The All Worst Acquisition team

[mth123]

Watching the NLCS I see Jayson Werth playing for Philly and I'm reminded of how the Reds were looking for a RH Bat in the off-season when he became available. The Reds not only passed but traded for the faded more expensive guy that he replaced (Jeff Conine). So, I put togther a quick all worst acquisition team of the most recent seasons. I've put the initials of the GM to blame after the name of the chosen disaster. In some cases it was the GM who resigned or reacquired the player who is more to blame than the guy who originally brought him in.

1B - Jeff Conine (WK)
2B - Tony Womack (DO)
SS - Royce Clayton (WK)
3B - Scott Rolen (WJ - because of what they paid to get him)
LF - Jerry Hairston (WJ - who brought him back)
CF - Willy Taveras (WJ)
RF - Quinton McCracken (WK - because they kept him over Cody Ross)
C - Paul Bako (WK)

UI - Juan Castro (WK)
4OF - Corey Patterson (WK)
PH - John Vander Wal (DO)
C- Wilkin Castillo (WJ)
U - Danny Richar (WJ)

SP - Eric Milton (DO)
SP - Kirk Saarloos (WK)
SP - Josh Fogg (WK)
SP - Ramon Ortiz (DO)
SP - Dave Williams (DO)
SW - Joe Mays (WK)
RP - Gary Majewski (WK)
RP - Mike Lincoln (WJ)
RP - Mike Burns (DO)
RP - Rheal Cormier (WK)
RP - Mike Stanton (WK)
RP - Victor Santos (WK)

No wonder Krivsky spent so much on Cordero. It seems he couldn't fix the bullpen to save his life. I'm sure there are other choices. Chime in.

[GADawg]

Hairston was very useful during his "tenure"....Juan Castro was exactly as advertised as unexciting as it was....and the jury is still WAY out on the Rolen acquisition regardless of the cost....the rest of the list definitely pretty sad

[Jpup]

nothing wrong with Hairston. He was misused, but injuries caused some of that.

[wolfboy]

That's a painful list to look at.

[Chip R]

Hairston was very useful during his "tenure"....Juan Castro was exactly as advertised as unexciting as it was....and the jury is still WAY out on the Rolen acquisition regardless of the cost....the rest of the list definitely pretty sad

Castro was actually acquired twice. Once by JimBo and once by Wayne.

[edabbs44]

You know the bullpen is atrocious when Rick White can't crack the first team.

[*BaseClogger*]

Lots of "WK"s in that bullpen...

[savafan]

That is a good list of awful mediocrity.

I'd honorable mention Buck Coats, Quinton McCracken, Jason Romano, Todd Van Poppel and Tim Hummel (3B)

[Tom Servo]

I don't see how Conine was a 'disaster' just because of who we didn't get. He was perfectly fine in his role and played well.

[Chip R]

That is a good list of awful mediocrity.

I'd honorable mention Buck Coats, Quinton McCracken, Jason Romano, Todd Van Poppel and Tim Hummel (3B)


Yeah, but Hummel gave the Reds street cred.

[savafan]

Yeah, but Hummel gave the Reds street cred.

True dat :thumbup:

[savafan]

I'd honorable mention Buck Coats, Quinton McCracken, Jason Romano, Todd Van Poppel and Tim Hummel (3B)

I came across this news story just after posting this. Not sure why I find this article so humorous...but I do!

http://eon.businesswire.com/portal/site/eon/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20091015006373&newsLang=en

TALLAHASSEE, Fla.--(EON: Enhanced Online News)--Former Major League Baseball player Jason Romano today visited with Florida State University athletes and trainers to discuss sports injuries, the effects on playing ability and the treatment of athletes in recovery. Having personally benefitted from Speed Gel, Romano was passionate to share his experiences with Florida State’s athletic department. Romano supplied samples of Speed Gel, inviting athletes and trainers to experience its unique benefits during their normal workout routine.

“Trainers and athletes are always looking for something post game to take away aches and pains,” said Jason Romano, spokesperson for Speed Gel. “Speed Gel will be a great compliment to ice for Florida State athletes after their workouts.”

This fall, Romano is taking his Speed Gel experiences on the road to other universities, professional athletic teams and sporting events throughout Florida. Romano hopes to spread awareness of Speed Gel through communicating how it successfully carried him through his baseball injuries, aches and pains. Romano strongly feels that Speed Gel enabled him to finish out his career as a successful player.

Speed Gel is a paradigm shift in the treatment of muscle and joint pain, injuries and inflammation. Its powerful ingredients are delivered directly through the skin using a patented transdermal technology, which penetrates to the exact site of injury. Unlike muscle rubs that mask pain and oral pain relievers that must pass through the entire body, Speed Gel localizes treatment and starts the recovery process on contact.

Jason Romano was drafted directly out of high school as a 1st round pick for the Texas Rangers in 1997. Spending the first 5 years in the Minor Leagues, Romano’s strong performance made him the Rangers’ top prospect, leading him to his Major League debut in April of 2002 against the Anaheim Angels. Romano was also a super utility player for the Colorado Rockies, the Los Angeles Dodgers and the Cincinnati Reds. After suffering from a series of major injuries, Romano retired from baseball in Spring 2009.

