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View Full Version : Maybe we need steroids in baseball



steig
08-21-2009, 10:50 PM
Maybe baseball fans have been wrong about steroids and PEDs being bad for baseball. Maybe PEDs are the best thing for small and middle market teams. Since drug testing has been implemented it is very rare for a player in their early to mid 30ís to receive a long term contract from teams because they know the players skills will diminish with age, as they should. Even Cashman reportedly preferred not to resign A-Rod when he opted out of his contract two years ago because he didnít want to pay a player in his late 30ís and early 40ís and extreme salary. During the prime steroid years players it was common to give a 5- 6 year deal to players in their early thirties and expect them to produce until they turned 40. I believe part of this reason was because steroids inflated the market of above average players available to teams. The big market teams couldnít sign all the talent because there was a lot of talent to go around. Teams were also able to completely rebuild with free agents in the off season if they wanted to spend the money, like the 1997 Marlins.
Today it seems like fewer and fewer big time free agents become available in their prime years. Teams trade them off with 1 to 2 years of arbitration remaining because the players will command to much money in arbitration and they want to get something in return. Because small and middle market teams have very little room for error in developing a winning team. They canít afford to stupid free agent signing (See Cincinnati for an example) so the prefer to have plenty of prospects. During the steroid era it was easier for small and mid market teams to get an above average player at a decent salary to try and win, possibly leading them to hold on to there own talent through their arbitration years. Plenty of steroid players helped mid market teams win or compete, (possible players like Brady Anderson, Brian Giles, Benito Santiago, Luis Gonzales, etc). These guys werenít super stars but they were all-star level players with the aid of steroids and there were a lot of them to go around the league. Which allowed for some room for error in building your team. It was easier to go out in free agency and add on to your team or to take on a contract in the middle of the season. Teams didnít have to be perfect timing the development of young talent to win together.
Now with PED testing this above average tier of steroid players seems to have been greatly diminished allowing for the best players to command such high salaries that only the biggest teams can afford them and forcing the rest of the league to settle for average and below average players.
I think baseball fans may have been wrong about PEDs, maybe we need them to see our teams win and more competitive balance. It certainly seems like it would be a lot easier to allow PEDs in baseball than to get a salary cap for the league.

Natty Redlocks
08-22-2009, 12:13 AM
Good luck with this. Personally, I think the whole thing is just an extension of the same drug hysteria that fills our prisons with nonviolent "offenders" so there's no room for the real criminals. Bottom line, there's so much at stake, fighting it is foolish to begin with. Not to mention the hypocrisy of condemning a trend that saved the league from fading into oblivion.

Captain Hook
08-22-2009, 04:50 AM
This is a touchy subject that many hate to bring up.I for one don't mind discussing it for one reason.

It's perfectly acceptable today for any of us to go out and get drugs/prescription drugs to help us get buy and do our everyday jobs.We live in a competitive world where results alone matter. In most cases it does not matter how we get those results to a certain degree.

Now I'm talking about legal drugs and that's it.But lets define legal drugs(my definition might be wrong but it doesn't matter).Drugs that are not harmful in the short and long term and also that would not be habit forming is a legal drug.Well what happens when steroids or HGH or what ever drugs helps athletes preform at a higher level become exactly that?Me and you can take them but guys paid to preform at a high level can't?So basically 20 years from now I will be able to go to the local playground and find better athletes there then what I see on TV.Lets wake up and realize that the steroid era will not be a black eye but the beginning of what future athletics will become.I know it's hard to swallow but how else will it play out?Maybe everyone will forget that drugs can help us be better and not try to make them completely safe.

Carin4Narron
08-22-2009, 10:23 AM
So you want players to risk their lives for your own entertainment and/or self worth?

Mods please close this stupid thread!

steig
08-22-2009, 10:54 AM
So you want players to risk their lives for your own entertainment and/or self worth?

Mods please close this stupid thread!

You need to remember the FDA and AMA did not want steroids to be listed as narcotics when the government held hearing on the safety of steroids in the 1980's.

