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Captain Hook
09-28-2009, 12:11 AM
So now that we're a couple weeks into the season is there any question about who's the best team in the Big 10.IMO there isn't.The Bucks struggled against what will end up being the Pac 10 champs but even while loosing left little question about their defense.They really should have won the game but ended up barley loosing to the best out of conference opponent on any of the other Big 10 teams schedule.

Hands down they are the team to beat.Certainly Penn St. on the road will be tough but I don't see any other team that can match up if the Bucks show up and they usually do while playing in conference.Now that we've had a good look at all of the teams here's how I see things shaping up.

1.OSU
2.PSU
3.Iowa
4.Mich.
5.Minn
6.Wisc.
7.Purdue
8.Ind.
9.Ill.
10.Mich. St.
11.NW

VR
09-28-2009, 12:19 AM
Does Iowa beating Penn State still keep Iowa below Penn State?

Captain Hook
09-28-2009, 12:37 AM
Does Iowa beating Penn State still keep Iowa below Penn State?

Surprisingly Iowa went from being not ranked to 13th(2 spots ahead of Penn St)in the AP poll.In my book though it was just a big upset.Iowa will eventually fall behind Penn St.

It's really hard to believe that 1 little team that hasn't beat anyone from the weak Big 10 can beat another team from the weak Big 10 that hasn't beat anyone can get so much respect.What do I know though?

Boston Red
09-28-2009, 01:50 AM
Damning OSU with faint praise?

Captain Hook
09-28-2009, 02:12 AM
Damning OSU with faint praise?

Maybe so.

As a fan though I'll take another Big 10 title no matter how weak the conference is along with a 5th straight BCS bowl game(a win would do wonders) especially considering that this team will return almost everybody next year.

Eventually the Big 10 will return to the top as one of the nations strongest conferences and when they do OSU will be leading the way.As for now at least the Bucks aren't in the Big East or ACC.

Boston Red
09-28-2009, 02:14 AM
Both of which, according to Sagarin, are stronger than the Big Ten.

Captain Hook
09-28-2009, 02:26 AM
Both of which, according to Sagarin, are stronger than the Big Ten.

....but according to conference RPI the Big 10 is 3rd best behind the SEC and Big 12.

Boston Red
09-28-2009, 09:14 AM
Thanks. I looked but could not find any other objective conference ratings. I think one of the BCS computer polls that does not start publishing until mid-October includes one, but that is obviously not available yet.

traderumor
09-28-2009, 09:29 AM
Damning OSU with faint praise?I don't know why Ohio State should be discounted for doing their job while the rest of the conference programs flounder in mediocrity.

SeeinRed
09-28-2009, 11:15 AM
I don't know why Ohio State should be discounted for doing their job while the rest of the conference programs flounder in mediocrity.

Yeah, I'm not an OSU fan but a conference championship isn't something that comes easy, ever. If you win a championship in a BCS conference, you are doing something right. Gotta give credit where credit is due.

Sea Ray
09-28-2009, 11:22 AM
As has been the case in recent years, OSU is far and away the best team in the Big Ten. However we also see that they have no business being in the conversaton for a national championship and that tells us a lot about the Big Ten. OSU is a very good program, just spare me the national championship talk after they roll over the Big Ten in the next couple of months...

Roy Tucker
09-28-2009, 11:24 AM
I'll withhold judgement till after the end of the season.

Getting through Iowa, Penn State, and Michigan is no walk in the park nor a sure thing.

BuckeyeRed27
09-28-2009, 11:31 AM
As has been the case in recent years, OSU is far and away the best team in the Big Ten. However we also see that they have no business being in the conversaton for a national championship and that tells us a lot about the Big Ten. OSU is a very good program, just spare me the national championship talk after they roll over the Big Ten in the next couple of months...

Generally I agree with this statement. At the moment I don't believe OSU should be in the national championship conversation. However, lets say that Florida, Texas, USC, all drop a game.
Ohio State's last three games are @ Penn St, Iowa, @ Michigan. All three of those teams could be ranked and Iowa could be ranked in the Top 10 or 15. With no other unbeatens nationally, a tough home loss on the resume and three wins against ranked opponents to end the season it would be hard to keep the Bucks out of the conversation if not the game itself.

Sea Ray
09-28-2009, 11:41 AM
Generally I agree with this statement. At the moment I don't believe OSU should be in the national championship conversation. However, lets say that Florida, Texas, USC, all drop a game.
Ohio State's last three games are @ Penn St, Iowa, @ Michigan. All three of those teams could be ranked and Iowa could be ranked in the Top 10 or 15. With no other unbeatens nationally, a tough home loss on the resume and three wins against ranked opponents to end the season it would be hard to keep the Bucks out of the conversation if not the game itself.

This is what bothers me. We've been through this other years. We add up the games and it looks like OSU should be in the NC game and then OSU lays an egg. I need a break. I can't deal with it again. The Buckeyes have shown us time and time again that winning the Big Ten does not mean they are NC worthy. Under your scenario I'd put UC in the game before OSU if they had zero or one loss.

USC was very weak when they won in Columbus. I expect the Trojans to finish strong but they were starting a FR QB and a totally revamped defense along with a bunch of new starters on offense, playing 2000 miles away from home in front of the loudest crowd I've ever seen at Ohio Stadium.

traderumor
09-28-2009, 01:49 PM
This is what bothers me. We've been through this other years. We add up the games and it looks like OSU should be in the NC game and then OSU lays an egg. I need a break. I can't deal with it again. The Buckeyes have shown us time and time again that winning the Big Ten does not mean they are NC worthy. Under your scenario I'd put UC in the game before OSU if they had zero or one loss.

USC was very weak when they won in Columbus. I expect the Trojans to finish strong but they were starting a FR QB and a totally revamped defense along with a bunch of new starters on offense, playing 2000 miles away from home in front of the loudest crowd I've ever seen at Ohio Stadium.

I think for BCS each year has to be judged on its own merit. I hear what you are saying, but with the animal of college football, what happened in the past is irrelevant.

SeeinRed
09-28-2009, 02:05 PM
When the system you use for the National Championship game is flawed, you'll have flawed results. OSU might not have passed the test of your eyes for the championship game in the past, but they certainly deserved the chance to play when the system that decides the game says they do. Its not OSU's fault or the fans, its the system.

gonelong
09-28-2009, 03:01 PM
I think the Big10+1 is down even farther than most realize, but I think this year is the bottom and they will be bouncing back up.

Neither LSU nor OSU "deserved" to be in that title game, but it's how the system is set up right now. There were several OSU teams in the late 90's that would have fared very well with anyone in the nation and never got the shot due to a single loss along the way.

[dream sequence]
I'd love to see some teams from the south and the west have to come into the mid-west during Dec/Jan to win a game ala the San Diego Chargers vs. the Bengals in the freezer bowl. All the big Big10 non-conference games are early in and relatively mild weather. The Big10, Big East, etc. teams **have** to account for inclement mid-west weather that the Southern, Pac10, and Texas/Arz schools seem to be able to pass on. It'd be nice if that disadvantage could be an advantage from time to time.
[/dream sequence]

The SEC seem invincible right now, but so did Mia(FL), FSU, etc. once upon a time. Enjoy it, it's fleeting. I worry about OSU, they have been on a nice 15 year run ... that's usually about all you can expect out of a program before they his some down times.

GL

Chip R
09-28-2009, 03:46 PM
[dream sequence]
I'd love to see some teams from the south and the west have to come into the mid-west during Dec/Jan to win a game ala the San Diego Chargers vs. the Bengals in the freezer bowl. All the big Big10 non-conference games are early in and relatively mild weather. The Big10, Big East, etc. teams **have** to account for inclement mid-west weather that the Southern, Pac10, and Texas/Arz schools seem to be able to pass on. It'd be nice if that disadvantage could be an advantage from time to time.
[/dream sequence]



That's mainly because they have to play their conference games too and by some strange coincidence, all their conference games are in the same geographical area they are. Who knew?

Now I do remember when Miami and I believe Florida State would play at Notre Dame later in the season. Of course they were all independents at that time so that was a big reason why they were able to make those matchups.

Highlifeman21
09-28-2009, 04:02 PM
As has been the case in recent years, OSU is far and away the best team in the Big Ten. However we also see that they have no business being in the conversaton for a national championship and that tells us a lot about the Big Ten. OSU is a very good program, just spare me the national championship talk after they roll over the Big Ten in the next couple of months...

I couldn't agree more.

Winning a weak BCS conference is just that. tOSU should count their blessings that the rest of the conference underperforms something awful.

Iowa beating PSU tells me all I need to know about overrated PSU, as well as the sorry Big 11.

Lately, the Big 11 is a 2 horse race, tOSU and PSU. I've always though PSU is one of, if not the most, overrated teams in all of college football, so that leaves tOSU to basically not screw up wrapping up the Big 11 crown.

Captain Hook
09-28-2009, 05:18 PM
If OSU wins out and finishes the regular at 1 or 2 then they deserve to play for the National Championship.The truth is that they are in fact at a disadvantage because they play in a weak conference.It's not like the Big 10 has been fooling people the last few years.The perception has been that the Bucks have in years past have had an easy road to their good records and maybe so.The thing is that all of the same people in the media that criticize still have thought enough of them to vote the Bucks 1 or 2.I guess that if they win out this year and finish at 1 or 2 they will just be fooling the system and all the people involved in the process.I don't buy that one bit.

For the record I don't think they win out this year but if they do I believe they will play for another National Championship.

BuckeyeRed27
09-28-2009, 05:18 PM
I couldn't agree more.

Winning a weak BCS conference is just that. tOSU should count their blessings that the rest of the conference underperforms something awful.

Iowa beating PSU tells me all I need to know about overrated PSU, as well as the sorry Big 11.

Lately, the Big 11 is a 2 horse race, tOSU and PSU. I've always though PSU is one of, if not the most, overrated teams in all of college football, so that leaves tOSU to basically not screw up wrapping up the Big 11 crown.

Once again I'm only playing Devil's advocate here as I don't believe at this moment OSU is deserving of being in the national title picture.

But whether or not you feel the conference is overrated I think you have to consider OSU if they win convincingly on three consecutive weekends against the Top 3 teams in their conference. We'll have to see how it plays out but there is a chance that OSU's finish could be something like:
W @ #20 PSU
W H #10 Iowa
W @ #20 Michigan

No one else is going to have that type of finish based on what I looked at. Now they would have to leave no doubt in all of those games, something I'm not sure they can do at this point, but if they do they would look just as good if not better than any other one loss team.

jimbo
09-28-2009, 05:33 PM
Neither LSU nor OSU "deserved" to be in that title game, but it's how the system is set up right now.

I don't see how you can blame the system for what happened that seasoned, it just came down to all of the teams ahead of OSU losing to teams they had no business losing to. One top 5 team after another, during the last 3 or so weeks of that season, dropped games against mediocre competition, while the Buckeyes continued to beat the teams they should have. How can you say any of those teams deserved in over either LSU or OSU?

Just because we think one team is better than another, isn't enough to put a team in the championship game. You have to take care of business on the field during your season and earn it.

traderumor
09-28-2009, 07:06 PM
I couldn't agree more.

Winning a weak BCS conference is just that. tOSU should count their blessings that the rest of the conference underperforms something awful.

Iowa beating PSU tells me all I need to know about overrated PSU, as well as the sorry Big 11.

Lately, the Big 11 is a 2 horse race, tOSU and PSU. I've always though PSU is one of, if not the most, overrated teams in all of college football, so that leaves tOSU to basically not screw up wrapping up the Big 11 crown.Mark May couldn't of said it better himself.

Sea Ray
09-28-2009, 09:15 PM
Once again I'm only playing Devil's advocate here as I don't believe at this moment OSU is deserving of being in the national title picture.

But whether or not you feel the conference is overrated I think you have to consider OSU if they win convincingly on three consecutive weekends against the Top 3 teams in their conference. We'll have to see how it plays out but there is a chance that OSU's finish could be something like:
W @ #20 PSU
W H #10 Iowa
W @ #20 Michigan

No one else is going to have that type of finish based on what I looked at. Now they would have to leave no doubt in all of those games, something I'm not sure they can do at this point, but if they do they would look just as good if not better than any other one loss team.

Well the winner of the SEC championship game will have a tougher road. It could be Florida vs Alabama, a 1 vs 2 nationally.

OSU has had similar finishes to the one you show above only to find out that they were pretenders. How many times do we need to learn that lesson?

Recent history shows us that OSU looks better than they really are after beating up on Big Ten foes. For that reason, I wouldn't give them the love if I'm a BCS "voter".

Captain Hook
09-28-2009, 09:21 PM
Well the winner of the SEC championship game will have a tougher road. It could be Florida vs Alabama, a 1 vs 2 nationally.

OSU has had similar finishes to the one you show above only to find out that they were pretenders. How many times do we need to learn that lesson?

Recent history shows us that OSU looks better than they really are after beating up on Big Ten foes. For that reason, I wouldn't give them the love if I'm a BCS "voter".

I would imagine that if you had a vote and based any decision you made on history less recent then the 2009 football season it would be frowned upon.I guess you could do it but I just wouldn't admit to it.

BuckeyeRed27
09-28-2009, 09:33 PM
Well the winner of the SEC championship game will have a tougher road. It could be Florida vs Alabama, a 1 vs 2 nationally.

OSU has had similar finishes to the one you show above only to find out that they were pretenders. How many times do we need to learn that lesson?

Recent history shows us that OSU looks better than they really are after beating up on Big Ten foes. For that reason, I wouldn't give them the love if I'm a BCS "voter".

Assuming its Florida vs. Bama for the SEC then Florida would finish with:

H Florida International
H Florida State
vs. #2-4 Alabama

Alabama would finish

H Chatanooga
@ #20-NR Auburn
vs. #1 Florida

Depending on Auburn's season Alabama would have a tough back to back as does Florida depending on how Florida State looks, but that's a big if right now. I think that obviously the winner of this game should get a national championship spot even if they both have a loss coming into the game, but those last three games are not harder than the stretch the OSU potentially faces.

Captain Hook
09-28-2009, 10:17 PM
Just for fun lets assume that OSU runs the table and that no one ranked below them does the same and jumps the Bucks.They have 7 spots to move up to get to #2.

3 of the teams ahead of them are SEC teams so imo you eliminate 2 of those teams and assume that 1 of them will be #1 or #2 at the end of the season.That leaves 5 spots the Bucks have to jump.I hate to say it but Boise State will fall behind OSU regardless of what they do the rest of the way.So that leaves 4 spots.I could see Ohio State jumping VT as well but feel they are likely to loose again.That leaves 3 spots.Does anyone see USC winning out?I really don't.So that's 2 spots.Now here is where it gets tough.Texas and Oklahoma play each other and I really feel that Texas will win that game.It actually would work out better for OSU that way because it would eliminate anther team.If Texas losses they would at that point in the season stay ahead of the Bucks so not only do I think Texas win I really hope they do.After that I think Texas will eventually stumble but the timing has to be just right for OSU to pass them up.When Texas does loose Ohio State will have to be no more then 3 or 4 spots behind them or else Texas will remain the higher ranked team.It would take another Texas loss to get OSU in and while it could happen I wouldn't bet on it.So if you hoping the Bucks can get to another NC game your certainly rooting for the Longhorns to go down very late in the season or they loose more then once.

While all of this could end up playing out many different ways it's hard to deny that OSU is at least in the conversation.




1 Florida 4-0
2 Texas 4-0
3 Alabama 4-0
4 LSU 4-0
5 Boise State 4-0
6 Virginia Tech 3-1
7 USC 3-1
8 Oklahoma 2-1
9 Ohio State 3-1

jimbo
09-28-2009, 10:38 PM
Recent history shows us that OSU looks better than they really are after beating up on Big Ten foes. For that reason, I wouldn't give them the love if I'm a BCS "voter".

My guess is that you wouldn't give them "love" in any scenario whatsoever.

cincrazy
09-28-2009, 10:41 PM
Well the winner of the SEC championship game will have a tougher road. It could be Florida vs Alabama, a 1 vs 2 nationally.

OSU has had similar finishes to the one you show above only to find out that they were pretenders. How many times do we need to learn that lesson?

Recent history shows us that OSU looks better than they really are after beating up on Big Ten foes. For that reason, I wouldn't give them the love if I'm a BCS "voter".

cincrazy
09-28-2009, 10:42 PM
Well the winner of the SEC championship game will have a tougher road. It could be Florida vs Alabama, a 1 vs 2 nationally.

OSU has had similar finishes to the one you show above only to find out that they were pretenders. How many times do we need to learn that lesson?

Recent history shows us that OSU looks better than they really are after beating up on Big Ten foes. For that reason, I wouldn't give them the love if I'm a BCS "voter".

I think OSU is perfectly capable of beating anyone in college football this season, including Florida.

With that being said, they certainly don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Barring several collapses, they won't play for the national title, and deservedly so.

But the Gators, among others, don't exactly run the gauntlet to get to the title game... that's nothing but a myth this season. Florida might have an easier schedule than OSU, actually.

Tony_Danza
09-28-2009, 11:17 PM
I think OSU is perfectly capable of beating anyone in college football this season, including Florida.

With that being said, they certainly don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Barring several collapses, they won't play for the national title, and deservedly so.

But the Gators, among others, don't exactly run the gauntlet to get to the title game... that's nothing but a myth this season. Florida might have an easier schedule than OSU, actually.

Are you crazy? (I guess your name says it all) :cool:

LOL

But I guess saying that OSU is capable of beating is a somewhat valid claim. As we have seen in years past, any team can beat anyone on any given saturday. But I just don't know if I can defend a team that lost at home (granted it was USC) and then just assume that they will win out while the other teams will all stumble. Personally I think Boise State could play with any team in the country but unfortunately they will never get that chance in a National Championship Game.

Highlifeman21
09-28-2009, 11:39 PM
Mark May couldn't of said it better himself.

Damn, you're right.

I somehow channeled Mark May, and I can't stand him.

Highlifeman21
09-28-2009, 11:48 PM
I think OSU is perfectly capable of beating anyone in college football this season, including Florida.

With that being said, they certainly don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Barring several collapses, they won't play for the national title, and deservedly so.

But the Gators, among others, don't exactly run the gauntlet to get to the title game... that's nothing but a myth this season. Florida might have an easier schedule than OSU, actually.

So they couldn't beat a USC team that wasn't firing on all cylinders in The Horseshoe, yet they're perfectly capable of beating anyone?

This could all end up being moot if tOSU slips up and loses to Wisconsin, Purdue, Minnesota, PSU, Iowa, or Michigan. 1 loss to any of those teams, and it's bye bye National Championship thoughts.

Florida, however, has LSU, Georgia, Vanderbilt, South Carolina, Florida State and then probably the SEC Championship standing in their way.

I'd say that easily a tougher road to the NC than faces the Buckeyes.

