PDA

View Full Version : Can the Reds count on Joey Votto?



Redlegs
08-20-2009, 07:46 AM
I'll preface this post by saying Joey Votto is worth the price of admission to the ball park. I love his style of play and his no nonsense approach to the game.

With that said, I have to openly wonder if he's going to turn into one of these tragic "what might have been" athletes. He has an awful lot going on with his health and it's sad and unfortunate to see. Inner ear infections, dizziness, blurred vision, and the most troubling; anxiety.

Of course, these are no fault of his own. I just can't help but wonder, deep down, if the Reds will be able to count on Votto as part of the cornerstone of their franchise. I sure hope so, but I don't know.

Highlifeman21
08-20-2009, 07:50 AM
IMO, the worst thing the Reds could do between now and 2011 is give up on Joey Votto.

... that is unless they're blown away with a trade offer.

redsfandan
08-20-2009, 07:55 AM
I wouldn't give up on Votto either. But this only further emphasizes that we need to have a better backup plan for 1st next year. A MUCH better backup.

Always Red
08-20-2009, 08:00 AM
This team has huge problems, and Joey Votto's physical and/or mental problems are the least of it.

Votto and Phillips (with his sometimes, ahem.. "carefree" attitude to the game) are the best players this team has.

Build on them.

Votto is not a problem. He is one solution to the Reds problems.

osuceltic
08-20-2009, 09:09 AM
This team has huge problems, and Joey Votto's physical and/or mental problems are the least of it.

Votto and Phillips (with his sometimes, ahem.. "carefree" attitude to the game) are the best players this team has.

Build on them.

Votto is not a problem. He is one solution to the Reds problems.

When he's there. No one has said it, but this team's undoing started when Votto took all his time off. If he's going to be you 3-hole hitter and the cornerstone of your team, he needs to be there. You're not going to have another Joey Votto backing him up ready to just step in and keep things going when he decides he can't play. It doesn't work that way.

Always Red
08-20-2009, 09:34 AM
When he's there. No one has said it, but this team's undoing started when Votto took all his time off. If he's going to be you 3-hole hitter and the cornerstone of your team, he needs to be there. You're not going to have another Joey Votto backing him up ready to just step in and keep things going when he decides he can't play. It doesn't work that way.

People have indeed said it, and I have certainly considered it myself. I've decided that this team needs more guys like Votto. Would I prefer a guy with perhaps a stronger constitution, a guy who would run over his own mother to break up a double play? Yeah, maybe. I took 2 days off work when my own dad passed away- the day he died and the day of his funeral. Big deal though- we are all built differently.

I still say Votto is not the problem on this team. Let's start with fixing what is truly broken, then we can fine tune things like Votto's delicacy later.

If this team gets to the point where Joey Votto's penchant for pulling himself out of a game in the 1st inning is keeping this team from moving into first place, then yeah, let's move to fix it.

Given Dusty's quick pulling of guys from games of late, I am wondering if Dusty pulled him when he complained of blurred vision, or if Votto himself begged off?

bucksfan2
08-20-2009, 09:47 AM
There have been times when I have been playing a sport and have stepped the wrong way while looking at something, or caught a glimpse of the sun when I wasn't expecting it and my vision was blurry for 10 minutes or so. No big deal unless you have to go up and hit a 90 MPH fastball. IMO if Votto didn't have to bat in that inning he probably would have been back in the game.

HeatherC1212
08-20-2009, 11:11 AM
Wow, you know this board is in a bad place when people are starting to turn on the team's best player. :eek:

Joey can definitely be counted on for this team and for anyone to count him out is ridiculous IMO. The guy came back to the team last year after what had to be one of the saddest and most shocking things in his life to that point, he played strong right up til the end of the season, and he ended up being the ROY runner up (and would have won it in any other year). He took the time he could to be with his family but he came back and got right back into playing hard for the team. That doesn't sound like a guy who can't be counted on for your team. IMO, his undoing this year started last year because he was so anxious to get back to the field and play that he didn't really process what had happened to him and his family off the field. His life changed in a very drastic way during his very first season in the big leagues. I can't even imagine how much pressure and fear he had to have felt last year thinking about his family mourning at home without his dad and trying to support them and yet still try be there for his teammates here in Cincy. Have you ever really watched him during the games? I may or may not pay more attention to him than anyone else on the field ;) and it's fascinating to see how he plays the game. Joey has to be one of the most laid back guys I've ever seen off the field but when he's playing the game he is extremely intense and active. He's watching the opposing pitcher while he's in the on deck circle, he takes every at bat seriously and usually makes the other pitcher work hard, he's honked off beyond belief when he strikes out, and you can see a satisfied smile sometimes whenever he gets a hit, drives in a run, or hits a HR. You can tell he takes this game to heart and wants to compete and play well. He gives 150% when he's out on the field. I wish we had even just a half roster full of Vottos because I think that team would be extremely successful if they all cared and worked as hard as Joey. Yes, he's had some health issues this year but considering that most of the team has either been injured or started the year in AAA and wasn't supposed to be here in the first place, I would have been shocked had he gotten through the year unscathed by something. This has been one of the most snakebit Reds teams I've ever followed and the fact that Joey is still playing hard even though they're heading for another losing season shows a lot of character and drive IMO. Complain about the starting pitching, the manager, the injuries that have beaten the tar out of most of the team, or the fact that the rest of the team can't seem to hit it's way out of a wet paper bag, but my goodness, Joey is NOT the reason this team is where it is right now and anyone even suggesting that just blows my mind. :eek: (And for the record, I'm not saying Joey is perfect. I'm just saying he's not the problem with this team and that I feel he can be counted on to contribute in a big way for now and the future.)

/end rant (I've had a long week at work so I apologize for the rant but I think it's been backbuilding from reading all the negativity here lately. I was bound to break sooner or later, LOL :laugh: )

dfs
08-20-2009, 11:30 AM
Wow, you know this board is in a bad place when people are starting to turn on the team's best player.

People always turn on a bad teams best player. It's not new.

Much of the vitriol aimed at Dunn ((and Junior) and Larkin) was just that.

Always Red
08-20-2009, 11:38 AM
good rant, Heather! :thumbup:

BCubb2003
08-20-2009, 11:38 AM
It's an uncomfortable question, but I can understand where it comes from. Because Josh Hamilton is no longer a Red, we think of him as a great player but we couldn't rely on him to be around enough. Because Joey Votto is a Red, we take the reverse view.

And it's not easy for a bunch of knuckleheaded fans like us to figure out how to talk about these personal areas of a player's life.

Stormy
08-20-2009, 12:01 PM
/end rant (I've had a long week at work so I apologize for the rant but I think it's been backbuilding from reading all the negativity here lately. I was bound to break sooner or later, LOL :laugh: )

She's finally snapped! ;) I actually agree. Votto has worked through some pretty severe adversity, and assuming there aren't any additional health issues we don't know about, he's performed through them pretty admirably. He is exactly the type of guy I want to build this franchise around, in every respect (production, character, mental toughness). I'd take 8 more just like him, and unless there is some undisclosed illness we're not aware of, I think we can trust him 100%.

Has there been any further word on the diagnosis of the cause last night's blurred vision?

REDSEER
08-20-2009, 12:09 PM
Apparently everything is okay for now; Votto is in the lineup for today's game :)

SirFelixCat
08-20-2009, 12:21 PM
Apparently everything is okay for now; Votto is in the lineup for today's game :)

Yay!


And I don't see the OP as anyone turning on Joey. He's just concerned if what happened this year becomes chronic, is all. I mean, it always behooves you to have a backup plan for something like that and imo, that's all he was suggesting.

Spring~Fields
08-20-2009, 12:24 PM
She's finally snapped! ;) I actually agree. Votto has worked through some pretty severe adversity, and assuming there aren't any additional health issues we don't know about, he's performed through them pretty admirably. He is exactly the type of guy I want to build this franchise around, in every respect (production, character, mental toughness). I'd take 8 more just like him, and unless there is some undisclosed illness we're not aware of, I think we can trust him 100%.

Has there been any further word on the diagnosis of the cause last night's blurred vision?

Yes.

I do think his health should be more important than the games right now or any face saving for the manager, coaches and the front office that he might bring.

Spring~Fields
08-20-2009, 12:40 PM
by JohnFay at 8/20/2009 11:14 AM EDT on Cincinnati.com

Joey Votto's blurred vision was caused by a "retinal migrane."