Carin4Narron
08-22-2009, 11:45 AM
What killed Ken Caminti and Lyle Alzado,dude? Steriods short your life and nobody seems to give a s@!# !

Griffey012
08-22-2009, 12:28 PM
What killed Ken Caminti and Lyle Alzado,dude? Steriods short your life and nobody seems to give a s@!# !

Alcohol and Cocaine had a lot more to do with it than steroids. The problem with steroids is with people begin to abuse them, which is the same thing with any sort of substance.

Carin4Narron
08-22-2009, 12:39 PM
alcohol and cocaine had a lot more to do with it than steroids. The problem with steroids is with people begin to abuse them, which is the same thing with any sort of substance. you can't not be serious??????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????

Griffey012
08-22-2009, 02:18 PM
you can't not be serious??????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????

Nope, I am serious. http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/6252095/

steig
08-22-2009, 03:25 PM
What killed Ken Caminti and Lyle Alzado,dude? Steriods short your life and nobody seems to give a s@!# !

Alzado's own doctors stated that his steroid use would not have caused the brain tumor. The media chose to buy Alzado's story, swaying Americans against steroids. The biggest problem with steroids is liver toxicity and becoming addicted and using to much, much like alcoholism.

Many Americans including a lot of baseball players have already shown a willingness to use steroids. I'm not going to determine whether steroid use is right or wrong because you can go around that issue for a long time. I'm just trying to point out that removing PEDs from baseball may have made it harder for small to mid market teams to win. The game has changed with the removal of PEDs and will require teams to adjust. I just think it will be harder on small teams to compete now than it was in the 90's and early 00's.

FlyerFanatic
08-22-2009, 03:45 PM
Alzado's own doctors stated that his steroid use would not have caused the brain tumor. The media chose to buy Alzado's story, swaying Americans against steroids. The biggest problem with steroids is liver toxicity and becoming addicted and using to much, much like alcoholism.

Many Americans including a lot of baseball players have already shown a willingness to use steroids. I'm not going to determine whether steroid use is right or wrong because you can go around that issue for a long time. I'm just trying to point out that removing PEDs from baseball may have made it harder for small to mid market teams to win. The game has changed with the removal of PEDs and will require teams to adjust. I just think it will be harder on small teams to compete now than it was in the 90's and early 00's.

I dont think PEDs are gone as much as you'd like to think. I do imagine it has slimmed down a lot compared to the 90s early 00's but give it time, say 10-15 yrs it wouldnt surprise me to see HGH being used widespread. By that time something else will be on the rise waiting. Athletes are extreme competitors, always looking for an edge above everyone else, they'll find a way to maximize that.

Carin4Narron
08-23-2009, 10:07 AM
Nope, I am serious. http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/6252095/ What made him take the drugs?

Carin4Narron
08-23-2009, 10:18 AM
Alzado's own doctors stated that his steroid use would not have caused the brain tumor. The media chose to buy Alzado's story, swaying Americans against steroids.
.
What? Maybe his doctor's were trying to cover their own butt because they gave him the steriods. Ever think of that? I saw a interview with Alzado on the ESPN show UP CLOSE with Roy Firestone, Alzado himself said taking steriods was a cause of his health problems.

steig
08-23-2009, 10:36 AM
What? Maybe his doctor's were trying to cover their own butt because they gave him the steriods. Ever think of that? I saw a interview with Alzado on the ESPN show UP CLOSE with Roy Firestone, Alzado himself said taking steriods was a cause of his health problems.

THat was the entire point about Alzado, he claimed steroids caused his cancer, doctors never did. I also believe if it was true he would be the only person ever to have gotten a brain tumor from steroids.

Fans have no problem with the idea of football players taking steroids. We only care about how long they are suspended for and when they can return to the field because fans just want to see their team win. Why isn't baseball this way?