Captain Hook
09-29-2009, 12:17 AM
So they couldn't beat a USC team that wasn't firing on all cylinders in The Horseshoe, yet they're perfectly capable of beating anyone?

This could all end up being moot if tOSU slips up and loses to Wisconsin, Purdue, Minnesota, PSU, Iowa, or Michigan. 1 loss to any of those teams, and it's bye bye National Championship thoughts.

Florida, however, has LSU, Georgia, Vanderbilt, South Carolina, Florida State and then probably the SEC Championship standing in their way.

I'd say that easily a tougher road to the NC than faces the Buckeyes.

USC wasn't firing on all cylinders?Maybe OSU had something to do with that.While the opponents haven't been top notch back to back shutouts following the loss is impressive.

It's also just as easy to say the same for OSU considering it was only their second game of the season after loosing their starting RB and top 2 WR to the NFL draft.Not to mention the defensive losses from last year.It's very possible that the Bucks offense will improve as the season goes on every bit as much as USC's will.

*BaseClogger*
09-29-2009, 01:36 AM
This is what bothers me. We've been through this other years. We add up the games and it looks like OSU should be in the NC game and then OSU lays an egg. I need a break. I can't deal with it again. The Buckeyes have shown us time and time again that winning the Big Ten does not mean they are NC worthy. Under your scenario I'd put UC in the game before OSU if they had zero or one loss.

USC was very weak when they won in Columbus. I expect the Trojans to finish strong but they were starting a FR QB and a totally revamped defense along with a bunch of new starters on offense, playing 2000 miles away from home in front of the loudest crowd I've ever seen at Ohio Stadium.

Which team left on the UC schedule is a more acceptable loss than Ohio State's three point loss to USC?

And since you are so caught up in past results, how can you put a program like UC in a National Title game over a perennial powerhouse like Ohio State?

SeeinRed
09-29-2009, 08:52 AM
And since you are so caught up in past results, how can you put a program like UC in a National Title game over a perennial powerhouse like Ohio State?

I can answer this one easy. Because it isn't supposed to be based on anything but what happens this year. You'd be foolish to believe OSU deserves it more because of tradition. It probably does weigh into the decision, but it shouldn't. If UC is undefeated at the end of the year, I see no way OSU gets the nod over them. That would just cause another headache for the BCS system and another reason for everyone to get behind a playoff system.

I however believe IF it came down to UC and OSU both at one loss, you have to pick OSU because of the conference they play in right now. There is no doubt that the Big Ten is a better conference. It may be over-rated, but it is a better conference.

SeeinRed
09-29-2009, 08:59 AM
USC wasn't firing on all cylinders?Maybe OSU had something to do with that.While the opponents haven't been top notch back to back shutouts following the loss is impressive.


On the other hand, OSU almost lost to Navy, who they should have dominated. The USC game probably isn't going to hurt too bad, but it was only the second game for USC's QB career. A true fresman in the Horseshoe. Obviously you can't prove it, but OSU probably gets beaten by a larger margin at USC or neutral site. OSU has a very good team, but not an elite team this year.

DTCromer
09-29-2009, 09:15 AM
I don't know why Ohio State should be discounted for doing their job while the rest of the conference programs flounder in mediocrity.


Who says OSU isn't floating in mediocrity? Just because they've been to a BCS bowl for 5 straight years and constantly laying an egg in those games?

Highlifeman21
09-29-2009, 09:51 AM
USC wasn't firing on all cylinders?Maybe OSU had something to do with that.While the opponents haven't been top notch back to back shutouts following the loss is impressive.

It's also just as easy to say the same for OSU considering it was only their second game of the season after loosing their starting RB and top 2 WR to the NFL draft.Not to mention the defensive losses from last year.It's very possible that the Bucks offense will improve as the season goes on every bit as much as USC's will.

Why deflect? NFL players no longer playing for tOSU have nothing to do with their current team. Just like Mark Sanchez has nothing to do with the current USC team.

For argument's sake, assuming tOSU's D had as much to do with shutting down USC as did an inexperienced Frosh, tOSU's loss now is attributed to Wells and a couple WRs playing on Sundays?

I don't buy it.

Highlifeman21
09-29-2009, 09:56 AM
Who says OSU isn't floating in mediocrity? Just because they've been to a BCS bowl for 5 straight years and constantly laying an egg in those games?

The Ohio State University going to BCS bowls is directly the result of winning a weak conference that thanks to the crappy BCS structure rewards the Big 11 Champ with a BCS berth.

Weak conference combined with the crappy BCS = BCS Bowls for the Bucks

Sea Ray
09-29-2009, 10:36 AM
I think OSU is perfectly capable of beating anyone in college football this season, including Florida.




Why would you think that OSU could beat a healthy Florida team? They have the same things that has proven to embarrass OSU like tremendous team speed.

Boston Red
09-29-2009, 10:38 AM
There is no doubt that the Big Ten is a better conference. It may be over-rated, but it is a better conference.

I think it is very, very close. And that's not an endorsement of either conference.

Sea Ray
09-29-2009, 10:43 AM
USC wasn't firing on all cylinders?Maybe OSU had something to do with that.


OSU had nothing to do with:

1) USC starting a freshman at QB
2) USC having 8 new starters on defense
3) Losing their All PAC 10 center in August to injury

traderumor
09-29-2009, 10:44 AM
Who says OSU isn't floating in mediocrity? Just because they've been to a BCS bowl for 5 straight years and constantly laying an egg in those games?Hmmm, constantly laying an egg--thumped Kansas St. and Notre Dame in consecutive years, lost to Texas in the last seconds last year, a Texas team that was arguably deserving of the NC game themselves? Florida plays a perfect half of football three years ago and the Buckeyes are mediocre, laying eggs in the BCS games. More Mark May narrative.

Sea Ray
09-29-2009, 10:47 AM
Which team left on the UC schedule is a more acceptable loss than Ohio State's three point loss to USC?

And since you are so caught up in past results, how can you put a program like UC in a National Title game over a perennial powerhouse like Ohio State?

That perennial powerhouse has had its chances and has blown it bigtime. OSU gets no "points" for being a perennial powerhouse. Let UC get embarrassed for a change...Can't do any worse than OSU has.

As for comparing losses we'll see. It's to early to play that game. I do know that past history tells us that running the table in the Big Ten means nothing

DTCromer
09-29-2009, 10:49 AM
Hmmm, constantly laying an egg--thumped Kansas St. and Notre Dame in consecutive years, lost to Texas in the last seconds last year, a Texas team that was arguably deserving of the NC game themselves? Florida plays a perfect half of football three years ago and the Buckeyes are mediocre, laying eggs in the BCS games. More Mark May narrative.

lulz @ UF playing a "perfect half." The high point of that game was Teddy returning the opening KO. . . and it was all down hill as soon as he crossed the goal line.

Of course they played the "perfect half!" They were playing OSU. I'm not saying OSU is mediocre, per say, but who's to say they aren't? What's so great about beating a ND team that hasn't won a bowl game since. . . well, I can't even remember.

jimbo
09-29-2009, 10:49 AM
Who says OSU isn't floating in mediocrity? Just because they've been to a BCS bowl for 5 straight years and constantly laying an egg in those games?

Tressel is 3-3 in BCS bowl games.

jimbo
09-29-2009, 10:51 AM
The Ohio State University going to BCS bowls is directly the result of winning a weak conference that thanks to the crappy BCS structure rewards the Big 11 Champ with a BCS berth.

Weak conference combined with the crappy BCS = BCS Bowls for the Bucks

The Big 10 is currrently ranked 3rd in the RPI. You consider that weak? Does that mean that there are 24 "weak" conferences and only 2 strong ones?

Of course, here comes the argument that the RPI is flawed and meaningless.

Sea Ray
09-29-2009, 10:52 AM
Every year the scenario is the same. OSu fans pump up their resume to get into the NC game. Reasonable folks say no they're not worthy. Then we see OSU prove the reasonable fans right and then the OSU fans do not learn from their mistakes and start the process all over again. It's amazing...

traderumor
09-29-2009, 10:53 AM
lulz @ UF playing a "perfect half." The high point of that game was Teddy returning the opening KO. . . and it was all down hill as soon as he crossed the goal line.

Of course they played the "perfect half!" They were playing OSU. I'm not saying OSU is mediocre, per say, but who's to say they aren't? What's so great about beating a ND team that hasn't won a bowl game since. . . well, I can't even remember.You referenced laying eggs in BCS games, so when it is demonstrated that "laying eggs led to wins in some games," it was because of weak opponents in BCS games? Nice sleight of hand, but I'm confident that response shows the level of your opinion.

traderumor
09-29-2009, 10:55 AM
Every year the scenario is the same. OSu fans pump up their resume to get into the NC game. Reasonable folks say no they're not worthy. Then we see OSU prove the reasonable fans right and then the OSU fans do not learn from their mistakes and start the process all over again. It's amazing...Yes, OSU fans are highly influencing the process with email campaigns, making the schedule fall just so, making sure that other more worthy teams get upset along the way...the huge Buckeye conspiracy stealing the joy of a mythical NC game :rolleyes:

jimbo
09-29-2009, 10:55 AM
Every year the scenario is the same. OSu fans pump up their resume to get into the NC game. Reasonable folks say no they're not worthy. Then we see OSU prove the reasonable fans right and then the OSU fans do not learn from their mistakes and start the process all over again. It's amazing...

Every year?

What's amazing is how the "reasonable" haters memories only go back a couple of years or a couple of games.

DTCromer
09-29-2009, 10:59 AM
Tressel is 3-3 in BCS bowl games.


Beating Kansas State (a 4-loss team), Notre Dame (extremely overrated and a team who shouldn't have been there anyway), and miami (needing a -3 TO margin, a VERY questionable call, and a should-be heisman winner tearing up his knee).

Sea Ray
09-29-2009, 11:00 AM
Yes, OSU fans are highly influencing the process with email campaigns, making the schedule fall just so, making sure that other more worthy teams get upset along the way...the huge Buckeye conspiracy stealing the joy of a mythical NC game


Where did I say OSU fans influenced the process? Maybe some did but the folks I argue with here on RZ have no such power. That I'm sure of.

Sea Ray
09-29-2009, 11:01 AM
Every year?

What's amazing is how the "reasonable" haters memories only go back a couple of years or a couple of games.

You make a good point. This is a recent OSU problem. Obviously they were legitimately in the NC game when they beat Miami (FL)

What makes me a hater? I happen to have an OSU degree on my wall. I'm just not a Kool Aide drinker

Boston Red
09-29-2009, 11:02 AM
Of course, here comes the argument that the RPI is flawed and meaningless.


Well, the RPI IS highly flawed if not meaningless.

DTCromer
09-29-2009, 11:02 AM
Every year the scenario is the same. OSu fans pump up their resume to get into the NC game. Reasonable folks say no they're not worthy. Then we see OSU prove the reasonable fans right and then the OSU fans do not learn from their mistakes and start the process all over again. It's amazing...

Although it's unfair, certain teams will get the nod over other teams because of $. It's not the way it should be, but it is. OSU/Texas/LSU/etc are some of those teams who if resumes are even closely similar, they will play in a BCS game (unless they're competing against each other). OSU has earned their right for BCS spot more than other teams. Notre Dame is obviously a team who gets the benefit of the doubt more than any other college team.

Sea Ray
09-29-2009, 11:14 AM
Although it's unfair, certain teams will get the nod over other teams because of $. It's not the way it should be, but it is. OSU/Texas/LSU/etc are some of those teams who if resumes are even closely similar, they will play in a BCS game (unless they're competing against each other). OSU has earned their right for BCS spot more than other teams. Notre Dame is obviously a team who gets the benefit of the doubt more than any other college team.

I have no problem with OSU getting a BCS bid. They are clearly the best Big Ten team and should represent the Big Ten in the BCS. My argument is about the NC game

jimbo
09-29-2009, 11:15 AM
Beating Kansas State (a 4-loss team), Notre Dame (extremely overrated and a team who shouldn't have been there anyway), and miami (needing a -3 TO margin, a VERY questionable call, and a should-be heisman winner tearing up his knee).

I know, when the Buckeyes win a BCS bowl game, it's because their opponent was overrated and didn't belong or the refs won it for them. :rolleyes:

Sea Ray
09-29-2009, 11:17 AM
I know, when the Buckeyes win a BCS bowl game, it's because their opponent was overrated and didn't belong or the refs won it for them. :rolleyes:

Be sarcastic all you want but he makes a good point where KSU and ND are concerned

BuckeyeRed27
09-29-2009, 11:30 AM
Be sarcastic all you want but he makes a good point where KSU and ND are concerned

No he doesn't.
Kansas State was the Big 12 Champion. They were 11-2 (with the OSU loss that makes 3, but we'll say 4 because that makes his case better). Coming into the game and had just beat #1 Oklahoma 35-7 the game before they played the Buckeyes.
Notre Dame was 9-2 coming into the game with their only losses being an OT loss by 3 to Michigan State and the 3 point "Bush Push" loss to USC. They were 6 points from being undefeated. That was the best Notre Dame team in recent memory and deserved to be in a BCS game.

jimbo
09-29-2009, 11:32 AM
Be sarcastic all you want but he makes a good point where KSU and ND are concerned

I'm being sarcastic because it's the same basic argument that continuously come from the anti-OSU fans. Downplay their opponent whenever they win. When they lose, refer to the two NC title game losses and how they didn't belong and will never belong again because the Big 10 is weak.

SeeinRed
09-29-2009, 11:41 AM
I'm being sarcastic because it's the same basic argument that continuously come from the anti-OSU fans. Downplay their opponent whenever they win. When they lose, refer to the two NC title game losses and how they didn't belong and will never belong again because the Big 10 is weak.


I wouldn't get all worked up over it. Its not just people who are against OSU, it is all fans in general. When the team they don't like wins, they can name plenty of reasons why it wasn't as good of a win as it seems. In fact, I know a few OSU fans who do the same to other teams. Trust me, OSU isn't the only team with this happening. As long as there are sports fans, there will be downplaying of other team's success.

This whole subject is kinda like beating a dead horse. There is no tangible way to prove or disprove these thoughts. I can throw all the proof out there of one thing and you'll have proof of the opposite. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. A playoff system would cure some of this, but not all of it.

Chip R
09-29-2009, 12:06 PM
Where did I say OSU fans influenced the process? Maybe some did but the folks I argue with here on RZ have no such power. That I'm sure of.


You underestimate the RedsZone 10.

Roy Tucker
09-29-2009, 12:13 PM
OSU stinks>truth<OSU is great

LoganBuck
09-29-2009, 12:16 PM
So who on here decided to suspend Kurt Coleman?

cincrazy
09-29-2009, 12:36 PM
So they couldn't beat a USC team that wasn't firing on all cylinders in The Horseshoe, yet they're perfectly capable of beating anyone?

This could all end up being moot if tOSU slips up and loses to Wisconsin, Purdue, Minnesota, PSU, Iowa, or Michigan. 1 loss to any of those teams, and it's bye bye National Championship thoughts.

Florida, however, has LSU, Georgia, Vanderbilt, South Carolina, Florida State and then probably the SEC Championship standing in their way.

I'd say that easily a tougher road to the NC than faces the Buckeyes.

I didn't say OSU WOULD beat anyone, I said they could. It's a very underwhelming year in college football, and OSU has a great defense. If the offense figures it out, look out. If not, they're right where they belong.

And I'm sorry, but Florida's schedule sucks. LSU isn't anywhere NEAR a top 5 team, Georgia is mediocre, Florida State isn't any good, let alone S.C. or Vandy. The SEC title game is clearly a test, and a road game at LSU is nothing to sneeze at, but after that, easy going.

cincrazy
09-29-2009, 12:40 PM
Who says OSU isn't floating in mediocrity? Just because they've been to a BCS bowl for 5 straight years and constantly laying an egg in those games?

Comments like these are unbelievable. They are not "floating in mediocrity." And what games have they laid an egg in? The Florida game, and the USC game last year. THAT'S IT! What other game did they choke? LSU was clearly a better team and the only reason OSU was in that game is because the rest of the country CHOKED. Texas was a tight loss, USC this year was a tight loss, Penn State was a tight loss. They're not getting smoked off the field.

There are three teams right now that are clearly the best in college football: Florida, Bama, and Texas. Personally, I think OSU could beat any of them on a neutral site.

Everyone touts Texas as this great program so far ahead of OSU, did anyone actually WATCH that Fiesta Bowl last year? It's just absurd.

cincrazy
09-29-2009, 12:41 PM
Beating Kansas State (a 4-loss team), Notre Dame (extremely overrated and a team who shouldn't have been there anyway), and miami (needing a -3 TO margin, a VERY questionable call, and a should-be heisman winner tearing up his knee).

You conveniently fail to point out that that should-be Heisman winner was a complete non-factor in that game before getting hurt. He played the majority of the game, and the Buckeyes locked him down. That injury had nothing to do with the final outcome.

cincrazy
09-29-2009, 12:44 PM
I have no problem with OSU getting a BCS bid. They are clearly the best Big Ten team and should represent the Big Ten in the BCS. My argument is about the NC game

I don't think anyone is drinking Kool Aid. Well, some maybe, but not me ;).

I'm aware of this team's flaws, and I've been very critical of them at times. If they're sitting there with a one loss team like Bama or Florida, should they get the benefit of the doubt? Absolutely not.

All I'm saying is, and what many are saying, is that there isn't this tremendously wipe gap between OSU and the others.

It's a myth as far as I'm concerned.

traderumor
09-29-2009, 01:46 PM
Where did I say OSU fans influenced the process? Maybe some did but the folks I argue with here on RZ have no such power. That I'm sure of.


OSu fans pump up their resume to get into the NC game....then the OSU fans do not learn from their mistakes and start the process all over again.It appears to me that you are saying that OSU fans hype their team, which somehow helps them get into the NC game. Might not be what you meant, but that is what you typed.

traderumor
09-29-2009, 01:55 PM
No he doesn't.
Kansas State was the Big 12 Champion. They were 11-2 (with the OSU loss that makes 3, but we'll say 4 because that makes his case better). Coming into the game and had just beat #1 Oklahoma 35-7 the game before they played the Buckeyes.
Notre Dame was 9-2 coming into the game with their only losses being an OT loss by 3 to Michigan State and the 3 point "Bush Push" loss to USC. They were 6 points from being undefeated. That was the best Notre Dame team in recent memory and deserved to be in a BCS game.And ND, with offensive Super Genius Charlie Weiss and the super duper Quinn to Smardzija connection, were gonna wipe up the Bucks with Tressel's sweater vest. I have a panoramic picture hanging on my wall telling a different story. :)

Captain Hook
09-29-2009, 02:19 PM
Why deflect? NFL players no longer playing for tOSU have nothing to do with their current team. Just like Mark Sanchez has nothing to do with the current USC team.

