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View Full Version : The Votto/Alonso "Who's On First?" situation isn't going away by itself.



Kingspoint
08-28-2009, 07:36 PM
If not for Alonso's injury, he'd be getting a call-up in a couple of days. He's not your normal draft pick. 1 full year and done in the minors, and that's just for his defense, is all he needs.

He can't play Left Field.

Votto can play Left Field.

Now it's more complicated because of the trade for Balentien.

When is Votto going to start playing Left Field? He's no Adam Dunn out there. He's as good as the average Left Fielder, keeping in mind that the average Left Fielder isn't very good in the Majors.

There's no reason to believe that Alonso can't win the First Base job in Spring Training next season. He's that good. Of course, Dusty's prejudices will keep him from winning it, just as Votto couldn't win it over Hatteburg during Spring Training.

Gomes and Nix are bye-bye, as they should be.

Taveras just needs to be released and eat the stupid contract.

With an already crowded outfield in Heisey/Stubbs/Bruce/Balentien/Dickerson/Votto/ it's time to make a decision about the First Base situation.

Dorn, Henry and Frazier are right around the corner themselves.

I have to assume there's a depth chart on the wall of the G.M.'s Office that has the 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012 project Outfields and First Base on it. There's only two possible scenarios. Alonso at First Base, or Alonso out of the Organization, and if so, then why in the heck didn't they draft Gordon Beckham. Jockety's losing my faith by the minute.

2009
1B Votto
LF Dickerson
CF Taveras
RF Bruce
UO Balentien
5OF Gomes

2010
1B Alonso
LF Votto
CF Stubbs
RF Bruce
UO Dickerson
5OF Heisey/Stubbs/Balentien
(Stubbs or Heisey spends the first half of the season at AAA and eventually gets a mid-season call-up forcing Balentien off of the roster or sending Stubbs or Heisey back down if they're struggling too badly or replacing an injured Votto/Dickerson/Bruce)

or,
2010
1B Votto
LF Dickerson
CF Stubbs
RF Bruce
UO Balentien
5OF Heisey

2011
1B Alonso
LF Votto
CF Heisey
RF Bruce
UO Stubbs
5OF Balentien/Dickerson/Dorn/Frazier (If Dorn or Frazier are outstanding in Spring Training and force Dickerson/Balentien to be traded. Most likely, Dorn and Frazier are both sent back down in order to be recalled because of injuries to any of the top-5 outfielders)

or,

2011
1B Votto
LF Heisey
CF Stubbs
RF Bruce
UO Balentien/Dickerson
5OF Balentien/Dickerson/Dorn/Frazier (If Dorn or Frazier are outstanding in Spring Training and force Dickerson/Balentien to be traded. Most likely, Dorn and Frazier are both sent back down in order to be recalled because of injuries to any of the top-5 outfielders)

2012
1B Alonso
LF Votto
CF Heisey
RF Bruce
UO Stubbs
5OF Frazier

or,

2012
1B Votto
LF Heisey
CF Stubbs
RF Bruce
UO Frazier
5OF Balentien/Dorn/Henry


Walt, a decision has to be made. Dusty is highly likely to screw all of this up just as he has the past two years with his insistance on having some horrible veteran, that belongs in AAA taking up at-bats and stunting the growth of the better talent, all because he has Castellini's ear.

gedred69
08-28-2009, 11:41 PM
IF, Alonso is all we are to believe, I would suspect either he or Votto will be part of a blockbuster trade for a top of the line CFor RF. (Don't think this town is big enough for them both).

Girevik
08-28-2009, 11:42 PM
I kind of like Gomes, but I think you're right and they about have to move Votto to 3B. Before the Rolen deal I thought they might try either him or Alonso there (when Hernandez was healthy I was wanting to try Hannigan at 3B), but that's out of the picture now.

Hopefully the Reds will be able to come to a decision on their guys in the OF and make deals with the other depth to fill in other holes. The last time I can remember they did that right was when they they had two "studs" at SS: Barry Larkin and Kurt Stilwell. IIRC they got a decent deal for Sillwell (Royals, maybe??) and cemented Larkin and the cornerstone of the Reds.

steig
08-28-2009, 11:50 PM
IF, Alonso is all we are to believe, I would suspect either he or Votto will be part of a blockbuster trade for a top of the line CFor RF. (Don't think this town is big enough for them both).

I agree, I can't see the Reds holding onto both players. I think they will hold back Yonder next year and see if he completely dominates AAA, then possibly move Votto to a contender in need. Although, Boston could be looking for a 1B this offseason.

