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Cigar2
12-12-2002, 04:36 PM
That the Reds traded Todd Walker somewhere for two minor leaguer's.
Wasn't paying attention where Todd was traded to just the people here would like to know.

Yep I just found the info on espn.

westofyou
12-12-2002, 04:39 PM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/1212/1475990.html

2 PTBNL

redsfanva
12-12-2002, 04:39 PM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/1212/1475990.html

The Boston Red Sox have acquired second baseman Todd Walker from the Cincinnati Reds for two minor league players to be named

Walker hit .299 last season for the Reds with 11 home runs and 64 RBI.

guernsey
12-12-2002, 04:40 PM
Walker obtained for two minor leaguers
ESPN.com

The Boston Red Sox have acquired second baseman Todd Walker from the Cincinnati Reds for two minor league players to be named

Walker hit .299 last season for the Reds with 11 home runs and 64 RBI.




The announcement of the minor leaguers probably will wait until after the Rule 5 draft on Monday.

redsfan30
12-12-2002, 04:44 PM
That probably means Barry Larkin will move to second, Aaron Boone will be the everyday shortstop and we will get 162 games of Russel Branyan at third. Well, he should be good for 250 strikeouts over a full season.

NCRed
12-12-2002, 04:46 PM
What 2 may we expect ??? This would be great if we turn around and get Castillo (yea, right) Larkin will not move to second. Larson will (if we get no one else). Again, a move that doesn't address our number ONE need which is an ACE.

guernsey
12-12-2002, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by redsfan30
That probably means Barry Larkin will move to second, Aaron Boone will be the everyday shortstop and we will get 162 games of Russel Branyan at third. Well, he should be good for 250 strikeouts over a full season.

Branyan won't be ready by Opening Day, and you're forgetting about Brandon Larson.

creek14
12-12-2002, 04:46 PM
Oh boy, 2 minor league 5-tooled outfielers, no doubt.

guernsey
12-12-2002, 04:49 PM
How 'bout Freddy Sanchez? Probably not. The BoSox are probably getting Todd to keep the position warm for Freddy in '04.

4. Freddy Sanchez, ss/2b

Age: 24. B-T: R-R. Ht.: 5-11. Wt.: 185. Drafted: Oklahoma City, 2000 (11th round). Signed by: Ernie Jacobs.

Background: After leading all minor league shortstops with a .334 average in 2001, Sanchez proved that performance was no fluke. He made the Double-A Eastern League all-star team, was Triple-A Pawtucket’s player of the year and drilled a two-run single in his first big league at-bat.

Strengths: Sanchez has excellent hand-eye coordination and the ability to make consistent line-drive contact and hit for gap power. His instincts enhance his physical skills at the plate, on the bases and in the field. He has a solid average arm at shortstop and reads balls well off the bat.

Weaknesses: The knock on Sanchez always has been that he lacks pure shortstop range, though that’s a moot point with Garciaparra in Boston. The Red Sox believe Sanchez could play short if needed. After making strides with his selectivity in Double-A, he regressed in Triple-A and the majors.

The Future: A longshot to win Boston’s second-base job in spring training 2002, Sanchez is a frontrunner to become the starter in 2003. He’s playing second base in Mexico this offseason to help his cause.

M2
12-12-2002, 04:52 PM
Freddy Sanchez, Freddy Sanchez, Freddy Sanchez.

Just keep saying the name. Can't imagine he's not in the deal.

The Sox have a lot of A ball arms who might be with him (I assuming it's not Casey Fossum because it says minor league PTBNL). Billy Simon, 6'6" with velocity would be nice.

Guerns, if the Sox were going to give the job to Sanchez they'd have probably done it in 2003. IMO, Hanley Ramirez is the heir apparent at that spot and the Sox will go year-to-year until he shows.

guernsey
12-12-2002, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by creek14
Oh boy, 2 minor league 5-tooled outfielers, no doubt.

Nah, it'll be two pitchers who JimBo projects to be 12-15 game winners (like Ed Yarnall & Brian Reith).

EricDavis
12-12-2002, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by NCRed
What 2 may we expect ??? This would be great if we turn around and get Castillo (yea, right) Larkin will not move to second. Larson will (if we get no one else). Again, a move that doesn't address our number ONE need which is an ACE.

Walker would not bring us a ace, and I doubt any of these prospects will turn into a Ace, but the 3,000,000 or so that Walker gets paid next year could go to a ace.

If these kind of trades keep Griffey, Dunn, Kearns and maybe even Casey a Red, then I am all for it.

scubba steve
12-12-2002, 04:55 PM
It's Blanco and a PTNL.

Falls City Beer
12-12-2002, 04:56 PM
If we get Castillo, I agree, this one's a coup.

TRF
12-12-2002, 04:57 PM
scuba, source please?

redrum
12-12-2002, 04:57 PM
I'd be surprised if we got Sanchez. Everybody knows that Bowden has been ordered to reduce payroll. He has no leverage. My expectations for return are low.

red-in-la
12-12-2002, 04:59 PM
Casey is infintely MORE replacebale than Todd Walker.:rolleyes:

Falls City Beer
12-12-2002, 04:59 PM
Boone next? Oh please, please, please!

15fan
12-12-2002, 04:59 PM
Out with the old...

I'll say this about Walker - he seemed to get completely locked in at the plate a couple of times a season. For 2 to 3 weeks, it seemed like he hit anything and everything they threw him.

scubba steve
12-12-2002, 05:02 PM
"scuba, source please"

Well, that is what they're saying on the Boston fourms.

I'll be write back with a link.

redsrule2500
12-12-2002, 05:02 PM
If this keeps Sean a Red, then it's a great trade. I think it sure helps.

osuceltic
12-12-2002, 05:06 PM
It's not Sanchez. Not for one year of Todd Walker. What this does is allow them to include Sanchez in a bigger deal for a pitcher or first baseman.

No, these are minor leaguer to be named later for a reason. My guess is they'll be guys who aren't protected from the Rule V draft, and thus they can't be named until after the Rule V draft.

Who is Blanco, by the way? Anyone have any info on him?

scubba steve
12-12-2002, 05:07 PM
Boston's Forum (http://citadel6.ezboard.com/fbostonredsoxfrm1.showMessageRange?topicID=286.top ic&start=41&stop=52)

Plus, here is a quote out of an article...


With Blanco gone, Hillenbrand being peddled for anyone with more walks on his resume, and whispers of Nomar's availability, I fear that the Sabermetricians in the Red Sox front office are about to pull a "Newt Gingrich in 1994" over-reach.

OBP Uber Alles has come to Boston. I hope they know what they're doing. I see a LOT of people misinterpreting a very specific skill set that was/is possessed by Derek Jeter, Chuck Knoblauch, Paul O'Neil and Tino Martinez as "taking pitches," rather than "fouling off tough pitches."

Good enough for you? ;)

GAC
12-12-2002, 05:09 PM
I knew that Walker was going t be history when they announced that Larson was going to learn 2B, and that Walker would be a FA after this season.

I'll have to wait and see who we get before any evaluation can be made. But it may not be a bad deal.

15fan
12-12-2002, 05:10 PM
Do they have any more Chris Reitsmas? If so, we'll gladly take 'em all of the Red Sox hands.

I'll give JimBo credit - he's dealing with the 28 year-old GM in Beantown. Sounds like as good a candidate as any to try and fleece. Get 'em while he's still wet behind the ears...

Red Leader
12-12-2002, 05:10 PM
Tony Blanco, 3B Sarasota Red Sox.(A)


AB H AVG HR RBI SB R CS 2B 3B BB K E
244 54 .221 6 32 2 22 0 13 2 6 70 30


YIKES. I don't like him.

M2
12-12-2002, 05:11 PM
Tony Blanco, 2002, High A Sarasota, 3B

.221, .250, .365, 30 errors in 60 games.

He was Boston's #2 rated prospect a year ago. Here's what BA said:

2. Tony Blanco, 3b

Age: 20. B-T: R-R. Ht.: 6-1. Wt.: 176. Signed: Dominican Republic, 1998. Signed by:Levy Ochoa.

Background:Blanco set the Rookie-level Gulf Coast League home run record in his U.S.ndebut in 2000. He continued to show power last season despite bursitis in his right shoulder,nwhich forced him to split time between third base and DH before he had arthroscopicnsurgery in August. The Red Sox named him their player of the year at low Class A Augusta.

Strengths:Blanco has a quick bat that makes him a threat to go deep at any time and allows him to hit for average. He held his own in the South Atlantic League as a teenager despite his shoulder problems. Defensively, he has a strong arm, good body control and some quickness.

Weaknesses:Overly aggressive at the plate, Blanco will have to show better discipline against more advanced pitchers. Though managers named him the best defensive third baseman in the SAL, he needs a quicker first step and smoother footwork.

The Future:Blanco took things slowly in instructional league but should be healthy by spring training. Third base is the Red Sox’ weakest offensive position, though they’ll have to wait two or three years before Blanco is ready. He’ll move up to high Class A in 2002.

---------------------------------------------------

IMO if this is the main guy the Reds got for Walker, it's a craven salary dump.

KYRedsFan
12-12-2002, 05:13 PM
First off, let's not take what we read in other forums as the real deal (not saying it's not true, but we all know what gets posted in fan forums :evilgrin: ).

More important, is this a sign of things to come this weekend? Is Jimbo reading to break the silence of the offseason and bring home some finds from Nashville?

Falls City Beer
12-12-2002, 05:13 PM
"Sounds like as good a candidate as any to try and fleece."

I'd wager anything that it would be Epstein doing the fleecing.

But the point is moot, this is a salary dump; nothing more. I don't see any "toldyaso's" coming out of this exchange.

P.S. Brandon Larson isn't a second baseman.

scubba steve
12-12-2002, 05:15 PM
With the arrival of Blanco (who is really good prospect, just had a bad season), what happens to Edwin Encarnacion?

I remember hearing he is learning a new postion, but don't really remember.

Can someone help me out here?

scubba steve
12-12-2002, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by Falls City Beer
P.S. Brandon Larson isn't a second baseman.

No, but he is learning the position.

gm
12-12-2002, 05:17 PM
Sold high = right time to deal Walker. Hopefully the PTBNLs will pan out

Opening day leadoff hitter = Austin Kearns? Should be

osuceltic
12-12-2002, 05:17 PM
IMO if this is the main guy the Reds got for Walker, it's a craven salary dump.

If????? Of course it's a craven salary dump! What did you expect? Our only hope is that this leads to something positive simply by eliminating the contract, although it will have to be VERY positive to offset the loss of Walker. I hope no one here really thinks Brandon Larson is a second baseman. His defense is shaky at third. I'm not sure he has a position, and he still hasn't proven he can hit (to me anyway).

And if the solution is Larkin to second, Boone to short... heaven help us.

Ugh.

guernsey
12-12-2002, 05:17 PM
EdE was playing SS for Dayton at the end of last season, but most folks don't think that will be his position long term.

Red Leader
12-12-2002, 05:17 PM
I think Chris Elmore, SP AA Trenton Thunder would be a good throw in if Blanco is one of the prospects.

