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TheNext44
08-27-2009, 12:22 PM
LaRussa is a free agent after this season. He has expressed that he is upset with the way management handled Chris Duncan. It is likely that he and Duncan are willing to leave St. Louis, no matter what happens to the Cardinals this season.

Considering Cast and Jocketty's ties to the LaRussa and Duncan, I think it is safe to say that they will at the very least talk to LaRussa and Duncan about coming to Cincinnati next season.

It would require eating one year of Baker's contract, which would be the best $3M they ever spent, IMHO. I think Baker would have no problem leaving this team.

So.....

Would you want LaRussa as manager in 2010?

Chip R
08-27-2009, 12:27 PM
Sure. But we heard this last year. It ain't happening.

George Anderson
08-27-2009, 12:29 PM
I'd say it's pretty obvious that if LaRussa came here the pregame manager show with Marty would be no more.

savafan
08-27-2009, 12:30 PM
Lou may be out in Chicago as well. Bobby Valentine is leaving his gig in Japan. Davey Johnson is now coaching kids, and saying he'd like to get back into managing. I think I'd take any of these three before I'd want LaRussa.

WMR
08-27-2009, 12:32 PM
I would take just about anyone with a pulse over The Dusty, so yes.

IowaRed
08-27-2009, 12:34 PM
I picked the 3rd option, but I'd be happy with 1, 2, or 3

TheNext44
08-27-2009, 12:41 PM
Sure. But we heard this last year. It ain't happening.

I agreed with you, until I read this:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/08/odds-ends-duncan-draft-as.html


As Matthew Leach of MLB.com reports, manager Tony La Russa doesn't believe Chris Duncan, who was recently released from the Red Sox, will want to rejoin the Cards. "That's his call," the skipper said Friday. "It's not ours. My guess is he's not real pleased with us."

and this:

http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/bluenoteredbird89/199686


Please, let's move on and go as far as we can this year. When the season is over, then they can complain all they want at home. I have a feeling Dave Duncan will leave. While it will be sad to see him go, some comfort comes in the fact that maybe this drama would be over. I hope Tony stays and I hope Duncan stays. They are very good at their jobs, but their hatred of the media is just ridiculous. I'm afraid it's going to become a distraction to the team.

Reds4Life
08-27-2009, 12:45 PM
Yep, in a heartbeat.

It won't happen though.

bucksfan2
08-27-2009, 02:18 PM
I despise LaRussa. H have always hated him as a manager. It would take a lot of getting used to him in a Reds uniform. But, the Cards are and have been one of the best teams of the past decade. They always play a fundamental style of baseball and "play the game the right way". I would take LaRussa in a heartbeat.

Tom Servo
08-27-2009, 02:18 PM
My gut reaction is 'No' because I think he's a jerk and his DUI's are an embarrasment to the league. But man do I ever want Dave Duncan as our pitching coach.


I'll vote no but if it does happen (and Duncan comes along), I wouldn't be that upset.

bucksfan2
08-27-2009, 02:23 PM
Wasn't it rumored that Cast wanted LaRussa before he hired Baker? I thought LaRussa only wanted a 1 year deal and Cast wanted a manger who was going to stay for a while.

Reds4Life
08-27-2009, 02:35 PM
Wasn't it rumored that Cast wanted LaRussa before he hired Baker? I thought LaRussa only wanted a 1 year deal and Cast wanted a manger who was going to stay for a while.

Jocketty wasn't the GM then either, Krivsky was. Could make a difference this time around.

If you look at it from LaRussa's point of view, why on earth would he want to leave St. Louis to come here and start from scratch? At his age, he probably isn't interested in a rebuilding project.

15fan
08-27-2009, 03:33 PM
I'd rather lose without Tony LaRussa than win with him.

Jpup
08-27-2009, 03:41 PM
I can't stand LaRussa. I would just as well have Dusty.

RANDY IN INDY
08-27-2009, 03:45 PM
Spend the money on better players.

BRM
08-27-2009, 03:46 PM
Spend the money on better players.

Now that's a concept I can get behind.

TheNext44
08-27-2009, 04:14 PM
Spend the money on better players.

That's a good point. He will probably cost more than Baker did.

Hoosier Red
08-27-2009, 04:18 PM
One thing I'm curious about, a friend of mine was the old PR hack for the Memphis AA team, and he disdained Dave Duncan. Said he "ruined as many arms as he helped." It got me to thinking, have any young arms done well under Duncan? He seems to do better with guys with a couple of years on them. Just a thought considering so much of the success will hinge on Cueto, Bailey, and perhaps Wood and Leake.

KoryMac5
08-27-2009, 04:19 PM
That's a good point. He will probably cost more than Baker did.

Larussa would definitely want more than Dusty, say 4-5 million a season. Factor that in with the 3.5 million the Reds owe Dusty for next season and the Reds would have about 8 million tied up in mgmt. Face it folks Cast won't eat that kind of cake.

*BaseClogger*
08-27-2009, 04:21 PM
Fire Dusty Baker and hire Pete Mackanin, please...