"Right in between rain delay (and the game), a blurry spot popped up," he said. "It expanded during the game. I told Dusty (Baker) I had to come out of the game. About 25 minutes after I came out of the game, I laid down and dissipated. A pretty heavy headache popped up."

"I had my eyes checked. They said my eyes were plenty fine. It was just a visual migraine. They called it a retinal migraine."

Votto had never had one before.

"Never," he said. "That's why it was so scary. The vision in my left eye, it started with a blurry spot, then vision in left eye -- I wouldn't say it was gone -- but I couldn't see anything."

Votto has good perfect normally. He was not given medication.

Votto doesn't think it was related to the stress issues that put him on the disabled list for 21 games but he didn't rule it out.

"No, I don't think so," he said. "The doctor said it could be stress related. It's been kind of stressful lately with all the losing. It possibly could be. I'm not going to say yes or no on that one. It was a really odd occurrence. I hope it doesn't happen again."

Highlifeman21
08-20-2009, 12:41 PM
Wow, you know this board is in a bad place when people are starting to turn on the team's best player. :eek:



So I guess when the Reds traded Dunn, Dunn passed the torch to Votto?

So does that mean we'll run Votto out of Cincinnati after 7.5 seasons, in 2014?

fearofpopvol1
08-20-2009, 12:41 PM
i don't think any team should ever count on just "one" player...unless you're the cardinals maybe.

i think joey will be fine long-term. i really do.

Chip R
08-20-2009, 01:00 PM
i don't think any team should ever count on just "one" player...unless you're the cardinals maybe.


Well, Pujols isn't always in the best of health and he's not going to get healthier as he gets older. Of course he's still, what, 22? :lol:

As for Votto, it's a legitimate concern. I think it's naive to think that all the stress problems are behind him just as it was naive to think all of Josh Hamilton's struggles with substance abuse was behind him.

Being concerned about Votto is the same as being concerned Scott Rolen can't play a full season. The only difference is, one guy's injury history is physical and the other's is mental. The blurred vision was similar to the symptoms he had earlier this season so it's natural to be concerned.

fearofpopvol1
08-20-2009, 01:10 PM
Well, Pujols isn't always in the best of health and he's not going to get healthier as he gets older. Of course he's still, what, 22? :lol:

As for Votto, it's a legitimate concern. I think it's naive to think that all the stress problems are behind him just as it was naive to think all of Josh Hamilton's struggles with substance abuse was behind him.

Being concerned about Votto is the same as being concerned Scott Rolen can't play a full season. The only difference is, one guy's injury history is physical and the other's is mental. The blurred vision was similar to the symptoms he had earlier this season so it's natural to be concerned.

Pujols has averaged 155 games a season since coming to The Show. And that includes a year (2006) where he endured a legitimate DL trip (a season in which he still was able to play (143 games). He's holding his own IMO.

Votto did not have any (known) mental injuries like this in his minor league career. Granted, he also didn't lose his father in the minors, but there's no conclusive evidence that these mental issues are here to stay.

savafan
08-20-2009, 01:22 PM
Votto has good perfect normally.

I'd like to ask John Fay just what the hell this sentence means?!?! :confused:

nate
08-20-2009, 01:24 PM
I'd like to ask John Fay just what the hell this sentence means?!?! :confused:

He had Johny Cueto "gonig" on the DL yesterday!

Spring~Fields
08-20-2009, 01:24 PM
I'd like to ask John Fay just what the hell this sentence means?!?! :confused:

I thought that guy wrote like I do. Maybe I should apply. I don't have a clue what he is talking about. :)

HeatherC1212
08-20-2009, 01:33 PM
As for Votto, it's a legitimate concern. I think it's naive to think that all the stress problems are behind him just as it was naive to think all of Josh Hamilton's struggles with substance abuse was behind him.

Being concerned about Votto is the same as being concerned Scott Rolen can't play a full season. The only difference is, one guy's injury history is physical and the other's is mental. The blurred vision was similar to the symptoms he had earlier this season so it's natural to be concerned.