Gensco Laboratories, LLC is a specialty pharmaceutical drug development company based out of Inverness, Florida. For more information, go to www.speedgel.com.

[mth123]

I don't see how Conine was a 'disaster' just because of who we didn't get. He was in his role and played well.

Conine played 1B and had the platoon advantage when he was in there and still only managed an OPS of .729. That's a horrible disadvantage at that position. Add that the Reds actually went out and acquired him at age 41 when assembling younger talent that could jell down the road was direction that the team needed to go. He was a horrible idea that worked out the way horrible ideas usually do.

[mth123]

nothing wrong with Hairston. He was misused, but injuries caused some of that.

He was a horrible acquisition because he was acquired with the idea of playing SS or being part of a LF platoon. Had he been acquired to share CF with Dickerson he wouldn't be on this list. He's not a bad player but it was a horrible acquisition that was part of a horrible plan involving Willy T in CF and a judy hitting platoon in LF.

[mth123]

That is a good list of awful mediocrity.

I'd honorable mention Buck Coats, Quinton McCracken, Jason Romano, Todd Van Poppel and Tim Hummel (3B)

I have McCracken on there. Forgot all about Coats, Hummel and Romano but they were more flyers than calculated choices. I'm more evaluating the acquisition than the player. McCraken is on the list because the team made a calculated choice to keep him around while cutting Cody Ross loose. That was a horrible decision. The others were more in the "lets take a look" category but didn't have any real opportunity cost associated with them. Rolen falls in the McCracken category for me. I like Rolen well enough as a player, but IMO there were better things to spend the team's top pitching prospect on and to use its final budget dollars for than a 3B who looks like he's on the wane and with a probable .750 or so OPS. That makes him a horrible acquisition IMO.

Van Poppel could easily be there. That last pitching spot was not so bad. Nothing wrong with taking a flyer on a guy for cheap when there is nothing better to put in their place so Santos and Mays were much less horrible as acquisitions go than the rest and Van Poppel would seem to be on the level of those two. The others were more calculated "fixes" that were bad ideas from the get go and enough people could see it coming that a MLB GM should have been able to as well.

[Degenerate39]

Rick Stone?

[edabbs44]

No AGon?

[jojo]

Watching the NLCS I see Jayson Werth playing for Philly and I'm reminded of how the Reds were looking for a RH Bat in the off-season when he became available. The Reds not only passed but traded for the faded more expensive guy that he replaced (Jeff Conine). So, I put togther a quick all worst acquisition team of the most recent seasons. I've put the initials of the GM to blame after the name of the chosen disaster. In some cases it was the GM who resigned or reacquired the player who is more to blame than the guy who originally brought him in.

1B - Jeff Conine (WK)
2B - Tony Womack (DO)
SS - Royce Clayton (WK)
3B - Scott Rolen (WJ - because of what they paid to get him)
LF - Jerry Hairston (WJ - who brought him back)
CF - Willy Taveras (WJ)
RF - Quinton McCracken (WK - because they kept him over Cody Ross)
C - Paul Bako (WK)

UI - Juan Castro (WK)
4OF - Corey Patterson (WK)
PH - John Vander Wal (DO)
C- Wilkin Castillo (WJ)
U - Danny Richar (WJ)

SP - Eric Milton (DO)
SP - Kirk Saarloos (WK)
SP - Josh Fogg (WK)
SP - Ramon Ortiz (DO)
SP - Dave Williams (DO)
SW - Joe Mays (WK)
RP - Gary Majewski (WK)
RP - Mike Lincoln (WJ)
RP - Mike Burns (DO)
RP - Rheal Cormier (WK)
RP - Mike Stanton (WK)
RP - Victor Santos (WK)

No wonder Krivsky spent so much on Cordero. It seems he couldn't fix the bullpen to save his life. I'm sure there are other choices. Chime in.

Dave Williams listed as a 5th starter even in that group.... sometimes its hurts to laugh.

[nate]

I don't think Rolen, Conine and Hairston are/were "all worst."

[jojo]

I don't think Rolen, Conine and Hairston are/were "all worst."

Ya, it's too early to put Rolen on that list..... Now if he hurts his back next April....

Certainly if his cost lands him there, then Cordero needs to be the closer on that team and possibly Jr needs consideration too... Ignoring the money issue,Cameron was a more valuable player than Jr in the years since the trade....

[edabbs44]

I don't think Rolen, Conine and Hairston are/were "all worst."

Yeah, CPatt should be starting over Hairston easily. And if we are going to include one-year extensions (like Lincoln/Hairston), then I'd question why Hatteberg's 2008 option isn't making an appearance.

[Slyder]

Yeah, CPatt should be starting over Hairston easily. And if we are going to include one-year extensions (like Lincoln/Hairston), then I'd question why Hatteberg's 2008 option isn't making an appearance.

There was no guarentee that Votto would take the bull by the horns. What do you do with 1b if Votto came up and was just awful in spring training and needed more time at Louisville?