Chip R
08-27-2009, 04:25 PM
When the Reds were playing StL last time some of the announcers were talking about how LaRussa and/or Jocketty were miffed that they didn't get enough credit for their World Championship.

WMR
08-27-2009, 05:39 PM
Did a mod edit this poll or something?

I'd like to change my vote to 'deckchair.'

BRM
08-27-2009, 05:47 PM
Did a mod edit this poll or something?

I'd like to change my vote to 'deckchair.'

Yeah, I think 'deckchair' would have gotten much more support if that option had been there from the beginning.

Tom Servo
08-27-2009, 05:55 PM
Larussa would definitely want more than Dusty, say 4-5 million a season. Factor that in with the 3.5 million the Reds owe Dusty for next season and the Reds would have about 8 million tied up in mgmt. Face it folks Cast won't eat that kind of cake.
I think he would, only then turn around and say that the Reds can't afford to make any more offseason moves.


And I like the addition of the 'deckchair' option a lot. I didn't put it in though. I'll admit now though that was the one who made Willy Taveras the unanimous pick for which Red should be selected to the All-Star Game. I was did it because we all knew he deserved it.

TheNext44
08-27-2009, 06:58 PM
Fire Dusty Baker and hire Pete Mackanin, please...

I think if you polled the players at the end of 2007, Mackanin would have been a near unanimous choice. Dave Miley and Jerry Narron are really the only reasons why Mackanin did not get a shot in 2008. It's a shame. He would have been perfect for a real rebuilding project.

hebroncougar
08-27-2009, 08:04 PM
I'd take Larussa in a heartbeat, it would show that the Reds are serious about winning, because he wouldn't come, unless Castellini would agree to up the ante.

Raisor
08-27-2009, 09:18 PM
I'd take Larussa in a heartbeat, it would show that the Reds are serious about winning, because he wouldn't come, unless Castellini would agree to up the ante.

Hiring Dusty was supposed to "show the Reds were serious about winning".

I have no idea why LaRussa would want to come here.

They need a complete overhaul of the baseball operations. Until that happens, who the manager is isn't going to matter much. It's time to try something new. Bring in a front office with some kind of vision. Rebuild everything from the pop corn guy in Billings on up.



The team is wrecked, might as well let Dusty manage it until they unwreck it.

Always Red
08-27-2009, 09:54 PM
I'd say it's pretty obvious that if LaRussa came here the pregame manager show with Marty would be no more.

I can't stand TLR, but if he can run Marty off.....

TheNext44
08-27-2009, 10:18 PM
Hiring Dusty was supposed to "show the Reds were serious about winning".

I have no idea why LaRussa would want to come here.

They need a complete overhaul of the baseball operations. Until that happens, who the manager is isn't going to matter much. It's time to try something new. Bring in a front office with some kind of vision. Rebuild everything from the pop corn guy in Billings on up.



The team is wrecked, might as well let Dusty manage it until they unwreck it.

The idea is that LaRussa would come here because of his ties to Jocketty and Cast. Not saying that's a good enough reason for him to do it, but it's a good enough one for speculation.


Now if he did come here, isn't it logical to assume that with him, Duncan and Jocketty running the team, that it would have the "complete overhaul of the baseball operations" that it needs?

Remember, LaRussa is the anti-Dusty, and Duncan is the Anti-Dick Pole. They and Jockety overhauled the Cardinal's organization 15 years ago to pretty good results. I would think he would only come here if he could do the same with the Reds. (I know, more reasons for why he won't come here.)

But if you want a "complete overhaul of the baseball operations", then hiring LaRussa is good first step.

ochre
08-27-2009, 10:21 PM
Yeah, I think 'deckchair' would have gotten much more support if that option had been there from the beginning.
My bad. I'd have done it earlier if I saw it :).

Reds4Life
08-27-2009, 10:50 PM
The idea is that LaRussa would come here because of his ties to Jocketty and Cast. Not saying that's a good enough reason for him to do it, but it's a good enough one for speculation.


Now if he did come here, isn't it logical to assume that with him, Duncan and Jocketty running the team, that it would have the "complete overhaul of the baseball operations" that it needs?

Remember, LaRussa is the anti-Dusty, and Duncan is the Anti-Dick Pole. They and Jockety overhauled the Cardinal's organization 15 years ago to pretty good results. I would think he would only come here if he could do the same with the Reds. (I know, more reasons for why he won't come here.)

But if you want a "complete overhaul of the baseball operations", then hiring LaRussa is good first step.

Problem is, time isn't on the side of Jocketty, or LaRussa for that matter. You are talking about long term changes, realistically how long is Walt going to be the GM? He ain't a spring chicken anymore. I wouldn't be suprise if he said screw it and retired in the offseason. At this point, he doesn't need the money or the headache. Frankly, neither does LaRussa.