Elmore

GS IP W L SV ERA WHIP R ER H BB K CG SO

13 84.2 8 2 0 2.35 1.16 27 22 76 22 57 2 0

KYRedsFan
12-12-2002, 05:21 PM
This does open up a spot for Jeff Kent or Vidro :evilgrin:

red-in-la
12-12-2002, 05:22 PM
I don't like the sound of this move....seems to me, like others are saing that it is salray dump pure and simple. If youa re dumping salary like this when 2003 was your year to compete, then maybe the naysayers are right. Maybe Jimbo's lips ARE moving.

But, I still will wait and see. Maybe Larson is a superb 2B this winter. Frankly, I would be happy with any trade that gives Larson a chance to play everyday.

guernsey
12-12-2002, 05:22 PM
From Rotoworld:

Todd Walker - 2B - Cincinnati Reds Dec 12

ESPN.com is reporting that the Red Sox have acquired Todd Walker from the Reds for two minor leaguers. This looks more like a Dan Duquette move than something we'd expect out of Theo Epstein. Why acquire Todd Walker when Frank Catalanotto might become a free agent next week? Why acquire Todd Walker when Freddy Sanchez will be 90 percent of the player for 10 percent of the price?

919191
12-12-2002, 05:24 PM
Pete was a second baseman. Maybe if he is reinstated....;)

westofyou
12-12-2002, 05:24 PM
Larson will never start at 2nd for the Reds.

And if he does it will make the Deion experiment look like Cal Ripkin Version 2.0

919191
12-12-2002, 05:26 PM
Anyone recall some talk a while back about making Larue a second baseman? I really don't think that is the plan, but I do seem to recall hearing that.

scubba steve
12-12-2002, 05:28 PM
It's 2000 all over again.

This was simply a move to rid salary. And it served its purpose.

M2
12-12-2002, 05:30 PM
Rotoworld's echoing my thoughts (which is why the only way I'd have traded Walker to the Sox would be for Sanchez and I'm still a little flabbergasted that the Reds might have made a deal other than that).

Perhaps Walker's eyed as a 1B in Boston. They're likely letting Brian Daubach take a walk.

And Tony Blanco's got a horrific bad eye at the plate and he runs like a slug, not my idea of a good prospect.

scubba steve
12-12-2002, 05:34 PM
Walker is entering the last year of his contract, then he'd become a FA.

You wouldn't get much, since it is a rental.

Red Leader
12-12-2002, 05:34 PM
I read on the Red Sox forum that Theo, Red Sox new GM, had originally wanted Casey with Walker, but then changed his mind today while they wait to hear from the D-Backs on Durazo. They are apparently offering Hillenbrand for Durazo and Theo didn't want to trade for Casey while the deal was still being negotiated. Imagine if we got rid of Casey and Walker and gotten more trash back.....Terrible.

indy_dave00
12-12-2002, 05:35 PM
I hear Manny Delcarmen a 21 yr old righty is the other player.

At A ball he was 7-8 with a 4.10 era.

Worked 136 innings, 124 hits walked 56 fanned 136. Thows in 92-93 range occasionaly 95-96 mph.

scubba steve
12-12-2002, 05:39 PM
The worse part about this trade is we got prospects that are still atleast a couple years away from being in the majors.

We needed more talent in the AA level.

TRF
12-12-2002, 05:41 PM
I think we need to relax on the Blanco talk for now. No credible agency has named the ptbnl.

I'm hoping for a Reitsma/Curtice type fleecing. At least get a MI and a power arm from A ball.

haassolo
12-12-2002, 05:43 PM
Wow.....I hate being late to these posts. I am going to say my peace even if it was already said by someone else. This is a salary dump and puts us closer to either signing someone or keeping the beloved Casey. Of any of the guys that we can move Walker is the best choice followed by the catcher situation. As for SS, yes, Larkin will only play SS, to bad he does not have the foresight to move to another position like Ripken. As for other guys playing 2nd or SS it should not be a real problem. Gookie and become like Pokey and move, Larson can do it but I think that Larson is better at 3rd and boone at SS and 2nd. Plus ther is Neifi Perez still floating around. But we have the tools to fill the spot either on the 40 man, a scrub free agent or in the minors. Without Todd the team still has plenty og Pop. As for the Red Soxs, this is subtraction by addition.

KYRedsFan
12-12-2002, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by TRF
I think we need to relax on the Blanco talk for now. No credible agency has named the ptbnl.

I'm hoping for a Reitsma/Curtice type fleecing. At least get a MI and a power arm from A ball.

Thank you, let's hold off judging the trade, you know, maybe until
1. WE know the players involved
2. We know the players involved
3. We know the players involved

M2
12-12-2002, 05:52 PM
We needed more talent in the AA level.

And above.

I don't mind if there's an A-ball throw-in (and Delcarmen would be an intriguing one), but unless you're getting a bonafide top-shelf prospect then A-ball guys are too vaporous a return.

Supposedly the Sox are holding a press conference within the hour. Let's see if they mention the minor leaguers.

Red Leader
12-12-2002, 05:54 PM
would the Reds possibly give a shot to Ryan Freel, recently picked up from the Devil Rays system? I would think that they would give Larson, Gookie, or others a shot there before this guy, but I don't know much about him or his past. Rotoworld has him behind Walker on the Reds Depth chart, which doesn't really mean anything, but just wanted to hear thoughts on him.

November 19th:
Reds signed infielder Ryan Freel to a minor league contract and invited him to spring training. Freel's not a bad player, but the fact that he doesn't play shortstop may keep him from having a career as a utilityman. He hit .261 and stole 37 bases while splitting time between second base and the outfielder for Tampa Bay's Triple-A affiliate last season.

guernsey
12-12-2002, 05:55 PM
The Reds have no room to protect more players (well, they could protect one) on the 40-man roster, so I don't think they will be named yet. OTOH, the BoSox only have 28 players on their 40-man roster, so if the PTBNLs don't need protectin', they ain't worth havin'.

djeternal
12-12-2002, 05:55 PM
So is this the sign of flood gates to open in Redsland???? Who's next???? I wouldn't doubt even if they traded Jr. for 5 5-tool minor leaguers. :eek:

Thanks Uncle Bananas!!!!

guernsey
12-12-2002, 05:58 PM
My preditcion for the next player traded; Jason LaRue. Through arbitration he will make more than Stinnett next season, and the Reds have enough depth at catcher to absorb the loss.

guernsey
12-12-2002, 05:59 PM
From the Reds web site:

Reds deal Walker to Red Sox
Cincinnati gets two minor league players to be named
By Chris Haft / MLB.com

CINCINNATI -- Even before their full delegations arrived at baseball's Winter Meetings in Nashville, the Cincinnati Reds and Boston Red Sox completed a trade Thursday, with Cincinnati sending second baseman Todd Walker to Boston for a pair of minor-leaguers to be named later.

Walker likely will be penciled in as Boston's starting second baseman. The Red Sox used five players at that spot in 2002: Rey Sanchez, Freddy Sanchez, Lou Merloni, Carlos Baerga and Bryant Nelson. Rey Sanchez, who received most of the playing time while starting 97 games, is a free agent.

Walker had one of his best all-around seasons this year, batting .299 with 11 home runs and 64 RBIs in 155 games for Cincinnati. But the Reds' need to trim payroll forced them to shop him around. Walker, 29, is due to earn $3.4 million next year with $450,000 in incentive bonuses and $475,000 in award bonuses.

"The Reds want to thank Todd for all of his contributions, both on and off the field," Cincinnati general manager Jim Bowden said in a statement. "He represented the organization in a first-class manner, played the game hard every day, and he will be missed."

Cincinnati acquired Walker and outfielder Robin Jennings from Colorado on July 19, 2001, for outfielder Alex Ochoa.

The identities of the players to be named probably won't be announced until after Monday's Rule 5 draft.

PuffyPig
12-12-2002, 06:05 PM
I'll wait to hear the prospects involved. I believe that Walker had good trade value. The 2ndbaseman for the Reds in 2003 will be someone who's not now with the team. Maybe Sanchez. Maybe Belliard. Just because everyone knew that the Reds wanted to move a salary doesn't hamper Bowden much. He had many choices to move, so no one could really give him a take-it-or-leave-it ultimatum. Walker may have had a career year in 2002, so Bowden is certainly moving him at the right time. I sure hope he got his replacement at the same time.

haassolo
12-12-2002, 06:06 PM
Who cares about the prospects, it is the salary that counts. We have 3 million dollars we can use now. Look at the Rotoworl d assessment. Walker was not going to take us to the promised land and we were paying out the nose for a performance that we can cheaper from some place else. Marion Duncan didn't set the NL on fire in 90 and we somehow won the world series. For teams like the Reds it is about making wise moves. Teams like the Red Soxs and the Cubs throw around money an do not build a franchise. Walker is a waste to them because they do not need him. As for the PTNL, who cares where they are starting at or who they are, but the Reds need to take a chance on guys, you build a farm system and if only one or two guys come out, you made a good deal. These guys may not pan out, but this is talent and we can develop and if it flops it flops, but 1 out of ten is what the Reds need. This is fine trade and not a white flag, we will not miss Walker and once hte season starts we will not even know this occured.

Krusty
12-12-2002, 06:07 PM
If the Reds get Freddie Sanchez out of this deal for Todd Walker, it is a major coup. The Reds get a young player to either play shortstop or second base while clearing 3 million off the payroll for next season and possibly create more breathing room to acquire a frontline pitcher.

At least Junior and Casey are still Reds at this point.

I think this is the first of several deals to come.

djeternal
12-12-2002, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by guernsey
The identities of the players to be named probably won't be announced until after Monday's Rule 5 draft.


Uuuuggghhh.....wait till Monday????

OldXOhio
12-12-2002, 06:09 PM
Agree that Larue might be the next to go. Also, believe there will be one or two more of this nature, none involving Junior. If JB can put a couple of these salary dumps together (is anyone on here really questioning the motive of this move???), my bet is Junior remains in Cincinnati.

So which would you rather see:

a. dump Walker, Larue and either Sully or White
b. trade Griffey

I know what my answer is.

Krusty
12-12-2002, 06:09 PM
By the time Monday rolls around, we could forget about these prospects to be named if this is an indication that Bowden is going to be smokin this weekend in deals.

Red Leader
12-12-2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by haassolo
This is fine trade and not a white flag, we will not miss Walker and once hte season starts we will not even know this occured.

I would like this statement to be true. But, until I see who Walker's replacement is, I somehow doubt it. Walker was a very good player for the Reds last year. He improved defensively and offensively and was a good team player that came through with a lot of clutch hits in meaningful games. That isn't easily replaced. It can be replaced, but not easily.

Red Leader
12-12-2002, 06:14 PM
More from Rotoworld.

Red Sox acquired second baseman Todd Walker from the Reds for two players to be named.
Spending $3.4 million on a platoon second baseman just isn't a good idea for Boston, but it's unlikely that they gave up much to get Walker away from the Reds. To replace Walker, Cincinnati could switch Aaron Boone to second base and use Brandon Larson as their third baseman next season, giving Russell Branyan a chance to compete with Larson once he's healthy. The Reds could also pick up one of the inexpensive second basemen about to be non-tendered -- Carlos Febles or Ronnie Belliard -- or try to acquire Marcus Giles from the Braves.