[edabbs44]

There was no guarentee that Votto would take the bull by the horns. What do you do with 1b if Votto came up and was just awful in spring training and needed more time at Louisville?

Please let's not debate this. We could say the same thing about many of these moves.

But, to answer your question, they could have kept Cantu and his .808 OPS from that year instead of Hatte and his .493 OPS.

And I know Hatte was better the years before, but my logic is that some of these moves are in the same genre, such as Hairston from 2008 to 2009.

[nate]

Ya, it's too early to put Rolen on that list..... Now if he hurts his back next April....

Certainly if his cost lands him there, then Cordero needs to be the closer on that team and possibly Jr needs consideration too... Ignoring the money issue,Cameron was a more valuable player than Jr in the years since the trade....

To me, "The All Worst Acquisition team" would encompassing being terrible before and during tenure with the Reds. For me, overpaying for a good players isn't as bad as acquiring someone who could've been replaced by a fan who brought a glove to the game.

[jojo]

To me, "The All Worst Acquisition team" would encompassing being terrible before and during tenure with the Reds. For me, overpaying for a good players isn't as bad as acquiring someone who could've been replaced by a fan who brought a glove to the game.

Ya, I agree. The worst should be reserved for the bad decisions. The ones that had no chance of working out.

[Bill]

Costo.

[Raisor]

He's[Hairston] not a bad playe


Yes he is. Hairston is a BAD player.

When you have this line .259 .328 .373 .701 and over 3600 PA's, you're BAD.

And yes, I know he had a really good year in 08.

[Captain Hook]

D'Angelo Jimenez:thumbdown

[Bill]

Jimenez was Bowdens last deal and while he did not work out, he only gave up Scott Dunn for him.

Ok, so Costo was not a recent season, but the boneheaded front office forced their own hand in having to deal Jefferson which makes recall of the lopsided deal easy to this day.

[bucksfan2]

Just an opinion, but most one year deals aren't that bad. In most cases they don't hamstring the club, and the players are easily disposable. Look I know Patterson was awful last season, but he was sent down to the minors and has no impact on the club this season.

JHJ was a good player in 2009, was signed to a 1 year deal, and then flipped at the trading deadline. I really don't consider that a bad deal.

[edabbs44]

Just an opinion, but most one year deals aren't that bad. In most cases they don't hamstring the club, and the players are easily disposable. Look I know Patterson was awful last season, but he was sent down to the minors and has no impact on the club this season.

JHJ was a good player in 2009, was signed to a 1 year deal, and then flipped at the trading deadline. I really don't consider that a bad deal.

While I agree generally, those were two different stories. Hairston wasn't a phenomenal signing but wasn't awful. Patterson, even though it was only was for 1 year, made no sense. Adding in the $$ figures and it made less than no sense.

[MrCinatit]

What particularly pains me about many of these deals is their scope. For many teams, these would be nothing but utility guys, guys used to plug in a couple of roster spots, or even minor league fodder.
But, not the Reds. The Reds have had the likes of Patterson, Taveras and Milton as "major" signings, and Williams and the Magic Man as major trading pieces.

[LoganBuck]

Todd Hollandsworth was the big bat off the bench that was going to be a difference maker in 2006.

[mth123]

Todd Hollandsworth was the big bat off the bench that was going to be a difference maker in 2006.

Forgot about him.

[Strikes Out Looking]

This list should be called the all-time short-memory acquistion list. You left off Woody Fryman (DW), Milt Pappas (?), Roberto Kelly (?), Cesar Cedeno (DW?) among others.

And if you have to ask who DW is, well just remember he made all of our recent GM's look like brain surgeons.

[Slyder]

Kelly was a Jimbo acquistion. One of the worst trades the Reds ever made, gave the Yanks a key cog to their run in the last part of the 90s.

[GAC]

I think there are numerous players that don't deserve to be on that list, and for various, differing, reasons. Now that doesn't mean I was a big fan of the player(s), or the acquisition, but....

How can you put Rolen on the list simply because you disagree with his salary? He certainly, from a performance/career perspective, shouldn't be included with the likes of a lot of dregs on that list. And simply worrying about the fact that he might get hurt doesn't qualify him either.

Hairston and Castro.... solid bench/utility players (not starters) who could play multiple positions. That is an asset. Not their fault that this organization (and manager)) didn't realize that and misplayed them. Castro, during his years with the Reds, was making anywhere from $400,000 to $950,000/year. IMO, not a great deal of money. Hairston was signed th a minor league contract going into the '08 season. Then, we signed him to a one year contract for 2M for the '09 season. Why? To begin with, AGon was still a huge uncertainty, and, 2008 was far and away Hairston's best season. He hit six home runs (most since 2001), hit .326 with a .384 OBP, stole 15 bases while only getting caught 3 times. His OPS+ was 124, easily the highest of his career.

You wouldn't have given him that one year contract?

