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WVRed
08-24-2009, 10:31 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp09/news/story?id=4417295


GEORGETOWN, Ky. -- The revolution marches on in a lush-green field three miles from the Georgetown Scott County Airport. If the billboards and the urinal-cake campaign didn't do it, didn't stir the Cincinnati Bengals out of an 18-year slumber, surely Andrew Simon's banner will.

Simon was 8 years old the last time Cincinnati won a playoff game. Now he's a 27-year-old instigator, plunking down $1,000 for a guy named Bud to fly his single-engine prop plane over Bengals camp for an hour with a tersely worded message for team president Mike Brown. Simon's cell phone rings on an unseasonably cool Friday night during training camp. There is a problem: Bud is being denied access to the airport runway. But the fan uprising must carry on, so the plane lands near a church, and a banner that says "101-187-1 ... HIRE A GM!" is attached.

The tiny red-and-white plane manages to take off, banner in tow, and buzzes over the Bengals' scrimmage, over Brown, who's seated on a patio. By all accounts, the leader of Bengaldom is unfazed. He fixes his eyes on the football field. Another hopeful summer trudges on.

"What plane?" Bengals coach Marvin Lewis says jokingly after the flyby. "I think [Brown] feels like it's a waste of natural resources. I mean, that's all he says about it. He says, 'Well, if they've got that kind of money, they ought to buy some tickets.'"

It's hard, explaining futility, when it takes hold of a franchise for the better part of 18 years and refuses to let go. When it comes in a league built for parity and collides with a family legacy.

Members of the local media say Mike Brown talks to them only once a year, and that the son of football legend Paul Brown is somewhat of a recluse. Mike Brown is 72 years old, is one of only a handful of NFL owners to also serve as general manager, and, in the 18 years since his father's passing, has watched the team suffer through 17 non-winning seasons.

His critics say he runs the franchise like a mom-and-pop organization while corporate America crushes him. They say he doesn't have the football mind to make personnel decisions, and cares more about money than winning. They don't really know him, and Brown seems to like it that way.

He is standing at the edge of the field, near some staffers wearing T-shirts that say, "Fight Back." Like most summers, Brown is quietly hopeful. He believes this team is ready to move past its labels as dysfunctional, abysmal and occasionally criminal. Then again, he believes that every year.

"Would I have done a few things differently? Sure I would," Brown says. "But that isn't what motivates me or concerns me as much as what we can do about the next step.

"Do I think we will be perpetually down? I do not. I've seen every team in this league when it was down. And the lesson from that is you can come back and fly high."

The family legacy

You try stepping into these footsteps: Paul Brown won a national championship in his second year at Ohio State. He founded two professional teams, led the Cleveland Browns to seven titles and invented the single-bar face mask. About the only thing he didn't accomplish was becoming a lawyer -- he left law school at the age of 23 to become football coach at his hometown Massillon Washington High School football team in Ohio.

But Mike did get a law degree, after playing quarterback at Dartmouth, after following his dad around a football field at the age of 5. It was natural that Mike would immerse himself in his father's greatest passion. Bengals fans don't know this, says Jack Brennan, a former newspaper reporter in Cincinnati who now serves as the Bengals' PR director, but the younger Brown was a central -- albeit quiet -- figure in helping the city land the pro franchise in 1967.

People close to Mike say he's a throwback who would probably be more comfortable in that era, at least 40 years ago. He has been known to go canoeing in a dress shirt, a pair of khakis and fancy work shoes. "That's just Mike," a friend says, without elaborating.

The Bengals are Brown's only business interest, a family business, and kin make up more than half of the names listed in the administration section of the Bengals' Web site. His daughter, Katie Blackburn, is the team's executive vice president. Just below Mike's name on the organizational list is his brother Pete, who is senior vice president of player personnel.

When Paul ran the team, former Bengals coach Forrest Gregg says, Mike was making decisions right alongside him. They'd watch film on Mondays with the coaching staff, a rarity for men in ownership positions. Because Mike also serves as GM, it is assumed that he not only puts his final stamp on personnel decisions, but that he has an active role in evaluating players.