Carin4Narron
08-23-2009, 03:54 PM
THat was the entire point about Alzado, he claimed steroids caused his cancer, doctors never did. I also believe if it was true he would be the only person ever to have gotten a brain tumor from steroids.

Fans have no problem with the idea of football players taking steroids. We only care about how long they are suspended for and when they can return to the field because fans just want to see their team win. Why isn't baseball this way?

Personally, I have a problem with both baseball players and football players taking steroids. It's cheating, but more importantly they are taking their own health in their own hands for personal wealth. It saddens me that I seem to be in the minority while discussing this issue!

Natty Redlocks
08-23-2009, 04:17 PM
Personally, I have a problem with both baseball players and football players taking steroids. It's cheating, but more importantly they are taking their own health in their own hands for personal wealth. It saddens me that I seem to be in the minority while discussing this issue!

Say what? Obviously the cheating is a real issue, but their personal health (and wealth) is their own business. And believe me, you're only in the minority in this thread; most people are way more sanctimonious about steroids than you are.

Carin4Narron
08-24-2009, 09:30 AM
Say what? Obviously the cheating is a real issue, but their personal health (and wealth) is their own business. And believe me, you're only in the minority in this thread; most people are way more sanctimonious about steroids than you are. So it's ok, if the players endanger their health as long as your team wins so you feel better for yourself? Pitaful!

Natty Redlocks
08-24-2009, 02:12 PM
So it's ok, if the players endanger their health as long as your team wins so you feel better for yourself? Pitaful!

Of course it's okay, whether "my team" wins or not. If you're an adult, you have the right to decide what to do with your body, which is your property. It's the most basic freedom there is.

Captain Hook
08-24-2009, 05:25 PM
Of course it's okay, whether "my team" wins or not. If you're an adult, you have the right to decide what to do with your body, which is your property. It's the most basic freedom there is.

I'm not really on Carin4Narrons side on this one but in his defense it's not a basic freedom to take illegal drugs.As long as steroids are considered just that they shouldn't be allowed in baseball.Now if they ever become legal then it's a whole new ballgame.What we now look at as a tainted era in the sport may well be looked at in a different light if that ever does happen.As it is right now I think that anything that you can buy over the counter legally should be permitted in the sport.You also can't hold something against someone because they at one time took something that was legal then later became illegal.Within the law these guys should be able to do what they want with their bodies.

Carin4Narron
08-24-2009, 07:42 PM
Of course it's okay, whether "my team" wins or not. If you're an adult, you have the right to decide what to do with your body, which is your property. It's the most basic freedom there is.

What if was your son, a family member, or a close friend doing that crap to get ''better''? Would you think differently?

nemesis
08-24-2009, 07:58 PM
What if was your son, a family member, or a close friend doing that crap to get ''better''? Would you think differently?

Ok as somone who actually uses them I'll chime in. Yes they can cause health problems in the long term if abused, Yes they can shorten your life span if not cycled properly. No they DO NOT cause brain cancer. Yes they can make you a bit moody...

But so does eating Cheeseburgers, Steaks, French Fries, Eggs and Pizza with your Coffee, Coke products, whole milk and Kool Aid and when your done you have a Cigerette or a Stogie or a flavored Cigar and your probally working in a factory or a high stress office job or your an even higher stress buisness owner who doesn't get 8 hours sleep. Unless you take your Ambien to sleep and your Adarol to wake up and face the day, that is until you get a headache and take a handful of Excederin. When your so stressed at the end of the day don't forget your Zaney! Of course don't forget being obese or living with someone who is a b!$@h so you need to take a Viagra, which elevated your heart rate and blood pressure just so your able to perform. ALL of them shorten your life or ruin your health. PED usually coinside with lean meats, exercise, vitamins and sex with multipule women which isnt healthy but hey we all have our vices. It all boils down to one thing.... It's about abuse. Either with PED's or McDonald's. To much of anything will kill you. I'd rather die on a tread mill than in a drive thru.

steig
08-24-2009, 09:43 PM
What if was your son, a family member, or a close friend doing that crap to get ''better''? Would you think differently?