It's great to be concerned for our players (especially our best player) but I have to say two other things regarding this situation and then I'll shut up about it. :p:

One, there's a huge difference between what Josh went through in his past and what Joey is going through this year. Josh spent years messing himself up with all kinds of drugs and a relapse from him, while really sad IMO, didn't totally surprise me. Being an addict doesn't just go away; you have to work on that for the rest of your life. Joey doesn't have years of drug abuse on his body and a battle to stay sober going on while he's playing baseball. He did have a traumatic experience losing his father last year that he admittingly didn't deal with very well. We have no clue how it will continue to affect him for this season or beyond but missing your father and trying to stay sober are quite different IMO. I think his circumstances are quite different from Josh's and I don't think comparing them works very well. I do see how the struggles might be similar but I don't see Joey as having some type of relapse now that he's gotten past the first year after his father's death (which is the hardest thing to do IMO).

Two, does Joey's 'mental' illness history count as being similar to Rolen's? Joey's only been with the Reds for not even two years now and as far as I can tell, he doesn't have much of an injury history at all, mentally or physically, although I don't know as much about his minor league years up until 2006-07. Comparing the two of them doesn't seem quite right either although I can see where you're coming from a bit. I don't think anyone on the club has gone through what Joey has this year and yet the guy never gets a day off, he works his behind off to improve as a player, and he's been carrying this team on his shoulders offensively for most of the season. I guess I don't feel like he's earned the skepticism that's been suggested and he definitely shouldn't be compared to Rolen who sure seems like an accident waiting to happen. I like the guy a lot but dang, how do the snakebit Reds keep him healthy for the next year and a half?! LOL :laugh:

And for the record, I've had migraines start with my eyes before and they are awful. I actually had one a couple weeks ago that totally wiped me out. I ended up staying home from work that day because I couldn't see enough to drive to work. I was able to get some rest and take some medicine for that day and then I was fine the next day so I would imagine Joey is all right too.

OK, I'm done being Joey's extreme fangirl and am now going to go follow the game thread and hope Joey goes 4-5 today with two HRs to back up Harang and give him some actual run support, LOL :thumbup:

Redlegs
08-20-2009, 06:02 PM
Yay!


And I don't see the OP as anyone turning on Joey. He's just concerned if what happened this year becomes chronic, is all. I mean, it always behooves you to have a backup plan for something like that and imo, that's all he was suggesting.
Thanks for understanding my point. It seems people read what they want to read. In no way am I "turning" on Joey Votto. I think he's a tremendous talent. All I'm saying is when a player faces the kind of problems he's had, it can make life difficult, let alone baseball.

Anxiety is a pretty big deal. Just ask anyone who's suffered from it. I'm just openly wondering what many Reds fans has had to think about if they're in touch with this team.

Kc61
08-20-2009, 06:06 PM
Some guys have physical or other issues that make it hard for them to play 162 games. They still can be very valuable. You just need a good bench.

Redlegs
08-20-2009, 06:45 PM
I should have phrased the question as "With some of the issues he's faced, are you concerned about Joey Votto's durability/reliability in the future?"

Most fans would have to say yes. It is a definate concern. If not, you have to be looking through rose colored glasses.

Look, I want him to be healthy and play well. Like I said in the original post; I'd pay money to watch him play. That's not the point. The point is the aforementioned health of Joey Votto and the concerns that might arise from that.

cincrazy
08-20-2009, 06:50 PM
When he's there. No one has said it, but this team's undoing started when Votto took all his time off. If he's going to be you 3-hole hitter and the cornerstone of your team, he needs to be there. You're not going to have another Joey Votto backing him up ready to just step in and keep things going when he decides he can't play. It doesn't work that way.

I don't think he decided he couldn't play. That's a bit ridiculous to say that. Baseball, and this crappy franchise, is the least of his worries. He needs to get himself fixed, and if that means taking a prolonged leave of absence, so be it.

RANDY IN INDY
08-20-2009, 06:58 PM
It's great to be concerned for our players (especially our best player) but I have to say two other things regarding this situation and then I'll shut up about it. :p:

One, there's a huge difference between what Josh went through in his past and what Joey is going through this year. Josh spent years messing himself up with all kinds of drugs and a relapse from him, while really sad IMO, didn't totally surprise me. Being an addict doesn't just go away; you have to work on that for the rest of your life. Joey doesn't have years of drug abuse on his body and a battle to stay sober going on while he's playing baseball. He did have a traumatic experience losing his father last year that he admittingly didn't deal with very well. We have no clue how it will continue to affect him for this season or beyond but missing your father and trying to stay sober are quite different IMO. I think his circumstances are quite different from Josh's and I don't think comparing them works very well. I do see how the struggles might be similar but I don't see Joey as having some type of relapse now that he's gotten past the first year after his father's death (which is the hardest thing to do IMO).