"It's a lot of work," says Gregg, who coached the Bengals to a Super Bowl in 1981. "I just think that he wants to be involved in the decision-making of the team. Just like [Cowboys owner] Jerry Jones. ... That's their philosophy about running the team.

"Mike knows football. He has spent his whole life in it."

In a different era, Paul Brown had his hand in just about everything. He was the Bengals' GM, principal owner and head coach for the first eight seasons. He made it to the playoffs by 1970. He had a knack for talent, plucking Boobie Clark out of Bethune-Cookman and knowing he was a perfect fit for the offense. It was before the days of massive scouting staffs, draftniks and all-night video reviews.

Would Paul Brown have been able to successfully run his team today without a GM? Would he have picked someone from the outside to help, like the family owned Steelers have done with Kevin Colbert? Only one thing is certain -- that after Brown died in 1991, the losses started to pile up. The Bengals went 52-108 in the 1990s, and were stung by draft busts.

There was the David Klingler pick in 1992, a move that was supposed to secure the team's quarterback of the future, and the Akili Smith debacle in 1999. The Bengals were offered nine draft picks for their high selection that year, but were locked into Smith, a massively talented but unproven quarterback from Oregon. Smith started just 17 games and was released in 2002.

It has been reported in various media outlets that the Bengals have only one or two scouts on staff and rely heavily on their coaches to evaluate personnel. Brown disputes that and says he has six scouts on staff.

"There's a million things you can say about [the struggles]," says Dave Lapham, a former Bengals offensive lineman under Paul Brown who is now the team's color analyst. "I don't think it's any one thing. I think everybody's clothes are dirty when something like that happens, all the way from Mike Brown to everybody in the organization all the way down to the bottom.

"You know, part of what happened, in my opinion, was that Paul Brown died. Paul Brown was a football genius. And I think Mike went through an adjustment without being able to run some things by Paul and get Paul's opinion on things."

Loyal to a fault?

He is unfailingly loyal. That, Lapham says, might be Mike Brown's biggest undoing. In a calculated world in which the New England Patriots know exactly when to cut bait, even when it means saying goodbye to loyal veterans who have toiled away on Super Bowl teams (i.e., Corey Dillon, Willie McGinest), the Bengals have been known to hold on (Chris Henry).

Brown kept his first coach, David Shula, for 4½ years as Shula compiled a 19-53 record. The Bengals have had just four different coaches during their 101-187-1 stretch during the past 18 seasons.

He's stuck with players through suspensions and despite rap sheets. The 2006 season had more players arrested (nine) than victories (eight). The most notable case was Henry, who, after arrests for driving under the influence, marijuana possession and assault during his first three seasons, was waived in April 2008. Brown said Henry had forfeited his right to be a Bengal and that his conduct couldn't be tolerated. Four months later, after a spate of injuries, Cincinnati re-signed him to a two-year contract.

"These guys aren't John Dillinger," Brown says. "Even the ones who are in the worst of troubles by our standards. But there's no question that they misstepped, and they paid a pretty severe price in a couple of places. We paid a price because we were painted with that brush. Our reputation was undercut.

"We lived through it. I think it's behind us now. I don't see them as bad people. I think they made mistakes. Some of them went elsewhere and played and nothing was said about it the minute they left here. But around here, it piled up. We had too much of it, and we suffered because of it."

From a fan's viewpoint

Simon knows all about suffering. He's standing outside a bachelor party in downtown Cincinnati on a recent Friday night, and he can see Paul Brown Stadium in the distance. He says he can't bear another season. One of his first memories was John Taylor's catch in Super Bowl XXIII, the one that capped a 92-yard 49ers' march and sealed the Bengals' loss, the one that signaled the end.

"I went every Sunday," Simon says. "I'm a very optimistic sports fan. I trusted the team. Then I started looking at what other successful teams do, what the Patriots do, the Colts do and the Steelers do. I started seeing how different it was from the way the Bengals approached things. I got more and more angry and frustrated."

