PDA

View Full Version : Walt Jocketty vs. Wayne Krivsky



camisadelgolf
08-19-2009, 08:06 PM
If you look at it in terms of Major League production given up versus production acquired, Wayne Krivsky seems to be doing a better job than Walt Jocketty so far (feel free to peruse the stats below). However, that is not the end-all say-all for how well a GM has done. For example, perhaps one has been better than the other at stocking young talent. Another thing to keep in mind is that Jocketty may have been a bit hamstrung by some of Krivsky's bad decisions (i.e. Corey Patterson, Paul Bako, etc.). Then again, as we all unfortunately know, Jocketty hasn't been flawless either (Willy Taveras, Mike Lincoln, etc.). Anyway, keeping in mind all aspects of being a GM, which one does the ORG prefer?

Players released/traded by Walt Jocketty:

Name G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO HBP SH BA OBP SLG OPS
Ken Griffey Jr. 131 510 436 50 102 25 0 15 58 0 0 69 82 1 0 0.234 0.337 0.394 0.732
Adam Dunn 162 685 548 84 149 34 0 39 112 1 1 131 178 4 0 0.272 0.415 0.547 0.962
Andy Phillips 4 5 5 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.200 0.200 0.200 0.400
Ryan Freel 41 101 88 11 17 2 0 0 5 1 0 11 23 1 1 0.193 0.290 0.216 0.506
Jeff Keppinger 78 259 224 26 60 12 3 3 19 0 2 24 23 3 6 0.268 0.344 0.388 0.732
JerryHairstonJr.16 35 31 5 9 2 0 1 6 0 0 3 2 0 1 0.290 0.353 0.452 0.805
EdwinEncarnacion14 58 54 4 11 2 0 1 3 0 0 2 9 0 0 0.204 0.224 0.296 0.520
Alex Gonzalez 3 12 11 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 1 0.091 0.091 0.182 0.273
Juan Castro 94 267 243 30 59 9 0 3 25 0 0 16 48 1 4 0.243 0.289 0.317 0.606
Dave Ross 47 125 107 15 28 6 0 6 15 0 0 16 34 0 2 0.262 0.358 0.486 0.844
Corey Patterson 5 15 15 0 2 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 6 0 0 0.133 0.133 0.133 0.267
Paul Bako 22 61 57 5 10 2 0 1 5 0 0 3 16 1 0 0.175 0.230 0.263 0.493
TOTALS 617 2133 1819 231 449 95 3 69 248 4 3 275 423 11 15 0.247 0.345 0.416 0.761

David Patton 3 1 17 0 0 0 5 0 24.0 25 16 15 4 15 20 0 2 5.63 1.67
Josh Roenicke 0 0 4 0 0 0 1 0 3.3 5 5 5 0 5 5 0 0 13.50 3.00
Dave Weathers 0 1 4 0 0 0 0 0 3.3 6 6 4 1 4 2 0 0 10.80 3.00
Todd Coffey 5 2 65 0 0 0 15 2 69.0 63 17 17 3 17 59 2 1 2.22 1.16
Jeremy Affeldt 0 1 53 0 0 0 6 0 44.7 30 10 9 1 25 37 1 2 1.81 1.23
Josh Fogg 0 1 19 0 0 0 7 0 37.0 22 9 9 3 14 21 0 0 2.19 0.97
Matt Belisle 1 1 15 0 0 0 2 0 18.3 26 19 17 4 5 12 1 1 8.35 1.69
TOTALS 9 7 177 0 0 0 36 2 199.7 177 82 76 16 85 156 4 6 3.43 1.31

Players acquired by Walt Jocketty:

Name G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO HBP SH BA OBP SLG OPS
Willy Taveras 98 428 395 54 94 11 2 1 15 25 6 18 57 2 11 0.238 0.273 0.284 0.557
Andy Phillips 37 57 52 10 14 2 0 3 6 0 0 4 10 1 0 0.269 0.333 0.481 0.814
Danny Richar 23 46 44 5 10 2 0 0 3 1 0 1 10 0 1 0.227 0.244 0.273 0.517
Wilkin Castillo 22 37 35 6 11 1 0 0 2 0 0 1 5 0 1 0.314 0.333 0.343 0.676
Ramon Hernandez 77 316 273 23 68 12 1 5 36 1 0 32 33 3 4 0.249 0.330 0.355 0.685
Drew Sutton 20 38 36 4 6 2 0 1 4 0 1 2 13 0 0 0.167 0.211 0.306 0.516
Scott Rolen 4 16 14 3 2 1 0 1 2 0 0 1 2 1 0 0.143 0.250 0.429 0.679
WladimirBalntien14 42 36 4 11 1 0 1 5 1 0 6 7 0 0 0.306 0.405 0.417 0.821
Darnell McDonald24 44 40 4 7 0 1 0 1 0 0 3 9 1 0 0.175 0.250 0.225 0.475
Laynce Nix 98 279 255 34 62 24 1 9 32 0 0 19 70 2 0 0.243 0.297 0.451 0.748
Jonny Gomes 64 197 174 25 48 8 0 15 36 1 0 17 59 5 0 0.276 0.355 0.580 0.936
TOTALS 481 1500 1354 172 333 64 5 36 142 29 7 104 275 15 17 0.246 0.304 0.380 0.684

Name W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP ERA WHIP
Nick Masset 5 1 58 0 0 0 10 0 71.0 52 25 21 8 26 59 0 7 2.66 1.10
Micah Owings 6 11 19 18 0 0 1 0 102.7 114 65 61 16 54 61 6 1 5.35 1.64
Justin Lehr 2 0 4 4 1 1 0 0 26.0 25 7 7 1 8 7 1 1 2.42 1.27
Kip Wells 0 1 2 0 0 0 0 0 6.7 6 4 4 0 5 7 0 0 5.40 1.65
Arthur Rhodes 0 1 50 0 0 0 10 0 40.3 27 12 11 3 16 37 1 1 2.45 1.07
TOTALS 13 14 133 22 1 1 21 0 246.7 224 113 104 28 109 171 8 10 3.79 1.35

Players released/traded by Wayne Krivsky:

Name G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO HBP SH BA OBP SLG OPS
Timo Perez 52 131 121 15 41 10 2 1 16 1 1 9 10 1 0 0.339 0.389 0.479 0.869
Wily Mo Pena 258 827 760 88 196 34 3 26 91 2 3 52 232 9 6 0.258 0.313 0.413 0.726
Matt Kata 118 219 208 23 45 10 1 3 21 2 0 5 38 3 2 0.216 0.244 0.317 0.562
Tony Womack 19 57 50 6 14 1 0 1 2 1 1 4 4 0 3 0.280 0.333 0.360 0.693
Terrence Long 12 40 36 6 6 1 0 0 2 0 0 4 8 0 0 0.167 0.250 0.194 0.444
Cody Ross 417 1446 1308 187 346 88 6 65 215 12 3 105 306 22 1 0.265 0.327 0.490 0.817
Austin Kearns 390 1503 1286 177 311 63 4 34 159 7 8 179 270 30 1 0.242 0.346 0.376 0.723
Royce Clayton 77 216 195 24 48 14 0 1 12 2 1 14 53 1 3 0.246 0.296 0.333 0.629
Felipe Lopez 480 2025 1810 239 501 91 13 24 155 59 27 175 327 11 16 0.277 0.342 0.381 0.723
Jason LaRue 162 461 404 38 77 19 1 9 37 2 0 34 100 13 6 0.191 0.273 0.309 0.582
Brendan Harris 363 1424 1287 166 352 80 7 25 138 5 3 102 262 9 15 0.274 0.329 0.405 0.733
Brandon Watson 5 19 18 2 5 1 0 0 2 1 0 1 1 0 0 0.278 0.316 0.333 0.649
Jeff Conine 21 50 41 2 8 2 0 0 5 0 0 7 8 0 1 0.195 0.306 0.244 0.550
Rich Aurilia 289 918 845 83 222 42 3 17 100 1 1 60 123 5 0 0.263 0.313 0.380 0.693
Dewayne Wise 119 268 244 32 55 11 4 8 27 11 3 11 58 4 7 0.225 0.268 0.402 0.670
Josh Hamilton 228 997 890 134 261 50 7 40 171 17 3 86 188 12 0 0.293 0.360 0.500 0.860
Jorge Cantu 264 1155 1057 142 294 70 0 42 162 8 2 74 167 15 0 0.278 0.332 0.464 0.795
Chris Denorfia 33 73 64 11 18 3 0 1 10 2 0 6 16 1 2 0.281 0.352 0.375 0.727
Buck Coats 8 6 5 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 2 0 0 0.200 0.333 0.200 0.533
Jason Ellison 9 14 13 5 3 0 0 0 2 0 0 1 1 0 0 0.231 0.286 0.231 0.516
Jeff Fiorentino 2 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1.000 1.000 1.000 2.000
Ray Olmedo 27 54 51 6 11 4 0 0 1 0 0 2 9 0 1 0.216 0.245 0.294 0.539
Chad Moeller 65 172 155 18 34 10 1 2 12 0 0 10 27 6 0 0.219 0.291 0.335 0.626
TOTALS 3418 12076 10849 1404 2850 604 52 299 1341 134 56 942 2210 142 64 0.263 0.326 0.411 0.736

Name W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP ERA WHIP
Luke Hudson 7 7 27 16 0 0 1 0 104.0 111 67 62 8 42 64 4 6 5.37 1.47
Josh Hancock 3 4 70 0 0 0 19 1 89.7 84 43 40 11 28 59 1 4 4.01 1.25
Mike Venafro 1 0 7 0 0 0 0 0 3.7 3 1 1 0 3 2 0 0 2.45 1.64
Allan Simpson 0 0 2 0 0 0 1 0 2.7 1 2 1 0 4 5 0 1 3.38 1.88
Dave Williams 3 2 8 6 0 0 2 0 33.3 51 29 29 7 9 18 2 2 7.83 1.80
Rick White 4 2 67 0 0 0 17 0 72.0 85 52 48 7 33 41 2 3 6.00 1.64
Travis Chick 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 5.0 7 7 7 0 10 2 0 0 12.60 3.40
Ryan Wagner 3 5 40 0 0 0 7 0 46.3 56 32 26 5 23 29 2 4 5.05 1.71
Mike Burns 3 4 17 7 0 0 6 0 51.3 61 33 30 9 16 41 1 1 5.26 1.50
Ryan Franklin 12 11 190 0 0 0 87 48 205.3 187 68 64 20 51 126 7 5 2.81 1.16
ScottSchoeneweis3 10 181 0 0 0 36 3 135.3 144 78 72 20 62 88 8 6 4.79 1.52
Jason Standridge0 1 4 0 0 0 2 0 7.7 11 10 7 2 5 6 0 0 8.22 2.09
Justin Germano 7 13 38 29 0 0 7 0 177.0 187 103 95 22 53 95 9 5 4.83 1.36
Grant Balfour 11 6 130 0 0 0 28 5 137.0 107 60 58 8 68 165 3 3 3.81 1.28
Kyle Lohse 20 13 63 61 1 1 0 0 292.3 306 138 131 29 78 178 6 8 4.03 1.31
Kirk Saarloos 1 0 8 1 0 0 1 0 26.3 37 17 16 2 4 12 0 0 5.47 1.56
Eddie Guardado 5 6 106 0 0 0 22 4 89.7 83 44 42 11 31 50 2 1 4.22 1.27
Carlos Guevara 1 0 10 0 0 0 6 0 12.3 13 9 8 2 9 11 0 3 5.84 1.78
Jeff Stevens 0 0 6 0 0 0 2 0 7.3 7 6 6 0 5 6 1 0 7.36 1.64
Mike Gosling 0 0 7 0 0 0 3 0 12.0 17 9 9 3 5 7 0 0 6.75 1.83
Victor Santos 0 2 4 3 0 0 0 0 14.3 20 13 13 5 10 4 1 1 8.16 2.09
TOTALS 84 86 988 123 1 1 247 61 1,524.7 1578 821 765 171 549 1009 49 53 4.52 1.40

Players acquired by Wayne Krivsky:

Name G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO HBP SH BA OBP SLG OPS
Scott Hatteberg 291 1017 869 115 253 58 1 23 105 2 3 130 83 6 3 0.291 0.384 0.440 0.823
QuintonMcCracken45 60 53 5 11 1 1 1 2 2 0 4 9 0 3 0.208 0.263 0.321 0.584
Dave Ross 238 817 652 78 149 32 1 39 99 0 1 85 190 4 14 0.229 0.296 0.460 0.757
Brandon Phillips558 2361 2157 311 589 98 17 85 322 99 28 143 342 28 8 0.273 0.323 0.452 0.775
Cody Ross 2 5 5 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0.200 0.200 0.200 0.400
Juan Castro 115 209 194 14 43 10 1 2 19 0 1 10 34 0 3 0.222 0.257 0.314 0.572
Royce Clayton 50 164 149 13 35 8 0 2 13 6 3 11 32 1 2 0.235 0.290 0.329 0.619
Brendan Harris 8 11 10 2 2 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 4 0 0 0.200 0.273 0.500 0.773
Brandon Watson 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 - - - -
ToddHollndsworth34 74 68 6 18 6 0 1 8 0 1 6 19 0 0 0.265 0.324 0.397 0.721
Alex Gonzalez 178 700 636 71 158 39 1 19 81 0 2 39 111 10 8 0.248 0.299 0.403 0.702
Chad Moeller 30 49 48 6 8 1 0 1 2 0 0 0 17 0 1 0.167 0.167 0.250 0.417
Josh Hamilton 90 337 298 52 87 17 2 19 47 3 3 33 65 4 0 0.292 0.368 0.554 0.922
Jeff Conine 80 242 215 23 57 11 1 6 32 4 0 20 28 0 1 0.265 0.320 0.409 0.729
Enrique Cruz 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
Jeff Keppinger 188 778 700 84 202 40 4 8 75 5 2 54 36 6 12 0.289 0.342 0.391 0.733
Pedro Lopez 14 47 45 1 8 2 0 0 0 0 0 1 10 1 0 0.178 0.213 0.222 0.435
Mark Bellhorn 13 18 14 2 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 4 5 0 0 0.071 0.278 0.071 0.349
Jason Ellison 37 56 48 7 9 1 0 1 2 1 0 5 15 1 2 0.188 0.278 0.271 0.549
Buck Coats 20 38 34 2 7 4 0 0 2 0 0 3 15 0 0 0.206 0.263 0.324 0.587
Jorge Cantu 27 68 57 8 17 8 0 1 9 0 0 7 10 2 0 0.298 0.382 0.491 0.874
Ryan Jorgensen 4 15 15 3 3 0 0 2 6 0 0 0 5 0 0 0.200 0.200 0.600 0.800
Corey Patterson 135 392 366 46 75 17 2 10 34 14 9 16 57 1 5 0.205 0.238 0.344 0.582
JerryHairstonJr.166 637 568 94 163 38 3 14 63 22 6 44 82 6 14 0.287 0.342 0.438 0.780
Andy Phillips 15 23 21 1 3 1 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0.143 0.217 0.190 0.408
Jolbert Cabrera 48 126 115 17 29 6 1 3 12 2 0 8 29 2 0 0.252 0.310 0.400 0.710
Kevin Barker 2 2 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
Paul Bako 99 338 299 30 65 11 2 6 35 0 2 34 90 1 3 0.217 0.299 0.328 0.626
Jerry Gil 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 - - - -
TOTALS 2490 8587 7639 991 1993 409 37 244 974 161 61 660 1296 73 79 0.261 0.320 0.420 0.740

Name W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP ERA WHIP
Bronson Arroyo 49 48 127 127 8 3 0 0 805.0 834 411 374 113 248 588 32 17 4.18 1.34
Jon Coutlangus 4 2 64 0 0 0 9 0 41.0 38 22 20 3 27 38 4 6 4.39 1.59
Joe Mays 0 1 7 4 0 0 0 0 27.0 40 23 22 4 12 16 0 3 7.33 1.93
Esteban Yan 1 0 14 0 0 0 4 1 15.0 13 7 6 4 7 8 0 1 3.60 1.33
Eddie Guardado 0 0 30 0 0 0 13 8 27.7 31 16 13 4 6 25 2 0 4.23 1.34
Gary Majewski 2 6 88 0 0 0 18 0 78.0 134 67 64 10 22 46 8 1 7.38 2.00
Bill Bray 7 6 111 0 0 0 22 3 89.0 99 45 38 8 38 91 1 2 3.84 1.54
Rheal Cormier 0 1 27 0 0 0 8 0 17.0 25 10 10 4 5 7 1 0 5.29 1.76
Kyle Lohse 9 17 33 32 2 1 1 0 194.7 213 109 99 23 52 131 6 5 4.58 1.36
Ryan Franklin 5 2 20 0 0 0 6 0 24.3 27 14 12 3 16 18 0 1 4.44 1.77
ScottSchoeneweis2 0 16 0 0 0 8 3 14.3 9 1 1 1 8 11 1 1 0.63 1.19
Jason Johnson 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 8.7 11 5 3 1 0 4 1 0 3.12 1.27
Sun-Woo Kim 0 1 2 1 0 0 0 0 6.7 7 4 4 3 0 4 0 2 5.40 1.05
Mike Stanton 1 3 69 0 0 0 11 0 57.3 75 39 38 6 18 40 5 1 5.97 1.62
Jared Burton 9 3 137 0 0 0 33 0 143.3 134 64 58 11 65 122 6 7 3.64 1.39
Victor Santos 1 4 32 0 0 0 12 0 49.0 51 28 28 10 23 44 2 2 5.14 1.51
Kirk Saarloos 1 5 34 3 0 0 7 0 42.7 54 36 34 8 19 27 3 1 7.17 1.71
Bobby Livingston3 3 10 10 0 0 0 0 56.3 77 35 33 8 8 27 1 2 5.27 1.51
Ricky Stone 0 0 5 0 0 0 3 0 5.3 7 6 6 4 0 3 1 0 10.13 1.31
Marcus McBeth 3 2 23 0 0 0 7 0 19.7 22 13 13 2 7 17 1 2 5.95 1.47
Edinson Volquez 21 8 42 41 0 0 1 0 245.7 201 107 94 20 125 253 19 12 3.44 1.33
FranciscoCordero6 7 119 0 0 0 103 59 117.7 98 41 38 8 58 116 3 5 2.91 1.33
Jeremy Affeldt 1 1 74 0 0 0 20 0 78.3 78 36 29 9 25 80 3 6 3.33 1.31
Mike Lincoln 3 6 83 0 0 0 20 0 93.3 95 58 56 17 43 66 7 4 5.40 1.48
Daryl Thompson 0 2 3 3 0 0 0 0 14.3 20 11 11 3 7 6 1 1 6.91 1.88
DanielRayHerrera1 4 60 0 0 0 8 0 56.0 60 27 19 5 21 47 3 1 3.05 1.45
Josh Fogg 2 7 22 14 0 0 3 0 78.3 97 69 66 17 27 45 6 1 7.58 1.58
Matt Maloney 0 2 3 3 0 0 0 0 17.7 18 12 12 6 5 14 2 0 6.11 1.30
Adam Pettyjohn 0 1 3 1 0 0 1 0 4.0 11 9 9 2 2 1 1 0 20.25 3.25
Robert Manuel 0 0 3 0 0 0 1 0 4.3 5 0 0 0 1 2 0 0 0.00 1.38
Jon Adkins 1 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 3.7 4 1 1 1 3 3 0 0 2.45 1.91
Josh Roenicke 0 0 16 0 0 0 2 0 16.3 19 7 7 0 6 20 1 1 3.86 1.53
Mike Gosling 2 0 24 0 0 0 7 0 34.3 43 24 20 6 29 33 2 1 5.24 2.10
TOTALS 134 142 1309 239 10 4 328 74 2486.0 2650 1357 1238 324 933 1953 123 86 4.48 1.44

dougdirt
08-19-2009, 08:14 PM
Krivsky. Unfortunately he didn't have free reign on roster moves or player signings. Jocketty isn't built to succeed in this market with this team.

oneupper
08-19-2009, 08:18 PM
Krivsky was a master a dumpster diving. He just got too enamoured with the junk he acquired (or inherited) and wanted to keep them forever at a premium price.

Jocketty hasn't shown me much so far.

A wash for me. They were both hamstrung by a limited budget and very little to build off.

dougdirt
08-19-2009, 08:25 PM
Krivsky was a master a dumpster diving. He just got too enamoured with the junk he acquired (or inherited) and wanted to keep them forever at a premium price.

Jocketty hasn't shown me much so far.

A wash for me. They were both hamstrung by a limited budget and very little to build off.

I wouldn't be so sure 'keeping' everyone was Krivsky's call.

oneupper
08-19-2009, 08:32 PM
I wouldn't be so sure 'keeping' everyone was Krivsky's call.

Yeah. You could add "ownership" to the obstacles facing both WK and WJ.

Reds4Life
08-19-2009, 08:39 PM
I think Krivsky was a better fit for the team. He had a solid scouting background and could identify talent on the cheap if possible, and had been with organizations charged to do more with less. Walt is used to being able to spend mountains of cash, and if he swings and misses on a few it's no big deal. He doesn't have the luxury with the Reds.

Stormy
08-19-2009, 08:44 PM
I wouldn't be so sure 'keeping' everyone was Krivsky's call.

Exactly. Krivsky was going about the proper rebuilding process, when BCast started injecting his 'win now' operating procedures everytime the team neared .500 baseball. Krivsky and Mackanin were the proper tandem to lead the team through a protracted rebuild and development mode, but ownership wanted instant contention, and they weren't a good fit for that mode of operation. The result was a series of desperation trades, desperation reaches on FA acquisitions, and ill-advised extensions based upon the premise that we were just a piece of the puzzle away.

They were both subsequently jettisoned in favor of 'big name' management (Dusty and Walt), which has predictably fared even worse, because style over substance is the type of simplistic criterion that BCast believes equates to 'win now.'

westofyou
08-19-2009, 08:58 PM
Slurpees or Slushee's, Sunshine or Nabisco, Bert or Ernie.

cincrazy
08-19-2009, 09:28 PM
Slurpees or Slushee's, Sunshine or Nabisco, Bert or Ernie.

Reds or Pirates.

Highlifeman21
08-19-2009, 09:39 PM
Reds or Pirates.

or Royals.

cincrazy
08-19-2009, 09:48 PM
or Royals.

Or Long Island Ducks.

Seriously, I went to a Ducks game this year. They have several former major league players who could probably field a better lineup than the one the Reds are currently running out there.

Falls City Beer
08-19-2009, 09:50 PM
Herpes vs. Genital Warts

Jpup
08-19-2009, 09:52 PM
Herpes vs. Genital Warts

That's odd coming from Jocketty's biggest supporter.

Highlifeman21
08-19-2009, 09:53 PM
Or Long Island Ducks.

Seriously, I went to a Ducks game this year. They have several former major league players who could probably field a better lineup than the one the Reds are currently running out there.

Was it this year for the Long Island Ducks that Jose Offerman used a bat to hit a pitcher after charging the mound?

cincrazy
08-19-2009, 09:54 PM
Was it this year for the Long Island Ducks that Jose Offerman used a bat to hit a pitcher after charging the mound?

Hmm.... Just googled it, actually happened in 2007 to my surprise, thought it may have been this year. He's got nothing on Izzy Alcantara though.

Falls City Beer
08-19-2009, 09:56 PM
That's odd coming from Jocketty's biggest supporter.

He's either lost it, is unfit for the circumstances (and the circumstances are atrocious--like cleaning up Chernobyl atrocious), or is uninterested.

I'll give him the offseason to pronounce him dead.

Highlifeman21
08-19-2009, 09:58 PM
Herpes vs. Genital Warts

So you voted for "they are equal to me"

Falls City Beer
08-19-2009, 10:00 PM
So you voted for "they are equal to me"

No, I like Jocketty more, but at this point I don't care. Neither was or is capable of getting the job done.

The Reds have by far the bleakest future of any of the 30 MLB franchises; that failure's got a bunch of parents.

Highlifeman21
08-19-2009, 10:02 PM
No, I like Jocketty more, but at this point I don't care. Neither was or is capable of getting the job done.

The Reds have by far the bleakest future of any of the 30 MLB franchises; that failure's got a bunch of parents.

Wouldn't surprise me if Walt rides off into the sunset during the offseason.

cincrazy
08-19-2009, 10:03 PM
Wouldn't surprise me if Walt rides off into the sunset during the offseason.

I don't know if I'd call it a sunset.

Jpup
08-19-2009, 10:05 PM
Wouldn't surprise me if Walt rides off into the sunset during the offseason.

please wake him and send him on his way.

fearofpopvol1
08-19-2009, 10:06 PM
Too soon to judge. Need more time. Krivsky at least had what...at little over 2 years? Walt has had what, a year?

I think you have to at least give him one more offseason.

Of course, it sounds like BCast is a control freak and dictates way too many decisions. And owners that tend to have that much influence over day-to-day operations usually don't work out too well. Unless you're Steinbrenner with a boatload of money.

fearofpopvol1
08-19-2009, 10:07 PM
Wouldn't surprise me if Walt rides off into the sunset during the offseason.

this in my opinion would actually be even worse. i have a feeling bavasi takes over when this happens and i don't see how that can be good.

jojo
08-19-2009, 10:08 PM
He's either lost it, is unfit for the circumstances (and the circumstances are atrocious--like cleaning up Chernobyl atrocious), or is uninterested.

I'll give him the offseason to pronounce him dead.

This is a "for what its worth" guess but I think the guy would rather be fishing but is very loyal to his friends.

TheNext44
08-19-2009, 10:30 PM
Krivsky did a great job adding cheap talent, but he fell into the same problem mindset that has haunted the Reds this decade. He would "go for it" each year during the offseason or the trading deadline, filling in whatever holes the team had, and not realizing that every time he did that, he created other holes, and/or destroyed the teams payflex. Kinda like fighting last years war, every year.

2006 - The Trade. Plus the acquisition of nearly every available pitcher, none of whom worked out, but resulted in having to pay Stanton to not pitch the next year.

2007 - Gonzo signing.

2008 - Cordero signing, Volquez for Hamilton.

Add in all the bad signings, the extensions to Harang and Volquez, and you have a tenure defined by an inability to have and execute a long term plan. I think if he would have stayed GM, the Reds would have tried to go for it this year and signed a Bradley, Furcal or a Burrell, and be in even worse shape than they are right now.

Another problem I had with Krivsky was that he did not play well with others. He immediately fired Kuhlman, and pushed out Bender, Almaraz, and anyone else who he considered a threat. He needed to be the only voice of authority, which is never good when running a team.

As for Jocketty, as I have argued before, he has a long term plan, and is patiently sticking to it. I am not thrilled with the some of the execution of the plan... signing Taveras, trading Stewart in particular, but at least he has an idea of what his team should be and is slowly forming the Reds into that team.

Ask me next year about Jocketty and I'll have a better answer.

Stormy
08-19-2009, 10:41 PM
Krivsky did a great job adding cheap talent, but he fell into the same problem mindset that has haunted the Reds this decade. He would "go for it" each year during the offseason or the trading deadline, filling in whatever holes the team had, and not realizing that every time he did that, he created other holes, and/or destroyed the teams payflex. Kinda like fighting last years war, every year.

2006 - The Trade. Plus the acquisition of nearly every available pitcher, none of whom worked out, but resulted in having to pay Stanton to not pitch the next year.

2007 - Gonzo signing.

2008 - Cordero signing, Volquez for Hamilton.

Add in all the bad signings, the extensions to Harang and Volquez, and you have a tenure defined by an inability to have and execute a long term plan. I think if he would have stayed GM, the Reds would have tried to go for it this year and signed a Bradley, Furcal or a Burrell, and be in even worse shape than they are right now.

Another problem I had with Krivsky was that he did not play well with others. He immediately fired Kuhlman, and pushed out Bender, Almaraz, and anyone else who he considered a threat. He needed to be the only voice of authority, which is never good when running a team.

As for Jocketty, as I have argued before, he has a long term plan, and is patiently sticking to it. I am not thrilled with the some of the execution of the plan... signing Taveras, trading Stewart in particular, but at least he has an idea of what his team should be and is slowly forming the Reds into that team.

Ask me next year about Jocketty and I'll have a better answer.

Krivsky was seemingly compelled to make such bold moves because he had a 'win now' owner, with no patience for a rebuild, mandating immediate contention at every turn. Likewise, his successor was soon to be looking over his shoulder, adding extra incentive to win before being replaced. What might Krivsky have netted from 'the trade' if he approached it looking for long-term prospects, rather than pressure from ownership to capitalize on our proximity to the WC race? It's hypothetical, but we know what BCast was pushing for.

As for Walt Jocketty's long-term 'plan' there is not one piece of tangible evidence that it exists. You can't cite a single point of reference that Walt has any plan of that nature in the works. Conversely, there are multiple moves and commentary that seem to controvert this patient, long-term approach by both GM and ownership.

WVRedsFan
08-20-2009, 12:15 AM
With all due respect to everyone, Krivsky made some horrible decisions and some horrible deals. I still have the list of his moves his first year and it read like every horrible baseball player that ever lived. Under the gun or not, he just wasn't up to the task--a fact proven by the reality that no other team has even given him anything but a token job in baseball. It's terribly easy to blame the failure of a GM on an owner when we have no proof that was the case. Sure, it looks that way, but if you like a guy, you can rationalize your way into blaming someone else. I don't buy it.

Will Walt be a success here? I don't have any idea. I really don't, but I'm willing to go with someone with a track record over someone who who tried and failed. Regardless of who his boss was. Wayne assembled a club that is no better than the one we have now. As for finding players off the dumpster, I can name Brandon who really made a difference. The Reds were losers then and now.

KoryMac5
08-20-2009, 12:32 AM
Walt and Wayne each had their strong suits and likewise had their own issues. I think someone said in an earlier thread it is too bad we couldn't merge the best qualities of Wayne, Walt, and Dan O into the ideal GM. Unfortunately even if we had the ideal GM they would still have to deal with the Cast issue. The best thing Walt could do for this franchise is resign, sending shock waves from his press conference towards our wonderful owner.

Homer Bailey
08-20-2009, 01:47 AM
Somehow I knew Brutus and TheNext would vote Jock :D.


Wayne yesterday, this morning, this afternoon, and tonight. Oh, and tomorrow.


Go Willy, Scott, and the rest of Walt's crew!

cincyinco
08-20-2009, 01:55 AM
I took Wayne.

They both have their pro's and con's for sure. Wayne made some bad moves, and contracts. Walt has done the same.

Yet the difference for me comes down to Wayne seemed to be able to adapt and learn. And Walt seems to be playing the same game he did in St. Louis under not so similar circumstances.

Oh, and Wayne, I think, genuinely cared about his team. I'm not sure, but I get the feeling Walt is indifferent.

Just callin it how I see it, but I really wonder, had cast stayed out of wk's way, where the reds might be right now.

Ron Madden
08-20-2009, 05:28 AM
Six of one half dozen of the other in my humble opinion.

princeton
08-20-2009, 06:59 AM
I'm willing to go with someone with a track record over someone who who tried and failed.


as for track record, Wayne won more here than Walt has. Walt put together this current crop, which is the worst I've seen since DanO (who also won more)

the other thing that bugs me is that Wayne had a lot of experience in team building in spite of low attendance. it was right match for the Cincy market. instead, Cast wanted more of a St Louis model of win-now, in spite of the low attendance. so, he's got Walt, which has been rather disastrous so far.

logically, I think that adding money to the Minnesota guy would result in a better outcome than taking a lot of money away from the St Louis guy.

membengal
08-20-2009, 08:00 AM
Full agreement, Princeton. I would have thought the Jocketty hire would have been accompanied by Castellini opening the purse strings significantly.

That he didn't makes that hire even worse.

Jocketty is a horrible match for this club at this salary restriction. Krivsky was the right guy for that, and Castellini fired him.

Castellini's ownership, frankly, has been more disappointing to me at this point than Lindner's was. And I didn't think that would be possible...

IowaRed
08-20-2009, 08:04 AM
If I'm remembering correctly when Krivsky left he said something about wanting everyone to know that Baker was HIS choice for manager. I guess there was speculation that somebody else made that decision and he just had to live with it. Because of that, they are equally ineffectual in my book

paulrichjr
08-20-2009, 09:33 AM
Walt reminds me of DanO. He's got a "plan" but no one knows what it is and it is going to take 5 years minimum to make it work. Wayne could uncover diamonds (small ones but still diamonds) better than anyone we have had in a long time. I think if Wayne were still here this team would be better...Championship material? doubtful but he would have kept things interesting. DanO and Walt put me to sleep. (Rolen trade woke me up)

By the way I was mad the day he was fired and I'm still not happy about it. I like what someone said earlier about Wayne really caring for this team. I really think he had more fire. My 10 year old son asked me the other day why they fired Krivsky. I said because it's the Reds and they do dumb things all the time.

durl
08-20-2009, 10:05 AM
I wanted to see what Krivsky would do. Not every move was perfect but no GM is perfect and it takes tons of cash to cover mistakes, which Krivsky didn't have.

Krivsky had the background of taking a franchise like Cincinnati and turning it into a competitor and doing it cheaply. 2 years wasn't enough time, IMO, to see whether he could build a competitive franchise. I'm not necessarily against Jocketty and he may yet turn this team around. I just felt that Krivsky was not given adequate time and resources to build a strong team.

Unassisted
08-20-2009, 10:06 AM
Wouldn't surprise me if Walt rides off into the sunset during the offseason.He didn't want the job in the first place, so I never expected him to stay more than three seasons.

Degenerate39
08-20-2009, 10:10 AM
I think Krivsky's only down fall was the contracts he gave out.

westofyou
08-20-2009, 10:20 AM
as for track record, Wayne won more here than Walt has. Walt put together this current crop, which is the worst I've seen since DanO (who also won more)

the other thing that bugs me is that Wayne had a lot of experience in team building in spite of low attendance. it was right match for the Cincy market. instead, Cast wanted more of a St Louis model of win-now, in spite of the low attendance. so, he's got Walt, which has been rather disastrous so far.

logically, I think that adding money to the Minnesota guy would result in a better outcome than taking a lot of money away from the St Louis guy.

Yep, but then again you can't pile ridiculous hyperbole about unprepared Walt was/is because he did it in St. Louis, like you can about Wayne.

I still think it was bush league what they did to Krivsky.

Karma has a payback plan.

redsmetz
08-20-2009, 10:37 AM
I wanted to see what Krivsky would do. Not every move was perfect but no GM is perfect and it takes tons of cash to cover mistakes, which Krivsky didn't have.

Krivsky had the background of taking a franchise like Cincinnati and turning it into a competitor and doing it cheaply. 2 years wasn't enough time, IMO, to see whether he could build a competitive franchise. I'm not necessarily against Jocketty and he may yet turn this team around. I just felt that Krivsky was not given adequate time and resources to build a strong team.

I voted Krivsky, but also was inclined to "they're the same" or whatever the language was. I agree wholeheartedly that WK should have been given the time and I liked the overall direction he was taking. That said, I'm confortable with Jocketty. I'm guessing that he may have more influence on Castellini, not because Castellini is some loose cannon (he's not a dope and I think he was rash with firing WK, a setback for the club), but because I think WJ can get Castellini to see these things take time.

Perhaps this would be more apt to "the plan" thread (and maybe I'll take it over there too), but I think WJ was looking to have a nominally competitive club this season, the signing of Willy Taveras notwithstanding (definitely a misfire). But this club has been decimated by injuries, exposing the clear lack of depth available to fill in (many of minor league players all were a bit shy of being ready). With Taveras going on the DL, that means that all but one of our expected starters were disabled this season (I'm setting LF as Dickerson & Hairston for the start, possibly debatable). The only position player who didn't spend time on the DL, Brandon Phillips, has had some nagging injuries that put him "day to day" a couple of times. And we've had three starting pitchers also on the DL.

Now those of us who were optimistic early in the season, said repeatedly that much had to go right for us to compete. In fact, nothing went right, particular with regards to injuries. We really probably try to find a witch doctor, we're so snake bit. But until the Rolen trade, sending Roenicke and Stewart with EE, we've held on to our top young talent. That trade will have to play out to see if it was successful (and that's not my point here), but I think Jocketty has basically been a slower trigger Krivsky.

But you can't consider how we're doing without examining somewhat the devestating number of injuries throughout this season. I'm looking forward to this off season; hopeful, but they've got their work cut out for them, as they have for a while. But I continue to disagree that what we've seen the last few years organizationally is "more of the same." I understand folks will disagree with that, but this isn't the Schott chaos and the Lindner tight purse strings. Clearly the economic downturn has impacted what they can do (and hopefully that will change within the year), but I'm interested to see how this plays out.

Falls City Beer
08-20-2009, 10:37 AM
I still think it was bush league what they did to Krivsky.
.

I think this is at the heart of a lot of Redszoners dislike of Jocketty and Castellini. I sort of agree.

But let's not pretend like this pathetic team and farm system isn't about 80% Wayne/DanO. Obviously Walt sat down in the 9th ward with a single bucket and a mop to deal with it, but this was a pretty egregious inheritance. Walt's answers to this abomination are, however, brutally insufficient.

Falls City Beer
08-20-2009, 10:39 AM
I think Krivsky's only down fall was the contracts he gave out.

Lincecum. If you say it enough it shows up in your dreams. Wayne earned his dismissal for that alone.

HokieRed
08-20-2009, 10:40 AM
Frankly I thought the handling of Dan O was equally bush.

Falls City Beer
08-20-2009, 10:42 AM
Frankly I thought the handling of Dan O was equally bush.

I agree. But this organization is top to bottom one of the worst in that category, which is why couldn't care less about the fate of Krivsky; he simply didn't earn another extension.

HokieRed
08-20-2009, 10:46 AM
I agree. But this organization is top to bottom one of the worst in that category, which is why couldn't care less about the fate of Krivsky; he simply didn't earn another extension.

Granted. I'd love to see RZ discussion get off the whole matter of attacking WJ, which is really a way for many of defending WK, or vice versa. So I'm glad to see this very explicit thread, maybe it means the last gasp of this stuff.

nate
08-20-2009, 10:47 AM
I still think it was bush league what they did to Krivsky.

Agreed. Not Tony Perez crappy but crappy nevertheless.

edabbs44
08-20-2009, 11:03 AM
I agree. But this organization is top to bottom one of the worst in that category, which is why couldn't care less about the fate of Krivsky; he simply didn't earn another extension.


Granted. I'd love to see RZ discussion get off the whole matter of attacking WJ, which is really a way for many of defending WK, or vice versa. So I'm glad to see this very explicit thread, maybe it means the last gasp of this stuff.

I have refrained from this thread for obvious reasons...however, I agree with both of you wholeheartedly.

Reds/Flyers Fan
08-20-2009, 11:17 AM
Walt Jocketty has been nothing short of disappointing. And it really isn't so much the monetary restrictions that he has to work with, it's the shortsighted, bone-headed and ill-advised moves he makes where cash isn't a primary consideration. See Taveras, Willy; McDonald, Darnell; Rolen, Scott.

This team is the least interesting it has been since I started following the Reds, and I see nothing on the short or long-term horizon that's going to change that. I got DirecTV Extra Innings this year but really haven't watched more than a random inning or two since the All-Star Break. And I can't imagine re-upping next year to watch more of Janish, Rosales and Sutton try to play against legitimate MLB teams.

What's more, the Reds are in Colorado in 2 weeks - an hour drive for me - but I think I'll pass on all four games. I'm approaching apathy.

Thanks WJ and BC!

princeton
08-20-2009, 11:19 AM
I think Krivsky's only down fall was the contracts he gave out.


Krivsky's downfall came when the Cards fired Jocketty.

edabbs44
08-20-2009, 11:31 AM
Krivsky's downfall came when the Cards fired Jocketty.

While there is probably some truth to that, Krivsky did enough on his own to necessitate a change.

Spring~Fields
08-20-2009, 11:33 AM
Neither. They both deserve to be with better ownership groups. It makes me feel bad to see very good people dragged down by such ownership.

fearofpopvol1
08-20-2009, 11:45 AM
walt deserves another offseason before jumping to such conclusions. and we really don't know just how much control bcast has over this situation. i, however, am guessing it's a lot more than one would hope for.

princeton
08-20-2009, 11:57 AM
While there is probably some truth to that, Krivsky did enough on his own to necessitate a change.

I know that Jocketty has done more than enough, given his weaker record. but I don't think that Bavasi's firing by Seattle puts Walt at risk. I hope not, at least.

OnBaseMachine
08-20-2009, 12:03 PM
Granted. I'd love to see RZ discussion get off the whole matter of attacking WJ, which is really a way for many of defending WK, or vice versa. So I'm glad to see this very explicit thread, maybe it means the last gasp of this stuff.

Oh trust me, there is way more Krivsky bashing around here than Jocketty bashing. We don't have to even be talking about Krivsky and some folks still manage to take shots at Krivsky. Some have even chalked Krivsky's good moves up as simple luck as they refuse to give him any credit at all.

As for the original question, Krivsky wasn't a great GM but I would definitely take him over Jocketty.

Patrick Bateman
08-20-2009, 12:10 PM
I'm comfortable with the thought that neither guy should probably be at the helm of a MLB organization right now.

I preferred Krivsky, but his track record wa spretty spotty too. The Reds need a change of direction and philosophy that neither guy offers. Until then, I think it's just more of the same hit or miss stuff.

edabbs44
08-20-2009, 12:24 PM
I know that Jocketty has done more than enough, given his weaker record. but I don't think that Bavasi's firing by Seattle puts Walt at risk. I hope not, at least.

W/L record?

You really think that a guy who takes a team over in mid-season 2008 should be solely judged on the 2009 record?

Wow.

edabbs44
08-20-2009, 12:24 PM
We don't have to even be talking about Krivsky and some folks still manage to take shots at Krivsky.

He's like the Taveras of the front office.

nate
08-20-2009, 12:26 PM
W/L record?

You really think that a guy who takes a team over in mid-season 2008 should be solely judged on the 2009 record?

Wow.

It's about twice as long as you gave Wayne.

nate
08-20-2009, 12:27 PM
He's like the Taveras of the front office.

Not really.

OnBaseMachine
08-20-2009, 12:28 PM
It's about twice as long as you gave Wayne.

Yep.

Spring~Fields
08-20-2009, 12:31 PM
Walt Jocketty
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Walt Jocketty


Jocketty before Opening Day 2006 at Busch Stadium
Born 1951
Minneapolis, MN
Education University of Minnesota - 1969 graduate of Marshall High School in Mpls which closed in 1982
Known for General Manager of St. Louis Cardinals and Cincinnati Reds
Spouse(s) Sue

Walt Jocketty is the General Manager of the Cincinnati Reds. Born in Minneapolis, Minnesota, he attended the University of Minnesota where he earned a bachelor's degree in business administration. He was previously the General Manager of the St. Louis Cardinals from October 14, 1994 until October 3, 2007.

Oakland and Colorado
In addition to his long tenure with the Cardinals, Jocketty also spent 14 years in the Oakland organization beginning in March 1980, when he was hired by owner Charlie Finley as Director of Minor League Operations and Scouting. It was in this capacity that Jocketty took a lead role in overhauling the A's minor league system, and was also was instrumental in founding the Arizona Rookie League and the Dominican Summer League.[1] Less than five years into his time with Oakland, Jocketty was promoted to Director of Baseball Administration, a post he held the remainder of his time in Oakland. During the 1994 season Jocketty served the Colorado Rockies for a brief stint as their Assistant General Manager/Player Personnel.

The Cardinal Years
Walt Jocketty was hired as General Manager of the St. Louis Cardinals on October 14, 1994. When Anheuser-Busch sold the team following the 1995 season, the new ownership chose to retain Jocketty. He was instrumental in bringing new manager Tony La Russa, whom he had worked with in Oakland, to St. Louis.

During his time as Cardinal GM, the Cardinals compiled six National League Central Division championships (1996, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006), two National League Championships (2004 and 2006), and one World Series Championship (2006). The Cardinals had seven straight winning seasons under Jocketty, including 100+ win seasons in 2004 and 2005. Jocketty has been named the Executive of the Year in MLB twice, in 2000 and 2004.

Jocketty was fired by the Cardinals organization on October 3rd, 2007. Team owner Bill DeWitt cited divisiveness in the baseball operations front office as the reason for Jocketty's dismissal.


Cincinnati
Walt Jocketty was hired as a Special Adviser to the Cincinnati Reds on January 11, 2008. Jocketty role was to advise and assist the team in their baseball operations which includes the front office, personnel, scouting, minor and international operations and training and medical services.

He was named the next General Manager of the Reds after Wayne Krivsky was fired April 23, 2008

Falls City Beer
08-20-2009, 12:33 PM
I'm comfortable with the thought that neither guy should probably be at the helm of a MLB organization right now.

I preferred Krivsky, but his track record wa spretty spotty too. The Reds need a change of direction and philosophy that neither guy offers. Until then, I think it's just more of the same hit or miss stuff.

I agree. The most acute minds in baseball would need years to get this organization moving properly and winning regularly. It's the same shambles it was when Wayne left, except worse because nothing's been done in the intervening 16 months since Walt took over. So time wasted failing to correct has made the product older, more expensive, and less productive.

edabbs44
08-20-2009, 12:33 PM
It's about twice as long as you gave Wayne.

That's bunk.

I didn't judge Krivsky based solely on his W/L record.

However, the team's record meant more in his evaluation than it should for Walt, IMO, due to the fact that he was allowed to spend more freely. He chose to spend at the ML level and, for that, you would expect to see results at that level.

edabbs44
08-20-2009, 12:34 PM
Not really.

Do you even read the whole post?

edabbs44
08-20-2009, 12:36 PM
Yep.

Nope.

And the interesting part is that my original post was about judging based on the W/L record and timing was secondary.

nate
08-20-2009, 12:37 PM
That's bunk.

No, it isn't.


I didn't judge Krivsky based solely on his W/L record.

That's right. I recall you voicing your displeasure before they'd played game 1.


However, the team's record meant more in his evaluation than it should for Walt, IMO, due to the fact that he was allowed to spend more freely. He chose to spend at the ML level and, for that, you would expect to see results at that level.

My GM evaluator is calibrated differently.

nate
08-20-2009, 12:38 PM
Do you even read the whole post?

Yep!

edabbs44
08-20-2009, 12:46 PM
That's right. I recall you voicing your displeasure before they'd played game 1.

More bunk. But I'd love if you could prove me wrong.

I was probably more critical of him earlier on due to some of the moves he made. Two times stick out in my mind:

1) The trade
2) Acquiring only Cormier at the deadline in 2006, when he and Bob talked about spending money if they were in it.

Throw in the first 2 rounds of the 2006 draft as well.

So, in comparison, inactivity is better than bad activity. And I've liked the early picks of Walt better than Wayne's.

But I don't think my hatred really showed until the off-season of 2006-2007.

nate
08-20-2009, 12:53 PM
More bunk. But I'd love if you could prove me wrong.

I was probably more critical of him earlier on due to some of the moves he made. Two times stick out in my mind:

1) The trade
2) Acquiring only Cormier at the deadline in 2006, when he and Bob talked about spending money if they were in it.

Throw in the first 2 rounds of the 2006 draft as well.

So, in comparison, inactivity is better than bad activity. And I've liked the early picks of Walt better than Wayne's.

But I don't think my hatred really showed until the off-season of 2006-2007.

It's not that difficult. I think you're overly hard on Wayne and not hard enough on Walt.

I think I'm not the only one seeing this.

OnBaseMachine
08-20-2009, 12:55 PM
It's not that difficult. I think you're overly hard on Wayne and not hard enough on Walt.

I think I'm not the only one seeing this.

Trust me, you're not. I noticed it a long time ago.

edabbs44
08-20-2009, 01:09 PM
It's not that difficult. I think you're overly hard on Wayne and not hard enough on Walt.

I think I'm not the only one seeing this.

That's ok. And I think that some are a little light on Wayne and too tough on Walt, and I'm not the only one seeing this also. Like how the blame for CPatt has always been shifted to Baker/Bob, yet Walt gets destroyed by some for Taveras. How does that make sense?

I think one of the problems is that people have short memories on this board. Threads disappear after time but the residual feelings generated by heated discussions last a lot longer.

A few examples:

I remember that I hated the ST invite of Mercker. Hated it. A few people on the thread bashed me, saying that I was overreacting and that this was a favor so that he could go out after one last ST with the boys. A few months later, Mercker was released with a bloated non-ST ERA. I would gather that, even though I wasn't exactly wrong in the end, some people still viewed me as being over the top against Wayne due to that thread. Even though my worries were justified.

Another move was the picking up of Hatteberg's option. Hated it and I pretty much nailed that one. I was in the overwhelming minority in that position and Hatteberg ended up being useless off the bench and was released a few months later at a waste of roughly $2MM. Again, I bet people remember more that I was going against Wayne than the fact that I was pretty accurate.

Just my thoughts.

princeton
08-20-2009, 01:18 PM
W/L record?

You really think that a guy who takes a team over in mid-season 2008 should be solely judged on the 2009 record?

Wow.

I don't really think that a guy who take a team over in mid-spring 2006 should be solely judged on the 2007 record


(burn!)


like I said, I hope Walt is not fired. but firing him in November would be in keeping with previous Castellini moves.

as for payroll, Walt's had a bit more money than Wayne and salaries have sunk. he's just not done anything with it. didn't trade off contracts that he didn't like, didn't make use of money that cleared. he hasn't played the money game well at all.

nate
08-20-2009, 01:27 PM
That's ok. And I think that some are a little light on Wayne and too tough on Walt, and I'm not the only one seeing this also. Like how the blame for CPatt has always been shifted to Baker/Bob, yet Walt gets destroyed by some for Taveras. How does that make sense?

I don't know and I don't care because that's not MY point of view.

See, nothing dumbs down a conversation like assigning a contrary amalgamation of opinions to a faceless entity like "Redszone" (which is almost always "those who don't share my opinion.") When I say something, I say what I mean and when I address other's opinions, I address what they say directly.

I'm not interested in the opinion of "Redszone," "this board," or "everyone" because those are just false constructs used to prop up strawmen.

As to that particular opinion. Corey Patterson was a bad signing but he was handled much better because he didn't end up playing that much after the beginning of the season. Nor was he signed for TWO YEARS at $6mm. So that particular signing is less bad than Willy Taveras.

To me.


I remember that I hated the ST invite of Mercker. Hated it. A few people on the thread bashed me, saying that I was overreacting and that this was a favor so that he could go out after one last ST with the boys. A few months later, Mercker was released with a bloated non-ST ERA. I would gather that, even though I wasn't exactly wrong in the end, some people still viewed me as being over the top against Wayne due to that thread. Even though my worries were justified. I don't recall that exchange so I don't have a comment.


Another move was the picking up of Hatteberg's option. Hated it and I pretty much nailed that one. No, you didn't. I feel they didn't want to thrust Votto into a situation where he had to be "the guy." So, they kept Hatteberg in order to ease Votto into the position. Hatteberg probably served as a good mentor to Votto while making that transition.

If Votto had to go back to AAA, they still had a backup plan. Hatteberg had been pretty good for the Reds until that year, sometimes guys get rewarded for what they've done. Sometimes a bargain gets equalized further down the road.

To me, it was a neutral move.

And I nailed it.


I was in the overwhelming minority in that position and Hatteberg ended up being useless off the bench and was released a few months later at a waste of roughly $2MM. Again, I bet people remember more that I was going against Wayne than the fact that I was pretty accurate.I disagree.


Just my thoughts.Just mine.

Stormy
08-20-2009, 01:29 PM
I agree. The most acute minds in baseball would need years to get this organization moving properly and winning regularly. It's the same shambles it was when Wayne left, except worse because nothing's been done in the intervening 16 months since Walt took over. So time wasted failing to correct has made the product older, more expensive, and less productive.

Well said! The negligent acts of omission, outweigh the considerable errors of commission, leaving the franchise with a end result that's further deteriorated from it's already beggarly condition. This GM job needed to be undertaken with an innovative, proactive roll up your sleeves approach designed to restructure from the bottom-up, while renovating the MLB roster. Instead, Walt has plodded along the wait-and-see, window dressing and patchwork approach, hoping to add a piece to aid the illusion of contention.

He actually thought we were contenders until injuries struck this year! That's downright delusional!

Falls City Beer
08-20-2009, 01:32 PM
Well said! The negligent acts of omission, outweigh the considerable errors of commission,

I don't share this belief. A sin's a sin. Wayne also turned an 820 run offense into a trash heap.

edabbs44
08-20-2009, 01:33 PM
as for payroll, Walt's had a bit more money than Wayne and salaries have sunk. he's just not done anything with it. didn't trade off contracts that he didn't like, didn't make use of money that cleared. he hasn't played the money game well at all.

Come on. You can't be serious.

Stormy
08-20-2009, 01:44 PM
I don't share this belief. A sin's a sin. Wayne also turned an 820 run offense into a trash heap.

I was speaking of Walt. His acts of omission, outweigh those of commission during his tenure (in my opinion). And, yes, both are sins. Wayne's errors were excessive, and I believe further compounded by ownership not supporting a rebuild at all. I was not a big advocate of many of the moves of Wayne's tenure, but I felt that if he were left to his own devices, he would have followed a much different strategic trajectory.

Walt is doing here what he's always done, just without anywhere near the finances, the attraction, or the coaching he had supporting him in St. Louis.

edabbs44
08-20-2009, 01:44 PM
As to that particular opinion. Corey Patterson was a bad signing but he was handled much better because he didn't end up playing that much after the beginning of the season. Nor was he signed for TWO YEARS at $6mm. So that particular signing is less bad than Willy Taveras.

Patterson had 212 PAs before the ASB and 180 after the ASB.

And a 1 year, $3MM difference is a blip. Not enough for the heartache around here, especially with some of the other checks being written.


[/QUOTE]No, you didn't. I feel they didn't want to thrust Votto into a situation where he had to be "the guy." So, they kept Hatteberg in order to ease Votto into the position. Hatteberg probably served as a good mentor to Votto while making that transition.[/QUOTE]

I guess you could be right if you want to justify a move by making guesses with zero basis.

Like how I thought it was a bad move because Hatteberg was going to be jealous of Votto. And they probably released him because he was a bad apple in the clubhouse.

Same thing.

nate
08-20-2009, 02:41 PM
Patterson had 212 PAs before the ASB and 180 after the ASB.

Not in the leadoff spot and not getting the second most ABs of anyone on the team.

At least CP could actually play defense. Willy T can't even do that well.


And a 1 year, $3MM difference is a blip. Every time you say $3mm doesn't matter, I'm going to continually refer to you saying "it adds up."

It adds up.

And this is exactly the hypocricy I'm talking about. If it made a difference for Wayne, it sure as hell makes a difference for Walt.


Not enough for the heartache around here, especially with some of the other checks being written.Again, couldn't care less about bad argument of "heartache around here." That's a poor argument.


guess you could be right if you want to justify a move by making guesses with zero basis.As I said, it was a neutral move at best. Sorry I can't achieve your level of ire on the matter.


Like how I thought it was a bad move because Hatteberg was going to be jealous of Votto. And they probably released him because he was a bad apple in the clubhouse.No.

Patrick Bateman
08-20-2009, 02:51 PM
This is really turning into an argument with basiclaly no evidence of anything. It's literally just, "yes you did", "no he didn't".

The sides are totally not going to budge on that type of stuff.

It's the Reds fault. Get a new GM.

Falls City Beer
08-20-2009, 02:53 PM
The sides are totally not going to budge on that type of stuff.

.

I've reconsidered my position. I'm not saying this kind of discussion is what did it, but...

Patrick Bateman
08-20-2009, 03:15 PM
I've reconsidered my position. I'm not saying this kind of discussion is what did it, but...

Well I meant more towards the last 2 pages of discussion here. The question being posed is: "Who was/is the better GM"?

Does it honestly really matter? Is ANYONE actually happy with the current direction?

I think you've realized that Walt hasn't really done anything significant to turn around the ship, when it's pretty clear that this is one of the worst teams in baseball. That wont change until drastic changes have been made, and that has not happened.

Falls City Beer
08-20-2009, 03:20 PM
Well I meant more towards the last 2 pages of discussion here. The question being posed is: "Who was/is the better GM"?

Does it honestly really matter? Is ANYONE actually happy with the current direction?

I think you've realized that Walt hasn't really done anything significant to turn around the ship, when it's pretty clear that this is one of the worst teams in baseball. That wont change until drastic changes have been made, and that has not happened.

Hey, just trying to be an opponent of entrenched positions. :)

I agree, though. Who cares who started or who is continuing this legacy of corrosion?

nate
08-20-2009, 03:22 PM
Well I meant more towards the last 2 pages of discussion here. The question being posed is: "Who was/is the better GM"?

Does it honestly really matter? Is ANYONE actually happy with the current direction?

I think you've realized that Walt hasn't really done anything significant to turn around the ship, when it's pretty clear that this is one of the worst teams in baseball. That wont change until drastic changes have been made, and that has not happened.

I think sometimes, every position gets quantized to an extreme. If you don't hate on Wayne, you love him. If you don't love Walt, you hate him.

I say, I'm pretty neutral on both guys. Neither is above average. In fact, both are pretty much representative of the cumulative talent they've run out on the field: below average.

How about we add some real talent to the field and the front office?

Degenerate39
08-20-2009, 03:24 PM
Lincecum. If you say it enough it shows up in your dreams. Wayne earned his dismissal for that alone.

Well every GM can say they've passed on someone they should'nt have.

Falls City Beer
08-20-2009, 03:34 PM
Well every GM can say they've passed on someone they should'nt have.

Krivsky made an art of it in his two drafts. And not just first-rounders.

edabbs44
08-20-2009, 03:47 PM
How about we add some real talent to the field and the front office?

Agreed.

edabbs44
08-20-2009, 03:47 PM
Krivsky made an art of it in his two drafts. And not just first-rounders.

Watson over Brett Anderson. That one floored me.

camisadelgolf
08-20-2009, 04:36 PM
GMs generally don't have much to do with who's selected in the draft. If you want to give Krivsky credit for who was selected in the drafts, let's be fair and not forget about Josh Roenicke, Chris Heisey, Danny Dorn, etc.

In the 2006 draft (when the Reds picked Stubbs over Lincecum), there were seven teams that picked ahead of the Reds, and you could argue that five of them would rather have Stubbs than the player they each selected.

And in 2007, most of the players selected in the first round after Mesoraco have been underwhelming, and only a few of them are as good of prospects as many of the Reds' other draft picks from that year (Todd Frazier, Kyle Lotzkar, Zack Cozart, Nefi Soto, etc.).

With hindsight, you can nitpick every draft every team has ever had, but drafting was definitely not one of Krivsky's downfalls--especially when you consider that he wasn't the person in charge of actually making the picks.

OnBaseMachine
08-20-2009, 04:49 PM
If we're going to bash Krivsky for his drafts then why stop there? Why not go after Jocketty for passing on Gordon Beckham? His .856 OPS sure would look nice in the Reds lineup right now.

jojo
08-20-2009, 05:31 PM
As some have pointed out, it's important to remember that GMs typically don't exert a great deal of influence over their org's draft day outside of budget-related issues. For instance, Bavasi had maybe just a tick over zilch to do with Fontaine's drafts in Seattle.

