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Chip R
09-23-2009, 08:37 PM
That's essentially giving himself enough rope to hang himself.

I can't imagine tOSU's AD will come down with an edict saying "Hire an Offensive Coordinator, or I'm firing you."


Probably not but I can't imagine them firing him regardless. I'm just asking the fans if they were the AD would they fire him if he didn't relinquish the play calling duties.

improbus
09-23-2009, 08:53 PM
True enough. I honestly think all 3 of them are over-rated, as strange as that may sound. Opinions on Meyer will continue to develop after Tebow leaves. That should be interesting. I have to add that my perception is kinda skewed since none of the teams that I have a rooting interest in are, or will ever be, in national championship contention.

So, Meyer's undefeated season at Utah is worth nothing either? Or the fact that he got Alex Smith to be the #1 pick in the NFL Draft? Now that was impressive.

MWM
09-23-2009, 09:19 PM
Great read from Chris Brown at Rivals. I think he must have been reading this thread.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Deconstructing-The-grisly-demise-of-Tressel-Ba?urn=ncaaf,189322




Deconstructing: The grisly demise of 'Tressel Ball'
By Chris Brown




Post-facto Xs and Os from Saturday's Ohio State-USC showdown from the proprietor of the essential Smart Football.

There's no sugar-coating this: Jim Tressel and his staff were outcoached against Southern Cal and Pete Carroll, . Again. Particularly on offense, Ohio State's gameplan against the Trojans was utter rubbish, and it failed to meet the number one requirement of every gameplan: put your players in position to succeed.

When I watched the game live, I was struck by what I considered poor playcalling and mediocre execution. But after watching the game again in detail, going over replays and studying all the players, I'm convinced the situation in Columbus is nearly hopeless. For all the talk of Tressel's buttoned-down, conservative approach, and how his teams don't make mistakes, the most basic and fundamental errors permeated throughout Ohio State's offensive plan like cancer in its late stages, and the only conclusion I could draw from this game is that Tressel -- whatever he may be as a motivator, a recruiter, a teacher of technique or as a disciplinarian -- is not up to the challenge of leading his team past others that equal his in talent. He is not good enough of a tactician to win against the national elite who, unlike practically everyone he schemes against in his conference, have the talent to match Ohio State's, and those are the only games where coaching really matters. With his facilities, talent, and resources, winning the Big Ten is not the test.

Look at the numbers. Ohio State's failure to beat a quality opponent since defeating Michigan to punch a ticket to the national championship game in 2006, Tressel's teams have been outclassed, outsmarted, outplayed and outprepared in every big game they've played.

Yet the saddest part about the Buckeyes' 18-15 loss to the Trojans is that, for the first time in the last few tries against similar opponents, the Buckeyes were not outplayed. That's what made Saturday night's performance almost disgusting: OSU's players played a hard, fast and determined game; the crowd in Columbus seemed nothing short of unreal; and the pomp and majesty of playing there more than drowned out USC's exotic traveling road show, known to transform opposing stadiums into home venues. No, this loss falls squarely on the coaching staff. And the fissures run deep.

Note that I had no stake in this game. I don't really follow either team that closely, and to be honest I can have a kind of sterilized, academic approach to football that focuses (maybe too much) on schemes, coaches, and the overall structure and flow of a game. Sometimes this leads to my undervaluing the importance of a gutsy or amazing performances by players that change how a game turns out, but my view also lays bare the raw injustice when players and fans commit everything to their team, only to have their efforts undermined and them made to look foolish simply because the plan of attack lacked any insight or creativity or was just generally too insipid to be overcome by any individual effort. Against USC, although the final score was close, the Buckeyes never really had a chance; 15 points will never get you a victory against Southern Cal. (Imagine if Mark Sanchez had started for the Trojans?) Football might merely be a game, but seeing the talent gone to waste through the insipience of their superiors will always be too much to bear.

Tragicomic. As I said, when I watched the game live I simply thought OSU could have deployed Terrelle Pryor better than it had. But re-watching the game exposed a lot of tactical mistakes by the Buckeyes, almost all of which made it exceptionally difficult for them to move the ball.

First and most obviously, OSU never once called the zone-read play. Never mind that last year it was the Buckeyes' only effective play against USC, averaging more than 6.8 yards per attempt; Saturday, the Buckeyes averaged a gangrenous 2.7 yards per carry, a number that infected the rest of the the simple-minded affair that the Buckeyes called a playbook, especially considering that the number is inflated by Pryor's third-and-long runs against umbrella coverage. Ohio State tailback Boom Herron averaged a mere 2.4 yards, and his longest gain was eight yards.

When I previewed this game, I said that mobile quarterbacks presented Pete Carroll with a math problem: How do you cover all of a team's receivers, guard the box for the run game, and account for the mobile quarterback? Fortunately for Carroll, he didn't have to solve this tricky arithmetic problem because Jim Tressel can't count.

Indeed, the overrated Senator Sweatervest essentially gave away one of his most important tactical advantages by not understanding the concept of constraint plays. Routinely, the Buckeyes lined up with two or three receivers. USC managed to play their preferred two-deep defense much of the game, which should have meant that OSU had a favorable box to run in. Except OSU forgot to make USC care whether it had its receivers split out.

http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts__21/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts-529565426-1252946065.jpg?ymRSA5BDSgeaXKGT

USC literally lined no one up over the slot receivers, and yet not once did Tressel instruct Pryor to immediately take the snap and throw the bubble screen. For most teams this is an automatic check or sight-adjustment, and it is by no means difficult (every high school runs it). Unless you force the defense to care that you are spreading the field, then all you're doing is hurting yourself; Tressel would have been better keeping an extra fullback in the game. Thus the rushing results were obvious. In the diagram above, USC has only one safety back and eight guys in the box, compared to seven blockers for OSU, not counting Pryor. Tressel called an inside handoff that was stuffed -- USC had more guys than OSU could block.