Roughly 18 months ago, Simon started the Who Dey Revolution, a blog that he says is dedicated to demanding comprehensive reform to the decisions and approach of Bengals management. Last year, his group placed hundreds of urinal cakes in the restrooms at Paul Brown Stadium as part of a "Put Your Yellow on Brown" campaign. The small orange cakes had Brown's record printed on them along with the words, "Get Pissed."

Who Dey, by the way, is the chant that fans used to shout during the franchise's glory days of the 1980s. It goes, Who dey! Who dey! Who dey think gonna beat dem Bengals? NOBODY!

Simon hates it, the fact the answer to that question nowadays is EVERYBODY.

Simon is a business student, and he knows all about strategic advertising. That's why he took $19 donations -- a dollar for every year Brown has been team president -- and booked several airplane flybys during camp with different messages pointed directly at Brown. He wanted the banners to be shown on HBO's "Hard Knocks," which picked Cincinnati as this year's camp destination.

Maybe then, he thought, his message would get out to the people. In the first two weeks of the series, the Who Deys were ignored.

Hope returns each season

There's a story behind the numbers, the Bengals insist. Yes, they've had just one winning season in 18, and haven't sniffed a playoff win since the 1990 season. But four of those 18 years ended 8-8, two more were 7-9, and 2005 could've erased all of it.

[+] EnlargeMarvin Lewis
Frank Victores/US PresswireCoach Marvin Lewis and his players are optimistic for this season.

Cincinnati was one of the hottest teams in the NFL in '05, went 11-5 under quarterback Carson Palmer and had home-field advantage for a playoff game against Pittsburgh. Just after Palmer uncorked his first pass of the day, a 66-yarder, he crumpled to the ground after defensive end Kimo von Oelhoffen rolled into his knee. The Steelers went on to win the Super Bowl; the Bengals slithered back into mediocrity.

The team goes where Palmer goes, Brown says, and that's why Palmer's elbow injury last year was so devastating. The Bengals finished 4-11-1. Lewis likes to coin a preseason theme for each season. The 2008 theme was "Now."

But the sun is still warm, and there is hope for a new season. Palmer is back and mentoring everyone from the rookies to the Twitter-happy Chad Ochocinco. When the cameras are rolling, the team has made a point to show its new and scrubbed-up side.

"I've been here for seven years," Palmer says. "This is the best this team's been mentally going into camp. They're excited, hungry, and ready to work, knowing that we have a lot of work ahead of us.

"It's a lot better group of guys. A lot of family guys, a lot of guys that are professionals and understand how lucky we are to have these jobs and how lucky we are to be able to come and do what we do for work every day."

Will it finally be enough to turn around Bengaldom? Brown believes it is every year. The horn sounds near the end of practice, and Brown is ready to cut off the interview. Actually, he's ready to cut it off after the first minute.

One question makes him light up for a second. He's asked about the biggest lesson his father taught him.

"I think there are over 1,000 answers to it," he says. "And yet if I were to tell you one thing I remember … It was that you just got up every day and you went about what you did and you did the best you could do, and it didn't matter what was going sideways or what was going up.

"You could be riding high or you could be low. But you'd better go out there and persevere."

Elizabeth Merrill is a senior writer for ESPN.com. She can be reached at merrill2323@hotmail.com

MWM
08-24-2009, 11:03 PM
The headline once you click on the link says "Mired in Mediocrity". That couldn't be further from the truth. Mediocrity is a step up from embarassment, which is where the Bengals have settled in during the Mie Brown years.

And BTW, that was a fluff piece if I've ever seen one. Didn't even come close to capturing the ineptitude of the Mike Brown administration. It almost made him sound virtuous, which he is not.