TheNext44
08-27-2009, 10:55 PM
Just for the record Jocketty is only 58, but LaRussa is 64. I think they both have a good decade left in them. Probably Jocketty more than LaRussa.

fargo55
08-27-2009, 11:05 PM
Torre', Bochy, LaRussa, Pinella, Tracy; Dig up Billy Martin. I have a hard time imagining that we could pick someone who would not offer a significant opportunity to improve our Reds' on-field performance.

Raisor
08-28-2009, 12:16 AM
But if you want a "complete overhaul of the baseball operations", then hiring LaRussa is good first step.



I want Walt gone. I want new blood, not retreads. What they've been doing hasn't been working. Try something NEW, or at least new for Cincy.

Bring in the guys with the sliderules and that thick glasses. No more going after people who's primary background is that they lived in Cincy at one time, or have a previous relationship with the owner.

New blood.

TheNext44
08-28-2009, 01:04 AM
I want Walt gone. I want new blood, not retreads. What they've been doing hasn't been working. Try something NEW, or at least new for Cincy.

Bring in the guys with the sliderules and that thick glasses. No more going after people who's primary background is that they lived in Cincy at one time, or have a previous relationship with the owner.

New blood.

Fair enough. Can't have any worse results.

cincrazy
08-28-2009, 08:28 AM
I don't think Tony would have any better luck with this same group of players. And paying Dusty over $3 million to go away and Tony over $4 million to come isn't going to help our ability to get more ballplayers in the offseason.

REDREAD
08-28-2009, 11:09 AM
I can't stand TLR, but if he can run Marty off.....

:lol: Good point.

I would like LaRussa, although the point about paying his salary is certainly valid. Kind of hard to justify a 5 million dollar manager with the collection of talent we have, unless Cast is really wanting to spend big.

RANDY IN INDY
08-28-2009, 03:39 PM
I don't think Tony would have any better luck with this same group of players. And paying Dusty over $3 million to go away and Tony over $4 million to come isn't going to help our ability to get more ballplayers in the offseason.

Goes deeper than the manager, doesn't it?

Mario-Rijo
08-28-2009, 03:58 PM
I don't think Tony would have any better luck with this same group of players. And paying Dusty over $3 million to go away and Tony over $4 million to come isn't going to help our ability to get more ballplayers in the offseason.

I beg to differ C.C.

He'd use Taveras sparingly (at the bottom of the order #9) or not much at all, assuming he is still here.

He'd promptly move BP to SS.

He'd put guys in front of Votto that can get on base.

He'd put out a lineup from top to bottom that can both hit and play defense at the same time.

He'd be sure that if we needed something in particular he'd lobby for it.

He'd bring Dave Duncan with him.

In short he'd recognize the talent we have, help improve it, lobby to get what we needed within the confines of our payroll and put a winning product on the field everyday to the best of his ability. And his ability to do that is better than most.

westofyou
08-28-2009, 04:03 PM
I watched TR all through the 80's and 90's up close, I've seen him eat the Reds lunch for the past 15 years. I can't stand teh guys, good manager, who would drive 1/2 (if not more) guys here batty.

That said I also don't like taking on guys who are looking at the retirment horizon and coming off years of success at places that let him do what he wanted.

I'd like someone younger than TR, younger than Dusty, someone who might create their legacy as a Red, not diminish it.

RedRoser
08-29-2009, 02:40 PM
I voted yes, if Duncan comes along with him, but after rethinking, I believe I'm more inclined to agree with woy. What's Barry Larkin or Eric Davis doing???

Matt700wlw
08-29-2009, 02:43 PM
I'd say it's pretty obvious that if LaRussa came here the pregame manager show with Marty would be no more.

Thom or Jeff could do it :D

That'd be the best part of the pregame show, Marty and Tony getting into it :lol:

George Anderson
08-29-2009, 02:47 PM
I voted yes, if Duncan comes along with him, but after rethinking, I believe I'm more inclined to agree with woy. What's Barry Larkin or Eric Davis doing???

Not that I want or don't want him but if Barry Larkin came back to manage the Reds the excitement would be incredible . Maybe not as big as it was in 84' when Pete came back but it would no doubt be the most excitement Reds fans have experienced since JR came home.

George Anderson
08-29-2009, 02:48 PM
Thom or Jeff could do it :D

That'd be the best part of the pregame show, Marty and Tony getting into it :lol:

They would need a very large room to fit both those men and their egos in it.

Matt700wlw
08-29-2009, 02:49 PM
I think if you polled the players at the end of 2007, Mackanin would have been a near unanimous choice. Dave Miley and Jerry Narron are really the only reasons why Mackanin did not get a shot in 2008. It's a shame. He would have been perfect for a real rebuilding project.

Absolute fact.

The Reds brass didn't have anything against Mackanin, except that he wasn't the "big name."

Their objective was to land that "big name"

Well.....they did.

Matt700wlw
08-29-2009, 02:50 PM
They would need a very large room to fit both those men and their egos in it.

Probably.

:D

Spring~Fields
08-29-2009, 02:58 PM
Who is the guy/gal that can asses, judge, utilize talent and then position that talent so that the optimum levels of production, performance and outcomes can be achieved? I want that guy/gal for manager and coaches.