The bullpen.... Yep, WK threw some crap up against the wall, trying to fix one of MLBs worst bullpens, to see if it would stick. No denying that. But a vast majority of those guys didn't break the bank, making somewhere around league minimum, other then guys like Cormier, who was a huge bust, and Stanton, who signed to a 2 yr deal for 5M. And yeah, Stanton sucked in 07, and was DFA'd going into 08. But what made him "appealing" to several teams, including the Reds, was not only an experienced 19 yr veteran who had some sound years, but also the fact that when he was traded to SF the previous year, he went 4-2 in the second half, with 8 saves, and a 3.09 ERA.

I bet every team in MLB could have an "All Worst Acquisition" team that would be just as impressive as the Reds, and may even exceed it.

Should KGJr be on that list? Not faulting him for the injuries; but we financially hamstrung this organization for several years, and will be paying him deferred money till around 2024 (I think). Maybe it shouldn't be classified necessarily as a "worst" acquisition", but maybe not a wise one?

[mth123]

I think there are numerous players that don't deserve to be on that list, and for various, differing, reasons. Now that doesn't mean I was a big fan of the player(s), or the acquisition, but....

How can you put Rolen on the list simply because you disagree with his salary? He certainly, from a performance/career perspective, shouldn't be included with the likes of a lot of dregs on that list. And simply worrying about the fact that he might get hurt doesn't qualify him either.

Hairston and Castro.... solid bench/utility players (not starters) who could play multiple positions. That is an asset. Not their fault that this organization (and manager)) didn't realize that and misplayed them. Castro, during his years with the Reds, was making anywhere from $400,000 to $950,000/year. IMO, not a great deal of money. Hairston was signed th a minor league contract going into the '08 season. Then, we signed him to a one year contract for 2M for the '09 season. Why? To begin with, AGon was still a huge uncertainty, and, 2008 was far and away Hairston's best season. He hit six home runs (most since 2001), hit .326 with a .384 OBP, stole 15 bases while only getting caught 3 times. His OPS+ was 124, easily the highest of his career.

You wouldn't have given him that one year contract?

The bullpen.... Yep, WK threw some crap up against the wall, trying to fix one of MLBs worst bullpens, to see if it would stick. No denying that. But a vast majority of those guys didn't break the bank, making somewhere around league minimum, other then guys like Cormier, who was a huge bust, and Stanton, who signed to a 2 yr deal for 5M. And yeah, Stanton sucked in 07, and was DFA'd going into 08. But what made him "appealing" to several teams, including the Reds, was not only an experienced 19 yr veteran who had some sound years, but also the fact that when he was traded to SF the previous year, he went 4-2 in the second half, with 8 saves, and a 3.09 ERA.

I bet every team in MLB could have an "All Worst Acquisition" team that would be just as impressive as the Reds, and may even exceed it.

Should KGJr be on that list? Not faulting him for the injuries; but we financially hamstrung this organization for several years, and will be paying him deferred money till around 2024 (I think). Maybe it shouldn't be classified necessarily as a "worst" acquisition", but maybe not a wise one?

The team traded its top pitching prospect and maxed out its salary for a .750 OPS 3B. That's a poor move IMO. If you are going to deal the top prospect and use up your salary, it shold be a move that brings a top player. Rolen isn't a top player anymore. He's a fading, aging player who no longer had much pop in his bat and is way overpaid. There were better targets for that package and Rolen would have been there this winter for less IMO.

My problem with Hairston is that he wasn't signed to be a utility player IMO. He was either going to be the SS or in a LF platoon with Dickerson. The whole Taveras in CF and judy hitting platoon in LF idea was horrible and that made the acquisitions of not only Taveras but Hairston too, just bad ideas.

Majewski, Cormier and Stanton weren't flyers that WK took. Saarloos was acquired to fix the rotation. It was a horrible move and I thought so at the time. They were calculated moves with intent to fill those roles, not guys brought in on a hope. All bad ideas. I said earlier Santos and Mays were much less bad because they were just flyers.


Castro, I might concede, was just a bench guy and most teams have guys like him. It was much less bad.

Griffey wasn't a terrible acquisition. It just didn't work out but the idea was ok.

[redhawkfish]

Even though he is a future hall of famer, and an all time Reds great. Larkin's final contract was a terribe one. Also, has any one mentioned Paul Wilson's contract?

[TheNext44]

This list should be called the all-time short-memory acquistion list. You left off Woody Fryman (DW), Milt Pappas (?), Roberto Kelly (?), Cesar Cedeno (DW?) among others.

And if you have to ask who DW is, well just remember he made all of our recent GM's look like brain surgeons.

Just a few moves by DW (Dick Wagner) to put everything into prospective:

His first two moves were to fire Sparky Anderson and let Pete Rose walk.

He claimed Free Agency was a passing fad, and refused to negotiate with any free agents.

First to Worst in one season. Turned the 1981 Reds, which had the best record in league into the 1982 Reds, which had the worst record in the league.

Traded Tom Seaver and George Foster to the Mets when the Mets had Dwight Gooden, Ron Darling, Sid Fernandez, Walt Terrell and many other solid pitching prospects, and asked for Alex Trevino, Greg Harris and Charlie Puleo instead.

When trying to dump Trevino, that team's Willy Taveras, he found only one taker, the Rangers, who for some reason offered Larry Parrish, who was worth 10 Trevino's. But Wagner turned them down, arguing that if a team was willing to offer a player as good as Parrish for Trevino, then Trevino must be worth holding onto.