For argument's sake, assuming tOSU's D had as much to do with shutting down USC as did an inexperienced Frosh, tOSU's loss now is attributed to Wells and a couple WRs playing on Sundays?

I don't buy it.


That's not at all what I was saying.My point was that USC had the same starters on the field for the entire game as they will for the rest of the season.How is it that they weren't firing on cylinders?Teams like USC and OSU have do deal with the same problem of loosing starter early to the NFL draft every year.Sometimes they are replaced with Freshman.Why is it ok to claim that some of the problems that USC had in the game was because of that, but it makes no sense if you try to say the same thing for OSU.

Hey, they won the game.I'm not saying anything other then that it shouldn't be made out that USC should have won by more and that OSU isn't even as good as what they showed on that day because the Trojans had some kind of disadvantage.

Sea Ray
09-29-2009, 02:31 PM
It appears to me that you are saying that OSU fans hype their team, which somehow helps them get into the NC game. Might not be what you meant, but that is what you typed.

I'll clear it up for you. Yes, OSU fans over hype their team but no they do not pull any special strings to get the Bucks into the NC game. It's the flawed BCS system that does that

traderumor
09-29-2009, 02:55 PM
I'll clear it up for you. Yes, OSU fans over hype their team but no they do not pull any special strings to get the Bucks into the NC game. It's the flawed BCS system that does thatThat would be the same flawed system that has kept some of the best OSU teams out of the NC game when they were one of the teams that had an upset along the way. The year they beat Jake the Snake and ASU in the Rose Bowl and the year they beat ND were NC caliber teams and they didn't get the chance because of the flawed BCS system.

Don't worry, our Congresspeople are gonna get this figured out one day.

Playadlc
09-29-2009, 03:09 PM
All this national title talk will be over after the Hoosiers beat them in Bloomington this Saturday!!! :):):)

Captain Hook
09-29-2009, 03:10 PM
All this national title talk will be over after the Hoosiers beat them in Bloomington this Saturday!!! :):):)

:laugh:

Hoosier Red
09-29-2009, 03:13 PM
So they couldn't beat a USC team that wasn't firing on all cylinders in The Horseshoe, yet they're perfectly capable of beating anyone?

This could all end up being moot if tOSU slips up and loses to Wisconsin, Purdue, Minnesota, PSU, Iowa, or Michigan. 1 loss to any of those teams, and it's bye bye National Championship thoughts.

Florida, however, has LSU, Georgia, Vanderbilt, South Carolina, Florida State and then probably the SEC Championship standing in their way.

I'd say that easily a tougher road to the NC than faces the Buckeyes.


Ahem, you are forgetting the battle they have in Bloomington this week.

BRM
09-29-2009, 03:17 PM
All this national title talk will be over after the Hoosiers beat them in Bloomington this Saturday!!! :):):)

Right on!! :thumbup:

Captain Hook
09-29-2009, 03:41 PM
Certainly OSU has a long way to go this year.It's likely that with the young team they have that a Big 10 title is the most realistic goal.I'm just saying that you shouldn't exclude them from the National Championship talk and IF they win out they will be right around that #2 ranking that would get them in the National Championship game.Indiana isn't likely to bring an end to that talk but I wish them good luck.They're going to need it.

cincrazy
09-29-2009, 05:23 PM
I'll clear it up for you. Yes, OSU fans over hype their team but no they do not pull any special strings to get the Bucks into the NC game. It's the flawed BCS system that does that

"Fan" is short for "Fanatic" you know :thumbup:.

Captain Hook
09-29-2009, 05:31 PM
I'll clear it up for you. Yes, OSU fans over hype their team but no they do not pull any special strings to get the Bucks into the NC game. It's the flawed BCS system that does that

It's not like OSU hasn't contended for a BCS title just about every year or that they loose more then 2 or 3 games more often then not.Do they ever finish outside of the top 10?Maybe OSU fans are just calling it how they see it.

Roy Tucker
09-29-2009, 05:34 PM
Tastes great, less filling.

cincrazy
09-29-2009, 06:13 PM
It's not like OSU hasn't contended for a BCS title just about every year or that they loose more then 2 or 3 games more often then not.Do they ever finish outside of the top 10?Maybe OSU fans are just calling it how they see it.

This current team has to deal with the mess left behind from the other guys, and it's unfortunate.

What do Brian Rolle, Pryor, Carter, Gibson, etc. have to do with the losses to Florida and LSU? Or even the USC game last year?

Highlifeman21
09-29-2009, 08:10 PM
The Big 10 is currrently ranked 3rd in the RPI. You consider that weak? Does that mean that there are 24 "weak" conferences and only 2 strong ones?

Of course, here comes the argument that the RPI is flawed and meaningless.

I have a feeling the Big 11 will fall down the RPI rankings by the end of the year.

IMO, the Pac 10, SEC, Big 12 and ACC are all stronger conferences than the Big 11.

There are what, 6 BCS conferences that guarantee a BCS berth?

improbus
09-29-2009, 08:48 PM
You conveniently fail to point out that that should-be Heisman winner was a complete non-factor in that game before getting hurt. He played the majority of the game, and the Buckeyes locked him down. That injury had nothing to do with the final outcome.

McGahee was wearing down the OSU defense. Everyone in the stands could see him gaining momentum. In the 2nd Half he had 43 yards, was averaging 5.9 yards per carry, and scored a touchdown. After he left they got exactly 14 yards in the ground w/ Jarrett Payton. If McGahee doesn't get hurt (and the same goes for Dorsey, who was knocked silly), things might have turned out differently.

Captain Hook
09-29-2009, 09:11 PM
I have a feeling the Big 11 will fall down the RPI rankings by the end of the year.

IMO, the Pac 10, SEC, Big 12 and ACC are all stronger conferences than the Big 11.

There are what, 6 BCS conferences that guarantee a BCS berth?

At this point conference rankings are established and will change very little until bowl season gets here.The argument will be settled then.

Last season the Pac 10 was ranked very low for the last 8 games because they struggled so much before conference play got into full swing.It wasn't until they dominated their bowl games that they proved to be a better conference.

Hoosier Red
09-29-2009, 09:15 PM
McGahee was wearing down the OSU defense. Everyone in the stands could see him gaining momentum. In the 2nd Half he had 43 yards, was averaging 5.9 yards per carry, and scored a touchdown. After he left they got exactly 14 yards in the ground w/ Jarrett Payton. If McGahee doesn't get hurt (and the same goes for Dorsey, who was knocked silly), things might have turned out differently.

Oh well, so long as things MIGHT have turned out differently they should probably play it over again to see who really won the National Championship.

improbus
09-29-2009, 09:15 PM
At this point conference rankings are established and will change very little until bowl season gets here.The argument will be settled then.

Last season the Pac 10 was ranked very low for the last 8 games because they struggled so much before conference play got into full swing.It wasn't until they dominated their bowl games that they proved to be a better conference.
Sagarin has the Big Ten 6th currently.

Captain Hook
09-29-2009, 09:27 PM
Sagarin has the Big Ten 6th currently.

There a few different rankings and they contradict each other.I don't know witch one to believe and I really don't care.Like I said, it will all be settled once the best teams from each conference play each other in bowl games.I would put the Pac 10 ahead of the Big 10 but the ACC and Big East still imo are behind them.

Highlifeman21
09-29-2009, 09:46 PM
Ahem, you are forgetting the battle they have in Bloomington this week.

My apologies.

Sea Ray
09-29-2009, 11:03 PM
It's not like OSU hasn't contended for a BCS title just about every year or that they loose more then 2 or 3 games more often then not.Do they ever finish outside of the top 10?Maybe OSU fans are just calling it how they see it.

They are calling it like they see it but it's not reality. The OSU fans were calling it like they saw it when they told me they were going to blow out Florida in the NC game and that Michigan was the #2 team in the country that year.

I'm just puzzled why they still haven't learned. How many more blowouts will it take?

jimbo
09-29-2009, 11:22 PM
The OSU fans were calling it like they saw it when they told me they were going to blow out Florida in the NC game and that Michigan was the #2 team in the country that year.

I have many Buckeye fans and do not remember one of them that predicted a blowout of Florida.


I'm just puzzled why they still haven't learned. How many more blowouts will it take?

So one blowout in one NC game and all of us Buckeye fans should have learned what exactly? This is a different season with different players. Why should one school, tOSU, be punished for eternity based on one loss?

Sea Ray
09-29-2009, 11:39 PM
I have many Buckeye fans and do not remember one of them that predicted a blowout of Florida.



So one blowout in one NC game and all of us Buckeye fans should have learned what exactly? This is a different season with different players. Why should one school, tOSU, be punished for eternity based on one loss?

One blowout? You're making my point better than I could have dreamed. Did you forget about the LSU NC game or is there some twisted way of thinking that game was close?

jimbo
09-29-2009, 11:52 PM
One blowout? You're making my point better than I could have dreamed. Did you forget about the LSU NC game or is there some twisted way of thinking that game was close?

I don't think most people would consider a 14 point loss a "blowout."

Sea Ray
09-30-2009, 12:08 AM
I don't think most people would consider a 14 point loss a "blowout."

Anybody who watched it saw OSU was badly overmatched. I do respect your honesty. You're willing to admit publically that you didn't think LSU blew out the Bucks.

I must say this said it best from ESPN:


"It was over when... LSU scored 31 answered points to turn a 10-0 deficit into a 21-point lead. From there is was a matter of running out the clock to end the season No. 1."

Captain Hook
09-30-2009, 12:19 AM
They are calling it like they see it but it's not reality. The OSU fans were calling it like they saw it when they told me they were going to blow out Florida in the NC game and that Michigan was the #2 team in the country that year.

I'm just puzzled why they still haven't learned. How many more blowouts will it take?

The last 3 years OSU has been unable to win a few big games.The Bucks have still won the Big 10 all 3 years and played in 2 National Championship games.I don't think any of us OSU fans are in denial.The simple truth is that despite the few bad losses OSU has still had very good seasons by just about any other schools standards.This year is shaping up to be the same kind of year.It's likely that OSU will be at the top of the Big 10 at seasons end along with a top 10 ranking and another trip to a BCS bowl game with an outside chance to play for another National Title.I don't think that there is any question that those are all reasonable predictions and I would guess that most OSU fans would say about the same.

So what is it that we have to learn that all of us are so unaware of?

jimbo
09-30-2009, 12:25 AM
Anybody who watched it saw OSU was badly overmatched.

It doesn't matter how much you want to spin it to help your argument, the final score was 38-24.

And I, along with even many Buckeye fans, admit they probably didn't belong there, but got there because the teams in front of them couldn't take care of business on the field leading up to the bowl season, while the Buckeyes did. It wasn't the system, as some keep claiming. You have to earn it, the group of musical top 5 teams that season kept losing to teams they shouldn't have, therefore they didn't earn the opportunity.



I must say this said it best from ESPN:

College football analysis from ESPN, brilliant. Was that a quote from Mark May, Trev Alberts?

Captain Hook
09-30-2009, 12:33 AM
Anybody who watched it saw OSU was badly overmatched. I do respect your honesty. You're willing to admit publically that you didn't think LSU blew out the Bucks.

I must say this said it best from ESPN:

Against UF we were outmatched.Against USC last year we were outmatched.Against LSU I admit that we were probably not the best team on the field that night but we could have won the game had the ball bounced our way as much as it did for LSU.

I admit that it's hard to swallow that another school could dominate the Bucks they way they were in the first 2 games mentioned but I saw it just like you did and have never denied it.Over the years it happens to all schools though.It doesn't mean that we should just give up on our team and hope we never again play against more serious competition in the future.It's too bad that OSU doesn't get more credit for scheduling a power house school every year.

cincrazy
09-30-2009, 07:40 AM
Anybody who watched it saw OSU was badly overmatched. I do respect your honesty. You're willing to admit publically that you didn't think LSU blew out the Bucks.

I must say this said it best from ESPN:

That game isn't a barometer of anything my friend. That OSU team was thrown into the title game because of a weak conference, and a weak year overall in college football. LSU was clearly the best team that year, but was hampered with injuries well into December.

The better team won that game. But the Buckeyes led by 10 early, and rallied late to at least make it seem as if they might pull it off. It wasn't a Florida-type embarrassing beatdown. The better team won.

LoganBuck
09-30-2009, 07:43 AM
I wish we could all be Tennessee.

That way OSU never would have to play in big bowl games, their high ranking recruits would be flops, they would be dominated by their rivals, and irrelevant in the national discussion. That would cool off those darn OSU fans.

Maybe Michigan would be great again, and then we could make a big deal out of how the Big Ten is such a great conference when we don't get to participate in the greatness.

I have said it over and over again. The 2006 team spent December eating at awards buffets, accepting awards, and reading about how great they were. In Glendale that year, the team spent their time partying and eating In and Out burgers. People around the team were worried, the results were typical of a team that didn't do the work. Florida can out hungry Ohio State looked like a bloated carcass that game. No other ways to cut it.

Against LSU, the system picked Ohio State in a reloading year. Yes they got beat, but it wasn't the blow out OSU haters like to paint it as, and LSU was a darn good team. A couple big boneheaded penalties, and a blown assignment on defense, and the game was over. It wasn't as big a disaster as revisionist history suggests. If you wanted to see a disaster imagine what playing USC in the Rose Bowl that year would have been, coupled with the following losses to USC.

The current offense is made up mainly of Sophomores and Freshman. Would it not be appropriate to assume that they will improve before the end of the season?

Highlifeman21
09-30-2009, 10:23 AM
The last 3 years OSU has been unable to win a few big games.The Bucks have still won the Big 10 all 3 years and played in 2 National Championship games.I don't think any of us OSU fans are in denial.The simple truth is that despite the few bad losses OSU has still had very good seasons by just about any other schools standards.This year is shaping up to be the same kind of year.It's likely that OSU will be at the top of the Big 10 at seasons end along with a top 10 ranking and another trip to a BCS bowl game with an outside chance to play for another National Title.I don't think that there is any question that those are all reasonable predictions and I would guess that most OSU fans would say about the same.

So what is it that we have to learn that all of us are so unaware of?

I'll answer the bolded question first. The BCS has exposed tOSU to be an unprepared team for big games on the big stage within the last couple of years.

tOSU's done their part to win a weak Big 11 more often than not, so b/c they've been gifted a BCS bowl berth due to playing in one of the weakest BCS conferences (the Big East is still the weakest BCS conference, IMO), tOSU then is rewarded by having to play some real competition, and as recent history has shown, they've lost pretty handily.

This next sentence will probably shock the tOSU faithful on this board.

I definitely have to give tOSU credit for scheduling marquee teams for their non-conference games. That says to me that Tressel realizes the shortcoming of his team to perform against marquee programs, so the only way to improve is to play more meaningful games against marquee teams. Unfortunately, due to the pathetic state of the Big 11, tOSU maybe only gets possibly 2-3 tough matchups from their conference annually. To consistently be an elite program (and tOSU falls just short of being an elite program as a whole, IMO), tOSU needs to improve their record under Tressel against better opponents or marquee teams.

tOSU fans should expect tOSU to win the weak Big 11 annually, but that shouldn't mean they should also expect to be included in National Championship considerations, unless other teams gift tOSU a spot in the NC b/c they lost to good opponents. I can't give credit to tOSU for being in the right place at the right time and having a NC berth fall into their laps.

traderumor
09-30-2009, 10:35 AM
I'll answer the bolded question first. The BCS has exposed tOSU to be an unprepared team for big games on the big stage within the last couple of years.

tOSU's done their part to win a weak Big 11 more often than not, so b/c they've been gifted a BCS bowl berth due to playing in one of the weakest BCS conferences (the Big East is still the weakest BCS conference, IMO), tOSU then is rewarded by having to play some real competition, and as recent history has shown, they've lost pretty handily.

This next sentence will probably shock the tOSU faithful on this board.

I definitely have to give tOSU credit for scheduling marquee teams for their non-conference games. That says to me that Tressel realizes the shortcoming of his team to perform against marquee programs, so the only way to improve is to play more meaningful games against marquee teams. Unfortunately, due to the pathetic state of the Big 11, tOSU maybe only gets possibly 2-3 tough matchups from their conference annually. To consistently be an elite program (and tOSU falls just short of being an elite program as a whole, IMO), tOSU needs to improve their record under Tressel against better opponents or marquee teams.

tOSU fans should expect tOSU to win the weak Big 11 annually, but that shouldn't mean they should also expect to be included in National Championship considerations, unless other teams gift tOSU a spot in the NC b/c they lost to good opponents. I can't give credit to tOSU for being in the right place at the right time and having a NC berth fall into their laps.Despite all the hype of other conferences, in any given year, any of the upper echelon teams are playing one tough non-conference game, maybe two if it just so happens that a former cupcake gets stacked for a year, and 2-3 tough conference games, which is the same as Ohio State. The same description you gave can be said of any of the programs that are given so much hype, such as Florida and USC, which are little more than the 90s Florida St/Miami of this decade. No major college football team in the BCS conferences are playing more than 4-5 games against evenly matched opponents.

Sea Ray
09-30-2009, 02:01 PM
So what is it that we have to learn that all of us are so unaware of?

Answer: That you're not worthy of national championship consideration.

Dominating the Big Ten and the likes of Akron and Toledo does not make you worthy of playing for the NC. Win a big Bowl game or beat a good non conference foe like Texas and I'll change my mind. Beating Indiana and Illinios doesn't do it for me.

Sea Ray
09-30-2009, 02:18 PM
I wish we could all be Tennessee.

That way OSU never would have to play in big bowl games, their high ranking recruits would be flops, they would be dominated by their rivals, and irrelevant in the national discussion. That would cool off those darn OSU fans.


Against LSU, the system picked Ohio State in a reloading year. Yes they got beat, but it wasn't the blow out OSU haters like to paint it as, and LSU was a darn good team. A couple big boneheaded penalties, and a blown assignment on defense, and the game was over. It wasn't as big a disaster as revisionist history suggests. If you wanted to see a disaster imagine what playing USC in the Rose Bowl that year would have been, coupled with the following losses to USC.



What high ranking recruits are you thinking of? Fulmer's last recruiting class was ranked in the high 30s; a big reason why he was let go.

They weren't irrelevant in the national discussion. In fact they played a big role in determining who went to the NC game. They very nearly beat LSU in the SEC Championship game that year and gave them a much better game than OSU did.

Jonathan Crompton was a 5 star recruit. Makes you wonder who decides such things.

I'm getting a huge kick out of all this reading of how OSU gave LSU a good game. Thanks :)

One tip: Any illusion of impartiality is lost when you defend OSU with words like "we" and "us" or if you have Bucks in your screenname.