No, I wouldn't. I know steroids can be used safely and that the common information associated with them is exaggerated. i would be far more concerned about the friend or family member that abused alcohol, used hard core narcotics, or needed anti-depressants.

But my original point was could baseball be better for the fans and allow more teams to compete if steroids were allowed?

Natty Redlocks
08-24-2009, 10:34 PM
No, I wouldn't. I know steroids can be used safely and that the common information associated with them is exaggerated. i would be far more concerned about the friend or family member that abused alcohol, used hard core narcotics, or needed anti-depressants.

But my original point was could baseball be better for the fans and allow more teams to compete if steroids were allowed?

Sorry about derailing your thread. To actually answer your question, I think it's a very valid point. I know I'm sure hoping Rolen is planning on juicing next year. Yeah, I'm joking, but only sort of. The reality is there really are only one or two really good players available every year, and the competition for them is so fierce the smaller market teams don't stand a chance. It would be nice if MLB (and the fans) weren't so precious about the old guys and their records. Babe Ruth never had to face the kind of pitching Barry Bonds faced. Not even close, and that's a fact. You simply can't compare players from different eras because the game is constantly changing whether anyone likes it or not. It's supposed to be fun for the fans and by god the steroid era was tons of fun until the wrong guy broke the wrong record and everyone started whining about it. So yes, hell yes baseball would be better for the fans and allow more teams to compete if steroids were allowed; we know this because it WAS better for the fans and DID allow more teams to compete when everyone pretended steroids weren't all over the place when clearly they were. And the hypocrisy just drives me nuts. MLB and every team and their fans all benefitted from the steroid era and now every is so appalled at every revelation that mysteriously leaks out years after someone tested positive. Let's just get over it, enjoy some damn baseball and break some dead geezers' records while we're at it. I thank you all in advance for your overwhelming support.

Carin4Narron
08-25-2009, 09:52 AM
No, I wouldn't. I know steroids can be used safely and that the common information associated with them is exaggerated. i would be far more concerned about the friend or family member that abused alcohol, used hard core narcotics, or needed anti-depressants.

But my original point was could baseball be better for the fans and allow more teams to compete if steroids were allowed?

You are a sad person to me. Steriods are ILLEGAL!!!!!!!! You guys don't give a s@it! That's beyond me!I am done!

Newman4
08-25-2009, 10:30 AM
Smoking has been shown to be worse for people that all of the drugs mentioned, yet somehow it is still legal.

Caveman Techie
08-25-2009, 12:04 PM
You are a sad person to me. Steriods are ILLEGAL!!!!!!!! You guys don't give a s@it! That's beyond me!I am done!

So was I breaking the law when my DR. prescribed steroids for me when I had a bulging disc in my back? Steroids are not illegal if they are prescribed by a DR. for a valid medical reason. The question is whether or not recovering from the grind of a baseball season or a workout session is a valid reason?

nemesis
08-25-2009, 12:11 PM
You are a sad person to me. Steriods are ILLEGAL!!!!!!!! You guys don't give a s@it! That's beyond me!I am done!

We do care we are just able to see past FDA propaganda and have done actual research that shows that they are no more unhealthy for you than almost anything you put in your body daily.