Most can win with a big inventory of very good established players. Who is the manager that can get more out of less, and win. I want that manager.

MattyHo4Life
08-30-2009, 09:03 AM
Maybe the poll should ask if you want Dave Duncan as pitching coach in 2010 even if LaRussa doesn't come with him. The writing was on the wall earlier this year when Chris was traded. Most Cardinals fans were happy to see Chris out of the picture even though we knew Dave might leave after the season. I don't want to see Dunc go, but there has been a new philosophy in Cardinal Nation the last few years which is also why Jocketty was forced out of St. Louis. Personally, I like the new direction, but it may mean the LaRussa/Duncan era in St. Louis i near an end. Jocketty still operates the old school way, and would probably give Duncan and LaRussa the minor league control that they desire.


Uncertain future for Duncan, Cardinals


ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
08/30/2009

Dave Duncan is not prepared to say where November will take him, whether this, his 14th season as Cardinals pitching coach, will be his last.

He is more forthcoming about where the last several years, particularly the last five months, leave him.

For now, Duncan is in a place that allows him to glean satisfaction from a pitching staff strong-arming the Cardinals to their first postseason appearance since 2006. He might celebrate his 30th season as a major-league pitching coach by overseeing a fifth Cy Young Award winner. But no matter how satisfying this season might become, it will leave an unsavory aftertaste that could lead him to walk away. MORE CARDINALS

"I'm not ready to make that decision right now," he said. "When I do, it will be a personal decision, not a professional one."

Duncan says this looking straight ahead, unblinking.

He is angry publicly so at a St. Louis media he believes stoked last month's trade of his

outfielder son Chris to the Boston Red Sox and, until now, privately at a franchise that has created a minor-league pitching philosophy independent of his and bullpen coach Marty Mason's input.

A number inside and outside the Cardinals organization view Duncan's smoldering dissatisfaction as a precursor to him leaving after this season. That belief only gained steam last week when Duncan asked general manager John Mozeliak for a one-day leave of absence upon the team's return from a 5-2 West Coast trip to address "personal business."

Duncan did not specify his reason for missing Tuesday's series opener against the Houston Astros, nor did Mozeliak ask for one. However, it was the first time manager Tony La Russa could remember his chief lieutenant missing a game for a reason other than suspension since the two joined forces with the 1983 Chicago White Sox.

"A lot of factors will help determine what I ultimately do," Duncan said Thursday, the day after he returned to the club. "That decision isn't going to be made now, but it will be made at the end of the season."

La Russa's contract expires at season's end. It is believed to be a virtual certainty Duncan would leave if La Russa chooses not to re-up. However, it is believed increasingly likely the last several months might cause Duncan to pursue another job regardless of La Russa's decision.

Mozeliak is not deaf to the matter but says he prefers to let the season play out before addressing it.

"These are the kind of discussions we traditionally reserve for when the season has played out," he said. "I don't know if we're best served delving into it now. But at some point I'm sure we'll talk about it."

Duncan intends to coach next season, whether in St. Louis or elsewhere. Any perception that he and La Russa are intrinsically linked is incomplete.

"I've told him before that our personal relationship never stands in the way of the professional," La Russa said. "Nothing has changed, and nothing will change about that."

Likewise, La Russa believes a pull exists due to those returning next season from the current pitching staff. He dismisses any suggestion that his longtime ally has reached an indelible decision.

"I know when it comes down to making a decision, Dave has tremendous personal and professional interest invested in the guys here and the guys here next year," La Russa said. "He values that deeply."

Duncan recently cited consistently "malicious" treatment of his son as a factor in his recent reluctance to deal with local media. Handling of the trade, which he learned about only after the fact, fed the elder Duncan's frustration.

"Chris was not shown respect," Duncan said. "The stuff he dealt with, the stuff he heard and was subjected to ... I don't know of any player in this town who went through what he experienced in the time I've been here."

La Russa shares Duncan's profound sentiment about media and fan treatment of Chris.

"I see guys struggle, and they don't get the same blame," La Russa insisted. "I see guys play defense. He gets pointed out. What Chris Duncan did in '06 to help get us into the postseason by itself should have given him maybe not a lifetime pass but certainly a lot of credibility. For two years he played hurt when he probably shouldn't have played. To me, he's a hero for how he hung in there; but he's treated like he's responsible for anything that went wrong."

Duncan acknowledges his son's trade to the Red Sox likely was for the best but questions whether the club's silence regarding Chris' numerous injuries the last three seasons fed media scrutiny and fan criticism, which in turn fed momentum for the deal.

After blasting 22 home runs in 280 at-bats in 2006, Duncan's breakout start to 2007 was sabotaged by a double hernia that neither player nor team confirmed until the younger Duncan submitted to surgery that September.

The conspiracy of silence repeated itself last season when a herniated cervical disc left Duncan with excruciating pain in his neck and numbness in his right arm and hand. He required surgery to replace the defective disc with a prosthetic, a first-of-a-kind procedure on an American professional athlete.

When Duncan's performance began to erode again this season, the club never acknowledged a physical issue.