Bottomline: There were a lot of teams that could have given LSU a better game that year. That's why OSU wasn't worthy of being in the NC game. In fact the previously mentioned Tenn lost to that same LSU team in the SEC championship game on an INT return for a TD late in the 4th qtr and UT was nothing special that year.

jimbo
09-30-2009, 02:41 PM
Bottomline: There were a lot of teams that could have given LSU a better game that year. That's why OSU wasn't worthy of being in the NC game.

How do you know this? Do you have some kind of magic 8 ball that tells you this? This argument is nothing but speculative and guesswork. If there were teams that could have given LSU a better game, they should have beaten the teams they had no business losing to during the regular season. There were several teams during the last couple of weeks of that season who had their chance, but flopped against bad or mediocre teams.

Even the AP poll had OSU at #1 going into the bowl season, how do you keep them out because some think they don't deserve it?

cincrazy
09-30-2009, 03:05 PM
What high ranking recruits are you thinking of? Fulmer's last recruiting class was ranked in the high 30s; a big reason why he was let go.

They weren't irrelevant in the national discussion. In fact they played a big role in determining who went to the NC game. They very nearly beat LSU in the SEC Championship game that year and gave them a much better game than OSU did.

Jonathan Crompton was a 5 star recruit. Makes you wonder who decides such things.

I'm getting a huge kick out of all this reading of how OSU gave LSU a good game. Thanks :)

One tip: Any illusion of impartiality is lost when you defend OSU with words like "we" and "us" or if you have Bucks in your screenname.

Bottomline: There were a lot of teams that could have given LSU a better game that year. That's why OSU wasn't worthy of being in the NC game. In fact the previously mentioned Tenn lost to that same LSU team in the SEC championship game on an INT return for a TD late in the 4th qtr and UT was nothing special that year.

Crompton WAS a five star recruit, correct. But he's also absolutely dreadful at the moment, and you can't discount that.

And the Vols see LSU quite a bit. They're aware of their tendencies, their flaws, their strengths.

I do recall Michigan beating Florida a few years back in a bowl game, dropping 40 some points on them. The same Michigan team that OSU held to three points.

So this can work both ways.

acredsfan
09-30-2009, 03:05 PM
I love college football because of the intense fan following teams get, and I love that is starting to happen in Cincinnati for a team that is actually in the city. The thing I don't like is seeing fans of their respective teams berating other fans because they don't see eye to eye. Listen, sometimes you just have to take a step back and realize that your team is never as great as you think they are, nor are they as bad as others think they are. Arguing over past games is pretty trivial considering how quickly the landscape of college football can change.

I'm sorry OSU fans, but your school is having a down year this year, so you're going to hear about it from people who have been waiting for this moment. Don't consider it a slight, heck it's a complment to how good the team has been in the past. UC is having another good year, so as a fan I am excited and believe we can take on anybody right now and put up a W. I'm not crazy enough to argue that UC is the best in the country right now, even if my fan instincts want to believe it. The reality is there are too many teams in college football that don't play eachother to come to a logical conclusion about which conference is better and which teams are best. You can have your opinions, but until there is a playoff system in place, it makes it hard to argue.

It's way to early to punch your ticket for a BCS bowl game, the team has a lot of games to be played. That goes for every school right now. Even talking about a national championship is crazy at this point.

Captain Hook
09-30-2009, 03:07 PM
Answer: That you're not worthy of national championship consideration.

Dominating the Big Ten and the likes of Akron and Toledo does not make you worthy of playing for the NC. Win a big Bowl game or beat a good non conference foe like Texas and I'll change my mind. Beating Indiana and Illinios doesn't do it for me.


Actually what that should really say is that by your standards they are not worthy of national championship consideration.I'm actually ok with that though and I agree that in order to gain some respect from people other then their fans they certainly need to do the things that you mention.

It sounds like to me that your problem isn't as much with OSU as it is with the system that allowed them to play for a championship in 2007 and that could potentially do the same this year.It's not OSUs fault that things work out the way they do.The current system is meant to be as fair as possible and while sometimes it's not I'm fine with playing along.I expect that LSU didn't have a problem with the system considering they lost 2 games the year they beat OSU.

An 8 team play off would be ideal.I want the best 2 teams playing for the championship as mush as anyone.I just hope that everyone understands that that kind of system would allow an unworthy OSU, an unworthy Big East team and a unworthy ACC team to be considered for the national championship game every single year.

jimbo
09-30-2009, 03:24 PM
I'm sorry OSU fans, but your school is having a down year this year.....

How can you be so definitive on this after only 4 games?

traderumor
09-30-2009, 03:34 PM
I love college football because of the intense fan following teams get, and I love that is starting to happen in Cincinnati for a team that is actually in the city. The thing I don't like is seeing fans of their respective teams berating other fans because they don't see eye to eye. Listen, sometimes you just have to take a step back and realize that your team is never as great as you think they are, nor are they as bad as others think they are. Arguing over past games is pretty trivial considering how quickly the landscape of college football can change.

I'm sorry OSU fans, but your school is having a down year this year, so you're going to hear about it from people who have been waiting for this moment. Don't consider it a slight, heck it's a complment to how good the team has been in the past. UC is having another good year, so as a fan I am excited and believe we can take on anybody right now and put up a W. I'm not crazy enough to argue that UC is the best in the country right now, even if my fan instincts want to believe it. The reality is there are too many teams in college football that don't play eachother to come to a logical conclusion about which conference is better and which teams are best. You can have your opinions, but until there is a playoff system in place, it makes it hard to argue.

It's way to early to punch your ticket for a BCS bowl game, the team has a lot of games to be played. That goes for every school right now. Even talking about a national championship is crazy at this point.So, let me get this straight. Its too early to be talking about NC considerations for anybody, yet you can tell that a team which lost in the last seconds to a top 10 team currently ranked ahead of them (regardless of the merits of that ranking) and has handled its next two games in blowout fashion is having a down year?

Sea Ray
09-30-2009, 04:08 PM
How do you know this? Do you have some kind of magic 8 ball that tells you this? This argument is nothing but speculative and guesswork.

I don't know, let's see. They played 9 SEC foes and lost to two of them. In the other 7 games, only two were by more pts than they beat OSU by (14). The rest of the SEC gave them a better game than the Bucks. Only Ole Miss and Miss St were worse blowouts than OSU. I'm not going out on a limb to say there were other teams that could have given us a closer game.

Yes it is guesswork but it's an educated guess.

Sea Ray
09-30-2009, 04:19 PM
Crompton WAS a five star recruit, correct. But he's also absolutely dreadful at the moment, and you can't discount that.

And the Vols see LSU quite a bit. They're aware of their tendencies, their flaws, their strengths.

I do recall Michigan beating Florida a few years back in a bowl game, dropping 40 some points on them. The same Michigan team that OSU held to three points.

So this can work both ways.

Crompton was a five star recruit and now he's dreadful. Where's the argument?

The Vols rarely play LSU. They are not a rotating rivalry so they play on a rotating basis about 2 times every 6 years.

Kudos to Michigan for playing an excellent game. They played their hearts out for their departing coach and they deserved to win that game

Sea Ray
09-30-2009, 04:25 PM
I'm sorry OSU fans, but your school is having a down year this year, so you're going to hear about it from people who have been waiting for this moment.

I don't agree with that. I think they're poised to have another year where they dominate the weak Big Ten.

Sea Ray
09-30-2009, 04:28 PM
Actually what that should really say is that by your standards they are not worthy of national championship consideration.I'm actually ok with that though and I agree that in order to gain some respect from people other then their fans they certainly need to do the things that you mention.

It sounds like to me that your problem isn't as much with OSU as it is with the system that allowed them to play for a championship in 2007 and that could potentially do the same this year.It's not OSUs fault that things work out the way they do.The current system is meant to be as fair as possible and while sometimes it's not I'm fine with playing along.I expect that LSU didn't have a problem with the system considering they lost 2 games the year they beat OSU.

An 8 team play off would be ideal.I want the best 2 teams playing for the championship as mush as anyone.I just hope that everyone understands that that kind of system would allow an unworthy OSU, an unworthy Big East team and a unworthy ACC team to be considered for the national championship game every single year.


If an OSU won a tournament of 8 teams then they deserve it regardless of their schedule or the Big Ten.

Sure the system is very flawed but that's another discussion. I just love bantering with people who will argue that OSU gave LSU a good game. That's fun!

jimbo
09-30-2009, 04:32 PM
I don't know, let's see. They played 9 SEC foes and lost to two of them. In the other 7 games, only two were by more pts than they beat OSU by (14). The rest of the SEC gave them a better game than the Bucks. Only Ole Miss and Miss St were worse blowouts than OSU. I'm not going out on a limb to say there were other teams that could have given us a closer game.

Yes it is guesswork but it's an educated guess.

Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as far as your educated guess, but it doesn't change the fact that those teams did not earn the opportunity to play in the NC game. As someone else stated, teams within a conference know each other and their tendencies much better than when going against out of conference opponents.

Georgia lost to a very average South Carolina.
Tennessee had 4 losses.
Florida had 4 losses, and ended up losing to Michigan.
Arkansas had 5 losses.
Ole Miss had 5 losses.
It gets worse from there.

Only one you could make an argument for deserving an NC chance would be Georgia, but that loss to SC loss loomed large after they lost their last 5 and didn't make a bowl game.

Beating the teams you're supposed to should be just as important as winning a "big" game or two.

jimbo
09-30-2009, 04:34 PM
I don't agree with that. I think they're poised to have another year where they dominate the weak Big Ten.

Now you're just baiting, so I'm thinking it's time I leave this debate.

Enjoyed the discussion though.

*BaseClogger*
09-30-2009, 05:15 PM
:lol:



Team Statistics (Final)
2007 Ohio State Football
#2 LSU vs #1 Ohio State (Jan 07, 2008 at New Orleans, La.)

Team Totals LSU OSU
NET YARDS RUSHING 152 145
NET YARDS PASSING 174 208
TOTAL OFFENSE YARDS 326 353


:lol:

OUReds
09-30-2009, 05:26 PM
One tip: Any illusion of impartiality is lost when you defend OSU with words like "we" and "us" or if you have Bucks in your screenname.


Only Ole Miss and Miss St were worse blowouts than OSU. I'm not going out on a limb to say there were other teams that could have given us a closer game.

Sea Ray
09-30-2009, 05:41 PM
Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as far as your educated guess, but it doesn't change the fact that those teams did not earn the opportunity to play in the NC game. As someone else stated, teams within a conference know each other and their tendencies much better than when going against out of conference opponents.

Georgia lost to a very average South Carolina.
Tennessee had 4 losses.
Florida had 4 losses, and ended up losing to Michigan.
Arkansas had 5 losses.
Ole Miss had 5 losses.
It gets worse from there.

Only one you could make an argument for deserving an NC chance would be Georgia, but that loss to SC loss loomed large after they lost their last 5 and didn't make a bowl game.

Beating the teams you're supposed to should be just as important as winning a "big" game or two.


You make my point beautifully 'cause your right. None of those teams deserved a shot at LSU yet they still fared better than OSU. If you ask me, if there was a tournament, I think USC probably would have won it

Sea Ray
09-30-2009, 05:43 PM
Now you're just baiting, so I'm thinking it's time I leave this debate.

Enjoyed the discussion though.

What's baiting about that? It's an honest opinion. I think OSU is very capable of running the table in the Big Ten. They've done it often. What's not to say that they'll do it again?

Roy Tucker
09-30-2009, 05:44 PM
I'm starting to think there may be some disagreement on all this. Some people like OSU. Some don't.

Gee.

Sea Ray
09-30-2009, 05:46 PM
"Only Ole Miss and Miss St were worse blowouts than OSU. I'm not going out on a limb to say there were other teams that could have given us a closer game."

Yes, OU..."us" as in us fans or those of us watching the game. What's your point?

Sea Ray
09-30-2009, 05:48 PM
I'm starting to think there may be some disagreement on all this. Some people like OSU. Some don't.

Gee.

I haven't seen anyone here dislike OSU. In fact the worst thing said about them is that they are a very good program but not worthy of a national championship. Very few are NC worthy

OUReds
09-30-2009, 07:57 PM
"Only Ole Miss and Miss St were worse blowouts than OSU. I'm not going out on a limb to say there were other teams that could have given us a closer game."

Yes, OU..."us" as in us fans or those of us watching the game. What's your point?

I just found it amusing you can dismiss OSU arguments because they are not impartial, while being an SEC shill yourself.

Sea Ray
09-30-2009, 09:23 PM
I just found it amusing you can dismiss OSU arguments because they are not impartial, while being an SEC shill yourself.

If that's where you were coming from then you were misguided seeing as "us" did not refer to LSU or the SEC.

LoganBuck
09-30-2009, 10:17 PM
If that's where you were coming from then you were misguided seeing as "us" did not refer to LSU or the SEC.

My "us" referred to fans of BigTen teams. The point was SEC fan gets all puffed out and proud and anxious to bash on Ohio State and the BigTen. When in all fairness, because you are a fan of a team in the same conference as LSU or Florida doesn't give your point any more leverage. You are living vicariously through other teams.

Oh by the way, I am more than right on the recruiting rankings from pages ago. Tennessee frittered away more top ranked recruiting talent than nearly every other team this side of Notre Dame recently, and that is a lot.

From Scout.com

2008 1 5 Star
12 4 Star recruits
8th ranked class

2007 Smaller class and only 2 4 Star Recruits
lost Casey Kelly to baseball.
Unranked nationally

2006 4 5 Star Recruits
15 4 Star Recruits
4th National

2005 Another smaller class
8 4 Star Recruits
24th National

2004 3 5 Star Recruits
13 4 Star
1st National

LoganBuck
09-30-2009, 10:46 PM
As for the OSU LSU game.

Two penalties led to LSU's first touchdown. Donald Washington late hit, and James Lauriniatis's face mask, before LSU caught Ohio State napping on the quick snap to the uncovered TE I think it was Dickson, or was it Hester? I forget. It was a blown coverage.

Two more penalties sealed the deal.

Austin Spitler's ill fated blocked punt attempt, which resulted in a roughing the kicker penalty. This was followed by Cameron Heyward's roughing the passer penalty and directly led to a score.

If Ohio State had gotten off the field on either of those drives, who knows.

Big ifs, I know.

OUReds
09-30-2009, 10:47 PM
If that's where you were coming from then you were misguided seeing as "us" did not refer to LSU or the SEC.

From the big ten prediction thread...


Don't stop there. What's your prediction vs my Vols this weekend?

I mean, are you really saying you aren't just as biased for the SEC as the OSU/Big Ten posters are for the Buckeyes? Even if you do have an OSU degree hanging on your wall?

guttle11
10-01-2009, 12:36 AM
As for the OSU LSU game.

Two penalties led to LSU's first touchdown. Donald Washington late hit, and James Lauriniatis's face mask, before LSU caught Ohio State napping on the quick snap to the uncovered TE I think it was Dickson, or was it Hester? I forget. It was a blown coverage.

Two more penalties sealed the deal.

Austin Spitler's ill fated blocked punt attempt, which resulted in a roughing the kicker penalty. This was followed by Cameron Heyward's roughing the passer penalty and directly led to a score.

If Ohio State had gotten off the field on either of those drives, who knows.

Big ifs, I know.

Not to mention a TD pass to Robiskie called back for holding that would have made it a 14-0 (or was it 14-3) lead. Instead OSU gets a FG, but LSU takes some momentum back with the stop.

LSU didn't win that game with some magical talent advantage, Tressel not being able to coach, or "SEC SPEED DUDE!!!!!1!1!". They lost because LSU played more disciplined football.

dabvu2498
10-01-2009, 12:53 AM
Not to mention a TD pass to Robiskie called back for holding that would have made it a 14-0 (or was it 14-3) lead. Instead OSU gets a FG, but LSU takes some momentum back with the stop.

LSU didn't win that game with some magical talent advantage, Tressel not being able to coach, or "SEC SPEED DUDE!!!!!1!1!". They lost because LSU played more disciplined football.

Is there not a relationship between the two items in bold? Maybe not to the hyperbolic level of Tressel "not being able to coach," but a relationship nonetheless.

guttle11
10-01-2009, 01:02 AM
Is there not a relationship between the two items in bold? Maybe not to the hyperbolic level of Tressel "not being able to coach," but a relationship nonetheless.

It's a chicken/egg argument that would never have a winner, but IMO, no. OSU is a team that virtually never beats itself with bad penalties. Undisciplined is not an adjective used to describe any team under Tressel. I mean, I would bet $100 that Tressel was doing everything in his power to keep his players focused and disciplined, there's only so much he can do. The players just made mistakes. Happens from time to time.

dabvu2498
10-01-2009, 01:17 AM
It's a chicken/egg argument that would never have a winner, but IMO, no. OSU is a team that virtually never beats itself with bad penalties. Undisciplined is not an adjective used to describe any team under Tressel. I mean, I would bet $100 that Tressel was doing everything in his power to keep his players focused and disciplined, there's only so much he can do. The players just made mistakes. Happens from time to time.

OSU has been in the top half of the Big 10 in number of penalties against the last two years.

The fact that they went 5-16 on 3rd/4th down conversions, while allowing LSU 12-19 was the real crusher in that game.

Captain Hook
10-01-2009, 01:46 AM
I would just like to know what other team in 07 was more deserving then OSU?

I looked back to help me remember how things played out that year and it was really amazing how the last few weeks of that season unfolded.Every week someone ranked in the top 2 spots lost.WV was the last team to have a chance.They had to beat Pitt. and they choked.It looked like the only team that didn't choke the last few weeks was USC and they lost 2 games earlier in the year with one of those losses coming against a 41 point underdog.

It didn't matter who played in the NC game that season.The team that lost was bound to be considered unworthy regardless.

Sea Ray
10-01-2009, 09:18 AM
My "us" referred to fans of BigTen teams. The point was SEC fan gets all puffed out and proud and anxious to bash on Ohio State and the BigTen. When in all fairness, because you are a fan of a team in the same conference as LSU or Florida doesn't give your point any more leverage. You are living vicariously through other teams.

Oh by the way, I am more than right on the recruiting rankings from pages ago. Tennessee frittered away more top ranked recruiting talent than nearly every other team this side of Notre Dame recently, and that is a lot.

From Scout.com

2008 1 5 Star
12 4 Star recruits
8th ranked class

2007 Smaller class and only 2 4 Star Recruits
lost Casey Kelly to baseball.
Unranked nationally

2006 4 5 Star Recruits
15 4 Star Recruits
4th National

2005 Another smaller class
8 4 Star Recruits
24th National

2004 3 5 Star Recruits
13 4 Star
1st National


Logan I don't even know where you referred to us or they. I referencing posts from others like Cpt Hook in bringing that up. Your dead giveaway is your title.

Two questions:

1) How am I bashing Ohio State? I've said that they're the best in the Big Ten but they're not the best in the country. Is that really bashing?

2) What's your point in bringing Tennessee's recruiting into this? What does that have to do with Ohio State? Who ever said Tennessee was lookin' good?

Sea Ray
10-01-2009, 09:23 AM
From the big ten prediction thread...



I mean, are you really saying you aren't just as biased for the SEC as the OSU/Big Ten posters are for the Buckeyes? Even if you do have an OSU degree hanging on your wall?

I am an alumnus of both OSU and UT. I think that gives me very good insight into both the Big Ten and SEC. When have I ever boasted about UT? I do root for them but I also root for the Reds/Bengals yet I know when my teams have weaknesses. I don't overhype them. If you have an example where I've overhyped UT then you have a point and please let me know.

Sea Ray
10-01-2009, 09:41 AM
I would just like to know what other team in 07 was more deserving then OSU?

I looked back to help me remember how things played out that year and it was really amazing how the last few weeks of that season unfolded.Every week someone ranked in the top 2 spots lost.WV was the last team to have a chance.They had to beat Pitt. and they choked.It looked like the only team that didn't choke the last few weeks was USC and they lost 2 games earlier in the year with one of those losses coming against a 41 point underdog.

It didn't matter who played in the NC game that season.The team that lost was bound to be considered unworthy regardless.


I would have loved to have seen LSU/USC. I think that would have been an excellent game and I think USC would have won...even though I am an SEC shrill...:cool:

Captain Hook
10-01-2009, 11:24 AM
I would have loved to have seen LSU/USC. I think that would have been an excellent game and I think USC would have won...even though I am an SEC shrill...:cool:

I understand that USC was possibly the best team that year but with all of this talk of worthiness do you really think that they belonged in the NC game that year?

Sea Ray
10-01-2009, 11:51 AM
I understand that USC was possibly the best team that year but with all of this talk of worthiness do you really think that they belonged in the NC game that year?

I think polls in college football put way too much stock into records. Since schedules vary so much from conference to conference why stack all the one loss teams above the two loss, above the three loss, etc, etc.

USC lost to Stanford because their QB got hurt and tried to play through it and ended up throwing a bunch of INTs. As of December I thought USC was one of the two best teams. For that reason I would have voted them either 1 or 2.

OUReds
10-01-2009, 12:35 PM
I am an alumnus of both OSU and UT. I think that gives me very good insight into both the Big Ten and SEC. When have I ever boasted about UT? I do root for them but I also root for the Reds/Bengals yet I know when my teams have weaknesses. I don't overhype them. If you have an example where I've overhyped UT then you have a point and please let me know.

Never that I've noticed, though that doesn't mean you are unbiased. Your post history gives just as good an indication of your views on the conferences.

The OSU fans know the football team has weaknesses also.

Sea Ray
10-01-2009, 02:15 PM
Never that I've noticed, though that doesn't mean you are unbiased. Your post history gives just as good an indication of your views on the conferences.

The OSU fans know the football team has weaknesses also.

OK, then what point were you trying to make by pulling a post I made in another forum? I'm puzzled. I've got a lot more connections to OSU than to LSU

*BaseClogger*
10-01-2009, 04:06 PM
Dear Sea Ray,

You have said several times that the 2007 tOSU/LSU Championship Game was a blowout and that Ohio State was clearly overmatched. That statement is biased. Whether you ask most reasonable college football fans or you simply look at the game's statistics, you'll find that Ohio State did indeed match up surprisingly well against LSU. Some things didn't go there way, but most Buckeye fans didn't expect that team to be playing for a National Title anyways.

That's why you are viewed as biased and a SEC shill.

Love,
BC

Sea Ray
10-01-2009, 04:46 PM
Dear Sea Ray,

You have said several times that the 2007 tOSU/LSU Championship Game was a blowout and that Ohio State was clearly overmatched. That statement is biased. Whether you ask most reasonable college football fans or you simply look at the game's statistics, you'll find that Ohio State did indeed match up surprisingly well against LSU. Some things didn't go there way, but most Buckeye fans didn't expect that team to be playing for a National Title anyways.

That's why you are viewed as biased and a SEC shill.

Love,
BC


Just because you disagree with my opinion doesn't make it biased. That's where you're wrong.

OUReds
10-01-2009, 05:22 PM
OK, then what point were you trying to make by pulling a post I made in another forum? I'm puzzled. I've got a lot more connections to OSU than to LSU

You listed two ways to recognize a biased OSU fan (in the context of the OSU-LSU championship game discussion). Having "Bucks" in their username, and referring to the team as "we" or "us".

Since you do the same thing with SEC teams, I simply enjoy the rich irony.


Just because you disagree with my opinion doesn't make it biased. That's where you're wrong.

That goes both ways. You were the one who implied the OSU fan's arguments were somehow less valid due to bias.

*BaseClogger*
10-01-2009, 06:13 PM
Just because you disagree with my opinion doesn't make it biased. That's where you're wrong.

Saying it was a close game isn't biased though--it's a fact. Numbers say so. Numbers don't lie or have feelings. They inform us. And some of us are informed by them better than others...

GAC
10-01-2009, 06:26 PM
I've been an OSU fan for over 40 years. Die hard.

And LSU did kick our butts BIG TIME in that game. It wasn't pretty.

dabvu2498
10-01-2009, 06:36 PM
Saying it was a close game isn't biased though--it's a fact. Numbers say so. Numbers don't lie or have feelings. They inform us. And some of us are informed by them better than others... Other than total offense, what numbers?

Tony_Danza
10-01-2009, 07:25 PM
Saying it was a close game isn't biased though--it's a fact. Numbers say so. Numbers don't lie or have feelings. They inform us. And some of us are informed by them better than others...

Sometimes the numbers on a piece of paper can't tell you everything. Those who have played the game know when they got their bottoms' rocked, and they can spot a beat down when they see one. They don't need to look to the stat sheet to justify that they had played a close game, they know deep down inside when they've just been manhandled. Numbers may not have feelings, but us human beings do. That's all Tony Danza has to say for now.

*BaseClogger*
10-01-2009, 07:26 PM
Other than total offense, what numbers?

Offensively Ohio State was much more productive. They averaged 8.0 yards per pass and 4.8 yards per rush, while LSU only averaged 6.4 yards per pass and 3.1 yards per rush. The main difference in the game was fluke penalties/turnovers...

*BaseClogger*
10-01-2009, 07:33 PM
Sometimes the numbers on a piece of paper can't tell you everything. Those who have played the game know when they got their bottoms' rocked, and they can spot a beat down when they see one. They don't need to look to the stat sheet to justify that they had played a close game, they know deep down inside when they've just been manhandled. Numbers may not have feelings, but us human beings do. That's all Tony Danza has to say for now.

I watched the game as Ohio State took the lead easily 10-0. LSU didn't have an answer for Chris Wells. Unfortunately, mistakes put the pressure on Todd Boeckman later in the game, but to say "LSU Routs Ohio State" like the AP headline read the next morning is silly...

Sea Ray
10-01-2009, 08:11 PM
You listed two ways to recognize a biased OSU fan (in the context of the OSU-LSU championship game discussion). Having "Bucks" in their username, and referring to the team as "we" or "us".

Since you do the same thing with SEC teams, I simply enjoy the rich irony.



That goes both ways. You were the one who implied the OSU fan's arguments were somehow less valid due to bias.


Let's recap.

Discussion begins about OSU's place in the Big Ten. I chime in that they're clearly the best in the Big Ten but not one of the top two in the nation. This enrages some OSU fans who aren't satisfied with that. Unable to defend OSU, they bring UT-Knoxville into the discussion. I'm still puzzled as to what UTK has to do with the discussion at hand.

I am amazed that there are folks who will put in writing that they thought that OSU gave LSU a good game. Then I figured out why. These were huge OSU fans because they used terms like Us, we and Bucks in their user name. I know people from all over the country and I've never had anyone but a die hard OSU fan say that the LSU game was a good game.

Then someone gets the novel idea of the "well, you are too" comeback and goes and cherrypicks a comment I made that is not in the context of this discussion nor is it about LSU or OSU; in fact it is in a completely other thread, about a team that has nothing to do with OSU, and tries to spin it as bias. :laugh:

By your way of thinking I guess OSU fans are biased towards Michigan because they're a Big Ten team. I will tell you this: my Michigan friends are sure OSU got blown out by LSU. Trust me on that one.

I can tell you're not on the debate team at OU...

Let me make a few more comments to add my body of work as an SEC shrill:

Although I do think the SEC is the #1 football conference in college football, I think they're overrated. I think Ole Miss had no business being ranked #4 in the country and I think Georgia is currently overranked.

I don't think the gap between the #1 and #2 conference is very big. I think the PAC 10 is a close 2nd and may prove to be #1 by the end of the year.

Sea Ray
10-01-2009, 08:13 PM
I've been an OSU fan for over 40 years. Die hard.

And LSU did kick our butts BIG TIME in that game. It wasn't pretty.

No GAC. You heard him. It's a fact:rolleyes:



Thanks for your candor. I greatly respect that in a person

Sea Ray
10-01-2009, 08:18 PM
Offensively Ohio State was much more productive. They averaged 8.0 yards per pass and 4.8 yards per rush, while LSU only averaged 6.4 yards per pass and 3.1 yards per rush. The main difference in the game was fluke penalties/turnovers...


When you score 31 unanswered points you don't have to put up bigger yardage numbers.

As a long suffering Bengal fan I can't tell you how many times my team won the yardage battle but lost the game. I would sure look like a putz if I came back and said "but look at our avg yards per pass/rush."

Captain Hook
10-01-2009, 08:49 PM
When you score 31 unanswered points you don't have to put up bigger yardage numbers.

As a long suffering Bengal fan I can't tell you how many times my team won the yardage battle but lost the game. I would sure look like a putz if I came back and said "but look at our avg yards per pass/rush."

I don't think his point was that OSU was the better team just because they out gained LSU.But the fact that did happen should give the impression that LSU wasn't really that much of a better team.When you turn the ball over 3 times and shot yourself in the foot 7 times for 83 yards worth of penalties your doing a pretty good job of beating yourself.Not to mention that some of those penalties came at the worse possible times and were very stupid.I'm not trying to say that it was a good game at all just that the teams were more evenly matched then they were made out to be after the score went final.

Sea Ray
10-01-2009, 09:01 PM
I don't think his point was that OSU was the better team just because they out gained LSU.But the fact that did happen should give the impression that LSU wasn't really that much of a better team.When you turn the ball over 3 times and shot yourself in the foot 7 times for 83 yards worth of penalties your doing a pretty good job of beating yourself.Not to mention that some of those penalties came at the worse possible times and were very stupid.I'm not trying to say that it was a good game at all just that the teams were more evenly matched then they were made out to be after the score went final.

Yeah I get that. His point was that since OSU outgained LSU in yardage it should not be considered a blowout. My point is that you can't go soley by yardage. If you score 31 unanswered pts, go ahead by 3 TDs and you're getting short fields due to turnovers and such, who cares what the yardage totals look like?

Tony_Danza
10-01-2009, 09:32 PM
The main difference in the game was fluke penalties/turnovers...

Well, when you turn the ball over at midfield the other team can only go as far as the endzone. Danza Out.

dabvu2498
10-01-2009, 09:57 PM
Offensively Ohio State was much more productive. They averaged 8.0 yards per pass and 4.8 yards per rush, while LSU only averaged 6.4 yards per pass and 3.1 yards per rush. The main difference in the game was fluke penalties/turnovers... If only yards per play determined winners and losers. I bet OSU won the kickoff return yardage stat as well.

LoganBuck
10-01-2009, 10:36 PM
Since you are hung up on my User name. Maybe it is time for a history lesson of "Loganbuck"

The name came from an hunting website that was run by ODNR about 10 years ago. The site is now gone. My original name was LOGANBUCKSTALKER for Logan County, and Buck Stalker explains itself. Most people that replied to me referred to me as Loganbuck. I use that name on most boards I post on or have to register for. The fact that I am a Buckeye fan has nothing to do with the name.

*BaseClogger*
10-01-2009, 11:22 PM
If only yards per play determined winners and losers. I bet OSU won the kickoff return yardage stat as well.

So it was a blowout?

*BaseClogger*
10-01-2009, 11:23 PM
Yeah I get that. His point was that since OSU outgained LSU in yardage it should not be considered a blowout. My point is that you can't go soley by yardage. If you score 31 unanswered pts, go ahead by 3 TDs and you're getting short fields due to turnovers and such, who cares what the yardage totals look like?

So it was a blowout?

*BaseClogger*
10-01-2009, 11:27 PM
I've been an OSU fan for over 40 years. Die hard.

And LSU did kick our butts BIG TIME in that game. It wasn't pretty.

We were watching different games. They certainly weren't kicking our butts passing the ball. Or running the ball. And they had no answer for Chris Wells; he had 146 yards rushing on 20 carries. So give LSU credit for our penalties I guess... :rolleyes:

OUReds
10-01-2009, 11:27 PM
Let's recap.

It's not really as complex as you make it out to be. You claim the OSU fans are biased, but you bring your own biases as an SEC fan. I think I took your comments, and understood them, in perfect context. /shrug

I suspect you know bitter, bitter Michigan fans, because most (well, many) OSU and Michigan fans I know root for the other Big Ten teams in bowls. Sometimes even for their rivals. Some even (gasp) disagree with you about the LSU-OSU game.

My days as a student at OU are long past and I was not on the debate team, but I can equally tell that you at least really, really wanted to be on the debate team in your college days. Though if you had actually been on the team I suspect you would recognize that "everyone I know agrees with me, the other guys must be biased" is not a real strong argument. You also probably wouldn't be using ad hominem attacks :)

dabvu2498
10-02-2009, 01:17 AM
So it was a blowout? Not quite. By my definition, a blowout is the spread +14 or 21, whichever comes 1st. Here's my issue with OSU fans viewing this as a close game -- it is unbecoming. It is an attitude similar to that held by fans of unsuccessful programs. It is akin to UK fans being happy that Florida only outscored them 10-7 over the last 3 quarters last week. So no, it wasn't a blowout, but let's not delude ourselves by thinking it was close or that OSU was in it til the end.

LoganBuck
10-02-2009, 06:44 AM
Not quite. By my definition, a blowout is the spread +14 or 21, whichever comes 1st. Here's my issue with OSU fans viewing this as a close game -- it is unbecoming. It is an attitude similar to that held by fans of unsuccessful programs. It is akin to UK fans being happy that Florida only outscored them 10-7 over the last 3 quarters last week. So no, it wasn't a blowout, but let's not delude ourselves by thinking it was close or that OSU was in it til the end.

No one said that either. The point is it is constantly drubbed into Ohio State that they got blown out. The point is without a couple penalties, and that game is completely different. Too argue against that point shows bias as well.

GAC
10-02-2009, 07:02 AM
We were watching different games. They certainly weren't kicking our butts passing the ball. Or running the ball. And they had no answer for Chris Wells; he had 146 yards rushing on 20 carries. So give LSU credit for our penalties I guess... :rolleyes:

They had no answer for Beanie Wells? Yes, Beanie got 65 of those 146 yards on the fourth play of the game on that TD run. A lot like when Ginn, a year earlier, got OSU off to a quick start vs Florida. He had 119 yds on 10 carries in the first half, and 27 yds on 10 carries in the 2nd half.

Now that is not a criticism of Beanie. I love Beanie. Not his fault when the opposition scores 31 unanswered points, and your running game becomes mote. Once Ohio State fell behind by three touchdowns early in the third quarter, the Buckeyes couldn't use Wells much to get them back into the game.

LSU's "answer" to Beanie Wells was being up by 3 TDs and forcing OSU to rely on Boeckman's arm.

And no doubt OSU won the 1st quarter, while LSU looked dysfunctional. But the 2nd and 3rd quarters were all LSU, and OSU was shaken big time. When were they in the game after that?

Penalties are penalties my friend. And they are the fault of the team committing them. You hit a player out of bounds, grab a face mask, rough the punter, you're gonna get penalized. And if the opposition is able to capitalize on it, then so be it. That's what good teams do.

IMO, the 2nd quarter is where OSU lost this game, and any poise (and momentum) they had. Was it an issue of making adjustments, where OSU didn't? I won't argue with that. But the fact is - LSU somehow regrouped, got woke up, whatever, and went on the attack. And it comes down to the tale of the two QBs.....

LSU QB Matt Flynn's total weren't outstanding (19/27 for 174 yds). But he made the plays, and several key throws, when he had to. Overall, even when he made mistakes, he kept his composure and managed the game well. In the 2nd quarter he went 11-15/118 yds and 2 TDs.

Todd Boeckman, when LSU turned the heat up on him - and I'm referring to Glenn Dorsey, Tyson Jackson and Kirston Pittman, who had their way against Ohio State's offensive line - pressured Boeckman relentlessly, forcing him to lose any composure as he was forced to hurry many of his throws. And I think that INT in the 2nd quarter had a HUGE effect on him. On drives in the 4th quarter he lost a fumble and threw an INT. Both because of LSU pressure.

LSU had a 31-10 lead until about one minute left in the 3rd quarter when OSU capitalized on an INT and scored, making it 31-17 going into the 4th.

Both teams scored garbage TDs in the final two minutes. The game wasn't as close as the score may try to indicate.

Hoosier Red
10-02-2009, 07:25 AM
They had no answer for Beanie Wells? Yes, Beanie got 65 of those 146 yards on the fourth play of the game on that TD run. A lot like when Ginn, a year earlier, got OSU off to a quick start vs Florida. He had 119 yds on 10 carries in the first half, and 27 yds on 10 carries in the 2nd half.

Now that is not a criticism of Beanie. I love Beanie. Not his fault when the opposition scores 31 unanswered points, and your running game becomes mote. Once Ohio State fell behind by three touchdowns early in the third quarter, the Buckeyes couldn't use Wells much to get them back into the game.

LSU's "answer" to Beanie Wells was being up by 3 TDs and forcing OSU to rely on Boeckman's arm.

And no doubt OSU won the 1st quarter, while LSU looked dysfunctional. But the 2nd and 3rd quarters were all LSU, and OSU was shaken big time. When were they in the game after that?

Penalties are penalties my friend. And they are the fault of the team committing them. You hit a player out of bounds, grab a face mask, rough the punter, you're gonna get penalized. And if the opposition is able to capitalize on it, then so be it. That's what good teams do.

IMO, the 2nd quarter is where OSU lost this game, and any poise (and momentum) they had. Was it an issue of making adjustments, where OSU didn't? I won't argue with that. But the fact is - LSU somehow regrouped, got woke up, whatever, and went on the attack. And it comes down to the tale of the two QBs.....

LSU QB Matt Flynn's total weren't outstanding (19/27 for 174 yds). But he made the plays, and several key throws, when he had to. Overall, even when he made mistakes, he kept his composure and managed the game well. In the 2nd quarter he went 11-15/118 yds and 2 TDs.

Todd Boeckman, when LSU turned the heat up on him - and I'm referring to Glenn Dorsey, Tyson Jackson and Kirston Pittman, who had their way against Ohio State's offensive line - pressured Boeckman relentlessly, forcing him to lose any composure as he was forced to hurry many of his throws. And I think that INT in the 2nd quarter had a HUGE effect on him. On drives in the 4th quarter he lost a fumble and threw an INT. Both because of LSU pressure.

LSU had a 31-10 lead until about one minute left in the 3rd quarter when OSU capitalized on an INT and scored, making it 31-17 going into the 4th.

Both teams scored garbage TDs in the final two minutes. The game wasn't as close as the score may try to indicate.

Not that any of this matters but if tOSU hadn't been blown out by Florida the year before, does anyone think the game would have been considered a rout? Usually two touchdown games aren't called routs.

LoganBuck
10-02-2009, 07:30 AM
Not that any of this matters but if tOSU hadn't been blown out by Florida the year before, does anyone think the game would have been considered a rout? Usually two touchdown games aren't called routs.

Exactly.

Sea Ray
10-02-2009, 08:34 AM
So it was a blowout?

Yes it was

Sea Ray
10-02-2009, 08:39 AM
It's not really as complex as you make it out to be. You claim the OSU fans are biased, but you bring your own biases as an SEC fan.



What evidence do you have that I am biased towards all SEC teams?

traderumor
10-02-2009, 12:53 PM
debating a football game two and a half years later? Yea, that is sure to bring some selective memory. Not sure the point of this phase of the discussion.

dabvu2498
10-02-2009, 02:14 PM
Not that any of this matters but if tOSU hadn't been blown out by Florida the year before, does anyone think the game would have been considered a rout? Usually two touchdown games aren't called routs.

dabvu2498
10-02-2009, 02:18 PM
Not that any of this matters but if tOSU hadn't been blown out by Florida the year before, does anyone think the game would have been considered a rout? Usually two touchdown games aren't called routs. But on the other hand, if the previous year's game hadn't been such a blowout then perhaps OSU fans would not have found as much solace in outgaining a team in a 2 td loss.

LoganBuck
10-02-2009, 03:45 PM
But on the other hand, if the previous year's game hadn't been such a blowout then perhaps OSU fans would not have found as much solace in outgaining a team in a 2 td loss.

There is no solace in a loss. My problem is with the nomenclature. People use words like "embarrassment", "blowout", "rout", and then go into some other anti OSU diatribe.

Ohio State fans know they lost. What they don't like is when people try to grind in the little extra bit, to try and extract that little extra pound of flesh.

Sea Ray
10-02-2009, 04:36 PM
There is no solace in a loss. My problem is with the nomenclature. People use words like "embarrassment", "blowout", "rout", and then go into some other anti OSU diatribe.

Ohio State fans know they lost. What they don't like is when people try to grind in the little extra bit, to try and extract that little extra pound of flesh.


:thumbup:

I greatly respect where you're coming from. As an OSU alum I was embarrassed and felt that OSU's performance was unacceptable

*BaseClogger*
10-02-2009, 05:25 PM
Not that any of this matters but if tOSU hadn't been blown out by Florida the year before, does anyone think the game would have been considered a rout? Usually two touchdown games aren't called routs.


There is no solace in a loss. My problem is with the nomenclature. People use words like "embarrassment", "blowout", "rout", and then go into some other anti OSU diatribe.

Ohio State fans know they lost. What they don't like is when people try to grind in the little extra bit, to try and extract that little extra pound of flesh.

Spot on, guys. That's exactly the way I feel too...

Tony_Danza
10-02-2009, 05:57 PM
Spot on, guys. That's exactly the way I feel too...

That's how Tony Danza is feeling right now.

improbus
10-03-2009, 11:48 AM
I'm not sure that the backlash is exclusively against OSU, but it is certainly against the Big Ten and Notre Dame (call it "Midwest Football"). Midwest Football has great fans and they travel exceedingly well and so they get into bowl games that are oftentimes above their heads.

Here is the other thing that is very underrated about Midwest Football. Because we have bad weather and a bad economy there are Midwest Football Fans everywhere (the same goes for the Browns and Steelers). How many Ohio State fan retirees live in Florida or the Carolinas?

Think about it this way. Why doesn't Oklahoma get the same treatment that OSU does? Look at there big losses in big games lately.
Florida - 14-24 (very similar to OSU-LSU)
West Virginia 28-48
Texas (2007) 10-28
Boise State 42-43
Texas (2005) 12-45
So, why doesn't Oklahoma have the same complaints made about them? Well, do you know any Oklahoma fans? Are there many Oklahoma fans outside of Oklahoma? Not nearly to the same level that you have OSU, Notre Dame, PSU, and Michigan fans who live in the South or West.

traderumor
10-03-2009, 03:44 PM
:thumbup:

I greatly respect where you're coming from. As an OSU alum I was embarrassed and felt that OSU's performance was unacceptableA fan "embarrassed" over his team's performance lacks perspective. It isn't like we do anything but watch and comment.

Captain Hook
10-03-2009, 04:17 PM
A fan "embarrassed" over his team's performance lacks perspective. It isn't like we do anything but watch and comment.

Some people love their teams.Maybe that's a bit much but hey, we all need a little something to attach ourselves to if only to relax and distract us from our everyday problems and challenges that life brings to every one.To say that all we do is watch and comment is incorrect.Sure, our families and jobs are much more important but our teams we pull for are a very big part of our lives.I would say that just because someone would be a little embarrassed over their teams failure wouldn't mean they lack perspective.Although I imagine that there are some extreme cases where you would be right.But I don't think that's what's going on here.

LoganBuck
10-03-2009, 09:24 PM
Some people love their teams.Maybe that's a bit much but hey, we all need a little something to attach ourselves to if only to relax and distract us from our everyday problems and challenges that life brings to every one.To say that all we do is watch and comment is incorrect.Sure, our families and jobs are much more important but our teams we pull for are a very big part of our lives.I would say that just because someone would be a little embarrassed over their teams failure wouldn't mean they lack perspective.Although I imagine that there are some extreme cases where you would be right.But I don't think that's what's going on here.

It would be nice if the Ohio pro teams would do something to draw our affections as well. I hate when you say something about the Reds, and people that you know are sports fans, say something like "I hate baseball". Everyone seems to have an opinion on college football.

traderumor
10-04-2009, 05:33 PM
Some people love their teams.Maybe that's a bit much but hey, we all need a little something to attach ourselves to if only to relax and distract us from our everyday problems and challenges that life brings to every one.To say that all we do is watch and comment is incorrect.Sure, our families and jobs are much more important but our teams we pull for are a very big part of our lives.I would say that just because someone would be a little embarrassed over their teams failure wouldn't mean they lack perspective.Although I imagine that there are some extreme cases where you would be right.But I don't think that's what's going on here.I love my teams, but vicariously. They cannot embarrass me because I'm not responsible for the results. I did not pick them with a conscious decision, it was something that developed subconsciously. So, it would be irrational for me to be embarrassed at their performance. I think that is universally true of being a fan.

GAC
10-04-2009, 07:31 PM
Not that any of this matters but if tOSU hadn't been blown out by Florida the year before, does anyone think the game would have been considered a rout? Usually two touchdown games aren't called routs.

Very valid point. And I've never considered the OSU-LSU game a rout. When I say we got our butts kicked, I am not referring to the final score, because final scores can be deceptive as to what was going on on that field and during the game. Other then that 1st quarter, which went OSU's way, LSU - and I'm referring to their defensive front - manhandled us pretty darn good the rest of the game. It was 38-17 at one stage, with OSU scoring a "meaningless" TD at the very end of the game to make it closer at 38-24.

Sea Ray
10-05-2009, 09:17 AM
I love my teams, but vicariously. They cannot embarrass me because I'm not responsible for the results. I did not pick them with a conscious decision, it was something that developed subconsciously. So, it would be irrational for me to be embarrassed at their performance. I think that is universally true of being a fan.

I feel a little differently since I actually attended the school(s)

traderumor
10-05-2009, 10:04 AM
I feel a little differently since I actually attended the school(s)I am an OSU alum.

Sea Ray
10-05-2009, 10:39 AM
I am an OSU alum.

I'm sure there are tons of alums around. The school is that big. I was only speaking for myself

traderumor
10-05-2009, 12:00 PM
I'm sure there are tons of alums around. The school is that big. I was only speaking for myselfBut I understand you to be saying that your embarrassment came from attending the school(s). So did I, but I'm not embarrassed because the football team of a school I attended loses a game in whatever fashion, and I graduated from the school. Did your face get red when the OSU baseball team had a record setting defeat in the College World Series this spring?

I know this is probably falling under the category of pet peeve, but I really do not understand why someone not directly involved with a sports team claims embarrassment when the team performs poorly.

Spring~Fields
10-05-2009, 12:21 PM
I love my teams, but vicariously. They cannot embarrass me because I'm not responsible for the results. I did not pick them with a conscious decision, it was something that developed subconsciously. So, it would be irrational for me to be embarrassed at their performance. I think that is universally true of being a fan.


I did not pick them with a conscious decision, it was something that developed subconsciously.
Can you explain the dynamics and inner workings behind that assertion?

I find that as interesting when most in the field of thought, and thinking declare that a person or mind does make a conscious decision to think or feel whatever they experience or perceive. Making them totally responsible for such. Especially considering to make the conscious choice to experience through another or a team by imagining rather than first hand, which is vicariously.


They cannot embarrass me because I'm not responsible for the results.

Do you experience discomfort or disappointment when their performance and outcomes are less than you vicariously wanted for you through them? Even though you are not responsible for the results? Do you experience their loss or lack in contrast or counter to desired performance as if you have just experienced a loss or lack yourself?

Would that not be irrational to experience disappointment, chagrin or discomfort? Is that not a conscious choice? Who chooses the thought that triggers the feeling, rational or irrational?

What is the root difference in mind between embarrassment, disappointment or summed up as feelings of discomfort? How can one feeling that comes from thought be anymore rational or irrational than the other? Even though one recognizes, even declares, "I'm not responsible for the results" ?

traderumor
10-05-2009, 12:41 PM
Can you explain the dynamics and inner workings behind that assertion?

I find that as interesting when most in the field of thought, and thinking declare that a person or mind does make a conscious decision to think or feel whatever they experience or perceive. Making them totally responsible for such. Especially considering to make the conscious choice to experience through another or a team by imagining rather than first hand, which is vicariously.



Do you experience discomfort or disappointment when their performance and outcomes are less than you vicariously wanted for you through them? Even though you are not responsible for the results? Do you experience their loss or lack in contrast or counter to desired performance as if you have just experienced a loss or lack yourself?

Would that not be irrational to experience disappointment, chagrin or discomfort? Is that not a conscious choice? Who chooses the thought that triggers the feeling, rational or irrational?

What is the root difference in mind between embarrassment, disappointment or summed up as feelings of discomfort? How can one feeling that comes from thought be anymore rational or irrational than the other? Even though one recognizes, even declares, "I'm not responsible for the results" ?
I was approx. 7-8 when I "picked" my teams. I'm sure there was a decision process, at whatever level a kid decides such a thing. I would liken it to someone claiming that they rationally chose their favorite color. My favorite color is blue. Why? No idea, just always been a favorite color. That is what I am saying.

An emotion and resultant action is rational because it was a feeling from thought? "I thought it through, and I felt rage, therefore I murdered." Is that rational?

Sea Ray
10-05-2009, 02:02 PM
But I understand you to be saying that your embarrassment came from attending the school(s). So did I, but I'm not embarrassed because the football team of a school I attended loses a game in whatever fashion, and I graduated from the school. Did your face get red when the OSU baseball team had a record setting defeat in the College World Series this spring?

I know this is probably falling under the category of pet peeve, but I really do not understand why someone not directly involved with a sports team claims embarrassment when the team performs poorly.

I feel like my school is respresenting me just like the Reds are representing my city because they have Cincinnati on their chest. I doubt many people saw or knew about the OSU baseball defeat so there's very little embarrassment factor there.

It's more fun to wear your gear if your team wins.


You're right, we're not directly involved with the teams but as an alum you can voice your displeasure. I'm sure you've heard of head coaches getting canned because alums wanted him out.

Hoosier Red
10-05-2009, 03:06 PM
I feel like my school is respresenting me just like the Reds are representing my city because they have Cincinnati on their chest. I doubt many people saw or knew about the OSU baseball defeat so there's very little embarrassment factor there.

It's more fun to wear your gear if your team wins.


You're right, we're not directly involved with the teams but as an alum you can voice your displeasure. I'm sure you've heard of head coaches getting canned because alums wanted him out.

Not just alums, but alums who donate big bucks. To be perfectly honest, alums who donate large sums of money(or at least large enough to hold sway with athletic departments,) could probably be accused of not thinking rationally.

You're right it is more fun when "your" team wins, whether its an alma mater, or a professional team. But like Traderumor I'm not embarrassed because my team gets beat around like rented mules, all I ask is that the student-athlete's represent the university well. The final score rarely has anything to do with that.

bucksfan2
10-05-2009, 03:20 PM
Not just alums, but alums who donate big bucks. To be perfectly honest, alums who donate large sums of money(or at least large enough to hold sway with athletic departments,) could probably be accused of not thinking rationally.

You're right it is more fun when "your" team wins, whether its an alma mater, or a professional team. But like Traderumor I'm not embarrassed because my team gets beat around like rented mules, all I ask is that the student-athlete's represent the university well. The final score rarely has anything to do with that.

I agree completely. As an OSU grad I care about what happens on the field but temper my exploitations because I didn't do one single thing that would help the team win or lose. Sure I am disappointed if they lose but I get over it. It is my alma mater so I do feel a little more connection with the program than say UC, but still the only association I have with the team the OSU diploma hanging on my wall.

traderumor
10-05-2009, 04:01 PM
Not just alums, but alums who donate big bucks. To be perfectly honest, alums who donate large sums of money(or at least large enough to hold sway with athletic departments,) could probably be accused of not thinking rationally.

You're right it is more fun when "your" team wins, whether its an alma mater, or a professional team. But like Traderumor I'm not embarrassed because my team gets beat around like rented mules, all I ask is that the student-athlete's represent the university well. The final score rarely has anything to do with that.So, you weren't embarrassed when your coach calls timeout with :06 for a "morale" TD? ;)

Hoosier Red
10-05-2009, 04:41 PM
So, you weren't embarrassed when your coach calls timeout with :06 for a "morale" TD? ;)

Heck no. In fact I was a big fan of doing it to be honest. THey did something similar in the Insight Bowl a few years ago, scoring on the last play to make the score more respectable.

As a guy who has watched teams quit when the going gets rough under Cam Cameron and Gerry Dinardo, I can appreciate that this team doesn't quit playing hard. They're generally outclassed and out coached but they play hard for Bill Lynch.

bucksfan2
10-05-2009, 04:49 PM
Heck no. In fact I was a big fan of doing it to be honest. THey did something similar in the Insight Bowl a few years ago, scoring on the last play to make the score more respectable.

As a guy who has watched teams quit when the going gets rough under Cam Cameron and Gerry Dinardo, I can appreciate that this team doesn't quit playing hard. They're generally outclassed and out coached but they play hard for Bill Lynch.

In college I really don't mind in the pros I would have a problem with it. To be honest if the game was basically over and the team wanted to score a morale TD I would allow them to. The only issue I have with the call is if someone gets injured during the play.

traderumor
10-05-2009, 05:00 PM
Heck no. In fact I was a big fan of doing it to be honest. THey did something similar in the Insight Bowl a few years ago, scoring on the last play to make the score more respectable.

As a guy who has watched teams quit when the going gets rough under Cam Cameron and Gerry Dinardo, I can appreciate that this team doesn't quit playing hard. They're generally outclassed and out coached but they play hard for Bill Lynch.

The way I see it from the "morale" standpoint is that if I am trying to keep a culture of the football team giving folks something to do until bball starts, then yea, I call timeout and slap fives because we scored---whoopeee.

If I'm trying to show the boys how we have made progress (Michigan game) but how far we have to go still (OSU), I let the clock run out and explain why at practice or in the film session. As many mistakes as they made that allowed the final score to be meaningless, I would not have rewarded them.

Hoosier Red
10-05-2009, 05:12 PM
I think there are 60 minutes in the football game. You earn whatever the scoreboard says you earned at the end of 60 minutes.

I'm not concerned with showing them how far they have to go to get to tOSU's level, the last 21years have done a fine job of that thanks, I want them to go out feeling good about whatever they could accomplish and knowing they won't play anyone as good as tOSU again this season.

And just like the 15 hop single that squeeks past the shortstop goes into the scorebook as a solid line drive to left, Matt Ernest will always remember his first touchdown, and it will probably be remembered as important as he wants it to be.

He may never get another one, but he'll remember he scored the touchdown against tOSU that's for sure.


One last thing that's bugged me from an Indiana fan response, but fans acting like IU played poorly because of a few turnovers and some penalties. tOSU was going to win that game against the best IU could offer, and the worst IU could offer. IU played okay, got beat pretty bad, and now gets to move on. I don't see how anyone is dissapointed in that.

BuckeyeRed27
10-05-2009, 05:47 PM
I think there are 60 minutes in the football game. You earn whatever the scoreboard says you earned at the end of 60 minutes.

I'm not concerned with showing them how far they have to go to get to tOSU's level, the last 21years have done a fine job of that thanks, I want them to go out feeling good about whatever they could accomplish and knowing they won't play anyone as good as tOSU again this season.

And just like the 15 hop single that squeeks past the shortstop goes into the scorebook as a solid line drive to left, Matt Ernest will always remember his first touchdown, and it will probably be remembered as important as he wants it to be.

He may never get another one, but he'll remember he scored the touchdown against tOSU that's for sure.


One last thing that's bugged me from an Indiana fan response, but fans acting like IU played poorly because of a few turnovers and some penalties. tOSU was going to win that game against the best IU could offer, and the worst IU could offer. IU played okay, got beat pretty bad, and now gets to move on. I don't see how anyone is dissapointed in that.


I had no problem with Indiana going for it. I think this whole concept of taking your foot off the gas is generally stupid. Everyone showed up to play football so play football. The game never stops when one team is comfortably ahead so why should they stop doing what they did to get them the lead. But I don't care if a team that is way ahead keeps passing (although its dumb because you stop the clock) or a team that is way behind does what IU did Saturday.

I suppose the argument is that it is bad "sportsmanship". Having played a lot of organized sports I would much rather just have a team keep kicking my butt then lay off and play possum with me. At least when they are kicking my butt they are respecting the game. Once they stop they are just disrespecting my team.

Captain Hook
10-05-2009, 06:15 PM
I think there are 60 minutes in the football game. You earn whatever the scoreboard says you earned at the end of 60 minutes.

I'm not concerned with showing them how far they have to go to get to tOSU's level, the last 21years have done a fine job of that thanks, I want them to go out feeling good about whatever they could accomplish and knowing they won't play anyone as good as tOSU again this season.

And just like the 15 hop single that squeeks past the shortstop goes into the scorebook as a solid line drive to left, Matt Ernest will always remember his first touchdown, and it will probably be remembered as important as he wants it to be.

He may never get another one, but he'll remember he scored the touchdown against tOSU that's for sure.


One last thing that's bugged me from an Indiana fan response, but fans acting like IU played poorly because of a few turnovers and some penalties. tOSU was going to win that game against the best IU could offer, and the worst IU could offer. IU played okay, got beat pretty bad, and now gets to move on. I don't see how anyone is dissapointed in that.

For some reason it seemed like Tressel was bent on really running the score up.IU did a decent job of not allowing it to happen.33-14 could have easily ended up being 55-0 had IU laid down.They probably won't play a better team the rest of the year and should be proud that they played a almost even second half against the Bucks.

LoganBuck
10-05-2009, 09:27 PM
For some reason it seemed like Tressel was bent on really running the score up.IU did a decent job of not allowing it to happen.33-14 could have easily ended up being 55-0 had IU laid down.They probably won't play a better team the rest of the year and should be proud that they played a almost even second half against the Bucks.

I guess I didn't see it that way. I saw an OSU team that played pretty sloppy. Their wasn't anything crisp or clean about that Ohio State offensive performance. Pryor was off all night, and I think Tressel was trying to get one crisp well executed drive together. It failed. Notice that Bauserman was the one who fumbled that ball when OSU got the ball back late in the game. Tressel had called off the dogs at that point. I did think that the shot of Tressel standing there waiting for the last play to run, showed him as quite annoyed. It will be interesting when Indiana comes to Columbus next year to see how Tressel took it. Bill Lynch doesn't want to end up on the Ron Zook list.

gonelong
10-06-2009, 11:44 AM
So, you weren't embarrassed when your coach calls timeout with :06 for a "morale" TD? ;)

In college, that's an opportunity to gain some experience for your guys, and IMO they'd have been foolish not to take. You only have them for a few years, and only for 12 games a year. IMO, that play is valuable if you put it to good use. Plus, you still have to execute to get it.

In the Pro's you only do that if you can cover the spread. :)

GL

traderumor
10-06-2009, 02:35 PM
In college, that's an opportunity to gain some experience for your guys, and IMO they'd have been foolish not to take. You only have them for a few years, and only for 12 games a year. IMO, that play is valuable if you put it to good use. Plus, you still have to execute to get it.

In the Pro's you only do that if you can cover the spread. :)

GLAgree that they gained some experience. The experience I say they gained is "hey guys, we're just glad to be here. We scored two TDs against the mighty Buckeyes! Now, let's start working toward the big Purdue game, and then its basketball season." That's fine, every conference needs patsies.

Hoosier Red
10-06-2009, 04:39 PM
Seriously, you're making this an issue?

What exactly is gained by letting the clock run out other than people getting out onto SR 46 5 minutes sooner?

How would it benefit Indiana to do that?
What gain would Indiana make by losing 33-7(with dignity I suppose :rolleyes:) as opposed to 33-14? In my view, that's exactly the wrong message to send. The game's 60 minutes long, play to the last whistle, if we have a chance to score, we're going to do it.

My guess is, if someone needs to be worried about Tressel being annoyed at them, it's not the coach on the opposing sidelines, but rather his own players who fumbled the ball at the 40 and let Indiana drive the 35 yards to get down to that point and eventually score.

cincrazy
10-06-2009, 06:26 PM
Seriously, you're making this an issue?

What exactly is gained by letting the clock run out other than people getting out onto SR 46 5 minutes sooner?

How would it benefit Indiana to do that?
What gain would Indiana make by losing 33-7(with dignity I suppose :rolleyes:) as opposed to 33-14? In my view, that's exactly the wrong message to send. The game's 60 minutes long, play to the last whistle, if we have a chance to score, we're going to do it.

My guess is, if someone needs to be worried about Tressel being annoyed at them, it's not the coach on the opposing sidelines, but rather his own players who fumbled the ball at the 40 and let Indiana drive the 35 yards to get down to that point and eventually score.

Agree completely with youl. No reason for Indiana to quit playing there.

LoganBuck
10-06-2009, 09:15 PM
Agree completely with youl. No reason for Indiana to quit playing there.

It wasn't the scoring that is the issue. It was the timeout. It isn't a huge issue just an annoyance. Don't annoy the vest. Indiana has a very long way to go to get on the Ron Zook list.

traderumor
10-07-2009, 11:24 AM
Seriously, you're making this an issue?

What exactly is gained by letting the clock run out other than people getting out onto SR 46 5 minutes sooner?

How would it benefit Indiana to do that?
What gain would Indiana make by losing 33-7(with dignity I suppose :rolleyes:) as opposed to 33-14? In my view, that's exactly the wrong message to send. The game's 60 minutes long, play to the last whistle, if we have a chance to score, we're going to do it.

My guess is, if someone needs to be worried about Tressel being annoyed at them, it's not the coach on the opposing sidelines, but rather his own players who fumbled the ball at the 40 and let Indiana drive the 35 yards to get down to that point and eventually score.Not an issue, just pointing out cheesiness and a losing mentality in a program.

Unassisted
10-07-2009, 01:01 PM
The final score matters to poll voters who didn't bother to watch or read about the game. Coaches probably care about that more than they let on publicly.

Roy Tucker
10-07-2009, 01:17 PM
Sorry to put this in a UC note, but wasn't Toledo the home team in that OSU game? The game shows as a home game for UT. Did they move the game or did OSU?

Sea Ray
10-07-2009, 02:18 PM
Sorry to put this in a UC note, but wasn't Toledo the home team in that OSU game? The game shows as a home game for UT. Did they move the game or did OSU?

Technically Toledo was the home team but it was played in Cleveland

cincrazy
10-08-2009, 09:02 AM
Not an issue, just pointing out cheesiness and a losing mentality in a program.

Come on now, that's a bit of a cheap shot. I don't think we should be looking down on anyone with our big game track record the last few years.

I don't have a problem with the timeout. They're working on some things, they're trying to improve, and they should use the entire 60 minutes against Ohio State to do so.

If scoring that touchdown against OSU in the final minutes can lead to some confidence in the next game, why wouldn't they make a strong effort to go for it?

Sea Ray
10-08-2009, 09:34 AM
Come on now, that's a bit of a cheap shot. I don't think we should be looking down on anyone with our big game track record the last few years.



You don't get it. OSU's big game track record isn't that bad. It's just been blown up by the media.

BuckeyeRed27
10-08-2009, 11:11 AM
You don't get it. OSU's big game track record isn't that bad. It's just been blown up by the media.

Speaking of cheap shots....

Sea Ray
10-08-2009, 12:18 PM
Speaking of cheap shots....

This is what I'm referring to:


Unfortunately, mistakes put the pressure on Todd Boeckman later in the game, but to say "LSU Routs Ohio State" like the AP headline read the next morning is silly...

What are you referring to?

*BaseClogger*
10-08-2009, 12:53 PM
:laugh:

Gee whiz that's exactly what I was saying... ;)

traderumor
10-08-2009, 02:16 PM
Come on now, that's a bit of a cheap shot. I don't think we should be looking down on anyone with our big game track record the last few years.

I don't have a problem with the timeout. They're working on some things, they're trying to improve, and they should use the entire 60 minutes against Ohio State to do so.

If scoring that touchdown against OSU in the final minutes can lead to some confidence in the next game, why wouldn't they make a strong effort to go for it?You have a different opinion, I thought it was cheesy and a sign of a losing mentality in a program. It wasn't a statement of superiority, in no way a comparison to Ohio State, but the merits of going for it there considering the context and what type of message I see it sending regarding what the UI football program is all about. I did not say "look at OSU as the model of a winning program and emulate." You have read all of that into it based on knowing that I am an OSU fan, which really isn't fair.

Hoosier Red
10-08-2009, 02:54 PM
You have a different opinion, I thought it was cheesy and a sign of a losing mentality in a program. It wasn't a statement of superiority, in no way a comparison to Ohio State, but the merits of going for it there considering the context and what type of message I see it sending regarding what the UI football program is all about. I did not say "look at OSU as the model of a winning program and emulate." You have read all of that into it based on knowing that I am an OSU fan, which really isn't fair.

I'm curious, how is being satisfied with losing 33-7 a better message than calling time out and going for a touchdown.
I guess I don't see how that's a sign of a losing program and trust me I think I'd know a lot more about signs of a losing program than you would.

Losing 62-10 to an awful Purdue team, that's a sign of a losing program.
Having a losing record to every team in the Big 11,(Yes, that includes Northwestern) that's a sign of a losing program.

I guess I don't understand why you wouldn't try to score as many points as possible.



Did you have tOSU minus 19 1/2, in that case I can see your anger.

traderumor
10-08-2009, 03:28 PM
I'm curious, how is being satisfied with losing 33-7 a better message than calling time out and going for a touchdown.
I guess I don't see how that's a sign of a losing program and trust me I think I'd know a lot more about signs of a losing program than you would.

Losing 62-10 to an awful Purdue team, that's a sign of a losing program.
Having a losing record to every team in the Big 11,(Yes, that includes Northwestern) that's a sign of a losing program.

I guess I don't understand why you wouldn't try to score as many points as possible.



Did you have tOSU minus 19 1/2, in that case I can see your anger.

I explained my reasoning in an earlier post. I am a Bengals and Reds fan, so they certainly have given me some experience with losing. But, I don't know why being a fan of a successful program makes one unqualified to take note of why another program might be a perpetual loser--sort of like the counterfeit money principal, whereby you recognize a counterfeit by being familiar with the real thing.

One thing I note is that you are looking to the past to explain IU's weak football program, while I was looking at the current regime, who seemed quite satisfied with getting that last score in with all the congrats they were giving each other. That doesn't look like someone who is saying "we're gonna forget the past and I'm gonna build something."

cincrazy
10-08-2009, 06:45 PM
You have a different opinion, I thought it was cheesy and a sign of a losing mentality in a program. It wasn't a statement of superiority, in no way a comparison to Ohio State, but the merits of going for it there considering the context and what type of message I see it sending regarding what the UI football program is all about. I did not say "look at OSU as the model of a winning program and emulate." You have read all of that into it based on knowing that I am an OSU fan, which really isn't fair.

Haha, no, just a misunderstanding my friend. I'm as big of an OSU fan as you're going to find, so I certainly wasn't criticizing you for that :).

Like you said, we just disagree. I don't have a problem with Indiana playing the game and trying to score. I don't think it's anything to get upset about really, it's not the same as Meyer burning timeouts with a 100 point lead against Georgia.

traderumor
10-09-2009, 09:18 AM
Haha, no, just a misunderstanding my friend. I'm as big of an OSU fan as you're going to find, so I certainly wasn't criticizing you for that :).

Like you said, we just disagree. I don't have a problem with Indiana playing the game and trying to score. I don't think it's anything to get upset about really, it's not the same as Meyer burning timeouts with a 100 point lead against Georgia.I still need to clarify. I think you see my comments as a cheap shot because I am an OSU fan, but my comments were not comparing OSU to IU, but identifying a program with a losing mentality. My experience with recognizing a winning program's mentality is shaped in part by following OSU, but not entirely, so that is why I said you unfairly used your knowledge of my status as a Buckeye fan.

bucksfan2
10-09-2009, 09:23 AM
Thoughts on OSU Wisconsin????

Wisc. is undefeated but hasn't played anyone yet. Clay scares me, but that is about it. I was out of the country so I didn't get to see OSU's last 2 games.

traderumor
10-09-2009, 10:26 AM
Wisconsin is OSU's kryptonite under Tress, esp at the Shoe. I'll go out on a limb and predict a sloppy win ;)

BuckeyeRed27
10-09-2009, 11:32 AM
OSU will stack the box and make Wisco pass which I don't think they can do effectively. As long as they can keep Clay in check they will wear them out and win something like 31-10.

LoganBuck
10-09-2009, 01:51 PM
24-20 Buckeyes

John Clay goes nuts. Wisconsin can't stop Pryor. Sloppiness ensues. Both teams play field position. Game ends, fans of SEC criticize game as being boring.

Far out prediction, John Clay runs roughshod over an SEC defense in Citrus or Outback Bowl.

Did I mention that I think John Clay is the best running back in the country?

Captain Hook
10-09-2009, 03:22 PM
24-20 Buckeyes

John Clay goes nuts. Wisconsin can't stop Pryor. Sloppiness ensues. Both teams play field position. Game ends, fans of SEC criticize game as being boring.

Far out prediction, John Clay runs roughshod over an SEC defense in Citrus or Outback Bowl.

Did I mention that I think John Clay is the best running back in the country?

That's not really that far out of a prediction.Other then OSU big 10 teams do ok against SEC teams in bowl games.

LoganBuck
10-09-2009, 08:39 PM
That's not really that far out of a prediction.Other then OSU big 10 teams do ok against SEC teams in bowl games.

I meant number of days, when I said far out.

GAC
10-11-2009, 10:02 AM
My brother and I were at the OSU-Wisconsin game yesterday. Had a blast tail-gating and then at the game.

Here's a link to pics throughout the day.....

http://s234.photobucket.com/albums/ee37/GAC1956/OSU-Wisconsin%20Game%20Oct%2010%202009/

Our observations of OSU - that I'd gamble a vast majority of the crowd there would agree with.....

OSU's offense is in BIG trouble. Completely predictable and lacking in inventiveness. Now whether one wants to blame it on Tressel and the coaching staff's offensive scheme, or Terrel Pryor, you'd get very little disagreement that ALL say they are contributing to the overall problem.

But Pryor looked simply confused and lost out there yesterday. He made numerous mental mistakes and bad decisions. He had open receivers on numerous occasions, and a couple, IMO and that of the crowd, would have been big plays for TDs. Whether he simply didn't see them, or checked off, that I don't know. But there was a lot of groaning going on in the stadium. The kid was throwing the ball in the ground on short slant routes.

In my section, the chant was not "O-HI-O", but was changed to "OH @#$@ NO!" :lol:

The only decent drive Pryor really engineered was in the last 2 minutes of the 2nd quarter where he threw a TD to regain the lead going into halftime.

Do you realize that Pryor didn't even make his first appearance on the field in the 2nd half until there was under 2 minutes left in the 3rd quarter? Yet we scored 14 pts. Amazing. The crowd was yelling at our offense - "Hurry up and do your 3 and out so we can get our defense back on the field and score some points!"

Defense and special teams scored 21 of our 31 points.

IMO, we are facing the same situation, with Pryor, that we had last year.... he has not yet proven he can pass the ball with much success and consistency. So teams - like Wisconsin yesterday - stack the line to stop the run, and make Pryor beat us with his arm (if he can).

Total yds.... Wisconsin 368 OSU 184

And here is what is really sick - time of possession Wisconsin 42:47 OSU 17:13.

And listening to Tressel's post-game excuses was sickening.

OSU MAY win the Big 10 - though Iowa is looking good - but Buckeye fans are due for another disappointing Bowl game loss against a marquee team when looking currently at this offense.

jimbo
10-11-2009, 11:58 AM
I can't argue that there are problems right now with the offense, but I think it lies mostly within the fact that the offense is young and inexperienced. Last year, Pryor had the likes of Wells, Robiskie, and Hartline surrounding him, this year inexperience.

This is why I think Tressel's offense looks so "conservative." He is trying to minimize mistakes. I think it's safe to say that Pryor has the arm, but he has to get better with consistency and decision making. Hopefully, that will come over time, along with confidence.

Thankfully, this is one of Tressel's best defenses, which is what's going to win ballgames this season. It doesn't always matter how you win, but as long as you win. And I'm holding out hope for a bowl win this year. Hopefully, this offense improves through the season, and the defense is good enough to always keep you in the game.

cincrazy
10-11-2009, 01:26 PM
I can't argue that there are problems right now with the offense, but I think it lies mostly within the fact that the offense is young and inexperienced. Last year, Pryor had the likes of Wells, Robiskie, and Hartline surrounding him, this year inexperience.

This is why I think Tressel's offense looks so "conservative." He is trying to minimize mistakes. I think it's safe to say that Pryor has the arm, but he has to get better with consistency and decision making. Hopefully, that will come over time, along with confidence.

Thankfully, this is one of Tressel's best defenses, which is what's going to win ballgames this season. It doesn't always matter how you win, but as long as you win. And I'm holding out hope for a bowl win this year. Hopefully, this offense improves through the season, and the defense is good enough to always keep you in the game.

I don't know if I can agree that Pryor has the arm.

He's just a bad QB right now. They're trying to shove a square peg into a round hole, and it's not working. If he keeps playing like this, sooner or later you look somewhere else for somebody that can make some throws, if not full time then at least every now and again.

LoganBuck
10-11-2009, 02:34 PM
I don't know if I can agree that Pryor has the arm.

He's just a bad QB right now. They're trying to shove a square peg into a round hole, and it's not working. If he keeps playing like this, sooner or later you look somewhere else for somebody that can make some throws, if not full time then at least every now and again.

Pryor has a cannon, his problems are with mechanics and decision making. At the end of the day he is 14-2 (losses to USC and Penn State) as a starter.

He still does enough to win. He is still young, and he is growing as a QB. His surrounding cast is in the same boat. I am not totally sure that any player on offense is doing their job at a high level. Young teams go boom and bust. Think 2004, that group looked really sad, and then suddenly Troy Smith emerged mid season and took off.

Repetitions, Repetitions, Repetions

Having a stud defense to lean on helps.

traderumor
10-11-2009, 05:26 PM
My brother and I were at the OSU-Wisconsin game yesterday. Had a blast tail-gating and then at the game.

Here's a link to pics throughout the day.....

http://s234.photobucket.com/albums/ee37/GAC1956/OSU-Wisconsin%20Game%20Oct%2010%202009/

Our observations of OSU - that I'd gamble a vast majority of the crowd there would agree with.....

OSU's offense is in BIG trouble. Completely predictable and lacking in inventiveness. Now whether one wants to blame it on Tressel and the coaching staff's offensive scheme, or Terrel Pryor, you'd get very little disagreement that ALL say they are contributing to the overall problem.

But Pryor looked simply confused and lost out there yesterday. He made numerous mental mistakes and bad decisions. He had open receivers on numerous occasions, and a couple, IMO and that of the crowd, would have been big plays for TDs. Whether he simply didn't see them, or checked off, that I don't know. But there was a lot of groaning going on in the stadium. The kid was throwing the ball in the ground on short slant routes.

In my section, the chant was not "O-HI-O", but was changed to "OH @#$@ NO!" :lol:

The only decent drive Pryor really engineered was in the last 2 minutes of the 2nd quarter where he threw a TD to regain the lead going into halftime.

Do you realize that Pryor didn't even make his first appearance on the field in the 2nd half until there was under 2 minutes left in the 3rd quarter? Yet we scored 14 pts. Amazing. The crowd was yelling at our offense - "Hurry up and do your 3 and out so we can get our defense back on the field and score some points!"

Defense and special teams scored 21 of our 31 points.

IMO, we are facing the same situation, with Pryor, that we had last year.... he has not yet proven he can pass the ball with much success and consistency. So teams - like Wisconsin yesterday - stack the line to stop the run, and make Pryor beat us with his arm (if he can).

Total yds.... Wisconsin 368 OSU 184

And here is what is really sick - time of possession Wisconsin 42:47 OSU 17:13.

And listening to Tressel's post-game excuses was sickening.

OSU MAY win the Big 10 - though Iowa is looking good - but Buckeye fans are due for another disappointing Bowl game loss against a marquee team when looking currently at this offense.GAC, the offense played poor in the first half except for the last drive of the half. However, you have to throw out yards and time of possession because of the three possessions that the offense did not NEED to touch the ball. The D scored 2 TDs and we ran back a kickoff.

The first half, you have every right to say the offense was pitiful, but to make any conclusions based on the way they scored just isn't fair. You can't judge the offense when they didn't hit the field until the game was in hand in the second half. Then, they drove down the field until stalling for the FG.

The bigger part of the first half was troublesome, but don't blame them for something they had no control over, like not having the ball to do something with in the second half.

GAC
10-11-2009, 06:41 PM
GAC, the offense played poor in the first half except for the last drive of the half.

Other then that drive prior to the 1st half, and the FG in the early stages of the 4th quarter, this offense played very poorly all game.


However, you have to throw out yards and time of possession because of the three possessions that the offense did not NEED to touch the ball. The D scored 2 TDs and we ran back a kickoff.

you can't simply throw out time of possession because it is indicative, and very "damning" evidence of this offense's performance which, for a vast majority of the game, couldn't stay on the field, get into any rhythm, sustain drives, and for the most part - give their defense a chance to catch their breath.

I don't care how good your defense is. You can't have them on the field for almost 43 minutes of a 60 minute game.

I was using my binoculars and looking at our defensive linemen and LBers. The linemen were down on their knees trying to catch their breath, and the LBers had their hands on their hips. One could see these boys were tired.



You can't judge the offense when they didn't hit the field until the game was in hand in the second half....but don't blame them for something they had no control over, like not having the ball to do something with in the second half.

My mentioning of that wasn't necessarily an indictment of Pryor, or our offense. Of course it's not their fault if they aren't on the field. But when they were on the field it wasn't pretty.

People keep saying that Pryor is still young, immature, and learning. That may be true to a degree; but it's not like he's a minor league ballplayer where he gets 3-4 years to learn and mature. College football is a different animal. At what point do we start to see some improvement from our QB?

Basically write off this year as part of the learning curve? But expect much better when this young team is full of juniors/seniors?

I will say this in Pryor's defense.... he doesn't seem to have the weapons in the running game and passing game that we've come to expect at OSU.

But again - we saw many times yesterday where there were open receivers down field, and it's like Pryor either checked off or just didn't even see them. There were groans all over that stadium.

We rarely throw the ball down field. And when opposing teams see/study this, they adjust accordingly and shorten the playing. That's why they are stacking the line against us.

And I'm sorry; but even after listening to Tressel's post-game, this guy just doesn't get it. I don't think the guy is ignorant, but he is a very stubborn man IMO.

BuckeyeRed27
10-11-2009, 07:28 PM
Tressell is the master of saying nothing. He knows exactly what he's doing.

My only concern from yesterday's game is that I still don't have a feel for if this team can score when it has to. The whole game had a weird rythm because of the 3 TDs. As others have said the TOP stat means nothing when you score that way. You basically gave away three possestions and when you play a team like Wisco that is all about ball control and running you are going to see a weird number.

Pryor still has a long way to go. He's lucky to have a great D to bail him out and let him learn. I'm not sure he'll ever be a great NFL type qb but I think he'll keep developing into a great playmaker. His struggles are about 80% mental and 20% mechanics right now and I think that is a good thing. He's learning the offense and sometimes doesn't know if he should throw or check down or run. He looks confused because he is confused. He'll learn. Hopefully he learns fast because this team could be unstoppable if he does.

Mario-Rijo
10-11-2009, 07:33 PM
Pryor has a cannon, his problems are with mechanics and decision making. At the end of the day he is 14-2 (losses to USC and Penn State) as a starter.

He still does enough to win. He is still young, and he is growing as a QB. His surrounding cast is in the same boat. I am not totally sure that any player on offense is doing their job at a high level. Young teams go boom and bust. Think 2004, that group looked really sad, and then suddenly Troy Smith emerged mid season and took off.

Repetitions, Repetitions, Repetions

Having a stud defense to lean on helps.

Well put and dead on the money. :thumbup:

LoganBuck
10-11-2009, 09:15 PM
One quick thing that I forgot about until tonight: During the radio broadcast, Jim Lachey made a point of bringing up how Wisconsin was focusing on taking away Dane Sanzenbacher. When you think about it, he is the only upper classmen in the receiving corps. So when Pryor has to read the defense, the receivers are making adjustments as well. Posey, Carter, and Thomas are inexperienced, and Ray Small is notoriously bad at route running. So what do we have? A group that needs time.

Captain Hook
10-12-2009, 01:03 AM
I still think the Buckeyes are the best in the Big 10.They have a great defense and decent special teams.They have a coach that that knows how to win games with that alone.

At some point Pryor like Craig Krenzel did on similar teams in his days,is going to have to step up and win OSU a game in the 4th quarter.I know Krenzel had more experience around him but imo it comes down to it QB play when the games on the line.In Pryor's case I'm not so sure we are going to see too many heroics and that won't be good if the Bucks get down against some good competition.Go Defense.

traderumor
10-12-2009, 09:24 AM
Other then that drive prior to the 1st half, and the FG in the early stages of the 4th quarter, this offense played very poorly all game.



you can't simply throw out time of possession because it is indicative, and very "damning" evidence of this offense's performance which, for a vast majority of the game, couldn't stay on the field, get into any rhythm, sustain drives, and for the most part - give their defense a chance to catch their breath.

I don't care how good your defense is. You can't have them on the field for almost 43 minutes of a 60 minute game.

I was using my binoculars and looking at our defensive linemen and LBers. The linemen were down on their knees trying to catch their breath, and the LBers had their hands on their hips. One could see these boys were tired.




My mentioning of that wasn't necessarily an indictment of Pryor, or our offense. Of course it's not their fault if they aren't on the field. But when they were on the field it wasn't pretty.

People keep saying that Pryor is still young, immature, and learning. That may be true to a degree; but it's not like he's a minor league ballplayer where he gets 3-4 years to learn and mature. College football is a different animal. At what point do we start to see some improvement from our QB?

Basically write off this year as part of the learning curve? But expect much better when this young team is full of juniors/seniors?

I will say this in Pryor's defense.... he doesn't seem to have the weapons in the running game and passing game that we've come to expect at OSU.

But again - we saw many times yesterday where there were open receivers down field, and it's like Pryor either checked off or just didn't even see them. There were groans all over that stadium.

We rarely throw the ball down field. And when opposing teams see/study this, they adjust accordingly and shorten the playing. That's why they are stacking the line against us.

And I'm sorry; but even after listening to Tressel's post-game, this guy just doesn't get it. I don't think the guy is ignorant, but he is a very stubborn man IMO.Time of possession and yards was primarily influenced by the two pick 6s and the kickoff return. The Bucks did not touch the ball until about the 2 minute mark in the 3rd qtr. I did not see the 4th qtr, but I'm sure that was ultra conservative 18 point lead play calling. I'm not trying to make excuses, just trying to make sure that facts aren't twisted to say something they are not because of special circumstances in the game.

The offense was poor until the last drive of the first half. The 2nd half was beyond their control. I'll take the points off defense and special teams and give them the yards and time of possession championship for the game.

Roy Tucker
10-12-2009, 09:53 AM
I went to school at Ohio State and I'm a big fan of the team. But I'm also realistic and I'm not one of those gonzo live-or-die rabid kind of fan that loses all objectivity when talking about the team.

OSU's defense looks excellent, particularly their DL. The TV guy was saying how Wisconsin's OL was the best he's seen all year and I'd say OSU's DL got the better of them all game.

Tressel has always relied on his kicking game and special teams and they have looked sound this year.

Pryor hasn't looked comfortable all season and their aren't any seniors good enough on the offense to step up and take a leadership role. Many of GAC's comments about the offense look spot-on. Very predicatable, Pryor stares down his receivers, we need bigger and more durable backs, the wide-outs are very young, and the offensive line really needs to step it up. Pryor is a beast running the ball though. I think he's growing albeit 3 steps forward, 2 steps back.

cincrazy
10-12-2009, 11:35 AM
It pains me to say this, but this team has no shot at a national championship. The defense is national championship caliber and can play with anybody in the country. The offense is downright atrocious and can't do anything well.

paintmered
10-12-2009, 11:52 AM
It pains me to say this, but this team has no shot at a national championship. The defense is national championship caliber and can play with anybody in the country. The offense is downright atrocious and can't do anything well.

I think that's an excellent summation of OSU this year. And OSU has no shot at a national championship because voters aren't going to put them as one of the top-2 one-loss teams in the country. I'd still bet on OSU winning ten games and making a BCS game this year though. And that still won't be enough for many fans out there.

traderumor
10-12-2009, 12:33 PM
It pains me to say this, but this team has no shot at a national championship. The defense is national championship caliber and can play with anybody in the country. The offense is downright atrocious and can't do anything well....yet. Funny thing about talent and young kids. Sometimes, it just starts clicking. There is plenty of talent on offense, just green talent. Might not be this year, but there is still time this season for dramatic improvement. I could really care less about NC considerations in that context. Win their games and let the other stuff take care of itself.

Roy Tucker
10-12-2009, 01:05 PM
I wouldn't say no shot but I'd say the liklihood is slim. They would have to win out which won't be easy with Iowa, Penn State, and Michigan left and then they'd have to leapfrog USC and Virginia Tech and maybe UC/Boise State in the mix and I just don't see all that happening. Just all unlikely.

Frankly speaking, I hope they don't make the NC game. I don't think they are good enough offensively and I think whoever plays Florida is going to get whupped. I'd be very happy with a BCS bowl game.

LoganBuck
10-12-2009, 01:17 PM
I wouldn't say no shot but I'd say the liklihood is slim. They would have to win out which won't be easy with Iowa, Penn State, and Michigan left and then they'd have to leapfrog USC and Virginia Tech and maybe UC/Boise State in the mix and I just don't see all that happening. Just all unlikely.

Frankly speaking, I hope they don't make the NC game. I don't think they are good enough offensively and I think whoever plays Florida is going to get whupped. I'd be very happy with a BCS bowl game.

USC versus Ohio State in the Rose Bowl?

BuckeyeRed27
10-12-2009, 01:34 PM
USC versus Ohio State in the Rose Bowl?

It will be USC or Oregon. I think OSU will have a close wit against PSU and should handle Iowa and Michigan like Wisco (although hopefully with a little better offense).

I think Alabama beats down Florida pretty good. I know Tebow was just coming off the injury and everything and they have a great D, but they didn't look good Saturday. I've only seen Bama for about 6 quarters which isn't a lot to pull from, but they have impressed me much more than Florida.

If I had to choose a NCG right now it would be Alabama and Texas...but there is a lot more football to play.

cincrazy
10-12-2009, 09:32 PM
...yet. Funny thing about talent and young kids. Sometimes, it just starts clicking. There is plenty of talent on offense, just green talent. Might not be this year, but there is still time this season for dramatic improvement. I could really care less about NC considerations in that context. Win their games and let the other stuff take care of itself.

There is certainly talent there, but I don't see them getting it worked out in time to really click this year. It may have been you that made the point about Troy Smith earlier, and it was a good one. Smith struggled at first, and his huge breakout game was that 2004 Michigan game. After that he was lights out.

But I saw SIGNS in Troy before that game, as a pure passer, that I don't see in Pryor. I'm not saying Pryor will never be a productive passer, but I don't see it happening this year. The guy (IMO only) doesn't have a great arm, and he can't make reads. He seems simply incapable of going through his progressions. I was at the game vs. Wisconsin, and I can't count the number of times me and everyone around me saw wide open guys streaking down field, only to have Pryor not look their way at all. It's frustrating.

I'm not questioning his athletic ability. But I will question his ability to be a quarterback. He'll be a good one, and he'll win games, no question. But I don't see in him what many do. I don't think this is being overly cynical as an OSU fan, I think it's just a realistic view of the situation right now.

This offense isn't simply bad, it's HORRIBLE. And rarely does an offense go from horrible to average, let alone good, in one half of a season.

LoganBuck
10-12-2009, 10:10 PM
There is certainly talent there, but I don't see them getting it worked out in time to really click this year. It may have been you that made the point about Troy Smith earlier, and it was a good one. Smith struggled at first, and his huge breakout game was that 2004 Michigan game. After that he was lights out.

But I saw SIGNS in Troy before that game, as a pure passer, that I don't see in Pryor. I'm not saying Pryor will never be a productive passer, but I don't see it happening this year. The guy (IMO only) doesn't have a great arm, and he can't make reads. He seems simply incapable of going through his progressions. I was at the game vs. Wisconsin, and I can't count the number of times me and everyone around me saw wide open guys streaking down field, only to have Pryor not look their way at all. It's frustrating.

I'm not questioning his athletic ability. But I will question his ability to be a quarterback. He'll be a good one, and he'll win games, no question. But I don't see in him what many do. I don't think this is being overly cynical as an OSU fan, I think it's just a realistic view of the situation right now.

This offense isn't simply bad, it's HORRIBLE. And rarely does an offense go from horrible to average, let alone good, in one half of a season.

Do you remember Northwestern, Iowa, and Wisconsin 2004? Those teams went from HORRIBLE to good in less than one half of a season. It has happened in the past and will happen again.

For some interesting reading check these out.
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recap?gid=200410090033
http://www.bigten.org/sports/m-footbl/recaps/101604aae.html

traderumor
10-12-2009, 10:14 PM
But I saw SIGNS in Troy before that game, as a pure passer, that I don't see in Pryor. I'm not saying Pryor will never be a productive passer, but I don't see it happening this year. The guy (IMO only) doesn't have a great arm, and he can't make reads. He seems simply incapable of going through his progressions. I was at the game vs. Wisconsin, and I can't count the number of times me and everyone around me saw wide open guys streaking down field, only to have Pryor not look their way at all. It's frustrating.
Not in defense of Pryor, but that occurs at any football game, good QB, bad QB, somewhere in between. Standing in a pocket, trying to see downfield, reading the coverage is quite a bit different than sitting in the stands and seeing open receivers from above. It looks so easy from the stands.

cincrazy
10-12-2009, 10:30 PM
Not in defense of Pryor, but that occurs at any football game, good QB, bad QB, somewhere in between. Standing in a pocket, trying to see downfield, reading the coverage is quite a bit different than sitting in the stands and seeing open receivers from above. It looks so easy from the stands.

I didn't say it was easy. But what I am saying is a freshman quarterback in Tate Forcier, overall this season, has been much better at it than Pryor. You can blame play-calling, surrounding talent, any number of issues. But the fact is, Pryor doesn't have any excuses. He's halfway through his second full year of starting. The guy has more college snaps than most QBs.

I wouldn't be so hard on him if he was showing signs of progression. However, I see none. I don't see him managing the offense better, I don't see him with any confidence, and I don't see him hitting open receivers. I'm not blaming just Pryor, don't get me wrong. As I've stated, the offense has a whole is dreadful. It's almost Steve Bellisari like bad.

cincrazy
10-12-2009, 10:31 PM
Do you remember Northwestern, Iowa, and Wisconsin 2004? Those teams went from HORRIBLE to good in less than one half of a season. It has happened in the past and will happen again.

For some interesting reading check these out.
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recap?gid=200410090033
http://www.bigten.org/sports/m-footbl/recaps/101604aae.html

Thanks for the links.

I see your point. It's not IMPOSSIBLE, but I don't expect it. Especially with the second half of the season featuring trips to Michigan and Penn State, and Iowa at home. I think this team is very capable of winning all three of those games. They're also very capable of losing two out of three and ending the year in the Outback Bowl or Capital One Bowl.

jimbo
10-12-2009, 11:32 PM
I didn't say it was easy. But what I am saying is a freshman quarterback in Tate Forcier, overall this season, has been much better at it than Pryor.


CMP ATT YDS CMP% YDS/A TD INT RAT
Tate Forcier 79 138 988 57.2 7.16 9 4 133.1
Terrelle Pryor 72 128 948 56.3 7.41 9 6 132.3

CAR YDS YPC LONG TD
Tate Forcier 61 180 3.0 31 2
Terrelle Pryor 65 333 5.1 43 3

Much better? All I know, is that I've seen Forcier play in three games and I'd take Pryor over Forcier any day of the week. I think Pryor's potential far outweighs Forciers.

BuckeyeRed27
10-13-2009, 12:01 AM
Much better? All I know, is that I've seen Forcier play in three games and I'd take Pryor over Forcier any day of the week. I think Pryor's potential far outweighs Forciers.


Absolutely. Forcier is a pretty good qb in that system, but is not anywhere close to the play maker that Pryor is.

Pryor is going to play some good games the rest of this year. Last Saturday wasn't one of them and he will definately have some bad drives and maybe another bad game. But he is one of those players that even in the middle of a bad game will make a play that changes the whole thing. That is why you deal with him not making perfect reads (after 15 starts) and sometimes missing easy throws. Last Saturday he really only needed one drive to win the game and he did it. End of the first half he reversed field takes off for 30 yards and a couple plays later makes an incredible pass to Posey for a TD. Who knows if he could have kept it going in the 2nd half. My point is that I think he is showing some growth and now just needs to bring it together for 4 quarters.

GAC
10-13-2009, 08:11 AM
It will be USC or Oregon. I think OSU will have a close wit against PSU and should handle Iowa and Michigan like Wisco (although hopefully with a little better offense).

OSU fans should be very concerned about that Iowa game. And be thankful it is a home game too. ;)

Untl the Bucks get a passing game and prove to the opposition they can throw down field on a consistent basis, they are going to be in doubt.

Our defense did an excellent job vs the Badgers last weekend. A simply exempliary job under the circumstances. And two plays in the 3rd quarter opened up the margin (INT and kick-off return). But if this offense doesn't become inventive enough to lengthen the field, and move the opposition's backs off the line of scrimmage, then teams are going to give us trouble, and there could easily be another loss in the Big 10 coming our way.

And if I was a gambling man, the Iowa game would be it.