I like the Marcus Giles idea. Put me down for that one. If we get Giles, I retract my previous post. I would forget about Walker on opening day.

haassolo
12-12-2002, 06:14 PM
Walker is easily replaced both defensively and offensively. His humber are not that impressive for his price and can be duplicated both through other players and additional support from the team

princeton
12-12-2002, 06:29 PM
if they're waiting until after Rule V, then either there's a player that the BoSox might lose in that draft (hard to believe-- BoSox are terrible) or it's a player currently on Sox 40 man roster

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/bos/team/bos_team_40manroster.jsp?club_context=mlb

Casey Fossum, anyone?

Red Leader
12-12-2002, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by princeton

Casey Fossum, anyone?

I wish, but I'm not holding my breath.

TeamBoone
12-12-2002, 06:43 PM
Speak for yourself, haasslo.

I, for one, WILL miss Todd Walker a lot. He hustled his butt off, played well for the Reds last season, and was rapidly becoming one of my favorites. I was hoping he'd improve even more in 2003 and help the Reds out even more.

I will hate seeing you in a Red Sox uni, Todd. And I will miss you.

gm
12-12-2002, 06:44 PM
"To replace Walker, Cincinnati could switch Aaron Boone to second base and use Brandon Larson as their third baseman next season"

Aaron Boone = tall rangey 2nd baseman, similar to Bobby Grich, or...Ronnie Oester

PuffyPig
12-12-2002, 06:53 PM
I'm hoping that the fact that this trade was done early is a sign that Bowed did well. If it was simply a salary dump, surely Walker was attractive enough that Bowden did not have to jump at the 1st offer. There's a few teams like the BoSox, San Diego, San Fran who needed a 2ndbaseman, so Bowden has a few options. I'm hoping he got Sanchez, but....???

red-in-la
12-12-2002, 06:59 PM
I am beginning to wonder if we are all watching the same sport. Why will Walker be soooo easy to replace? Who is his replacement?

walker ranked in the NL top 8 for 2B's in:

Average: 7th
OBP: 8th
RBI: 4th
Games: 1st
Hits: 4th
Runs: 7th
AB's: 3rd
Doubles: 3rd
Walks: 8th
OPS: 6th

Fielding PCT (amongst starters): 2nd
DP's: 6th
Errors (8): 2nd

First you guys underrate Haynes, now Walker won't be missed :rolleyes:

He is going to be missed a TON.....And I for one and rather disappointed in Bowden and this organization for dumping one of the LOWER paid players for no good reason. So the Reds save 3 mill.....do you really think that money goes to better players? No, it just goes to make Carl a few extra interest dollars in his SEP.

If Larson is NOT a 2B, then who plays 2B for 154 games like Walker did and nearly leads the league in fielding PCT and leads the Reds in BA? Who? I am open to suggestions.

gm
12-12-2002, 07:02 PM
I thought Austin Kearns led the 2002 Reds in BA

Krusty
12-12-2002, 07:04 PM
The Winter Meetings haven't officially gotten underway yet. So, Bowden fires the first shot. It won't be the last. Let's wait till the smoke clears come next Wednesday.

KYRedsFan
12-12-2002, 07:08 PM
Walker does leave a rather large hole in this lineup, and the PTBNL's either need to be ready themselves or allow someone to be brought in who can do the job. Larson's bat appeals to me but going into the season with him as a 2B is kind of iffy.

westofyou
12-12-2002, 07:09 PM
First you guys underrate Haynes, now Walker won't be missed

Perhaps it's you who overrate them?

Nah.....

SirFelixCat
12-12-2002, 07:14 PM
I agree completely with you. How do we NOT miss Walker? I'm praying that we get a solid 2b sometime during this offseason. Walker was absolutely clutch last year and it seemed when Casey, Boone, and A-Bomb were slumping, there is T- Walker and his usual solid self. I, along with RILA, will greatly miss him. I will hold judgement until I see what else Bowden does, but I'm going to miss Walker. Giles would help soften the blow, though. Living down here in Brave-central (Greenville, SC), people are pretty high on the guy. He looked quite solid last year...we can hope, right?:rolleyes:

red-in-la
12-12-2002, 07:14 PM
Killer argument WOY :rolleyes:

I knew it MUST be me who was wrong!

scubba steve
12-12-2002, 07:24 PM
One thing for sure about this trade is, it will NOT help the Reds out in 2003.

Infact, not only does it make them worse, it makes the situation now very cloudy.

Up to me, I swing a deal with Toronto and get Felipe Lopez, the young shortstop.

Keep Aaron at third, and make Larson the 2nd baseman.

But one thing for sure, right now, everything looks like a complete mess.

M2
12-12-2002, 07:34 PM
While maybe Boone or Larson could be the opening day 2B, chances are the Reds still have to bring someone into the organization to perform the job. If Sanchez comes over from the Red Sox then that mission is accomplished.

To my mind, it still makes little sense that the Reds would trade Walker to the Sox and not get back the Sox's AAA 2B who suddenly finds his route to the bigs blocked.

And I wonder if the PTBNLs will wait until after Monday because the Sox are holding someone on their 40-man roster for the Reds? Boston only has 28 guys on its protected list. The Reds have 38. Boston may be acting as Cincinnati's reserve storage facility. JimBo loves pulling moves like that.

Red Leader
12-12-2002, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by M2

To my mind, it still makes little sense that the Reds would trade Walker to the Sox and not get back the Sox's AAA 2B who suddenly finds his route to the bigs blocked.



Sanchez is not blocked in their system. The Red Sox simply acquired Walker to play on the major league team to give Sanchez another year to develop. Todd will leave Boston after next year via F.A. and Sanchez will take over in 2004.

Because CIncinnati needed to dump payroll, and because Boston agreed to take the contract for one year and has no use for him after that, I'm not looking for the Reds to get much of anything in return. Although, if Blanco is one of the minor leaguers, he does have a very high ceiling, he's just coming back from shoulder problems and needs to show a little more plate discipline. From what I've heard, he has tremendous power.

Krusty
12-12-2002, 07:40 PM
On the otherhand, I could see Bowden holding out for Sanchez in th deal for Walker. Sanchez could play either second or shortstop.

Time will tell who the two prospects are. But even though it might be a salary dump, I do think Bowden will get value in the two prospects whoever they are.

Reds1
12-12-2002, 07:40 PM
First off - I loved Walker, but if anyone had to be a salary Dump I'm glad it was Walker. I think this gives Larson a shot at playing and Larkin may move to 2nd. Not sure how they will work this.
It allows us to keep Griffey and Casey and I think they give us the biggest upside. If Casey doesn't work he will surly be dumped next season before the really big payday. If a deal was done this is it for me. Hope we get someone with potential.

Crash Davis
12-12-2002, 07:43 PM
I'm trying to keep an open-mind about this trade (whereas, if it had been Griffey for Nevin, frankly, there is no way I could have kept an open mind).

My initial reaction is that this is not such a bad trade. Even though it's just A ball prospects in return, I don't think it hurts the Reds next year as badly as, say, losing Casey. I would rather have Larson's bat in the line-up on a full-time basis than Walker's. I think you move Boone to 2B and keep Larson at 3B with Branyan as a filler starting in May. If you're going to keep Gookie and Castro, there's going to be quite a few late innings defensive switches.

A couple more thoughts:

- Blanco was injured for a good portion of the year as a 19 year old in high A. He's better than what his stats show and the reports we're hearing now.

- I expect Larkin to have a much better year. I don't think he's washed up. I just think he had an off year. I have no problem with him leading off.

- I would really like to see Belliard or Febles in a Reds uniform next season after coming off sub-par performances, the price is sure to right. Good insurance.

Kc61
12-12-2002, 07:45 PM
Walker was my favorite Red last year, possibly except for Kearns. Of course, Walker makes too much contact to stay a Red.

The whole team is very unsettled now. The infield is a mess. Nobody knows who will play and where. Casey and Griffey are on the block. The catching is completely inadequate. The most settled part of the team, believe it or not, is the starting rotation which is fair.

I hope I feel differently after the next few days. But I expected more going into a new park.

One note: why trade Walker before the Rule V draft for players who can't be named yet? Why not wait? Probably to clear some roster space for more deals. Hopefully not salary dumps.

malcontent
12-12-2002, 07:47 PM
Uh, I'll have to agree with those that are saying that this trade is gonna stink big-time.

Walker was a player. He won't be easily replaced.

Lindner/Allen suck, eternally.

I predict:

(1) Griffey traded to Seattle for Bret Boone.

(2) Aaron moves to short.

(3) Come spring training, third base is Matt Boone's to lose.

Red Leader
12-12-2002, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Crash Davis

- I would really like to see Belliard or Febles in a Reds uniform next season after coming off sub-par performances, the price is sure to right. Good insurance.

Febles, Belliard, and Giles are all Jim Bowden favorites and all are pretty much available. I can't imagine JimBo not taking a stab at least 1 of them. I don't think he has the self discipline not to.

M2
12-12-2002, 07:48 PM
RL, Sanchez is 24. Seems to me if the Sox won't play him now, chances are low they view him as a future option -- or at least as Option A. Boston can always extend Walker's deal or find someone else to plug that hole. They have money. They don't have to reflexively hold onto a minor leaguer about whom they're clearly lukewarm.

Red Leader
12-12-2002, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by malcontent
Uh, I'll have to agree with those that are saying that this trade is gonna stink big-time.

Walker was a player. He won't be easily replaced.

Lindner/Allen suck, eternally.

I predict:

(1) Griffey traded to Seattle for Bret Boone.

(2) Aaron moves to short.

(3) Come spring training, third base is Matt Boone's to lose.

LMAO. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ummmm, no I'm not. This is probably exactly what will happen.:mad: :mad: :mad:

RANDY IN INDY
12-12-2002, 08:08 PM
I will miss Walker. I thought he did a great job for the ballclub last season. His offensive production may be hard to replace. One thing that I do hope is that with Walker leaving, the Reds replace him with a righthanded bat. The batting order last season was way too lefthanded.

Far East
12-12-2002, 08:20 PM
It's obvious that the Reds could only afford at the most one more season out of Walker, but it's also obvious he'll be more difficult to replace than let's say Casey, for example. At the big league level there are only Larkin and Aaron who have been starters up the middle, but you can throw darts at the roster and could hit the names of several who have played or who could play 1B, at least serviceably: Larson, Branyon, Dunn, Griffey, Aaron, Larkin, LaRue.

HUMMER2
12-12-2002, 08:28 PM
Why not get something of value?

I hope this helps us keep Junior, but I thought TW would have more trade value. He is no CHUMP.

Oh well.

Maybe Vidro is coming with Colon?

Neo
12-12-2002, 08:33 PM
Vidro with Colon? Wow.. to the Expos that is like saying Kearns and Dunn in return. If any deal is possible for two of their players to be moved. It would be Vazquez and a Vidro. I still don't see how the Reds could make the money fit. Casey and White would surely have to be moved.

guernsey
12-12-2002, 08:43 PM
BOSTON -- Todd Walker became Boston's regular second baseman Thursday when he was obtained from the Cincinnati Reds in Theo Epstein's first trade as general manager of the Red Sox.

Walker, only seven months older than the 28-year-old Epstein, replaces Rey Sanchez, who became a free agent after not being offered arbitration.

