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Caveat Emperor
09-13-2009, 02:42 AM
At some point, do you have to hold Jim Tressel accountable for continually struggling to win big-time matchups? This will be the 5th consecutive year that Tressel's OSU team has lost to a Top-3 team:

2009: Lost to #3 USC
2008: Lost to #1 USC, Lost to #3 Penn State, Lost to #3 Texas
2007: Lost to #2 LSU (National Title Game)
2006: Lost to #2 Florida (National Title Game)
2005: Lost to #2 Texas, Lost to #18 Penn State

With each passing year, 2002 gets further in the rear-view mirror. Assuming this loss effectively derails OSU's national title hopes for 2009 (which may or may not be the case), should Jim Tressel be fired at the end of 2009? Is it time for new blood to take over in Columbus?

Brutus
09-13-2009, 02:48 AM
At some point, do you have to hold Jim Tressell accountable for continually struggling to win big-time matchups? This will be the 5th consecutive year that Tressel's OSU team has lost to a Top-3 team:

2009: Lost to #3 USC
2008: Lost to #1 USC, Lost to #3 Penn State, Lost to #3 Texas
2007: Lost to #2 LSU (National Title Game)
2006: Lost to #2 Florida (National Title Game)
2005: Lost to #2 Texas, Lost to #18 Penn State

With each passing year, 2002 gets further in the rear-view mirror. Assuming this loss effectively derails OSU's national title hopes for 2009 (which may or may not be the case), should Jim Tressell be fired at the end of 2009? Is it time for new blood to take over in Columbus?

I hate to think of firing someone that wins close to 80 percent of their games. But Tresselball certainly is a broken methodology. I have come to loathe the willingness to simply punt and play defense. No matter how good your defense is, if you are not aggressive offensively, sooner or later the defense simply cannot continue to play at that level. It's happened so many times over the past five years I've lost count.

I liken his philosophy to driving in snow. It's said when hitting an ice patch, you tap the breaks and let off the gas. Don't overcompensate. Tressel approaches his offense as an overly-defensive driver. With every ice patch, he slams on the breaks and if he makes it through without ending up in a ditch, he slows down to a snail's speed.

Ohio State loses these games because he puts his team in a position they can't win games, but rather hope to not lose. It's cliche but it's the truth.

Would I fire him? I'd have a hard time pulling that trigger. But if I'm in the AD, I think I almost demand he hire a real, bonafide offensive coordinator from outside the program and ensure Tressel is willing to give him the reigns to the offense.

Too many talented players in that program, even on the offensive side of the ball, to play defensive offense. Attack. Try to score points. Instead of sitting on 5, 7 and 14-point leads... try to put the game out of reach.

And as far as 2002: with more and more samples of Tresselball, it's becoming clear that 2002 was exactly what its detractors claimed it was: a whole lot of luck and good fortune. It was a good team, but it truly was an outlier to the best methods of success. That team should not have been 14-0 in hindsight, taking nothing away from the fact they did win the games luck or not.

Captain Hook
09-13-2009, 02:56 AM
Shouldn't be any question here although considering the timing of the poll I imagine there will be a few yes votes.

*BaseClogger*
09-13-2009, 03:09 AM
What's his record against Michigan? Oh wait, I'm pleased...

WVRed
09-13-2009, 07:16 AM
What's his record against Michigan? Oh wait, I'm pleased...

If Rich Rodriguez is ever given enough time (and I don't believe he will), that could very well change too.

traderumor
09-13-2009, 07:57 AM
Change it "fired as offensive coordinator and playcaller" and I vote yes. He is a great head coach. Leave the offense to someone else and they would take it to a new level.

reds1869
09-13-2009, 08:11 AM
Change it "fired as offensive coordinator and playcaller" and I vote yes. He is a great head coach. Leave the offense to someone else and they would take it to a new level.

This. He is a master recruiter and motivator. He is a terrible playcaller. No way, no how do you fire someone with his track record.

GAC
09-13-2009, 09:01 AM
Change it "fired as offensive coordinator and playcaller" and I vote yes. He is a great head coach. Leave the offense to someone else and they would take it to a new level.

Bingo!

Fire him though? Ridiculous.

The guy has won the Big 10, or had a co-share, in 2002 (along with a NC), 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008. He's 4-4 in Bowl games. Tressel became the first Ohio State coach to beat Michigan six times in seven years. Last year, the Buckeyes appeared in a BCS bowl game for the fourth-straight year and the sixth time under head coach Jim Tressel. And his overall record is 85-21.

Yeah.... lets fire the guy at season's end. :p:

top6
09-13-2009, 09:01 AM
At some point, do you have to hold Jim Tressel accountable for continually struggling to win big-time matchups? This will be the 5th consecutive year that Tressel's OSU team has lost to a Top-3 team:

2009: Lost to #3 USC
2008: Lost to #1 USC, Lost to #3 Penn State, Lost to #3 Texas
2007: Lost to #2 LSU (National Title Game)
2006: Lost to #2 Florida (National Title Game)
2005: Lost to #2 Texas, Lost to #18 Penn State

With each passing year, 2002 gets further in the rear-view mirror. Assuming this loss effectively derails OSU's national title hopes for 2009 (which may or may not be the case), should Jim Tressel be fired at the end of 2009? Is it time for new blood to take over in Columbus?

IMO, this poll should be something like: Should the statute built from Tressel in the middle of downtown Columbus be made of (a) gold or (b) bronze?

You can't fire a coach because his teams sometimes lose against top 5 teams. Tressel came to Columbus, promised the Bucks would beat Michigan, and they have - and have competed for national titles almost every year. Why do spoiled Buckeye fans assume that what Tressel does accomplish is so easy, and that it will be no problem to find a coach who can win the Big 10, recruit top classes, beat Michigan (all like Tressel) but will also be a slightly more effective and aggressive game caller?

You are NEVER going to find a coach as good as Tressel. He is going to be here forever, and he should be.

(BTW, you left off wins over Texas and a win over Michigan in 2006 that at the time everyone said was the biggest game in Ohio State history. I also seem to recall a victory over a supposedly awesome Miami team. And I think I watched Brady Quinn's sister in a ridiculous uniform watching her boyfriend destroy her brother's team in a bowl game. So while there have been some struggles in big games recently, it's not like Tressel never wins the big games, and sometimes he does quite well in them.)

I can only assume that anyone who seriously entertains this idea either wasn't alive - or wasn't a Bucks fan - during the Cooper era. Tressel saved us from that, and we can't even consider going back.

flyer85
09-13-2009, 10:24 AM
BTW, I've never liked Tressel as a coach.

MWM
09-13-2009, 10:29 AM
what TR said. NOt too many guys better head coaching than him. NOt too many guys worse coaching offense than him.

Slyder
09-13-2009, 10:41 AM
Can't believe this is being asked after almost stunning USC in a game practically everyone besides people with OSU ties saying USC ought to win....

Anyways just ask Nebraska what happens when you change coaches from a guy who average 9-10 wins a season.

*BaseClogger*
09-13-2009, 01:30 PM
IMO, this poll should be something like: Should the statute built from Tressel in the middle of downtown Columbus be made of (a) gold or (b) bronze?

You can't fire a coach because his teams sometimes lose against top 5 teams. Tressel came to Columbus, promised the Bucks would beat Michigan, and they have - and have competed for national titles almost every year. Why do spoiled Buckeye fans assume that what Tressel does accomplish is so easy, and that it will be no problem to find a coach who can win the Big 10, recruit top classes, beat Michigan (all like Tressel) but will also be a slightly more effective and aggressive game caller?

You are NEVER going to find a coach as good as Tressel. He is going to be here forever, and he should be.

(BTW, you left off wins over Texas and a win over Michigan in 2006 that at the time everyone said was the biggest game in Ohio State history. I also seem to recall a victory over a supposedly awesome Miami team. And I think I watched Brady Quinn's sister in a ridiculous uniform watching her boyfriend destroy her brother's team in a bowl game. So while there have been some struggles in big games recently, it's not like Tressel never wins the big games, and sometimes he does quite well in them.)

I can only assume that anyone who seriously entertains this idea either wasn't alive - or wasn't a Bucks fan - during the Cooper era. Tressel saved us from that, and we can't even consider going back.

Excellent post. :thumbup:

The bottom line is that you have to look at Tressel's accomplishments during his time at Ohio State and ask yourself if ANY other coach in the country could have accomplished as much at Ohio State?

Joseph
09-13-2009, 02:29 PM
Anything that introduces a little more chaos to OSU is a good thing.

RBA
09-13-2009, 02:55 PM
They lost to the better team. Since it was closer than it should have been, he did a hell of a job preparing his players for the game and coaching them during the game. His game plan gave them the best chance of winning over the superior team. It didn't work out.

Revering4Blue
09-13-2009, 03:42 PM
I voted no.

That said, I'd love to see what Wake Forest HC Jim Grobe could do with OSU talent.

Pryor would be an absolute beast in his system, and no other D1 HC continually gets more from less year-after-year than Grobe.

kbrake
09-13-2009, 04:45 PM
If you enjoy being a second level program keep him. If you want to be more than a Virginia Tech he needs to go. Of course the best solution would be to have someone else take over the offense but thats not happening. I don't care that everyone thought USC would win they got out played by Ohio State and that loss is 100% on Tressel. Time to start holding him accountable.

*BaseClogger*
09-13-2009, 05:02 PM
"Should Alexander the Great Be Fired at the End of 328 BC?"

improbus
09-13-2009, 05:13 PM
I voted no.

That said, I'd love to see what Wake Forest HC Jim Grobe could do with OSU talent.

Pryor would be an absolute beast in his system, and no other D1 HC continually gets more from less year-after-year than Grobe.

Tressel is a great at doing more with less (see YSU), OSU needs a coach who can do more with more.

Caveat Emperor
09-13-2009, 05:21 PM
You can't fire a coach because his teams sometimes lose against top 5 teams. Tressel came to Columbus, promised the Bucks would beat Michigan, and they have - and have competed for national titles almost every year. Why do spoiled Buckeye fans assume that what Tressel does accomplish is so easy, and that it will be no problem to find a coach who can win the Big 10, recruit top classes, beat Michigan (all like Tressel) but will also be a slightly more effective and aggressive game caller?

I had a friend in law school who was a gigantic tOSU fan -- he used to always say he'd be OK losing 10 games a season as long as the 1 win was against Michigan. Tressel's done a great job of that, but I think there's going to be a serious reality check once Rodriguez gets going at UM -- he's bringing the kind of offense to the Big 11 that has killed OSU in the past. I might be wrong, but that Notre Dame game should be more than troubling to OSU fans.

As for the other points -- just being the head coach at OSU (top program in one of the top recruiting states in the nation) is going to guarantee you a good class every year. Tressel does a great job recruiting, but there are lots of good recruiters out there. Hell, Phil Fullmer was one of the best recruiters in the country -- couldn't save his job at UT.

Nobody is saying Tressel is a bad coach -- but I don't know that he's a great coach either. His teams routinely fail to show in the biggest games of the year. He's been flat out-coached in several of those games, and he continues to run an offense that would be kindly described as "Stone Age" in design. The question becomes is: "Is that enough?" Are tOSU fans content with being a perennial top-20 squad that can't win the big game to get over the hump?

How many more big losses does Tressel get before enough is enough? Next year is supposed to be a great year -- if they fall flat on their faces in a big game in 2010, is it time then? I'd think, at a certain point, you'd simply have to make a change.

Brutus
09-13-2009, 05:26 PM
They lost to the better team. Since it was closer than it should have been, he did a hell of a job preparing his players for the game and coaching them during the game. His game plan gave them the best chance of winning over the superior team. It didn't work out.

I don't know how you can say that. Ohio State dominated that game. It didn't show by the score, but I don't think USC was the better of anything last night. It was his game plan that lost the game. Trying to hope your defense plays a perfect game is not a game plan - it's survival. It's hoping not to lose.

Sorry, but USC was not the better team last night. That's not to take anything away from them. They stepped up when they had to. But they scored 18 points and the first seven was a gift that they almost squandered.

Ohio State was the better team. Period. It had USC on its heels all game long. That they themselves only scored 15 is most definitely on the coaches for completely shutting things down and becoming ultra-predictable (again).

Brutus
09-13-2009, 05:29 PM
I had a friend in law school who was a gigantic tOSU fan -- he used to always say he'd be OK losing 10 games a season as long as the 1 win was against Michigan. Tressel's done a great job of that, but I think there's going to be a serious reality check once Rodriguez gets going at UM -- he's bringing the kind of offense to the Big 11 that has killed OSU in the past. I might be wrong, but that Notre Dame game should be more than troubling to OSU fans.

As for the other points -- just being the head coach at OSU (top program in one of the top recruiting states in the nation) is going to guarantee you a good class every year. Tressel does a great job recruiting, but there are lots of good recruiters out there. Hell, Phil Fullmer was one of the best recruiters in the country -- couldn't save his job at UT.

Nobody is saying Tressel is a bad coach -- but I don't know that he's a great coach either. His teams routinely fail to show in the biggest games of the year. He's been flat out-coached in several of those games, and he continues to run an offense that would be kindly described as "Stone Age" in design. The question becomes is: "Is that enough?" Are tOSU fans content with being a perennial top-20 squad that can't win the big game to get over the hump?

How many more big losses does Tressel get before enough is enough? Next year is supposed to be a great year -- if they fall flat on their faces in a big game in 2010, is it time then? I'd think, at a certain point, you'd simply have to make a change.

You may or may not be right about Rich Rodriguez and Michigan. But one thing is certain - I would not use the Notre Dame game as an example of anything. Notre Dame is no better than last year or the year before. They are still subpar on defense. They are severely limited athletically. That team is so overrated it's ridiculous. Tate Forcier looked great. No question. Michigan's offense looked tough. But Notre Dame is not a very good litmus test to determine where the Wolverines stand right now.

RBA
09-13-2009, 05:47 PM
I don't know how you can say that. Ohio State dominated that game. It didn't show by the score, but I don't think USC was the better of anything last night. It was his game plan that lost the game. Trying to hope your defense plays a perfect game is not a game plan - it's survival. It's hoping not to lose.

Sorry, but USC was not the better team last night. That's not to take anything away from them. They stepped up when they had to. But they scored 18 points and the first seven was a gift that they almost squandered.

Ohio State was the better team. Period. It had USC on its heels all game long. That they themselves only scored 15 is most definitely on the coaches for completely shutting things down and becoming ultra-predictable (again).

Great teams covert "gifts." Was that really a gift or did USC pressure the quarterback on defense and took the right angle on the pass to pick it off?

I think that's what good teams do. OSU had opportunities and to blame the loss solely on the coach just excuses their inability to convert. USC got it done and OSU did not.

OnBaseMachine
09-13-2009, 05:56 PM
I don't see how you can say OSU had the better team. I thought it was a fairly even matchup. It's not like OSU outgained USC by a large margin in total yards (actually, USC outgained them 313 to 265). I thought it was an even matchup but I thought OSU would win since they were at home and USC had a freshman QB making his first career road start. It was a great game.

RBA
09-13-2009, 06:00 PM
I don't see how you can say OSU had the better team. I thought it was a fairly even matchup. It's not like OSU outgained USC by a large margin in total yards (actually, USC outgained them 313 to 265). I thought it was an even matchup but I thought OSU would win since they were at home and USC had a freshman QB making his first career road start. It was a great game.

It was a good game. I guess if USC loss, I might of been looking to play Carroll. That's just the way it is I guess.

Brutus
09-13-2009, 06:01 PM
Great teams covert "gifts." Was that really a gift or did USC pressure the quarterback on defense and took the right angle on the pass to pick it off?

I think that's what good teams do. OSU had opportunities and to blame the loss solely on the coach just excuses their inability to convert. USC got it done and OSU did not.

The guy had a ball thrown right to him because the QB didn't see him. It's not like it was a disguised coverage or great athletic play. It literally was thrown right to him. He didn't take a single step. He just had the ball given to him.

Yes, USC converted the gift. However, it took them four tries to gain three yards to do so. USC had to fight for every yard they got last night (and they sure didn't have a ton of them).

I'm not saying USC isn't a good team. I'm not saying they didn't deserve to win the game. Not saying anything like that.

But USC was not the better team. That's what I'm saying.

Ohio State was better on defense. Ohio State has USC on their heels. Ohio State dominated the field position. Ohio State controlled the line of scrimmage. Ohio State's special teams were superb. The only thing Ohio State didn't do was convert field position into points the several times they were in USC territory. Yes, USC should get some of the credit to that. However, did you hear USC's linebacker's quotes? I think it was Gallipo that admitted they knew every key Ohio State had, as (paraphrasing) it was so predictable. That's been the point - it's easy to defend a team when you know what exactly is coming.

This is not sour grapes. Ohio State was outcoached. USC deserved the win. But they were not the better team. Their coaches put their players in a position to win, even despite being outplayed. Ohio State's coaches did that for about three quarters, but when they had a chance to finally put the game away, the overly-conservative tendencies took over and OSU went into its fetal position hoping to merely run out the last 15 minutes of the clock.

This is about the fifth time in four seasons Ohio State has lost to a top 10 opponent in this very same capacity.

Brutus
09-13-2009, 06:05 PM
I don't see how you can say OSU had the better team. I thought it was a fairly even matchup. It's not like OSU outgained USC by a large margin in total yards (actually, USC outgained them 313 to 265). I thought it was an even matchup but I thought OSU would win since they were at home and USC had a freshman QB making his first career road start. It was a great game.

Ohio State was playing with half a field all night. USC was playing with a full field all night (minus the first interception where they started on the three).

Total yards would not reflect that because Ohio State didn't have nearly as far to go as USC had.

Ohio State dominated the game, dominated the momentum. I don't know how anyone could watch that game and not come to the same conclusion. The only thing Ohio State didn't dominate was the scoreboard. Yes, that's the most important thing. But that's even more the reason I think the Ohio State offensive coaching staff lost that game.

*BaseClogger*
09-13-2009, 06:10 PM
I had a friend in law school who was a gigantic tOSU fan -- he used to always say he'd be OK losing 10 games a season as long as the 1 win was against Michigan. Tressel's done a great job of that, but I think there's going to be a serious reality check once Rodriguez gets going at UM -- he's bringing the kind of offense to the Big 11 that has killed OSU in the past. I might be wrong, but that Notre Dame game should be more than troubling to OSU fans.

As for the other points -- just being the head coach at OSU (top program in one of the top recruiting states in the nation) is going to guarantee you a good class every year. Tressel does a great job recruiting, but there are lots of good recruiters out there. Hell, Phil Fullmer was one of the best recruiters in the country -- couldn't save his job at UT.

Nobody is saying Tressel is a bad coach -- but I don't know that he's a great coach either. His teams routinely fail to show in the biggest games of the year. He's been flat out-coached in several of those games, and he continues to run an offense that would be kindly described as "Stone Age" in design. The question becomes is: "Is that enough?" Are tOSU fans content with being a perennial top-20 squad that can't win the big game to get over the hump?

How many more big losses does Tressel get before enough is enough? Next year is supposed to be a great year -- if they fall flat on their faces in a big game in 2010, is it time then? I'd think, at a certain point, you'd simply have to make a change.

Are we talking about the same Jim Tressel? The one who has won a National Championship and is 5-3 in bowl games during his time at Ohio State?

Unassisted
09-13-2009, 06:15 PM
Change it "fired as offensive coordinator and playcaller" and I vote yes. He is a great head coach. Leave the offense to someone else and they would take it to a new level.Sixthed!

Love the coach. Fed up with the playcalling.

dabvu2498
09-13-2009, 06:27 PM
5-3 in bowl games during his time at Ohio State?

Or 4-4... either one.

Caveat Emperor
09-13-2009, 06:34 PM
Are we talking about the same Jim Tressel? The one who has won a National Championship and is 5-3 in bowl games during his time at Ohio State?

Same guy -- who is also 2-9 v. top-5 opponents since 2002, and will be 7 years removed from his national title this coming January.

Does that one win buy him a lifetime contract at OSU? Or, at a certain point, do you have to think that it's time Tressel make good on all his top-flight recruiting and win another one?

Like I said -- I don't think he's a bad coach, but I also don't think he's a great coach. It's all food for thought more than anything else.

WMR
09-13-2009, 06:38 PM
Same guy -- who is also 2-9 v. top-5 opponents since 2002, and will be 7 years removed from his national title this coming January.

Does that one win buy him a lifetime contract at OSU? Or, at a certain point, do you have to think that it's time Tressel make good on all his top-flight recruiting and win another one?

Like I said -- I don't think he's a bad coach, but I also don't think he's a great coach. It's all food for thought more than anything else.

Somewhat reminiscent of the arguments you heard in support of Tubby Smith his last few years at UK. Tubby wouldn't change his assistants either (although in this case, Tressel is his own assistant, so to speak).

Brutus
09-13-2009, 06:51 PM
Same guy -- who is also 2-9 v. top-5 opponents since 2002, and will be 7 years removed from his national title this coming January.

Does that one win buy him a lifetime contract at OSU? Or, at a certain point, do you have to think that it's time Tressel make good on all his top-flight recruiting and win another one?

Like I said -- I don't think he's a bad coach, but I also don't think he's a great coach. It's all food for thought more than anything else.

I think he's a great head coach, but a very, very poor coordinator. His ability to get teams ready, recruit, etc. is as good as almost anyone. He just needs to be 50 feet away from a headset at all times. That's his only weakness. Get him a bonafide offensive coordinator and all is well.

MWM
09-13-2009, 08:28 PM
Like I said -- I don't think he's a bad coach, but I also don't think he's a great coach. It's all food for thought more than anything else.

Well, I'm as much a critic of him as anyone, but I think he could be a great head coach if he just fired himself as offensive coordinator. And people throwing out the W-L record against top teams without any context are being somewhat misleading. That is, unless you believe a blow out loss is the same as a last second one that could have gone either way. He's lost 3 of those top 5 games in the last minute of the game. So with 3 exceptions, they've played right down the to wire with top 5 teams or beat them a pretty solid amount of the time. But there will be those who come back with "a loss is a loss" but would never make the same argument for their own team. Me, I'm not going to consider a loss like last night the same as the one last year.

Having said all that, his record in those games should be 5-4, or 4-5 at the worst. And I think I can say that without any kind of bias or homerism. There's a big difference between "could have won" and "should have won". Last night and the 2005 Texas game are CLEAR should haves. Last year's Fiesta Bowl is in the middle, probably more of a chould have. The reason it's 2-9 is pretty much 100% on him, so he is the one to blame for the record. I will say this, a guy like Urban Meyer could win, or at least legitimately compete for, a national title with the talent at OSU right now. With Tressel, I don't see it happening, unfortunately. Having a modernized Big Ten would be helpful, but that's not happening any time soon, so he's not going to get any help learning how to play these games by going through his conference. One of these days, the Big Ten going to have to wake up and realize it's not longer the 1970s.

If I were Tressel, I'd go out and pay a king's ramsom for a great offensive mind out there. I can't imagine it would be that tough to get someone to come to a program with the budget OSU has, the facilities, and the talent they generally get. There are a lot of really good offensive minds in conferences like the MWC, MAC, etc... Go out and make the coordinator at BYU an offer he can't refuse. That guy came from Texas Tech and could probably make OSU's offense an elite one. In reality, Tressel has had exactly one good offense in his 9 years at OSU. And that is ALL him. We know the enemy, and he is me. Physician, heal thyself. etc, etc, etc

improbus
09-13-2009, 08:59 PM
Having a modernized Big Ten would be helpful, but that's not happening any time soon, so he's not going to get any help learning how to play these games by going through his conference. One of these days, the Big Ten going to have to wake up and realize it's not longer the 1970s.

Michigan did exactly that when they hired Rich Rodriguez, the "inventor" of the spread-option from his days at Clemson.

MWM
09-13-2009, 09:07 PM
Unfortunately, I think Rodriguez is going to be a colossal failure in Ann Arbor. But I could be way wrong about that. I'm afraid he's going to drag that program down into the mud before he turns them back into a national powerhouse.

improbus
09-13-2009, 09:12 PM
Unfortunately, I think Rodriguez is going to be a colossal failure in Ann Arbor. But I could be way wrong about that. I'm afraid he's going to drag that program down into the mud before he turns them back into a national powerhouse.

If Tate Forcier's first two games are any indication, I think Rich will do well.

*BaseClogger*
09-13-2009, 10:14 PM
Or 4-4... either one.

I got my 2001 Outback Bowl results confused there... but thanks for the correction! :) :) :)

Caseyfan21
09-13-2009, 10:28 PM
Tress is a stand up guy, a good recruiter, and a good coach. I think it's ridiculous to be calling for his head right now. OSU has won all the games they have been supposed to win, something like 42-0 against non BCS opponents. Has OSU had struggles in big national games? Absolutely. But Tress has beaten Michigan 5 straight years which is a bigger win for OSU than any of those games.

The only games I felt truly embarrassed watching were the Florida NC game and the loss to USC last year. We weren't even supposed to contend for the title against LSU and we have been close in most of the other games.

How quickly do OSU fans forget all the HUGE wins Tressel had before 2006? He won 2 #1 vs. #2 games in 2006 and he had lots of Michigan and bowl wins before 2006.

If the OSU program does anything (which I don't they will), they need to hire an offensive coordinator and get a little creativity in the play calling. That would be the only change I make.

Caseyfan21
09-13-2009, 10:30 PM
If you enjoy being a second level program keep him. If you want to be more than a Virginia Tech he needs to go. Of course the best solution would be to have someone else take over the offense but thats not happening. I don't care that everyone thought USC would win they got out played by Ohio State and that loss is 100% on Tressel. Time to start holding him accountable.

Second level program? Really? OSU has been the best team in the Big 10 since Tressel has been here no questions asked. And even if the conference takes a beating nationally it's still a major BCS conference. And OSU has been hugely successful other than major national games. The guy wins all the games he's supposed to win, which is better than a lot of other teams. Ask USC fans about Pete Carroll taking care of teams he's supposed to beat.

traderumor
09-13-2009, 10:34 PM
They lost to the better team. Since it was closer than it should have been, he did a hell of a job preparing his players for the game and coaching them during the game. His game plan gave them the best chance of winning over the superior team. It didn't work out.Anyone watching the game objectively would never make such a conclusion.

paintmered
09-13-2009, 10:38 PM
I'm have no allegiance to OSU, but it's flat out wrong to call them a second level program. In the BCS era, I rank them at #6 behind Florida, LSU, Texas, USC and Oklahoma.

Caveat Emperor
09-13-2009, 10:47 PM
I'm have no allegiance to OSU, but it's flat out wrong to call them a second level program. In the BCS era, I rank them at #6 behind Florida, LSU, Texas, USC and Oklahoma.

They're clearly a top-tier team. I'd rank only Florida, USC, and LSU above them over the last 10 years.

The question I think a lot of Buckeyes fans will ask in years to come is if the program squandered a gigantic opportunity over the last 6 years to win one or two more national titles. They've been supremely talented during that time period, dominated a dormant Big 10, and come away with nothing to show for it.

*BaseClogger*
09-13-2009, 10:50 PM
They've been supremely talented during that time period, dominated a dormant Big 10, and come away with nothing to show for it.

Only a non-Ohio State fan could say that. Any Ohio State fan would tell you that beating Michigan five times in a row makes for a really good stretch of seasons...

MWM
09-13-2009, 11:17 PM
The question I think a lot of Buckeyes fans will ask in years to come is if the program squandered a gigantic opportunity over the last 6 years to win one or two more national titles. They've been supremely talented during that time period, dominated a dormant Big 10, and come away with nothing to show for it.

I don't know. It's hard to win national titles (ask USC). And while they've had some talent, I think there's only been one, maybe two teams, talented enough to say they could have legitimately won a national title. The best team over that period blew a game they pretty much had won in Tressel like fashion to the future national champs of that season. By the end of that season Troy Smith was the full time starter and they had a sick defense to go along with the offense that was so good the following year. I think it's fair to say that at the end of that year, they *could* have beaten anyone (please note I said could, not would). That was the best overall team Tressel has had, IMO, but it didn't come together until about halfway through once Troy Smith became the starter. Too bad, they were a phenomenal team.

The following year was the year they lost to Florida. That team wasn't as good on defense as the previous team, but they were a legit top team with that explosive offense. I know some folks throw stones when any Buckeyes fans says this, but I'm going to say it anyway. I don't think that team was a dominant force, but that title game was not a real reflection of that team. They laid an egg. Florida clearly outclassed them, but it's not like Florida that year was as good as any of the next 3 Florida teams. They just showed up with a superior game plan. I think OSU could have beaten that Florida team, but chose not to show up.

The following year's team had no business in the title game. They should have lost to LSU, and would have lost to any number of teams. They were a marginal top 10 team that year at best. They were not that talented. Then last year they weren't that good either.

So I don't agree they've had talent enough to win a national title very often. Now next year *should* be different. The O-line will be really good, the defense should be strong, and I believe that's the year Pryor has his legit Heisman contention type of season. They'll also have RBs to go along with Pryor and the O-line. They're a year away. But I don't know if Tressel can make it happen as long as he's in charge of the offense.

WVRed
09-13-2009, 11:25 PM
Gonna try to hit all of these at once.


Tress is a stand up guy, a good recruiter, and a good coach. I think it's ridiculous to be calling for his head right now. OSU has won all the games they have been supposed to win, something like 42-0 against non BCS opponents. Has OSU had struggles in big national games? Absolutely. But Tress has beaten Michigan 5 straight years which is a bigger win for OSU than any of those games.

As much as I am sure everybody from OSU would love to beat Michigan, one game does not a season make. It would be the equivalent of Kentucky having the season they had this year but retaining Billy the Clyde because he beat Louisville. If Michigan is all OSU fans are concerned about, there is probably a reason this thread is being discussed.


Michigan did exactly that when they hired Rich Rodriguez, the "inventor" of the spread-option from his days at Clemson.

Some teams in the Big Ten had already started implementing the spread option before Rodriguez came to Ann Arbor. Illinois did an excellent job with it and even knocked out Ohio State a couple of years ago.

I disagree with MWM on Rodriguez, but that is only if he doesn't get a fair amount of time to get his players in. If he is given an extra season or two, I believe Michigan will return to prominence quicker than people think. When that happens, Tressel will really begin to feel the pressure unless he starts to adapt, otherwise the "x straight against Michigan" will be in jeopardy.


I think he's a great head coach, but a very, very poor coordinator. His ability to get teams ready, recruit, etc. is as good as almost anyone. He just needs to be 50 feet away from a headset at all times. That's his only weakness. Get him a bonafide offensive coordinator and all is well.

It's not really hard to recruit at Ohio State. The university is going to sell itself, and Tressel can likely pick and choose who he wants in-state. How many kids grow up in Ohio that are top recruits that leave the Buckeye state? I doubt very many. I do agree on the offensive coordinator part. Tressel is still one of the best defensive minds in the game.


Somewhat reminiscent of the arguments you heard in support of Tubby Smith his last few years at UK. Tubby wouldn't change his assistants either (although in this case, Tressel is his own assistant, so to speak).

This is exactly what this thread reminded me of. I have no bone to pick with OSU, but I can sympathize with fans who are wanting a change of pace. Tubby overstayed his welcome in Lexington and Tressel could end up doing the same if he doesn't make the adjustments.

This could all be 3-4 years down the road before we look back on this thread and see if anything is accomplished.

Yachtzee
09-13-2009, 11:31 PM
I think most Buckeye fans would gladly take Tressel over the tenure of John Cooper and his "deer in the headlights" look whenever the Bucks took the field against Michigan.

MWM
09-13-2009, 11:33 PM
I also think some highly exaggerate the whole "beat Michigan" thing. Sure, it's important but I don't think people would be happy if they go 9-3 every year while losing consistently to top non Big Ten teams as long as they beat Michigan. They say that now just to add fuel to the rivalry, but if push came to shove, I think most would rather be consistent contenders for national championships than just beating Michigan.

Yachtzee
09-13-2009, 11:39 PM
I also think some highly exaggerate the whole "beat Michigan" thing. Sure, it's important but I don't think people would be happy if they go 9-3 every year while losing consistently to top non Big Ten teams as long as they beat Michigan. They say that now just to add fuel to the rivalry, but if push came to shove, I think most would rather be consistent contenders for national championships than just beating Michigan.

I think the "Beat Michigan" issue needs context. Ohio State has consistently had great programs that turn out lots of NFL players, but their consistent roadblock to that Valhalla of the college football season, whether it be the Rose Bowl or the National Championship, has been Michigan. Beating Michigan means contenting for the National Championship. It's certainly better than those John Cooper seasons of running the table only to lose out in the last game of the season to the Wolverines and end up playing in the Citrus Bowl.

*BaseClogger*
09-13-2009, 11:42 PM
I also think some highly exaggerate the whole "beat Michigan" thing. Sure, it's important but I don't think people would be happy if they go 9-3 every year while losing consistently to top non Big Ten teams as long as they beat Michigan. They say that now just to add fuel to the rivalry, but if push came to shove, I think most would rather be consistent contenders for national championships than just beating Michigan.

My family lived in Michigan during the John Cooper years. I don't think the importance of that game can possibly be overstated...

Hoosier Red
09-13-2009, 11:49 PM
I voted no.

That said, I'd love to see what Wake Forest HC Jim Grobe could do with OSU talent.

Pryor would be an absolute beast in his system, and no other D1 HC continually gets more from less year-after-year than Grobe.

By year after year I assume you mean the last two years.

The Deacs are 0-2 losing to traditional powers Baylor and Stanford this year.

MWM
09-13-2009, 11:52 PM
I think most Buckeye fans would gladly take Tressel over the tenure of John Cooper and his "deer in the headlights" look whenever the Bucks took the field against Michigan.

Yeah, probably. By the end Cooper had lost control of the program. But my goodness they had some ridiculous teams in the 90s, they just couldn't keep from blowing that one game every year (usually Michigan).

The 1995 team was loaded with George, Dudley, Hoying, Glenn, etc... That was the Biakabatuka year. Ugh!

The 1996 team was also ridiculously loaded and played a tough schedule and was pretty dominant all year. That was the Shawn Springs slips game (a moment no Buckeye fan will ever forget). But they played not to lose that entire game. They had been doing one thing the entire season and completely abandon it for the Michigan game. That's the year they beat Jake Plummer and Arizone State in the Rose Bowl. That team could have played with anyone. I still contend that OSU had as much claim to the national title that year as Florida. Both teams played one of the only two undefeated teams and beat them in a bowl game. Both teams had one loss. Obviously Florida had every right to claim the title as well, but that was pre-BCS when the B10 was still tied to the Rose Bowl. Ironically, in the BCS system Florida would not have had a chance to even play for the title as ASU would have played FSU. That OSU team was a great one. But I'm not bitter. :evil:

Then you have the one that hurts the most, the '98 Buckeyes. That was Cooper's best and I make no apologies about saying that they were unequivicollay the best team in the country that year. It's the only year I've ever said that about so please keep the arrogant OSU fan comments to yourself and it's largely due to the fact that there were no other real great teams that year. That's the Tee Martin Tennesse national title. That was the best OSU team of my lifetime mowing down everyone all year until that fateful Saturday in November. They were dominating early like they had all year, up something like 24-7 at the end of the first quarter. Then they put it on cruise control and went to sleep thinking they had it won already (this is where Cooper's deficiencies came in). The lost to Michigan State in the last minute of the game. Still the most painful loss I can remember. Ugh! THAT was a GREAT team.

After that, Cooper was done. But that 4 year stretch from 95-99 was the most talent rich stretch maybe in OSU's history. But unfortunately, it's als the most underachieving stretch ever. They had 3 legit national championship caliber teams those years but always found a way to blow it, and not against top teams. It was always against average teams. But I still don't think the talent level with Tressel can match that stretch of time.

*BaseClogger*
09-13-2009, 11:52 PM
As much as I am sure everybody from OSU would love to beat Michigan, one game does not a season make. It would be the equivalent of Kentucky having the season they had this year but retaining Billy the Clyde because he beat Louisville. If Michigan is all OSU fans are concerned about, there is probably a reason this thread is being discussed.

This is a biased opinion, but I don't think you can possibly compare the Ohio State/Michigan football rivalry with the Kentucky/Louisville basketball rivalry.


It's not really hard to recruit at Ohio State. The university is going to sell itself, and Tressel can likely pick and choose who he wants in-state. How many kids grow up in Ohio that are top recruits that leave the Buckeye state? I doubt very many. I do agree on the offensive coordinator part. Tressel is still one of the best defensive minds in the game.

Sure, it's not hard to get a Top 25 recruiting class at Ohio State, but Tressel consistently has them in the Top 10. Moreover, Tressel and his staff are excellent at identifying underrated talent. A lot of the best players on recent Buckeye teams were not the headliner's of Tressel's recruiting classes.

There have been periods of time in the past where a lot of the best recruits in Ohio go out of state. Every year we see many of the best high school players in Cincinnati go to Notre Dame and the SEC (traitors!). Now, UC will likely become more of a force in the region. Many of Michigan's best players in the 70s, 80s, and 90s were from Northwestern Ohio. Just check the hometowns of their Heisman winners. John Cooper was a tremendous recruiter but a lot of his best players came from out of state--or at least more so than other Buckeye regimes. Tressel made it a priority to put up a wall around Ohio and get the best in-state players first. They were the players who truly understood the spirit of Buckeye football...

Captain Hook
09-14-2009, 01:08 AM
"It's not as if Tressel has been lost since 2002.Big 10 titles and Nat. Championship games are the norm and I can't remember the last time the Bucks lost to a team that didn't play in a BCS bowl game at the end of the year.There has been only 1 sub par year by OSU standards since Tressels title run in 2002 and even that year he beat Mich. and won the bowl game."


This is a post of mine from the osu vs usc thread.Simple facts that can't be disputed.

The bottom line is that if the success of a college football coach could be defined then Tressels stay at OSU would be the definition.Win your conference,beat your rival,compete for a national championship every year,and when you loose a huge chunk of you team to the NFL every year don't cry around about it, just reload and get the job done again.I know the last 3 years has had some tough losses but they wouldn't be so tough if OSU wasn't a top 10 team to begin with.

Fire Tressel?What a joke.

DTCromer
09-14-2009, 07:59 AM
By year after year I assume you mean the last two years.

The Deacs are 0-2 losing to traditional powers Baylor and Stanford this year.

They lost to Stanford? ESPN.com differs.

GAC
09-14-2009, 09:07 AM
The bottom line is that if the success of a college football coach could be defined then Tressel's stay at OSU would be the definition. Win your conference, beat your rival, compete for a national championship every year, and when you loose a huge chunk of you team to the NFL every year don't cry around about it, just reload and get the job done again. I know the last 3 years has had some tough losses but they wouldn't be so tough if OSU wasn't a top 10 team to begin with.

That's pretty much the crux of it.

I don't know of any other major sport - and I could be wrong on this - where one loss, for the most part, can pretty much destroy a team's NC chances. That certainly is a lot of pressure put upon a head coach.

Those two blow-out losses in NC games is, for the most part, what has brought a majority of this on. And as a Buckeye fan they did sting big time. But how many college coaches play just for the chance to appear in that game? And in the 8 years since he has been coach, OSU has played for 3 national championships.

I get so tired of hearing how OSU didn't deserve to be there, or they're a "second tier" team. Really? Does that apply also to Nebraska and Oklahoma when they got blown out? Geez! How many times have we seen, and even before the institution of the BCS, where two elite teams square off and there is one huge blowout?

I still remember that 1996 Tostitos Fiesta Bowl between 11-0 Nebraska and 12-0 Florida, playing for the national title. It was the year of the blizzard up here and my wife was in labor with our third child. And while she was in the stirrups in the birthing room going through a difficult delivery, the Doc and I had the game on the TV. She said if she could have, she would have strangled both of us. :lol:

But you had the Cornhusker's Tommie Frazier and Lawrence Phillips squaring off against future Heisman winner Florida's Danny Wuerffel. Final score - Nebraska 62 Florida 24.

But when it has involved OSU, well then, there's a problem.

I don't deny the superiority of the SEC over the last several years. Hard to argue with it. Personally, I find it all to be cyclical. Divisions will rise and fall. And I don't deny that the Big 10 has suffered through a period of weakness either. But I've heard people state that OSU is an elite team in the Big 10 because of the overall weakness of the division/teams.

Can the same then be said for USC and the PAC-10?

RBA
09-14-2009, 09:12 AM
Sorta of a decent post GAC. Until you got to the USC part, I was with you. ;)

bucksfan2
09-14-2009, 09:42 AM
Seriously?

This game had more to do with Pryor playing poorly than Tressel's play calling. This game had more to do with Pryor throwing an ill advised INT that was taken back to the goal line, than it did with Tressel's play calling. This game had more to do with Pryor locking into Posey for the majority of the game, than Tressel's play calling.

This was one of the worst games I have seen Pryor play in an OSU uniform. Blame it all you want on Tressel, but it was a matter of poor execution on the QB's behalf. Oh yea, and USC has a pretty good OLine and Joe McKnight is pretty good.

WVRed
09-14-2009, 10:16 AM
This is a biased opinion, but I don't think you can possibly compare the Ohio State/Michigan football rivalry with the Kentucky/Louisville basketball rivalry.

UNC-Duke would have been a better analogy.

DTCromer
09-14-2009, 10:39 AM
But you had the Cornhusker's Tommie Frazier and Lawrence Phillips squaring off against future Heisman winner Florida's Danny Wuerffel. Final score - Nebraska 62 Florida 24.

That Nebraska team was one of the GOAT. They would've blown out every NC team in the past 20 years except maybe 2-3 NC teams.

OSU was blown out vs a Florida and LSU team who were pretty good, but not great teams. Those games weren't even close. You could see how clearly outmatched OSU was on the field vs those 2 teams.

And yes, OSU could be considered a 2nd tiered team. Playing against big 10 schools isn't exactly something to brag about. Just think about it. You lost to a team that had to travel 3 time zones away, against a true freshman QB who went 15-31, and at home. Not to mention you were a 7 point underdog to begin with and would've been 13 points on the road. So barely losing to an "OK" USC team who isn't even near the USC team of old isn't good.

And talking about Tressell's NC. He need a +3 TO margin, a destroyed knee by the should've-been Heisman winner, and a trbl PI call to boot to win.

top6
09-14-2009, 11:49 AM
And talking about Tressell's NC. He need a +3 TO margin, a destroyed knee by the should've-been Heisman winner, and a trbl PI call to boot to win.

I can only assume you didn't actually watch that game. OSU dominated Miami physically the entire time - and frankly Miami was pretty lucky to still be in it at the end. Also, it was clearly pass interference. It was a brilliant coaching performance by Tressel, and he deserves all the credit in the world for it.

*BaseClogger*
09-14-2009, 12:15 PM
UNC-Duke would have been a better analogy.

Still not close IMO. Don't they play twice a season?

Hoosier Red
09-14-2009, 12:41 PM
They lost to Stanford? ESPN.com differs.


All apologies, saw they were down 17-3 and thought it was a final.

my bad.

GAC
09-14-2009, 04:56 PM
Sorta of a decent post GAC. Until you got to the USC part, I was with you. ;)

Not tryin' to slam USC Rob. But I've heard over an over that it's easy for an OSU to dominate their division when the rest of the teams are so weak. You have OSU, then the rest of the division. I look at the PAC-10 over the last several years, and I see some vast similarities.

Look at the final rankings in 2008.....

You had 3 PAC-10 teams in the top 25 (USC #3, Oregon #10, Oregon State #18)

The Big 10 had 4 teams.... (Penn State #8, OSU #9, Iowa #20, MSU #24)

2007 top 25.....

PAC-10.... USC #3, Arizona State #16, Oregon #23, Oregon State #25

Big 10...... OSU #5, Michigan #18, Illinois #20, Wisconsin #24

2006 top 25....

PAC-10.... USC #4, California #14, Oregon State #21,

Big 10.... OSU #2, Wisconsin #7, Michigan #8, Penn State #24


So in the last 3 years you've had the PAC-10 place in the top 10 four times, and three of them were USC, and Oregon once.

The Big 10 has placed six teams in the top 10 in that same time frame. OSU three times, and Penn State, Wisconsin, and Michigan.

It just seems that when you look at each of these conferences, you have three, maybe four, teams that put up some quality programs that leave the rest of the division in their wake.

I remember the day when programs like Washington and UCLA were upper tier. What has happened to them?

Brutus
09-14-2009, 05:11 PM
Seriously?

This game had more to do with Pryor playing poorly than Tressel's play calling. This game had more to do with Pryor throwing an ill advised INT that was taken back to the goal line, than it did with Tressel's play calling. This game had more to do with Pryor locking into Posey for the majority of the game, than Tressel's play calling.

This was one of the worst games I have seen Pryor play in an OSU uniform. Blame it all you want on Tressel, but it was a matter of poor execution on the QB's behalf. Oh yea, and USC has a pretty good OLine and Joe McKnight is pretty good.

Pryor was not put in a position where he could succeed. Early in the game, they were throwing a seam route that was working well. He was comfortable in the pocket, and stepping up and making some nice throws. Then what changed? Ohio State stopped throwing down field. They started going predictable with the power up the middle (which was stuffed repeatedly). The extent of the passing game was a 5-yard curl and a 3-yard out. That was it. There was one or two downfield throws in the second half and everything else was elementary. Pryor did not play well but he was handicapped so much he couldn't have done much.

I think it would downright frighten the minds of Buckeye fans to know what opposing coaches say about Ohio State's offense. Seriously... people are not quite comprehending how easy it is to defend. It's seriously predictable. We're talking about complete and total expectation of every play based on formation and key. The opponents know almost everything Ohio State is going to do and when. I know of a conversation with a very high-level coach that coached against Ohio State that called it "grade school level gameplanning" when referring to the OSU offensive scheme.

This past weekend, a couple of friends of mine that are coaches on the D-1 level in high school in Ohio watched the USC game. They had a "guessing game" of OSU's next offensive play to see who could get the most right. The winner guessed almost 45% of the plays correctly based on formation. Forty-five percent. This is a high school coach who does not have access to watching 40-60 hours a week of film.

Seriously man, Ohio State is at such a disadvantage against good teams. I don't think you realize how elementary this scheme is. Do you think it's a coincidence so many offensive performances have been dirt poor in big games in 7-8 years? It's not just Pryor. It's been Troy Smith. It's been Craig Krenzel. It's been the running game. If not for the sheer amazing talent of someone like Chris Wells, Ohio State would have had very little to show for its offense the past few seasons.

Pryor has a long way to go. No question. But his poor performance was equally on the shoulders of his coaches. USC knew everything they were going to do. Accordingly, he may as well have been playing against 15 players - because that's about what it's like when the other team knows what you're about to run.

I understand it's not easy. I understand it's not popular. I understand Tressel has a darn good resume. But it's time for people to accept this - he's woefully unqualified to be running the offense at this level. He really, really is costing his teams games against competition with similar or better talent.

GAC
09-14-2009, 05:29 PM
And yes, OSU could be considered a 2nd tiered team. Playing against big 10 schools isn't exactly something to brag about.

Says who? You?

Here's a link to the final 2008 conference standings....

http://espn.go.com/college-football/standings?year=2008

Now you show me, when looking at the major conferences (Big 10, PAC-10, SEC, Big 12, ACC, Big East), where the Big 10 seems to have an inordinate amount of sub-.500 or bad teams then any of the other conferences when looking at overall records?

Big 12 had 5, PAC-10 had 5, Big 10 had 4, SEC had 4, ACC had 3, Big East had 2.

I'm not denying that the SEC is the superior conference in college football right now. What I am denying is this "illusion", that because OSU got trounced in 2 of their 3 NC game appearances, and both times by an SEC team, it's all because they play in a second tier division.


You lost to a team that had to travel 3 time zones away, against a true freshman QB who went 15-31, and at home. Not to mention you were a 7 point underdog to begin with and would've been 13 points on the road. So barely losing to an "OK" USC team who isn't even near the USC team of old isn't good.

And talking about Tressell's NC. He need a +3 TO margin, a destroyed knee by the should've-been Heisman winner, and a trbl PI call to boot to win.

Sounds like someone who doesn't like OSU/Big Ten. ;)

Hey! That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. I've despised the PAC-10 for almost 40 years now.

As top6 already stated.... OSU physically beat the crap out of Miami in the '02 NC game. It was a hard fought game, and to say the only reason OSU won it was because of injuries to Miami players during the game is, IMO, someone simply looking for excuses to not give OSU any credit at all.

And as for saying that this year's USC team is "OK", and that OSU got beat AT HOME by an OK team, is more silly rationale. How good USC will be this year is really yet to be determined.

But if USC are vying for the NC game at season's end, or even appear in one of the premier BCS bowl games, I doubt you'd acknowledge then that OSU played a GOOD team.

GAC
09-14-2009, 05:32 PM
Seriously?

This game had more to do with Pryor playing poorly than Tressel's play calling. This game had more to do with Pryor throwing an ill advised INT that was taken back to the goal line, than it did with Tressel's play calling. This game had more to do with Pryor locking into Posey for the majority of the game, than Tressel's play calling.

This was one of the worst games I have seen Pryor play in an OSU uniform. Blame it all you want on Tressel, but it was a matter of poor execution on the QB's behalf. Oh yea, and USC has a pretty good OLine and Joe McKnight is pretty good.

You're right that it was on of the worst games I've seen Pryor play. He was very tentative, and made numerous mental mistakes.

But there is no way, when I look at a QB with the talent of Pryor, that I'd be playing him under center. That's just stupid IMO. And that's what kind of confounds me about an ex-QB coach (Tressel).

kbrake
09-14-2009, 06:59 PM
This game is as simple as Tressel not running a QB sneak ever. Getting the ball at the 2 with 4 downs to put it in and you never have Pryor just dive for it. Barkley was able to sneak it about 4 times Saturday night yet for some reason Ohio State doesnt have that play? About 3 times Saturday night Pryor could have picked up either a 1st down or TD and it would have ended the game. It is as simple as that.

Same situation against Navy when it was 4th and 1 and Tressel calls for a run. Pryor is a huge dude he can trip over his feet and get a yard. Pryor is a Sophmore playing against a damn good defense of course he will make mistakes. No excuse for Tressel we were losing big games well before Pryor showed up.

traderumor
09-14-2009, 10:27 PM
You're right that it was on of the worst games I've seen Pryor play. He was very tentative, and made numerous mental mistakes.

But there is no way, when I look at a QB with the talent of Pryor, that I'd be playing him under center. That's just stupid IMO. And that's what kind of confounds me about an ex-QB coach (Tressel).I dunno, running out of shotgun every play is just as predictable as the power I. I was calling for less shotgun during the game.

*BaseClogger*
09-15-2009, 01:17 AM
My lord. 11 people have actually voted yes to this poll?

Captain Hook
09-15-2009, 01:41 AM
My lord. 11 people have actually voted yes to this poll?

Probably Michigan fans.They'd love to get Tressel out of Columbus for their own good.

GAC
09-15-2009, 07:44 AM
Probably Michigan fans.They'd love to get Tressel out of Columbus for their own good.

Yeah! I bet less then half of them were Buck fans.

bucksfan2
09-15-2009, 08:39 AM
Seriously man, Ohio State is at such a disadvantage against good teams. I don't think you realize how elementary this scheme is. Do you think it's a coincidence so many offensive performances have been dirt poor in big games in 7-8 years? It's not just Pryor. It's been Troy Smith. It's been Craig Krenzel. It's been the running game. If not for the sheer amazing talent of someone like Chris Wells, Ohio State would have had very little to show for its offense the past few seasons.

Pryor has a long way to go. No question. But his poor performance was equally on the shoulders of his coaches. USC knew everything they were going to do. Accordingly, he may as well have been playing against 15 players - because that's about what it's like when the other team knows what you're about to run.

I understand it's not easy. I understand it's not popular. I understand Tressel has a darn good resume. But it's time for people to accept this - he's woefully unqualified to be running the offense at this level. He really, really is costing his teams games against competition with similar or better talent.

I disagree with this. Pryor was something like 15-25 on passing attempts. He wasn't scanning the entire field, he was locked on to Posey early and often. It was made even more evident with his one interception early in the game.

OSU had kind of a vanilla offense against USC. How much of that was USC's defense and how much of that was OSU's ineffectiveness on offense? USC did their best to contain Pryor and Pryor didn't make any plays. You can chalk that up to Tressel's game planning, but I think that lies more at the foot of Pryor.

OSU's offense was dynamic with Troy Smith at the helm. But it always wasn't that way. Early on in his starting career Smith was a run first QB. As he progressed in his decision making capacity, he became more of a passer with the threat to run. As Pryor gets a better handle of the OSU offense he will be more at liberty to make plays. The offense will open up and he will have more flexibility to make plays and decisions. Right now I just don't know if he is there yet. Its not a knock on him, more a reality that he is a true soph who still makes poor decisions. When he is called on to run the option he really hasn't been all that effective at it. And down on the goal line he made the unfortunate decision to try and flip the ball while being tackled.

The offense will get better and more open but most of that is based upon Pryor. He has to learn the offense and better understand the offense. He has the freakish ability to use his legs to make plays, he just needs to better harness that ability. We will see how much Pryor has improved when OSU goes into Happy Valley in a few weeks.

kbrake
09-15-2009, 10:13 AM
5 years from now this poll will be the exact opposite. Just because some of us see the writing on the wall doesn't mean we are not Buckeye fans.

traderumor
09-15-2009, 10:14 AM
I disagree with this. Pryor was something like 15-25 on passing attempts. He wasn't scanning the entire field, he was locked on to Posey early and often. It was made even more evident with his one interception early in the game.

OSU had kind of a vanilla offense against USC. How much of that was USC's defense and how much of that was OSU's ineffectiveness on offense? USC did their best to contain Pryor and Pryor didn't make any plays. You can chalk that up to Tressel's game planning, but I think that lies more at the foot of Pryor.

OSU's offense was dynamic with Troy Smith at the helm. But it always wasn't that way. Early on in his starting career Smith was a run first QB. As he progressed in his decision making capacity, he became more of a passer with the threat to run. As Pryor gets a better handle of the OSU offense he will be more at liberty to make plays. The offense will open up and he will have more flexibility to make plays and decisions. Right now I just don't know if he is there yet. Its not a knock on him, more a reality that he is a true soph who still makes poor decisions. When he is called on to run the option he really hasn't been all that effective at it. And down on the goal line he made the unfortunate decision to try and flip the ball while being tackled.

The offense will get better and more open but most of that is based upon Pryor. He has to learn the offense and better understand the offense. He has the freakish ability to use his legs to make plays, he just needs to better harness that ability. We will see how much Pryor has improved when OSU goes into Happy Valley in a few weeks.

Great comparison to early Smith days vs. his last two years as QB, been thinking the same thing. Bob Hunter has a nice rant in the Dispatch about knee jerk reactions of Buckeyes fans. Pryor just overwhelmed folks in HS because of his freakish skill set for a QB his size, sort of like youth football. Hard to believe that OSU fans have unrealistic expectations for Pryor. :rolleyes: Of course, for awhile you get to here "I don't see what the big deal is about Pryor. He didn't impress me."

*BaseClogger*
09-15-2009, 10:33 AM
5 years from now this poll will be the exact opposite. Just because some of us see the writing on the wall doesn't mean we are not Buckeye fans.

What's your evidence, last weekend's game? Surely not the 2008 season, or the 2007 season, or the 2006 season...

bucksfan2
09-15-2009, 10:35 AM
5 years from now this poll will be the exact opposite. Just because some of us see the writing on the wall doesn't mean we are not Buckeye fans.

84-20. 5 Big 10 titles, 4 in a row, 3-3 BCS bowl appearances, 1 National Championship, 1 Heisman Trophy Winner. I guess the writing is on the wall. The expectation levels in Columbus have reached astronomical levels.

Unassisted
09-15-2009, 11:00 AM
This game is as simple as Tressel not running a QB sneak ever. Getting the ball at the 2 with 4 downs to put it in and you never have Pryor just dive for it. Barkley was able to sneak it about 4 times Saturday night yet for some reason Ohio State doesnt have that play?
I agree that 3rd and short outcomes were key and lopsided in USC's favor, but for different reasons. USC's D-line was capable of stopping the sneak. Ohio State's D-line apparently wasn't.

BuckeyeRed27
09-15-2009, 11:10 AM
I agree that 3rd and short outcomes were key and lopsided in USC's favor, but for different reasons. USC's D-line was capable of stopping the sneak. Ohio State's D-line apparently wasn't.

OSU never ran a sneak that I recall.

Highlifeman21
09-15-2009, 11:26 AM
Seriously?

This game had more to do with Pryor playing poorly than Tressel's play calling. This game had more to do with Pryor throwing an ill advised INT that was taken back to the goal line, than it did with Tressel's play calling. This game had more to do with Pryor locking into Posey for the majority of the game, than Tressel's play calling.

This was one of the worst games I have seen Pryor play in an OSU uniform. Blame it all you want on Tressel, but it was a matter of poor execution on the QB's behalf. Oh yea, and USC has a pretty good OLine and Joe McKnight is pretty good.

Running it up the middle with Herron was predictable Tressel playcalling.

USC knew it was coming, and stopped it on something like 10 times in a row. Sure, Pryor being ineffective then lead to runs inside the tackles being ineffective, but would it kill Tressel to run his backs outside the tackles? Would it kill Tressel to draw up a better option or to not run it to the short side of the field? Would it kill Tressel to run a QB draw with that gazelle named Pryor?

One of my favorite drinking games is drink everytime Tressel has the Bucks run it up the middle between the tackles.

Caveat Emperor
09-15-2009, 12:34 PM
84-20. 5 Big 10 titles, 4 in a row, 3-3 BCS bowl appearances, 1 National Championship, 1 Heisman Trophy Winner. I guess the writing is on the wall. The expectation levels in Columbus have reached astronomical levels.

It's not that expectations have reached astronomical levels, it's that the warnings signs are sitting out there that the future for Tressel might not be so rosy.

The Big 10 won't stay has doormat forever -- already Michigan is rumbling like they're about to join the 21st century by running an up-tempo, speed based offense. When Paterno leaves Penn State, you can bet they'll be targeting a similar type of offense. The winds of change are starting to swirl, and I'm fairly certain Tressel is going to be left in the proverbial cloud of dust that he's so fond of.

FWIW, I agree entirely with what MWM and others have said -- Tressel gets everything right except his gameplanning. The difference I have with them is that I don't thnik there's any circumstance where Tressel changes. If that's the case, then eventually he's going to be overtaken.

I guess you can wait until that happens, or get out ahead of the curve while the program is on a high.

bucksfan
09-15-2009, 12:59 PM
Could the playcalling have been better? Likely yes. Could Pryor have played better? Yes? Could the inherent risks of playing "too conservative" against similarly talented teams be taken into account more, therefore hopefully resulting in some more aggressive risks being taken in certain situations? IMO yes (noting that with this approach there are risks of course too, with consequences that must be accepted).

Fire Tressel? Unreal. I understand it's the rage to be utterly unsatisfied unless your team goes undefeated every year while scheduling only teams in the top 20 along the way. Fact is that just cannot happen on a regular basis for anyone. Challenging the playcalling is a natural thing to do after any game in which the outcome is disappointing. But I cannot for the life of me come up with even a smidgen of a reason to fire Tressel, by most every account a good man and strong leader who is very successful at his job.

Unassisted
09-15-2009, 02:13 PM
OSU never ran a sneak that I recall.Considering how unproductive the RB runs up the middle were, there's no reason to expect it would have worked.

BTW, I think a more interesting poll question is this:

Should Ohio State give Jim Tressel the following ultimatum? Let another coach on your staff take charge of playcalling by next season or your contract will not be renewed.

top6
09-15-2009, 03:28 PM
Pryor was not put in a position where he could succeed. Early in the game, they were throwing a seam route that was working well. He was comfortable in the pocket, and stepping up and making some nice throws. Then what changed? Ohio State stopped throwing down field. They started going predictable with the power up the middle (which was stuffed repeatedly). The extent of the passing game was a 5-yard curl and a 3-yard out. That was it. There was one or two downfield throws in the second half and everything else was elementary. Pryor did not play well but he was handicapped so much he couldn't have done much.

I think it would downright frighten the minds of Buckeye fans to know what opposing coaches say about Ohio State's offense. Seriously... people are not quite comprehending how easy it is to defend. It's seriously predictable. We're talking about complete and total expectation of every play based on formation and key. The opponents know almost everything Ohio State is going to do and when. I know of a conversation with a very high-level coach that coached against Ohio State that called it "grade school level gameplanning" when referring to the OSU offensive scheme.

This past weekend, a couple of friends of mine that are coaches on the D-1 level in high school in Ohio watched the USC game. They had a "guessing game" of OSU's next offensive play to see who could get the most right. The winner guessed almost 45% of the plays correctly based on formation. Forty-five percent. This is a high school coach who does not have access to watching 40-60 hours a week of film.

Seriously man, Ohio State is at such a disadvantage against good teams. I don't think you realize how elementary this scheme is. Do you think it's a coincidence so many offensive performances have been dirt poor in big games in 7-8 years? It's not just Pryor. It's been Troy Smith. It's been Craig Krenzel. It's been the running game. If not for the sheer amazing talent of someone like Chris Wells, Ohio State would have had very little to show for its offense the past few seasons.

Pryor has a long way to go. No question. But his poor performance was equally on the shoulders of his coaches. USC knew everything they were going to do. Accordingly, he may as well have been playing against 15 players - because that's about what it's like when the other team knows what you're about to run.

I understand it's not easy. I understand it's not popular. I understand Tressel has a darn good resume. But it's time for people to accept this - he's woefully unqualified to be running the offense at this level. He really, really is costing his teams games against competition with similar or better talent.

This is a pretty good post, and the only one that presented something like a credible argument against Tressel.

But if this post is accurate - and Tressel really is such a bad game caller that the other side knows his plays in advance - then he must be pretty much the best recruiter in this history of college football, given that he still wins the vast majority of his games (not to mention Big 10 titles). So there's really no way you can let him go.

dabvu2498
09-15-2009, 03:37 PM
firejimtressel.com is up and running.

traderumor
09-15-2009, 03:48 PM
firejimtressel.com is up and running.

its taken that long? I'm surprised that it hasn't been around since 2003.

traderumor
09-15-2009, 03:50 PM
Why is it that when one's favorite team runs up the middle for nothing the coach needs fired for such unimaginative play calling, yet when the other coach calls such plays that get stuffed, its great defense?

Brutus
09-15-2009, 03:51 PM
84-20. 5 Big 10 titles, 4 in a row, 3-3 BCS bowl appearances, 1 National Championship, 1 Heisman Trophy Winner. I guess the writing is on the wall. The expectation levels in Columbus have reached astronomical levels.

And you know what? Tressel is 4-10 against Top 10 teams in his OSU career and 19-16 against the Top 25.

On the surface, you might think that's typical for a coach even at a program for Ohio State.

Well check out Urban Meyer and Pete Carroll by the same standards:

Meyer: 9-2 vs. Top 10 | 16-4 vs. Top 25
Carroll: 14-2 vs. Top 10 | 34-5 vs. Top 25
Tressel: 4-10 vs. Top 10 | 19-16 vs. Top 25

If Ohio State is supposedly an elite program, it should be treated like one. And right now, if we treat Tressel compared to the other 'elite' coaches, the resume is not as elite as it first sounds.

And for the record, I think Tressel is a great coach. But this record against the top competition just further illustrates the problematic issue - offensive philosophy. While his "play not to lose" offense is barely beating top 25 teams half the time, coaches like Meyer and Carroll are cleaning the clocks of top 25 competition 80 and 87% of the time, respectively.

If that does not give someone pause, I don't know what does.

bucksfan2
09-15-2009, 03:55 PM
Brutus just out of curiosity. What is Tressel's record against teams out side of the top 25? Teams that they should beat. I know Carrol has struggled avoiding a slip up over the past 5 or so years. Meyer will be an interesting case once Tebow graduates. If my memory serves me correct, with the exception of LSU and UF, OSU hasn't lost a game by more than one score in a long time. Maybe since Tressel's first season as a Buckeye.

Brutus
09-15-2009, 03:57 PM
This is a pretty good post, and the only one that presented something like a credible argument against Tressel.

But if this post is accurate - and Tressel really is such a bad game caller that the other side knows his plays in advance - then he must be pretty much the best recruiter in this history of college football, given that he still wins the vast majority of his games (not to mention Big 10 titles). So there's really no way you can let him go.

Oh I don't think he should be fired. I simply think the administration (Gene Smith) should demand he turn the reigns over to a bona fide offensive coordinator that, while perhaps answering to Jim Tressel, has freedom to run things as he deems necessary - even if it's within certain restraints or parameters of Tressel's basic philosophy.

GAC
09-15-2009, 04:01 PM
While his "play not to lose" offense is barely beating top 25 teams half the time, coaches like Meyer and Carroll are cleaning the clocks of top 25 competition 80 and 87% of the time, respectively.

Because they aren't playing to lose. ;)

But you nailed it pretty good.

MWM
09-15-2009, 04:02 PM
Brutus just out of curiosity. What is Tressel's record against teams out side of the top 25? Teams that they should beat. I know Carrol has struggled avoiding a slip up over the past 5 or so years. Meyer will be an interesting case once Tebow graduates. If my memory serves me correct, with the exception of LSU and UF, OSU hasn't lost a game by more than one score in a long time. Maybe since Tressel's first season as a Buckeye.

They won a national title with Chris Leak at QB, and he went undefeated at Utah including the BCS with Alex Smith (who was drafted first and has busted). Contrary to popular belief, it's the system, not Tebow, that makes that offense run. I don't think they'll miss much at all once he's gone as long he's got the type of talent he's had everywhere else while Tebow has been around.

Brutus
09-15-2009, 04:12 PM
Brutus just out of curiosity. What is Tressel's record against teams out side of the top 25? Teams that they should beat. I know Carrol has struggled avoiding a slip up over the past 5 or so years. Meyer will be an interesting case once Tebow graduates. If my memory serves me correct, with the exception of LSU and UF, OSU hasn't lost a game by more than one score in a long time. Maybe since Tressel's first season as a Buckeye.

"What is Tressel's record against teams out side of the top 25? Teams that they should beat."

It's great. No question. He does beat the teams he should beat. However, I think the polarization between his record against mediocre teams and good teams is further illustration of how bad the offense is. Against inferior talent, the "Tresselball" philosophy works. Bad teams eventually make mistakes. Ohio State capitalizes on those mistakes. Problem is, the reason you see barely a .500 record against top 25 teams is that these teams have similar, equal or better talent than Ohio State. These teams are not going to make as many mistakes. While Tressel's offenses sit around waiting for these teams to make mistakes, playing conservatively, they often don't. Instead, all it takes is the defense to finally crumble (as you saw against Penn State, Texas and USC all in the past year alone), and Ohio State loses the game.

"If my memory serves me correct, with the exception of LSU and UF, OSU hasn't lost a game by more than one score in a long time."

USC last year also was bad (35-3). I think this just goes to show how bad it's gotten - OSU fans are settling for moral victories.

Tresselball (sometimes) keeps Ohio State in the game. But it's not going to win big games, as by nature, big games have big talent (like Ohio State). You severely limit your chances of winning by telling your athletes to play not to lose. You recruit these bigtime athletes and big time playmakers to Ohio State, and then coach them to hold back and try not to make mistakes? You're essentially coaching fear and by nature, they play worse because they're afraid of making a mistake that costs them the game. Doesn't that seem counter-intuitive to anyone?

I may not care for the element of character in the USC program, but I admire the heck out of them. I respect the swagger they take into big games. They go in, despite having a true freshman quarterback, playing in front of a record crowd - who many fans in attendance say it was the best atmosphere they've ever been a part of, and they brashly go for it on 4th down and make plays. This "swagger" is "we are USC. We are not afraid of anything. We will put our players in a position to win. Even if we make mistakes, we'll make you have to stop us for 60 minutes." I admire that attitude. I don't mind the principals of Tresselball. I actually think it makes sense. But sooner or later, you have to put the game away. You need to have a killer instinct. Know when to take risks and try to score - don't hold back. Playing defensively on offense for 60 minutes is a recipe for disaster against good teams. I think there have been plenty of samples of this by now.

Do you know what Missouri's No. 1 stated goal before each season is? Score a touchdown on every single possession.

It seems so simplistic, yet, shouldn't that be every team's goal? But it's not Tressel's. Tressel does not value each individual play beyond not making a turnover. Instead, Tressel treats each possession as a way to maximize field position. That works for most of the game. It keeps you in a ballgame. But sooner or later, the USC killer instinct or Missouri's standards (for example) should kick in. Don't be willing to 'settle' for a field goal or turning over the field. Be hungry. If you have a chance to go up by 13 points. Try to do that. Don't be happy that your defense is playing lights out so you can simply coddle a 6-point lead.

Ohio State will continue to lose these games until they make minor changes in their approach. Oh sure, I think as long as OSU has top talent, they'll generally "be in the game." But those moral victories are for middle-of-the-road programs. Ohio State should always be "in the game." But within those games, OSU just needs to have a killer instinct. Develop an offensive swagger. Put the game on ice when you can. When Tressel does that, he will truly do some remarkable things - I'm serious, that's the only thing holding him back from really, really succeeding.

BuckeyeRed27
09-15-2009, 04:19 PM
Ohio State will continue to lose these games until they make minor changes in their approach. Oh sure, I think as long as OSU has top talent, they'll generally "be in the game." But those moral victories are for middle-of-the-road programs. Ohio State should always be "in the game." But within those games, OSU just needs to have a killer instinct. Develop an offensive swagger. Put the game on ice when you can. When Tressel does that, he will truly do some remarkable things - I'm serious, that's the only thing holding him back from really, really succeeding.



Bingo. That is the only problem I have with JT. Put the game on ice. If you give good teams a chance to win they are going to take it more often than not.

traderumor
09-15-2009, 05:07 PM
Do you know what Missouri's No. 1 stated goal before each season is? Score a touchdown on every single possession. That's not a goal, that is a philosophy, as well. It would be stupid to state as a goal since it is obviously impossible. You call it simplistic, I call it reductionist. I'm sure the playcalling is considering the same factors as OSU, like down, distance, field positon, time, gamescore. I'm sure Mizzou is looking to kill the clock when it is more important than another score, looking to position themselves for a game winning FG, etc. It may sound like a good slogan, but it is really not saying anything different than any other program is--the offense is going out there to score a TD, but it depends.

*BaseClogger*
09-15-2009, 05:07 PM
Ah yes, the Jim Tressel v. Pete Carroll argument. I'm not saying Tressel is the better coach but here's some food for thought:

2005-2009 Losses

Ohio State

2005 - #3 Texas, #18 Penn State
2006 - #2 Florida
2007 - Illinois, #2 LSU
2008 - #1 USC, #3 Penn State
2009 - #3 USC

USC

2005 - #2 Texas
2006 - Oregon State, UCLA
2007 - Oregon, Stanford
2008 - Oregon State
2009 -

*BaseClogger*
09-15-2009, 05:09 PM
firejimtressel.com is up and running.

http://firejimtressel.com/

That is freaking hilarious! :laugh:

cincrazy
09-15-2009, 05:38 PM
I think it's absurd to even consider firing him. This program is a juggernaut. If you believe the ESPN hype that it's an embarrassment, maybe you feel differently.

He needs to fix the offense, clearly. And by fix the offense, I mean let someone else take control.

But he is a perfect fit for this school and community, and the day he leaves not only will OSU "not win the big one," they won't even win the medium ones, such as Michigan State and Iowa.

We have it good right now. But when fans are born with silver spoons in their mouths, sometimes public perception is different from reality.

LoganBuck
09-15-2009, 10:17 PM
http://firejimtressel.com/

That is freaking hilarious! :laugh:

It was purchased at the same time as www.fireronzook.com was catching fire in Florida.

Captain Hook
09-15-2009, 10:34 PM
I think the coach might be a little frustrated.I'm not saying that this is all that terrible but Tressel was a little hard on the fans today during a live press conference.

"And I hate to be a part of making someone less happy. I mean, they're already miserable and to make them less happy, I feel bad."

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2009/09/15/0915osunews.html?sid=101

Heath
09-15-2009, 10:54 PM
I also think some highly exaggerate the whole "beat Michigan" thing. Sure, it's important but I don't think people would be happy if they go 9-3 every year while losing consistently to top non Big Ten teams as long as they beat Michigan. They say that now just to add fuel to the rivalry, but if push came to shove, I think most would rather be consistent contenders for national championships than just beating Michigan.

Hey, you stole that from the wikipedia entry for Earle Bruce. :D


5 years from now this poll will be the exact opposite. Just because some of us see the writing on the wall doesn't mean we are not Buckeye fans.

And, the above is why Woody Hayes thanked God for no interwebs in his day.



I think the coach might be a little frustrated.I'm not saying that this is all that terrible but Tressel was a little hard on the fans today during a live press conference.

"And I hate to be a part of making someone less happy. I mean, they're already miserable and to make them less happy, I feel bad."

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2009/09/15/0915osunews.html?sid=101

Glad to see Tressel has a dark sense of humor.

He's a nice man, heck of a recruiter, and a good football fundamental teacher. His offense and play calling are questionable. However, my guess is that he'll notice it sooner rather than later.

IMO, he can coach OSU as long as he wants. He's been able to unify a state.

TeamSelig
09-15-2009, 10:59 PM
He needs canned. He is the college football version of Jerry Sloan. Sure, lets win a ton of games but none that actually matter.

MWM
09-15-2009, 11:05 PM
Jeez, if Jim Tressel turns out to be the coach Jerry Sloan is I will be eternally grateful. Jerry Sloan is a phenomenla basketball coach.

reds1869
09-16-2009, 07:22 AM
He needs canned. He is the college football version of Jerry Sloan. Sure, lets win a ton of games but none that actually matter.

The man is 84-20 at tOSU, owns five big ten titles (including last year) and a National Championship, and has the golden touch against your arch-rival. If that is bad coaching I will swap with you.

jimbo
09-16-2009, 10:56 AM
He needs canned. He is the college football version of Jerry Sloan. Sure, lets win a ton of games but none that actually matter.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/jimbodude/tressel.jpg

WVRed
09-16-2009, 11:47 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/jimbodude/tressel.jpg

Jerry Sloan is a bad comparison IMO because Tressel has done something that Sloan never did, and that was win a national championship.

I would say Tubby Smith or Mike Shanahan would be a better comparison. Yes, Tressel won a championship nine years ago, but what have you done for me lately?

Highlifeman21
09-16-2009, 11:56 AM
Why is it that when one's favorite team runs up the middle for nothing the coach needs fired for such unimaginative play calling, yet when the other coach calls such plays that get stuffed, its great defense?

With nothing to back this up, I would venture a guess that Tressel calls running plays up the middle near the head of the class for perennial Top 10 programs.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other big program coaches that run the ball up the middle with as much predictability and frequency as Tressel.

Chip R
09-16-2009, 11:57 AM
Looking at this question from a more objective point of view, the answer to this question lies in what are the expectatations you have of the program.

If you expect tOSU to be a national champion almost every season and do it with an offense that would make Steve Spurrier blush, Tressell's not your man.

However, if you expect them to be a sub-elite team while running a boring offense, he's your man.

jimbo
09-16-2009, 11:59 AM
Yes, Tressel won a championship nine years ago, but what have you done for me lately?

That's just an example of the "instant gratification" society we now live in. It seems these days that every coach, no matter the sport, has a lot shorter of a window than they did 10+ years ago. I dislike that type of thinking with a passion, but I guess I have to accept it for what it is.

I have my issues with Tressel's offense as much as the next guy does, but when considering the overall product that he puts on the field on a consistent basis, I think the idea of canning him is insane. People mention Tubby at UK, look what that firing got them the last two seasons.

Tressel does so many good things for the OSU football program to consider firing him because of a bad run against top 10 teams. As far as I'm concerned, unless he starts finishing in the middle of the Big 10 and can't make it into BCS bowl games, he has the job for as long as he likes. I really feel like that after the next two seasons, this thread will be about another extension.

durl
09-16-2009, 12:00 PM
I know this has been discussed to death, but I don't believe Tubby is a good comparison. Tubby's last 2 teams at UK finished 6th and 4th in the conference, with 9-7 records both years. The offensive style had become stale and boring. Players were getting into trouble and he was losing quality recruits. Things were not looking good.

Tressel doesn't seem to have that downward trend showing. Football is far different than basketball since 1 game can cost you a shot at the national championship. Therefore, that one game can stand out like a beacon. Even so, I just don't see a sharp downward trend with Tressel's teams.

Highlifeman21
09-16-2009, 12:24 PM
Buckeyes coach will keep calling plays (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4477250)


COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Ohio State coach Jim Tressel says he has no desire to give up calling plays and will not change his offensive philosophy in the wake of the Buckeyes' sixth consecutive loss to a top-10 team.


For the first time in his now-nine-year tenure in Columbus, Tressel is catching fire from all directions in the wake of Saturday night's 18-15 loss to No. 3 USC.

Letters to the sports editor of the local newspaper, bloggers, Web sites, columnists, radio talk shows and TV analysts have all criticized Tressel's conservative approach to the game and his handling of the team.

Tressel's offensive philosophy basically is built on playing for field position, avoiding turnovers at all cost and relying on defense and special teams to win the game.

"I'm not sure exactly what a wholesale change would entail. I mean, are we going to go to the Navy triple option? Probably not," Tressel said Tuesday. "Will we go conceptually to this or that? If you look at our teams from 2001 on, they haven't been exactly the same because, you know, you don't have the same people. But I don't know that we would make a wholesale [change]."

Tressel, who said he makes most of the play calls even though Jim Bollman has the title of offensive coordinator, disdained going for a touchdown in favor of an easy field goal on fourth-and-goal at the USC 1 early in the second quarter. He also favored punting on fourth-and-1 at the USC 45 in the third quarter.

With around 8 minutes left in the game and Ohio State gripping a 15-10 lead, the Buckeyes drove to a first down at the USC 35. After a run gained three yards, quarterback Terrelle Pryor threw an incompletion and then was sacked for a four-yard loss that meant kicker Aaron Pettrey would have a 53-yard attempt on fourth-and-11 at the USC 36. Tressel elected to punt again.

That punt led to the Trojans taking control for an impressive 86-yard drive that won the game.

"I'll always believe that you win tough ballgames by making sure that you're the group that makes less mistakes, wins that field-position battle, [and] wins the battle in the trenches statistically," Tressel said. "So, no, I philosophically wouldn't go against that."

The vitriol Tressel has faced after the game is unlike any he has encountered in his eight-plus years as Buckeyes coach. His first Ohio State team went 7-5 in 2001 but beat Michigan, earning him genius status with the Buckeyes' frequently fickle fans.

Since then, he led the Buckeyes to a surprising national championship in 2002 and has dominated the series with the archrival Wolverines, winning seven of eight meetings.

But landslide losses in the 2006 and 2007 national title games to Florida and LSU, and subsequent defeats in high-profile games to USC, Penn State, Texas and again to USC have caused the critics to come after the guy in the sweater vest.

With the 11th-ranked Buckeyes (1-1) preparing to play Toledo at Cleveland Browns Stadium on Saturday, the glow of that 2002 national championship game seems light years away.

Tressel said he has received critical e-mails, but said the fans' poison makes him feel sorry for them.

"When I read some of them I feel terrible for them because there's no way they're happy," he said. "They've got to be some of the most unhappy people in the world, and I feel bad because we just made them less happy, and I hate to be a part of making someone less happy. I mean, they're already miserable."

flyer85
09-16-2009, 12:41 PM
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other big program coaches that run the ball up the middle with as much predictability and frequency as Tressel.
and little success.

I have never been a fan of Tressel because his OSU teams have always struggled to run the ball when it really mattered (the 3 plays against Navy and after getting inside the USC 40 in the 4th quarter are great examples). And after punting to USC in the 4th the Trojans ran over the Buckeyes after getting past the 50. I love smashmouth football, the problem is that the Buckeyes under Sweater Vest haven't been that good at it (OL problems have been the main issue that has shown itself in a lack of ability to push the opponent off the ball or pass protect very well).

Is Tressel a good coach and a good guy?. Yes, his teams are disciplined and generally well prepared.

IMO, the issues with the current teams are the same ones that have been a problem during his entire tenure. With the current team his best bet is to spread the field(to spread out the defense) and allow Pryor to make plays with his arm or with his feet. To do that would mean giving up a lot of control and that is not going to happen.

traderumor
09-16-2009, 01:00 PM
With nothing to back this up, I would venture a guess that Tressel calls running plays up the middle near the head of the class for perennial Top 10 programs.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other big program coaches that run the ball up the middle with as much predictability and frequency as Tressel.

With just as much as you have to back it up, I doubt it. Since it is your presupposition and it drives you crazy, I would imagine that you simply have an increased awareness, making it seem like your event is happening more than elsewhere.

Spring~Fields
09-16-2009, 01:22 PM
Looking at this question from a more objective point of view, the answer to this question lies in what are the expectatations you have of the program.

If you expect tOSU to be a national champion almost every season and do it with an offense that would make Steve Spurrier blush, Tressell's not your man.

However, if you expect them to be a sub-elite team while running a boring offense, he's your man.

I know that this isn't exactly the way you meant. Though I think your post points out something about we Ohio State fans and maybe the media, if we expect Ohio State to be a national champion almost every year, we are being very unrealistic, maybe rediculous too.

Highlifeman21
09-16-2009, 01:49 PM
With just as much as you have to back it up, I doubt it. Since it is your presupposition and it drives you crazy, I would imagine that you simply have an increased awareness, making it seem like your event is happening more than elsewhere.

I'm well-documented on here as not even remotely being a Buckeyes fan.

So, it doesn't drive me crazy at all that Tressel costs the Buckeyes wins b/c of his crappy playcalling, in fact I usually enjoy it.

But, I have plenty of friends who are Buckeyes fans, and for them I wanted the Buckeyes to beat my new favorite drinking game, Matt Barkley, and USC b/c 1. It would have been great for tOSU's program, especially before a record setting crowd, and 2. the better tOSU is, the more it helps OH's economy for the 4th Quarter of 2009, and 3. tOSU needed to have an undefeated season to even remotely sniff the NC game in hopes to keep most likely Texas or Florida out of the NC.

Hell, now I want tOSU to lose to Toledo so when tOSU plays Team Rich Rod, you'll have the joke of "tOSU tried to get to Michigan, but they couldn't get thru Toledo"

I'd also like to think that I watch enough college football to keep up with offenses, their tendencies and what not, but I do concede that it's possible that Tressel isn't the most predictable coach @ a top program, but he's certainly gotta be up there...

kaldaniels
09-16-2009, 02:20 PM
Jerry Sloan is a bad comparison IMO because Tressel has done something that Sloan never did, and that was win a national championship.

I would say Tubby Smith or Mike Shanahan would be a better comparison. Yes, Tressel won a championship nine years ago, but what have you done for me lately?

I get your point, but that is factually incorrect. Lets keep this debate accurate.

kaldaniels
09-16-2009, 02:29 PM
Not set in stone, but just going off the top of my head. For every decade, here's what I'd like (realistically) out of OSU.

1 NC
3-4 Top 5 finishes
6-7 Top 10 finishes
Winning record over Michigan

Maybe I have low standards but give me that and I'm happy big-picture-wise.

11larkin11
09-16-2009, 02:34 PM
Hell, now I want tOSU to lose to Toledo so when tOSU plays Team Rich Rod, you'll have the joke of "tOSU tried to get to Michigan, but they couldn't get thru Toledo"



Hey now, thats my favorite joke to use on scUM fans last year!

Really, we are on the right track.

And I would rather win the Big Ten, beat Michigan, and lose to a Florida or LSU thank lose to a Oregon State, UCLA, or Stanford every year

cincrazy
09-16-2009, 03:00 PM
He needs canned. He is the college football version of Jerry Sloan. Sure, lets win a ton of games but none that actually matter.

I love your posts around this site, but that's an absurd statement and completely false.

WVRed
09-16-2009, 03:02 PM
I get your point, but that is factually incorrect. Lets keep this debate accurate.

Not an Ohio State fan, so I really don't care about accuracy. :)


That's just an example of the "instant gratification" society we now live in. It seems these days that every coach, no matter the sport, has a lot shorter of a window than they did 10+ years ago. I dislike that type of thinking with a passion, but I guess I have to accept it for what it is.

I have my issues with Tressel's offense as much as the next guy does, but when considering the overall product that he puts on the field on a consistent basis, I think the idea of canning him is insane. People mention Tubby at UK, look what that firing got them the last two seasons.

Tressel does so many good things for the OSU football program to consider firing him because of a bad run against top 10 teams. As far as I'm concerned, unless he starts finishing in the middle of the Big 10 and can't make it into BCS bowl games, he has the job for as long as he likes. I really feel like that after the next two seasons, this thread will be about another extension.

The job search at Kentucky was botched from the beginning (Tubby resigned, he was not fired). Billy Gillispie never should have been hired for what the expectations of the job entailed. Mitch Barnhardt cast all of his eggs in the direction of Billy Donovan and was left out to dry and settled for a young coach with potential, but lacked the communication skills necessary for the job.

As for Tressel, there will always be naysayers who want him out because of the style of play and lack of success against top teams, but I believe he could end up being the coach at Ohio State for as long as he wants it. I don't see him taking the Bengals or Browns jobs if they ever come open. That being said though, the longer he is at Ohio State, the harder it is going to be to make a change when the time is right for it. Ask Penn State or Florida State fans.

Spring~Fields
09-16-2009, 03:02 PM
Hell, now I want tOSU to lose to Toledo so when tOSU plays Team Rich Rod, you'll have the joke of "tOSU tried to get to Michigan, but they couldn't get thru Toledo"



:bowrofl::bowrofl:

Only way that happens is if Dusty Baker made out the map to get there and is caught driving the bus. :)

cincrazy
09-16-2009, 03:03 PM
Jerry Sloan is a bad comparison IMO because Tressel has done something that Sloan never did, and that was win a national championship.

I would say Tubby Smith or Mike Shanahan would be a better comparison. Yes, Tressel won a championship nine years ago, but what have you done for me lately?

What has he done lately.... other than win the Big 10, beat Michigan, and finish in the top 10 pretty much every year?

Spring~Fields
09-16-2009, 03:04 PM
What has he done lately.... other than win the Big 10, beat Michigan, and finish in the top 10 pretty much every year?

I think they are just jealous. :D

Caveat Emperor
09-16-2009, 03:26 PM
What has he done lately.... other than win the Big 10, beat Michigan, and finish in the top 10 pretty much every year?

Since the NC game, he's 2-9 in games vs. Top-5 opponents.

Honest question -- is there a point where that number becomes unacceptable to OSU fans? If they lose to an undefeated Penn State (currently #5) later this year, it'll drop to 2-10. How many more big games does Tressel have to lose before OSU fans start questioning the status quo? If the number drops to 2-15 is that too much?

*BaseClogger*
09-16-2009, 03:33 PM
Since the NC game, he's 2-9 in games vs. Top-5 opponents.

Honest question -- is there a point where that number becomes unacceptable to OSU fans? If they lose to an undefeated Penn State (currently #5) later this year, it'll drop to 2-10. How many more big games does Tressel have to lose before OSU fans start questioning the status quo? If the number drops to 2-15 is that too much?

Let's say they lose to Penn State but still win the Big Ten, beat Michigan, and go to the Rose Bowl and get their ass kicked by USC again...

I'm happy. Nice season guys! :thumbup:

Hoosier Red
09-16-2009, 04:04 PM
Hey, I'm all for tOSU firing Tressel. IU can hire him any time.

Plus, the students already have a nice faux blue shirt with red tie to fit under the sweater vests.

cincrazy
09-16-2009, 05:45 PM
Since the NC game, he's 2-9 in games vs. Top-5 opponents.

Honest question -- is there a point where that number becomes unacceptable to OSU fans? If they lose to an undefeated Penn State (currently #5) later this year, it'll drop to 2-10. How many more big games does Tressel have to lose before OSU fans start questioning the status quo? If the number drops to 2-15 is that too much?

I understand your point.

But Bo Schembechler did not win ONE national championship during his tenure at Michigan. Not ONE! And the guy is a hero. Tressel wins one, dominates Michigan, and the first sign of turbulence, some people are ready to throw him overboard. It's just absurd.

The streak isn't good. And I'm not happy with it. But it's not going to continue.

Yachtzee
09-16-2009, 06:17 PM
How does Tressel's record compare to Woody's? Woody is just as likely to be the measuring stick for Tressel as anyone else.

GAC
09-16-2009, 06:33 PM
YEARS OVERALL VS MICHIGAN

Woody Hayes 1951-1978 205-61-10 16-11-1
Earle Bruce 1979-1987 81-26-1 5-4-0
John Cooper 1988-2000 111-43-4 2-10-1
Jim Tressel 2001-2008 83-19-0 7-1-0


Hayes was 4-4 in Rose Bowl appearances. Hayes didn't do too well during the 70s in Bowl games (2-6) (5-6 overall in his career).

Maybe Tressel needs to take up a practice of Hayes'?......

After losses or ties, Hayes would conduct locker room interviews in the nude. A journalist from his tenure noted, "He was an ugly guy so it would clear the locker room out pretty fast."

http://www.cleveland.com/osu/index.ssf/2009/02/leonard_downie_jr_regrettably.html

Spring~Fields
09-16-2009, 07:49 PM
Hey, I'm all for tOSU firing Tressel. IU can hire him any time.

Plus, the students already have a nice faux blue shirt with red tie to fit under the sweater vests.

Or he could leave Ohio State and take over at Penn St. after coach retires there. :eek:

HokieRed
09-16-2009, 08:53 PM
On the Michigan rivalry, Lloyd Carr's not there anymore. As an alumni of that school up north, I look forward to this year's meeting and all those in future as long as we have Rodriguez and the Bucks have Tressel. I think we'll do just fine.

improbus
09-16-2009, 09:26 PM
Tressel gets alot of credit for beating up on Michigan, but this hasn't been the strongest decade in Michigan football. The best team Tressel faced was the Henne/Hart team which retrospectively looks fairly overrated (as OSU was). Also, Tressel coached while Wisconsin slowly died, Northwestern became Northwestern again, and Penn State endured seasons of 3-9, 4-7, and 5-6. Obviously, Ohio State has had alot to do with that, but I would argue that the 1990's were the heyday for the Big Ten.

Chip R
09-16-2009, 09:31 PM
Or he could leave Ohio State and take over at Penn St. after coach retires there. :eek:

Like JoePa's ever going to retire.

Spring~Fields
09-16-2009, 09:57 PM
Like JoePa's ever going to retire.

That man is remarkable. His teams struggled for awhile, now they seem to be on the upswing again.

WVRed
09-16-2009, 10:03 PM
What has he done lately.... other than win the Big 10, beat Michigan, and finish in the top 10 pretty much every year?

And get embarrassed by the SEC on a national level in bowl games.


Tressel gets alot of credit for beating up on Michigan, but this hasn't been the strongest decade in Michigan football. The best team Tressel faced was the Henne/Hart team which retrospectively looks fairly overrated (as OSU was). Also, Tressel coached while Wisconsin slowly died, Northwestern became Northwestern again, and Penn State endured seasons of 3-9, 4-7, and 5-6. Obviously, Ohio State has had alot to do with that, but I would argue that the 1990's were the heyday for the Big Ten.

This.

Which leads to my next question, where would Ohio State factor if they played in the SEC or Big XII?

Spring~Fields
09-16-2009, 10:04 PM
On the Michigan rivalry, Lloyd Carr's not there anymore. As an alumni of that school up north, I look forward to this year's meeting and all those in future as long as we have Rodriguez and the Bucks have Tressel. I think we'll do just fine.

If Michigan continues to develop throughout the season, they might win that. It will be interesting to see how the two teams play out the season. I am happy that Michigan is looking better, the Big Ten needs solid teams I think, I would like to see them all improve. I think that playing opponents that really tax and challenge the other teams helps them all improve in the long run.

I don't think that soft schedules give a true picture to team evaluators on how well or not that they are really doing and that it can hurt teams.

cincrazy
09-16-2009, 10:30 PM
And get embarrassed by the SEC on a national level in bowl games.



This.

Which leads to my next question, where would Ohio State factor if they played in the SEC or Big XII?

They'd still be an elite program. End of discussion.

Spring~Fields
09-16-2009, 10:42 PM
Which leads to my next question, where would Ohio State factor if they played in the SEC or Big XII?

I think that would have an effect of improving Ohio State in the long run. I believe they would be compelled to adapt and grow from it. As long as the conference remained strong to push and pull one another within the conference to improve.

dabvu2498
09-16-2009, 10:44 PM
They'd still be an elite program. End of discussion. Why does that have to be end of discussion? I will say this: I strongly doubt they would've played in as many BCS bowl games as they have in the past few years.

dabvu2498
09-16-2009, 10:46 PM
I think that would have an effect of improving Ohio State in the long run. I believe they would be compelled to adapt and grow from it. As long as the conference remained strong to push and pull one another within the conference to improve. Agreed. Necessity would've been the mother of invention. I think.

HokieRed
09-16-2009, 11:04 PM
I think in the Big 12 they'd be just a half notch behind Okla. and Texas. In the SEC, they might be no better than middle of the pack.

Yachtzee
09-16-2009, 11:16 PM
Why does that have to be end of discussion? I will say this: I strongly doubt they would've played in as many BCS bowl games as they have in the past few years.

Isn't that just idle speculation? It's kind of like saying Player A wouldn't be a Hall of Famer if he'd played in this era. We don't really know how they would do because there are just too many variables involved. For one thing, you would have to assume that Tressel wouldn't change his approach to the game by shifting conferences.

Another thing you would have to assume is that the relative strength of the conferences would remain constant, rather than shift over time. IIRC the SEC and Big XII both saw their relative strengths a few decades ago when a number of programs were hit with NCAA sanctions. Many of the coaches that run the programs in those conferences are also notoriously mercenary and have had a tendency to jump ship if the right NFL team or rival throws enough money and perks their way. You don't think Urban Meyer or Les Miles would leave if someone flashed the right opportunity and amount of money their way?

Finally, you'd have to remove weather as a factor. Ohio gets colder a lot sooner than it does in the regions in which the SEC and much of the Big XII play. November in Ohio can be a cold, rainy, muddy and even snowy place. Not only would it force SEC players to deal with the weather, but it would also require SEC coaches to dial back on the speed in favor of maintaining ball control and field position. And with the SEC and Big XII schedules continuing past Thanksgiving, it would only increase the chances that some of these teams are going to play in bad Ohio weather late in the season. To me, it sounds like Tressel's philosophy is designed for winning games when the weather gets bad.

I think Tressel will be around for quite some time at Ohio State because 1) he's been successful there, more importantly 2) he knows and embraces the history and culture of the Buckeye program and appears to genuinely love Ohio State.

dabvu2498
09-16-2009, 11:33 PM
Any answer to wvred's question would be idle speculation, of course. But it's fun, so let's do it. I was basing my speculation on the two most obvious and important variables: talent and coaching. The SEC team that I would compare to Ohio St . over the last few years is Georgia. Lots of talent, in the hunt, but a bit flaky in big games and seemingly capable of more. And occaisionally losing to someone they shouldn't. But a step behind UF, LSU and now, Bama.

dabvu2498
09-16-2009, 11:38 PM
BTW, I have been to snow games in Lexington, Nashville and Knoxville. In fact, it was snowing for Vandy @ UK last year. For the SEC West though, you're right. Very few subfreezing games.

HokieRed
09-16-2009, 11:40 PM
Tennessee and Auburn will not stay down forever either.

dabvu2498
09-16-2009, 11:47 PM
Tennessee and Auburn will not stay down forever either. I hope you're wrong about that.

*BaseClogger*
09-17-2009, 12:01 AM
Tennessee and Auburn will not stay down forever either.

Florida and LSU will not stay up forever either...

Highlifeman21
09-17-2009, 12:14 AM
They'd still be an elite program. End of discussion.

tOSU would probably be able to tread water better in the Big 12 than the SEC, IMO.

The SEC seems way more athletic, and while tOSU has some athleticism, I don't feel they have a fully athletic team, which you need to be one of the top teams in the SEC.

TeamSelig
09-17-2009, 01:02 AM
I love your posts around this site, but that's an absurd statement and completely false.

Thanks. That was tongue in cheek though.

11larkin11
09-17-2009, 01:59 AM
I think in the Big 12 they'd be just a half notch behind Okla. and Texas. In the SEC, they might be no better than middle of the pack.

What has Oklahoma "done for me lately" besides lose to Oregon, West Virginia, BYU, Boise State, and get blown out in one NC game, lost two other NC games, as well as an 8-4 season, and NOT owning their archrival like OSU has.

Once again, I'd much rather lose to elite teams than get upset by a conference team every year. Illiois is the only in conference "upset" OSU has had in this "down streak". Oh yes, losing to Florida, LSU, Texas, and USC 2x is so bad, and yet USC losing to Oregon State 2x, Stanford, Oregon, UCLA isn't bad at all. Texas losing to Kansas State 2x, Texas A&M 2x, an "OVERRATED" OSU, Texas Tech is just okay. Almighty Florida slipping up to South Carolina, Ole Miss, unranked Auburn, unranked MICHIGAN, plus losses to lower ranked Auburn, lower ranked Georgia doesn't make them bad at all.

Once again, I'd rather lose to elite teams than subpar teams. Newsflash, you can't be perfect ever year!

Note: These are losses since '05

*BaseClogger*
09-17-2009, 02:36 AM
The SEC seems way more athletic, and while tOSU has some athleticism, I don't feel they have a fully athletic team, which you need to be one of the top teams in the SEC.

This is an urban legend. A myth. A tall tale of sorts, if you will...

redsfan1966
09-17-2009, 03:07 AM
Decided to listen to 1530HOMER on the way to the Reds game yesterday. The hyperventilating that Lance and his callers were doing about how UC has passed Ohio State as THE college football program in Ohio was embarrassing. Couldn't get thru. I would have loved to tell Lance to "Settle down, Sparky. UC is an up and coming program; but Ohio State is a national power. If Brian Kelly and Sweater Vest were going after a player, 9 times out of 10 the Vest closes the deal".

Lance also made the statement that anger towards Tressel was on the level of unrest shown during the end of John Cooper's tenure at Ohio State. Where in the world did he hear that? Yes, we are upset at the lack of wins against top 10 programs and the choke jobs in big games --- but I have heard nowhere near the rage and anger that was directed at Cooper. Do a little better research, McAllister...

bucksfan2
09-17-2009, 08:55 AM
I think in the Big 12 they'd be just a half notch behind Okla. and Texas. In the SEC, they might be no better than middle of the pack.

It sure would be nice to see UF, Alabama, Auburn, LSU, etc travel up to Columbus in late November or early December. It could make a huge difference. The only potential tough SEC game in a cold weather arena is UT. While Vandy and Kentucky can get cold weather and snow, it doesn't change the fact that they are still Vandy and Kentucky.

MWM
09-17-2009, 12:46 PM
Any answer to wvred's question would be idle speculation, of course. But it's fun, so let's do it. I was basing my speculation on the two most obvious and important variables: talent and coaching. The SEC team that I would compare to Ohio St . over the last few years is Georgia. Lots of talent, in the hunt, but a bit flaky in big games and seemingly capable of more. And occaisionally losing to someone they shouldn't. But a step behind UF, LSU and now, Bama.

That's my take as well. I think because of the strength at the top and the lack of many doormats, the tendency is to prop up the middle tier teams more than they should be for the SEC. OSU would be just below those two teams, IMO. But to think they're a middle of the pack as some have suggested is just not close to accurate, even for speculation.

I think they'd be just fine in the Big 12. They beat Texas, handed them a game that the was the worst "should have won" game I've ever seen from OSU, and lost in the final 30 seconds of the game against them the third time. I'd say they're more than capable of beating the best in the Big 12.

Caveat Emperor
09-17-2009, 12:54 PM
UC is an up and coming program; but Ohio State is a national power. If Brian Kelly and Sweater Vest were going after a player, 9 times out of 10 the Vest closes the deal".

Right now, you're probably right.

If things keep rolling for UC, though, the day is not far off where the Sweater Vest will start losing certain types of recruits (QBs, speed WRs, speed HBs, etc.) to coaches like Brian Kelly and Rich Rodriguez.

You'll have a tough time outrecruiting OSU and Jim Tressel because they are so big and so well known, but it's very concievable that teams will start to nibble away at the edges if the program doesn't start to move into the 21st century.

bucksfan2
09-17-2009, 01:41 PM
Right now, you're probably right.

If things keep rolling for UC, though, the day is not far off where the Sweater Vest will start losing certain types of recruits (QBs, speed WRs, speed HBs, etc.) to coaches like Brian Kelly and Rich Rodriguez.

You'll have a tough time outrecruiting OSU and Jim Tressel because they are so big and so well known, but it's very concievable that teams will start to nibble away at the edges if the program doesn't start to move into the 21st century.

I have heard that argument, and I think it is just wrong. While the spread and high scoring offense is a more sexy and exciting brand of football, Tressel has done one heck of a job at getting his WR's drafted and playing in the NFL. Since 2002, off the top of my head, here are the OSU WR who have been drafted, or have been given a shot in the NFL.

Michael Jenkins - 1st
Chris Gamble - 1st
Drew Carter - 5th
Santonio Holmes - 1st
Ted Ginn - 1st
Roy Hall - 5th
Anthony Gonzales - 1st
Brian Robiskie - 2nd
Brian Hartline - 4th

Tressel does a pretty damn good job of sending his skill position players to the NFL. Both Kelly and Rodriguez, at WVU, don't have that track record.

SeeinRed
09-17-2009, 04:17 PM
Both Kelly and Rodriguez, at WVU, don't have that track record.


Yet...

Both Kelly's and Rodriguez's offensive schemes showcase skill position players. I don't think anyone here will argue that Tressel hasn't had WR's drafted, but football is changing overall. Tressel won't continue to get all the recruits if they have better options. Tressel's track record was built while he was big man on campus. There is a school that just happens to be within a key recruiting area closing in fast. Nobody has said it has happened yet, just that it could and probably will. If you don't believe that, you are just in denial. OSU will still get big recruits, but we're just say some will go in other directions now that they have some more choices.

MWM
09-17-2009, 04:30 PM
If Kelly stays at UC longer term, I don't think it's a matter if, but how many recruits will choose UC over OSU. Now I don't think it will be a large number, but it could be enough to feel the sting a little. But that's all dependent on Kelly staying at UC long term, which I still don't think will happen.

travisgrimes
09-17-2009, 04:35 PM
Yes he should... plain and simple he cannot lead his team to a big win over a top 5 team because he outcoached every time. IF he is let go I would not be surprised to see Brian Kelly be the #1 choice for the job because of these reason: 1. Terrelle Pryor is the perfect QB for Kelly's offense, 2. He has shown he can recruit well in Ohio and especially in Cincinnati and 3. He has been a proven winner on many levels and has shown the ability to simply out coach the opposition and win games he shouldn't.

improbus
09-17-2009, 05:27 PM
If OSU joined the SEC, they would go 10-3 for a few years, but they would also start to get stronger due to the overall high level of competition. Instead of playing down to the Big 10, they would start to play up to the SEC.

cincrazy
09-17-2009, 05:31 PM
The Big 10 has only recent fallen off so far. This decade, Purdue, Wisconsin, Michigan State, and Iowa, among others, have all had great seasons, and beaten SEC, Big 12, and other conferences in bowl games. Have the last few OSU teams benefitted from playing in a weak conference? Unquestionably. But the teams before that, no way, no how.

Yachtzee
09-17-2009, 05:42 PM
I would hold off on crowning Kelly and Rodriquez as conquering heroes until they actually beat Ohio State on the field.

11larkin11
09-17-2009, 05:51 PM
Decided to listen to 1530HOMER on the way to the Reds game yesterday. The hyperventilating that Lance and his callers were doing about how UC has passed Ohio State as THE college football program in Ohio was embarrassing. Couldn't get thru. I would have loved to tell Lance to "Settle down, Sparky. UC is an up and coming program; but Ohio State is a national power. If Brian Kelly and Sweater Vest were going after a player, 9 times out of 10 the Vest closes the deal".

Lance also made the statement that anger towards Tressel was on the level of unrest shown during the end of John Cooper's tenure at Ohio State. Where in the world did he hear that? Yes, we are upset at the lack of wins against top 10 programs and the choke jobs in big games --- but I have heard nowhere near the rage and anger that was directed at Cooper. Do a little better research, McAllister...

I hate this phrase. We "choked" against Florida, yes. LSU? We were prepared to go to the Rose Bowl, but all the other teams, including almighty USC, choked and we were thrust in there, and we weren't supposed to win. We weren't supposed to beat USC either year, and we weren't supposed to be even close to Texas last year. We choked once.

Spring~Fields
09-17-2009, 05:55 PM
The Big 10 has only recent fallen off so far. This decade, Purdue, Wisconsin, Michigan State, and Iowa, among others, have all had great seasons, and beaten SEC, Big 12, and other conferences in bowl games. Have the last few OSU teams benefitted from playing in a weak conference? Unquestionably. But the teams before that, no way, no how.


I am looking at this from a different perspective. Yes, Ohio State or any team can reap benefits in the win loss column by playing weaker opponents. Then again it can work against them by not causing them to stretch, to grow, to improve to a higher level of excellence. Preparing and playing against better and tougher teams can cause an Ohio State to reap benefits in reaching a higher level of overall performance.

I canít prove or support it, but, I think having played the weaker schools, and the weaker Big Ten opponents might be part of the problem with them now.

They can be led to believe that their planning, preparations, coaching, etc is good and that they did well when defeating weaker opponents, but, then a tougher opponent exploits that error in assessment. Tougher competition should cause them to learn and to grow, where as the weaker opponents, well you get an A when you might only be a B-.

It is one thing to be a big fish in a little pond, it is a whole another thing to be a big fish in a big pond.

Highlifeman21
09-17-2009, 06:55 PM
This is an urban legend. A myth. A tall tale of sorts, if you will...

You think tOSU has enough athleticism to hack it in the SEC?

.... b/c I sure don't

MWM
09-17-2009, 07:10 PM
You think tOSU has enough athleticism to hack it in the SEC?

.... b/c I sure don't

Don't let playing style be confused with athleticism. OSU has plenty of athletes, but they're coached to play Big Ten style. The same talent with an Urban Meyer coaching would show plenty of athleticism.

Highlifeman21
09-17-2009, 08:28 PM
Don't let playing style be confused with athleticism. OSU has plenty of athletes, but they're coached to play Big Ten style. The same talent with an Urban Meyer coaching would show plenty of athleticism.

Excellent point, I hadn't factored playcalling or conference style of play as a suppressant of athleticism.

Captain Hook
09-17-2009, 08:52 PM
You think tOSU has enough athleticism to hack it in the SEC?

.... b/c I sure don't

When the NFL kicked off this past week OSU was behind only Miami in players on team rosters.Arguably the most athletic position in football is WR and the Bucks led all college teams with 9.So yeah I think they have plenty of athleticism.

Captain Hook
09-17-2009, 08:56 PM
When the NFL kicked off this past week OSU was behind only Miami in players on team rosters.Arguably the most athletic position in football is WR and the Bucks led all college teams with 9.So yeah I think they have plenty of athleticism.

Sorry guys but that was a list from 2007.The current list isn't much different.Here's a link.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-footballfactories031609&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

GAC
09-17-2009, 09:03 PM
Florida and LSU will not stay up forever either...

True. Look at what has happened to Miami and FSU. And the same has happened to some Big 10 programs like Michigan.

WVRed
09-17-2009, 10:13 PM
True. Look at what has happened to Miami and FSU. And the same has happened to some Big 10 programs like Michigan.

Miami never should have left the Big East for the ACC. The Big East isn't exactly a powerhouse in college football, but Miami has struggled to maintain success since leaving.

Michigan and Florida State are examples of what I think will ultimately happen with Ohio State under Tressel. Lloyd Carr and Bobby Bowden pretty much had the wiggle room to do whatever they wanted (or currently do) based on previous success. Once the rest of the Big Ten adapts and Ohio State gets left in the dust, which I believe in time will happen, Tressel will still stay on because of name recognition and following, the same way Bowden and Paterno still have jobs. When that happens, Ohio State will ultimately decline and will wait to make a coaching change, and by then it will be too late.

Hoosier Red
09-17-2009, 10:29 PM
I am looking at this from a different perspective. Yes, Ohio State or any team can reap benefits in the win loss column by playing weaker opponents. Then again it can work against them by not causing them to stretch, to grow, to improve to a higher level of excellence. Preparing and playing against better and tougher teams can cause an Ohio State to reap benefits in reaching a higher level of overall performance.

I canít prove or support it, but, I think having played the weaker schools, and the weaker Big Ten opponents might be part of the problem with them now.

They can be led to believe that their planning, preparations, coaching, etc is good and that they did well when defeating weaker opponents, but, then a tougher opponent exploits that error in assessment. Tougher competition should cause them to learn and to grow, where as the weaker opponents, well you get an A when you might only be a B-.

It is one thing to be a big fish in a little pond, it is a whole another thing to be a big fish in a big pond.

I think the "weaker" schedule is overstated to a point as well. tOSU hasn't had Indiana(clearly the weakest Big 11 school) on it's schedule the last two years.

Captain Hook
09-17-2009, 10:34 PM
Miami never should have left the Big East for the ACC. The Big East isn't exactly a powerhouse in college football, but Miami has struggled to maintain success since leaving.

Michigan and Florida State are examples of what I think will ultimately happen with Ohio State under Tressel. Lloyd Carr and Bobby Bowden pretty much had the wiggle room to do whatever they wanted (or currently do) based on previous success. Once the rest of the Big Ten adapts and Ohio State gets left in the dust, which I believe in time will happen, Tressel will still stay on because of name recognition and following, the same way Bowden and Paterno still have jobs. When that happens, Ohio State will ultimately decline and will wait to make a coaching change, and by then it will be too late.

I wouldn't be so sure about any of that.Especially since the other Big 10 teams aren't showing any signs of catching up.It's been a while now that the Bucks have had their way in conference and if other team haven't adapted by now what makes you think it's going to happen anytime soon?

bucksfan2
09-18-2009, 08:39 AM
Miami never should have left the Big East for the ACC. The Big East isn't exactly a powerhouse in college football, but Miami has struggled to maintain success since leaving.

Michigan and Florida State are examples of what I think will ultimately happen with Ohio State under Tressel. Lloyd Carr and Bobby Bowden pretty much had the wiggle room to do whatever they wanted (or currently do) based on previous success. Once the rest of the Big Ten adapts and Ohio State gets left in the dust, which I believe in time will happen, Tressel will still stay on because of name recognition and following, the same way Bowden and Paterno still have jobs. When that happens, Ohio State will ultimately decline and will wait to make a coaching change, and by then it will be too late.

Don't like the comparisons to Bowden. Bowden is a lifer at FSU, Tressel not so much. There have been rumors that Tressel will walk away from the game earlier than most people think.

Michigan could be an apt comparison, but lets not forget that in Carr's second to last year he had his team ranked 2nd and in his last season he defeated the defending national champs and heisman trophy winner in the bowl game. IIRC a game they were supposed to get blown out of.

What I think few people realize is that it takes a special, special team to to get to a national championship game. Everything has to go right in order to get there. You have to have the talent on both sides of the ball as well as avoid upsets by the likes of Stanford, UCLA, Oregon St, Texas Tech, etc. Tressel has gotten there 3 times and keeps the pipeline fresh with athletes.

WVRed
09-18-2009, 09:41 AM
Don't like the comparisons to Bowden. Bowden is a lifer at FSU, Tressel not so much. There have been rumors that Tressel will walk away from the game earlier than most people think.

Michigan could be an apt comparison, but lets not forget that in Carr's second to last year he had his team ranked 2nd and in his last season he defeated the defending national champs and heisman trophy winner in the bowl game. IIRC a game they were supposed to get blown out of.

What I think few people realize is that it takes a special, special team to to get to a national championship game. Everything has to go right in order to get there. You have to have the talent on both sides of the ball as well as avoid upsets by the likes of Stanford, UCLA, Oregon St, Texas Tech, etc. Tressel has gotten there 3 times and keeps the pipeline fresh with athletes.

But that "lifer" reputation was built because of previous success. That team is in major need of rejuvenation and it won't happen with Bowden patrolling the sidelines or even Jimbo Fisher.

Heath
09-18-2009, 05:38 PM
Arguably Bowden and Paterno developed each of their respective programs. Both seem to want to stick around.

Same with Bear Bryant. Woody Hayes took a job in 1951 that was considered a place that was a "graveyard for coaches".

Tressel will leave when he is good and ready. I feel sorry for the next coach.

cincrazy
09-18-2009, 05:48 PM
But that "lifer" reputation was built because of previous success. That team is in major need of rejuvenation and it won't happen with Bowden patrolling the sidelines or even Jimbo Fisher.

I agree with you about Florida State. But OSU is NOWHERE NEAR Florida State territory right now.

I really think this is the most pointless discussion ever. Jim Tressel has been INSANELY successful as the head coach at this university, and the only way his job should be called into question is if this team turns into last year's Michigan team or a huge scandal breaks out.

Highlifeman21
09-19-2009, 11:29 AM
I agree with you about Florida State. But OSU is NOWHERE NEAR Florida State territory right now.

I really think this is the most pointless discussion ever. Jim Tressel has been INSANELY successful as the head coach at this university, and the only way his job should be called into question is if this team turns into last year's Michigan team or a huge scandal breaks out.

I dunno, I thought Andy Geiger did a pretty good job protecting Tressel during the Maurice Clarett fiasco.

Athletic Director falls on the sword, saving the head football coach?

Can't beat that.

cincrazy
09-19-2009, 05:51 PM
I dunno, I thought Andy Geiger did a pretty good job protecting Tressel during the Maurice Clarett fiasco.

Athletic Director falls on the sword, saving the head football coach?

Can't beat that.

Haha, distorting facts is always a good way to make an argument ;).

Highlifeman21
09-19-2009, 05:55 PM
Haha, distorting facts is always a good way to make an argument ;).

Ok, then what do you consider the facts of Andy Geiger leaving tOSU and what happened with Maurice Clarett?

bucksfan2
09-19-2009, 06:02 PM
Ok, then what do you consider the facts of Andy Geiger leaving tOSU and what happened with Maurice Clarett?

I don't exactly remember the timeline but Geiger left around the same time Brit Kerwin, the OSU president, left. It could be similar to UC's AD leaving shrotly after Zimpher was hired. FWIW I thought Holbrook was just as bad as Zimpher.

cincrazy
09-19-2009, 06:40 PM
Ok, then what do you consider the facts of Andy Geiger leaving tOSU and what happened with Maurice Clarett?

I consider it Andy Geiger being done at OSU. Nothing more, nothing less. The Clarett thing wasn't that big of a deal, or else the NCAA would have hammered us.

Highlifeman21
09-19-2009, 07:46 PM
I don't exactly remember the timeline but Geiger left around the same time Brit Kerwin, the OSU president, left. It could be similar to UC's AD leaving shrotly after Zimpher was hired. FWIW I thought Holbrook was just as bad as Zimpher.

IMO, Holbrook was worse than Zimpher.

cincrazy
09-19-2009, 07:48 PM
IMO, Holbrook was worse than Zimpher.

Holbrook was an absolute train wreck, I agree with you there. And she talked crap after she left, which is pretty classy for a university president.

LoganBuck
09-19-2009, 09:57 PM
Ok, then what do you consider the facts of Andy Geiger leaving tOSU and what happened with Maurice Clarett?

Just my somewhat informed opinion here, but I think the Jim Obrien fiasco had a whole bunch more to do with him leaving. Jim Obrien, and Boban Savovic made such a mess that it was time for him to move on. He was 66 years old, at the time, and had held that post for 11 years, for the largest athletic department in the country.

The football stuff was insignificant in comparison. But you and I have had the discussion before.

D-Man
09-19-2009, 10:15 PM
Same guy -- who is also 2-9 v. top-5 opponents since 2002, and will be 7 years removed from his national title this coming January.

Tressel is also 7-9 against top 10 opponents during that time period (5-0 against #6-10). Nearly every college coach other than Carroll and Meyer would exchange their records against top 10 opponents for Tressel's 2003-2009 run.

Tressel is the Jamie Moyer of college football coaches--he is well-prepared for games, he stays within himself, and he doesn't make mistakes against lesser opponents. Tressel's style generally fits well with games that are played in Columbus, OH, in the fall when game conditions are unpredictable. His team play exceptionally well in tight games, in bad weather, and in games that you can predict the likely course of events.

My biggest gripes w/ Tressel is that he (1) appears unable and unwilling to adapt to unique circumstances in game situations and (2) is uncomfortable playing poker against top-ranked opponents. He laid an egg at the end of the first half against Florida when he was down by 2+ touchdowns. He plays for field goals early in big games, and that almost always costs him in the end. His offenses make terrible mistakes in the red zone --OSU outgained LSU in the 2008 title game but lost because of its red zone play. And his "style" doesn't work in big games unless he has All-American punters and kickers working for him (IMO, anyway), hence the 2-9 record against top 5 teams since Mike Nugent graduated.

Sorry that I'm nearly a week late on this thread. . . MWM's posts in this thread are gold, BTW.

Captain Hook
09-19-2009, 11:55 PM
Tressel is also 7-9 against top 10 opponents during that time period (5-0 against #6-10). Nearly every college coach other than Carroll and Meyer would exchange their records against top 10 opponents for Tressel's 2003-2009 run.

Tressel is the Jamie Moyer of college football coaches--he is well-prepared for games, he stays within himself, and he doesn't make mistakes against lesser opponents. Tressel's style generally fits well with games that are played in Columbus, OH, in the fall when game conditions are unpredictable. His team play exceptionally well in tight games, in bad weather, and in games that you can predict the likely course of events.

My biggest gripes w/ Tressel is that he (1) appears unable and unwilling to adapt to unique circumstances in game situations and (2) is uncomfortable playing poker against top-ranked opponents. He laid an egg at the end of the first half against Florida when he was down by 2+ touchdowns. He plays for field goals early in big games, and that almost always costs him in the end. His offenses make terrible mistakes in the red zone --OSU outgained LSU in the 2008 title game but lost because of its red zone play. And his "style" doesn't work in big games unless he has All-American punters and kickers working for him (IMO, anyway), hence the 2-9 record against top 5 teams since Mike Nugent graduated.

Sorry that I'm nearly a week late on this thread. . . MWM's posts in this thread are gold, BTW.

I don't think Tressel gets enough credit for this.Winning the one's you supposed to at OSU will get you 10 wins and a trip to a BCS bowl game every year.I wonder how happy USC fans are with there win over Ohio St. after loosing their first conference game to a 20 point underdog.These type of things almost never happen to Tressel.

Highlifeman21
09-20-2009, 12:33 AM
Just my somewhat informed opinion here, but I think the Jim Obrien fiasco had a whole bunch more to do with him leaving. Jim Obrien, and Boban Savovic made such a mess that it was time for him to move on. He was 66 years old, at the time, and had held that post for 11 years, for the largest athletic department in the country.

The football stuff was insignificant in comparison. But you and I have had the discussion before.

Ah yes, good 'ol Boban.

The best thing that happened b/c of that situation was Thad Matta now coaches the Buckeyes.

I do love me some Thad Matta.

improbus
09-20-2009, 09:10 AM
Tressel's coaching style leaves very little margin for error. The QB has to be an impeccable decision maker (ala Krenzel in 2002), their RB must be dominant between the tackles (ala Beanie/Clarrett), their defense must come up with big plays and turnovers, and their kicking game has to be NFL caliber. If any of those things don't happen, OSU struggles mightily against good teams. Most coaches can compensate for one or two of those things w/ screen passes, blitzing, etc... Jimmy Tressel sticks with his plan whether it is working or not.

vottofan4life
09-20-2009, 12:26 PM
you dont fire someone like tressel if you dont have another big name replacement waitin to take his place

WVRed
09-20-2009, 12:50 PM
you dont fire someone like tressel if you dont have another big name replacement waitin to take his place

Last I checked, Tressel was the coach at Youngstown State when he took over at Ohio State. Not exactly a big name at the D-1 level.

Boston Red
09-20-2009, 01:13 PM
As I Louisville fan who expects his team to be in the market for a coach this offseason, I heartily endorse the termination of Jim Tressell by a Ohio State University.

kaldaniels
09-20-2009, 01:48 PM
Last I checked, Tressel was the coach at Youngstown State when he took over at Ohio State. Not exactly a big name at the D-1 level.

You are referring to John Cooper's firing...apples and oranges.

bucksfan2
09-20-2009, 05:44 PM
Last I checked, Tressel was the coach at Youngstown State when he took over at Ohio State. Not exactly a big name at the D-1 level.

Tressel was perfectly content at YSU. IIRC the reason he never left YSU was because he never wanted to. He wanted to be like his father, a small school college football coach. When the Miami job came open he almost put his hat into the mix but decided against it. Other universities would have loved to have him, he just didn't want to.

WVRed
09-20-2009, 07:38 PM
You are referring to John Cooper's firing...apples and oranges.

Not necessarily. Ohio State may have been on the decline, but they are still an elite program regardless. The letterhead sells itself, just like Michigan, Notre Dame, or a lot of the SEC and Big XII jobs.

If OSU decided they have had enough of Tresselball, they could likely bring in a big name replacement who would be able to satisfy fans.

I'm obviously not connected to Ohio State and am not a fan, but who was in the running for the job when Tressel was hired?

Revering4Blue
09-20-2009, 07:43 PM
Everyone fires on Ohio State's Jim Tressel for not being able to win the big ones, so now is it time to fire on Pete Carroll for not winning the little games?


http://cfn.scout.com/2/900765.html

Something to think about.

kaldaniels
09-20-2009, 08:15 PM
Not necessarily. Ohio State may have been on the decline, but they are still an elite program regardless. The letterhead sells itself, just like Michigan, Notre Dame, or a lot of the SEC and Big XII jobs.

If OSU decided they have had enough of Tresselball, they could likely bring in a big name replacement who would be able to satisfy fans.

I'm obviously not connected to Ohio State and am not a fan, but who was in the running for the job when Tressel was hired?

The initial quote was "You don't fire someone like Tresell if....

It was not "Elite program OSU doesn't fire its head coach if....

There is a difference. Perhaps slight in your eyes, but there is a difference. If you offer up a rebuttal to the initial quote, "someone like Tressell", you are assuming John Cooper is like Tressel. Make that case if you like, but I would disagree as would most Buckeye fans.

cincrazy
09-20-2009, 08:39 PM
Not necessarily. Ohio State may have been on the decline, but they are still an elite program regardless. The letterhead sells itself, just like Michigan, Notre Dame, or a lot of the SEC and Big XII jobs.

If OSU decided they have had enough of Tresselball, they could likely bring in a big name replacement who would be able to satisfy fans.

I'm obviously not connected to Ohio State and am not a fan, but who was in the running for the job when Tressel was hired?

Only name I remember is Glen Mason.

And all of the people currently moaning about Tressel should take that into consideration. Nothing against Glen Mason, I'm sure he's a good man and he's a fine coach.

But I feel pretty comfortable in saying we wouldn't have been anywhere near the program that we are this decade.

Brutus
09-20-2009, 08:40 PM
Only name I remember is Glen Mason.

And all of the people currently moaning about Tressel should take that into consideration. Nothing against Glen Mason, I'm sure he's a good man and he's a fine coach.

But I feel pretty comfortable in saying we wouldn't have been anywhere near the program that we are this decade.

Mike Bellotti visited and was in the mix too.

MWM
09-20-2009, 08:46 PM
Everyone fires on Ohio State's Jim Tressel for not being able to win the big ones, so now is it time to fire on Pete Carroll for not winning the little games? .

That's the dilemma with college coaching. Carroll has turned that program into a talent factory. The talent he gets year in and year out is unparallelled. Fire him and the well is likely to dry up. I don't see how they could ever fire Carroll considering how mediocre the program was for years prior. But yes, they do lose games they should win, and win easily, every year. But you can't have one without the other.

It's no coincidence the struggles started once Norm Chow left. Carroll got the talent there and coached the defense well, but Norm Chow is why they won national titles. That offense has severely underachieved since Chow left. Carroll needs a Chow to run the offense.

Highlifeman21
09-20-2009, 09:08 PM
That's the dilemma with college coaching. Carroll has turned that program into a talent factory. The talent he gets year in and year out is unparallelled. Fire him and the well is likely to dry up. I don't see how they could ever fire Carroll considering how mediocre the program was for years prior. But yes, they do lose games they should win, and win easily, every year. But you can't have one without the other.

It's no coincidence the struggles started once Norm Chow left. Carroll got the talent there and coached the defense well, but Norm Chow is why they won national titles. That offense has severely underachieved since Chow left. Carroll needs a Chow to run the offense.

Steve Sarkisian was a downgrade from Norm Chow, but Sarkisian still ran/called USC's offense.

Tressel's never had an offensive coordinator, right?

cincrazy
09-20-2009, 09:23 PM
Mike Bellotti visited and was in the mix too.

Thanks, couldn't remember any other names. Bellotti would have been a good choice I think, although I still think Tressel was the best choice.

Brutus
09-20-2009, 09:29 PM
Thanks, couldn't remember any other names. Bellotti would have been a good choice I think, although I still think Tressel was the best choice.

I'll never, ever question the choice of Tressel. I think it was the best choice both then and now. My only complaint is that his refusal to hand off the coordinator and play-calling duties to a qualified candidate is the difference between being a good program and a great one.

improbus
09-20-2009, 09:41 PM
Tressel has certainly benefited from an Anti-Cooper backlash. Cooper visibly underachieved for years (albeit in a deeper, and significantly tougher Big Ten), and Tressel has dominated the league. However, Tressel shouldn't get credit just because he doesn't have the same flaws that Cooper did. Instead, look at it this way. OSU should be a top 5 program year in and year out. They have the biggest athletic department in the country, world class facilities, and they are the only major football program in one of the top high school football states in the country (w/ all apologies to UC). If you can't dominate at OSU, you are doing something wrong.

kaldaniels
09-20-2009, 11:06 PM
Tressel has certainly benefited from an Anti-Cooper backlash. Cooper visibly underachieved for years (albeit in a deeper, and significantly tougher Big Ten), and Tressel has dominated the league. However, Tressel shouldn't get credit just because he doesn't have the same flaws that Cooper did. Instead, look at it this way. OSU should be a top 5 program year in and year out. They have the biggest athletic department in the country, world class facilities, and they are the only major football program in one of the top high school football states in the country (w/ all apologies to UC). If you can't dominate at OSU, you are doing something wrong.

Ok...simple question. Out of 10 years, how many years should OSU end up in the top 5 in order for the head coach to stay employed.

Roy Tucker
09-21-2009, 08:34 AM
I think people think that the OSU football program is just a push-button kind of thing where its all set up for success. I don't think that's true. I think the *potential* is there, but its a difficult thing to actually accomplish. Someone had to build up the program into the mega-program it is now and that guy is Tressel.

I'll take him over any other coach tOSU has had in my lifetime. Sure he does a few things wrong but he does the vast majority of things right. Plus he bleeds Ohio and plays the tradition of OSU football up to the hilt which scores him major points. I think he has the job for as long as he wants it.

cincrazy
09-21-2009, 01:51 PM
Tressel has certainly benefited from an Anti-Cooper backlash. Cooper visibly underachieved for years (albeit in a deeper, and significantly tougher Big Ten), and Tressel has dominated the league. However, Tressel shouldn't get credit just because he doesn't have the same flaws that Cooper did. Instead, look at it this way. OSU should be a top 5 program year in and year out. They have the biggest athletic department in the country, world class facilities, and they are the only major football program in one of the top high school football states in the country (w/ all apologies to UC). If you can't dominate at OSU, you are doing something wrong.

Those kind of expecations are why great coaches like Tressel inevitably end up "on the hot seat."

It's ridiculous to expect to be in the top 5 every year.

Chip R
09-21-2009, 02:15 PM
I think people think that the OSU football program is just a push-button kind of thing where its all set up for success.


Actually, I think it is but it depends on your definition of success. If your definition of success is finishing over .500, going to a nice bowl game, beating Michigan every other year on the average, winning the Big 10 every so often and possibly being in the hunt for a BCS championship every so often, then only a complete idiot could mess that up. But if your definition of success is loftier than that, then it's not so easy.

jimbo
09-21-2009, 02:52 PM
Actually, I think it is but it depends on your definition of success. If your definition of success is finishing over .500, going to a nice bowl game, beating Michigan every other year on the average, winning the Big 10 every so often and possibly being in the hunt for a BCS championship every so often, then only a complete idiot could mess that up. But if your definition of success is loftier than that, then it's not so easy.

But by your definition of a "loftier" success, Tressel has done just that.

Tressel has taken the Buckeyes to a BCS bowl 6 out of the last 7 seasons. I think it's safe to say that a BCS bowl is above being a "nice bowl game."

He beats Michigan pretty much every year.

He finishes well over .500 pretty much every year.

Big 10 champs, or co-champs, four straight seasons.

They are pretty much always in the discussion for a potential title game contender at the beginning of every season anymore.

Yes, he's had a bad run in the last three bowl games, but it'll happen to every college program from time to time. Doesn't mean it'll last forever or that the coach needs fired. If he starts to fail in reaching some of the above criteria, then a change might be a valid option, but until then Tressel should keep his job for as long as he wants it. And I think most reasonable Buckeye fans feel the same.

cincrazy
09-21-2009, 02:57 PM
But by your definition of a "loftier" success, Tressel has done just that.

Tressel has taken the Buckeyes to a BCS bowl 6 out of the last 7 seasons. I think it's safe to say that a BCS bowl is above being a "nice bowl game."

He beats Michigan pretty much every year.

He finishes well over .500 pretty much every year.

Big 10 champs, or co-champs, four straight seasons.

They are pretty much always in the discussion for a potential title game contender at the beginning of every season anymore.

Yes, he's had a bad run in the last three bowl games, but it'll happen to every college program from time to time. Doesn't mean it'll last forever or that the coach needs fired. If he starts to fail in reaching some of the above criteria, then a change might be a valid option, but until then Tressel should keep his job for as long as he wants it. And I think most reasonable Buckeye fans feel the same.

Oxymoron ;).

Chip R
09-21-2009, 02:59 PM
But by your definition of a "loftier" success, Tressel has done just that.

I'm not saying he hasn't. But others feel that since he isn't racking up BCS championship after BCS champinship and beating top 10 teams with regularity, he's a failure.

Roy Tucker
09-21-2009, 04:30 PM
I'm not saying he hasn't. But others feel that since he isn't racking up BCS championship after BCS champinship and beating top 10 teams with regularity, he's a failure.

Go BuCkZ!!!

;)

LoganBuck
09-21-2009, 04:42 PM
I'm not saying he hasn't. But others feel that since he isn't racking up BCS championship after BCS champinship and beating top 10 teams with regularity, he's a failure.

This is what makes me want to yell shut up at so many other fans. (Not you Chip!). Many teams have risen and fallen, and risen again since the BCS came into being. Some Buckeye fans need to look around. Only two schools with multiple championships (3 if you count USC) exist LSU, and Florida. Ohio State, USC, Miami, Florida State, and Oklahoma each have one win and at least one loss in BCS National Championship games (USC and Miami one, Ohio State and Florida State two, and Oklahoma 3). Ohio State is always in the hunt, and as far as I am concerned the only embarrassing loss was to Florida with that distracted team of award winners. Ohio State spent too much time on the banquet circuit that year and it showed. The next year was supposed to be a rebuilding year, and the system forced them in, against LSU.

Last year USC completely outclassed the group that Ohio State sent out. USC should have won the National Championship, and they would have beaten Florida, if Pete Carroll had kept his team focused.

I don't see much shame in losing to Texas last year, and USC this year. Yes they should have won those games, but to act like Ohio State is some program on the retreat is foolish. If you follow recruiting, you know what I am talking about. Tressel is working on his third straight strong recruiting class, and next year's is already taking shape as well. The young players floating around on Ohio State's roster are the some of the most decorated in the country.

If you watched this last week against Toledo, Tressel finally was able to let some of the pups do the biting. They looked pretty good.

improbus
09-21-2009, 09:28 PM
Ok...simple question. Out of 10 years, how many years should OSU end up in the top 5 in order for the head coach to stay employed.
Well, that is kind of a loaded question. OSU's rankings have been artificially inflated by a pathetic Big 10 conference in the last 5 years. OSU has beaten exactly 6 teams in that ended the season ranked, and only 1 that ended it ranked higher than 10.
2008 -
USC #3 (L)
Michigan State #24 (W)
Penn State #8 (L)
2007
Wisconsin #24 (W)
Illinois #20 (L)
Michigan #18 (W)
2006
Texas #13 (W)
Penn State #24 (W)
Michigan #8 (W)
2005
No ranked conference opponents
Penn State #3 (L)
Texas #1 (L)
You can pencil in 10 wins for OSU every year based on a pathetic Big 10, not necessarily based on Tressel's greatness. Now, this is not an indictment of Tressel per se, but I wouldn't use Tressel's Big Ten record as some sort of proof of his true coaching ability. Cooper's teams from 95-98 would have had equal if not better records than the 05-08 Tressel teams during the same stretch.

kaldaniels
09-21-2009, 10:19 PM
Well, that is kind of a loaded question. OSU's rankings have been artificially inflated by a pathetic Big 10 conference in the last 5 years. OSU has beaten exactly 6 teams in that ended the season ranked, and only 1 that ended it ranked higher than 10.
2008 -
USC #3 (L)
Michigan State #24 (W)
Penn State #8 (L)
2007
Wisconsin #24 (W)
Illinois #20 (L)
Michigan #18 (W)
2006
Texas #13 (W)
Penn State #24 (W)
Michigan #8 (W)
2005
No ranked conference opponents
Penn State #3 (L)
Texas #1 (L)
You can pencil in 10 wins for OSU every year based on a pathetic Big 10, not necessarily based on Tressel's greatness. Now, this is not an indictment of Tressel per se, but I wouldn't use Tressel's Big Ten record as some sort of proof of his true coaching ability. Cooper's teams from 95-98 would have had equal if not better records than the 05-08 Tressel teams during the same stretch.

I can tell you right now your post is forgetting beating ND in the Fiesta Bowl.

Edit - You may have forgotten to include the phrase "regular season" in your post.

cincrazy
09-21-2009, 10:46 PM
Well, that is kind of a loaded question. OSU's rankings have been artificially inflated by a pathetic Big 10 conference in the last 5 years. OSU has beaten exactly 6 teams in that ended the season ranked, and only 1 that ended it ranked higher than 10.
2008 -
USC #3 (L)
Michigan State #24 (W)
Penn State #8 (L)
2007
Wisconsin #24 (W)
Illinois #20 (L)
Michigan #18 (W)
2006
Texas #13 (W)
Penn State #24 (W)
Michigan #8 (W)
2005
No ranked conference opponents
Penn State #3 (L)
Texas #1 (L)
You can pencil in 10 wins for OSU every year based on a pathetic Big 10, not necessarily based on Tressel's greatness. Now, this is not an indictment of Tressel per se, but I wouldn't use Tressel's Big Ten record as some sort of proof of his true coaching ability. Cooper's teams from 95-98 would have had equal if not better records than the 05-08 Tressel teams during the same stretch.

What exactly are we supposed to do about playing in a lousy conference? So Tressel's 10 win seasons shouldn't count because he doesn't schedule Oklahoma, Texas, USC, and Florida in the non-conference?

MWM
09-22-2009, 12:54 AM
I'm not saying he hasn't. But others feel that since he isn't racking up BCS championship after BCS champinship and beating top 10 teams with regularity, he's a failure.

Jeez, Chip. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT. I think what some folks are saying is that the team would be better off with someone else running the offense while Tressel focuses solely on the stuff he's so good at. No one believes he's terrible, that's just hyperbole talking. One of the characteristics of all great leaders is knowing their own limitations and not allowing those limitations stand in the way of something greater. Tressel is a great head coach, pretty bad offensive coordinator. If you disagree with that, feel free to express as much.

Chip R
09-22-2009, 12:58 AM
Jeez, Chip. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT. I think what some folks are saying is that the team would be better off with someone else running the offense while Tressel focuses solely on the stuff he's so good at. No one believes he's terrible, that's just hyperbole talking. One of the characteristics of all great leaders is knowing their own limitations and not allowing those limitations stand in the way of something greater. Tressel is a great head coach, pretty bad offensive coordinator. If you disagree with that, feel free to express as much.

Lighten up, Francis. I didn't necessarily say it was people on this message board who feel that way.

kaldaniels
09-22-2009, 01:06 AM
Its late so this is gonna try to be short...

Making it to the 2008 NC and losing severely hurt the repuation of the Buckeyes. Fact is, that team had no business being close to that game, but due to the wacky season and frankly a solidly coached season by JT (just about every national contender had 2 losses) OSU got there, and got beat by a better LSU team. However, that team was based on talent more Rose Bowl or even Outback bowl deserving. Unfortunately that game helped compound the reputation of the Buckeyes of being overrated.

If instead they'd made it to say the Outback Bowl or whatever and beat Tennessee, many in the fanbase would have written the 07 season off as a nice rebuilding year. Instead, that team in my mind overachived and backed into the title game, for which they are now rewarded with claims of being overrated (and being poorly coached).

Sure there is reason for the fanbase to be a bit peeved at this moment, but not enough reason at all to call for Tressel's head.

kaldaniels
09-22-2009, 01:25 AM
Jeez, Chip. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT. I think what some folks are saying is that the team would be better off with someone else running the offense while Tressel focuses solely on the stuff he's so good at. No one believes he's terrible, that's just hyperbole talking. One of the characteristics of all great leaders is knowing their own limitations and not allowing those limitations stand in the way of something greater. Tressel is a great head coach, pretty bad offensive coordinator. If you disagree with that, feel free to express as much.

Your point about needing an OC is well taken and agreed with. However I wouldn't give Chip too hard a time...there are 15 votes to fire Tressel. I imagine those were the ones he was referring too.

jimbo
09-22-2009, 01:49 AM
Your point about needing an OC is well taken and agreed with. However I wouldn't give Chip too hard a time...there are 15 votes to fire Tressel. I imagine those were the ones he was referring too.

I would venture to say that a portion of those 15 votes are not even Buckeye fans. From my own experience, most of the excessive criticism of Tressel comes from Buckeye "haters."

Chip R
09-22-2009, 09:48 AM
I would venture to say that a portion of those 15 votes are not even Buckeye fans. From my own experience, most of the excessive criticism of Tressel comes from Buckeye "haters."


Of course, some of those "no" votes may be that they don't want him fired at the end of the season; they want him fired now. ;)

WVRed
09-22-2009, 09:55 AM
Jeez, Chip. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT. I think what some folks are saying is that the team would be better off with someone else running the offense while Tressel focuses solely on the stuff he's so good at. No one believes he's terrible, that's just hyperbole talking. One of the characteristics of all great leaders is knowing their own limitations and not allowing those limitations stand in the way of something greater. Tressel is a great head coach, pretty bad offensive coordinator. If you disagree with that, feel free to express as much.

I know this has been compared pretty blatantly in this thread, but I can't help but use the Tubby Smith analogy.

Tubby was not willing to change any of his assistant coaches and bring new life into the program. Some of these assistants would even have ties to top recruits. That's how Michael Beasley ended up at Kansas State.

Tubby was loyal to a fault, but if the man had your back, then he had your back. In a way it was stubbornness to make a change, and I see that with Tressel giving up calling the offense.

My question is this, if Ohio State continues to deteriorate offensively and Tressel continues to take the Mike Brown approach in admitting nothing is wrong, how much is going to be too much?

WVRed
09-22-2009, 09:56 AM
I would venture to say that a portion of those 15 votes are not even Buckeye fans. From my own experience, most of the excessive criticism of Tressel comes from Buckeye "haters."

For the record, I voted that OSU should keep Tressel, but I can also understand why there are those who want him out.

Doesn't mean that some of the 15 don't see the writing on the wall either.

jimbo
09-22-2009, 11:15 AM
For the record, I voted that OSU should keep Tressel, but I can also understand why there are those who want him out.

Doesn't mean that some of the 15 don't see the writing on the wall either.

Maybe, just maybe, Tressel actually knows what he's doing. Maybe there is a reason for his madness . Look, I've been as frustrated as anyone about his offense, but the man has won a national championship using his philosophy so it does work. Maybe he realizes from watching Pryor in practice everyday, that he still has a long way to go and he is playing conservatively on offense to minimize mistakes. Once Pryor gets more and more comfortable, he'll open up the offense. I don't remember him being very conservative when Troy Smith was the QB.

I think expectations for some are just too high. You're just not going to see the dynasties in college sports like you used to. I think in today's competitive environment, Tressel has done quite well in maintaining a consistently successful program. Let the man do his job. There is a reason why he is there and we are here.

bucksfan2
09-22-2009, 11:36 AM
Maybe, just maybe, Tressel actually knows what he's doing. Maybe there is a reason for his madness . Look, I've been as frustrated as anyone about his offense, but the man has won a national championship using his philosophy so it does work. Maybe he realizes from watching Pryor in practice everyday, that he still has a long way to go and he is playing conservatively on offense to minimize mistakes. Once Pryor gets more and more comfortable, he'll open up the offense. I don't remember him being very conservative when Troy Smith was the QB.

I think expectations for some are just too high. You're just not going to see the dynasties in college sports like you used to. I think in today's competitive environment, Tressel has done quite well in maintaining a consistently successful program. Let the man do his job. There is a reason why he is there and we are here.

You hit on something that is being overlooked. After watching the Toledo game, in which Tressel opened the game up more, I still feel that Pryor isn't there yet. Pryor had two picks, and it could have been at least another one because of his poor throws. He hasn't yet grasped the differences between HS and college. It is a work in progress and he has to learn that he can't rely on his arm to force throws where they can't go. He has to learn to scan the entire field instead of locking onto one WR. Maybe, just maybe, Tressel didn't open up the offense against USC because Pryor wasn't ready.

MWM
09-22-2009, 12:25 PM
There's a difference between being "conservative" and being predictable. You can be conservative without a straight run up the middle every first down. There were even plays when I sat and said they're going to try to run a QB draw here. I've said before that I don't know that calling it conservative is really an accurate reflection of Tressel's challenges. I think it's more a lack of creativity, or even better a lack of flexibility when his game plan isn't effective. THAT is the mark of a good O-coordinator, someone who can change things up when it's not working. Someone who can be conservative without being predictable.

As for Troy Smith, he had Ted Ginn, Anthony Gonzalez, Beanie Wells, Antonio Pittman, etc... The reason that offense was so good was because they had so much talent no one could stop them. And look what happened in the one game they were slowed down against Florida. He had no answer. Again, great head coach, not so good offensive coordinator. He's had one really good offense in 9 years.

improbus
09-22-2009, 07:40 PM
What exactly are we supposed to do about playing in a lousy conference? So Tressel's 10 win seasons shouldn't count because he doesn't schedule Oklahoma, Texas, USC, and Florida in the non-conference?
It is not OSU's fault that Wisconsin, Michigan, and Iowa have been average at best in the last few years. But, that also mean that it is more difficult to gauge just how good OSU really is. If you were to categorize them, would you say that they are closer to Florida or Georgia? Based on their body of work, I think that they are more like Georgia than Florida but because of their schedule they get the opportunity to play in bigger bowl games against bigger opponents. So, I guess that the question is: Are OSU fans willing to be Georgia?

Brutus
09-22-2009, 07:45 PM
You hit on something that is being overlooked. After watching the Toledo game, in which Tressel opened the game up more, I still feel that Pryor isn't there yet. Pryor had two picks, and it could have been at least another one because of his poor throws. He hasn't yet grasped the differences between HS and college. It is a work in progress and he has to learn that he can't rely on his arm to force throws where they can't go. He has to learn to scan the entire field instead of locking onto one WR. Maybe, just maybe, Tressel didn't open up the offense against USC because Pryor wasn't ready.

It's a logical argument, but precedent suggests otherwise. Ohio State, as MWM pointed out, is simply predictable. It's not about throwing too much at, it's about changing up tendency. People confuse (as he put it), being conservative with being predictable.

Pryor does not have to be put in a position to run a fully implemented offense. He simply needs to be put in a position to succeed - balanced but unpredictable play-calling and given chances to make plays. Mistakes will always be a byproduct of making plays. Nothing wrong with limiting mistakes. But Tressel is not letting playmakers play.

No one will claim Pryor is a polished QB. However, opposing coaching staffs are not having to respect his abilities because Ohio State is not coaching to those abilities. That is absolutely an opinion coming directly from staffs that coach against OSU.

We have heard the same exact excuses for why Ohio State doesn't open it up every year. Other than Troy Smith's Heisman season, the same exact reasons have been said year after year. Does it really take a Heisman Trophy winner to make the offense less predictable? More open?

Speaks volumes.

cincrazy
09-22-2009, 07:49 PM
It's a logical argument, but precedent suggests otherwise. Ohio State, as MWM pointed out, is simply predictable. It's not about throwing too much at, it's about changing up tendency. People confuse (as he put it), being conservative with being predictable.

Pryor does not have to be put in a position to run a fully implemented offense. He simply needs to be put in a position to succeed - balanced but unpredictable play-calling and given chances to make plays. Mistakes will always be a byproduct of making plays. Nothing wrong with limiting mistakes. But Tressel is not letting playmakers play.

No one will claim Pryor is a polished QB. However, opposing coaching staffs are not having to respect his abilities because Ohio State is not coaching to those abilities. That is absolutely an opinion coming directly from staffs that coach against OSU.

We have heard the same exact excuses for why Ohio State doesn't open it up every year. Other than Troy Smith's Heisman season, the same exact reasons have been said year after year. Does it really take a Heisman Trophy winner to make the offense less predictable? More open?

Speaks volumes.

And Pete Carroll wasn't predictable against OSU? How many runs up the middle on first down did Carroll call? What was the difference in the game plan between the two?

I agree with you, Tressel is a little too close to the vest at times. But Tressel and Carroll called pretty similar games, so I don't see how Carroll "out-coached" Tressel.

Brutus
09-22-2009, 07:57 PM
And Pete Carroll wasn't predictable against OSU? How many runs up the middle on first down did Carroll call? What was the difference in the game plan between the two?

I agree with you, Tressel is a little too close to the vest at times. But Tressel and Carroll called pretty similar games, so I don't see how Carroll "out-coached" Tressel.

When Tressel has the history of Carroll in big games, I'll consider that argument. Otherwise, in isolation, I don't see why it even comes back to Carroll with regard to play-calling. No one claims Carroll has an overly predictable offense. One game is not an indictment against his nature, unlike Tressel, who is like this all the time.

Yeah. So Carroll was predictable in a game where he had a true freshman starting quarterback playing his very first road game of his career and a young defense, on the road in front of a hostile crowd. How does that in any way justify Tressel's gameplanning?

No coach is without flaws. I'm not trying to exemplify Carroll. But the difference between the two in regards to playing elite competition is night and day. One wins big games, the other does not.

And that can be traced back almost directly to such philosophy of coaching. Carroll picked his battle when to buckle it down. Tressel never elects to open it up. That's the real issue, here.

improbus
09-22-2009, 08:01 PM
It's a logical argument, but precedent suggests otherwise. Ohio State, as MWM pointed out, is simply predictable. It's not about throwing too much at, it's about changing up tendency. People confuse (as he put it), being conservative with being predictable.

Pryor does not have to be put in a position to run a fully implemented offense. He simply needs to be put in a position to succeed - balanced but unpredictable play-calling and given chances to make plays. Mistakes will always be a byproduct of making plays. Nothing wrong with limiting mistakes. But Tressel is not letting playmakers play.

No one will claim Pryor is a polished QB. However, opposing coaching staffs are not having to respect his abilities because Ohio State is not coaching to those abilities. That is absolutely an opinion coming directly from staffs that coach against OSU.

We have heard the same exact excuses for why Ohio State doesn't open it up every year. Other than Troy Smith's Heisman season, the same exact reasons have been said year after year. Does it really take a Heisman Trophy winner to make the offense less predictable? More open?

Speaks volumes.
Agree 100%

*BaseClogger*
09-22-2009, 09:09 PM
It is not OSU's fault that Wisconsin, Michigan, and Iowa have been average at best in the last few years. But, that also mean that it is more difficult to gauge just how good OSU really is. If you were to categorize them, would you say that they are closer to Florida or Georgia? Based on their body of work, I think that they are more like Georgia than Florida but because of their schedule they get the opportunity to play in bigger bowl games against bigger opponents. So, I guess that the question is: Are OSU fans willing to be Georgia?

Yeah, they're basically like a Georgia but with a National Championship in the last ten years...

Caveat Emperor
09-22-2009, 11:03 PM
I would venture to say that a portion of those 15 votes are not even Buckeye fans. From my own experience, most of the excessive criticism of Tressel comes from Buckeye "haters."

I'm not an Ohio State fan, and I openly admit as much.

MWM has pretty much summed it up -- Tressel doesn't know offense. I don't foresee that changing, and I don't foresee him bringing someone in to fix that for him. Tressel does lots of things right, but as long as he continues to get this big one wrong, he's going to have a tough time getting over the proverbial "hump" vs. big time opposition.

If you're cool with that, more power to you.

kaldaniels
09-23-2009, 12:47 AM
Yeah, they're basically like a Georgia but with a National Championship in the last ten years...


OSU since 2001 final AP rank

NR,1,4,19,4,2,4,11

UGA since 2001

22,3,7,7,10,23,2,10

UF since 2001

3,NR,24,NR,12,1,13,1

Slice it and dice it however you want...OSU has been pretty dang good over Tressel's reign.

jimbo
09-23-2009, 07:41 AM
I'm not an Ohio State fan, and I openly admit as much.

MWM has pretty much summed it up -- Tressel doesn't know offense. I don't foresee that changing, and I don't foresee him bringing someone in to fix that for him. Tressel does lots of things right, but as long as he continues to get this big one wrong, he's going to have a tough time getting over the proverbial "hump" vs. big time opposition.

If you're cool with that, more power to you.

All I know is that if Pryor hadn't thrown that opening drive interception against USC and the Buckeyes had won 15-11, this thread wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be discussing any so-called proverbial "hump."

Ohio State is not as far off as you and others are making them out to be. From my experience and from reading this thread, anti-Ohio State fans always find something to be excessively critical of Tressel and the Buckeyes. If it wasn't the offense now, it would be something else. And when the Bucks do succeed, it's always because the other team wasn't as good as everyone thought, or the refs gave them the game........refer to the 2002 title game.

Yes, I am "cool" with the current state of tOSU football program, and I'm confident the majority of Buckeye fans are too. It's the "haters" (and I'm not singling you out as one) that are always coming up with these "the sky is falling" theories when it comes the Buckeyes and Tressel.

cincrazy
09-23-2009, 07:50 AM
When Tressel has the history of Carroll in big games, I'll consider that argument. Otherwise, in isolation, I don't see why it even comes back to Carroll with regard to play-calling. No one claims Carroll has an overly predictable offense. One game is not an indictment against his nature, unlike Tressel, who is like this all the time.

Yeah. So Carroll was predictable in a game where he had a true freshman starting quarterback playing his very first road game of his career and a young defense, on the road in front of a hostile crowd. How does that in any way justify Tressel's gameplanning?

No coach is without flaws. I'm not trying to exemplify Carroll. But the difference between the two in regards to playing elite competition is night and day. One wins big games, the other does not.

And that can be traced back almost directly to such philosophy of coaching. Carroll picked his battle when to buckle it down. Tressel never elects to open it up. That's the real issue, here.

Lets not pretend like Tressel hasn't won any big games here. The guy was a "big game coach" just three years ago, now you'd think he was Dave Shula.

And I'd rather have Tressel and his big game failings as of late than Carroll and his stunning ability to lose to Washington, Stanford, Oregon State, UCLA, and all the rest.

Neither coach is perfect. Nor, for that matter, is Urban Meyer. When Tebow graduates lets check back on the Gators in three years, see if they're big game record and Urban's big game coaching ability remain at its current level.

Like I've said, I have some problems with Tressel's play calling, no doubt about it. And some things should be changed. But I don't think this program would be any better off with any other coach in there. He is the PERFECT man to lead this university. He was three years ago, and he still is today :thumbup:.

dabvu2498
09-23-2009, 08:01 AM
OSU since 2001 final AP rank NR,1,4,19,4,2,4,11 UGA since 2001 22,3,7,7,10,23,2,10 UF since 2001 3,NR,24,NR,12,1,13,1 Slice it and dice it however you want...OSU has been pretty dang good over Tressel's reign. Meyer has only been at UF since 05. Richt at UGa: 84-23. Tressel at OSU: 84-20.

jimbo
09-23-2009, 08:30 AM
Tressel never elects to open it up. That's the real issue, here.

You must have missed the Troy Smith era. ;)

kaldaniels
09-23-2009, 09:30 AM
Meyer has only been at UF since 05. Richt at UGa: 84-23. Tressel at OSU: 84-20.

Urban Meyer's record since 2005 at UF. 47-9

Jim Tressels record since 2005. 45-9

Now I am not even attempting to say Tressel is on even ground with Meyer since 05. But bear in mind Meyer has been the most sucessful coach in college over the past 4 years and Jim T is right there with him in the W-L column. So if you want to use W-L to link programs (which you did with Richt/Tressel) you must do the same with OSU/UF.

dabvu2498
09-23-2009, 09:58 AM
Urban Meyer's record since 2005 at UF. 47-9 Jim Tressels record since 2005. 45-9 Now I am not even attempting to say Tressel is on even ground with Meyer since 05. But bear in mind Meyer has been the most sucessful coach in college over the past 4 years and Jim T is right there with him in the W-L column. So if you want to use W-L to link programs (which you did with Richt/Tressel) you must do the same with OSU/UF. True enough. I honestly think all 3 of them are over-rated, as strange as that may sound. Opinions on Meyer will continue to develop after Tebow leaves. That should be interesting. I have to add that my perception is kinda skewed since none of the teams that I have a rooting interest in are, or will ever be, in national championship contention.

WVRed
09-23-2009, 10:32 AM
Neither coach is perfect. Nor, for that matter, is Urban Meyer. When Tebow graduates lets check back on the Gators in three years, see if they're big game record and Urban's big game coaching ability remain at its current level

I believe after this season there will be a considerable drop-off for Florida. Not enough to where they are fighting for a bowl bid but enough that Alabama and LSU will pass them as premiere teams in the SEC.

cincrazy
09-23-2009, 11:59 AM
I believe after this season there will be a considerable drop-off for Florida. Not enough to where they are fighting for a bowl bid but enough that Alabama and LSU will pass them as premiere teams in the SEC.

Completely agreed. Meyer has a great program, but you don't lose that kind of talent without feeling it. I think it will be similar to when the Gators basketball team went pro/graduated after their consecutive national titles. Losing that much talent, at once, is bound to set you back for at least a little while.

I think Meyer will be spending many nights in Billy Donovan's office seeking advice.

Chip R
09-23-2009, 12:30 PM
Perhaps we should ask a slightly different question. Should Jim Tressel be fired if he refuses to relinquish the play calling duties? That seems like everyone's major beef with him.

Roy Tucker
09-23-2009, 02:13 PM
Didn't Meyer win a NC with Chris Leak at QB?

WVRed
09-23-2009, 02:21 PM
Didn't Meyer win a NC with Chris Leak at QB?

Leak's senior season. Tebow was a freshman and he alternated the two.

dabvu2498
09-23-2009, 04:13 PM
Leak's senior season. Tebow was a freshman and he alternated the two. Tebow was essentially the short yardage guy. Though he did find other ways to use him some. I would guess Leak got around 75% of the snaps on the season. Hard to believe that Tebow will score more rushing TDs for his college career than Hershel Walker.

KronoRed
09-23-2009, 04:34 PM
Didn't Meyer win a NC with Chris Leak at QB?

Stop that Roy, Meyer is just Tebow, Florida will stink without him ;)

MWM
09-23-2009, 06:16 PM
Stop that Roy, Meyer is just Tebow, Florida will stink without him ;)

I've always argued that it's Meyer, not Tebow, that runs that engine. They'll be fine with Meyer at the helm. He might be the best coach in the country.

Highlifeman21
09-23-2009, 07:04 PM
Perhaps we should ask a slightly different question. Should Jim Tressel be fired if he refuses to relinquish the play calling duties? That seems like everyone's major beef with him.

That's essentially giving himself enough rope to hang himself.

I can't imagine tOSU's AD will come down with an edict saying "Hire an Offensive Coordinator, or I'm firing you."

You'd see more cars burned over Tressel getting fired b/c he didn't hire an OC than during any Michigan weekend.