Arroyo Pine Tar? [Archive] - RedsZone.com - Cincinnati Reds Fans' Home for Baseball Discussion

New Fever

10-01-2009, 05:09 AM

Wow Dave Duncan is crazy!!!

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/prepsports/story/2DE2EA84A70D00BD8625764200139BFC?OpenDocument

BY RICK HUMMEL
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
10/01/2009

CINCINNATI — Veteran righthander John Smoltz, who had walked only three hitters unintentionally in his first 34 innings as a Cardinal since coming from Boston, walked more batters (five) in the second and third innings Wednesday night than he had walked in a game since 1995.

Smoltz said he wasn't able to get a grip on most of the baseballs he tried to throw — and he exchanged baseballs regularly with home-plate umpire Fieldin Culbreth. After the Cardinals' 6-1 loss to the Cincinnati Reds, he gave credit to Reds righthander Bronson Arroyo for handling the situation much better.

Cardinals pitching coach Dave Duncan, who raised the issue of what he termed unrubbed baseballs with Culbreth and crew chief Gary Cederstrom on the field, wasn't so generous in assessing Arroyo's success with the same baseballs Smoltz was using.

Duncan, who said the umpires told him the baseballs indeed were rubbed up, said Arroyo was able to deal with the issue because "I'm sure he had pine tar on his cap. He didn't have any problem getting a grip. Balls like that can generate a lot more movement than a slick ball that hasn't been rubbed up."

Asked if he had seen Arroyo go to his cap, Duncan said, "Just every pitch."

Then Duncan said, "That's not the point. The point is that a pitcher should never be able to have control over how a ball is rubbed up, whether it's more or less. And since the umpires don't rub the balls up and their clubhouse guys do, I'm sure he had some control over it."

Duncan said he didn't and wouldn't ask the umpires to investigate Arroyo's head gear. "It's gamesmanship," Duncan said.

Cardinals manager Tony La Russa obliquely said, "There's a way to improve your grip. The balls weren't slick for (Arroyo). There's probably a reason why they weren't slick for him. Different fingertips or something. I don't know."

But Duncan noted, "I've been around for 40-plus years now and I've never seen a major-league baseball game played with balls like that."

The 42-year-old Smoltz, who has been around almost as long as Duncan, said, "These are the worst baseballs I've pitched with in my life. The other guy pitched with them, too, and he did a nice job. But I've walked three guys all year and I walked five today. I felt helpless."

In his bizarre two-inning stretch, four of the five batters Smoltz faced scored and the other forced in a run as the Cardinals continued sliding, this time before 11,930 fans.

Smoltz found himself asking for a new ball virtually every couple of pitches. He didn't have to ask for a new one, though, after Laynce Nix had delivered the most telling hit of the game, a third-inning grand slam off an 0-2 pitch.

"I just had no feel for the baseballs," Smoltz said. "That's the worst thing you can have as a pitcher.

"They were brand-new. The balls were not rubbed up. They were all white."

Historically, umpires have rubbed up balls before the game with what is called Delaware mud, but that job has fallen to clubhouse attendants at all the parks.

"I normally don't get that frustrated but that was a frustrating experience," Smoltz said. "I'm not a guy who walks five guys. I warmed up with really good baseballs. Ours.

"But no excuses. I definitely struggled. I was angry. I explained to the umpire I was frustrated and he said he knew what the situation was and there was nothing he could do. I've pitched a long time and not to find one or two or three baseballs that are remotely close ...

"I threw too many balls that just rolled up there. The other guy today (Arroyo) did extremely well with it. He shut us down. He's a guy who flips frisbees and sailers ... it could be what he likes. (Arroyo) dealt — with the same kind of baseballs."

When it was suggested that Arroyo, 8-7 at home and 7-6 on the road, had used that type of baseball before here, Smoltz said, "One would think."

Smoltz seemed upset that Reds rookie Drew Stubbs stole a base with the Reds six runs ahead in the third, as Cincinnati manager Dusty Baker held up three fingers, probably signifying the game was only in the third inning.

"I was frustrated. I'm not going to comment (on the matter)," Smoltz said.

Cardinals backup catcher Jason LaRue, handling Smoltz for the first time, didn't lay the whole blame on the baseballs. LaRue said, "Both sides are pitching with the same balls. You've still got to go out and make your pitches and do your job. But the question is: Were the balls rubbed up? No, they weren't rubbed up."

The Cardinals managed just five hits and scored three or fewer runs for the fifth time in six games and 10th time in their last 13.

La Russa said, "There's more (than one run) that I think our talent should produce."

Not surprisingly with this lack of offense, the Cardinals have lost five of their past six and 11 of their past 17 games, and their chances for having home-field advantage for the playoffs are evaporating quickly.

cincyinco

10-01-2009, 05:16 AM

Lol, if you're going to say he was using pine tar, why didn't you call him out on it during the game?

Oh that's right, in the name of gamesmanship.

Lame.

redsmetz

10-01-2009, 05:56 AM

I was just coming to post this story from the St. Louis paper. What a bunch of crybabies. And Jason LaRue was the only one man enough to say both sides played with the same situation.

Razor Shines

10-01-2009, 06:03 AM

I was just coming to post this story from the St. Louis paper. What a bunch of crybabies. And Jason LaRue was the only one man enough to say both sides played with the same situation.

You mean except for Smolts.

redsmetz

10-01-2009, 06:20 AM

You mean except for Smolts.

Yes, I re-read that after making that comment and saw that Smoltz essentially said the same thing. But Duncan, now he's a crybaby in this case.

Caseyfan21

10-01-2009, 06:57 AM

Smoltz seemed upset that Reds rookie Drew Stubbs stole a base with the Reds six runs ahead in the third, as Cincinnati manager Dusty Baker held up three fingers, probably signifying the game was only in the third inning.

"I was frustrated. I'm not going to comment (on the matter)," Smoltz said.

What is this now? Little League? We have a 6 run lead so we pull off the horses and do station to station base running?

With an offense like the Cardinals and the Reds struggles this year, I certainly don't feel like a 6 run lead in the 3rd inning is safe.

The Cardinals are really showing their true colors here. :)

steig

10-01-2009, 07:03 AM

I thought the umpires were the ones required to rub each baseball before the game, not clubhouse guys.

membengal

10-01-2009, 07:06 AM

Lord I hate the Cardinals.

Bush. league.

cumberlandreds

10-01-2009, 07:40 AM

Memo to John Smoltz: It's not the baseballs. You are just over the hill. Please retire as soon as possible.

Unassisted

10-01-2009, 08:04 AM

I'm sure a Reds beat reporter will make it possible for us to hear from Arroyo and the Reds "clubhouse guy" who's in charge of rubbing up the baseballs in a day or two. That should be interesting.

redsmetz

10-01-2009, 08:11 AM

What is this now? Little League? We have a 6 run lead so we pull off the horses and do station to station base running?

With an offense like the Cardinals and the Reds struggles this year, I certainly don't feel like a 6 run lead in the 3rd inning is safe.

The Cardinals are really showing their true colors here. :)

I watched the video highlights and they show the interchange between Baker and Smoltz. Smoltz seemed to nod his head after Dusty held up three fingers, indicating it was just the 3rd inning. I agree with you, in spite of our recent good play, six runs isn't a "safe" lead given the team we were playing and some of the struggles we've had during the season. I think John Smoltz was just frustrated with a lousy outing.

RBA

10-01-2009, 08:19 AM

Memo to John Smoltz: It's not the baseballs. You are just over the hill. Please retire as soon as possible.

Probably arthritis.

Tom Servo

10-01-2009, 08:37 AM

Up 6 runs in the 3rd you can't steal a base? Really?

jojo

10-01-2009, 08:44 AM

redsmetz

10-01-2009, 08:52 AM

I don't get the knee jerk "Smoltz is a washed up wuss" (especially since he isn't) and "Duncan is crybaby" reaction.

The cardinals have clinched-I doubt they were all that invested in the outcome.

To have Duncan and Smoltz talk about the grip is interesting.

I don't buy the Smoltz is washed up either, but I think Duncan's contention that Arroyo was dirtying up the balls himself was ludicrous, hence my "crybaby" comment. The whole question of whether the balls had been coated and how that may effect a the pitching is interesting. What I find curious is that the K's that were shown on the Reds highlights all looked like fairly "straight" pitches, well placed. None of them looked to be curves or trick pitches. Would balls with pine tar on them show some movement signs like that? I did see one clip that showed Arroyo touches his cap, but the next pitch showed him moving to the back of the mound and rubbing dirt on the ball (a not uncommon practice).

I'm not sure why Duncan would get his shorts in a bunch over this. We played better and they were flat. Might it have been the balls not properly coated and rubbed up? Sure, but both teams played with the random ball put into play by the umpire.

Tom Servo

10-01-2009, 08:57 AM

But I've walked three guys all year and I walked five today. I felt helpless."

??? He's walked walked 18 this year, including last night.

George Anderson

10-01-2009, 08:58 AM

redsmetz

10-01-2009, 09:01 AM

But I've walked three guys all year and I walked five today. I felt helpless."

??? He's walked walked 18 this year, including last night.

I think that three was since coming over to the Cardinals. I think that's what Marty mentioned on the radio.

HeatherC1212

10-01-2009, 09:05 AM

The Reds didn't seem to have a problem with the balls. Are the Cards seriously that lame to try to blame the balls, the umpires, the Reds clubhouse crew, and trying to say Bronson was using something extra to grip the balls instead of blaming the fact that their team is playing WAY beyond flat right now?! Smoltz was all over the place last night and I noticed that before he started the weirdness over the baseballs. After all this weirdness I really hope they go three and out in the playoffs. That's just crap and being a sore loser. Are they going to complain today if Carpenter gets lit up by the Reds too? :rolleyes:

jojo

10-01-2009, 09:06 AM

Tom Servo

10-01-2009, 09:12 AM

I think that three was since coming over to the Cardinals. I think that's what Marty mentioned on the radio.
Well that number is actually four (and is now 9), and it's not as impressive when you're talking about six starts and not 'The whole year' as Smoltz apparently said.

durl

10-01-2009, 09:12 AM

Lol, if you're going to say he was using pine tar, why didn't you call him out on it during the game?

Oh that's right, in the name of gamesmanship.

Lame.

My thoughts exactly. I didn't realize "gamesmanship" meant complaining to the press rather than addressing the matter.

edabbs44

10-01-2009, 09:41 AM

Smoltz hasn't walked 5 in a game since July 18, 1995.

RollyInRaleigh

10-01-2009, 09:42 AM

Uh John, if you didn't feel like the balls were rubbed up properly then look at what you are standing on at the mound......it is called DIRT.......reach down, grab a handful of it, rub it on the ball and the problem is solved!!!

That pretty much sums it up. Are some of these guys so pampered that they can't use a ball rubbed up with anything but Delaware River mud? Give me a break, Dave Duncan and John Smoltz.

Highlifeman21

10-01-2009, 09:44 AM

Ah, so pine tar is the secret to Arroyo's success.

It all makes sense now. ;)

Highlifeman21

10-01-2009, 09:46 AM

Uh John, if you didn't feel like the balls were rubbed up properly then look at what you are standing on at the mound......it is called DIRT.......reach down, grab a handful of it, rub it on the ball and the problem is solved!!!

Are pitchers allowed to grab dirt and rub up a ball on the mound?

I was under the impression they cannot.

George Anderson

10-01-2009, 09:49 AM

Are pitchers allowed to grab dirt and rub up a ball on the mound?

I was under the impression they cannot.

They certainly can at the amateur level, I know of no rule or cannot imagine why they can't at the MLB level.

I recall from my youth seeing MLB pitchers doing it.

Sea Ray

10-01-2009, 09:52 AM

I don't buy the Smoltz is washed up either, but I think Duncan's contention that Arroyo was dirtying up the balls himself was ludicrous, hence my "crybaby" comment.

He looked pretty washed up to me. Smoltz had a Hall of Fame career on power pitching. Last night his fastballs were in the 87-89 MPH range. John's basically throwing as hard as former teammate Greg Maddux in his prime.

I would not be surprised if Smoltz fails to make the Cards' post season roster

edabbs44

10-01-2009, 09:58 AM

They certainly can at the amateur level, I know of no rule or cannot imagine why they can't at the MLB level.

I recall from my youth seeing MLB pitchers doing it.

Couldn't this be a way of scuffing a ball?

George Anderson

10-01-2009, 10:05 AM

I guess Smoltz would not be allowed to use mound dirt to rub the ball up.

See note (4) (5) and (6)

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/pitcher_8.jsp

8.02
The pitcher shall not --
(a) (1) Bring his pitching hand in contact with his mouth or lips while in the 18 foot circle surrounding the pitching rubber. EXCEPTION: Provided it is agreed to by both managers, the umpire prior to the start of a game played in cold weather, may permit the pitcher to blow on his hand.
PENALTY: For violation of this part of this rule the umpires shall immediately call a ball. However, if the pitch is made and a batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a hit batsman or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to the violation. Repeated offenders shall be subject to a fine by the league president.
(2) expectorate on the ball, either hand or his glove;
(3) rub the ball on his glove, person or clothing;
(4) apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball;
(5) deface the ball in any manner; or
(6) deliver a ball altered in a manner prescribed by Rule 8.02(a)(2) through (5) or what is called the “shine” ball, “spit” ball, “mud” ball or “emery” ball. The pitcher is allowed to rub the ball between his bare hands.
PENALTY: For violation of any part of Rules 8.02(a)(2) through (6)
(a) the pitcher shall be ejected immediately from the game and shall be suspended automatically. In National Association Leagues, the automatic suspension shall be for 10 games.
(b) If a play follows the violation called by the umpire, the manager of the team at bat may advise the plate umpire-in-chief that he elects to accept the play. Such election shall be made immediately at the end of the play. However, if the batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batsman, or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to the violati

westofyou

10-01-2009, 10:12 AM

Hoosier Red

10-01-2009, 10:13 AM

Wouldn't pine tar residue make it easier for the ball to be used by both pitchers? I mean aside from the ball that Laynce Nix deposited into the right field stands. After that they needed to scuff up a new ball.

traderumor

10-01-2009, 10:14 AM

The other Cardinals pitchers must have gotten the rubbed up balls. They had a special bin marked Smoltz that they took the balls out of while he was on the mound. Very lame, almost Rodney Dangerfield "ooh, my arm" lame.

Maybe he was tipping his pitches again. He better have Carpenter, Duncan, et. al watch him in the bullpen again since his silver bullett didn't help much last night. Here I thought he was all fixed.

lollipopcurve

10-01-2009, 10:16 AM

I see a lot of the games, and Arroyo has had something dark on his cap for several games now. It's obvious. If it's considered illegal, they would have no trouble catching him. I mean, you can probably see it from home plate -- as the game goes on, the top of the bill of his cap gets dirtier and dirtier. It appears he's got something just under the bill that he goes to often, and this substance rubs off on the top of the cap when he takes it off and puts it back on. Really, it could not be more obvious.

My thinking is that it's probably common for pitchers to use some kind of sticky something to improve their grips, and Arroyo just makes it more obvious and messy than most.

mbgrayson

10-01-2009, 10:19 AM

When the Cardinals win, its' because they are the better, more skilled players.
When the Cardinals lose, it must be because the other guys are cheating somehow.

Crybabies....:runawaycr

traderumor

10-01-2009, 10:19 AM

This one is almost as good as LaRussa calling Aaron Harang a headhunter last year.

Of course, with Bronson, why not pine tar? Same ethic as the supplements he brags about using.

BCubb2003

10-01-2009, 10:27 AM

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20091001/capt.ba95267002c240a09df661c910a23537.cardinals_re ds_baseball_csb101.jpg

jojo

10-01-2009, 11:13 AM

Grip is extremely important with pitching.

RedsManRick

10-01-2009, 11:23 AM

Nice find BCubb. Now shhhhhh.......

RedsManRick

10-01-2009, 11:27 AM

Grip is extremely important with pitching.

Especially when you're a guy like Arroyo who depends on freakish movement...

I have very little doubt that Arroyo had a little something extra going to help himself out. And while I'm no fan of cheating, I'd be shocked if the majority of pitchers weren't doing something...

jojo

10-01-2009, 11:31 AM

Especially when you're a guy like Arroyo who depends on freakish movement...

I have very little doubt that Arroyo had a little something extra going to help himself out. And while I'm no fan of cheating, I'd be shocked if the majority of pitchers weren't doing something...

And he just recently articulated his feelings about cheating and he wasn't exactly anti-cheating.... :cool:

lollipopcurve

10-01-2009, 11:37 AM

15fan

10-01-2009, 11:39 AM

Poor John Smoltz.

Poor Dave Duncan.

Poor Tony LaRussa.

Anything more and I'd be flagrantly breaking rule #4 at the bottom of the page.

Sea Ray

10-01-2009, 11:40 AM

I wonder what Arroyo is going to do about his carpal tunnel in the off season? In the Enquirer today it said:

A second cortisone shot in early July put the carpal tunnel symptoms to rest.

"Without that, I wouldn't have made it through the year," he said.

That tells me that his carpal tunnel does effect his pitching and if he's not an medication he can't pitch.

blumj

10-01-2009, 11:46 AM

This should be no surprise to anyone who has been watching the games.

And if you think Arroyo is the only one who's bending the rules to get a better grip, I'd say you're naive.

I'm guessing the Cards don't want to shake down Arroyo because they don't want the same to happen to their guys. But they sure as heck wouldn't mind if somebody else did.

Remember Kenny Rogers in '06? And wasn't there something with Julian Tavarez in his Cards days, too? As many roads lead right back to TLR and his cronies with this stuff as lead anywhere else.

HeatherC1212

10-01-2009, 12:05 PM

From Fay's blog today:

Bronson Arroyo’s pine tar incident won’t rank with George Brett’s, but it perked up a slow morning in the Reds clubhouse. This is from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch:

Cardinals pitching coach Dave Duncan, who raised the issue of what he termed unrubbed baseballs with (Fieldin) Culbreth and crew chief Gary Cederstrom on the field, wasn’t so generous in assessing Arroyo’s success with the same baseballs (John) Smoltz was using.

Duncan, who said the umpires told him the baseballs indeed were rubbed up, said Arroyo was able to deal with the issue because “I’m sure he had pine tar on his cap. He didn’t have any problem getting a grip. Balls like that can generate a lot more movement than a slick ball that hasn’t been rubbed up.”

Smoltz walked five hitters last night after walking three in 34 innings with the Cardinals. He blamed the baseballs, saying they had not but rubbed properly. That led to Duncan’s accusation about Arroyo.

“I guarantee when I pitch against the Cardinals next year, I’ll call over and tell Dave Duncan I’m wearing a brand new hat,” Arroyo said.

Reds pitching Dick Pole: “That must have meant (Dennys) Reyes, (Josh) Kinney and (Brad) Thompson were using pine tar, too. They didn’t have any trouble throwing the ball over the plate.”

Reyes, Kinney and Thompson pitched the final innings for the Cardinals. Reyes walked one, the other walked none.

Balls are rubbed with dirt by clubhouse workers.

Arroyo was amused by the controversy.

“The only reason he said that is I’ve been wearing this thing all season,” Arroyo said.

He showed me his hat. It’s stained on the bill.

“That’s what happens. It’s from playing in every other park where there’s so much mud on the balls that that black stuff comes off on young fingers every time. I guess he said I went to my hat time every time. Yeah, I grab my (crotch) and do 8,000 other twitches. What you want me to do about it? That’s how I pitch.”

“The funny thing is normal switch out hats. But I didn’t switch hats because it wasn’t hot enough and it wasn’t soaking wet.”

Arroyo said he’s dealt with balls that were hard to grip, particularly at Yankee Stadium in October.

“That’s just the way it is,” he said. “You find a way to pitch. . . I don’t know I thought I had the day off.”

Tom Servo

10-01-2009, 12:15 PM

I take it Bronson said something more risque (and funnier) than 'crotch'. :lol:

_Sir_Charles_

10-01-2009, 12:21 PM

I take it Bronson said something more risque (and funnier) than 'crotch'. :lol:

Does this mean both Arroyo & Fay are going to be banned from RZ for violating #4? :O)

BCubb2003

10-01-2009, 12:22 PM

Wasn't there a reliever who had a legendarily dirty ballcap? And for some reason I think it was the Cardinals or Cubs.

LoganBuck

10-01-2009, 12:24 PM

Dusty held up three fingers at the Cardinals. He wasn't telling them what inning it was, he was telling them what he thought about their playoff chances. He was yelling "Read between the lines!"

I made that up, but it would be sweet.

LoganBuck

10-01-2009, 12:24 PM

Wasn't there a reliever who had a legendarily dirty ballcap? And for some reason I think it was the Cardinals or Cubs.

Yes Steve Kline.

RedsManRick

10-01-2009, 12:24 PM

Wasn't there a reliever who had a legendarily dirty ballcap? And for some reason I think it was the Cardinals or Cubs.

You're probably thinking of Julian Tavarez...

BCubb2003

10-01-2009, 12:31 PM

Steve Kline was the one I was thinking of.

http://a.espncdn.com/i/page2/photos/040405kline.jpg

Roy Tucker

10-01-2009, 12:40 PM

Bigger pic...

http://img.fannation.com/images/ap/2009/09/30/19/200909301944710667957-p2-660x660.jpg

klw

10-01-2009, 12:41 PM

And to think how excited we were growing up to play with a ball that was still white.

OnBaseMachine

10-01-2009, 12:46 PM

I love this quote from Dick Pole:

Reds pitching Dick Pole: “That must have meant (Dennys) Reyes, (Josh) Kinney and (Brad) Thompson were using pine tar, too. They didn’t have any trouble throwing the ball over the plate.”

I've always liked John Smoltz...but take your beat down like a man and stop whining and making excuses. Bad games happen to everyone.

OnBaseMachine

10-01-2009, 01:04 PM

"He shouldn't make wild accusations like that," Pole said. "If they suspected that last night, why didn't they check him? They would find nothing. The balls [Smoltz] were throwing out looked fine to me."

"if anybody should know, it would be Duncan," Baker said. "I remember they had Julian Tavarez over there. They threw his hat out, remember that? His hat was all messed up. They also had a left-hander, Steve Kline. It's not like it's something new."

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/10/arroyo_responds_to_pine_tar_ta.html

RichRed

10-01-2009, 01:06 PM

You mess with Dick Pole, you call down the thunder.

TheNext44

10-01-2009, 01:06 PM

Maybe a little pine tar on the hat is the secret to Duncan's coaching abilities. Maybe that's why so many pitchers are able to turn around their careers under him? Maybe that's why he was so quick to accuse Arroyo after the game, but not willing to accuse him during the game?

Tom Servo

10-01-2009, 01:06 PM

I guess it's safe to say Dave Duncan will not be joining the Reds this offseason.

flyer85

10-01-2009, 01:12 PM

So the clubhouse guy forgot to rub Smoltz's balls with stinky mud before the game ... maybe he should consider himself lucky.

Brutus

10-01-2009, 02:23 PM

Sure looks like pine tar under Arroyo's cap to me. That picture is pretty good evidence for it.

I agree with next's theory, though. Duncan must have a real good idea of what pine tar does to a baseball and probably has suggested it before. Makes sense why he would not be willing to make an issue of it in the game, but cry foul after the fact.

That picture though - that's sure looking like pine tar to me.

Hollcat

10-01-2009, 02:24 PM

Steve Kline was the one I was thinking of.

http://a.espncdn.com/i/page2/photos/040405kline.jpg

I wondered at the time when they got new hats with the world series logo on the side how he still had a beat up, nasty hat. That thing somehow got about a seasons worth of ageing in about three days.

OnBaseMachine

10-01-2009, 02:26 PM

“The only reason he said that is I’ve been wearing this thing all season,” Arroyo said.

He showed me his hat. It’s stained on the bill.

“That’s what happens. It’s from playing in every other park where there’s so much mud on the balls that that black stuff comes off on young fingers every time. I guess he said I went to my hat time every time. Yeah, I grab my (crotch) and do 8,000 other twitches. What you want me to do about it? That’s how I pitch.”

“The funny thing is normal switch out hats. But I didn’t switch hats because it wasn’t hot enough and it wasn’t soaking wet.”

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/

That sounds like a reasonable explanation to me.

CTA513

10-01-2009, 02:28 PM

Could be pine tar or it could be a build up of dirt if he doesn't change hats all the time.

Harang rubs his fingers on the side of his pants all the time when he starts and the dirt builds up pretty quick.

LincolnparkRed

10-01-2009, 02:29 PM

That steal part ticked me off more than the balls. It wasn't too long ago that we blew a 9-3 lead to those same Cardinals in the 9th inning no less. If they still have Pujols on their team then no lead is too much in the 3rd inning.

Brutus

10-01-2009, 02:33 PM

OnBaseMachine

10-01-2009, 02:46 PM

http://img.fannation.com/images/ap/2009/09/30/19/200909301944710667957-p2-660x660.jpg

http://www.woodenskis.com/photos/ski_prep/brush_pinetar.jpg

Notice the big glob of this under the left side of Arroyo's cap (and a smaller streak runs across the middle underside of the bill.

The Cardinals may be acting like babies, but it seems they have a good case.

“That’s what happens. It’s from playing in every other park where there’s so much mud on the balls that that black stuff comes off on young fingers every time. I guess he said I went to my hat time every time. Yeah, I grab my (crotch) and do 8,000 other twitches. What you want me to do about it? That’s how I pitch.”

Brutus

10-01-2009, 02:49 PM

“That’s what happens. It’s from playing in every other park where there’s so much mud on the balls that that black stuff comes off on young fingers every time. I guess he said I went to my hat time every time. Yeah, I grab my (crotch) and do 8,000 other twitches. What you want me to do about it? That’s how I pitch.”

That's his excuse. Maybe he's telling the truth. But this is the same guy that admitted he has no problem taking substances that may or may not be legal.

The color and texture of those spots are very, very similar. And further, he must be the only player in baseball that rubs his fingers off underneath his bill instead of the side of his pants.

Are you really believing that? If your fingers are greasy or muddy, do you find yourself rubbing them on the bottom side of your cap? That sounds awfully odd.

OnBaseMachine

10-01-2009, 02:50 PM

I believe him. I have no reason not to. Some people rub the excess mud on their pants, others on their hats. No big deal. I see Johan Santana rub his hat a lot during games.

BRM

10-01-2009, 02:51 PM

I believe him. I have no reason not to.

You're such a trusting soul. ;)

OnBaseMachine

10-01-2009, 02:51 PM

http://baseballrubbingmud.com/images/open1lb.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/087s3Hi9dq7gZ/610x.jpg

Sea Ray

10-01-2009, 02:52 PM

Maybe it's my computer but I can't make anything out of that picture. Is it under the bill of the cap? If so that just looks all shadowy to me.

I don't think we can tell from a picture if it's pine tar or dirt. The only way to tell the difference is if the umps inspect it and the Cards decided not to do that.

There always used to be a rosin bag on the mound. Is that still used? I would think that would do the same thing

Brutus

10-01-2009, 02:54 PM

I believe him. I have no reason not to.

For me, this is a good reason:

Arroyo admits to taking banned supplements

By Bob Nightengale

USA TODAY
Published: Thursday, Aug. 13, 2009 11:34 p.m. MDT

ST. LOUIS — Cincinnati Reds pitcher Bronson Arroyo reaches into his locker, pulls down a clear cellophane bag and slowly opens it.

He shakes out the contents like a kid on Halloween night. There are different-colored pills, powders, liquids, proteins, caffeine concentrates and ginseng, products such as creatine, Triflex and xelR8 found at local vitamin stores. Most of the products have not been approved by Major League Baseball for use by players, Arroyo says. Some of the items have the potential to trigger a positive test under baseball's performance-enhancing drug policy. Arroyo takes them anyway.

"I have a lot of guys in (the locker room) who think I'm out of (my) mind because I'm taking a lot of things not on the (MLB-approved) list," Arroyo says. "I take 10 to 12 different things a day, and on the days I pitch, there's four more things. There's a caffeine drink I take from a company that (former teammate) Curt Schilling introduced me to in '05. I take some Korean ginseng and a few other proteins out there that are not certified. But I haven't failed any tests, so I figured I'm good."

Arroyo, 32, is a byproduct of baseball's steroid era, part of the generation of young players who were working their way through the minor leagues in the late 1990s — just as power hitters Mark McGwire, Barry Bonds and many others were bulking up, setting records and scoring big contracts.

Arroyo says he took it all in and, although he never knowingly took steroids, he felt the lure to take the same performance-enhancing drugs MLB eventually would ban.

Now, Arroyo is the first player to flout aspects of baseball's drug policy and talk candidly about seeking an edge on the field with the supplements and vitamins he takes off of it. He ignores the dangers that come with popping pills and swallowing drinks bought over the counter — even as studies show they can contain banned substances that, if they turn up in a drug test, could lead to a suspension that would cost him millions of dollars.

"I do what I want to do and say what I want to say," says Arroyo, who will make $9.5 million this season as part of a contract scheduled to pay him more than $38 million from 2006 to 2011. "But society has made this such a tainted thing. The media has made it where people look at it in such a super-negative light. I've always been honest. I'm not going to stop now."

Arroyo, 6-4 and 194 pounds, says he had trouble gaining weight and strength early in his career.

That changed in 1998 when he discovered androstenedione, a steroid precursor that gained national prominence as McGwire, an admitted user, blasted his way to the single-season record of 70 home runs. Arroyo says he took "andro" until it was banned in 2004.

"Man, I didn't think twice about it," says Arroyo, who started taking supplements at age 5, according to his father, Gus.

"I took androstenedione the same way I took my multivitamins. I didn't really know if this was a genius move by Mark McGwire to cover up the real (stuff) he was taking, but it made me feel unbelievable. I felt like a monster."

'It's an ethical issue'

The 2009 season has been defined as much by the offensive exploits of players such as Albert Pujols and Joe Mauer as it has the revelations linking Alex Rodriguez, Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz to banned substances.

After a February report in Sports Illustrated linked Rodriguez to steroids, the New York Yankees third baseman admitted he had taken steroids from 2001 to 2003. In May, Ramirez was suspended for 50 games from the Los Angeles Dodgers for violating MLB's drug policy.

And The New York Times reported last month that the names of Ramirez and Ortiz, teammates with the Boston Red Sox from 2003 to 2008, appear on a list of players who allegedly tested positive for a banned substance during anonymous survey testing in 2003.

That anonymity was threatened in 2004 when the government seized the list from the companies that did the testing as part of a steroid probe into Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative in San Francisco. The list now is under a court seal.

Arroyo says he suspects his name is on the list for taking andro contaminated with steroids.

He says that to gain an edge he also took amphetamines for nearly nine years from 1998 to 2006 and that, as a minor leaguer in 1999, he was stopped by customs agents in Canada while trying to cross the border with such pills.

"When you're trying to establish yourself and you've got people saying, 'Try this, it will help you get stronger,' " Arroyo says, "I'm trying (it). There was nothing to be caught about because nobody was testing."

Even today, with MLB having toughened its drug policy three times since it was put in place in 2004, Arroyo acknowledges he is pushing the limits by taking supplements not certified as being legal and free of contaminants.

"It's an interesting mind-set," says Gary Wadler, an internist and member of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). "It's an ethical issue as much as anything. It's supposed to be about a level playing field, not a trick of getting as close to the edge as possible without falling over."

Inside each major league clubhouse, there is a list posted on the wall of approved and banned substances. Baseball has established a phone hotline for players and trainers to get information on products. And the players union recently told players about four new supplements that might trigger positive drug tests.

"The union and the commissioner's office has a certification program for supplements," says Michael Weiner, general counsel of the union. "We tell players that the best way to be safe is to use supplements that have been certified as clean. We've been pretty clear with our advice."

Says MLB senior vice president Rich Levin: "If you do take supplements not on our list, you do so at your own risk. You're responsible for what you put in your body."

Arroyo says he has heard it and doesn't care. He has an 81-81 career record, was a 2006 All-Star, has made the most starts of any pitcher in baseball since 2006 and has never gone on the disabled list.

"People can think what they want of me," he says.

'Performance' above all

Arroyo was in the Red Sox organization from 2003 to 2005 and had a 10-9 record in 2004, when Boston won the World Series for the first time in 86 years. He can't understand the furor surrounding former teammates Ramirez and Ortiz, or any other star who has been linked to performance-enhancers.

He says fans and the news media are more concerned with cherished records falling than they are with whether steroids or supplements will have an adverse effect on a player's health.

"I can see where guys like Hank Aaron and some of the old-timers have a beef with it," Arroyo says. "But as far as looking at Manny Ramirez like he's (serial killer) Ted Bundy, you're out of your mind. At the end of the day, you think anybody really (cares) whether Manny Ramirez's kidneys fail and he dies at 50?

"You were happy if the Red Sox won 95 games. You'd go home, have a cookout with your family. No big deal."

Arroyo says he doesn't know whether Ortiz and Ramirez used steroids. He likes that Ramirez has deflected virtually all questions after MLB suspended him for taking HCG, a female fertility drug popular with steroid users to mitigate the side effects at the end of a drug cycle.

He says he would like to believe Ortiz but says "it's a flip of the coin" whether Ortiz was telling the truth last weekend when the slugger said supplements or vitamins caused his name to appear on the 2003 list.

"I have no idea what David Ortiz or Manny Ramirez took," Arroyo says. "Ballplayers aren't nearly as tight as people think they are. I've never had a guy I played with say, 'Dude, check out what I'm taking.'

"Now, if you get it over the counter, that's different."

And if Ramirez or Ortiz or any other player was taking banned substances, Arroyo says the notion that teams have ever been concerned with anything other than wins, losses and money is absurd. The St. Louis Cardinals and San Francisco Giants sold thousands of seats and won games with McGwire and Bonds, respectively.

"If Mark McGwire is hitting 60 homers, the only thing that matters is his performance," Arroyo says. "People don't own teams to lose money. If you ask any owner whether they would rather make $20 million and come in last place or lose $20 million and win a World Series, there's only one guy who honestly would take that championship: George Steinbrenner (of the Yankees). Nobody else."

Praise for andro

Arroyo's attitude exemplifies that of many major leaguers: seek anything that gives an edge — without crossing the line.

Arroyo says he never cared whether the andro or another supplement was contaminated with steroids. He took amphetamines without thinking twice, but until 2006 they were not banned.

"Even what we know now about steroids, and all of the dangers," Philadelphia Phillies reliever Scott Eyre says, "if they didn't have testing, I think there'd be more guys doing it now than even did it back then."

Arroyo says he submitted to the anonymous drug test in 2003 but didn't take it seriously, figuring his identity was safe.

The collective bargaining agreement between players and owners stipulated that if more than 5 percent of the tests were positive, a drug policy with penalties would be put in place the next year.

He says he wasn't surprised when MLB announced after that season that 5 percent to 7 percent of players tested positive.

"I think most of us believed we'd be way over 5 percent," Arroyo says. "You knew for a fact there were a lot more guys taking the stuff five years prior to that."

Arroyo says he stopped taking andro in 2004, when baseball banned it. He has gone on to win at least 10 games in five of six seasons.

"I think I could have had the same career without andro," Arroyo says. "The best years of my career have been after they enacted the steroids policy."

Arroyo says he began taking androstenedione when he was in the Arizona Fall League in 1998, after McGwire's record season. Arroyo couldn't believe the effect. His fastball didn't increase in velocity, he says, but he felt strong the entire game. He added muscle and strength.

Arroyo swore by the supplement, even when a teammate warned him of possible liver damage. He says he was tempted to take steroids as he struggled to become a full-time major leaguer from 2000 to 2002 but never did.

"We brought Bronson up on supplements, but it was more about health," says his father, Gus. "I know everybody is human and get caught up with ego, but I don't think Bronson would ever do steroids."

Arroyo was introduced to amphetamines in 1998 by teammates in the Pittsburgh Pirates organization, he says, adding he'd still be taking them if they weren't banned in baseball.

"That stuff's like bubblegum compared to steroids," he says. "You're playing (night games) in L.A., you fly across the country, and you're pitching a day game at Wrigley (Field in Chicago). You telling me you don't want something to wake you up? You have half this country, maybe more, that can't function without a cup of coffee.

"You don't want me to get Albert Pujols out? Give me a break. If you give me (the amphetamine) Adderall, and I strike out Pujols in the seventh inning with the bases loaded, there's a pretty good chance I'm going to want to take that Adderall the next time."

No regrets

If not for the home run record falling, first with McGwire and then with Bonds hitting 73 home runs in 2001, Arroyo says there would be no drug testing.

"It might be dangerous," he says, "but so is drinking and driving. And how many of us do it at least once a year? Pretty much everybody."

It's also time, Arroyo says, to stop blaming baseball Commissioner Bud Selig, players union executive director Don Fehr or other officials.

"You think this country really cares about what ballplayers put in their bodies?" Arroyo asks. "If we really care, why are we pumping Coca-Cola in every kid's mouth, and McDonald's, and Burger King and KFC? That (stuff) is killing people.

"If you want to say the union continued to knowingly barter in bad faith for us to have steroids and not have a policy, hey, they're not at fault for anything. The union is there to protect our best interest.

"Whether you think it's right or wrong, the union is there to make sure we look good in the media, make as much money as we possibly can and continue our career as long as we possibly can."

Maybe there are players who are ashamed of playing in the steroid era, Arroyo says, but he is proud. He made it. He survived.

"I don't regret a thing," Arroyo says. "Neither should anyone else."

He has already kind of admitted he is willing to break rules. I admire his honesty on the steroid issue. I have no problem with his speaking so freely about it. But he's already been pretty cavalier with these issues. It's not much of a leap to think he is willing to cheat and throw a little pine tar on a baseball.

Sea Ray

10-01-2009, 02:55 PM

For me, this is a good reason:

He has already kind of admitted he is willing to break rules. I admire his honesty on the steroid issue. I have no problem with his speaking so freely about it. But he's already been pretty cavalier with these issues. It's not much of a leap to think he is willing to cheat and throw a little pine tar on a baseball.

I think that's a good reason to believe him. He tells the truth even if he ought not to...

OnBaseMachine

10-01-2009, 02:57 PM

Like I said before, I believe it's the dirt from the baseball. Six different pitchers pitched in the game last night and only one had problems with the baseball. I guess they all must have used pine tar.

Brutus

10-01-2009, 03:00 PM

I believe him. I have no reason not to. Some people rub the excess mud on their pants, others on their hats. No big deal. I see Johan Santana rub his hat a lot during games.

Think about the physics that would be required for your finger tips to be rubbed off on the underneath of a bill when you're on the mound. Not to mention, it would rub off in all sorts of spots on the bill and dirty up the whole underside - not collect in a big circle.

For it to rub off, as you (and he) are suggesting, you would literally have to turn your wrist over to where it's inverted and right in front of your face, and your fingers would have to be bunched together, kind of like in a "scooping" position. Otherwise, if you went to your cap normally, the fingertips would all be on TOP of the bill with only your thumb potentially being on the underside of the cap.

It's physically not impossible, but extremely unlikely it would rub off in the fashion he's describing. In fact, I'd venture to say I've never, ever, ever in my years of watching baseball seen a pitcher go to his cap in such a way on the mound that it's even been done.

Hold your hand out in front of you with the palm side facing you. Now bring it close to your face and imagine having a hat on. If you were to touch your hat, envision how you have to move your hand around for your fingertips to possibly touch the underside of your hat, especially in the spot where this residue is showing in that picture.

I don't think you're being intellectually honest with yourself if you tell me that's just a collection of mud that has worn off from his fingers.

Brutus

10-01-2009, 03:04 PM

This is clearly something that typically indicates a pine tar stain. Here's a story from last season that brings this subject up:

Dirty Cap Raises Eyebrows (http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_sports/dirty_cap_raises_eyebrows_aCCGrq9TSAPIREgYb9WWfL)

OnBaseMachine

10-01-2009, 03:04 PM

I don't think you're being intellectually honest with yourself if you tell me that's just a collection of mud that has worn off from his fingers.

You're welcome to believe what you want but I believe Arroyo in this case. As I said before, I see a lot of pitchers go to their hat while on the mound. If Arroyo had pine tar on his hat then I'm pretty sure someone would have said something by now.

nate

10-01-2009, 03:06 PM

They played the video of the interview during today's game. He actually grabbed the hat out of his locker and showed it to the camera. It seemed pretty plausible to me that it was just mud. The area exists on the top and bottom of the bill, it looked like a sweaty, dirty baseball hat.

Like Dick Pole said, the other Cardinals pitchers didn't have the same problems Smoltz had. Smoltz had an off night/the balls were a little slppery/he's finished and flailing for an excuse/etc.

Brutus

10-01-2009, 03:08 PM

In related news, but not directly at Arroyo, here's an interesting story today from the St. Louis Dispatch:

Intrigue Continues Over Slick Balls, Pine Tar (http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/commishs-hot-stove/commishs-hot-stove/cardinal-beat-updates/2009/10/3092/)

Intrigue continues over slick baseballs, pine tar
By Rick Hummel
St. Louis Post-Dispatch

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CINCINNATI _ The intrigue about “Ballgate” continued this morning when a Cincinnati Reds clubhouse attendant who is in charge of rubbing up the baseballs, stopped by Cardinals manager Tony La Russa’s office to tell his side of the story as to how the balls used in the game seemed so slick to Cardinals starter John Smoltz.

The attendant told La Russa, “I want you to know something. I had nothing to do with those balls last night. I’m the one who rubbed them up, but I had nothing to do with them. I don’t know what happened to them after they were over there but you look at them today and they’ll be the same.”

La Russa said, “You mean the same as what? yesterday?”

La Russa then showed the attendant two balls he had saved from the previous game and said, “Do they looked rubbed up to you?”

The attendant replied, “No. I rubbed up the balls but they weren’t like that. /That’s all I’m going to say. I don’t want to get myself in trouble or anything like that. I’m telling you I don’t cheat. I don’t lie. I had nothing to do with it.

“Somehow the mud got off them.”

La Russa said, “I knew they were up to shenanigans. I appreciate you saying that.”

Cardinals pitching coach Dave Duncan had said Cincinnati starter Bronson Arroyo had gone to some pine tar on his hat to enable him to grip the balls better.

Today, La Russa, “The guy’s got pine tar all over his hat and the other guy (Smoltz) is out there naked. We’ve got about six of those balls around here. That was pretty (lousy).

“(Arroyo) found a little edge. You can’t let the starting pitcher influence how the balls are prepared for the game.

“Maybe I won’t send over our lineup (to the Reds’ clubhouse),” said La Russa, half-smiling. “It would just disappear like the mud balls did.”

Arroyo meanwhile told Cincinnati reporters this morning. “The next time I pitch, I’ll call over and tell Dave Duncan I’ve got a brand-new hat.”

The Reds’ 15-game winner said his hat indeed had had residue on it but that resulted form using dirty baseballs in other parks.

And Reds pitching coach Dick Pole suggested that the three Cardinals relievers who finished up for Smoltz _ Dennys Reyes, Josh Kinney and Brad Thompson _ must have been using pine tar, too, because they shut out the Reds over the final four innings.

OnBaseMachine

10-01-2009, 03:14 PM

Arroyo must've sent some pine tar over to Dennys Reyes, Josh Kinney, and Brad Thompson because they didn't seem to have a problem with the balls.

LaRussa is a:runawaycr

Tom Servo

10-01-2009, 03:24 PM

Seriously, they are being complete babies. They're about to go to the playoffs while we have another losing season and yet La Russa won't shut up.

BRM

10-01-2009, 03:25 PM

Why is the Reds clubhouse attendant stirring the pot even more? He essentially told Larussa that something sneaky must have been going on.

Brutus

10-01-2009, 03:28 PM

I seriously think Arroyo just got busted. So if that's the case, I can't fault St. Louis for making a fuss about it (though they should have reported it to the umpire if they were worried about it).

That said, Tony LaRussa's reaction is interesting for this reason:

LaRussa Doesn't Make Issue of Kenny Rogers' Pine Tar (http://www.ethicsscoreboard.com/list/larussa.html)

Tony LaRussa's World Series Ethics
(10/25/2006)

Some cynics would say that we should expect Cardinals manager Tony LaRussa would be ethically challenged; after all, he is a lawyer. But that would be unfair to lawyers. If there is one ethical principle lawyers understand well, it is that their primary duty is to serve the interests of their clients, the people who hire them and trust them. LaRussa appears to have willfully violated that ethical principle in Game Two of the 2006 World Series. He had his reasons. Did they supersede his ethical obligation to his "client," the St. Louis Cardinals? Let's examine them and decide.

In the first inning, with his team at bat, LaRussa's players informed him that the Fox national telecast had shown that Detroit starting pitcher Kenny Rogers had some kind of dark substance on his pitching hand. If it was pine tar, as the Fox announcers speculated, Rogers was breaking the rules, which prohibit a pitcher from having a foreign substance on his person…especially a substance, like pine tar, KY Jelly or Vaseline, that in the hands of the right pitcher can make a baseball perform stunts that the Cirque du Soleil would envy. All LaRussa had to do was ask the umpires to inspect Rogers, and if he was caught black-handed the Tigers ace would not only be ejected from the crucial game but quite probably suspended for cheating. To say this would give the injured and underdog Cardinals a large competitive boost is an understatement.

But Tony LaRussa didn't demand an inspection. He merely asked the umpires to tell Rogers to wash off his hand, which he did. Rogers then went out and pitched his third terrific game of the post-season, shutting out LaRussa's team for eight innings. The Cardinal manager said he didn't regret his decision at all. "That not the way we wanted to win," he said.

That eight word sentence is ripe with mystery. Does LaRussa really mean "we," or does he mean "I"? It is almost certainly the latter. Winning because the other team is punished for attempting to cheat is not dishonorable; it's the cheating team that has disgraced itself. The Cardinals organization, LaRussa's players and the team's fans would hardly have risen up in protest had he insisted that Rogers be properly punished for attempting to get a prohibited "edge," if that is indeed what he was doing. It was LaRussa, and only LaRussa, who didn't want to win that "way." But why?

Some have speculated that he withheld an official protest to the umpires because of his friendship with Tigers manager Jim Leyland, a suggestion that LaRussa has angrily denied. No wonder. LaRussa knows that if that played any part in his controversial decision, he would be guilty of placing a personal relationship above his duties as manager, a breach of loyalty calling into question his ability to zealously pursue the Cardinal's goal of winning the Series to the necessary detriment of his friend in the other dugout. A lawyer who refused to exploit a mistake by opposing counsel in trial because of a long-standing friendship would be a candidate for disbarment as well as a malpractice suit.

LaRussa's real reason seems to involve his interpretation of the so-called "unwritten rules" of baseball. Some of those unwritten rules are long-standing and well known: "Don't bunt to break up a no-hitter"… "Don't steal bases or sacrifice if your team is winning by a large margin"…"Don't risk injuring an opposing player in a rout"… "If the other team beans your team's star, your pitcher has to bean their team's star." LaRussa, however, has embraced a relatively new "unwritten rule," and an uncommonly bad one, which seems to be, "Since everybody on both teams is trying to get an edge by skirting the rules, don't do anything more than is necessary to stop the cheating when you catch the other team doing it. Next time, it may be you." Or as he put it,

"There's a line that defines the competition, and you can sneak over that line, because we're all fighting for an edge. Just because there's a little something that a pitcher is using to get a better grip, that doesn't cross the line. I said [to the umpires], "Let's get rid of it and keep playing."

This is rationalization for unethical conduct on an epic scale. Here is the Scoreboard's translation of LaRussa's statement:

* "There's a line that defines the competition, and you can sneak over that line…" Translation: "Anything you can do without getting caught is fair in this game…."
* " …because we're all fighting for an edge." Translation: "…because everybody cheats and we all know it."
* "…Just because there's a little something that a pitcher is using to get a better grip,…" Translation: "An opposing pitcher may be using an illegal sticky substance to throw a better sinker ball, but so are some of my pitchers."
* "…that doesn't cross the line." Translation: "Just because it's cheating doesn't mean we should make a big thing out of it."
* I said [to the umpires], "Let's get rid of it and keep playing." Translation: "People who live in glass houses can't afford to throw stones. Some day I'm going to want another manager to look the other way when one of my guys gets caught cheating."

One cannot interpret LaRussa's words or actions without reflecting on the fact that he was at Ground Zero when the steroid epidemic exploded, not once but twice. He managed Jose Canseco with the A's while the muscle-head Oakland slugger was using steroids and promoting them to other players, including Mark McGwire. And he was McGwire's manager in St. Louis when the now-pumped up first baseman used his "edge" to set a new single season home-run record, later broken by fellow steroid aficionado Barry Bonds. Did LaRussa know what pharmaceutical misconduct was going on, but tolerate it because his players were just "fighting for an edge"?

LaRussa's supposedly sportsmanlike gesture in the World Series is really an endorsement of the cheating culture that has allowed Bonds, McGwire and others to thrive in baseball. In the context of the rampant abuse of banned performance-enhancing drugs that went on in clubhouses he watched over by players he was charged with supervising, LaRussa's decision to allow Rogers to avoid detection and punishment seems less like a principled statement that one shouldn't seek to win by penalizing the opposition for a rules infraction (itself a flawed ethical proposition), and more like a pragmatic position that cheating is a legitimate tool of competition.

It is a fair assumption that Tony LaRussa would not support this tool's utility if it wasn't in his own toolbox.

LaRussa's decision in Game 1 was unethical. He was unethical not to use every means available to him under the rules of baseball to increase his team's chances of winning the game and the World Series. It is not up to Tony LaRussa to decide what "way" of winning is acceptable. His job is to win, period, by any means the game permits. He was also wrong to openly endorse cheating as a legitimate tactic in baseball, though there is good reason to believe that LaRussa endorsed this philosophy long ago. His "sportsmanlike" gesture in fact was the antithesis of sportsmanship. By sympathizing with cheating rather than condemning it, LaRussa undermined the spirit of competition and the integrity of his game.

Sea Ray

10-01-2009, 03:33 PM

Why is the Reds clubhouse attendant stirring the pot even more? He essentially told Larussa that something sneaky must have been going on.

Sounds like the clubhouse attendant is trying to cover his own rear end. The umps looked at the balls and they said they were rubbed up. End of story

edabbs44

10-01-2009, 03:34 PM

Sea Ray

10-01-2009, 03:36 PM

I seriously think Arroyo just got busted. So if that's the case, I can't fault St. Louis for making a fuss about it (though they should have reported it to the umpire if they were worried about it).

No, getting busted is when a person of authority busts you, like an umpire. If he did it and got away with it then kudos to him. The fact he got the Cards worried about it, all the better

Brutus

10-01-2009, 03:40 PM

And Dave Duncan as well...

A 1988 LA Times story on "pine tar"

Notebook - Athletics Defend Former Teammate Jay Howell
By MIKE PENNER, Times Staff Writer|October 09, 1988

OAKLAND — Three thousand miles away, members of the Oakland Athletics rallied around Jay Howell Saturday, refusing to let pine tar smear the good name of their former teammate.

"He is not a cheater," Oakland Manager Tony La Russa said of Howell, who played three seasons (1985-87) with the A's. "There has to be some explanation. Jay is a class act here--and in New York. I'll take him any time."

Added Oakland pitcher Dave Stewart: "Jay doesn't need to cheat to win, if that's what they're trying to imply. Jay Howell is one the best relievers in baseball. It's just unfortunate he got caught using something just to give him a better grip on the ball."

And that was the thrust of the Athletics' defense of Howell--if he was indeed caught with pine tar on his glove, so what? The contention around the batting cage before Game 3 of the American League playoffs was that the use of pine tar is an accepted, if not entirely kosher, practice during cold-weather games.

"Even though that rule is against the use of a foreign substance, that part of it (pine-tar use by pitchers) has been ignored," Oakland pitching coach Dave Duncan said. "I think quite a few pitchers use it to assist with their grip. I didn't think anyone cared.

"Pine tar can only make a slight difference on a breaking ball, but nothing significant. It's just one of those accepted things. If a guy wanted to use pine tar, who cares? As long as he's not blatantly using it, to the point where the ball's half-black."

According to Stewart, pine tar has little effect on the movement of the ball--unlike, say, Vaseline or saliva--and can be counter-productive for a fastball pitcher.

"For a fastball, it keeps the ball on the fingers a little longer and you lose some velocity," Stewart said. "On a curveball, it just gives you more grip. It's not like sandpaper or tacks or anything that scuffs the ball. It just helps your grip. The rosin bag does that, too, but you need sweat or any kind of moisture for that to work."

Former catcher Johnny Bench, covering the American League playoffs for CBS Radio, agreed that pine-tar use is common in baseball--"A hundred pitchers use it," he said--but argued that it helps a pitcher with more than just his grip.

"The key to pitching is getting movement on the ball and because pine tar gives you a tighter grip on the ball, the breaking ball keeps digging and digging," Bench said. "You basically take away the top half of the strike zone from the hitter. The break of the ball is tighter and it spins downward. It makes the curveball that much more deceptive."

flyer85

10-01-2009, 03:42 PM

I guess this is turning into the "slick balls caper".

OnBaseMachine

10-01-2009, 03:45 PM

Someone should send those articles to Duncan and LaRussa to refresh their memory.

Brutus

10-01-2009, 03:48 PM

Someone should send those articles to Duncan and LaRussa to refresh their memory.

Oh, no question I think it's hypocritical. It's hilarious, actually.

I will say though, I'm taking the "it takes one to know one" approach on this. It's why I believe Arroyo got busted, because it seems these two guys are quite familiar with the tricks of the trade regarding pine tar. I think they'd know when someone is using it.

Hoosier Red

10-01-2009, 03:49 PM

How would we know that it was the same hat?

It's possible of course that it's not the same hat, however it all appears unlikely to me.

Bronson Arroyo, making the last start of the season for a team going nowhere decides in this game to rub the mud off the balls so that the pine tar he's rubbing on his hat can have the desired effect.

In order to cover up the grand scheme for the last start on a team going nowhere, Arroyo wears a second hat for the entire season, accumulating mud and sweat on it until it is in a pattern that will look just like his pine tar hat.

BRILLIANT!

BWA HA HA HA!

Caveat Emperor

10-01-2009, 03:50 PM

jojo

10-01-2009, 03:58 PM

I think that's a good reason to believe him. He tells the truth even if he ought not to...

I doubt he'd dare umps to try and catch him...

Brutus

10-01-2009, 04:03 PM

Here's why I don't believe Duncan:

1. If he really believed something was up, he (or LaRussa) could've asked the umps to check Arroyo while the game was going on. He had 9 innings to do so, yet said nothing.

2. Arroyo had the hat in question available for inspection today and there was no pine tar or pine tar residue (apparently) on the hat.

Criminals don't typically actually turn in other criminals, especially ones that are doing the same thing they do. It's why Duncan will complain about it, but won't actually do something about it. He does not want it coming back on him.

Arroyo has said he has two hats. My question is: how do we know the hat he made available is the one with (allegedly) pine tar on it? I'm sure if he's thought this through enough, he would use one for his pine tar hat and the other as just a dirtied up version that makes it seem like his rational is sound for how the hat got dirty.

traderumor

10-01-2009, 04:17 PM

I am very skeptical of the "clubhouse attendant" story. Sounds totally made up.

REDblooded

10-01-2009, 04:36 PM

I am very skeptical of the "clubhouse attendant" story. Sounds totally made up.

me too...

TheNext44

10-01-2009, 04:38 PM

Larry Schuler

10-01-2009, 05:02 PM

Look at the slight yellow tint around the smudge.

http://img.fannation.com/images/ap/2009/09/30/19/200909301944710667957-p2-660x660.jpg

It's CHEESE-O-LINE!

http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/22000/Cheese-Car-Oil-22279.jpg

I'm so done with Bronson Arroyo. I can't believe I ever thought he was a legitimate below league average pitcher! He's just a cheat.

Roy Tucker

10-01-2009, 05:04 PM

So the clubhouse guy forgot to rub Smoltz's balls with stinky mud before the game ... maybe he should consider himself lucky.

I didn't know that were that familiar.

;)

hippie07

10-01-2009, 05:33 PM

I am very skeptical of the "clubhouse attendant" story. Sounds totally made up.

EXACTLY what i was thinking

blumj

10-01-2009, 05:49 PM

Yep, almost remarkably phony sounding, to the point where, if it's not made up, it would appear to be a practical joke.

nate

10-01-2009, 05:54 PM

Was the clubhouse attendant on the grassy knoll?

Larry Schuler

10-01-2009, 06:00 PM

According to reports, the clubhouse attendant gave the info to Duncan and LaRussa in an underground parking garage.

OUReds

10-01-2009, 06:22 PM

I am very skeptical of the "clubhouse attendant" story. Sounds totally made up.

Yep. Why exactly would a clubhouse attendant do something so stupid?

If I were in charge of the clubhouse attendants, and I found out that one went to the opposing team and told them (or implied that) something funny was going on with the baseballs, he would be fired at the speed of light. If he is trying to CYB, he's doing it wrong.

GAC

10-01-2009, 06:36 PM

You mess with Dick Pole, you call down the thunder.

http://cindybarry.com/images/ROTFL110x85.gif

GAC

10-01-2009, 06:38 PM

And I do wish you people would quit talking about grip and rubbing balls. ;)

blumj

10-01-2009, 06:39 PM

Honestly, I know I just sort of threw it out there, but, it really would be a fantastic practical joke, getting someone to pretend to be the clubhouse attendant to give them this cryptic BS confession.

mbgrayson

10-01-2009, 06:43 PM

From Hal's Blog (http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/), we even get the clubhouse attendant's name:

The Real McCoy

Cards-Reds: some spicy controversy
By Hal McCoy | Thursday, October 1, 2009, 05:08 PM

Nothing like a little mud-slinging to spice up next season’s Cincinnati Reds-St. Louis Cardinals rivalry, which begins on Opening Day.

And most likely that game will be pitched by Bronson Arroyo for the Reds, part of the current controversy during which Cardinals manager Tony La Russa accused Arroyo of cheating and of somebody on the Reds of cheating.

Reds manager Dusty Baker reacted harshly over the charges and said, “Where I come from, man, you call somebody a cheater, you better know what you’re talking about. That’s like calling somebody a liar, a snitch, a cheat or a thief. Those are strong words when you call somebody a cheater and I’m the man in charge over here.”

La Russa and Cardinals pitching coach Dave Duncan believe Arroyo used pine star to sticky-up baseballs that were slick Wednesday, devoid of the Delaware mud that is normally rubbed on them before games.

St. Louis pitcher John Smoltz said the balls were too slick and La Russa said the balls did not have the mud on them.

Before Thursday’s 13-0 Cardinals victory, ignited by pitcher Chris Carpenter’s first career home run, a grand slam off Kip Wells in the second inning and six RBIs, clubhouse attendant Mike Dillon, who rubs mud on the balls, stopped in La Russa’s office.

“I had nothing to do with those balls (Wednesday) and I’m the one who rubbed them up, but I had nothing to do with them. I don’t know what happened after they were over there but you look at them (Thursday) and they’ll be the same,” said Dillon.

La Russa showed Dillon two balls he saved from Wednesday and said, “Do they looked rubbed up to you?”

Said Dillon, “No. I rubbed up the balls but they weren’t like that. That’s all I’m going to say. I’m telling you I don’t cheat. I don’t lie. I had nothing to do with it. Somehow the mud got off them.” La Russa said, “I knew they were up to shenanigans. I appreciate you saying that.”

Of Arroyo, La Russa added, “The guy’s got pine tar all over his hat and the our guy (Smoltz) is out there naked. We’ve got about six of those balls around here. That was pretty lousy. (Arroyo) found a little edge. You can’t let the starting pitcher influence how the balls are prepared for the game.”

Said Arroyo, “I pitch on the road, too, and I can’t tell you how many times I was unhappy with the way the balls are rubbed up. Every time I pitch in Milwaukee I can’t stand the way the balls are rubbed up. They can run out any kind of balls they want and I won walk five guys (as Smoltz did).”

Baker said he didn’t hear any complaints about Arroyo rubbing pine tar on the balls until a writer told him Thursday morning. “If anybody should know about that it would be (Cardinals pitching coach) Dave Duncan and La Russa, maybe,” said Baker. “I remember they had Julian Tavarez over there and they threw his hat out of the game because it had pine tar on it.”

That was 2004 and Tavarez was suspended eight days for using pine tar (later reduced to four days). And remember that lefthanded relief pitcher they had?”

That would be Steve Kline, who wore the same hat all season and by season’s end it was no longer red, it was brownish black — the color of pine tar.

“That is all just stupid,” said Baker. “Nothing went on. News to me. I don’t believe in cheating. Can’t anybody just lose any more without extenuating circumstances?”

Tom Servo

10-01-2009, 07:02 PM

You know, even more than Arroyo, I believe Dusty. Lord knows he's a lot of things, but I don't see him as a propanent of gaining an edge like that.

_Sir_Charles_

10-01-2009, 07:02 PM

Who knows what happened, and who cares? Pine Tar for a pitcher is barely an advantage, and I am sure that many pitchers, including ones with birds on their chest, use that and other techniques to get the best edge they can, whenever they can.

Duncan knows this, which is why he didn't do anything during the game. Why he said anything after the game is beyond me, it only makes him look like a little crybaby. It really is a non-issue.

Why did they do it? Isn't that obvious? His team is just about to start the playoffs and they've been scuffling for over a week now. Not exactly the best time for it. So...build this thing up, start a ruckus...and more importantly, get his own players riled up and angry. I think it worked wonders. Those bats certainly woke up today. Sure, it was Kip Wells, but they were swinging authoritative bats and they kept the foot down on the accelerator all game.

Gamesmanship. Plain and simple. Whining and complaining...sure, but with a purpose.

OnBaseMachine

10-01-2009, 07:11 PM

Arroyo was amused by the controversy before the game. Afterward he took a stronger tone.

“I was using the balls from the same bag as Smoltz,” he said. “They can rub the balls up anyway they want the next time we go to St. Louis. I guarantee I won’t walk five guys. I don’t like the way they rub up the balls at 25 parks. You deal with it.”

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/

The next time Arroyo pitches in St. Louis he should fire every other baseball in the direction of the Cardinals dugout like Smoltz did last night.

mbgrayson

10-01-2009, 07:34 PM

The next time Arroyo pitches in St. Louis he should fire every other baseball in the direction of the Cardinals dugout like Smoltz did last night.

He should fire the balls directly at Dave Duncan or Tony Larussa. ;) Course he might get jail time, circa Dayton 2008.

Highlifeman21

10-01-2009, 07:37 PM

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20091001/capt.ba95267002c240a09df661c910a23537.cardinals_re ds_baseball_csb101.jpg

Rut roh

Certainly looks like pine tar under his bill...

nate

10-01-2009, 07:48 PM

Rut roh

Certainly looks like pine tar under his bill...

Or a season's worth of mud from the ball.

redsmetz

10-01-2009, 07:52 PM

Dusty's comment was pretty good, from Reds.com

Reds manager Dusty Baker wasn't aware of the Duncan accusations until informed by reporters Thursday.

"If anybody should know, it would be Duncan," Baker responded. "I remember they had Julian Tavarez over there. They threw his hat out, remember that? His hat was all messed up. They also had a left-hander, Steve Kline. It's not like it's something new."

Tavarez, a former Cardinals pitcher, was ejected from a game in 2004 for having a dirty cap with pine tar on it.

Highlifeman21

10-01-2009, 07:55 PM

You know, even more than Arroyo, I believe Dusty. Lord knows he's a lot of things, but I don't see him as a propanent of gaining an edge like that.

What if Arroyo was in cahoots with whoever did or did not rub the baseballs?

The Dusty would have never known.

Highlifeman21

10-01-2009, 07:56 PM

Or a season's worth of mud from the ball.

I don't buy it.

I don't have any problem with Arroyo using pine tar, for the record.

mth123

10-01-2009, 08:08 PM

nate

10-01-2009, 08:09 PM

I don't buy it.

I don't have any problem with Arroyo using pine tar, for the record.

To me, it looked like brown dirt rather than black pine tar when he showed the hat during the interview today.

However, if he did use it, I suspect he's not alone.

Highlifeman21

10-01-2009, 08:11 PM

To me, it looked like brown dirt rather than black pine tar when he showed the hat during the interview today.

However, if he did use it, I suspect he's not alone.

No, he's not alone.

I think the Reds should experiment with ways to attempt to doctor balls.

Sea Ray

10-01-2009, 08:22 PM

I doubt he'd dare umps to try and catch him...

It's not up to Arroyo to catch him. It's up to LaRussa. He could have asked the upms to check his hat and we'd know it a minute if Arroyo was guilty. I'm sure LaRussa didn't want to risk looking like a fool

Tom Servo

10-01-2009, 08:25 PM

I'm sure LaRussa didn't want to risk looking like a fool
He's done a good enough job doing that with his DUI's.

TheNext44

10-01-2009, 08:36 PM

It's not up to Arroyo to catch him. It's up to LaRussa. He could have asked the upms to check his hat and we'd know it a minute if Arroyo was guilty. I'm sure LaRussa didn't want to risk looking like a fool

Or risk the Reds doing that to one of the Cards pitchers, and having one his pitchers suspended for the playoffs.

redsfan1966

10-01-2009, 08:36 PM

I respect John Smoltz, but the garbage he pulled last night was bush. From yelling at Dusty to throwing balls towards the Reds' dugout--it was lame. The only silver lining from the controversy was it seemed to end the "Will Marty get paid for filling in on Tuesday?" nonsense on FSN....

mth123

10-01-2009, 08:44 PM

Or risk the Reds doing that to one of the Cards pitchers, and having one his pitchers suspended for the playoffs.

I think this is a very valid reason why nothing was challenged assuming they really thought Arroyo was guilty.

Personally, I can't tell from a picture what the stuff is on Arroyo's hat. Anyone who thinks they can is just seeing what they want to see.

Brutus

10-01-2009, 09:26 PM

I think this is a very valid reason why nothing was challenged assuming they really thought Arroyo was guilty.

Personally, I can't tell from a picture what the stuff is on Arroyo's hat. Anyone who thinks they can is just seeing what they want to see.

Respectfully, a lot of people have studied the issue of cheating in baseball, and that picture right there is pretty damning evidence. Blotches under the cap like that is very strongly considered a sign of pine tar. There was a writer from Baseball Prospectus that published a book on cheating, and this is one of the things he's mentioned before.

There are many, many references out there to check out. But one book in particular that discusses it is The Cheater's Guide to Baseball by Derek Zumsteg.

Circular, brownish spots with sometimes a greenish tint are very much characteristic of pine tar. I really don't care much about pine tar. It's wrong, it's illegal, but I don't have a strong moral objection to it. Still, a spade is a spade. I think that picture is pretty consistent with the practice - a lot more practical than how 'dirt' or 'mud' worn off from the baseball would accumulate (this would be in more on the top of the bill than underneath). Not only do I think it's consistent, but if you look around at screenshots on the net of Joe Blanton, Francisco Rodriguez and other guys that have been accused of the same thing, you'll see there are similar-looking characteristics.

OnBaseMachine

10-01-2009, 09:30 PM

Or a season's worth of mud from the ball.

Yep.

mth123

10-01-2009, 10:59 PM

Respectfully, a lot of people have studied the issue of cheating in baseball, and that picture right there is pretty damning evidence. Blotches under the cap like that is very strongly considered a sign of pine tar. There was a writer from Baseball Prospectus that published a book on cheating, and this is one of the things he's mentioned before.

There are many, many references out there to check out. But one book in particular that discusses it is The Cheater's Guide to Baseball by Derek Zumsteg.

Circular, brownish spots with sometimes a greenish tint are very much characteristic of pine tar. I really don't care much about pine tar. It's wrong, it's illegal, but I don't have a strong moral objection to it. Still, a spade is a spade. I think that picture is pretty consistent with the practice - a lot more practical than how 'dirt' or 'mud' worn off from the baseball would accumulate (this would be in more on the top of the bill than underneath). Not only do I think it's consistent, but if you look around at screenshots on the net of Joe Blanton, Francisco Rodriguez and other guys that have been accused of the same thing, you'll see there are similar-looking characteristics.

I see a splotch of something dark.

1. Its not clear whether its circular.
2. I can't see any greenish tint.
3. I can't tell if its brown.

Can you really tell that from that picture? Really?

TeamBoone

10-01-2009, 11:02 PM

TheNext44

10-01-2009, 11:09 PM

Send it to a lab for substance ID. But in his defense, the guy has worn the hat all season; no wonder it's a mess. I don't think Bronson is a cheater.

BTW, where does one obtain pine tar? (and don't tell me from a pine tree)

It's in every clubhouse and dugout. Hitters use it on their bats for a better grip.

LoganBuck

10-01-2009, 11:30 PM

I have those spots on all my work hats. It occurs when you sweat and have dirty hands. We know Arroyo sweats, and has his hands on dirty baseballs. Think about this a little. Arroyo is known for messing with his cup between pitches. Shouldn't he have brown stains on his jock area.

LoganBuck

10-01-2009, 11:32 PM

Send it to a lab for substance ID. But in his defense, the guy has worn the hat all season; no wonder it's a mess. I don't think Bronson is a cheater.

BTW, where does one obtain pine tar? (and don't tell me from a pine tree)

Pine tar is available at most home improvement stores, hardwares, and farm stores. I typically have a 16 ounce can around at the farm.

jojo

10-02-2009, 12:54 AM

Send it to a lab for substance ID.

It's love potion # 9. :cool:

I don't think Bronson is a cheater.

He may not be cheating via pine tar, but he's admitted to being a cheater.

nate

10-02-2009, 08:59 AM

It's love potion # 9. :cool:

He may not be cheating via pine tar, but he's admitted to being a cheater.

Send in Joey Greco!

10-02-2009, 11:12 AM

Amazing. Did Smoltz really throw a ball towards the Reds dugout?

When I first saw this.....I thought it would be great to come out and put a beat down on the Cards yesterday. Oh well.

_Sir_Charles_

10-02-2009, 11:44 AM

Amazing. Did Smoltz really throw a ball towards the Reds dugout?

When I first saw this.....I thought it would be great to come out and put a beat down on the Cards yesterday. Oh well.

Not as bad as it sounded. He basically rolled it out of play himself instead of tossing it to the ump. And he was clearly irritated when he did it.

nate

10-02-2009, 11:53 AM

Not as bad as it sounded. He basically rolled it out of play himself instead of tossing it to the ump. And he was clearly irritated when he did it.

Yeah. And he did it several times.

Tony Cloninger

10-02-2009, 12:06 PM

You would think a guy who along with Glavine and Maddux ...got more favorable umpired games during his career would be more appreciative of the irony in not having an umpire see it his way at the end of his career.

Chip R

10-02-2009, 01:21 PM

La Russa said, “I knew they were up to shenanigans. I appreciate you saying that.”

Now Tony has done it. He's called shenanigans on the Reds.

Roy Tucker

10-02-2009, 01:47 PM

I just like it that the Reds did something that put a burr in the Cardinals' saddle.

For the longest time, the Reds didn't worry anyone nor did anyone give a flying fig what they did. Maybe the Reds are showing up on the radar again.

TRF

10-02-2009, 02:29 PM

Respectfully, a lot of people have studied the issue of cheating in baseball, and that picture right there is pretty damning evidence. Blotches under the cap like that is very strongly considered a sign of pine tar. There was a writer from Baseball Prospectus that published a book on cheating, and this is one of the things he's mentioned before.

There are many, many references out there to check out. But one book in particular that discusses it is The Cheater's Guide to Baseball by Derek Zumsteg.

Circular, brownish spots with sometimes a greenish tint are very much characteristic of pine tar. I really don't care much about pine tar. It's wrong, it's illegal, but I don't have a strong moral objection to it. Still, a spade is a spade. I think that picture is pretty consistent with the practice - a lot more practical than how 'dirt' or 'mud' worn off from the baseball would accumulate (this would be in more on the top of the bill than underneath). Not only do I think it's consistent, but if you look around at screenshots on the net of Joe Blanton, Francisco Rodriguez and other guys that have been accused of the same thing, you'll see there are similar-looking characteristics.

Or... It's a pic taken from a distance with a zoom lens under stadium lights.

I have a TB Devil Rays hat that I wear every time i play softball. Here in Texas, it tends to get hot. I have a similar looking stain (albeit from two years and not one, but far fewer games played). I've never even touched pine tar in my life. I pick up dirt around 1B, rub it in my glove for luck then adjust my cap.

just sayin.

Caveat Emperor

10-02-2009, 02:50 PM

Cyclone792

10-02-2009, 04:03 PM

As far as I'm concerned, if Arroyo was using pine tar in his domination, then I tell him job well done and keep up the good work. And if he wasn't using pine tar, then I ask him to consider trying it out to see if it helps him even further.

Just win, baby.

Chip R

10-02-2009, 04:23 PM

I think a lot of this is that when someone - or some organization - that has been successful for a long time is unsuccessful, they don't blame themselves and they blame others.

blumj

10-02-2009, 06:35 PM

Even if Arroyo was rubbing pine tar on the baseball -- who cares. He's far from the only person in baseball who has ever done it, and probably wasn't the only person doing it that night even. Hell, that's why many pitchers never change their hats -- I'm sure the ones NOT rubbing pine tar on their hats are still hoping that whatever's up there will give them a better grip when they mix it with sweat.

What was bush league was making a huge deal out of it AFTER a game. If you think there's cheating going on, call it out on the spot and investigate. If you wait until afterward and then start lobbing accusations, you're just a sore sport. This is especially true when you're playing a completely meaningless game in Cincinnati in September.

Seriously, St. Louis -- you win. You've been winning for a decade. You won this year. Can't you just win, be happy, and go about your postseason business?
Right, and in case this needs further explanation, they get the benefit of suspicion, while the accused no longer has the ability to adequately defend himself. If they make the accusation during the game, and umpires don't find anything he shouldn't be using, he's defended himself adequately. If they wait until the game is over, all he can do is show you a cap with nothing on it that shouldn't be there, but which he can't prove is the same cap, so the benefit of the suspicion remains for the accuser while the accused has lost the opportunity to have an adequate defense.

GAC

10-02-2009, 06:38 PM

I wish he was using pine tar when he was having those 1st inning meltdowns and giving up 11 runs. He must have been using exlax because he got run out of there pretty quick!

TeamBoone

10-02-2009, 07:08 PM

He may not be cheating via pine tar, but he's admitted to being a cheater.
Yes, he has... but it was in the past. I don't think he'd take the chance now.

TeamBoone

10-02-2009, 07:18 PM

Seriously, St. Louis -- you win. You've been winning for a decade. You won this year. Can't you just win, be happy, and go about your postseason business?

And herein lies the problem... they'd lost two games in a row to the lowly Reds.

Apparently the Cardinals powers that be had not been paying any attention to the Reds during the month of September as they didn't seem to realize they've been winning. Nor did they seem to know that Bruce appears to be out of his hitting slump as they continued to the apply the "old" shift on him.

jojo

10-02-2009, 07:41 PM

Maybe it's just the balls felt funny to Smoltz.