GIDP
08-24-2009, 11:27 PM
TLDR

LoganBuck
08-24-2009, 11:38 PM
BTW after following some of the media reports on the Andre Smith holdout, it is clearly apparent that the Bengals are the ones at fault. What idiots. Sign him now or sign him later, he will get his money, and you will have flushed a season down the toilet.

Caveat Emperor
08-25-2009, 12:41 AM
BTW after following some of the media reports on the Andre Smith holdout, it is clearly apparent that the Bengals are the ones at fault. What idiots. Sign him now or sign him later, he will get his money, and you will have flushed a season down the toilet.

When you look at the 1st round signings, the deal almost writes itself:



Pk Player Pos. Team Status Contract
1. Matt Stafford QB Detroit Signed 6 years, $72 million ($41.7M guaranteed)
2. Jason Smith OT St. Louis Signed 5 years, $61.775 million ($33M guaranteed)
3. Tyson Jackson DE Kansas City Signed 5 years, $57 million ($31M guaranteed)
4. Aaron Curry LB Seattle Signed 6 years, $60 million ($34M guaranteed)
5. Mark Sanchez QB N.Y. Jets Signed 5 years, $60 million ($28M guaranteed)
6. Andre Smith OT Cincinnati Unsigned
7. D. Heyward-Bey WR Oakland Signed 5 years, $38.25 million ($23.5M guaranteed)
8. Eugene Monroe OT Jacksonville Signed 5 years, $35.4 million ($19.2M guaranteed)
9. B.J. Raji DT Green Bay Signed 5 years, $28.5 million ($18M guaranteed)
10. M. Crabtree WR San Francisco Unsigned

Andre Smith should probably get somewhere around $25m-26m guaranteed on an overall $42m-46m deal.

Slot lines up pretty nicely. If you want to avoid paying slot, set the market by being first.

reds1869
08-25-2009, 08:57 AM
Slot lines up pretty nicely. If you want to avoid paying slot, set the market by being first.

Spot on. The Bengals just operate on a different wavelength than, you know, teams that win.

flyer85
08-25-2009, 09:41 AM
The Bengals are Mikey's personal wading pool that his daddy left him so he could go out and play in it.

In addition, there's a bonus, it's a money making machine for the entire family that is not in any where tethered to success in terms of wins and losses.

Now what happened to that rubber ducky?

GIDP
08-25-2009, 09:43 AM
We dont even know what Keels is demanding from the bengals.

hebroncougar
08-25-2009, 12:10 PM
We dont even know what Keels is demanding from the bengals.


He's said repeatedly, slot money.

KoryMac5
08-25-2009, 12:27 PM
I would like to know what the Bengals are offering Smith, from all accounts the gap is pretty wide maybe 5 million or so. Sounds like the Bengals are in at an offer around 38 million and Keels is countering at 42. We know this much about the Bengals they don't blink often in negotiations.

I also put a lot of blame on the Bengals for not signing Smith, if $$$ is an issue trade down and sign cheap talent, especially if the Raiders are picking behind you.

KoryMac5
08-25-2009, 12:36 PM
Last years 6th pick Gholston, was in at 5yrs 50 million (21 million guaranteed). The more I look at it the more I see the Bengals being cheap. I can hear Mike Brown saying " I'm not paying a lineman that much money". Than trade down Mike or hire a GM who knows something about the draft.

WMR
08-25-2009, 12:46 PM
:lol:

Carson doesn't stand a chance.

Mike Brown and Bob Castellini, what a pair.

GIDP
08-25-2009, 12:50 PM
He's said repeatedly, slot money.

Great and what does he view as slot money?

WMR
08-25-2009, 12:51 PM
Or maybe it's Mike Castellini and Bob Brown?

LoganBuck
08-25-2009, 01:04 PM
Great and what does he view as slot money?

42-46 Million, as posted just above in this thread. The Bengals are trying to beat the slotting system. Go check out Joe Reedy's blog. I was siding with the Bengals before this weekend. Keels and the Bengals both let it be known that the Bengals are against paying slot. What idiots.