Two, does Joey's 'mental' illness history count as being similar to Rolen's? Joey's only been with the Reds for not even two years now and as far as I can tell, he doesn't have much of an injury history at all, mentally or physically, although I don't know as much about his minor league years up until 2006-07. Comparing the two of them doesn't seem quite right either although I can see where you're coming from a bit. I don't think anyone on the club has gone through what Joey has this year and yet the guy never gets a day off, he works his behind off to improve as a player, and he's been carrying this team on his shoulders offensively for most of the season. I guess I don't feel like he's earned the skepticism that's been suggested and he definitely shouldn't be compared to Rolen who sure seems like an accident waiting to happen. I like the guy a lot but dang, how do the snakebit Reds keep him healthy for the next year and a half?! LOL :laugh:

And for the record, I've had migraines start with my eyes before and they are awful. I actually had one a couple weeks ago that totally wiped me out. I ended up staying home from work that day because I couldn't see enough to drive to work. I was able to get some rest and take some medicine for that day and then I was fine the next day so I would imagine Joey is all right too.

OK, I'm done being Joey's extreme fangirl and am now going to go follow the game thread and hope Joey goes 4-5 today with two HRs to back up Harang and give him some actual run support, LOL :thumbup:

Nice post, Heather!:)

jojo
08-20-2009, 06:59 PM
After the way this season is going, I'm concerned about everything. It wouldn't shock me if the new scoreboard toppled onto the playing field and crushed Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Volquez, and Cueto in one fell swoop.

I'm only half kidding.

Redlegs
08-20-2009, 07:17 PM
Nice post, Heather!:)

Obviously she's not concerned with Votto's past problems and feels he's going to be there in the future. I hope she's right.

HeatherC1212
08-20-2009, 09:25 PM
Obviously she's not concerned with Votto's past problems and feels he's going to be there in the future. I hope she's right.

I hope I'm right too but now I'm still trying to figure out what 'past problems' you're talking about with Joey. Can you elaborate more on what you mean? As far as I can tell, he's had ONE major health problem and that was losing his father last year and not dealing properly with the feelings that come from losing a parent (which admittingly don't really go away). It will always be on his mind I'm sure but I don't think it's going to consume him like it did last season and the early part of this season because he's finally sought help for his situation. I really don't think this is something that's going to continually bother him though. He doesn't have an injury history that we know of, he's not one to beg out of games unless there's something going on where he could hurt himself (like last night when his vision got messed up), and he's probably the most intense guy on the team when they're playing a game. I would totally be on board with a team full of Joeys playing for Cincy. I promise I'm not trying to argue or anything. I guess I'm just trying to figure out how Joey suddenly got a 'history' of problems when most of his troubles this year were all related to losing his father. :confused:

And darn it all I said I was done in here but I guess I can never really go away when it comes to talking about Joey, LOL :laugh:

Redlegs
08-20-2009, 09:48 PM
I hope I'm right too but now I'm still trying to figure out what 'past problems' you're talking about with Joey. Can you elaborate more on what you mean? I'm talking about the seriousness of anxiety, Heather. It leads to other problems. When you take the appropriate meds for it, you can become a zombie. Does everyone really think that his "blurred vision" or "inner ear infection" that caused dizziness are seperate issues? Really? I don't. Anxiety is a MF'er. I have it and I can tell you that you never know when it's going to hit. Doctors can't do a damn thing about it other to prescribe stuff. People can tell him "Relax". Easier said than done.

AGAIN, I'm not bashing Joey. He's my favorite Red. I have my little 2 year old girl saying VOTTOOOOOO. I'm not taking shots at Joey but the question is a fair one.

Big Klu
08-22-2009, 02:16 AM
And I don't see the OP as anyone turning on Joey. He's just concerned if what happened this year becomes chronic, is all. I mean, it always behooves you to have a backup plan for something like that and imo, that's all he was suggesting.

Maybe the backup plan for the future is Yonder Alonso.





Votto has good perfect normally.


I'd like to ask John Fay just what the hell this sentence means?!?! :confused:

It means,

"All your base are belong to us." -- J.F.