But when OSU wanted to go to the bubble screen, boy did you know it. OSU used the most idiotic formation, where they split one running back/slot out wide but kept him back at six yards deep in the backfield, where he was a threat to do nothing but run a bubble screen.

http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts__21/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts-566842819-1252946084.jpg?ymkSA5BDpVf6euxE

Were the intended receiver lined up near the line he would be a threat to run a normal route or get vertical, but instead OSU preferred to announce its intentions ahead of time. Pryor never threw the bubble because it was always resoundingly covered. And, even worse, this let the defense completely eliminate one receiver for one offensive player; a bad tradeoff for the offense, when the Trojans still have a defensive counterpart for the quarterback.

Booted. One of the most perplexing things to me when I rewatched the game is why Southern Cal's backside pursuit was always making the tackle on Ohio State's running backs on their straight-ahead power plays from traditional, I-formation sets. I thought, shouldn't they be worried about the bootleg threat from Terrelle Pryor? But as I watched closer, I realized, "No, not at all." The reason is because Pryor was not coached to make a bootleg fake at all. Instead, he would hand the ball off to the running back and, as if he was Dan Marino, stand there and watch the play. How insane is that? You take your most talented runner, and ask him to hand it off and then stand there to ensure that the defense knows it need not worry about him? And not worry about him they did; OSU's power plays were overwhelmed with Trojan defenders. The bootleg fake is one of the keys to making the power stuff go; that's why the zone-read stuff was invented, to better control that backside defender. Quarterbacks from Fran Tarkenton to Joe Montana -- guys with sensible coaching -- paved the way for this for years.

Indeed, compare Tressel's use of Pryor with Rich Rodriguez's use of freshman quarterback Tate Forcier. Against Notre Dame, Michigan had some issues with Notre Dame trying to gum up its zone reads by crashing the defensive end to always take the running back while a linebacker would "scrape" to take the quarterback -- a common defensive adjustment to the zone read. To counteract this, Rodriguez would line up with an H-back who would run counter to the direction the play was to go and simply block that defensive end, thus opening the hole for the running back. See the image below, which is from Michigan's game against Western Michigan, but the alignment is the same the Wolverines used Saturday against the Irish.

http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts__21/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts-308772130-1252946108.jpg?ym9SA5BDwTdiclux

This was a good adjustment, but there's more. When Notre Dame reacted by using the linebackers to attack the quarterback, Rodriguez then called the adjustment off the play: the bootleg pass to the H-back, who faked blocking the end and then released into the flat. On the play the quarterback, Forcier, had a run-pass option, where he could throw it to the H-back or cut upfield for yards himself. Several times in the game the H-back was wide open in the flat. But Forcier could also take off and run; this was the playcall on his 31-yard scamper for a touchdown on fourth and one. The linebackers overplayed the H-back, and he cut upfield.

http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts__21/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts-375366407-1252946134.jpg?ymWTA5BDZht8uxmT

The point is not that Pryor should be in the spread, necessarily. But Forcier is nowhere the talent Pryor is, and has succeeded wildly because he isn't stuck in an offense that refuses to play to his strengths. Against Southern Cal, the bootleg and roll-out passes Tressel called for Pryor were not the well-designed counters to looks they had shown previously, but brand new designed-just-for-this-play formations that gave away the whole game to USC. In the post-game press conference, linebacker Chris Galippo began his description of the first quarter interception that set up the Trojans' first touchdown by saying, "We talked about it all week. I saw them get into their roll-out formation ..."

And yet, OSU's offense was poorly organized even when going to their base looks, the stuff they should be decent at. Ohio State's abysmal two-minute drill (if it can even be called that) aside, Tressel and Pryor played right into Carroll's hands on defense. When Southern Cal kept two safeties deep Pryor often audibled to a run play, yet either the defense still had extra guys in the box because they ignored Ohio State's receivers, as shown above, or Carroll would rotate a secondary player down at the last minute to serve as another run stuffer. On one particularly savvy call, Carroll called a cornerback blitz from the weakside and stunted his defensive front away from the blitz, and completely cut off a Buckeye run play.

But the upshot is that Tressel got outschemed, outplanned, and outmaneuvered. He has a lot of talent on his roster, and used barely any of it. And while much credit must go to the Buckeye defense for holding the USC offense in check, OSU was lucky to even have 15 points. The Buckeyes' first 10 points were set up by good throws by Pryor that were only possible because of egregious errors by USC's safeties. On the first, safety Taylor Mays made a bonheaded play trying to get in position for a killshot on a slot receiver and completely overran him; on the second, Pryor threw a nice post route while the safety turned his back and got out of position.

This was a giveaway game, one the Buckeyes absolutely should have won. But it wasn't the kind where the quarterback makes a boneheaded play at the end of the game, or where the runningback fumbled, or the cornerback slipped and fell, or the kickoff coverage broke down. It was a game where the coaching staff let everyone down by asking its team to execute a rubbish gameplan. Many of the mistakes were subtle and maybe not evident to most fans. Indeed, one of the problems with a plan that relies on fitting square pegs into round holes is that it makes the players look really bad -- the line doesn't look like it can block, the quarterback is always running for his life, and the running backs never have a hole.

And make no mistake, this was the game for OSU to win. This USC team is very vulnerable. For three and a half quarters, freshman quarterback Matt Barkley played exactly like a freshman; as of this moment, I do not see this USC team winning at Cal. But the problems for the Buckeyes run much deeper. They go to the past and future of the program.