However, Duncan was scheduled to leave the club in Houston to be examined by his St. Louis surgeon, Dr. Dan Riew, the day after learning of the trade. (Dave Duncan had pushed for the exam.) Fearing what an examination might reveal, the younger Duncan refused to attend the appointment.

Dave Duncan reacted harshly upon learning of the trade the night of July 21. While reporters were shooed from the Minute Maid Park visiting clubhouse, Duncan lashed out at the team's training staff in front of players for its handling of his son.

Reminded that Chris consistently denied his injuries when queried by reporters, Duncan insisted, "At some point the club should protect those who don't protect themselves. Chris didn't protect himself. And no one else protected him either."

La Russa says his understanding of Chris' hernia and cervical condition was less than total.

"Until the end I didn't know the pain he was in," La Russa said. "I would have never played him if I thought the hernia would become a double hernia or if he was having trouble sleeping at night. (Chris) shares that (responsibility). But by doing that, my respect is magnified for him. He thought, 'If I could walk, I'm going to go out there.'"

Chris Duncan was traded while in a one-for-31 funk that had dragged his overall average to .227. During what is now known as his "vomit speech," La Russa chastised St. Louis media and the team's fan base July 21 for its treatment of Duncan. "I get so tired of the treatment of Chris Duncan. It makes me want to vomit. And you can quote me on that," La Russa said.

At the time, Mozeliak had informed La Russa that a trade was all but done. La Russa told his longtime pitching coach that night after the deal had been consummated. Chris and several teammates learned the news moments later. Because the Red Sox stipulated Duncan first be optioned, an official announcement was embargoed until the next afternoon.

Dave Duncan took a two-pronged swipe following the trade, suggesting either an agenda in play within the organization or woeful minor-league depth necessitating a trade of a major-league player for someone (Lugo) already designated for assignment.

"So somebody wanted to get him out of the organization, and they've accomplished what they wanted to accomplish," Duncan said the day the deal was announced. "Either that or we don't have anybody in the minor leagues they wanted. One or the other."

Even after the deal, Duncan and his family received letters and e-mails celebrating the move. Some included personal attacks on his son's abilities and training habits. Duncan has a father's memory of such attacks.

Professional differences with the team's player development side are a compounding issue. Dave Duncan was a member of Walt Jocketty's inner circle prior to Jocketty's dismissal as general manager in October 2007. Since Mozeliak's hiring, player development has become more autonomous under vice president of scouting and player development Jeff Luhnow. A number of Duncan's confidantes, including former minor-league pitching coordinator Mark Riggins, have resigned or been removed. Duncan now isn't consulted on either potential player acquisitions or organization instruction. Communication between the two sides is scattershot, at best.
"It's changed the last three years," Duncan said. "We have our way of doing things up here, and they do things their way in the minor leagues. We're not involved. That's the way it is."

"They have their reasons," La Russa said. "They think there's a health issue that can be improved and are examining ways to be healthier, better and all that stuff. Some of that is different from what Dave believes."
The matter has become part of the new organizational drapery, according to Duncan, a deviation from how many clubs do business but something to be handled rather than confronted.

"It's probably not going to change," Duncan said. "It's part of the job. You adjust. It's the way things are done now. You deal with it."

For how much longer no one will say.

Tom Servo
08-30-2009, 09:35 AM
Step 1. Sign Duncan as pitching coach.
Step 2. Sign guys like Jason Jennings, Kris Benson, and if possible, Justin Duchscherer.
Step 3. WORLD SERIES.

Spring~Fields
08-30-2009, 12:14 PM
Dave Duncan was a member of Walt Jocketty's inner circle prior to Jocketty's dismissal as general manager in October 2007.

A little insight into what might be in Mr. Jocketty's inner circle here.

There might be a chance for Mr. Jocketty to smarten up that inner circle with Duncan. Maybe he could make Duncan czar of pitching for the Reds, as it would be interesting to see the outcome of Harang, Arroyo, Cueto, Bailey et el with Duncans instruction.

The Cards better watch out, the buzzards will be circling, they might end up with all money and no brains if Duncan leaves.

TheNext44
08-30-2009, 12:42 PM
I know that great pitching coaches have not done really well as managers in the past, but how about offering Duncan pitching coach job in 2010 with the promise that he gets to be manager in 2011? Or just make him the manager in 2010?

Spring~Fields
08-30-2009, 01:53 PM
I know that great pitching coaches have not done really well as managers in the past, but how about offering Duncan pitching coach job in 2010 with the promise that he gets to be manager in 2011? Or just make him the manager in 2010?

Works for me. I love your optimism and vision. :thumbup:

The Cards will probably placate him with money, like they have their volatile lineups for the past decade.

westofyou
08-30-2009, 01:59 PM
Guys who spend their days doing nothing but look at pitchers inevitably make poor managers, they relate to the game through pitching, the relate mostly to pitchers and not hitters and they tend to be less then apt game time managers. Plus would the Reds really prosper by handing the keys to a first time manager at the age of 65?