GIDP
08-25-2009, 01:13 PM
Im talking more guaranteed money here instead of just some fake figure that will never be earned most likely.

and how it is now the Bengals said the ship has sailed on the slotting system. I agree with them. Smith is useless for at least half the season most likely now. Why should the Bengals pay him for a full season when he held out and is now just going to be on the bench. Both sides are to blame but I put nothing past Smith considering how crappy he and his agent have handled everything.

Keels has been trying to use media outlets to pressure the bengals. I tend to think he has a reason for this other than just being a nice guy. Its obviously a ploy. I trust him about as much as I trust Mike Brown.

WMR
08-25-2009, 01:18 PM
All of that may be true but the fault still lies with the Bungles and Mikey Boy.

You've got 100 million invested in a QB and you finally do the right things on draft day and you DON'T GET YOUR FRANCHISE TACKLE SIGNED?????

Just utter incompetency, plain and simple.

Highlifeman21
08-25-2009, 01:21 PM
All of that may be true but the fault still lies with the Bungles and Mikey Boy.

You've got 100 million invested in a QB and you finally do the right things on draft day and you DON'T GET YOUR FRANCHISE TACKLE SIGNED?????

Just utter incompetency, plain and simple.

Do you think Smith is a franchise tackle, though?

GIDP
08-25-2009, 01:27 PM
All of that may be true but the fault still lies with the Bungles and Mikey Boy.

You've got 100 million invested in a QB and you finally do the right things on draft day and you DON'T GET YOUR FRANCHISE TACKLE SIGNED?????

Just utter incompetency, plain and simple.

I dont know how the Bengals are sole to blame here.

LoganBuck
08-25-2009, 01:30 PM
Do you think Smith is a franchise tackle, though?

Offensive Tackles picked in the Top 10 better be. Otherwise they are millstones around your neck.

WMR
08-25-2009, 01:32 PM
Do you think Smith is a franchise tackle, though?

I don't know... like LB said, you gotta plan for him being just that at this point since you drafted him with a top 10 pick.

WMR
08-25-2009, 01:32 PM
I dont know how the Bengals are sole to blame here.

How long have you been following the Bungles?

There's a reason that crap like this is always happening to them.

LoganBuck
08-25-2009, 01:44 PM
How long have you been following the Bungles?

There's a reason that crap like this is always happening to them.

+2

:deadhorse

GIDP
08-25-2009, 02:00 PM
How long have you been following the Bungles?

There's a reason that crap like this is always happening to them.

No doubt but im still not going to put all the blame on the Bengals. Plenty of teams have hold outs. Just going off what Smith has shown us in the past I have no doubt that hes likely just as shady.

LoganBuck
08-25-2009, 02:11 PM
No doubt but im still not going to put all the blame on the Bengals. Plenty of teams have hold outs. Just going off what Smith has shown us in the past I have no doubt that hes likely just as shady.

From Joe Reedy's Blog


Alvin Keels arrived and departed from Cincinnati on Sunday without a deal for first-round pick Andre Smith. Keels met for four hours with Katie Blackburn and Mike Brown where no progress was made in getting the offensive tackle signed.

Sunday marked the 24th day that Smith has gone unsigned and he is one of two first-round picks who remain unsigned, along with San Francisco’s Michael Crabree, who was the 10th pick.

The Bengals last offer to Smith was five years at the base at $28 million and a maximum of $33 million. That’s lower than the contract for last year’s sixth pick, the Jets’ Vernon Gholston (base of $32.5 million) and this year’s seventh pick Oakland’s Darrius Heyward-Bey (base of $38.25 million).
With Smith unsigned, many are now looking at the holdout lasting to September or longer. Justin Smith, the Bengals’ first-round pick in 2001, was out for 51 days while Ricky Hunley was unsigned by the team in 1984 before his rights were traded to Denver in midseason.

From Alvin Keels' Twitter

Leaving Cinci. Not any closer on a deal for Andre Smith. Mike Brown says "the ship has sailed on the slotting system".

GIDP
08-25-2009, 02:20 PM
I really appreciate Alvin Keels letting us know his side of the story. Hes such a nice guy for being so open.

LoganBuck
08-25-2009, 02:22 PM
I really appreciate Alvin Keels letting us know his side of the story. Hes such a nice guy for being so open.

It is a new day. Doesn't make it right or wrong.

GIDP
08-25-2009, 02:24 PM
It is a new day. Doesn't make it right or wrong.

Twitter from an agent is just a easy way for propaganda to reach the masses. Hes not going to tell us anything about what hes actually trying to ask for. My whole stance is we have no idea what the truth is and I can assume that what ever Keels says isnt remotely close to being the whole truth.

bucksfan2
08-25-2009, 02:27 PM
Im talking more guaranteed money here instead of just some fake figure that will never be earned most likely.

and how it is now the Bengals said the ship has sailed on the slotting system. I agree with them. Smith is useless for at least half the season most likely now. Why should the Bengals pay him for a full season when he held out and is now just going to be on the bench. Both sides are to blame but I put nothing past Smith considering how crappy he and his agent have handled everything.

Keels has been trying to use media outlets to pressure the bengals. I tend to think he has a reason for this other than just being a nice guy. Its obviously a ploy. I trust him about as much as I trust Mike Brown.

I agree 100%. He is using any method possible to sway fan support behind Smith and against the Bengals. It really shouldn't be that hard, but Keels is overlooking who his client is. I would venture to guess that anybody who follows football knows the eventful pre draft soap opera that Smith went through. In Smith's case it was painfully depicted almost of a daily basis. It is very difficult to garner good will for a client who showed several red flags when the pressure was on him pre-draft.

I think the leverage is starting to swing back to the Bengals. Smith knows that in order to play in the first quarter of the season he needs to get with the team ASAP. The longer he sits out the more wasted season he begins to have. He isn't like a franchise QB, Smith could have come in and started from day 1. Instead it looks like he won't be starting until around game 5. He is not only delaying getting paid, but he is also delaying his second contract.

At some point Smith needs to step in and say to his agent "Get it done". No more 4 hour meetings without anything new coming out of them. No more holdout. No more wasting time and practice. In the end Smith becomes the real loser the longer the hold out extends.

Screwball
08-25-2009, 02:28 PM
Didn't Keels say on Hard Knocks they wanted a little over what DHB got from the Raiders, and Katie said they're "not prepared to meet that"?

While it sucks Al Davis is clearly insane, this is how it is. Either pay the man his slot money, or punish the team by not doing so. They're not going to get away with their lowball offer.

flyer85
08-25-2009, 02:33 PM
In the end Smith becomes the real loser the longer the hold out extends.that remains to be seen. However, he is certainly taking on risk at this point.

Hoosier Red
08-25-2009, 02:34 PM
If what Reedy's reporting is correct, the Bengals aren't even matching what the #6 pick in the draft last year got. The heck with slotting, what basis are the Bengals using for their numbers?

DTCromer
08-25-2009, 02:37 PM
Signing Andre Smith for $1 would've been a waste of money. Aside from the fact that he's a fat slob, what else would he offer the team? His strong suit isn't even as a pass blocker and that was the Bengals main concern. He's a head case and everyone knew it.

The blame falls squarely on the Bengals.

GIDP
08-25-2009, 02:37 PM
Didn't Keels say on Hard Knocks they wanted a little over what DHB got from the Raiders, and Katie said they're "not prepared to meet that"?

While it sucks Al Davis is clearly insane, this is how it is. Either pay the man his slot money, or punish the team by not doing so. They're not going to get away with their lowball offer.

They obviously want more than what DHB got and thats fair its just a matter of how much more. Is it 25 million guaranteed what? 2 picks behind Smith went another OT and he only got 19.2 mill. Why should DHB deal effect how much Smith is getting. DHB got 4 million more than the pick behind him. No other draft pick recieved more than 4 million other than Curry and Stafford and thats because they signed a 6 year deal instead of 5.