bounty37h
08-25-2009, 12:29 PM
Maybe baseball fans have been wrong about steroids and PEDs being bad for baseball. Maybe PEDs are the best thing for small and middle market teams. Since drug testing has been implemented it is very rare for a player in their early to mid 30ís to receive a long term contract from teams because they know the players skills will diminish with age, as they should. Even Cashman reportedly preferred not to resign A-Rod when he opted out of his contract two years ago because he didnít want to pay a player in his late 30ís and early 40ís and extreme salary. During the prime steroid years players it was common to give a 5- 6 year deal to players in their early thirties and expect them to produce until they turned 40. I believe part of this reason was because steroids inflated the market of above average players available to teams. The big market teams couldnít sign all the talent because there was a lot of talent to go around. Teams were also able to completely rebuild with free agents in the off season if they wanted to spend the money, like the 1997 Marlins.
Today it seems like fewer and fewer big time free agents become available in their prime years. Teams trade them off with 1 to 2 years of arbitration remaining because the players will command to much money in arbitration and they want to get something in return. Because small and middle market teams have very little room for error in developing a winning team. They canít afford to stupid free agent signing (See Cincinnati for an example) so the prefer to have plenty of prospects. During the steroid era it was easier for small and mid market teams to get an above average player at a decent salary to try and win, possibly leading them to hold on to there own talent through their arbitration years. Plenty of steroid players helped mid market teams win or compete, (possible players like Brady Anderson, Brian Giles, Benito Santiago, Luis Gonzales, etc). These guys werenít super stars but they were all-star level players with the aid of steroids and there were a lot of them to go around the league. Which allowed for some room for error in building your team. It was easier to go out in free agency and add on to your team or to take on a contract in the middle of the season. Teams didnít have to be perfect timing the development of young talent to win together.
Now with PED testing this above average tier of steroid players seems to have been greatly diminished allowing for the best players to command such high salaries that only the biggest teams can afford them and forcing the rest of the league to settle for average and below average players.
I think baseball fans may have been wrong about PEDs, maybe we need them to see our teams win and more competitive balance. It certainly seems like it would be a lot easier to allow PEDs in baseball than to get a salary cap for the league.

How is that fair to those who dont want to risk their own health, or even their own personal morals, and dont want to do steroids?

nemesis
08-25-2009, 04:28 PM
How is that fair to those who dont want to risk their own health, or even their own personal morals, and dont want to do steroids?

Same as it is for the guys who workout all offseason vs the guys who decide to sit on the couch or party around the globe. Its all personal choice.

bounty37h
08-25-2009, 05:56 PM
Same as it is for the guys who workout all offseason vs the guys who decide to sit on the couch or party around the globe. Its all personal choice.

Dude, are you seriously going to try to compare the 2??? Really?? Workout is a legit hting, steroids isnt even close. Workouts are expected, arent bad for you (yes, I know can injure, blah blah, you know what I mean).

steig
08-25-2009, 06:09 PM
How is that fair to those who dont want to risk their own health, or even their own personal morals, and dont want to do steroids?

You bring up a good point, and a point that we could go back and fourth on for a long time. You could argue several points where the same situation applies...what about the catcher who blocks the plate and gets crushed, what about the pitcher that decides certain pitches hurt his arm to much, what about the batter than doesn't want to stand in for fear of the high fastball. These things could lead to serious injuries also...what happened to Ray Fosse's career after Rose nailed him at the plate in an exhibition.

But in the end, if players know that this is the situation then would it be unfair or just a personal choice not to take advantage of PEDs.

steig
08-25-2009, 06:15 PM
You are a sad person to me. Steriods are ILLEGAL!!!!!!!! You guys don't give a s@it! That's beyond me!I am done!

So by not having the same thoughts and ideas as you I'm a sad person.

Fine steroids are a narcotic...should they be? What about people smoking medical marijuana? Life contains shades of grey, not everything is black and white.

nemesis
08-25-2009, 06:24 PM
Dude, are you seriously going to try to compare the 2??? Really?? Workout is a legit hting, steroids isnt even close. Workouts are expected, arent bad for you (yes, I know can injure, blah blah, you know what I mean).

True. But tell me during the Roid Era that players didn't know who did and who didn't. Im sure the knowlage was more than common in most clubhouses.

It didn't influance some of them to use. Others it might have. Once again. Its all personal choice. Responsibilty falls on the individual. It's like I said in my previous post, you'll die quicker from fast food than steroids.

bounty37h
08-26-2009, 12:15 PM
You bring up a good point, and a point that we could go back and fourth on for a long time. You could argue several points where the same situation applies...what about the catcher who blocks the plate and gets crushed, what about the pitcher that decides certain pitches hurt his arm to much, what about the batter than doesn't want to stand in for fear of the high fastball. These things could lead to serious injuries also...what happened to Ray Fosse's career after Rose nailed him at the plate in an exhibition.

