the International League in stolen bases with 46 in 54 tries.

jojo
08-19-2009, 06:44 PM
My guess is that the sudden outcry against WT from the beat writers probably doesn't happen unless the Reds FO was considering jettisoning WT......

I mean when did the Cincy sports media suddenly grow claws?

Brutus
08-19-2009, 06:49 PM
My guess is that the sudden outcry against WT from the beat writers probably doesn't happen unless the Reds FO was considering jettisoning WT......

I mean when did the Cincy sports media suddenly grow claws?

I considered that. That does make sense.

I also think it might be true that Hal knows he can speak freely now. He's going to be gone soon, so he can be perhaps a little more outspoken than he normally would. I hope, though, that your guess is the right one. Perhaps even the organization realizes the colossal mistake it's been and will be soon cutting ties.

cincrazy
08-19-2009, 06:51 PM
I considered that. That does make sense.

I also think it might be true that Hal knows he can speak freely now. He's going to be gone soon, so he can be perhaps a little more outspoken than he normally would. I hope, though, that your guess is the right one. Perhaps even the organization realizes the colossal mistake it's been and will be soon cutting ties.

What mistake!? We have our speedy centerfielder. Case closed. ;).

Highlifeman21
08-19-2009, 07:01 PM
What mistake!? We have our speedy centerfielder. Case closed. ;).

And he's batting leadoff.

Raisor
08-19-2009, 07:14 PM
11larkin11, alexad, Az Red, Bob Borkowski, Buckeye33, bucksfan2, Degenerate39, hebroncougar, Hooligan, icehole3, indy_dave00, Joseph, Krusty, lollipopcurve, Marty and Joe, max venable, penantboundreds, Playadlc, Puffy, RedLegSuperStar, REDREAD, Redsfaithful, redsfan4445, schroomytunes, vic715, Wheelhouse, Will M, _Sir_Charles_

.


I think the person I'm the most upset with in this list is Puffy.
On the other hand, he was probably confused with "yes" or "no" and probably thought that he was voting for "yes the Reds should not sign Willy".

cincrazy
08-19-2009, 07:17 PM
I think the person I'm the most upset with in this list is Puffy.
On the other hand, he was probably confused with "yes" or "no" and probably thought that he was voting for "yes the Reds should not sign Willy".

Relieved I'm not on the list. This feeling is probably similar to what players who are on the 2003 list are experiencing. Nerve wracking time reading through that list!

Sea Ray
08-20-2009, 09:13 AM
Take that back, I would have been livid had we given up anything other than cash to obtain Willy Taveras.

You're obviously missing my point because you're arguing the particulars of the trade. My point is it depends on the trade as to whether our fans are upset. OK, you didn't like the Freel analogy. I'll give you another one. Let's say we traded TJ Lincoln. Fans would be a lot better off with that than giving him 2 years in a FA deal.

The bottomline is you can't say the fans would like or not like "a trade". It depends on who's involved in the trade before making such a statement.

durl
08-20-2009, 10:27 AM
Just for the record, I defended the Taveras acquisition. The guy had experience on winning teams and I wanted him to have a chance to prove himself before we all started lamenting the signing.

OK. Now it's time to let him go. He had a chance and it's not worked out. On those rare occasions that he gets on base and attempts a steal, I fully expect him to steal the base. I just doubt he'll get on base.

Dusty will move middle-of-the-lineup hitters around based upon performance, but he insists on keeping the "speedy-if-he-ever-gets-on-base" Taveras at the top of the lineup. Since when did speed trump OBP as a qualifier for the top of the lineup?

Why does speed rank at the top of desired traits to some managers?? That's one of my "I just don't understand why..." things about baseball. It's right up there with starting a player because he makes $8 million or so even though there are more productive "cheap" players on the bench.

Highlifeman21
08-20-2009, 12:48 PM
You're obviously missing my point because you're arguing the particulars of the trade. My point is it depends on the trade as to whether our fans are upset. OK, you didn't like the Freel analogy. I'll give you another one. Let's say we traded TJ Lincoln. Fans would be a lot better off with that than giving him 2 years in a FA deal.

The bottomline is you can't say the fans would like or not like "a trade". It depends on who's involved in the trade before making such a statement.

Huh?

We're talking past each other.

I'm saying that it would have been phenomenally awesome had we given up something of substance (other than pile 'o cash) to obtain Willy Taveras.

And then, had we hypothetically given up Freel for Taveras, then we would have been stuck with a catching hole, due to Freel being included in the Hernandez deal (and that wouldn't have happened had we moved Freel for Taveras).

Bottomline, my whole premise is that RZ would have hated Willy Taveras even more if we had given up a player from our organization to obtain him.

My second premise is that had we traded Freel for Taveras, then most likely we wouldn't have obtained Hernandez, and subsequently been stuck with a bad situation for our catching dilemma.

That's it.