It would be one thing if these problems were limited to just one game, but Tressel has shown a systematic failure to adapt. "Tresselball" might have been enough in 2002, but football has evolved, and I don't just mean the "spread" offense. Tressel is apparently convinced that "conservative" playcalling is synonymous with not understanding the percentages, and consistently playing suboptimally -- he has clearly never read his David Romer. And, even more fundamentally, his brand of football is a relic, for good reason. As the great Bill Walsh explained in the L.A. Times after Pete Carroll's Trojans demolished the Oklahoma Sooners to win the 2004 BCS title:

We're witnessing the evolution of offensive football. Anyone who says you have to establish the run before you can do anything is fooling themselves. They’re living in the deep dark past. It’s just not the way the game’s played now. ...

We're never going to see that Woody Hayes-, Bo Schembechler- style of football again, that run-first mentality. The game has totally changed in a matter of eight to 10 years, and especially in the last three or four.

Walsh wrote that in 2005. And he's right. Jim Tressel is the closest thing we have to that Woody Hayes, Bo Schembechler style. This is not to say power running is gone, but the absolutely ridiculous idea that you can beat Southern Cal by running the same power play -- what Tressel calls "dave," with a pulling guard and a fullback who kicks out the defensive end -- over and over again, is to "live in the deep dark past." Jim Tressel is a dinosaur, and like all dinosaurs, not like for this world. And if I was the multi-talented Terrelle Pryor, stuck in the straitjacket of the OSU offense, I'd be thinking long and hard about where I might transfer to.

improbus
09-23-2009, 10:06 PM
If I were to divide up the big time college coaches into tiers, here is how I would do it.

Tier I: The creme de la creme. Dominant in big games and multiple National Titles
Urban Meyer
Pete Carroll

Tier II: So close to the creme. Sustained success and able to win some big games:
Mack Brown
Nick Saban

Tier III: Won National Title with other coaches players, run excellent programs but not quite able to recapture the early glory:
Jim Tressell
Bob Stoops
Les Miles

Tier IV: The solid coaches who haven't won it all.
Mark Richt
Jeff Tedford
Rich Rodriguez (still up for debate)

Tier V: The old pros that have been there forever, don't always win, but have some great occasional seasons
Joe Paterno
Bobby Bowden
Frank Beamer

Tier VI: The up and comers:
Brian Kelly
Randy Shannon

?????????????
Charlie Weis

dabvu2498
09-23-2009, 10:14 PM
Excellent article. Even I understood it. Back to a previous point, I think the loss of Dan Mullen will have quite a negative impact on Florida. Their playcalling vs. UT wasn't exactly breath-taking, regardless of how "sick" the Gators were.

KronoRed
09-23-2009, 10:21 PM
Eh, Mullen's play calling was also attacked, even as late as the last years Ole Miss game.

Meyer has had 5 different OC's in his 3 head coaching stops.

GAC
09-23-2009, 10:31 PM
That was a great article MWM. Thanks for sharing.

Chip R
09-23-2009, 10:46 PM
Good article.

dabvu2498
09-23-2009, 11:52 PM
Eh, Mullen's play calling was also attacked, even as late as the last years Ole Miss game. Meyer has had 5 different OC's in his 3 head coaching stops. Florida scored 30 and had 440 yards of offense against Ole Miss.

KronoRed
09-24-2009, 12:04 AM
Florida scored 30 and had 440 yards of offense against Ole Miss.

Didn't stop the whining that it should have been more and his play calling cost them the game, it's been a common theme since Meyer arrived.

Highlifeman21
09-24-2009, 02:54 AM
Probably not but I can't imagine them firing him regardless. I'm just asking the fans if they were the AD would they fire him if he didn't relinquish the play calling duties.

If I were the AD, I would pull Tressel into my office and tell him that between now and the end of his current contract, he needs to find an Offensive Coordinator of his choosing, or else there will be no next contract.

Tressel is great at everything except for calling offensive plays. Great recruiter, great ambassador for the program, really seems to have his stuff together for special teams, and defensively tOSU is always top notch defensively. I would hope that Tressel could swallow his pride, realize his offensive shortcomings and do what he needs to do in order to allow tOSU to stay as a perennial Top 5 program, as opposed to bouncing between 1 and 20.

Right now, Tressel is what's keeping tOSU from what should be a yearly trip to the NC, as opposed to settling for a BCS game b/c they can easily win the weak Big 10.

Roy Tucker
09-25-2009, 02:02 PM
Speaking of Tebow...

http://www.sportspickle.com/article:229/jacksonville-jaguars-to-wear-alternate-tim-tebow-jerseys

MWM
09-25-2009, 05:16 PM
The Tebow hyperbole continues to pick up steam.

GAC
09-25-2009, 05:23 PM
Tebow could be a Brown because I see them going 0-16 this year, they don't have a QB (among other things), and could end up with the #1 pick. :D

GAC
09-25-2009, 05:26 PM
Anyone read Earle Bruce's blog?

http://earlebruce.com/

Don't Start the Tressel Bashing!

I guess it is to be expected - already bashing the coach! I understand the desire to win every game but you can't criticize Coach Tressel's record. The program has been successful, Coach has been to the BCS Championship game 3 times and won one of them. Only two other coaches have done that. What alot of people are questioning is the offensive coordinator position and I will say.... I called all the plays in my 13 years of high school coaching and all the years as a college head coach, obviously with input from the assistants, but if I couldn't call the plays, I WOULD QUIT COACHIING.
It is unfair to compare the current coach to former coaches as well. Times have changed, as have the duties of a college coach now. I had to have tunnel vision on the game only to be successful. Now adays coaches are fundraisers, atheletic directors, public relations figure heads, etc.
Coach Tressel is doing a great job - he has a winning percentage against Michigan - which was what we all wanted. He won a national championship, something the previous two coaches didn't do. And he has a Strong Administration who is supporting him.
Let's refocus on winning the Big Ten - and GO BUCKS!!!