But in the end, if players know that this is the situation then would it be unfair or just a personal choice not to take advantage of PEDs.

Steig, I see your point as well, but those scenarios are direct parts of the game, steroids arent. But, your right, there are pooints that can be argued back and forth on it, I just dont like the idea at all. I dont want to coach my kids that they need to take steroids if they even want a chance to play the game later on in life-thats not a choice I am willing to ever make. Legalizing them in the game would almost certainly assure you need them to compete with the rest.

bounty37h
08-26-2009, 12:18 PM
True. But tell me during the Roid Era that players didn't know who did and who didn't. Im sure the knowlage was more than common in most clubhouses.

It didn't influance some of them to use. Others it might have. Once again. Its all personal choice. Responsibilty falls on the individual. It's like I said in my previous post, you'll die quicker from fast food than steroids.

True as well, I know there are more then the few names listed, and more then most want to accept. But if they are legalized and encouraged then that personal decision is being made for you, so its not a personal decision anymore. At that point it would be expected of you if you want to compete and play.

nemesis
08-26-2009, 04:23 PM
True as well, I know there are more then the few names listed, and more then most want to accept. But if they are legalized and encouraged then that personal decision is being made for you, so its not a personal decision anymore. At that point it would be expected of you if you want to compete and play.

I will agree with you there. It probaly would open a door that wouldn't be able to be closed. So it's probaly best left closed.


What has always bothered me is the manufactured anger and appaling reaction that most fans had when they "found out" that players were "cheating" with PED's. Truth is only a few people were really actually upset by this "discovery." Cheating has been apart of sports since Aztecs were using there enemies heads for Soccer balls. Baseball has had more cheaters in it that any other sport in history.

I refer to the manufacutured anger as the Strip Club Affect.

A strip club opens up in the town you live in. You really don't care one way or another, it's just there and so be it. But you have a neigbor or a wife who starts going on and on about how it will bring crime and prostitution to your street even though you know it won't, but, because it's someone close to you and quite possibly the provider of your nookie, you have to take thier side. Usually hiding behind and using the mantra "it's for the kids" they create public fear and resentment. Now when asked your opinon of what you think about it, you HAVE to pretend your offended by this whether you really are or not. In the end it does nothing but draw attention to the problem and usually makes it worse.

Chances are what happens in there won't ever affect the people who are against it. What someone else does in there and how it affects their lives isn't really your or anyone elses buisness. But because other people close to you or influance you have a negative opinion your doomed to the same whether you feel that way or not.

Steriods is the Strip Club... The customers are the Ballplayers... The Media is the fat angry wife.

No one really gives a flying crap. People are more "fake" worked up over this than teen suicide, poverty and world affairs combined.

I really don't go to the ballpark and worry about who is and who isn't. I sit back enjoy the game and hope all my favorite players do well.

steig
08-26-2009, 11:34 PM
Steig, I see your point as well, but those scenarios are direct parts of the game, steroids arent. But, your right, there are pooints that can be argued back and forth on it, I just dont like the idea at all. I dont want to coach my kids that they need to take steroids if they even want a chance to play the game later on in life-thats not a choice I am willing to ever make. Legalizing them in the game would almost certainly assure you need them to compete with the rest.

I completely see your point. And I would never want you to teach your kids that they need to take steroids. However, at the same point in time I wouldn't teach a child that adults drinking alcohol responsibly is wrong. But teach them how to drink responsibly.

And in reality the best players don't need steroids. Barry Bonds used them but he was already the best player in the game in my opinion. I think if players used them there would be a lot more above average players in the league. Baseball players have been using stimulants for decades to speed up reaction time and help them play better. Is it really any different to use safe levels of steroids? I suppose it would be better players used them and we just didn't know about it or think about it...maybe ignorance really is bliss.