RedsManRick
08-20-2009, 02:12 PM
My guess is that the sudden outcry against WT from the beat writers probably doesn't happen unless the Reds FO was considering jettisoning WT......

I mean when did the Cincy sports media suddenly grow claws?

Perhaps those claws grew when said beat writer no longer had to worry about maintaining a relationship with the person whom he was about to eviscerate...

There's a reason why bloggers tend to be much more critical than beat writers. There's an inherent conflict of interest involved in being a beat writer that makes it very difficult for them to do much more than convey the facts as they've been presented. This is particularly true when you're talking about an organization that has historically been borderline paranoid with sharing its reasoning behind its decisions.

dougdirt
08-20-2009, 02:31 PM
There's a reason why bloggers tend to be much more critical than beat writers. There's an inherent conflict of interest involved in being a beat writer that makes it very difficult for them to do much more than convey the facts as they've been presented. This is particularly true when you're talking about an organization that has historically been borderline paranoid with sharing its reasoning behind its decisions.

At the same time, perhaps the organization has been questionable about explaining their reasoning behind their decisions because no one in the Cincinnati media has ever come back with a 'that makes no sense because of ......' question/comment. They have always just said 'oh ok'. Certainly we can question things in a different way because we don't have to worry about having information cut off from us, but at the same time we can't ask questions and get legit answers to them either. I agree there is a line to be walked, but you can ask difficult questions politely and offer rebuttle questions/comments politely. That doesn't happen in Cincinnati for whatever reason.

RedsManRick
08-20-2009, 02:45 PM
At the same time, perhaps the organization has been questionable about explaining their reasoning behind their decisions because no one in the Cincinnati media has ever come back with a 'that makes no sense because of ......' question/comment. They have always just said 'oh ok'. Certainly we can question things in a different way because we don't have to worry about having information cut off from us, but at the same time we can't ask questions and get legit answers to them either. I agree there is a line to be walked, but you can ask difficult questions politely and offer rebuttle questions/comments politely. That doesn't happen in Cincinnati for whatever reason.

I agree. But the approach has to be very careful. Pressing for explanations is one thing. Tearing them apart for those explanations is another. There has been a decided lack of the former.

jojo
08-20-2009, 06:09 PM
Perhaps those claws grew when said beat writer no longer had to worry about maintaining a relationship with the person whom he was about to eviscerate...

There's a reason why bloggers tend to be much more critical than beat writers. There's an inherent conflict of interest involved in being a beat writer that makes it very difficult for them to do much more than convey the facts as they've been presented. This is particularly true when you're talking about an organization that has historically been borderline paranoid with sharing its reasoning behind its decisions.

You're probably closer to the truth. It's easy to imagine writers need to use tact in order to maintain access. It's hard to imagine that the Reds would dump $4M. Then again the Brewers just ate like $10M to get rid of Hall while bragging about the salary relief they got...

Cling to hope....it's my new motto.

Brutus
08-20-2009, 06:45 PM
Perhaps those claws grew when said beat writer no longer had to worry about maintaining a relationship with the person whom he was about to eviscerate...

There's a reason why bloggers tend to be much more critical than beat writers. There's an inherent conflict of interest involved in being a beat writer that makes it very difficult for them to do much more than convey the facts as they've been presented. This is particularly true when you're talking about an organization that has historically been borderline paranoid with sharing its reasoning behind its decisions.

You are correct. But this is also the problem with our culture.

A role of journalist was supposed to be convey the facts and not interject their opinions and bias. As Reds fans, people seem to be rejoicing that Hal is giving his opinion on how lousy the organization has handled matters. In reality, it's not his job, or the job of any beat writer, to convey those thoughts anyhow. Though I absolutely 100% agree that they hold back because they can't step on toes, they should not feel the need to speak up or hold back anyhow - but simply report news in a matter-of-fact manner.

True journalism has gone, and it's sad.

dsmith421
08-20-2009, 08:38 PM
True journalism has gone, and it's sad.

Sorry, but I totally and wholeheartedly disagree. Journalists are not glorified stenographers. If Castellini/Jocketty/Baker lies to Hal's face or says something completely moronic, in my view Hal's within his rights to challenge them. This is how it's done in other markets. It's only Cincinnati, with its toothless cowed media, where writers are scared stupid to write anything critical.

Look at Dustin Dow--he asks 2-3 perfectly reasonable questions of Marvin Lewis and is effectively blackballed from the Bengals beat. It's utterly ridiculous.

Good for Hal. Go out fightin'.

RedsManRick
08-20-2009, 09:07 PM
Sorry, but I totally and wholeheartedly disagree. Journalists are not glorified stenographers. If Castellini/Jocketty/Baker lies to Hal's face or says something completely moronic, in my view Hal's within his rights to challenge them. This is how it's done in other markets. It's only Cincinnati, with its toothless cowed media, where writers are scared stupid to write anything critical.