[mth123]

Just a few moves by DW (Dick Wagner) to put everything into prospective:

His first two moves were to fire Sparky Anderson and let Pete Rose walk.

He claimed Free Agency was a passing fad, and refused to negotiate with any free agents.

First to Worst in one season. Turned the 1981 Reds, which had the best record in league into the 1982 Reds, which had the worst record in the league.

Traded Tom Seaver and George Foster to the Mets when the Mets had Dwight Gooden, Ron Darling, Sid Fernandez, Walt Terrell and many other solid pitching prospects, and asked for Alex Trevino, Greg Harris and Charlie Puleo instead.

When trying to dump Trevino, that team's Willy Taveras, he found only one taker, the Rangers, who for some reason offered Larry Parrish, who was worth 10 Trevino's. But Wagner turned them down, arguing that if a team was willing to offer a player as good as Parrish for Trevino, then Trevino must be worth holding onto.


These are all true. I was focusing on the last 5 years or so.

[mth123]

I don't think Rolen, Conine and Hairston are/were "all worst."

There are obviously varying degrees of bad and I'd agree that Hairston and Rolen are less bad than some others. Conine though was just awful IMO.

For the record my top 5 worst of the last few years:

5. Tony Womack - The Reds didn't really give up much to get him, but his awfulness puts him on this list by default. The fact that they cut him loose quickly instead of actually playing him holds him to number 5.

4. Rheal Cornier - the team was duped by his league low BABIP at the time of trading for him and gave him a 1 year extension to get him to accept. Then they cut him loose in spring and paid him his money from the extension given just a few months earlier.

3. Jeff Conine - The team had an opportunity to take a flyer on any of several younger RH power bats that may have been available for the taking (Jayson Werth was the example I gave earlier). The developing team could have worked one in as a platoon mate for Hatteberg while developing him for an expanded role. Instead they chose to deal for Conine who's present was in deterioration mode, his future was nil and his cost was higher. He rewarded them with an OPS below .730 which is awful at 1B and even worse when considering he only played when he had the platoon advantage. Meanwhile, the search for RH pop continues and contributed to the overpaymment for Scott Rolen.

2. Eric Milton - He could probably be number 1 and I wouldn't argue much. He was hugely over-priced and the commitment to him really buggered things up for the team while he was on the books. He was a guy who most knowledgeable fans could see was a disaster in waiting with his degenerative knee, fly ball/HR tendancies, low Ks and the bandbox park. It wasn't really a question of whether he could earn his money, but only of how bad it would get. The only thing keeping him from number one on this list was he was at least an attempt to address an actual need area on the club. The Reds didn't really have any starters worth anything when Milton was signed.

1. Willy Taveras - Easily the worst player in the majors who was signed to a two year deal when the team already had a better player for his position on the roster. The Reds needed corner OF help last year at this time, but Dickerson and any number of platoon mates (Freel, Hairston) etc. would have had CF covered and Stubbs and Heisey were on the way. The team had no need for Taveras even if he would have been a guy who could OPS 100 points higher than he did. The PAs he got in 2009 went a long way towards sinking this offense and the $4 Million owed him for 2010 is a big impediment to the team filling its holes now.

[nate]

There are obviously varying degrees of bad and I'd agree that Hairston and Rolen are less bad than some others. Conine though was just awful IMO.

For the record my top 5 worst of the last few years:

5. Tony Womack - The Reds didn't really give up much to get him, but his awfulness puts him on this list by default. The fact that they cut him loose quickly instead of actually playing him holds him to number 5.

4. Rheal Cornier - the team was duped by his league low BABIP at the time of trading for him and gave him a 1 year extension to get him to accept. Then they cut him loose in spring and paid him his money from the extension given just a few months earlier.

3. Jeff Conine - The team had an opportunity to take a flyer on any of several younger RH power bats that may have been available for the taking (Jayson Werth was the example I gave earlier). The developing team could have worked one in as a platoon mate for Hatteberg while developing him for an expanded role. Instead they chose to deal for Conine who's present was in deterioration mode, his future was nil and his cost was higher. He rewarded them with an OPS below .730 which is awful at 1B and even worse when considering he only played when he had the platoon advantage. Meanwhile, the search for RH pop continues and contributed to the overpaymment for Scott Rolen.

2. Eric Milton - He could probably be number 1 and I wouldn't argue much. He was hugely over-priced and the commitment to him really buggered things up for the team while he was on the books. He was a guy who most knowledgeable fans could see was a disaster in waiting with his degenerative knee, fly ball/HR tendancies, low Ks and the bandbox park. It wasn't really a question of whether he could earn his money, but only of how bad it would get. The only thing keeping him from number one on this list was he was at least an attempt to address an actual need area on the club. The Reds didn't really have any starters worth anything when Milton was signed.