Boston gave up two minor leaguers for Walker, who has a .292 batting average in seven seasons with Minnesota, Colorado and Cincinnati. The players going to the Reds will be identified within six months and do not depend on Walker's performance in Boston, Epstein said.

Walker hit .299 with 11 homers in 155 games last season. An average fielder much of his career, he led NL second basemen with a .989 fielding percentage last season. He has one year left on his contract at $3.4 million in addition to $450,000 in incentive bonuses and $475,000 in award bonuses.

Epstein made the deal the day before baseball's winter meetings in Nashville and said he joked with Walker that "it's my first trade. He's got to make me look good."

"I don't look at it as my first trade," Epstein said. "That would be really selfish. I just look at it as a chance for the organization to get better."

Walker has hit leadoff, but Epstein said center fielder Johnny Damon likely would continue in that spot, although the decision will be made by manager Grady Little.

Walker is "a very good everyday player at a position of need at a reasonable cost," Epstein said.

Epstein was named general manager Nov. 25, replacing interim GM Mike Port. His first acquisition was pitcher Ryan Rupe, claimed off waivers from Tampa Bay.

Walker is expected to play a bigger role than Rupe with Boston after batting .290 or better in each of his last three seasons.

Last season "was the best season that I've had in the big leagues to this point," Walker said. "It kind of catapulted me to the point that I'm at now."

He was comfortable in Cincinnati and surprised by the trade, but said it was "a step forward in my career."

The Reds acquired Walker in July 2001 from Colorado with outfielder Robin Jennings for Alex Ochoa. His career high batting average is .316 in 1998 with Minnesota. He hit. 296 in 2001 and totaled 77 doubles the past two years.

The lefthanded hitter thinks his ability to hit to the opposite field should result in hits off Fenway Park's left field wall.

"I think that's going to make a huge difference in my average and how many doubles I hit," Walker said.

Sanchez, 35, spent one season with Boston, hitting .286 and fielding well.

The trade means infielder Freddy Sanchez, one of Boston's top prospects, will likely spend next season in the minors rather than be rushed to the majors.

Epstein said he expects to talk with all major league clubs in Nashville and still has payroll flexibility after obtaining Walker.

"His acquisition is not going to limit us in any way in fulfilling our offseason game plan," Epstein said. "If Todd goes out and does this year what we think he's going to do, he'd be a bargain at almost any price.

Epstein said he still wants to help the bullpen, add a starting pitcher, improve at first base and designated hitter and obtain an extra outfielder who can back up in center field.

Red in DC
12-12-2002, 08:52 PM
I'm sorry to see Walker go. And I agree with others who have said he will not be easily replaced. He proved himself to be a quality player both at the plate and in the field, and I don't see a 2B on the Reds waiting to take his place. The other thing that bothers me about the trade is that it confirms what was suspected - the Reds are all about dumping salary while moving into GAB. No way does this makes the Red better in 2003.

backbencher
12-12-2002, 08:54 PM
The Red Sox message boards are fairly confident that the minor leaguers are Josh Thigpen and Tony Blanco. And they are not happy.

buckeyenut
12-12-2002, 08:54 PM
Only reason you don't announce now is because at least one of these guys is on the 28 man roster for Boston. Freddy sanchez becomes an obvious candidate.

Sanchez is an unproven commodity. Walker is proven, solid and cheap for Boston.

Sanchez and Blanco for Walker would make complete sense and be a good deal for both teams. Sanchez and Fossum for Walker would be a fleecing. Anything else, we will see.

guernsey
12-12-2002, 09:04 PM
Only reason you don't announce now is because at least one of these guys is on the 28 man roster for Boston. Freddy sanchez becomes an obvious candidate.


I think the reason they haven't been named now is because they're both eligible to be selected in the Rule 5 draft. It would be a real kick in the pants to trade for a guy and then have him selected in the Rule 5 draft off of your roster. Better to have him picked off of the BoSox roster and to get a replacement for him in the trade.

It makes no sense if the guy is on the BoSox 28-man roster. The Reds have to make room for him somehow. The Reds aren't going to lose anyone off of their 40-man roster in the Rule 5 draft. A player on the BoSox 40-man roster isn't going to be selected in Rule 5. If the Reds need to make room on the 40-man roster, it really doesn't matter if that spot is created before or after the Rule 5 draft because to remove a player will require that he clear waivers.

I'm more and more convinced the Reds are not getting Freddy Sanchez in this trade.

Redny
12-12-2002, 09:12 PM
Couldn't be that the Reds wanted to have an open spot, or two on the 40 man until after Monday. Thus leaving the Red Sox to protect one or both of the players until then?

guernsey
12-12-2002, 09:16 PM
And if they select a player in Rule 5, they have to waive someone immediately when the player acquired from the BoSox is announced.

I guess it works in the Reds favor if they don't select a Rule 5 guy. That was they won't have waived a player just to have the option of selecting in the Rule 5 draft.

But I'll stick to my prediction that it isn't Freddy Sanchez coming to the Reds.

Redny
12-12-2002, 09:22 PM
I also doubt it will be Sanchez. But if it isn't, it doesn't leave much young available talent on the Red Sox 40 man roster anyhow.

backbencher
12-12-2002, 09:27 PM
I really can't imagine any scenario under which Freddy Sanchez would come to Cincinnati as part of the deal. Even setting aside the Boston message board talk -- which I tend to credit in this instsance -- GMs just don't make many one-for-one type deals. And that would hold doubly true where Epstein would be wagering $4 million plus a prospect that Walker would outperform Sanchez. Plus, Walker is the kind of player who could draw a prospect with upside, but that prospect would have to be a low-minors/high risk guy, not a high-minors one.

guernsey
12-12-2002, 09:31 PM
Red Sox get Walker, Reds get savings
By Jim Callis
December 12, 2002

After ending the Jose Offerman debacle, the Red Sox went with a defensive-minded second baseman in Rey Sanchez in 2002. On Thursday, they switched gears and focused on offense for 2003, acquiring Todd Walker from the Reds for two minor league players to be named sometime after Monday's Rule 5 draft.

Walker, 29, was one of the best second baseman in college history and led Louisiana State to the 1993 College World Series championship before the Twins drafted him in 1994's first round. He never fit in with Minnesota manager Tom Kelly, and was traded to the Rockies in 2000 and the Reds in 2001. Walker batted .299-11-64 in 155 games with Cincinnati this year, production in line with his career totals of .292-58-313 in 749 games. He's a line-drive hitter who makes consistent contact, capable of amassing plenty of doubles (42 in 2002) and occasional home runs. Walker is an average runner on the basepaths and has worked to make himself into a competent second baseman. A lefthanded hitter, he has improved his performance against southpaws dramatically, batting .269 and .278 the last two seasons, compared to .237 before that.

The main reason Cincinnati traded Walker is that he'll make $3.4 million in 2003, with another $925,000 possible in bonuses. With Rey Sanchez a free agent, Red Sox prospect Freddy Sanchez (no relation) was a leading contender for the second-base job before the addition of Walker. Sanchez now likely will get some more time in Triple-A, where he can work on his plate discipline and get more time at second base after playing shortstop for most of his pro career.

Once the players to be named are identified, we'll analyze them as well.

guernsey
12-12-2002, 09:48 PM
Red Sox acquire Todd Walker
By Brita Meng Outzen / MLB.com


BOSTON -- Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein hasn't even left for the Winter Meetings yet and he's already checked off one item on his holiday shopping list: a starting second baseman.

The Red Sox acquired 29-year-old Todd Walker from the Cincinnati Reds Thursday in exchange for two minor league players to be named.

"We're acquiring Todd to be our everyday second baseman," Epstein said. "He is a solid hitter and has pop and hits to all fields."

The left-handed hitter batted .299 with 11 home runs and 64 RBIs in 155 games for Cincinnati last season, establishing career highs in hits (183), doubles (42) and RBIs. In seven years in the Majors, Walker has a .292 average with a .349 on-base percentage and .435 slugging percentage.

Walker committed just eight errors in 2002 for a .989 fielding percentage and led all National League second basemen with 314 putouts. He enters the 2003 season with a 41-game errorless streak, six games short of his career high.

"I feel very blessed to all of a sudden be a member of the Boston Red Sox," said Walker. "A move from the Reds to the Boston Red Sox is a step forward in my career and I'm real excited about it."

Walker succeeds Rey Sanchez, now a free agent, as Boston's regular second baseman. Although he had made only four errors in the field, Rey Sanchez hit .286 with 12 doubles, three triples and just one homer last season.

"The way baseball has evolved, the good teams have good offensive second basemen," Epstein said. "It takes the load off the rest of your lineup."

Rookie Freddy Sanchez, who was viewed as a possible replacement at second, will likely spend the entire 2003 season at Triple-A Pawtucket, according to Epstein. Sanchez is still learning the second base position after rising through the Boston organization as a shortstop. The Red Sox GM called the young infielder personally to inform him of the Walker trade.

Walker, who admitted he was a little surprised by the trade, doesn't expect to have any difficulties making the adjustment to his new ballpark.

"I hit a lot of balls to left," the second baseman said, "so I'm going to be pinning that wall pretty good."

If anything, Walker is happy he no longer has to face anybody on the Red Sox pitching staff.

"I have some very ugly memories of facing Pedro Martinez, so that's a bonus that I don't have to do that any more," said Walker, who played with Minnesota from 1996 through 1999. "And I faced Derek Lowe during Spring Training, and he's no picnic either."

Walker, who is signed through 2003, is due to earn $3.4 million next year with $450,000 in incentive bonuses and $475,000 in award bonuses. But Epstein emphasized that Walker's salary would not affect Boston's offseason game plan.

"We have some payroll flexibility -- not unlimited, but enough to meet our goals," said Epstein, who still has a shopping list as he leaves for the Winter Meetings in Nashville, Tenn., on Friday morning. The Red Sox are still looking to solidify the bullpen, perhaps add a starter, make improvements at first base and designated hitter and add another outfielder who can play center.

Red Ball Express
12-12-2002, 09:49 PM
This must be Carl's way of getting back at the fans for tricking him into re-signing Barry Larkin. Besides, he can make a down payment on a good republican congressman for what he was paying Walker :D

Griffey30
12-12-2002, 09:57 PM
Does anyone have a link to the Red Sox 40 man roster?

With only 28 guys on it I think we should be able to narrow it down quit a bit.


No comment on the trade til monday.