Kingspoint
08-29-2009, 12:13 AM
I agree, I can't see the Reds holding onto both players. I think they will hold back Yonder next year and see if he completely dominates AAA, then possibly move Votto to a contender in need. Although, Boston could be looking for a 1B this offseason.

There's going to be a desperate need on this team for starting pitching. Votto or Alonso could garner a major arm.

corwinator3407
08-29-2009, 12:21 AM
I was with you until this line



Gomes and Nix are bye-bye, as they should be.


First of all, Votto is not moving anywhere.

Second, how can you say Gomes should be gone? I usually agree with almost everything you say, but considering what he has done in 1/2 a season:
4th on the team in RBIs
2nd in batting average (not including Corky Miller)
4th in HRs

Fangraphs has his money value in the open marked at 3.5 mil, and he is making a fraction of that. I hope we see him back next year as at least a backup if not the every day LFer.

mlh1981
08-29-2009, 10:22 AM
I really am not a fan of the idea of possible trading Votto. I think he's the kind of guy you can build an offense around, as his numbers in most game situations/vs. rightys/lefties are pretty consistent.

This whole thing DOES get complicated if the Reds don't eat Tavares' contract for next year. I'd really like to see Stubbs next year.

Hattss
08-29-2009, 11:56 AM
With the talent level that is approaching the majors (at least by this years minor league numbers), I think that the front office has to look at moving Votto in the mid-season of 2010. That seems to be the right time frame to figure out if Alonso and Heisey can continue hitting at the AAA level. Starting either Alonso or Heisey in the majors next year would just slow their development becuase of lack of playing time.

GIDP
08-29-2009, 11:59 AM
I really am not a fan of the idea of possible trading Votto. I think he's the kind of guy you can build an offense around, as his numbers in most game situations/vs. rightys/lefties are pretty consistent.

This whole thing DOES get complicated if the Reds don't eat Tavares' contract for next year. I'd really like to see Stubbs next year.

If we expect the Reds to win some times you will have to trade guys like Votto and get the big returns like the Marlins have done. Im not saying trade Votto but if the Reds went the way of the Marlins a little more we might actually have a chance to compete more often.

BLEEDS
08-29-2009, 11:59 AM
Nothing can stop your quote in my sig line from being proven false.

Nice try though.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kingspoint
08-29-2009, 03:34 PM
I was with you until this line



First of all, Votto is not moving anywhere.

Second, how can you say Gomes should be gone? I usually agree with almost everything you say, but considering what he has done in 1/2 a season:
4th on the team in RBIs
2nd in batting average (not including Corky Miller)
4th in HRs

Fangraphs has his money value in the open marked at 3.5 mil, and he is making a fraction of that. I hope we see him back next year as at least a backup if not the every day LFer.

I say it because I feel and agree, that there needs to be an emphasis on Defense on this team in order to make the pitching better. Gomes makes it worse, while at the same time stunting the growth of the younger players. Ideally, Bruce plays 162 games, Stubbs/Heisey/Dickerson/Balentien get all of the rest of the at-bats in the Outfield.

But, you're probably right as Dusty demands to have veterans on his club, so Gomes will take at-bats away from Stubbs/Heisey/Dickerson/Balentien/Bruce.

Kingspoint
08-29-2009, 03:42 PM
Nothing can stop your quote in my sig line from being proven false.

Nice try though.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

That quote would be the best thing for this ballclub.

This is the lineup I want to see July 9, 2010:

CF Stubbs
C Hanigan
LF Votto
1B Alonso
3B Rolen
RF Bruce
2B Phillips
SS TBD-Free Agent

Bench
UO Dickerson
UO Balentien/Heisey
UI Sutton
UI Janish
C Hernandez

BLEEDS
08-29-2009, 05:26 PM
I think the Hanigan experiment is about over, we can stop with the batting him second nonsense.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

GIDP
08-29-2009, 06:53 PM
Someone is finally getting the Fall City Beer treatment from me.

Kingspoint
08-29-2009, 08:39 PM
I think the Hanigan experiment is about over, we can stop with the batting him second nonsense.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Whoever we get in Free Agency for Shortstop is batting second, so it's irrelevant.

lidspinner
08-29-2009, 08:59 PM
im still a littel miffed as to how we are counting on Yonder to step up the show and just throw Votto out to LF....we are not even sure Yonder can play O or D up here.. lets see what he does in AAA before we annoint him the 1st baseman of the future.