That said, presumably the GM has a much greater influence over choosing the guy whose job it is to make those draft decisions..... So there is some buck to duck so to speak....

GAC
08-20-2009, 07:04 PM
A GM is only as good as the owner.

paulrichjr
08-20-2009, 07:45 PM
A GM is only as good as the owner.

Then boy JimBo has really worked for some bad owners...Oh wait he has. So maybe he is just "misunderstood".

cincyinco
08-20-2009, 08:52 PM
Krivsky made an art of it in his two drafts. And not just first-rounders.

Then what does that say about jocketty, who has kept the same scouting director and draft mind in Buckley on board?

Its the same guy making the picks, for better or worse.

GAC
08-20-2009, 08:58 PM
Then boy JimBo has really worked for some bad owners...Oh wait he has. So maybe he is just "misunderstood".

There are always exceptions to the rule. :D

The Red's problem is a problem faced by 2/3 of MLB organizations.....the funds to acquire and hold onto talent. With limited budgets a team can spend, but only on a limited amount. So they then emphasize in what areas they are going to allocate that money. For years the Reds spent on position players and found reclamation projects in pitching. They've now gone the other way around, spending approximately 43M on pitching (33M to three guys) of a 71M payroll.

Now go around the horn at the position players.....

Phillips - 4.75M
Ramon - 7.5M (Reds got 2M from the Orioles too. So we're paying him 5.5 this year?)
Taveras - 2.25M
EE - 2.4M (traded)
AGon - 5.3M (traded)

So there is 22.2M on those 5 guys. So you've spent (committed) approximately 65M above. What have you got left?

It's fine that they have young prospects (talent) like a Votto and Bruce under their control for a few years cheaply; but the way they spend and allocate their money is ridiculous.

Walt says the plan is to continue to draft and develop talent. That's fine. And IMO, the Reds have seen SOME improvement in that area.

But an organization still has to spend and invest on established players too to complement that farm system. And whatever spending this organization does do, they don't do wisely IMO.

I guess it's all about where and how the money is TARGETED.

Falls City Beer
08-20-2009, 09:00 PM
Then what does that say about jocketty, who has kept the same scouting director and draft mind in Buckley on board?

Its the same guy making the picks, for better or worse.

Yeah, they haven't been a lot better. Alonso was a good pick, until his hand got in the way.

Spring~Fields
08-20-2009, 10:27 PM
Oh trust me, there is way more Krivsky bashing around here than Jocketty bashing. We don't have to even be talking about Krivsky and some folks still manage to take shots at Krivsky. Some have even chalked Krivsky's good moves up as simple luck as they refuse to give him any credit at all.

As for the original question, Krivsky wasn't a great GM but I would definitely take him over Jocketty.

Wait until Jocketty trades off more of the potential talent in the prospects and brings back more mediocre level talent like he has brought in so far. It is going to take a couple years for the masses to see what he is doing right in front of their eyes. He doesn’t have that St. Louis gravy train to support his methods of operation to improve a team, so what other avenue can he travel? Then after both wells are dry, prospects and money, he will retire.

Krivsky will be up for sainthood then.

TheNext44
08-20-2009, 11:01 PM
Wait until Jocketty trades off more of the potential talent in the prospects and brings back more mediocre level talent like he has brought in so far.

(bold = prospect; underline = mediocre talent)
Players traded by Jocketty as Reds GM:

Griffey
Dunn
Freel
Waring
Turner
Keppinger
EE
Stewart
Roenicke
Hairston
Manuel
Weathers
Gonzo


Players Traded for by Jocketty as Reds GM

Masset
Richar
Castillo
Buck
Owings
Hernandez
Sutton
Rolen
Weems
Balentien
Negron

So even if you count Rolen as mediocre talent, Jocketty has traded for 3 mediocre talents while trading away 7, and traded away two prospects while acquiring two prospects.

The three mediocre talents that were acquired filled huge holes that the team had; fifth starter, catcher and 3B/RH bat. The two prospects that were traded were from an area that the Reds had a surplus.

One might prefer the first list to the second list, one might prefer the team that started the season in '08 to this current team, but it really is hard to argue that Jocketty is draining the prospect well dry in order to acquire mediocre talent.

Spring~Fields
08-20-2009, 11:07 PM
(but it really is hard to argue that Jocketty is draining the prospect well dry in order to acquire mediocre talent.

I did not make that argument. My point is he has certain resources to work with. A lot of money is not one of them. Money if he did have it to work with would not guarantee quality productive players anyway, increasing his risk. That leaves him to trade off prospects. Time is the rest of the factor.

Wait and see.

Spring~Fields
08-20-2009, 11:20 PM
Players Traded for by Jocketty as Reds GM

Masset
Richar
Castillo
Buck
Owings
Hernandez
Sutton
Rolen
Weems
Balentien
Negron



How many of those are league average or difference makers?

TheNext44
08-21-2009, 01:55 AM
How many of those are league average or difference makers?

Granted, what Walt has brought in so far in not as impressive as what Wayne did. But the point I keep making about Jocketty is that his methodology is to build a solid foundation for an organization so that it can compete every year.

He has stayed away from the, go all in every year, win it now, form a championship team from the beginning of spring training mentality that has been the main reason why the Reds have floundered so much this decade.

I agree with you that if he were to fill holes, he will need to trade away prospects, and create a hole in the farm system. But I don't see him doing that. I see him slowly building depth in the organization without creating any more holes. If that means that the Reds don't compete next year, I think he is fine with that.

Jocketty has made clear he is thinking long term. He wants to build depth in the organization so that when it is time to go for it, he can do so without creating any more holes. The Reds are nowhere near that, which is why fans need to be patient.

Spring~Fields
08-21-2009, 02:50 AM
Granted, what Walt has brought in so far in not as impressive as what Wayne did. But the point I keep making about Jocketty is that his methodology is to build a solid foundation for an organization so that it can compete every year.

He has stayed away from the, go all in every year, win it now, form a championship team from the beginning of spring training mentality that has been the main reason why the Reds have floundered so much this decade.

I agree with you that if he were to fill holes, he will need to trade away prospects, and create a hole in the farm system. But I don't see him doing that. I see him slowly building depth in the organization without creating any more holes. If that means that the Reds don't compete next year, I think he is fine with that.

Jocketty has made clear he is thinking long term. He wants to build depth in the organization so that when it is time to go for it, he can do so without creating any more holes. The Reds are nowhere near that, which is why fans need to be patient.

I am not sure that we are seeing him do what you have written here. If he can accomplish that balance of growth and development, and in such volatility from multiple emotions, ego’s, to financial considerations that are involved from the various parties within, then he will be seen as a bit of a master at his craft. I believe though that he has factions within his camp pushing and pulling in different directions and I am not so sure that he has identified them as such.

The players that he appears to be working with, also appear to be the presence of two different mind sets, and two different directions on how to achieve their personal goals and not necessarily that of a sound and well ran organization. Again, we don’t have to be patient, because time is the factor that will make us wait and see.

I think that his words and his age groupings in major league player resources are in conflict or incongruent and are indicating an attempt to find present experience, while using the younger mantra to appease a certain segment of onlookers. If he goes with the experienced established major league talent, then it will come with a cost at a premium. I believe that is where ownership and the budget will come to an impasse with the general manager of operations and his field manager, the other faction.

In either case there are only so many ways that he can do something. I find it easiest to watch the resources, and to see what the returns are. Yet he has given us indicators which are better than words.

Ron Madden
08-21-2009, 03:28 AM
The way I see it Walt and Wayne are very much alike. Maybe it's time to rock the boat here and introduce a new line of thought to the whole organization.

princeton
08-21-2009, 09:39 AM
The way I see it Walt and Wayne are very much alike.


they're pretty different. Wayne took more risks and found four All-Stars (one of whom was traded to get the other). Walt's added none so far.

I think if the Reds can get close, then Walt can push them over the top. But he's in the wrong place for that right now. Reds would have been well-served to keep Wayne for a couple of more years to add talent, and then brought in Walt to fit the pieces together. Bums me out that they had that chance and let it slip

dumb owner. it runs in the city.

cincrazy
08-21-2009, 09:42 AM
Granted, what Walt has brought in so far in not as impressive as what Wayne did. But the point I keep making about Jocketty is that his methodology is to build a solid foundation for an organization so that it can compete every year.

He has stayed away from the, go all in every year, win it now, form a championship team from the beginning of spring training mentality that has been the main reason why the Reds have floundered so much this decade.

I agree with you that if he were to fill holes, he will need to trade away prospects, and create a hole in the farm system. But I don't see him doing that. I see him slowly building depth in the organization without creating any more holes. If that means that the Reds don't compete next year, I think he is fine with that.

Jocketty has made clear he is thinking long term. He wants to build depth in the organization so that when it is time to go for it, he can do so without creating any more holes. The Reds are nowhere near that, which is why fans need to be patient.


I don't think Jocketty is suited to think long term. The guy is old, he already has a world championship, he's been in the game forever, why will he want to stay around for a rebuilding project? And thinking long term in St. Louis wasn't his style. He was successful because he had financial backing from ownership and was able to take some shots.

He doesn't have that here. It's the same man in the GM chair, but different resources. And that makes all the difference in the world.

edabbs44
08-21-2009, 09:46 AM
they're pretty different. Wayne took more risks and found four All-Stars (one of whom was traded to get the other). Walt's added none so far.

"Found four all-stars" translates to 2 guys who played like all-stars only in the first half of 2008, one who was given the most money ever for his position in free agency and one who has been a legit all-star.

Let's be fair.

Walt has also added zero dumb $10MM+ contracts since he took over. How many did Wayne dole out in his tenure?

Falls City Beer
08-21-2009, 09:47 AM
I don't think Jocketty is suited to think long term. The guy is old, he already has a world championship, he's been in the game forever, why will he want to stay around for a rebuilding project? And thinking long term in St. Louis wasn't his style. He was successful because he had financial backing from ownership and was able to take some shots.

He doesn't have that here. It's the same man in the GM chair, but different resources. And that makes all the difference in the world.

Gillick picked up Wade, but Wade and company had assembled a farm system and young talent pipeline that Wayne was pretty clearly incapable of. Oh if Walt had had his Wade.

jojo
08-21-2009, 09:50 AM
Lets work out a deal where the Reds trade their ownership/FO for the Cards ownership/FO.

princeton
08-21-2009, 09:52 AM
"Found four all-stars" translates to 2 guys who played like all-stars only in the first half of 2008, one who was given the most money ever for his position in free agency and one who has been a legit all-star.


it'd be good if Walt would find good players too. we could use them.




Walt has also added zero dumb $10MM+ contracts since he took over.

until the Rolen trade, the guy's acted chicken. risk some mistakes, add some good players. you keep saying these are Wayne's contracts, but that hasn't been true for 18 months. other than AGonz, who was hurt, and CoCo, who had a no-trade, they're Walt's contracts. he runs this team. if Walt doesn't like Walt's contracts, then for god's sake trade them away. be a man.

flyer85
08-21-2009, 09:54 AM
In the end you will be defined by Ws and Ls. Making lists of who did what and acquired whom is an exercise in futility.

The Reds were a losing organization when they arrived and from where I sit they are going to still be a losing organization when they are gone.

There seems to be no long term plan (sorry but rhetoric doesn't cut it) on how to build a winning organization.

nate
08-21-2009, 10:29 AM
"Found four all-stars" translates to 2 guys who played like all-stars only in the first half of 2008, one who was given the most money ever for his position in free agency and one who has been a legit all-star.

Let's be fair.

Walt has also added zero dumb $10MM+ contracts since he took over. How many did Wayne dole out in his tenure?

He's added several dumb $1MM+ contracts since he took over. One of them has the second most PAs on the team, plays subpar defense and will double his salary next year.

MattyHo4Life
08-21-2009, 10:36 AM
I don't think Jocketty is suited to think long term. The guy is old, he already has a world championship, he's been in the game forever, why will he want to stay around for a rebuilding project? And thinking long term in St. Louis wasn't his style.

I agree. I don't know if Walt can do an actual rebuild He did some great things in St. Louis, but his time had come. There wasn't an outcry from Cardinals when he left/was fired. He lost a lot of support once he traded away Danny Haren, and his team was old with very little in the minors. The Cardinals wanted to rebuild their farm system, and they couldn't do it with Jocketty. I just don't see how Jocketty is a fit with the Reds. He likes to trade away prospects for established vets. Thatisn't what the Red need right now.

Falls City Beer
08-21-2009, 10:38 AM
It's not that Jocketty can't build a team; this isn't a case of teaching an old dog new tricks. He built a juggernaut in St. Louis from scratch. It's if the market will ever come around to favoring his style of GM-ing. There is a tide...

cincrazy
08-21-2009, 10:41 AM
It's not that Jocketty can't build a team; this isn't a case of teaching an old dog new tricks. He built a juggernaut in St. Louis from scratch. It's if the market will ever come around to favoring his style of GM-ing. There is a tide...

I agree to a certain extent. But a large part of him rebuilding St. Louis was finding two titanic stars, in Big Mac and Pujols. With Mcgwire he made a trade for a middle aged slugger, little did anyone know the PED explosion would turn him into the monster he became later on. And with Pujols... Walt had little, if anything, to do with that. It was luck. And finding that same luck in Cincy, with not nearly as much money to play with, will be tough.

MattyHo4Life
08-21-2009, 10:48 AM
It's not that Jocketty can't build a team; this isn't a case of teaching an old dog new tricks. He built a juggernaut in St. Louis from scratch. It's if the market will ever come around to favoring his style of GM-ing. There is a tide...


He can build a team with veterans. When he built the team in St. Louis, it was by trading prospects for veterans. It takes a financial commitment from the team though. The Cardinals payroll skyrocketted after he took over. In St. Louis, w had very few home grown products. They were either traded away, or were never drafted. The players the Cardinals have drafted th last couple years already look to be much better than anyone that Jocketty drafted in about 10 years. The few exceptions that I can think of are Drew, Ankiel, and Pujols (that was probably mostly luck since he was passed up so many rounds). Those were all many years ago though. Actually, the drafts are the main reason why Jocketty was forced out of St. Louis.

Falls City Beer
08-21-2009, 10:52 AM
He can build a team with veterans. When he built the team in St. Louis, it was by trading prospects for veterans. It takes a financial commitment from the team though. The Cardinals payroll skyrocketted after he took over. In St. Louis, w had very few home grown products. They were either traded away, or were never drafted. The players the Cardinals have drafted th last coupld years already look to be much better than anyone that Jocketty drafted in about 10 years. Actually, the drafts are the main reason why Jocketty was forced out of St. Louis.

The Cards' payroll is still high. What else is new?

What player of lasting value has been developed by the Cardinals since his firing who hasn't borne Jocketty's stamp?

That team you're enjoying? It's Jocketty's, not Mozeliak's.

cincrazy
08-21-2009, 10:53 AM
The Cards' payroll is still high. What else is new?

What player of lasting value has been developed by the Cardinals since his firing who hasn't borne Jocketty's stamp?

That team you're enjoying? It's Jocketty's, not Mozeliak's.

That team wasn't doing much of anything until acquiring DeRosa and Holliday. Which again, goes back to the ownership discussion.

Falls City Beer
08-21-2009, 10:55 AM
That team wasn't doing much of anything until acquiring DeRosa and Holliday. Which again, goes back to the ownership discussion.

Yeah, they were leading, but maybe that doesn't count.

westofyou
08-21-2009, 11:04 AM
Lets work out a deal where the Reds trade their ownership/FO for the Cards ownership/FO.

Cards owner already owned a piece of the Reds before (and the Stingers) plus daddy was the guy rode out of town for trading Robby and opposing the downtown stadium.

That trail has been rode.

MattyHo4Life
08-21-2009, 11:06 AM
The Cards' payroll is still high. What else is new?

What player of lasting value has been developed by the Cardinals since his firing who hasn't borne Jocketty's stamp?

That team you're enjoying? It's Jocketty's, not Mozeliak's.

Your right, the payroll is still high, and hopefully it stays that way. The Cards payroll was less than the Reds beforehe took over though. He was given a wad of money, and he spent it well.

It wasn't even been two full years since Walt officially left. So there isn't going to be a huge list of players developed and drafted in that time. You can call this team Walt's, but that just isn't so. This Cardinals team is much different than the team that started the season. The Cardinals were struggling, an everyone thoughtof them as "Pujols and then pray for rain". Most teams would walk Pujols and take their chances with the rest of the line-up. In a couple of months, Mo made a slew of moves to transform this team into a possible playoff team, into a playoff contender. The Cardinals just won 5 out of 7 against the Dodgers. I doubt they could have done that earlier in the season. He made a few trades, but they were the right moves.

edabbs44
08-21-2009, 11:08 AM
until the Rolen trade, the guy's acted chicken. risk some mistakes, add some good players. you keep saying these are Wayne's contracts, but that hasn't been true for 18 months. other than AGonz, who was hurt, and CoCo, who had a no-trade, they're Walt's contracts. he runs this team. if Walt doesn't like Walt's contracts, then for god's sake trade them away. be a man.

Arroyo is making Halladay like money and had a 4.77 ERA last year.

Harang, the same.

Those are pretty much no-trade clauses as well.

princeton
08-21-2009, 11:10 AM
Then boy JimBo has really worked for some bad owners...Oh wait he has. So maybe he is just "misunderstood".

he certainly went downhill very quickly after Marge, who put money on the major league table even as she took it away from the scouts.

I know that Bowden was shocked many times that he didn't have payroll that he'd thought he'd have. I suspect that promises were often made and then rescinded. DanO behaved as if he had same problem, and I suspect that WayneK wanted to spend money in very different ways than Cast did, and guess who won that payroll discussion? Walt acts like a guy that was jilted at the payroll altar.

it's a common Cincy GM thread. why these guys take these jobs and fail to expect payroll promises to be taken back is beyond me.

princeton
08-21-2009, 11:12 AM
Arroyo is making Halladay like money and had a 4.77 ERA last year.

Harang, the same.

Those are pretty much no-trade clauses as well.


Arroyo pitched well last year late, and had value when teams generally look for arms. Harang's always intriguing at the same time of year.

Walt, or Cast, just wanted to keep them in hopes of competing in 2009. that's on Walt.

edabbs44
08-21-2009, 11:30 AM
Arroyo pitched well last year late, and had value when teams generally look for arms. Harang's always intriguing at the same time of year.

Walt, or Cast, just wanted to keep them in hopes of competing in 2009. that's on Walt.

Arroyo 2008 ERA

Apr/Mar 6.97
May 3.74
June 8.26
July 4.45
August 2.61
Sept 3.78

Harang 2008 era

Apr/Mar 2.98
May 4.98
June 6.00
July 12.46 (one game, then injured)
Aug 8.41
Sept 3.07

Neither was intriguing at the deadline last year, especially based upon the commitments for 2009-10 as well.

These guys weren't moveable on July 31 last year, and I doubt anyone would have taken Arroyo's contract in August based upon one good month after a mess of the first 4. Harang, due to injury, isn't even on the table.

princeton
08-21-2009, 11:38 AM
yup, both threw well at times in 2008 and had windows for trades. Walt either waited in hopes of competing, or Walt/Cast liked the contracts.

like yourself, there are a lot of "can't do" people in the Reds FO.

edabbs44
08-21-2009, 11:45 AM
yup, both threw well at times in 2008 and had windows for trades. Walt either waited in hopes of competing, or Walt/Cast liked the contracts.

like yourself, there are a lot of "can't do" people in the Reds FO.

Seriously, stop it. I assume you are talking about that huge April/May window. When Walt was named GM on April 23.

And we all know how April/May is the hotbed of activity for overpriced pitching.

cincrazy
08-21-2009, 12:13 PM
Yeah, they were leading, but maybe that doesn't count.

I wasn't talking in terms of the division race, I was talking in terms of their ability to perform in the postseason. To me, they're now clearly the best team in the league. Prior to the two deals, they were just another slightly above average team in a muddled up NL Central.

Falls City Beer
08-21-2009, 12:18 PM
I wasn't talking in terms of the division race, I was talking in terms of their ability to perform in the postseason. To me, they're now clearly the best team in the league. Prior to the two deals, they were just another slightly above average team in a muddled up NL Central.

As soon as Carpenter returned, they left everyone in the dust. Holliday and DeRosa are just the extra shovel-tamps on the buried NL Central.

princeton
08-21-2009, 12:44 PM
Seriously, stop it. I assume you are talking about that huge April/May window. When Walt was named GM on April 23.

And we all know how April/May is the hotbed of activity for overpriced pitching.


striking fast is not exactly Wait Jocketty's MO, is it? you mean to tell me that at no point in 2008 could Walt move a guy who finished 4th in Cy Young voting in 2007? if so, that's feeble.

an opportunity wasted, if that's what he was hoping to do. but from what I can see, he wants to keep those pitchers and their contracts. at least, Cast does. even Ricciardi (Ricciardi!) can somehow move a really old third baseman yet get young arms.

Walt simply chooses not to move the more valuable commodity of pitching. so, these are now Walt's contracts not Wayne's. might as well enjoy them.

edabbs44
08-21-2009, 01:28 PM
striking fast is not exactly Wait Jocketty's MO, is it? you mean to tell me that at no point in 2008 could Walt move a guy who finished 4th in Cy Young voting in 2007? if so, that's feeble.

Harang started going in the tank in mid-May. How many established ML pitchers get dealt in May? Ever? Walt basically had one month to determine that Harang was going to bottom out and deal him at a time when teams never make substantial trades.

It takes two to tango.


an opportunity wasted, if that's what he was hoping to do. but from what I can see, he wants to keep those pitchers and their contracts. at least, Cast does. even Ricciardi (Ricciardi!) can somehow move a really old third baseman yet get young arms.

Walt simply chooses not to move the more valuable commodity of pitching. so, these are now Walt's contracts not Wayne's. might as well enjoy them.

If you choose to ignore the facts then I can't do anything for you. I guess, theoretically, Walt had a chance to trade Harang. He also had a chance to sign Teixeira this off-season. We should be murdering him for that instead.

princeton
08-21-2009, 01:38 PM
Harang started going in the tank in mid-May. How many established ML pitchers get dealt in May? Ever? Walt basically had one month to determine that Harang was going to bottom out and deal him at a time when teams never make substantial trades.

It takes two to tango.

"can't do that kind of stuff in May." "can't do that in just six weeks." "when was there time to do that?" "it takes two." "we don't do that kind of stuff in Cincinnati."

believe me, I do understand. I've been a Reds fan for a long time.

Spring~Fields
08-21-2009, 01:39 PM
He can build a team with veterans. When he built the team in St. Louis, it was by trading prospects for veterans. It takes a financial commitment from the team though. The Cardinals payroll skyrocketted after he took over. In St. Louis, w had very few home grown products. They were either traded away, or were never drafted. The players the Cardinals have drafted th last couple years already look to be much better than anyone that Jocketty drafted in about 10 years. The few exceptions that I can think of are Drew, Ankiel, and Pujols (that was probably mostly luck since he was passed up so many rounds). Those were all many years ago though. Actually, the drafts are the main reason why Jocketty was forced out of St. Louis.

Always good to have anothers perspective. Thank you.

The Reds though don't seem to be able to skyrocket payroll, so what in your opinion will Mr. Jocketty do with his Cincinnati team to at least get them to .500, a team that wins as much as they lose?

edabbs44
08-21-2009, 01:42 PM
"can't do that kind of stuff in May." "can't do that in just six weeks." "when was there time to do that?" "it takes two." "we don't do that kind of stuff in Cincinnati."

believe me, I do understand. I've been a Reds fan for a long time.