1. Willy Taveras - Easily the worst player in the majors who was signed to a two year deal when the team already had a better player for his position on the roster. The Reds needed corner OF help last year at this time, but Dickerson and any number of platoon mates (Freel, Hairston) etc. would have had CF covered and Stubbs and Heisey were on the way. The team had no need for Taveras even if he would have been a guy who could OPS 100 points higher than he did. The PAs he got in 2009 went a long way towards sinking this offense and the $4 Million owed him for 2010 is a big impediment to the team filling its holes now.

I don't think they overpaid for Scott Rolen.

Corey Patterson was a worse deal than Conine.

[mth123]

I don't think they overpaid for Scott Rolen.

Corey Patterson was a worse deal than Conine.

Disagree on both counts.

The Reds made the decision to put their top pitching prospect on the market and take on salary. That opens a lot of possibilities. I wouldn't have used those on Rolen. Heck they could have added a couple more prospects and gotten Cliff Lee (the Phillies didn't give-up much IMO) and Lee makes less money. That would have allowed the possibilities of Dumping Harang or Arroyo for prospects and freed money to address other needs. Instead they basicaly fired their last bullet for an upgrade at 3B while the other more pressing needs go unfilled and a lot of the ability to address them was surrendered with the impact to the budget.

As for Conine vs. Patterson, well I'm not a Corey fan, but Conine was acquired to add RH pop which he failed miseraby at (and it was easy to see it coming). Patterson was acquired to cover the vast amount of turf between Griffey and Dunn and actually did that quite well. Patterson was awful as a lead-off hitter and that was also a part of his envisioned role and that is why he made my worst acquisition team, but the Reds had no one else for the role at the time. I would agree that giving him $3 Million was a joke, but he actually was quite good at the main thing he was acquired for.

[nate]

Disagree on both counts.

The Reds made the decision to put their top pitching prospect on the market and take on salary. That opens a lot of possibilities. I wouldn't have used those on Rolen. Heck they could have added a couple more prospects and gotten Cliff Lee (the Phillies didn't give-up much IMO) and Lee makes less money. That would have allowed the possibilities of Dumping Harang or Arroyo for prospects and freed money to address other needs. Instead they basicaly fired their last bullet for an upgrade at 3B while the other more pressing needs go unfilled and a lot of the ability to address them was surrendered with the impact to the budget.

I don't agree that we took on a crippling amount of salary as Toronto pitched in Rolen's 09 salary, took EE's 09 salary and contributed a mysterious 2010 amount.

I don't agree that "they could have added a couple more prospects and gotten Cliff Lee" because trades aren't done in currency where every player has X value to each team. It's variable based on need.

If Zach Stewart was the "last bullet," the Reds' gun and/or gunslinger is pretty impotent.

As for Conine vs. Patterson, well I'm not a Corey fan, but Conine was acquired to add RH pop which he failed miseraby at (and it was easy to see it coming). Patterson was acquired to cover the vast amount of turf between Griffey and Dunn and actually did that quite well. Patterson was awful as a lead-off hitter and that was also a part of his envisioned role and that is why he made my worst acquisition team, but the Reds had no one else for the role at the time. I would agree that giving him $3 Million was a joke, but he actually was quite good at the main thing he was acquired for.

I think Patterson was a worse acquisition because of Dusty's attraction to shiny things like "speed" in lieu of "ability to not make outs."

[TheNext44]

There are obviously varying degrees of bad and I'd agree that Hairston and Rolen are less bad than some others. Conine though was just awful IMO.

For the record my top 5 worst of the last few years:

5. Tony Womack - The Reds didn't really give up much to get him, but his awfulness puts him on this list by default. The fact that they cut him loose quickly instead of actually playing him holds him to number 5.

4. Rheal Cornier - the team was duped by his league low BABIP at the time of trading for him and gave him a 1 year extension to get him to accept. Then they cut him loose in spring and paid him his money from the extension given just a few months earlier.

3. Jeff Conine - The team had an opportunity to take a flyer on any of several younger RH power bats that may have been available for the taking (Jayson Werth was the example I gave earlier). The developing team could have worked one in as a platoon mate for Hatteberg while developing him for an expanded role. Instead they chose to deal for Conine who's present was in deterioration mode, his future was nil and his cost was higher. He rewarded them with an OPS below .730 which is awful at 1B and even worse when considering he only played when he had the platoon advantage. Meanwhile, the search for RH pop continues and contributed to the overpaymment for Scott Rolen.

2. Eric Milton - He could probably be number 1 and I wouldn't argue much. He was hugely over-priced and the commitment to him really buggered things up for the team while he was on the books. He was a guy who most knowledgeable fans could see was a disaster in waiting with his degenerative knee, fly ball/HR tendancies, low Ks and the bandbox park. It wasn't really a question of whether he could earn his money, but only of how bad it would get. The only thing keeping him from number one on this list was he was at least an attempt to address an actual need area on the club. The Reds didn't really have any starters worth anything when Milton was signed.

1. Willy Taveras - Easily the worst player in the majors who was signed to a two year deal when the team already had a better player for his position on the roster. The Reds needed corner OF help last year at this time, but Dickerson and any number of platoon mates (Freel, Hairston) etc. would have had CF covered and Stubbs and Heisey were on the way. The team had no need for Taveras even if he would have been a guy who could OPS 100 points higher than he did. The PAs he got in 2009 went a long way towards sinking this offense and the $4 Million owed him for 2010 is a big impediment to the team filling its holes now.