KronoRed
09-25-2009, 06:14 PM
Speaking of Tebow...

http://www.sportspickle.com/article:229/jacksonville-jaguars-to-wear-alternate-tim-tebow-jerseys
If this were true it would help their ticket sales :D

IslandRed
09-25-2009, 07:19 PM
If I were the AD, I would pull Tressel into my office and tell him that between now and the end of his current contract, he needs to find an Offensive Coordinator of his choosing, or else there will be no next contract.

That's all well and good, but there's an old saying about making sure the troops are behind you when you charge up the hill. A college AD also has people he has to answer to, directly or indirectly. You'd better be sure those people are going to back you in the inevitable him-or-me power struggle that will come from such an ultimatum. Assuming you cared about keeping the job, of course. :cool:

kaldaniels
09-25-2009, 09:04 PM
If I were the AD, I would pull Tressel into my office and tell him that between now and the end of his current contract, he needs to find an Offensive Coordinator of his choosing, or else there will be no next contract.

Yeah you could do that, but now the onus is on you to find a replacement who is better and will produce better results than Jim Tressel has done. You are now the AD who fired the coach of one of the 6-7 (some would argue top-5) most sucessful college programs over the past decade and who has dominated your #1 rival and your conference. I hope you aren't judged by someone as demanding as you are.

Highlifeman21
09-25-2009, 10:37 PM
Tebow could be a Brown because I see them going 0-16 this year, they don't have a QB (among other things), and could end up with the #1 pick. :D

Tebow shouldn't play QB in the NFL.

Some team that's horrible will try, however.

If it's the Browns, I openly welcome that.

Highlifeman21
09-25-2009, 10:41 PM
That's all well and good, but there's an old saying about making sure the troops are behind you when you charge up the hill. A college AD also has people he has to answer to, directly or indirectly. You'd better be sure those people are going to back you in the inevitable him-or-me power struggle that will come from such an ultimatum. Assuming you cared about keeping the job, of course. :cool:

My decision as AD is make or break for my own job.

Axe Jim Tressel, and suffer the consequences based on the record of his replacement.

It kind of depends how I see the football program as AD. If I'm fine with winning a weak Big 10 year after year and going to the Rose Bowl, but it would be nice to elevate our program to where we should be a part of the preseason NC buzz each year.

Highlifeman21
09-25-2009, 10:44 PM
Yeah you could do that, but now the onus is on you to find a replacement who is better and will produce better results than Jim Tressel has done. You are now the AD who fired the coach of one of the 6-7 (some would argue top-5) most sucessful college programs over the past decade and who has dominated your #1 rival and your conference. I hope you aren't judged by someone as demanding as you are.

Coaches @ top programs should be held to a different standard, no?

Hell, Pete Carroll's butt should be feelin' kinda warm after the last couple of seasons where he's lost to teams he had no business losing to. USC fans should be very frustrated with their Trojans beating tOSU @ tOSU and then losing to Washington.

cincrazy
09-25-2009, 10:53 PM
My decision as AD is make or break for my own job.

Axe Jim Tressel, and suffer the consequences based on the record of his replacement.

It kind of depends how I see the football program as AD. If I'm fine with winning a weak Big 10 year after year and going to the Rose Bowl, but it would be nice to elevate our program to where we should be a part of the preseason NC buzz each year.

Already there my friend...

jimbo
09-25-2009, 11:08 PM
It kind of depends how I see the football program as AD. If I'm fine with winning a weak Big 10 year after year and going to the Rose Bowl, but it would be nice to elevate our program to where we should be a part of the preseason NC buzz each year.

It's amazing how some seem to dismiss the 2002 National Championship and the fact that tOSU Buckeyes ARE part of the preseason "NC buzz" each year. Am I missing something here? Didn't the Buckeyes start out the preseason at #6? Doesn't being in the top 10 include them as being a part of the "NC buzz" at the beginning of the season? When was the last season the Buckeyes weren't in the top 10 preseason?

What is your definition of being a "part of the preseason NC buzz each year?" In my eyes, any team in the top 10 preseason is a part of the "buzz."

These types of comments just boggle my mind. As a fan of the Buckeyes, I know how Rodney Dangerfield feels. Some just love to hate.

Highlifeman21
09-25-2009, 11:17 PM
Already there my friend...

tOSU is in the preseason buzz for NC each year?

In what sport?

.... b/c you can't mean football.

Maybe Men's Hockey, b/c when I was there they had a damn fine team.

cincrazy
09-25-2009, 11:19 PM
tOSU is in the preseason buzz for NC each year?

In what sport?

.... b/c you can't mean football.

Maybe Men's Hockey, b/c when I was there they had a damn fine team.

You seriously don't think they're in the NC buzz every year? What other team has had more NC buzz this decade?

And BTW, not to knock Thad Matta, I'm a huge supporter. But I find it funny that you're 100% in his corner, when Jim Tressel is a better coach, recruiter, and program runner.

If any big name coach isn't living up to the expecations, it'd be the fellow running the basketball program.

Highlifeman21
09-25-2009, 11:29 PM
It's amazing how some seem to dismiss the 2002 National Championship and the fact that tOSU Buckeyes ARE part of the preseason "NC buzz" each year. Am I missing something here? Didn't the Buckeyes start out the preseason at #6? Doesn't being in the top 10 include them as being a part of the "NC buzz" at the beginning of the season? When was the last season the Buckeyes weren't in the top 10 preseason?

What is your definition of being a "part of the preseason NC buzz each year?" In my eyes, any team in the top 10 preseason is a part of the "buzz."

These types of comments just boggle my mind. As a fan of the Buckeyes, I know how Rodney Dangerfield feels. Some just love to hate.

Pretty sure none of the ESPN talking heads, not even Herbstreit, mentioned tOSU as having a legitimate shot @ the NC.

Just b/c you might be preseason Top 10, that doesn't mean you're part of the preseason NC buzz.

kaldaniels
09-25-2009, 11:38 PM
Coaches @ top programs should be held to a different standard, no?