Spring~Fields
08-30-2009, 02:07 PM
Guys who spend their days doing nothing but look at pitchers inevitably make poor managers, they relate to the game through pitching, the relate mostly to pitchers and not hitters and they tend to be less then apt game time managers. Plus would the Reds really prosper by handing the keys to a first time manager at the age of 65?

Good points, food for thought.

How about just making him the man over pitching? Special assistant to Jocketty?

MattyHo4Life
08-30-2009, 03:28 PM
The Cards better watch out, the buzzards will be circling, they might end up with all money and no brains if Duncan leaves.

People said the same thing when Jocketty left St. Louis. IMO, the Cardinals haven't really missed Jocketty at all. Duncan is the one that I'd be most concerned about losing, but I think they will be fine even if he does leave. I wouldnt prefer he leave, but this season has been little crazy with both Duncan an LaRussa getting upset with the media and the fans that it has left bad feelings for everyone involved. Also, a lot of Cardinals fans have never liked LaRusa... I'm not one of those, but I don't think I'd be too upset if either/both of them left either.

MattyHo4Life
08-30-2009, 03:49 PM
Works for me. I love your optimism and vision. :thumbup:

The Cards will probably placate him with money, like they have their volatile lineups for the past decade.

I wouldn't be too certain of that. Cardinals management seems to be pulling away from the Jocketty/LaRussa/Duncan era. If they were concerned about keeping LaRussa and Duncan happy, then I think they would have kept Chris.

Chip R
08-30-2009, 03:53 PM
So, are the Duncans a package deal?

MattyHo4Life
08-30-2009, 05:10 PM
So, are the Duncans a package deal?

They probably are. There is a good chance that Dave will go where his son is. Chris would actually be a good signing once he is healthy. His big problem here is that he was hurt, and nobody knew how hurt he really was.

Spring~Fields
08-30-2009, 06:06 PM
People said the same thing when Jocketty left St. Louis. IMO, the Cardinals haven't really missed Jocketty at all. Duncan is the one that I'd be most concerned about losing, but I think they will be fine even if he does leave. I wouldnt prefer he leave, but this season has been little crazy with both Duncan an LaRussa getting upset with the media and the fans that it has left bad feelings for everyone involved. Also, a lot of Cardinals fans have never liked LaRusa... I'm not one of those, but I don't think I'd be too upset if either/both of them left either.

I think they and the Cardinals will work it out. The Cardinals have long been a good organization. Maybe those two guys are postering for more money. Larussa and Duncan have it pretty good in St. Louis don't they? Also don't they start piping up when they want additional talent too? Meaning when they "want something" they get vocal?

mth123
08-30-2009, 06:14 PM
Short of a ton of cash that this team doesn't have, why in the world would Tony Larussa come to Cincinnati? I know there is a Walt/Cast factor at play, but Larussa will have plenty of options.

Would you turn down a good job at a successful company to go work with your fireinds flipping burgers? If I were Larussa, I'd go to a good organization while maintaining my ties to Walt/Cast by sending them a card every year at Christmas.

MattyHo4Life
08-30-2009, 06:23 PM
Also don't they start piping up when they want additional talent too? Meaning when they "want something" they get vocal?

Yes they do, and they usually get what they want. LaRussa has been demanding the Cards trade for Holliday ever since last year. Although, trading Chris Duncan wasn't a good sign. I couldn't imagine leaving what they have in St. Louis just because of the trade. Although, trading Duncan may have been a sign from Cards management that they aren't going to bend over backwards to keep them.

I wouldn't be surprised to see LaRussa go to Cincinnati, and Oquendo take over as manager of the Cardinals in 2010.

nate
08-30-2009, 06:25 PM
LaRussa as manager? I dunno. Duncan as pitching coach? Sure.

However, the priority should be on assembling a 25-roster whose talent level is high even without a manager squeezing the marrow out of it rather than hoping manager _______ can turn SteakUms into steak.

TheNext44
08-30-2009, 06:41 PM
LaRussa as manager? I dunno. Duncan as pitching coach? Sure.

However, the priority should be on assembling a 25-roster whose talent level is high even without a manager squeezing the marrow out of it rather than hoping manager _______ can turn SteakUms into steak.

Mmmmmmm.... SteakUms....

Maybe that's why I'm such an optimist when it comes to the Reds. :)

nate
08-30-2009, 06:45 PM
Mmmmmmm.... SteakUms....

Maybe that's why I'm such an optimist when it comes to the Reds. :)

Yeah, but the after effects of eating SteakUms and watching the Reds are the same!

:cool:

westofyou
08-30-2009, 07:48 PM
They probably are. There is a good chance that Dave will go where his son is. Chris would actually be a good signing once he is healthy. His big problem here is that he was hurt, and nobody knew how hurt he really was.