Not like it needs it, but just to add to the stupidity of the Taveras signing. He would have been arbitration eligible for 2010, just like Gomes, which means there was absolutely no reason to sign him to a second year.

If the Reds signed him to one year deal, and he had done well, then they would offer him arbitration this year, and he probably would end up making the same money he makes overall now. But if he had done poorly, like he did, then the Reds could simply non-tender him and be through with him.


Truly baffling. :confused:

[mth123]

I think Patterson was a worse acquisition because of Dusty's attraction to shiny things like "speed" in lieu of "ability to not make outs."

Valid point about Dusty. Maybe he should be number one on this list.

[Rojo]

Watching the NLCS I see Jayson Werth playing for Philly and I'm reminded of how the Reds were looking for a RH Bat in the off-season when he became available. The Reds not only passed but traded for the faded more expensive guy that he replaced (Jeff Conine). So, I put togther a quick all worst acquisition team of the most recent seasons. I've put the initials of the GM to blame after the name of the chosen disaster. In some cases it was the GM who resigned or reacquired the player who is more to blame than the guy who originally brought him in.

1B - Jeff Conine (WK)
2B - Tony Womack (DO)
SS - Royce Clayton (WK)
3B - Scott Rolen (WJ - because of what they paid to get him)
LF - Jerry Hairston (WJ - who brought him back)
CF - Willy Taveras (WJ)
RF - Quinton McCracken (WK - because they kept him over Cody Ross)
C - Paul Bako (WK)

UI - Juan Castro (WK)
4OF - Corey Patterson (WK)
PH - John Vander Wal (DO)
C- Wilkin Castillo (WJ)
U - Danny Richar (WJ)

SP - Eric Milton (DO)
SP - Kirk Saarloos (WK)
SP - Josh Fogg (WK)
SP - Ramon Ortiz (DO)
SP - Dave Williams (DO)
SW - Joe Mays (WK)
RP - Gary Majewski (WK)
RP - Mike Lincoln (WJ)
RP - Mike Burns (DO)
RP - Rheal Cormier (WK)
RP - Mike Stanton (WK)
RP - Victor Santos (WK)

No wonder Krivsky spent so much on Cordero. It seems he couldn't fix the bullpen to save his life. I'm sure there are other choices. Chime in.

I'm not sure the point of the list. All teams sort through players like this, all the time. So. If you're looking for franchise killer then you start with Jr.

[mth123]

I'm not sure the point of the list. All teams sort through players like this, all the time. So. If you're looking for franchise killer then you start with Jr.

The point was simply something to talk about in a boring time of year. If you don't want to thats OK too.

[Hap]

Post #10 and it's the first mention of D'lo Jiminez, Elizardo Ramirez, Brandon Claussen, Edwin Encarnacion, Royce Clayton, and George Kenneth Griffey, Junior.

[Scrap Irony]

I'm not sure the point of the list. All teams sort through players like this, all the time. So. If you're looking for franchise killer then you start with Jr.

Yeah, I'm with you there, rojo. It looked like a great deal at the time, but, really, Junior absolutely killed the team. His salary hamstrung the entire team structure (or at least the Reds claimed it did).

[mth123]

Yeah, I'm with you there, rojo. It looked like a great deal at the time, but, really, Junior absolutely killed the team. His salary hamstrung the entire team structure (or at least the Reds claimed it did).

I agree that Griffey ended-up having a far more negative effect, but I'm judging more on the thought process. Going for the star player to take the team to the next level after a 90+ win season is something we all hope management would do. From that aspect it doesn't rank as a miscalculation. Its number one on the list of bad deals based on how it worked out though.

[Spring~Fields]

I agree that Griffey ended-up having a far more negative effect, but I'm judging more on the thought process. Going for the star player to take the team to the next level after a 90+ win season is something we all hope management would do. From that aspect it doesn't rank as a miscalculation. Its number one on the list of bad deals based on how it worked out though.

The Reds through that period of Griffey/Larkin/Casey then later on Dunn/Griffey, the Reds seemed to have a couple stars but never seemed to get the required supporting cast to go with them. Kind of like now they have a Rolen/Votto/Phillips and lack the rest of the supporting cast to surround them.

[mth123]

The Reds through that period of Griffey/Larkin/Casey then later on Dunn/Griffey, the Reds seemed to have a couple stars but never seemed to get the required supporting cast to go with them. Kind of like now they have a Rolen/Votto/Phillips and lack the rest of the supporting cast to surround them.

Agree mostly. I'd say that Phillips and Rolen are part of the supporting cast. They are short the stars on this team. Bailey and Bruce are the best hopes.

[George Anderson]

When trying to dump Trevino, that team's Willy Taveras, he found only one taker, the Rangers, who for some reason offered Larry Parrish, who was worth 10 Trevino's. But Wagner turned them down, arguing that if a team was willing to offer a player as good as Parrish for Trevino, then Trevino must be worth holding onto.