Red Leader
12-12-2002, 09:59 PM
40-man Roster
Pitchers B/T Ht Wt DOB
44 Rolando Arrojo R/R 6-4 235 07/18/68
17 Willie Banks R/R 6-1 202 02/27/69
19 John Burkett R/R 6-2 211 11/28/64
74 Jorge De La Rosa L/L 6-1 195 11/05/81
43 Alan Embree L/L 6-2 190 01/23/70
15 Casey Fossum L/L 6-1 160 01/09/78
61 Wayne Gomes R/R 6-2 225 01/15/73
53 Josh Hancock R/R 6-3 220 04/11/78
46 Bob Howry L/R 6-5 220 08/04/73
32 Derek Lowe R/R 6-6 215 06/01/73
-- Brandon Lyon R/R 6-1 175 08/10/79
73 Anastacio Martinez R/R 6-2 180 11/03/78
45 Pedro Martinez R/R 5-11 180 10/25/71
57 Juan Pena R/R 6-5 215 06/27/77
-- Ryan Rupe R/R 6-6 240 03/31/75
-- Andy Shibilo R/R 6-7 220 09/26/76
49 Tim Wakefield R/R 6-2 215 08/02/66

Catchers B/T Ht Wt DOB

28 Doug Mirabelli R/R 6-1 228 10/18/70
33 Jason Varitek S/R 6-2 230 04/11/72

Infielders B/T Ht Wt DOB

23 Brian Daubach L/R 6-1 235 02/11/72
5 Nomar Garciaparra R/R 6-0 185 07/23/73
29 Shea Hillenbrand R/R 6-1 210 07/27/75
26 Lou Merloni R/R 5-10 200 04/06/71
52 Freddy Sanchez R/R 5-11 185 12/21/77
53 Angel Santos S/R 5-11 178 08/14/79

Outfielders B/T Ht Wt DOB

50 Benny Agbayani R/R 6-1 225 12/28/71
18 Johnny Damon L/L 6-2 190 11/05/73
7 Trot Nixon L/L 6-2 210 04/11/74
24 Manny Ramirez R/R 6-0 215 05/30/72
67 Dernell Stenson L/L 6-1 230 06/17/78

guernsey
12-12-2002, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by Griffey30
Does anyone have a link to the Red Sox 40 man roster?

With only 28 guys on it I think we should be able to narrow it down quit a bit.


No comment on the trade til monday.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/features/03ale40.html#redsox

buckeyenut
12-12-2002, 10:12 PM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/1212/1475990.html
"ESPN's Peter Gammons reported Thursday that the players to be named are third baseman Tony Blanco and RHP Josh Thigpen"

Josh Thigpen
6-6 4.20 A ball

http://augustachronicle.com/stories/082902/gja_game.shtml

We've seen Blanco and Walker's stats.

I like Blanco's upside and this kid looks OK, but without Sanchez back, I don't like it. BUT, I will give the Reds some time. This move obviously precludes others.

we'll see come opening day what this team looks like.

Greenhills Pioneer
12-12-2002, 10:14 PM
I hate to see Walker go, but this isn't the worst thing in the world. 2B who can hit are hard to come by. He will be missed, but Walker wasn't by any means a key cog in the lineup. He was a good hitter who makes the lineup "less weak" rather than "more strong" if that makes any sense. He isn't a key cog in the lineup, but gives them a solid bat at the bottom of the lineup which is desperately needed here with tons of terrible bats and hitters prone to extended slumps. I think Aaron Boone can fill his shoes and perhaps even exceed what Walker did though.

In my opinion, Walker and Boone were the only two candidates for the 2B job. Keeping both would have been a luxury the Reds appearently cannot afford. Personally, I am disappointed that the more fundementally sound hitter was the one to go. That seems to be a theme here unfortunately. However, Boone is the more talented of the two, even if he is more expensive.

If this helps them keep Griffey though, I am 100% behind this then.

In my opinion, the idea of Larson moving to 2B is laughable. This is much worse than making Boone the SS. A Boone-Larson middle infield would probably be the worst in MLB history!!!!! The offense doesn't even come close to making up for what you lose defensively.





Originally posted by redsfan30
That probably means Barry Larkin will move to second, Aaron Boone will be the everyday shortstop.....

No, it should be the other way around. Larkin stays at SS because he is better defensively than Boone. Boone goes to 2B to make room for Larson at 3B.



Originally posted by haassolo
Wow.....I hate being late to these posts. I am going to say my peace even if it was already said by someone else. This is a salary dump and puts us closer to either signing someone or keeping the beloved Casey. Of any of the guys that we can move Walker is the best choice followed by the catcher situation. As for SS, yes, Larkin will only play SS, to bad he does not have the foresight to move to another position like Ripken. As for other guys playing 2nd or SS it should not be a real problem. Gookie and become like Pokey and move, Larson can do it but I think that Larson is better at 3rd and boone at SS and 2nd. Plus ther is Neifi Perez still floating around. But we have the tools to fill the spot either on the 40 man, a scrub free agent or in the minors. Without Todd the team still has plenty og Pop. As for the Red Soxs, this is subtraction by addition.

No, Larkin will play SS because he is the only viable candidate. Until someone proves they can fill the position defensively as well as offensively, SS is Larkin's. Boone has neither the arm nor range to be an everyday SS. Larkin probably doesn't have the arm anymore, but he still has enough range. Hopefully Larkin's struggles last year were due to injury and not a huge decline in his skills. I am one of the few who believe that Larkin could bounce back offensively because his success is based more on fundementals and intelligence than great physical skill. If he could draw 60BB per 500PA and keep his BA and defense respectable, it would be enough to merit a place in the starting lineup on a daily basis in my opinion.

Boone
Casey
Griffey
Kearns
Dunn
Larson
Larkin
LaRue/Miller

This isn't too bad.

westofyou
12-12-2002, 10:31 PM
Killer argument WOY

Thanks... but I've given up trying.

Roll your eyes at someone else

Colorado Red
12-12-2002, 10:32 PM
ESPN's Peter Gammons reported that the Reds get 3rd baseman Tony Blanco & RHP Josh Thigpen for Walker. :lol:

Red Leader
12-12-2002, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by buckeyenut
[B

Josh Thigpen
6-6 4.20 A ball

[/B]

Any relation to Bobby Thigpen?

red-in-la
12-12-2002, 10:35 PM
Back at ya' WOY :rolleyes:

princeton
12-12-2002, 10:35 PM
Tony Blanco has 4 tool bust written all over him

Thigpen had better be the Truth

Griffey30
12-12-2002, 10:38 PM
I can't understand why the Reds wouldn't anounce the PTBNL unless one of them are on the Red Sox 40 man roster.

I don't think either one of the guys names are going to be taken in the draft.

Can anyone explain this???

backbencher
12-12-2002, 10:42 PM
Thigpen had better be the Truth

Seems like an awfully high standard to which to hold the swag for Todd ""fool's gold" Walker in a balloon/walk year.

If the prospects are decent (and I think both were in the Red Sox 2002 top ten, not that that's saying much) and the Reds adequately cover 2B at a cheaper price (not Juan Castro), then the deal is fine.

Krusty
12-12-2002, 10:48 PM
People......the Winter Meetings haven't officially gotten underway yet. I do believe though Bowden has Walker's replacement in mind whether it is another trade or even Larson moving to second.

What this deal does is create payroll space to possibly add a frontline starting pitcher in another deal.

Griffey30
12-12-2002, 10:50 PM
Krusty
I thing you might be dreaming if you think this trade was made to free up money to add another player.

I think this trade was made to get us closer to the $55 million.

Sorry

guernsey
12-12-2002, 10:51 PM
10. Josh Thigpen, rhp

Age: 20. B-T: R-R. Ht.: 6-4. Wt.: 195. Drafted: HS–Greenville, Ala., 2000 (16th round). Signed by: Joe Mason.

Background: An all-state performer in baseball, basketball and football in high school, Thigpen is one of the organization’s better athletes. In 2002, he developed a knot in the back of his shoulder that sidelined him at times and relegated him to the bullpen and strict pitch counts for much of the year. He came on in the final month, with a 1.08 ERA, 23 strikeouts and a .143 opponent average in 25 innings.

Strengths: Thigpen has the best fastball in the system and is capable of reaching 96 mph. His solid average curveball returned by the end of the season. While he’s very much a work in process, his athleticism should enable him to eventually repeat his delivery and develop command.

Weaknesses: Thigpen has spent relatively little time pitching, dividing himself among three sports in high school and working a total of 125 innings in three pro seasons. As a result he’s very raw. His changeup and control are rudimentary, and he lacks touch.

The Future: If Thigpen can make the transition from two-pitch thrower to three-pitch pitcher, he can be a frontline starter. He’ll begin 2003 in Class A, most likely in Sarasota.

M2
12-12-2002, 11:25 PM
Blanco and Thipgen. Eek.

Those are two big-time projects. Got to figure Thigpen's headed for the pen if he doesn't show some aptitude on his other pitches.

I wonder if the Reds slot Blanco in Dayton behind Encarnacion in Potomac or if they try Encarnacion at SS.

This trade reminds me a lot of the Michael Tucker deal. The Reds moved salary and got a real questionable return. IMO they undersold, in fact undersold is a serious understatement. An everyday 2B (who BTW is going to hit very well in Fenway Park) should fetch at least one polished or high profile prospect, even in a salary dump.

Think about what the Reds gave for Brain Moehler. Think about what they got for Todd Walker. In just two deals you've got less talent in your majors and less in your minors. The Reds can't afford to both overpay and undersell like that.

RedRoser
12-12-2002, 11:42 PM
No matter how much I want it, we won't get Tejeda (thereby moving Larkin or Boone to 2nd) or Castillo. I would be overjoyed if it were to be Alfonzo, Vidro or Kent, but would settle on Giles.
More than likely, however, it will be Boone or Stynes. PLEASE GOD don't let it be Castro! :p

What would it take to get Giles from Atlanta---Sean Casey maybe?
Or a blockbuster deal involving Griffey, Gabe White and other players on both ends? :eek:

---'Roser

alexad
12-12-2002, 11:46 PM
I agree with Krusty. The move was only made because something else is going to happen and Bowden has a replacement lined up for Walker.

Bowden has been pretty tight lipped and Bam, he makes the first of many trades to improve this team.

better red
12-13-2002, 12:19 AM
Sounds like Thigpen is still working on that second pitch. Another failed starter bullpen candidate. On Blanco, the writer said he had a hard time coming up with a 9 and 10 for Boston's list. Another toolsy bust. 3.4 mill is not much to pay for a solid 2B. The fans will be lining up for GAB tickets after this bold move.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7. Josh Thigpen, RHP
HT: 6-2 WT: 195 Bats: R Throws: R 2003 AGE: 21 on 6/27/03

The Skinny: Moved to a long relief/swingman role following a pair of rough starts in April, Thigpen responded with continued improvement throughout the season, including a 1.08 ERA after August 1st and 10 scoreless innings in his final two outings, allowing just one hit. Thigpen has an ideal physical build and a smooth delivery. His fastball has been recorded as high as 96 mph, but usually sits in the 92-94 range. He has rarely needed anything but a fastball, and while his curveball has the potential of being a plus pitch, his change up still needs plenty of work.

2003 Outlook: Like Delcarmen and Dumatrait, Thigpen just needs consistent work to improve. He'll most likely get another shot at the starting rotation with Sarasota.

Team/League/Level G GS W L ERA IP H HR R ER BB SO H/9 BB/9 K/9
Augusta (Southern - AA) 25 9 6 6 3.92 82.2 76 5 45 36 45 87 8.27 4.90 9.47

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

9. Tony Blanco, 3B
HT: 6-1 WT: 175 Bats: R Throws: R 2003 AGE: 22 on 11/10/03

The Skinny: Blanco's season for the most part was a complete nightmare. Unable to play until June because of a broken wrist suffered in spring training, Blanco had a double and a triple in his 1st game of the season, but slumped through the majority of June and July with his average sitting well under .200 for the majority of the season. He finished strong, batting .327 (18-for-55) in his final 16 games, leaving open the possibility that the wrist was bothering him for the majority of the season. Scouts still love his quick power bat, and while he needs to work on his defensive fundamentals, he has one of the better infield arms in the system. His patience at the plate has always been poor, and it complete abandoned him in 2002, as he walked just twice in June and July, a span of 43 games.