BEETTLEBUG
08-29-2009, 09:02 PM
I agree very much let us see what he does in triple A first. At least half year.

BLEEDS
08-30-2009, 01:12 AM
Whoever we get in Free Agency for Shortstop is batting second, so it's irrelevant.

True that, LOL!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kingspoint
08-31-2009, 08:35 PM
im still a littel miffed as to how we are counting on Yonder to step up the show and just throw Votto out to LF....we are not even sure Yonder can play O or D up here.. lets see what he does in AAA before we annoint him the 1st baseman of the future.

You may not be sure, but myself and many others I feel are very good at doing this talent evaluation thing are extremely sure. I have no doubts. I've had no doubts since before we drafted him. Nothing's happened to change that and everything's happened to support that.

Yonder Alonso is a stud who could have stepped right into the Majors without any minor league baseball at all. He's actually a better hitter than Gordon Beckham, and you see how that's working, don't you?

I saw them both play for series before the draft (not the playoffs), and while Beckham stood out far and above his teammates (half of whom were bigger, stronger and hit more homeruns than he did), Beckham was in a class by himself, already major-league ready. Exactly the same was true of Alonso, where Alonso will end up with a higher batting average and more walks. What's extremely fantastic about Alonso is he gets better with men-on-base. He's as clutch of a hitter as I've ever seen, literally a 120-RBI guy for several years, unlike Dunn because of Dunn's average and unwillingness to get the job done based on the situation. Alonso is better than Votto, but that's not why you make the switch. You make it because Alonso can't play anything other than first base. Why trade Votto when he'd be an outstanding Left Fielder for the REDS? I want both.

Alonso will have his Rookie up and downs, but at the end of the year, he'll have his numbers. The consistency will come after his rookie year.

Hondo
08-31-2009, 09:28 PM
I think the Hanigan experiment is about over, we can stop with the batting him second nonsense.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Yes, I concur...

JLO44
09-01-2009, 02:54 AM
Yonder Alonso is a stud who could have stepped right into the Majors without any minor league baseball at all. He's actually a better hitter than Gordon Beckham, and you see how that's working, don't you?

I think that this might be a little premature considering he is OPSing under 700 (672) at AA right now. Not that the talent is not there, he just has not proven that he is ready to hit AA pitching consistently, let alone major league pitching.

lidspinner
09-01-2009, 12:33 PM
You may not be sure, but myself and many others I feel are very good at doing this talent evaluation thing are extremely sure. I have no doubts. I've had no doubts since before we drafted him. Nothing's happened to change that and everything's happened to support that.

Yonder Alonso is a stud who could have stepped right into the Majors without any minor league baseball at all. He's actually a better hitter than Gordon Beckham, and you see how that's working, don't you?

I saw them both play for series before the draft (not the playoffs), and while Beckham stood out far and above his teammates (half of whom were bigger, stronger and hit more homeruns than he did), Beckham was in a class by himself, already major-league ready. Exactly the same was true of Alonso, where Alonso will end up with a higher batting average and more walks. What's extremely fantastic about Alonso is he gets better with men-on-base. He's as clutch of a hitter as I've ever seen, literally a 120-RBI guy for several years, unlike Dunn because of Dunn's average and unwillingness to get the job done based on the situation. Alonso is better than Votto, but that's not why you make the switch. You make it because Alonso can't play anything other than first base. Why trade Votto when he'd be an outstanding Left Fielder for the REDS? I want both.

Alonso will have his Rookie up and downs, but at the end of the year, he'll have his numbers. The consistency will come after his rookie year.


I am not disagreeing at all....I am of the belief that yonder can be better than Votto.....what I am saying is how many players have come in and we thought the same thing only to see them wither away in the minors because the "light" never went on? TONS of athletes have went through this, TONS...before we go putting Yonder up here helping this squad on a daily basis, lets keep our expectations low, like we did with Votto......IMO, votto was an after thought compared to Jay Bruce and even though Jay can still turn it around, i dont think he will ever sniff Joey's average and plate intelligence.......Lets let Yonder get up here and see what he can on a rotation basis for a few hundred bats in the middle of 2010, then if yonder proves he can do it, THEN, and only then do you make your MVP 1st baseman go to LF.....and if it happens that way, I will agree that it was the right move.........but you dont move Joey off 1st just because you think Yonder is going to play better in MLB than he has in the minors. That would create possibly another mess that we shouldnt have to deal with.

The main thing I am trying to to say is this.....Yonder is not just gonna step in here in April and take Joeys spot.....he should have to prove he can do it 1st......Lets take a slightly different approach then we did with Bruce....lets get Yonder up here and season him for some AB's, then when Yonder proves what he can do, then move Joey.

we are on the same page kingspoint, just different paragraph...

BLEEDS
09-01-2009, 01:13 PM
I like pizza.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kingspoint
09-01-2009, 03:46 PM
I think that this might be a little premature considering he is OPSing under 700 (672) at AA right now. Not that the talent is not there, he just has not proven that he is ready to hit AA pitching consistently, let alone major league pitching.

Forget the numbers. They don't mean anything at all. He was stroking the ball fine in the Minors and had a good plate approach.

He has no issues with his bat.

Kingspoint
09-01-2009, 03:52 PM
I am not disagreeing at all....I am of the belief that yonder can be better than Votto.....what I am saying is how many players have come in and we thought the same thing only to see them wither away in the minors because the "light" never went on? TONS of athletes have went through this, TONS...before we go putting Yonder up here helping this squad on a daily basis, lets keep our expectations low, like we did with Votto......IMO, votto was an after thought compared to Jay Bruce and even though Jay can still turn it around, i dont think he will ever sniff Joey's average and plate intelligence.......Lets let Yonder get up here and see what he can on a rotation basis for a few hundred bats in the middle of 2010, then if yonder proves he can do it, THEN, and only then do you make your MVP 1st baseman go to LF.....and if it happens that way, I will agree that it was the right move.........but you dont move Joey off 1st just because you think Yonder is going to play better in MLB than he has in the minors. That would create possibly another mess that we shouldnt have to deal with.

The main thing I am trying to to say is this.....Yonder is not just gonna step in here in April and take Joeys spot.....he should have to prove he can do it 1st......Lets take a slightly different approach then we did with Bruce....lets get Yonder up here and season him for some AB's, then when Yonder proves what he can do, then move Joey.

we are on the same page kingspoint, just different paragraph...


Yonder's a much better hitter than Bruce. I never said great things about Bruce or Votto. There are very few players I say anything about specifically, but Alonso is the only player that I've said this about other than Beckham.

If he's not playing 1B for the REDS on July 1st, 2010, then it's a mistake by the REDS. Jockety didn't draft Alonso to play any position other than 1B for the REDS, and he knew it would be in 2010.

I don't understand why there's hesitation on anyone's part to move Joey Votto to Left Field. Votto can play Left Field. It's not an issue. Moving him is also not an issue. Votto's not some prima-donna that's going to act like a cry-baby if he plays Left Field. I'm sure he wants to win and him moving to Left Field makes the team much better.

I like Pizza, too.

Kingspoint
09-01-2009, 06:10 PM
Either way, I'm looking forward to April 2010.

gedred69
09-01-2009, 08:44 PM
Yonder's a much better hitter than Bruce. I never said great things about Bruce or Votto. There are very few players I say anything about specifically, but Alonso is the only player that I've said this about other than Beckham.

If he's not playing 1B for the REDS on July 1st, 2010, then it's a mistake by the REDS. Jockety didn't draft Alonso to play any position other than 1B for the REDS, and he knew it would be in 2010.

I don't understand why there's hesitation on anyone's part to move Joey Votto to Left Field. Votto can play Left Field. It's not an issue. Moving him is also not an issue. Votto's not some prima-donna that's going to act like a cry-baby if he plays Left Field. I'm sure he wants to win and him moving to Left Field makes the team much better.

I like Pizza, too.

I hope your assertions are correct, but how can you know all you are stating to be fact? Do you pal around with Votto and know him that well? What IF Votto isn't keen on moving? Trade him? As good as Alonso looks, I can't ever forget '77, when the Reds shuffled off future HOFer Perez, to make room for the can't miss Driessen.

BLEEDS
09-02-2009, 03:01 PM
I hope your assertions are correct, but how can you know all you are stating to be fact? Do you pal around with Votto and know him that well? What IF Votto isn't keen on moving? Trade him? As good as Alonso looks, I can't ever forget '77, when the Reds shuffled off future HOFer Perez, to make room for the can't miss Driessen.

Oh No He Dinnut go there!!!

I don't think it would be THAT extreme, but I agree Alonso needs to show he can dominate AAA pitching before we start worrying about who he's going to dethrone.

IMHO, I think his best value to this team is as a Trading Chip, for a Big Name FA SP, or for a veteran/proven/top prospect SS or LF.

PEACE

-BLEEDS