Chris Duncan is to Dave what Earl Mack was to Connie.. a son of famous guy and a mediocre ballplayer

GAC
08-30-2009, 08:11 PM
Let see....we currently have two ex-Cardinal FO personnel running the Reds in Castellini and Jocketty. And so far, it has worked out well. :rolleyes:

Tom Servo
08-30-2009, 08:19 PM
Let see....we currently have two ex-Cardinal FO personnel running the Reds in Castellini and Jocketty. And so far, it has worked out well. :rolleyes:
The winning starts eventually.

westofyou
08-30-2009, 08:36 PM
Let see....we currently have two ex-Cardinal FO personnel running the Reds in Castellini and Jocketty. And so far, it has worked out well. :rolleyes:

It worked with Warren Giles, Bill DeWitt and Bob Howsam, let's see how it plays out.

Brutus
08-30-2009, 08:47 PM
Let see....we currently have two ex-Cardinal FO personnel running the Reds in Castellini and Jocketty. And so far, it has worked out well. :rolleyes:

Jocketty has had all of one offseason as GM of this team, thus far. Granted, Castellini has been around a few years, but I still maintain this organization is further along than what it was. The depth was not good enough at the Major League level to withstand much, if any adversity. We saw the results of that.

It might take a few more clicks, but the impressions will start to add up.

MattyHo4Life
08-30-2009, 09:53 PM
Chris Duncan is to Dave what Earl Mack was to Connie.. a son of famous guy and a mediocre ballplayer

Mediocre? I think you are over estimating Chris Duncan. One thing is for sure, Chris played so well that Cardinals fans jumped for joy when he was traded for a player the Red Sox were begging to get rid of.

Spring~Fields
08-30-2009, 10:21 PM
Let see....we currently have two ex-Cardinal FO personnel running the Reds in Castellini and Jocketty. And so far, it has worked out well. :rolleyes:

I think maybe they have that coming after the beating that they let Krivsky take, while making it sound like they were here to save the day, and really have not done much better in a short amount of time. I don’t think Castellini had a clue on how much work and how much time was involved realistically.

I don’t think any of the people under Castellini were ever given enough time, and especially with the financial and player resources that they have had to work with in the face of aggressive, established competition in St. Louis and Chicago adding nails to the coffin.

I don’t know what Castellini was thinking besides exciting the fan base to buy tickets.

We know that money doesn’t buy productive free agents necessarily, and we know that minor league prospects that make it to the majors to become exciting productive talent, doesn’t just grow on a tree to be cherry picked at will. Then there is the competition who at the same time the Reds are trying to improve, well, they too are working hard to improve their teams.

I think they are continuing to put the pieces together, and that in time it might work out as it does for teams from time to time.

westofyou
08-30-2009, 10:56 PM
Mediocre? I think you are over estimating Chris Duncan. One thing is for sure, Chris played so well that Cardinals fans jumped for joy when he was traded for a player the Red Sox were begging to get rid of.

Probably, I remember a Cards broadcast I watched where Al was saying that Chris Duncan was everything that Adam Dunn was.

I got a chuckle out of that.

MattyHo4Life
08-30-2009, 11:16 PM
Probably, I remember a Cards broadcast I watched where Al was saying that Chris Duncan was everything that Adam Dunn was.

I got a chuckle out of that.

He is like an Adam Dunn that doesn't walk much.

Patrick Bateman
08-31-2009, 01:15 AM
He is like an Adam Dunn that doesn't walk much.

Or hit as much.

Big Klu
08-31-2009, 07:18 AM
He is like an Adam Dunn that doesn't walk much.


Or hit as much.

And with a poorer glove.

Sea Ray
08-31-2009, 11:30 AM
I'd like to have LaRussa bring Hal McRae with him as well. In fact I'd rather have Dave Duncan and Hal McKrae and LaRussa can stay in St Louis for all I care. If he has to come too then so be it

Chip R
08-31-2009, 09:48 PM
They probably are. There is a good chance that Dave will go where his son is. Chris would actually be a good signing once he is healthy. His big problem here is that he was hurt, and nobody knew how hurt he really was.


Matty, why is LaRussa championing Chris Duncan when he feuded with Rolen because he did pretty much the same thing. If his pitching coach then was Scott Rolen's dad, would he have had a different attitude?

MattyHo4Life
08-31-2009, 10:52 PM
Matty, why is LaRussa championing Chris Duncan when he feuded with Rolen because he did pretty much the same thing. If his pitching coach then was Scott Rolen's dad, would he have had a different attitude?

I think his attitude would have been different. This is one thing that I really disagree with LaRussa about. LaRussa bashed Cardinals fans for booing Chris Duncan. He said that they should remember that Duncan was a big part of the Cardinals 2006 World Chamionship. He never mentions how important Scott Rolen was in 2006. I think it's a case of selective memory.

MattyHo4Life
09-01-2009, 07:22 AM
Minor league development seems to be the only problem that Duncan has had while in St. Louis, but it is a big one. Cardinals management has been working to fix this problem the last few years which is why Walt Jocketty was pushed out. It looks like they might be nudging Duncan and possibly LaRussa out the same way. I don't know for sure, but it is starting to look that way. On thing is for sure, the less control Jocketty/LaRussa/Duncan have had on the Cardinals minor league system the better minor league development has been. Dave Duncan is the best pitching coach in the Majors, but he isn't good with developing young pitchers. Danny Haren is one example of a pitcher that struggled under Duncan, but prospered after he left. Would he have ever been this good as a Cardinal? Who knows?