I never heard this before. I don't doubt you, but if this is true then Wagner was worse than I realized......and I have realized him for years to be very bad!!!

[Big Klu]

Post #10 and it's the first mention of D'lo Jiminez, Elizardo Ramirez, Brandon Claussen, Edwin Encarnacion, Royce Clayton, and George Kenneth Griffey, Junior.

Was D'Angelo Jimenez really that bad? I read this on RedsZone a lot, but to me it seems like revisionist history. I know he tanked pretty hard in 2005, but he had a couple of solid seasons in 2003 (after the Reds acquired him from the ChiSox) and 2004. And the Reds didn't give up much to get him, either (minor-league pitcher Scott Dunn).

[Bill]

A year after Jr was here, I called for a trade of him to infuse the system with some much needed talent and again the next year siting that the Reds could not risk injury in so much tied up salary. These thoughts weren't met with much cheer. If only.

[REDREAD]

Castro was actually acquired twice. Once by JimBo and once by Wayne.

Jimbo's acquision of Castro wasn't bad.
At the time, the Reds had no backup infielder that could legitimately play SS.
Castro was a cheap stopgap that could field the position for the minimum.

Now you do have a point that it was silly to give Castro a long term deal after he became arb eligible.

Also, I think Walt extending EdE as opposed to nontendering EdE was a worse 3b move than picking up Rolen.

Harriston was not a bad pickup. He's an adequate backup, and paid as one. Not really his fault that he was overexposed with too much playing time.

[REDREAD]

Post #10 and it's the first mention of D'lo Jiminez, Elizardo Ramirez, Brandon Claussen, Edwin Encarnacion, Royce Clayton, and George Kenneth Griffey, Junior.

yep.. that's a good point (at least some of them).

I consider the worst moves to be when they dumped an asset of known value and got nothing back.. When we dumped Todd Walker, Williamson, Aaron Boone, etc we got a huge ZERO back. That is much more crippling long term to a franchise than signing someone like Taveras or Patterson, who cost the team an average of 3 million a year to basically stink. At least that is only a few million poorly spent. Put in perspective, some first round draft picks get comparable money and turn out to be busts, but those moves aren't under as intense scrunity. I was never a big fan of Castro, but he certainly didn't cripple the team.

I wouldn't put Jr on the all time worst list. He never won the MVPs we all hoped for, but when he was on the field, he was one of the better hitters on the team. Injuries happen. Every expert in baseball said the Reds had a steal at the time of the trade. Even John Allen thought the Reds got an amazing deal (on the day of the trade).

[Scrap Irony]

You've got to judge not only what came in the deal, but also what left. As a result, my All-Time Team looks quite a bit different than yours, mth:

C Alex Trevino
Not only was he bad, but he was the primary part of a deal that sent George Foster the other way. The first of the post-Bench catchers Red fans pinned their hopes on for 25 years. (And counting.)

1B Frank Thomas
Gave away Smoky Burgess, Harvey Haddix, and 1960 MVP Don Groat, all for a guy who'd had his career year the year before.

2B Rocky Bridges
Gave away on the National League's most-feared sluggers in Joe Adcock for a light-hitting (589 OPS, 55+ OPS+) utility player who played most of his games at 2B.

3B Willie Greene
The centerpiece of the John Wettland deal with the Expos. The Reds gave up a great arm and HOF-caliber closer for three years of meh from Greene.

SS Royce Clayton
In the middle of "contending", the Reds blew every chance they had by making this stinker of a deal for all considered.

OF Corey Patterson
Historically bad season. 'Nuff said.

OF Willy Taveras
See Patterson, Corey.

OF Harry "The Hat" Walker/ Peanuts Lowrey
Traded an MVP (Hank Sauer) for 86 games from a glorified pinch hitter and one-year wonder and 180 games of even less production primarily in the OF by Lowrey.

P Amos Rusie
HOF player but pitched only three games for the Reds before hanging them up. Who'd they give up? A pretty good arm, it turns out-- Christy Mathewson.

P Milt Pappas
You were waiting for this one. The main player back in the Robinson deal. Turns out, he was a serviceable pitcher, but Robbie went on to have truly extraordinary years with Baltimore. The one trade always mentioned in bad trades, so it has to be among the worst, right?

P Eric Milton
The Unholy Grail of Bad: injured, ineffective, and expensive.

P Woody Fryman
Gave away Tony Perez. (What is it with Cincinnati and giving away first basemen? It's not like they've had all that many to get excited about over the years.) Perez was the heart and soul of the Big Red Machine and Driessen never came close to matching his impact.

P Jimmy Haynes
After a serviceable year in 2002, the Reds could have let him go. But they signed him to a pretty steep two-year deal, while watching him drop an ERA north of 5.50 and an ERA+ of just over 50+ for 110 IP. One of the reasons the last decade has been so dismal.

RP Luis Sanchez
Never played for the Reds and was released before the Angels picked him up. Why is he on the list? Because Cincinnati gave up Juaquin Andujar. Youneverknow.

[HokieRed]

Measured as damage to old enough Reds fans' psychological health it's Pappas, Pappas, and Pappas.