2003 Outlook: Blanco won't turn 21 until early next week, so there is still plenty of time for him to turn it around and start putting up the numbers to match his glowing scouting reports. A return visit to Sarasota is his most likely destination for 2003.

Team/League/Level G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG
Sarasota (Florida State - A) 65 244 22 54 13 2 6 32 6 70 2 0 .221 .250 .365

chiliman
12-13-2002, 12:25 AM
I echo the fact that Brandon is not a 2B, he can't even hold the line at 3rd.

Old Red Guard
12-13-2002, 02:39 AM
I would welcome the addition of a prospect like Thigpen in this deal if the Reds were noted for developing raw young pitchers into quality big leaguers. The fact is the opposite. I'd rather see us get raw young hitters who we DO seem to be able to develop.
Until we know for sure I am not knocking the trade - Sanchez and Blanco would be a terrific deal in a future sense but I doubt Sanchez is part of the deal.

guernsey
12-13-2002, 09:07 AM
Baseball America completed their trade analysis now that the two minor leaguers have names.


Thigpen, 20, signed as a 16th-round pick out of an Alabama high school in 2000 and was considered one of the Boston system's better athletes. He went 6-6, 3.92 in 25 games at low Class A August in 2002, when he was bothered by a knot in the back of his shoulder. He was sidelined for stretches and relegated to the bullpen and strict pitch counts for most of the year. His 96-mph fastball was the best among Red Sox farmhands and he also has a solid average curveball. But he's also very raw in terms of his changeup, command and feel.

Considered the top position player in the system the previous two years, Blanco has seen his stock fallen considerably and was light years behind Shea Hillenbrand and Kevin Youkilis on Boston's depth chart. The 21-year-old Blanco, who signed out of the Dominican Republic in 1998, still has impressive power tools. His pop and infield arm remained the class of the Boston organization until the trade. But he has hit just .248 in two years of full-season ball, and his 148-23 strikeout-walk ratio during that time is even more damning. The Red Sox have worked extensively with him, and he'll show signs of making adjustments in batting practice, but Blanco doesn't carry his lessons into game action. His swing gets too long, and he flies open in his stance trying to pull pitches way out of the park. After shoulder problems cost him time in 2001, he was missed the first two months of 2002 when an errant pitch broke his left hand in spring training. He wound up hitting .221-6-32 in 65 games at Augusta. Blanco doesn't move especially well at third base, but he does have a cannon for an arm.

This was new Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein's first trade, and it reveals the new regime's emphasis on on-base percentage and pitchability, as opposed to raw tools. Thigpen and Blanco have high ceilings but also an extreme lack of polish, and thus Boston deemed them expendable.

guernsey
12-13-2002, 09:18 AM
Comments from TeamOneBaseball.com

11/24/2002 12:01:39 PM - 2003 Scouting Report

Blanco burst on the scene two years ago and I considered him one of the best lower-level prospects in the game. He showed tremendous bat-speed and a very strong arm at third base.

But he’s gone backwards since, and has made few adjustments at the plate. The raw ability is there, but Blanco hasn’t been able to take it up a notch and I no longer see him as the blue-chip prospect he was two years ago.

At 6-1, Blanco has put on considerable weight and checks in now at 220 lbs. Most of it’s upper body muscle as his lower body is not quite as thick.

Blanco still generates very good bat-speed and has a hard charge out of his trigger. His plate balance is outstanding and the ball jumps off of his bat. You watch him in batting practice and still think he’s a future #3 hitter.

But his discipline leaves much to be desired and the Red Sox are frustrated at his lack of development in this area. Blanco swings at balls in the dirt and doesn’t wait well on curveballs. He has such good athletic balance and such quick hands, you’d think he’d have no problems at all, but Blanco doesn’t have the right approach.

For high Single-A Sarasota, Blanco hit .221-6-32 in another injury-shortened season where he came to bat only 244 times. He earned only six walks and struck out 70 times.

Injuries are partly to blame, but the Red Sox are going to want to see something more from Blanco’s bat in 2003 when he’ll likely return to Sarasota.

He’s failed to make strides defensively as well. Blanco’s arm is still very strong, but he throws erratically and he’ll never play a big league third base the way he is right now. Blanco’s agility is a little less with the added weight, but could be adequate if he learns a good first step. His hands are borderline, but workable. The outfield might be his best option; perhaps his arm would be a howitzer out there and he’d be more relaxed.

Blanco will play the year out as a 22 year-old.

OldXOhio
12-13-2002, 09:43 AM
the only way this team acquires a frontline pitcher is if Junior goes. Otherwise, this move was a salary dump, pure and simple.

Krusty
12-13-2002, 10:02 AM
Bowden moves Gabe White's salary for prospects will free up nearly seven million dollars to possibly sign a free agent. Could we see Edgar Alfonzo be the Reds second baseman next season?

Could we see a blockbuster involving the likes of Tony Armas and Jose Vidro coming to the Reds?

Stay tuned.

BigRedOne
12-13-2002, 10:07 AM
Call me jaded or whatever, but I think this is just what it appears to be. A salary dump. The savings for the trades this winter (and they will All result in savings, will go to Mr Lindners pocket. I too liked Todd Walker and am frustrated that we had to trade him so Lindner could profit MORE.

OldXOhio
12-13-2002, 10:40 AM
this FO has shown nothing to make any of us think they're going to pull off a trade that will push their budget to the limit.

again, I think the only way we add a frontline player, pitcher or everyday, is thru an addition by subtraction (griffey) principle.

Gary Redus
12-13-2002, 11:17 AM
Todd Walker is a solid ball player. All success, contending teams have guys like him on the club. Run him out there, he does his job. He is not a star but is an asset. The big problem is allocation of funds. I wish we could afford him. Contending teams have few question marks going into Spring Training. This is a salary dump, but may (fingers crossed) be a precursor to other moves filling in the holes. We'll see.

MikeS21
12-13-2002, 11:18 AM
Call me jaded or whatever, but I think this is just what it appears to be. A salary dump. The savings for the trades this winter (and they will All result in savings, will go to Mr Lindners pocket. I too liked Todd Walker and am frustrated that we had to trade him so Lindner could profit MORE.


this FO has shown nothing to make any of us think they're going to pull off a trade that will push their budget to the limit.
In order to add quality talent, the Reds have to clear roster space and payroll room. Everyone has been screaming for a leadoff hitter for the last two years. Where do you expect him to play? Since trading Junior or Casey is a salary dump, that means your three OF positions and 1B are set. Larkin and ABoone aren't going anywhere. And very few catchers make good lead-off hitters. That leaves 2B. But if you don't trade Todd Walker, where does you lead-off hitter play, and how is this team different from last year? You all complain cause they don't do anything and then you complain when they do.

Tood Walker was a good player. He played hard and hustled. But if the Reds are EVER going to get a lead-off hitter, Walker would have been the one to replace.

There are NO free agents on the market worth WASTING money over. Quit accusing Lindner of lining his pockets because he hasn't overpaid for some high-priced, over-the-hill free agent.

Folks, WAIT until Opening Day before you assemble the lynch mob. You'll feel pretty stupid if your Opening Day 2B is Castillo or Vidro or someone like that. But you got to trade Walker before you can plug in a Vidro or Castillo, or whoever. JimBo is smart enough to know that there is a gaping hole at 2B that Larson or Larkin isn't going to fill. If he can get a decent 2B, then even if Gookie Dawkins or Ranier Olmedo eventually takes over at SS, the line-up won't be horrible.

Krusty and other are right. This was the FIRST of several moves. Don't get antsy. You may see a couple more moves like this (White/Sullivan) before the deck is cleared for the "good" trades.

haassolo
12-13-2002, 11:23 AM
This thread is out of control. This is longer then most of the game threads

guernsey
12-13-2002, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by haassolo
This thread is out of control. This is longer then most of the game threads

Would you prefer 10 separate threads with 13 replies each?

OldXOhio
12-13-2002, 11:33 AM
kinda like JB was smart enough to know the rotation was lousy going into the 2002 season?

if we do land a castillo or vidro, stupidity is the last thing I will feel. But like I inferred, I'll believe it when I see it.

MikeS21
12-13-2002, 11:35 AM
guernsey's right (as usual!;) )

We don't need 25 different threads on this trade. I was thinking earlier how great it was that there are only a minimum of threads on this subject. You don't have to read thru the entire thread every time just to see what the last poster had to say.

haassolo
12-13-2002, 11:35 AM
I am having a hard time keeping up and finding out who is responding to who.

MikeS21
12-13-2002, 11:40 AM
kinda like JB was smart enough to know the rotation was lousy going into the 2002 season?
I'm not sure what you are getting at here.

But as it turned out, the 2002 pitching rotation was the least of the Reds' worries. You cannot blame the rotation for what went wrong in 2002. Seems to me Bowden was smart enough to see that the rotation was better than any of us gave credit for. If the hitting and the bullpen had held up, the Reds would have made the post-season.

OldXOhio
12-13-2002, 11:44 AM
my point was, going into the season, the 2002 rotation was widely regarded as the worst in the league and JB was unable to do a thing about it. Why? For the same reasons that he faces this season - his hands are tied due to financial constraints from the brass.

I like JB and agree he's smart - it's just sometimes he's not able to do what he thinks is needed.

M2
12-13-2002, 11:48 AM
Mike, while you're probably right that the Reds will make a number of moves in the coming days, weeks and months, that doesn't change the basics of this deal.

The Todd Walker trade IS as a salary dump and the Reds DID NOT receive any particularly enticing prospects in return. Even if Luis Castillo ends up in town (making me one happy camper), the Reds still failed to get much of anything in return for a productive everyday 2B.

Red Leader
12-13-2002, 11:52 AM
I do think that the Reds could have done much better in this deal, even though it was a salary dump. How many LH good offensive 2nd basemen are there? Not many. The Red Sox needed a LH bat, and needed help at 2B. They got both of them. The Reds needed advanced prospects. They didn't get any.

OldXOhio
12-13-2002, 11:56 AM
were you really expecting top notch prospects for Todd Walker. Agreed that TW is a solid 2b, but the reality is he does nothing spectacular that made woo another GM into letting go top flight talent.

Again, it was pure salary dump.

MikeS21
12-13-2002, 12:16 PM
The Todd Walker trade IS as a salary dump and the Reds DID NOT receive any particularly enticing prospects in return. Even if Luis Castillo ends up in town (making me one happy camper), the Reds still failed to get much of anything in return for a productive everyday 2B.
Has it been confirmed that Blanco and Thigpen are, in fact, the two minor leaguers? As far as I know, those names are just rumors - thrown out by Peter Gammons.

Not every team is in the market for a productive every day 2B. If there are only three teams out there in the market for Walker's services, and the Red Sox offered the BEST deal of the three, does JimBo take what he can get, or hold out until those three teams make other deals - thereby dropping Walker's trade value even more? It's great to "hold out for more" until the other team drops interest in your guy because they can get as good or better deal somewhere else.

And maybe we are simply over-estimating what kind of trade value our players have.