It all depends on where each side views the slot and with Smith holding out I would think the Bengals have a legit argument for holding firmer and firmer. The more he holds out the less value he is to the bengals this year so why should they be giving in when they are actually losing money on investment.

GIDP
08-25-2009, 02:38 PM
If what Reedy's reporting is correct, the Bengals aren't even matching what the #6 pick in the draft last year got. The heck with slotting, what basis are the Bengals using for their numbers?

I have a feeling Reedy is getting his info from Keels. Im quite sure he isnt getting it from the Bengals.

LoganBuck
08-25-2009, 02:50 PM
I have a feeling Reedy is getting his info from Keels. Im quite sure he isnt getting it from the Bengals.

I wouldn't be surprised if Keels' meeting with the Bengals doesn't end up on Hard Knocks. Reedy's sources are more likely to be from within the Bengals. We aren't talking about national security here.

Hoosier Red
08-25-2009, 03:01 PM
Signing Andre Smith for $1 would've been a waste of money. Aside from the fact that he's a fat slob, what else would he offer the team? His strong suit isn't even as a pass blocker and that was the Bengals main concern. He's a head case and everyone knew it.

The blame falls squarely on the Bengals.

He's a fat slob who SEC ends and linebackers took 3 days to get around.

GIDP
08-25-2009, 03:04 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Keels' meeting with the Bengals doesn't end up on Hard Knocks. Reedy's sources are more likely to be from within the Bengals. We aren't talking about national security here.

Reedy sources are probably pretty limited inside the Bengals. I doubt many people other than the Browns and Keels are in the negotiations.

Highlifeman21
08-25-2009, 03:12 PM
Signing Andre Smith for $1 would've been a waste of money. Aside from the fact that he's a fat slob, what else would he offer the team? His strong suit isn't even as a pass blocker and that was the Bengals main concern. He's a head case and everyone knew it.

The blame falls squarely on the Bengals.

I was surprised when the Bengals drafted Smith, to say the least.

While we certainly needed an OT, Smith wasn't the guy, IMO.

With the 6th pick, there were plenty of better athletes on the board that played other positions than OT.

Such as:

Eugene Monroe (although he shouldn't have been a top 10, IMO)
BJ Raji
Michael Crabtree
Aaron Maybin
Brian Orakpo (the guy I really wanted the Bengals to take)
Malcolm Jenkins
Jeremy Maclin
Percy Harvin


If we really had our heart set on an OT, then we could have traded down to take Eugene Monroe, or Michael Oher. We certainly didn't need to waste the 6th pick on Andre Smith.

Screwball
08-25-2009, 03:18 PM
Andre Smith was easily one of the most talented tackles in the entire draft. In fact, many were saying he was as talented as the #2 overall pick, Jason Smith, but fell due to the dreaded "character concerns" (mainly his debacle at the combine).

GIDP
08-25-2009, 03:22 PM
Andre Smith was easily one of the most talented tackles in the entire draft. In fact, many were saying he was as talented as the #2 overall pick, Jason Smith, but fell due to the dreaded "character concerns" (mainly his debacle at the combine).

.

bucksfan2
08-25-2009, 03:44 PM
Keels is making a contradictary argument. He wants "slot" money but he is using two players that blew "slow" away. Sanchez got a deal that is given to a franchise QB. Those are known to be higher than "slot" but is expected when you think a QB will be your franchise QB. DHB got an insane deal from an insane man that blew "slot" out of the water again.

UKFlounder
08-25-2009, 03:58 PM
Those 2 deals simply created a new "slot" and the Bengals were not prepared for other teams to be willing to sign players so soon. They could have been more agreesive in trying to sign Smith, but they waited for the market to set the price, and not that it has, they're still unable to make a deal.

Just because the slotting number was increased by those other teams does not mean the system changed

If the 6th pick getting more money that the 7th pick is such a difficult concept for this organization, that might explain their track record.