Do the Reds really need a Pitching coach with Duncan's record with developing young pitchers?


Can Duncan stop taking it all personally?

08/30/2009

This should be Dave Duncan’s most gratifying season in St. Louis. Instead, it has turned into one of his most difficult.

He has accomplished many great things during his tenure as Cardinals pitching coach -– turning around one hurler’s career after another -– but his success this season is unparalleled.

Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright are competing for the National League Cy Young Award. How often does that happen in a coach’s career?

Ryan Franklin has become one of baseball’s most reliable closers. Joel Pineiro is finallly realizing his vast potential. Perennial prospect Blake Hawksworth finally emerged as a steady middle reliever.

Future Hall of Famer John Smoltz arrived after a disastrous stint in Boston and quickly fixed his mechanical flaws. Once again, Duncan’s wizardry is drawing national praise.

Once again, the Cards are streaking toward postseason play. Duncan should be relishing this opportunity to work his magic as veterans Kyle Lohse (forearm strain, groin muscle strain) and Todd Wellemeyer (sore elbow) strive to regain their 2008 form.

He should be excited about youngsters Jason Motte and Mitchell Boggs, two promising power pitchers still learning how to harness their lively stuff. He should be intrigued by Jaime Garcia’s ongoing comeback from elbow surgery.

Instead, Duncan appears miserable. This has become Duncan’s summer of discontent.

Amid all the Cards’ winning and celebrating, Duncan is feeling hurt, frustrated, angry, slighted, bitter -– a whole array of destructive emotions.

This is so unfortunate. Fans can only hope he steps back, separates the business side of baseball from the personal side and moves forward. The Cards wouldn’t be the same without him. MORE ON DUNCAN
CARDS INSIDER: Uncertain future for Duncan, team
GORDO: Can Duncan stop taking it all personally?
BERNIE'S BLOG: On Dave Duncan & more
POLL: Your opinion on Duncan?

Yes, his son had a difficult time here. One injury after another derailed Chris Duncan’s promising career with the Cards.

Time and again he played hurt. He did this for the team, just as he switched positions for the team.

But a series of debilitating injuries sapped his power. The harder he worked this season, the worse it got. His struggle punched a hole in the Cards lineup.

Finally, general manager John Mozeliak took the initiative to pull the plug, dealing Chris to the Red Sox for Julio Lugo in a hugely beneficial swap.

Did Chris Duncan get an overly rough ride from Cards fans? Absolutely. But coach’s kids face excessive scrutiny, from the recreation level all the way to the pro level.

Even in Baseball Heaven, perceived nepotism will prompt some folks to jump ugly. It just will. That is just human nature. It's not fair, but it IS predictable.

Should Chris have been more forthcoming about his injuries? Absolutely, since the Cards should have shut Chris down when his hernia problem arose.

Is Chris better off starting in another organization? Absolutely, since the past few years have left much scarring. He will need a fresh start.

Could Mozeliak have handled the Duncan trade better? Perhaps, since this was an emotionally charged situation. Hard feelings were inevitable.

Should the Cards follow Dave Duncan’s philosophy in pitcher development? Not necessarily, since the organization needed to improve on that front. Too many high draft picks washed out in previous years.

The new approach seems to be working fine. The Cards traded young pitching to get Khalil Greene, Mark DeRosa and Matt Holliday. The Cards promoted young pitching to shore up the bullpen and rotation.

More good young pitchers are on the way. Dave Duncan hated to lose minor league pitching coordinator Mark Riggins, but then Tony La Russa hated to lose general manager Walt Jocketty.
Tony stuck around because he believed in his players and their ability to keep winning. Now he is hoping Dave Duncan finds a way to do the same.

blumj
09-01-2009, 11:14 AM
Minor league development seems to be the only problem that Duncan has had while in St. Louis, but it is a big one. Cardinals management has been working to fix this problem the last few years which is why Walt Jocketty was pushed out. It looks like they might be nudging Duncan and possibly LaRussa out the same way. I don't know for sure, but it is starting to look that way. On thing is for sure, the less control Jocketty/LaRussa/Duncan have had on the Cardinals minor league system the better minor league development has been. Dave Duncan is the best pitching coach in the Majors, but he isn't good with developing young pitchers. Danny Haren is one example of a pitcher that struggled under Duncan, but prospered after he left. Would he have ever been this good as a Cardinal? Who knows?

Do the Reds really need a Pitching coach with Duncan's record with developing young pitchers?
You know, I never found a Cards fan to tell this to before, but I very clearly remember thinking during the '04 World Series that Dan Haren was the one TOTAL STUD on their entire staff, with Carpenter down at the time. I'd never even heard of him before, I still don't know if that was the common perception of him at the time, that he was going to really be something, but he definitely gave me that impression then.