Hell, Pete Carroll's butt should be feelin' kinda warm after the last couple of seasons where he's lost to teams he had no business losing to. USC fans should be very frustrated with their Trojans beating tOSU @ tOSU and then losing to Washington.

And there in lies the difference in this discussion. For me, I live in a world where Tressel and Carroll are 2 of the 10 best coaches in the land, no doubt. You live in a world where Tressel and Carroll should be on the hot seat. I fear no amount of debate can bring us together in that regard.

improbus
09-26-2009, 10:56 AM
Pretty sure none of the ESPN talking heads, not even Herbstreit, mentioned tOSU as having a legitimate shot @ the NC.

Just b/c you might be preseason Top 10, that doesn't mean you're part of the preseason NC buzz.

It is a pretty short list at the top. Florida, Texas, ummm......is there anyone else left?

traderumor
09-26-2009, 11:09 AM
You seriously don't think they're in the NC buzz every year? What other team has had more NC buzz this decade?

And BTW, not to knock Thad Matta, I'm a huge supporter. But I find it funny that you're 100% in his corner, when Jim Tressel is a better coach, recruiter, and program runner.

If any big name coach isn't living up to the expecations, it'd be the fellow running the basketball program.Yea, he ought to quit recruiting those first round NBA draft choices.

jimbo
09-26-2009, 11:46 AM
Pretty sure none of the ESPN talking heads, not even Herbstreit, mentioned tOSU as having a legitimate shot @ the NC.

Just b/c you might be preseason Top 10, that doesn't mean you're part of the preseason NC buzz.

Then your "NC buzz" list must be very short from year to year.

First off, I could care less what the "ESPN talking heads" really think. Holtz picked Notre Dame for heaven's sake. I don't go to ESPN for my college football analysis, or for any sports analysis.

I just can't understand how a team can be ranked #6 and not be a part of the "buzz." There's been several years when the Buckeyes weren't part of the "buzz," as you put it, but ended up part of it come season's end.

Buckeyes Preseason Rankings:

2009 - #6
2008 - #2
2007 - #11
2006 - #1
2005 - #6
2004 - #9
2003 - #2
2002 - #13 I'll give Tressel a pass on this one.

Average - 6

Not too many coaches can match that over the same time period. The criticism of this guy just continues to be over the top. The haters seem to come up with new stuff every year.

GAC
09-26-2009, 12:11 PM
First off, I could care less what the "ESPN talking heads" really think. Holtz picked Notre Dame for heaven's sake.

And says that ND's coach is the most under-rated coach in college football. The guy is in la-la land. And you can add Mark May to that list too. One deeply opinionated and partisan dude.

I do like to listen to Herbstreit and Corso though.

Yachtzee
09-26-2009, 02:42 PM
My decision as AD is make or break for my own job.

Axe Jim Tressel, and suffer the consequences based on the record of his replacement.

It kind of depends how I see the football program as AD. If I'm fine with winning a weak Big 10 year after year and going to the Rose Bowl, but it would be nice to elevate our program to where we should be a part of the preseason NC buzz each year.

You're assuming you would survive an attempt to axe Tressel. Tressel has a lot of pull with the alumni and the administration. He gained that pull by having a thorough understanding of the culture and tradition at Ohio State. He knows the importance of connecting to the fans and not only promotes his own team, but other institutions at the school, particularly the marching band. He also bucks the mercenary trend of major college coaching in that he isn't jetting off to listen to the next big money offer from other schools or pro teams after the season ends. I think it would take a major recruiting scandal or a poor record in the Big Ten over the next decade for him to lose that pull. At this point, any power struggle between him and an AD is more than likely to be lost by the AD and possibly cost the AD his job.

Preseason buzz is pretty much worthless. During the John Cooper era, the Buckeyes started many a season as the #1 or #2 ranked team. They would then go through the season beating up on weak non-conference opponents and running the table on the Big Ten only to lose to Michigan and end up missing out on not only National Championship consideration, but missing the Rose Bowl as well. Jim Tressel has changed that. He started with putting emphasis on vanquishing Michigan. Then he started beefing up the non-conference schedule by putting teams like Texas and USC on there on a regular basis. Now he has a program that forces itself into National Championship consideration every year by its play on the field.

IslandRed
09-26-2009, 02:57 PM
My decision as AD is make or break for my own job.

Axe Jim Tressel, and suffer the consequences based on the record of his replacement.


You're assuming you would survive an attempt to axe Tressel. Tressel has a lot of pull with the alumni and the administration. ... At this point, any power struggle between him and an AD is more than likely to be lost by the AD and possibly cost the AD his job.

Yep. That's why I mentioned about being sure the university president and power brokers have your back. If OSU is like most universities, the AD runs the department but doesn't have the iron fist of unilateral authority on something as important as the head football coach. There are too many other factors involved -- buyouts, effect on ticket sales and booster donations, etc. The mere attempt to fire the coach without clearing it first is probably a firing offense in its own right.

improbus
09-27-2009, 06:25 PM
OSU has the capability of being a USC/Florida level program. But, can Tressel be the one to get them there?

traderumor
09-27-2009, 09:47 PM
OSU has the capability of being a USC/Florida level program. But, can Tressel be the one to get them there?There are dozens of posts already in this thread rightfully arguing that their record in this decade is elite already.

improbus
09-27-2009, 10:02 PM
There are dozens of posts already in this thread rightfully arguing that their record in this decade is elite already.
He is in the upper eschelon, but is dominating the Big Ten and losing big game after big game good enough for OSU fans? One game is a fluke, but 2-9 is more than a trend. Elite coaches have to win some elite games. Do elite coaches fan bases go into big games just hoping "not to be embarrassed"?