Red Leader
12-13-2002, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by OldXOhio
were you really expecting top notch prospects for Todd Walker. Agreed that TW is a solid 2b, but the reality is he does nothing spectacular that made woo another GM into letting go top flight talent.

Again, it was pure salary dump.

I was not expecting top flight prospects, but one of the players to be a steady player from AA in a position of weakness in this organization, instead of two from A that have possible high ceilings, but more probable busts would have been nice. Again, I am not against this trade, as I do feel it accomplished it's goal, and that was to dump salary. Both of the prospects the Reds got are either boom or bust. Why not hedge the odds a little and get a solid, if not spectacular prospect that is maybe 1 or 2 years away at a position that we are weak at.....and I don't think 3B is one of those positions.

guernsey
12-13-2002, 12:17 PM
Has it been confirmed that Blanco and Thigpen are, in fact, the two minor leaguers? As far as I know, those names are just rumors - thrown out by Peter Gammons.


McCoy had the same names in his article this morning, and Baseball America worate their trade analysis using those two guys as coming to the Reds.

Red Leader
12-13-2002, 12:18 PM
sorry, I hit quote instead of edit.

J "Cooper"
12-13-2002, 12:19 PM
Blanco is not worth a thing. A player that walks 5 times in a season is never gonna make it to the major league level. Throw in the fact that he's a 3rd baseman...he'll never hit enough to make it. My guess is in the history of baseball there have been maybe 5 guys who had his numbers and made it to the bigs. They were probably all shortstops.

Basically they picked up the 3rd base version of Dane Sardhina.

Bowden is always suckered by the tools,

Thigpen may turn into something 5 years from now.

It was a salary dump.

gm
12-13-2002, 12:33 PM
Thigpen: fastball and curve, needs to learn a changeup...hook him up with Chris Reitsma

Blanco: batspeed and no plate discipline = a Bowden "special" Epstein understands the importance of OBA, I don't know if JimBo will ever "get it"

Fortunately, the Reds already have a high-OBA leadoff hitter for 2003, his name is Austin Kearns. Hopefully Bob Boone will see the light

M2
12-13-2002, 12:48 PM
Mike, I've been reading Gammons for 20 years and I've never known him to miss when it comes to naming PTBNLs in a deal (especially one concerning the Red Sox).

As for me possibly overvaluing Walker, I'm not asking for the moon here. All I really wanted was one B prospect from the high minors. Even if there's only one team interested in a given players, that's a reasonable return.

J "Cooper"
12-13-2002, 12:48 PM
Wish they would have kept Sexton for a couple of reasons:

1. He's a good alternative after a trade like this. And even if he didn't start -he'd be there in case of injury. His MLE's aren't too bad and his salary is low. He's always had a good OBP.


2. He's been a good organizational soldier and I think it's important to give those guys a chance once in a while. It keeps their (minor leaguers) morale high and it rewards loyalty. Heck-he's from cincinnati.

red-in-la
12-13-2002, 12:59 PM
I agree M2, and I can see NO reason for dumping Walker so early in the process....surely his value would have risen as the current crop of Fa dwindled.

If you wanted to get GREAT value for Walker, you might have waited until ST.

For instance, I know the Dodgers have been looking for an alternative to Gruzelinik ever since they moved him to 2B. I bet they would have gotten interested if Bowden would have waited.

I just don't see the sense in this deal at this time.

The Reds have NO replacement for Walker. They could replace Casey, Sullivan or even White or all three.....why MAKE A HOLE by trading Walker?

Roy Tucker
12-13-2002, 01:14 PM
This was probably the worst time in the trading cycle (winter meetings through trading deadline) to be trading Walker.

Nobody has a burning need for an above-average-but-not-great 2B in December.

Come July 2003 and Alphonso Soriano breaks his leg and the Yankees are in the thick of a pennant race, THEN he'd be worth a lot more and I'm sure the Reds could have gotten a equivalent value.

But not now. However, they need to dump salary now and this was one of the less painful moves to make. But I agree with M2, Guernset, RiLA, et al, they should have gotten more.

MikeS21
12-13-2002, 01:47 PM
Look, all I'm saying is that when you hear about the 2B's supposedly "on the block" - guys like Vidro, possibly Castillo, possibly Giles. I've even heard that the Cards are taking offers for Vina. There are others. Add the FA 2B's out there, and suddenly it's easy to see why Walker brought in no more than he did.

Maybe it was bad timing. But as several of you have pointed out, it is early. I think the time to be critical is on August 1st, when you finally see how things are going to pan out.

It would have been great to land Sanchez and/or Fossum in exchane for Walker. But if I'm the Red Sox, I save those guys for the deal that lands me a Castillo or a Vidro. But if I have to turn around and include in a trade, guys like Edward Encarnacion and Bobby Bashan, in order to land Javier Vazquez and Vidro, I'll settle for Blanco and Thigpen in exchange for Todd Walker.

I still think that there is a trade for a 2B coming. It may not happen this week, but I think it will happen before Spring Training opens.

Now, if we're just clearing room so Juan Castro can play everyday, now you got a right to be fightin' mad!:mad: :mad: :mad:

BigRedOne
12-13-2002, 01:58 PM
I'd like to know where you get this optimism from. The entire off season has been nothing but negatives from the illustrious front office. NOT ONE positive thing came from them to make us look forward to the team in the new stadium. So now when they start acting like they said they would, "Gotta lower that payroll" now its some first step of a larger plan. Dont misunderstand me, I am normally quite optimistic myself and will gladly eat crow and say how wrong I am if in fact I am proven so. But until then, I have a bad feeling about this offseason and the Reds have done nothing but feed it.

M2
12-13-2002, 02:11 PM
Mike, all you're telling me is that you think it's a buyer's market. You might be right.

My question is why sell in a buyer's market? Todd Walker won't start getting checks for a few months and you can give him away for nothing in February if it comes to that and you still need to clear his salary.

So the Reds sell in a buyer's market and then I guess they wait to buy until the market gets more favorable for teams that are selling? That strikes me as awful backwards.

I still adhere to the principle that each team in a trade should come away with a player it wants. The Reds don't seem to have that in this deal.

haassolo
12-13-2002, 02:15 PM
The Reds did come away with what it wants. It removed 4 million from the payroll.

M2
12-13-2002, 02:25 PM
Again, that wasn't a particularly difficult trick to pull off.

It's always an opportune time to give away a guy coming off a good season who only costs $3.4 million, especially if that guy plays 2B, which has become an extremely thin position in the majors.

If all you expect of the Reds' GM is an ability to give away something for nothing, then I congratulate you on being easy to please.

Me, I still want a GM who, when he trades an everyday player, gets a return of somebody who stands a decent chance of helping the club or (get ready, because this is radical) who might even improve the club in the present or not-too-distant future.

whatafool
12-13-2002, 02:30 PM
M2 that is radical! you are an anarchist!

The point of every trade should be to reduce payroll !

Winning be damned!


I say lets deal Jr. for future consideration.

I know I would sleep better at night knowing Carl Lindner's financial future is more secure. :D

haassolo
12-13-2002, 02:45 PM
One of the problems with baseball is that unlike the NFL, you have guaranteed contracts. When a team like the Reds need to trim payroll, the only way they can do this is by trading to a team willing to assume that contract. In the NFL the Reds could solve problems like Barry Larkin, th Rockies and Hampton and Neagle and Toronto with Mondesi. The Reds need to dump salary and no team or Barry himself will let the Reds to trade Barry. No one wants to assume his contract and the Reds annot void because of the guarantee on contracts. The Reds need to move someone so they have to choose big salary players that other teams would want. Walker, Griffey, Casey, Sullivan etc. The Reds purpose in this trade is to move the salary off the books and they can't waive it so they do the next bes thing, trade players for prospectus. Now no team in their right mind would take Walker for good prospectus because he is not neccesary. What we received for Walker demonstrates his value, which is very little. Essentially both teams received what they want. Boston gets Walker which is a slight improvement until the Sanchez can come up , along with not loosing any high prospectus, the Reds get to the next best thing to waiving players, a salary dump with an added bonus of prospects regardless of their future worth. In the end we need to think about the motives of the trade. Would it be nice to keep Walker or get some really great prospects, yes, but that was not the motivation. It was to clear salary, and in baseball you clear salary by trading good expensive players for junk because you can not waive guys like you can in the nfl. Moving Walker is the expense of liking a small market team. If you hate it, then choose a team like the Cubs or the Yankees and follow them, but as a Red fan you assume that moves like this have to occur, it is baseball economics

whatafool
12-13-2002, 02:57 PM
Good point hassollo but living in chicago your taxes are probaley not paying for GAB. Alot of people in cincinnati are upset with both the reds and bengals. People feel so burned by Mike Brown and Carl Lindner that even a much needed school levy was defeated last month.

People feel betrayed. We were promised competitive teams by both mike brown and the reds organization. The tax payers lived up to their end of the bargain and ponied up $400 million + for two new stadiums and all we have to show for it is a 1-13 football team and a MLB team dumping salaries on the eve of opening the new ballpark.

There is alot of anger and resentment towards both organizations right now. It is not just me I can assure you.

haassolo
12-13-2002, 03:07 PM
I completely agree that as Red's fans we should be angry about the ballpark situation. I use to live in the area and I have family in the nati, but as an organization the Reds can make very few mistakes. One for sure, Larkin, and possibly another, Casey, and we are paying for it. Both those guys are on the team becasue the fans wanted them on the team. When a team has bad contracts and a tight budget you have to do things like moving Todd Walker. It is funny how all the fans are the same. The Cubs fans hate they do not spend enough money to get guys like Glavine and Hampton while White Soxs fans love Frank Thomas one day and not the next. It how all fans work and it is part of being a fan

MikeS21
12-13-2002, 03:07 PM
I'd like to know where you get this optimism from. The entire off season has been nothing but negatives from the illustrious front office. NOT ONE positive thing came from them to make us look forward to the team in the new stadium. So now when they start acting like they said they would, "Gotta lower that payroll" now its some first step of a larger plan. Dont misunderstand me, I am normally quite optimistic myself and will gladly eat crow and say how wrong I am if in fact I am proven so. But until then, I have a bad feeling about this offseason and the Reds have done nothing but feed it.
BRO, what is it EXACTLY that you want the Reds to do?

Don't tell me what should have been done last year. What do you want them to do NOW?

Everytime somebody from the FO opens their mouth, they are accused of lying. They could take out a full page ad in the newspaper and annouce that their payroll will be $60 million. But nobody'd believe them. What exactly do you want them to do?

Do you want them to get Bartolo Colon? Problem is, no one wants to trade any Reds player that has any trade value because it will only be a salary dump. After Ken Griffey, there ain't NO ONE on this team valuable enough to fetch Colon. Trading Castro and Stinnet isn't going to land the type of talent that will put the Reds over the top.

The Reds have not pursued anyone in the free agent market. Which, based on the players in the free agent pool, that seem like a wise course of action to me. Why OVERPAY someone that other teams don't even feel is worth the expense? Greg Maddox is the only player out there worth looking at, but I still don't think he's worth th $12-$15 million per year he's asking. Why waste money on an over-priced free agent just to make some kind of statement to your fans?

You've *HEARD* that the Reds are cutting payroll. Yet every indication I've seen is that the Reds payroll will be around $55 million for 2003. John Allen, this morning in the Cincy Enquirer, thinks that payroll will probably exceed $55. How can you "cut" payroll and raise it at the same time? If you are worried about the "silence" surrounding the Reds' FO, this off-season, well ... after the Junior fiasco, perhaps they're better off keeping quiet. And if you are thinking about the Junior non-trade story, the Reds are idiots for not at least entertaining trade offers. If we're going to start judging these guys on the trades that didn't happen, then there's no way they are going to please anyone. Unfortunately, ANY move the Reds make , where we don't receive as neutral or additional payroll in return, is going to be viewed as a dump.

Do I think there needs to be changes in the Reds front office? Absolutely. I think JimBo has lost some of his "magic touch" if he even had it to begin with. Do I think a Junior for Nevin deal was stupid? Absolutley. (Although I'm not sure Nevin wouldn't have been traded before he ever put on a Reds uniform).

But, if the RIGHT deal came up for Junior, that would free enough payroll to go out and bring in Jose Vidro, Javier Vazquez, and Carlos Beltran - all under the $55 million payroll, I'd help Junior pack his bags and take him to the airport.

You don't see why I am so optimistic. It's not that I'm optimistic as much as I'm patient - willing to wait and get the whole picture before I start hollering that "the sky is falling." I can't for the life of me see why many folks are so negative based on three or four alleged trades that DIDN'T happen, a table clearing trade that DID happen, and rumors of cost-cutting that the $55 million budget doesn't support. Folks are throwing in the towel when they haven't seen the finished product yet.

I'm just saying let's ignore all the rumors and wait and see how it plays all out by Opening Day and the July 31 trading deadline. Then you can throw cold water on my parade all you want. ;)

M2
12-13-2002, 03:14 PM
haas, again, no one's asking for great prospects (the Red Sox only have one of those in the first place).

The Cleveland Indians just picked up Travis Hafner, a solid hitting prospect, for Einar Diaz, who can't carry Todd Walker's jock. Mark Loretta fetched Keith Ginter. Randall Simon was worth Adrian Burnside.

So the Reds just traded a player superior to all of those guys and got less in return. If other GMs do it, why can't ours?

A budget is just a parameter. What ultimately determines whether you win or lose is the talent in your organization. The Reds just got less talented in dumping a relatively affordable one-year contract.

haassolo
12-13-2002, 03:24 PM
Those examples do not compare to Todd Walker because the team in those trades would not assume Walker contract. The Reds needed to trade to teams that need a 2nd baseman and could assume an extra 4 million dollars. That leaves Boston and Los Angeles. As for talent, Todd Walker was not going to get any better. He is past his hitting peak and is not going to improve his defensive by getting any stronger or faster. Also, 4 million can get you some talent in the next draft, so the lost of Walker is not a talent drain. They picked up two guys that are young enough to turn into something, and if they do not pan out that is okay because only a minority of minor leaguers ever make to the show. The more chances you have the better

westofyou
12-13-2002, 03:38 PM
Mike Sweeny for Alex Ochea

Alex Ochea for Robin Jennings and Todd Walker

Todd Walker for Blanco and Thigpen

------------------------------------------

Mike Sweeny for Blanco and Thigpen = 1 year of a RH platoon OF and a season 1/3 of a 2nd baseman, giving us the abilty to dump Pokey.

Now package this Blanco guy in the next trade.

M2
12-13-2002, 03:45 PM
What, the Cubs don't need a 2B? Or the White Sox? Or the Orioles? Or the Braves? Or the Marlins if they part with Luis Castillo? Or the Brewers? Or the Giants if Ray Durham plays OF? Or the Padres, who were willing to take on Jr.'s contract? Or the Royals (who might have taken a guy like Walker with prospects in exchange for a larger contract on their team)? Or the Indians? Or the A's? Or the Rangers?

Half the teams in baseball need a 2B and who knows what all of them can and can't afford. $3.4 million is a perfectly reasonable contract for most teams in this game.

The Reds picked up two extreme longshots for a good player who at 29 is in his peak years. That is a talent drain. That is the definition of a talent drain. The Reds gave up a guy who can play everyday and do it well (and I'm saying this as a guy who is no great Todd Walker fan) for some pocket lint.

It doesn't mean the Reds can't use that money elsewhere. It just means that they traded a quality player for no one we should ever expect to see in the majors. Good organizations manage to get something back, even in a salary dump.

guernsey
12-13-2002, 03:49 PM
What, the Cubs don't need a 2B?

No, the Cubs don't need a 2B. Bobby Hill.

djeternal
12-13-2002, 03:50 PM
I'm not understanding some of you here. Some of you sound quite happy to see the Reds dumping salary, and not raising their budget. Grant it, that the Angels are Champs, but they are adding 30mil to their budget. Lindner is one of America's most richest people, yet we are barely raising the bar to add to the pay-roll, esp with the GAB, the CBA, and the new TV deal?

Allen talks as if the budget still hasn't been made. How can they not know at this time? If it's going up around $5-10 mil, as everyone is saying, you can only afford one good player, and knowing how this organization is being run, that one player will be our famous 1-yr rent-a-player.

I guess some of you are happy to have the Reds of the Nunallys and Stynes.

haassolo
12-13-2002, 03:55 PM
Cubs have Bobby Hill and Gruz..., White Soxs have Harris and do not have any money, Marlins...no money, Giants...Kent and Durham...Royals...you serious they can't take the contract... A's aren't stupid and have a 2nd baseman, Indians...Guiterez....Rangers....trying to dump salary not added it. You are right, half the teams need second basemen like Walker, but can they afford Walker, is he a good choice for most of these teams. The hitting peak for players is 27, Walker had his best year and will never happen again. Boston will use him for year because they feel they can make a run and then he will be a FA next year. My question is would you want to keep Walker for a year and then not resing him and get nothing while at the same time having to cut cost on other things such as minor leaguers, Gabe White etc, or dump Walker use the money some place else and get two guys that we can develop. I choose the later, it makes finacial sense and talent sense.

BigRedOne
12-13-2002, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by MikeS21
BRO, what is it EXACTLY that you want the Reds to do?

Don't tell me what should have been done last year. What do you want them to do NOW

What I want them to do is what they have been telling us they would do for the past three years. How many times have we been told about "the Plan for 2003"? Well here we are, 2003, and now we find that the Reds are going to have to give away some of their players in order to meet budget. Im not averse to trades, I'll even trade Jr if the price is right. (I havent heard of a deal that qualifies so far) But essentially giving your talent away for players that MAY help us in 2006 doesnt seem like we are building for 2003 to me.

What exactly would I like them to do? How about celebrate the upcoming season in the new stadium rather than mourning it. By mourning it I mean crying about how they will have LESS money with the new stadium than before! Then apparently acting on this by giving walker away. Hey if they make a great trade later on, I promise I will say "WoW! Great job!", but until then I'm calling it what it is.

You make a good point in that you said everytime the Front Office opens their mouth, they are accused of lying. Think of Pavlov's dog and conditioned response.

I shouldnt have said cutting payroll, even though in my opinion, if you have to give a player away to fit payroll into the budget, you are in fact lowering it. I disagree with you in that any move where the payroll isnt even or higher will be viewed as dumping. Most fans recognize value vs dumping.

I apologise if I sound overly negative, because Im really not. Perhaps its seeing what Brown has done to my beloved Bengals and fear that Lindner will do the same to my favorite pro team in any sport.

Red Leader
12-13-2002, 04:27 PM
Now there is some talk that the Red Sox are going to turn around and send Walker with some other prospects to the Padres for Sean Burroughs. I'll see if I can get the article from the Rocky Mountain News.

"While their is the slight possibility that the Red Sox got Walker in order to trade him -- the Rocky Mountain News has Walker rumored to be going San Diego as part of a package for Sean Burroughs -- it's far more likely that he'll be Boston's starting second baseman next year. If so, Sanchez, who has been used mostly at shortstop, would spend at least half the season in Triple-A learning how to play second base. He could join the Red Sox after the All-Star break to be used as a utilityman. "

guernsey
12-13-2002, 04:28 PM
From Rotoworld


Freddy Sanchez - 2B - Boston Red Sox Dec 13

With Todd Walker joining the Red Sox, Freddy Sanchez is expected to spend most of next year in Triple-A.

While their is the slight possibility that the Red Sox got Walker in order to trade him -- the Rocky Mountain News has Walker rumored to be going San Diego as past of a package for Sean Burroughs -- it's far more likely that he'll be Boston's starting second baseman next year. If so, Sanchez, who has been used mostly at shortstop, would spend at least half the season in Triple-A learning how to play second base. He could join the Red Sox after the All-Star break to be used as a utilityman.


If the BoSox package Todd to the Pads for Burroughs, princeton will go absolutely nuts!

princeton
12-13-2002, 04:34 PM
you got that right

haassolo
12-13-2002, 04:34 PM
That makes sense because the Sox are shopping Hillenbrand for Durazo.

Red Heeler
12-13-2002, 05:33 PM
I don't understand how anybody can like this trade. To get Todd Walker, the Reds had to give up a useful major league player. Todd then gets better, and the Reds recieve a wing (Thigpen) and a prayer (Blanco). Blech!!!

Of couse this trade may allow us to keep Sean Casey and Aaron Boone. Problem is Casey OPS'ed .696 last year, Boone put up a .753, while Walker bested them both with a .783. Strange logic where you trade the best of the trio. Not to mention the fact that the Reds have far more palatable options at 3B and 1B than they do at 2B.

Well, there is the argument that Walker only had a year left on his contract. I would argue that he could have easily been resigned for about the same money.

M2
12-13-2002, 06:11 PM
haas, every study I've ever seen indicates that at age 27 you START your prime. It lasts for a few years (31 or 32 I believe).

As for your list of teams and their 2B options, nice collection of assumptions. I stated this in another thread, but it applies here: There's no particular skill involved in coming up with excuses for what you can't do, a smart team figures out what it can do.

Players more expensive than Todd Walker will be traded this offseason for decent returns. Players less talented than Todd Walker will be traded this offseason for decent returns. Players both more expensive and less talented than Todd Walker will be traded this offseason for decent returns. Bet your life on it. Happens every year.

The Reds managed to get almost nothing for Todd Walker. Make excuses for it until the cows come home. This trade in and of itself does not help the Reds and, that being the case, Bowden had nothing to lose by waiting for a better deal to materialize.

And if the Red Sox (a team with an exceedingly thin minor league system) manages to package Todd Walker and some B and C prospects for Sean Burroughs then this trade takes a turn from bad to hideous.

J "Cooper"
12-13-2002, 06:34 PM
The trade is bad.

I don't think they'll move Walker on because Epstein reported that Walker would be their opening day 2nd baseman for the 2003 year. He probably would've held his cards closer to the vest if he was thinking of moving him on.

Lastly, the BoSox and James have talked at length about their need for average regulars to fill in the gaps. Walker is a good regular who fits their win now strategy. IMO, he's not going anywhere.

It is a bad trade...really bad. We got took.

HUMMER2
12-13-2002, 09:34 PM
Yeah, well...listen to this...


I figured Bowden would have gotton more in return for a Todd Walker who had a fine season in 2002.