There are differences in those quotes. I agree that there are bs excuses that fly around sometimes, but established ML pitchers don't get traded in May all that often.

princeton
08-21-2009, 02:00 PM
established ML pitchers don't get traded in May all that often.

there's demand but no supply. teams hold onto their pitchers in case they can get into the race, then make a decision in late July as to whether or not they can compete. Padres had several offers for Jake Peavy this past May. Peavy later got traded in spite of being hurt and having a multi-year so even after Aaron got hurt in mid-2008 he probably could have been traded to Kooky Kenny Williams.

things CAN be done, if Cast wants them done.

TheNext44
08-21-2009, 02:03 PM
He can build a team with veterans. When he built the team in St. Louis, it was by trading prospects for veterans. It takes a financial commitment from the team though. The Cardinals payroll skyrocketted after he took over. In St. Louis, w had very few home grown products. They were either traded away, or were never drafted. The players the Cardinals have drafted th last couple years already look to be much better than anyone that Jocketty drafted in about 10 years. The few exceptions that I can think of are Drew, Ankiel, and Pujols (that was probably mostly luck since he was passed up so many rounds). Those were all many years ago though. Actually, the drafts are the main reason why Jocketty was forced out of St. Louis.

The current Cardinal team has 5 of 8 starters who are from the farm system and who were drafted by Jocketty:

Molina
Shoemaker
Pujols
Ryan
Rasmus

The reason why the cupboard was bare for so long, was that they had been winning for so long, which means lower draft picks, year after year. Unless you are the Yanks and Red Sox, it is nearly impossible to draft impact players in those draft slots on a consistent basis.

But Jocketty was always able to get talent in the back of the draft, which was essential to the Cardinals depth.

Here is a list of players that Jocketty drafted that became solid major league contributors:

Placido Polanco
Matt Morris
Junior Spivey
Cliff Politte
Brandon Looper
Randy Flores
Adam Kennedy
Rick Ankiel
Xavier Nady
J.D. Drew
Jack Wilson
Chris Duncan
Coco Crisp
Albert Pujols
Yadier Molina
Danny Haren
Joe Mather
Skip Shumaker
Keven Correia
Brad Thompson
Kyle McClellan
Brendon Ryan
Anthony Reyes
Jason Motte
Colby Rasmus
Mitchell Boggs
Chris Perez

27 players in 14 years, or around 2 a year. Not many stars, but a lot of production. If he can get 2 solid major leaguers out of every draft as GM of the Reds, the Reds will be competing for years to come.

cincrazy
08-21-2009, 02:08 PM
The current Cardinal team has 5 of 8 starters who are from the farm system and who were drafted by Jocketty:

Molina
Shoemaker
Pujols
Ryan
Rasmus

The reason why the cupboard was bare for so long, was that they had been winning for so long, which means lower draft picks, year after year. Unless you are the Yanks and Red Sox, it is nearly impossible to draft impact players in those draft slots on a consistent basis.

But Jocketty was always able to get talent in the back of the draft, which was essential to the Cardinals depth.

Here is a list of players that Jocketty drafted that became solid major league contributors:

Placido Polanco
Matt Morris
Junior Spivey
Cliff Politte
Brandon Looper
Randy Flores
Adam Kennedy
Rick Ankiel
Xavier Nady
J.D. Drew
Jack Wilson
Chris Duncan
Coco Crisp
Albert Pujols
Yadier Molina
Danny Haren
Joe Mather
Skip Shumaker
Keven Correia
Brad Thompson
Kyle McClellan
Brendon Ryan
Anthony Reyes
Jason Motte
Colby Rasmus
Mitchell Boggs
Chris Perez

27 players in 14 years, or around 2 a year. Not many stars, but a lot of production. If he can get 2 solid major leaguers out of every draft as GM of the Reds, the Reds will be competing for years to come.

But you can't give credit to just Jocketty for those picks. It's an organization as a whole. Yes, Jocketty played a role in the Cards success. But he wasn't the sole reason. It's a great organization, and they've been just as strong since he left, and will continue to be.

TheNext44
08-21-2009, 02:57 PM
But you can't give credit to just Jocketty for those picks. It's an organization as a whole. Yes, Jocketty played a role in the Cards success. But he wasn't the sole reason. It's a great organization, and they've been just as strong since he left, and will continue to be.

I agree. But you also can't say that Jocketty drafts poorly, which was my main point. That and the fact that he establishes a drafting philosophy of getting the most out your later picks in order to provide depth for the organization.

Top draft picks are a crap shoot, and depend on where you draft and money available for overslotting. But any team can be successful in the later picks if they have a solid scouting department and smart philosophy.

As for whose responsible for a draft, I think Jojo nailed it as to the role of the GM in terms of draft picks.


As some have pointed out, it's important to remember that GMs typically don't exert a great deal of influence over their org's draft day outside of budget-related issues. For instance, Bavasi had maybe just a tick over zilch to do with Fontaine's drafts in Seattle.

That said, presumably the GM has a much greater influence over choosing the guy whose job it is to make those draft decisions..... So there is some buck to duck so to speak....

MattyHo4Life
08-21-2009, 04:03 PM
Here is a list of players that Jocketty drafted that became solid major league contributors:

Placido Polanco
Matt Morris
Junior Spivey
Cliff Politte
Brandon Looper
Randy Flores
Adam Kennedy
Rick Ankiel
Xavier Nady
J.D. Drew
Jack Wilson
Chris Duncan
Coco Crisp
Albert Pujols
Yadier Molina
Danny Haren
Joe Mather
Skip Shumaker
Keven Correia
Brad Thompson
Kyle McClellan
Brendon Ryan
Anthony Reyes
Jason Motte
Colby Rasmus
Mitchell Boggs
Chris Perez

27 players in 14 years, or around 2 a year. Not many stars, but a lot of production. If he can get 2 solid major leaguers out of every draft as GM of the Reds, the Reds will be competing for years to come.

1) I wouldn't count players like Nady and Spivey that were drafted but unsigned. Since Jocketty is so involved with the draft, it is his responsability to draft a signable player.

2) I'd argue that players like Joe Mather and Anthony Reyes are not "solid" major league conributors.

Even a winning team can draft good players. No, you won't get #1 picks, but you can get god players if you are willing to pay the bonuses. Last year the Cardinalsrafted Brett Wallace (who brought a return of Matt Holliday, and this year they drafted Shelby Miller. The Cardinals gave Miller a 2.9Mil bonus, so they can afford it.

3) Jeff Luhnow took over the drafting responsabilities for the Cardinals in 2005So players like Rasmus and Perez are on Luhnow's watch, not Jocketty's. The main reason that Jocketty is no longer GM of the Cardinals is that Bill Dewitt Jr promoted Jeff Luhnow an put him in charge of the draft in 2005 to take a different approach than Jocketty did in th draft. Jocketty wanted to control th draft like he did before 2005.

MattyHo4Life
08-21-2009, 04:12 PM
As some have pointed out, it's important to remember that GMs typically don't exert a great deal of influence over their org's draft day outside of budget-related issues. For instance, Bavasi had maybe just a tick over zilch to do with Fontaine's drafts in Seattle.


I agree i most instances. Although, Jocketty is hands on with the draft. He wanted control of the draft, and he had it with the Cardinals until 2005. Jocketty left St. Louis for Cincinnati, because Bill Dewitt Jr wanted to go a different way with the draft.

GAC
08-21-2009, 05:06 PM
As soon as Carpenter returned, they left everyone in the dust. Holliday and DeRosa are just the extra shovel-tamps on the buried NL Central.

Don't sell the Holliday and DeRosa acquisitions short my friend. To assume that simply getting Carpenter back was what catapulted them to the top of this division is being short sighted of what the other two have contributed to an offense that was struggling.

And the Holliday and DeRosa acquisition are typical Jocketty moves. In the past, they were right up his alley.

The difference between the Card's and Red's FOs?.....


Cardinals general manager John Mozeliak said team chairman Bill DeWitt judged it a price worth paying. [note: Hey Bob! Didn't you learn anything under this guy?]

"Sometimes you have to look at short-term decisions vs. long-term planning and he recognized we have something special going on and didn't want to leave it for chance that things would just get better," Mozeliak said. "We understood the cost and we went ahead and did it."

The Cards not only identified needs, but filled them at a crucial time (the halfway point) when nobody in the Central was playing like they wanted to win it. Going into the AS break, the Reds were in 3rd place, behind the Cards and Brewers 4 games out.

Who was going to be that team to make those moves and "go for broke" to take command of this division?

Once again - the Cards.

And really, they weren't "go for broke" moves. The As are paying 1.5M of Holliday's remaining salary of 5.3M for '09 = 3.8M. And I'm pretty sure the Indians are paying the remainder of DeRosa's 09 money in exchange for reliever Perez and a PTBNL. If not, they still are only paying him around 2.5M for the remainder of the year. So look at what they got for minimal risk/investment. Two impact players and probably another division crown and trip to the post-season.

Now some may say "Yeah, but the Reds had some key injuries (so did the Cards), weren't really going anywhere anyway." And it's this same defeatist attitude that seems to be prevalent within this FO. I don't know if they could have competed or won this division in '09.... but they didn't even make the effort to do so when they were still in striking distance. They basically folded up the tent.

This FO continues to amaze me. They now claim they will lose 15M this year. Whether that is actually true or not is yet to be seen. But it is a further indictment - even after clearing out payroll last year - of the product they put on the field in '09.

And I really don't see any wholesale changes coming in the off-season because this FO refuses to acknowledge it's mistakes and do anything to correct them.

Our luck, they'll resign AGon at SS, but consider it a victory because they got him for less money then before.

MattyHo4Life
08-21-2009, 05:19 PM
As soon as Carpenter returned, they left everyone in the dust. Holliday and DeRosa are just the extra shovel-tamps on the buried NL Central.

Baseball Prospectus currently shows an 89% probability that the Cardinals will win the NL Central, with PECOTA odds slightly higher and the ELO-adjusted slightly lower.

To show how quickly things can change, the 7 day change for the Cardinals' playoff chances shows an increase of 12.32. The Cubs' playoff chances have sunk 9.9 over the same period. Immediately before the Matt Holliday deal their chances were at 47%.

Jpup
08-21-2009, 07:02 PM
You can say what you want about Krivsky and he is water under the bridge. Jocketty is the GM and he has done nothing since being hired to justify keeping his job.

Ron Madden
08-22-2009, 03:53 AM
In my opinion Walt and Wayne were cut from the same bolt of cloth. There's not a dimes worth of difference between the two. Both are stubborn and set in their ways. Both come from the network of Good Ol' Boys with the creed of go by the book and never rock the boat.

Mario-Rijo
08-22-2009, 11:18 AM
It's not that Jocketty can't build a team; this isn't a case of teaching an old dog new tricks. He built a juggernaut in St. Louis from scratch. It's if the market will ever come around to favoring his style of GM-ing. There is a tide...

Yeah he did do one thing right he hired a brilliant coaching staff, beyond that he didn't do anything a 5th grader couldn't have done. But keep on touting that as his doing. He's never won without LaRussa and most likely never will.

Mario-Rijo
08-22-2009, 11:19 AM
I agree i most instances. Although, Jocketty is hands on with the draft. He wanted control of the draft, and he had it with the Cardinals until 2005. Jocketty left St. Louis for Cincinnati, because Bill Dewitt Jr wanted to go a different way with the draft.

Very interesting Matty, good stuff.

RedEye
08-22-2009, 02:23 PM
In my opinion Walt and Wayne were cut from the same bolt of cloth. There's not a dimes worth of difference between the two. Both are stubborn and set in their ways. Both come from the network of Good Ol' Boys with the creed of go by the book and never rock the boat.

They may or may not be similar, but I think they both have their hands tied by a stubborn owner who wants to "win now" without paying the necessary amount to do so or understanding how a baseball roster is constructed. IMO, some of the most criticized moves on this board (The Trade, the Cordero signing and the Rolen acquisition) were all straight out of Castellini's panic mode playbook. Don't discount the role of our owner as an unruly variable that any Reds GM is going to have to deal with for the foreseeable future.