Look at Dustin Dow--he asks 2-3 perfectly reasonable questions of Marvin Lewis and is effectively blackballed from the Bengals beat. It's utterly ridiculous.

Good for Hal. Go out fightin'.

Put me as in agreement with Brutus. I believe journalists unique role is to be a bearer of facts in as an objective manner as possible. There is certainly a role for commentary on those facts, but precisely because of the conflict I described, it's not really possible for a journalist to be critical. In fact, the bigger problem we see is probably the opposite one -- beat writers taking what they hear as the gospel truth and reporting it as fact without proper context and attribution.

Journalists are trained to gather and present facts. Newspapers and news television in particular wouldn't be in such trouble if they focused more on providing that service well, perhaps pairing it with other people doing commentary, and less on trying to have the same people do both. Instead we get Dan Rather trying to do analysis and John Kruk trying to report what happened in a ballgame....

Hal may be a great reporter. But frankly, I'll read Rob Neyer or Joe Poz if I want an intelligent interpretation. Hal shouldn't have to blow smoke to get access to the front office and shouldn't have his job require him to be critical of them and jeopardize that relationship. Journalists should serve as a neutral middle man. It's a shame they're now doing both -- and neither of them terribly well.

corkedbat
08-20-2009, 10:54 PM
Put me as in agreement with Brutus. I believe journalists unique role is to be a bearer of facts in as an objective manner as possible. There is certainly a role for commentary on those facts, but precisely because of the conflict I described, it's not really possible for a journalist to be critical. In fact, the bigger problem we see is probably the opposite one -- beat writers taking what they hear as the gospel truth and reporting it as fact without proper context and attribution.

Journalists are trained to gather and present facts. Newspapers and news television in particular wouldn't be in such trouble if they focused more on providing that service well, perhaps pairing it with other people doing commentary, and less on trying to have the same people do both. Instead we get Dan Rather trying to do analysis and John Kruk trying to report what happened in a ballgame....

Hal may be a great reporter. But frankly, I'll read Rob Neyer or Joe Poz if I want an intelligent interpretation. Hal shouldn't have to blow smoke to get access to the front office and shouldn't have his job require him to be critical of them and jeopardize that relationship. Journalists should serve as a neutral middle man. It's a shame they're now doing both -- and neither of them terribly well.

You're confusing a columnist with a reporter. I've had my share of disagreements with Hal, but he is a columnist and as such he is supposed to interject his opinion along with the facts and it's always been that way..

Brutus
08-20-2009, 11:04 PM
Sorry, but I totally and wholeheartedly disagree. Journalists are not glorified stenographers. If Castellini/Jocketty/Baker lies to Hal's face or says something completely moronic, in my view Hal's within his rights to challenge them. This is how it's done in other markets. It's only Cincinnati, with its toothless cowed media, where writers are scared stupid to write anything critical.

Look at Dustin Dow--he asks 2-3 perfectly reasonable questions of Marvin Lewis and is effectively blackballed from the Bengals beat. It's utterly ridiculous.

Good for Hal. Go out fightin'.

Back, not too long ago, newspapers used to have a separate column for sports writers or newswriters that simply had a large, bold headline that said "OPINION."

It was in that space that a journalist ventured out of character, out of the realm of collecting and reporting information, and instead interjected thoughts that deviated from the basic role. Look around on the internet. I challenge you to find too many news sites that are labeled this way any more. Sure, you might find the word "column" but the actual word "opinion" has been stripped from the industry. Sometimes it's honestly hard to differentiate columns from news reporting - and that's with the good writers.

The issue is very near and dear to me. As someone that's dabbled in the field as a career, it's disappointing to see the trend of new media. The internet and blogs already started changing the industry. Now Facebook and Twitter are taking the opinionated news reporting and simply taking away further quality in exchange for instantaneous rumor mongering. I have a Twitter account only for professional purposes, as I'm getting back into some freelance work. On one night, a few days before the deadline, I counted seven (7) different reporters that cover baseball make a 'tweet' to something of the affect of "hearing that so-and-so might be traded, checking sous on this now."

Checking sources on this? That's supposed to be done BEFORE you report that information.

I despise the new information revolution. It's destroying any small, hanging fabrics that existed in wholesome news reporting. This is not to berate Hal. On the contrary, I think he's been a beacon of honest journalism. But that Cincinnati fans are rejoicing his recent verbal jousts against the organization is just more reason I think our culture has completely gotten away from the intent of the news media.

RedsManRick
08-20-2009, 11:41 PM
You're confusing a columnist with a reporter. I've had my share of disagreements with Hal, but he is a columnist and as such he is supposed to interject his opinion along with the facts and it's always been that way..

Fair point -- I indeed was focusing on the beat reporter when, as you point out, McCoy is a columnist. I definitely think columnists role is to provide that commentary. And to that point, it's a shame it's taken so long for the teeth to show.