Think about it this way. Given the choice would you trade Jim Tressel for Urban Meyer or Pete Carroll? Second, would Florida or USC even consider that trade? OSU might not make the trade based on Tressel's image and popularity, but Florida and USC would laugh at OSU's offer. How about Nick Saban or Mack Brown? Now we're getting closer. Those are huge names with huge expectations, but Tressel set the bar in Columbus higher than it has been since Woody's teams in the '70's and I'm not too sure that he can live up to those expectations.

jimbo
09-27-2009, 11:21 PM
Those are huge names with huge expectations, but Tressel set the bar in Columbus higher than it has been since Woody's teams in the '70's and I'm not too sure that he can live up to those expectations.

I think he's already lived up to those expectations. I don't know what your 2-9 record represents, but it sure isn't looking at the overall product. How many years does that go back? Last I checked he is 8-8 against top 5 teams in his career at tOSU. Are you saying that because he has hit a rough spot against top 5 teams that all of the sudden he can't coach up to our "expectations?"

And would I trade him for any of the coaches you mentioned? Not in heartbeat.

Yachtzee
09-27-2009, 11:50 PM
He is in the upper eschelon, but is dominating the Big Ten and losing big game after big game good enough for OSU fans? One game is a fluke, but 2-9 is more than a trend. Elite coaches have to win some elite games. Do elite coaches fan bases go into big games just hoping "not to be embarrassed"?

Think about it this way. Given the choice would you trade Jim Tressel for Urban Meyer or Pete Carroll? Second, would Florida or USC even consider that trade? OSU might not make the trade based on Tressel's image and popularity, but Florida and USC would laugh at OSU's offer. How about Nick Saban or Mack Brown? Now we're getting closer. Those are huge names with huge expectations, but Tressel set the bar in Columbus higher than it has been since Woody's teams in the '70's and I'm not too sure that he can live up to those expectations.

I don't thing Ohio State would touch a guy like Meyer or especially Saban with a 10 ft. pole. The administration and the fans value coaches who are committed to not only the program, but the culture, tradition, and community that supports Ohio State football. Meyer and Saban both have a history of being mercenary coaches in that you will always have to worry about whether they're jetting off to interview for the next big opening. They'll both leave you if someone throws enough money their way. With Carroll, there will always be the question of whether he'd jump at another chance in the NFL.

LoganBuck
09-28-2009, 12:42 AM
I don't thing Ohio State would touch a guy like Meyer or especially Saban with a 10 ft. pole. The administration and the fans value coaches who are committed to not only the program, but the culture, tradition, and community that supports Ohio State football. Meyer and Saban both have a history of being mercenary coaches in that you will always have to worry about whether they're jetting off to interview for the next big opening. They'll both leave you if someone throws enough money their way. With Carroll, there will always be the question of whether he'd jump at another chance in the NFL.

What do Jim Tressel, Urban Meyer, Pete Carroll, and Nick Saban have in common?

They were all Ohio State assistant coaches under Earle Bruce.

Captain Hook
09-28-2009, 01:30 AM
Can this thread please just go away?I know that it has evolved to some very entertaining and even sometimes brilliant debates and general conversation about OSU and Jim Tressel. But there is certainly no debate about weather he should be fired.If I were to stumble across Redszone for the first time and see that one of the most popular threads was about weather Jim Tressel should be fired I probably wouldn't return.

I don't want to get beat up for making this suggestion but I'm just tired of seeing Jim Tressel and the word FIRED in the same sentence every time I click on the site.

*BaseClogger*
09-28-2009, 01:54 AM
Can this thread please just go away?I know that it has evolved to some very entertaining and even sometimes brilliant debates and general conversation about OSU and Jim Tressel. But there is certainly no debate about weather he should be fired.If I were to stumble across Redszone for the first time and see that one of the most popular threads was about weather Jim Tressel should be fired I probably wouldn't return.

I don't want to get beat up for making this suggestion but I'm just tired of seeing Jim Tressel and the word FIRED in the same sentence every time I click on the site.

Hey now, 16.67% of voters said he should be fired... :thumbup:

cincrazy
09-28-2009, 09:09 AM
Can this thread please just go away?I know that it has evolved to some very entertaining and even sometimes brilliant debates and general conversation about OSU and Jim Tressel. But there is certainly no debate about weather he should be fired.If I were to stumble across Redszone for the first time and see that one of the most popular threads was about weather Jim Tressel should be fired I probably wouldn't return.

I don't want to get beat up for making this suggestion but I'm just tired of seeing Jim Tressel and the word FIRED in the same sentence every time I click on the site.

How dare you decide to integrate sanity into this discussion.

GAC
09-28-2009, 10:20 PM
Should Carroll be fired after some of his losses over the last few years vs teams he should have easily beat?

At least OSU beats the teams they are suppose to. That's not the problem with Tressel. It's those national "marquee" games, and his approach and preparation that have many questioning him.

cincrazy
09-28-2009, 11:47 PM
Should Carroll be fired after some of his losses over the last few years vs teams he should have easily beat?

At least OSU beats the teams they are suppose to. That's not the problem with Tressel. It's those national "marquee" games, and his approach and preparation that have many questioning him.

Exactly.

He should undoubtedly be questioned, I'm not disputing that. But no way is his job in jeopardy.

Highlifeman21
09-29-2009, 12:52 AM
Can this thread please just go away?I know that it has evolved to some very entertaining and even sometimes brilliant debates and general conversation about OSU and Jim Tressel. But there is certainly no debate about weather he should be fired.If I were to stumble across Redszone for the first time and see that one of the most popular threads was about weather Jim Tressel should be fired I probably wouldn't return.

I don't want to get beat up for making this suggestion but I'm just tired of seeing Jim Tressel and the word FIRED in the same sentence every time I click on the site.