Keels is making a contradictary argument. He wants "slot" money but he is using two players that blew "slow" away. Sanchez got a deal that is given to a franchise QB. Those are known to be higher than "slot" but is expected when you think a QB will be your franchise QB. DHB got an insane deal from an insane man that blew "slot" out of the water again.

GIDP
08-25-2009, 04:09 PM
DHB and Sanchez were the 1st couple picks to sign so I dont really buy into the notion that this was all avoidable if they would have just been proactive. Dlus the dude didnt even have an agent till something like May 28th. Sanchez signed on the 10 of June. There was no chance the Bengals were going to beat that date.

Both sides should be looking at Monroes contract not Sanchez and DHB.

ochre
08-25-2009, 07:02 PM
Andre Smith was easily one of the most talented tackles in the entire draft. In fact, many were saying he was as talented as the #2 overall pick, Jason Smith, but fell due to the dreaded "character concerns" (mainly his debacle at the combine).
I'd say his decision to go shirtless for his school's pro-day was probably not a good move from a "winning the minds and hearts" of the draft projection crowd.

My guess is, the Bengals saw blue-light special, while Smith's camp figured he was prime-rib. That, and what's a Bengal pre-season without a first round Smith hold out?

Newport Red
08-25-2009, 08:10 PM
I have a feeling Reedy is getting his info from Keels. Im quite sure he isnt getting it from the Bengals.

Mike has access to the media and twitter. Maybe he should use them to explain how the most successful franchise in all sports will go into a death spiral if he pays slot.

GIDP
08-25-2009, 08:12 PM
Mike has access to the media and twitter. Maybe he should use them to explain how the most successful franchise in all sports will go into a death spiral if he pays slot.

No owner in football does something like that.

TC81190
08-25-2009, 08:20 PM
Not to insensitive, but how old is Mike Brown? Is he in good health?

These are important questions.

MJA
08-25-2009, 08:30 PM
The NFL draft pay system is absolutely broken (The fact that Gene Upshaw never tried to change it when both the owners and the majority of players wanted to shows how truly inept he was as head of the players association).

However, the Bengals knew full well that the slotting system was standard procedure for paying draftees and that if they didn't want to play the game, they should have traded the pick or signed Smith before 5 and 7 were signed.

WMR
08-25-2009, 08:34 PM
The NFL draft pay system is absolutely broken (The fact that Gene Upshaw never tried to change it when both the owners and the majority of players wanted to shows how truly inept he was as head of the players association).

However, the Bengals knew full well that the slotting system was standard procedure for paying draftees and that if they didn't want to play the game, they should have traded the pick or signed Smith before 5 and 7 were signed.

Exactly. I'm dumbfounded that anyone would cut the Bungles one iota of slack in this situation. It is clearly a problem of their own making.

Redhook
08-26-2009, 07:37 AM
Not to insensitive, but how old is Mike Brown? Is he in good health?

These are important questions.

I think he's 74. Unfortunately, his daughter will step in for him when he is gone so nothing will change.

guttle11
08-26-2009, 09:34 AM
I think he's 74. Unfortunately, his daughter will step in for him when he is gone so nothing will change.

I'm not convinced she and Troy won't sell the team when they get control. I don't think she has the same pride of "This is our business". The lure of hundreds of millions of dollars would appeal to her. At least we can hope it does.

WMR
08-26-2009, 09:39 AM
Maybe Mark Cuban can buy the Reds and the Bungles in one fell swoop.

Caveat Emperor
08-26-2009, 01:24 PM
I really thought this "Hard Kocks" thing would pressure the Bengals into making a deal to avoid looking cheap on National TV.

Apparently, I underestimated just how cheap the Bengals truly are.

Newport Red
08-26-2009, 01:36 PM
I'm not convinced she and Troy won't sell the team when they get control. I don't think she has the same pride of "This is our business". The lure of hundreds of millions of dollars would appeal to her. At least we can hope it does.

It's an absolute cash cow. Maybe she'll hire a GM and just count the money.