I would hope someone coming to RedsZone would care more about the quality of conversation concerning the Reds, as opposed to conversation pertaining to The Ohio State University Buckeyes.

traderumor
09-29-2009, 02:57 PM
I would hope someone coming to RedsZone would care more about the quality of conversation concerning the Reds, as opposed to conversation pertaining to The Ohio State University Buckeyes.That makes a lot of sense--"hey, this conversation isn't about the Reds, so let the bad arguments fly." :confused:

Chip R
09-29-2009, 04:33 PM
That makes a lot of sense--"hey, this conversation isn't about the Reds, so let the bad arguments fly." :confused:


Think of it as the instructional league or the Arizona Fall League. A place where people can hone their arguing skills during the off season. ;)

Captain Hook
09-29-2009, 04:52 PM
Think of it as the instructional league or the Arizona Fall League. A place where people can hone their arguing skills during the off season. ;)

I guess debating weather Tressel should be fired is about the same as debating weather Dusty Baker should be fired.There's no question about what the right answer is to either question.

traderumor
09-29-2009, 05:26 PM
Think of it as the instructional league or the Arizona Fall League. A place where people can hone their arguing skills during the off season. ;)No, that's the Sun Deck ;)

Roy Tucker
09-29-2009, 06:37 PM
There's no question about what the right answer is to either question.

I keep trying to parse this sentence but my brain gets stuck in a loop and I have to whomp myself upside my haid.

improbus
09-29-2009, 07:59 PM
I don't thing Ohio State would touch a guy like Meyer or especially Saban with a 10 ft. pole. The administration and the fans value coaches who are committed to not only the program, but the culture, tradition, and community that supports Ohio State football. Meyer and Saban both have a history of being mercenary coaches in that you will always have to worry about whether they're jetting off to interview for the next big opening. They'll both leave you if someone throws enough money their way. With Carroll, there will always be the question of whether he'd jump at another chance in the NFL.
I'm not sure that I would label Meyer as a rent-a-coach quite yet (unlike Saban). Meyer has made logical moves that any up-and-coming coach would make. Bowling Green and Utah aren't permanent jobs for someone with his pedigree, whereas Florida is. We'll know more about Urban when Tebow leaves.

improbus
09-29-2009, 08:52 PM
I do not think that Tressel needs to be fired, that does seem to be a bit drastic. But, what I have been trying to argue is that his rankings in the last 5 years have been inflated by a weak conference. Here are the Big Ten's conference rankings in the last 5 years according to Jeff Sagarin (and keep in mind that there are 6 "BCS" conferences).
Year - Big Ten Ranking - OSU Record
2009 - 6th - 3-1
2008 - 6th - 10-3
2007 - 6th - 11-2
2006 - 5th - 12-1
2005 - 1st - 10-2
2004 - 5th - 8-4
2003 - 3rd - 11-2
2002 - 5th - 14-0
2001 - 5th - 7-5
Now, Sagarin's rankings aren't the be-all end-all statistics, (just look at his individual team rankings) but they are good enough to be a part of the BCS ranking system. In the last 5 years (w/ the obvious exception of 2005), the Big Ten has been alot closer to the Big East than to the Big 12 or SEC.

cincrazy
09-29-2009, 08:53 PM
I do not think that Tressel needs to be fired, that does seem to be a bit drastic. But, what I have been trying to argue is that his rankings in the last 5 years have been inflated by a weak conference. Here are the Big Ten's conference rankings in the last 5 years according to Jeff Sagarin (and keep in mind that there are 6 "BCS" conferences).
Year - Big Ten Ranking - OSU Record
2009 - 6th - 3-1
2008 - 6th - 10-3
2007 - 6th - 11-2
2006 - 5th - 12-1
2005 - 1st - 10-2
2004 - 5th - 8-4
2003 - 3rd - 11-2
2002 - 5th - 14-0
2001 - 5th - 7-5
Now, Sagarin's rankings aren't the be-all end-all statistics, (just look at his individual team rankings) but they are good enough to be a part of the BCS ranking system. In the last 5 years (w/ the obvious exception of 2005), the Big Ten has been alot closer to the Big East than to the Big 12 or SEC.

I agree with you, to a certain extent.

I think in 2007 and 2008, his numbers were very much inflated.

But in 2005 and 2006, those teams were legit good IMO, and very talented. Last few editions, not so much. Although this year's team is closer.

Highlifeman21
09-29-2009, 09:02 PM
That makes a lot of sense--"hey, this conversation isn't about the Reds, so let the bad arguments fly." :confused:

I think there have been good arguments from all parties within this thread.

improbus
09-29-2009, 09:24 PM
The "trouble" with Tressel is that even if his performance drops, he will be extremely difficult to drop. If you were going to draw up the subconscious idea of a football coach from Ohio, Tressel would be that guy. He's great in the community, great in the press conferences, and has a fantastic sense of what it means to be Ohio State's Head Coach. It would be like firing your favorite uncle.

PapaBear
09-29-2009, 09:48 PM
He will have to lose to Michigan, lose the bowl game, and probably another two losses before it should even be considered.

Hoosier Red
09-30-2009, 12:08 PM
Or. He could lose this weekend in Bloomington. That would probably get the ball rolling.

LoganBuck
09-30-2009, 01:20 PM
Or. He could lose this weekend in Bloomington. That would probably get the ball rolling.

Loganbuck's bold prediction.

OSU 34
Indiana 7

Spring~Fields
09-30-2009, 01:41 PM
Or. He could lose this weekend in Bloomington. That would probably get the ball rolling.

Only if his defense misses the bus. :) and his field goal kicker gets his leg stuck in an elevator.

On the question of terminating Tressell, I keep coming back to, don't they need a better than Tressell before considering replacing him in line?

BRM
09-30-2009, 04:21 PM
Or. He could lose this weekend in Bloomington. That would probably get the ball rolling.

I like the cut of your jib.

improbus
10-03-2009, 09:18 AM
I saw an interesting story in this mornings Dispatch that looks promising for Tressel and his offensive strategy.


OSU shotgun deals blow to 'I'
Switch in formations seems to fit Herron, Pryor, offensive line
Saturday, October 3, 2009 3:28 AM
By Ken Gordon
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
<a href='http://www.dispatch.com/gameday'>Ohio State-Indiana coverage</a>

The first question to tight-ends coach John Peterson this week was one of those "I'm joking, but not really" questions: "So, Coach, is the I formation dead now at Ohio State?"

To which Peterson smiled and replied, "I don't think the I will ever be dead here."

Maybe not, but through three games, it looked terminally ill.

Through two weeks, the Buckeyes averaged 3.5 yards per carry and did not have a rush longer than 19 yards. After an 18-15 loss to Southern California, receiver DeVier Posey said: "We've got some holes in our offense."

Even in the third game, when OSU rushed for 247 yards against Toledo, not all was right. The Buckeyes continued to struggle in short-yardage situations out of the I formation: Tailback Daniel Herron gained no yards on two carries inside the Rockets' 5-yard line.

After that game, OSU ranked 51st nationally in rushing, at 167 yards per game. The next day, coach Jim Tressel told his staff that something had to change.

"We had played three games, and there was finally some statistical data and some realistic things that you could put your thumb on and say, 'OK, here's what we've done well,' " Tressel said. "And now, 'OK, maybe we need to do this a little more.' "

Statistical data? The naked eye should have told him OSU was not a power-run, I-formation team. Herron is tough for his size (5-10, 193 pounds), but he's not a true bull, like the departed Chris "Beanie" Wells.

The offensive line was struggling to blow people backward, and the favored power-run play, featuring a pulling guard, was often painfully slow to develop and easily knocked awry.

However Tressel arrived at the conclusion, the solution worked. Last week against Illinois, the Buckeyes operated almost exclusively out of the shotgun -- with one running back -- and overwhelmed the Illini, piling up 231 rushing yards at 5.1 a carry on the way to a 30-0 victory.

Afterward, the players were thrilled.

"We were definitely more comfortable with some things that we ran," said Herron, who suffered a twisted ankle against Illinois and might be limited today. "We changed up a little bit, and I think that's what really kind of opened it up for us."

One key to the new look is spreading the field with three or four receivers, which takes defenders out of the "box" -- the area close to the line of scrimmage.

Illinois often had five defensive backs either wide or deep, leaving six players to be blocked by six OSU players. In the past, when the Buckeyes were in the I, safeties and linebackers cheated up close, anticipating the power run and outnumbering the blockers.

Another key is quarterback Terrelle Pryor's running ability. He is OSU's leading rusher, with 235 yards and a 6.0 average. Out of the shotgun, that threat increases.

"I think if you're a defense, you're a little more concerned about the quarterback as a runner when he's in the shotgun as opposed to (him) having to go backwards to run forwards," Tressel said.

Finally, more high schools are running a version of the spread offense these days. Offensive linemen come to college accustomed to zone blocking and blocking on an angle more than the old-fashioned, knock-'em-backward style.

Peterson obviously wasn't about to reveal this week's game plan and commit to running the same plays from the same looks. But clearly, the offense has turned a page and is not eager to turn back.

"Obviously, we had a lot of success with it, and it's part of the offense and part of the toolbox," Peterson said. "As long as we keep growing and learning with it and have success, it will be part of it."
Miller out tonight

It appears that Ohio State will be without backup left tackle Andrew Miller for tonight's game at Indiana. A source close to the team said Miller was suffering from flu-like symptoms and did not make the trip.

OSU coach Jim Tressel said on Thursday that several players were touch-and-go on whether they would be available for the game, and he also said that freshman tackle Marcus Hall could see his first action of the season.

Dispatch reporter Tim May contributed to this story.

I think 90% of Buckeye nation could have told Jimmy Tressel that the I Formation was dead in CFB. Actually, people were making that same complaint with Cooper in the '90's, even before the spread took over.

*BaseClogger*
10-04-2009, 12:16 AM
I saw an interesting story in this mornings Dispatch that looks promising for Tressel and his offensive strategy.


I think 90% of Buckeye nation could have told Jimmy Tressel that the I Formation was dead in CFB. Actually, people were making that same complaint with Cooper in the '90's, even before the spread took over.

The I-form ain't dead... it just went home...

LoganBuck
10-04-2009, 08:06 AM
I saw an interesting story in this mornings Dispatch that looks promising for Tressel and his offensive strategy.


I think 90% of Buckeye nation could have told Jimmy Tressel that the I Formation was dead in CFB. Actually, people were making that same complaint with Cooper in the '90's, even before the spread took over.

It just has to match your personnel. There is no Beanie Wells type on this roster. Wisconsin will be running the I formation next week, and stopping John Clay will be no small task. That dude is awesome.

Highlifeman21
10-04-2009, 10:51 AM
The I-form ain't dead... it just went home...

I think Tressel would be more effective if he didn't use the fullback as a traditional blocking back.

Not that I want him to go all West Coast and use dual halfbacks, or make running backs a primary target for the QB, but there's nothing wrong with throwing the ball to running backs, or sliding the upback (typically the fullback in Tressel's world) to either side and not running a strict I.

Mix it up a little, have some fun, use those athletes.

*BaseClogger*
10-04-2009, 02:06 PM
I think Tressel would be more effective if he didn't use the fullback as a traditional blocking back.

Not that I want him to go all West Coast and use dual halfbacks, or make running backs a primary target for the QB, but there's nothing wrong with throwing the ball to running backs, or sliding the upback (typically the fullback in Tressel's world) to either side and not running a strict I.

Mix it up a little, have some fun, use those athletes.

I agree completely, not to mention the tight end... :thumbup: