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traderumor
10-27-2009, 07:19 AM
ESPN suspends Griese one game for Montoya remark

ESPN broadcaster Bob Griese has been suspended one week for a remark he made about NASCAR driver Juan Pablo Montoya.

ESPN spokesman Josh Krulewitz says Griese will not be working a game this week.

During ESPN's broadcast of the Minnesota-Ohio State game Saturday, a graphic was shown listing the top five drivers in NASCAR's points race. Fellow analyst Chris Spielman asked where was Montoya, who is Colombian. Griese replied he was "out having a taco."

First, it is funny that Bob Griese was caught trying to crack a joke. Second, the joke is only funny because the ethnic remark picked the wrong ethnic group. I assume most would not associate tacos with Columbians. Third, is this really offensive?

Maybe if it was something like "out recruiting poverty stricken youth to help harvest and manufacture cocaine" or "out in the field picking coffee beans," but "out having a taco?" Politically correct insanity to suspend someone for that remark.

I'm sure that is the last time we will see Bob try to be funny, though, which is apparently a good thing. :)

cumberlandreds
10-27-2009, 08:55 AM
How do we know he wasn't out having a taco? Americans can't laugh at themselves or anyone else anymore without the PC police knocking them back down.

Roy Tucker
10-27-2009, 09:13 AM
Griese has a sense of humor?

My initial reaction was I snorted. Then I thought whoops, he'll get in trouble for that.

A suspension is a little harsh. Griese apologized at the end of the broadcast which I would have considered the end of it all. But its almost like ESPN had to suspend him or else the media would turn it into a big deal. This nips it in the bud and I'm sure is a boardroom decision. I think its a little sad our society is this way but then I'm a white middle-aged middle-class man and never been subject to any discrimination.

traderumor
10-27-2009, 09:42 AM
Of course, playing devil's advocate for a sec, imagine if the question had been regarding some African-American personality and he had said "probably out eating some fried chicken."

But, our culture and its demand for apologies and suspensions or firings for insensitive or tongue-in-cheek remarks that go awry has reached the level of absurdity, this being just one more example.

This one surely doesn't seem to reach the level of Cosell's "look at that monkey run," which is probably my all-time favorite innocent announcing faux pas.

NJReds
10-27-2009, 10:32 AM
Stupid throwaway comment from Griese. In the grand scheme of things, one game off isn't that big a deal.

durl
10-27-2009, 11:11 AM
An apology should be plenty. It just never is these days...

westofyou
10-27-2009, 11:16 AM
If Steve Phillips had not hit the news and sullied the ESPN brand last week the comment might have faded into the past and the apology might have sufficed. As it is now ESPN is doing cover up work on this incident to try and keep a the brand from tarnishing more.

traderumor
10-27-2009, 11:52 AM
I must tune out Griese or the comment was made in the 4th qtr when I went to play on the computer after the blowout became boring, but I didn't hear the comment.

Unassisted
10-27-2009, 11:55 AM
I heard the apology and was puzzled by it since I wasn't paying enough attention to catch the comment from Griese. If he'd said that on a local station where I live, he'd be front page news and out of a job.

Roy Tucker
10-27-2009, 11:56 AM
http://www.scenedaily.com/news/articles/sprintcupseries/Juan_Pablo_Montoya_unfazed_from_comment_by_ESPN_co mmentator.html

Hoosier Red
10-27-2009, 12:27 PM
I thought Jimmy Johnson(the race car driver) made some comment about it, too, like "Hey I like tacos too." Trying to take the pressure off.

Brutus
10-27-2009, 01:42 PM
I thought the apology was prompted by the ESPN Producers. It sounded forced.

Make no mistake, though, I don't think he has anything to be "sorry" about. I'm fed up with the PC police. This country needs to stop demonizing every person that makes some small humorous comment, even if it involves any sort of mundane stereotype. It's one thing to make racist jokes but it's quite another to have a joke at one another's expense, simply recognizing that we ARE in fact different people and have different tastes, different habits and different backgrounds. We should be embracing that for what it is and stop being so uptight about everything.

Shame on ESPN. I agree that this is probably backlash from the Steve Phillips news. Still, I despise this country for what it's becoming and this is another feather in that politically correct cap.

Highlifeman21
10-27-2009, 01:58 PM
I like tacos too, for the record.

Caveat Emperor
10-27-2009, 03:35 PM
Strangely, I think if he'd said "He's out having a cup of coffee" (which would've been the correct matching of ethnicity and food product), there would've been no problem at all.

It is amusing how certain stereotypes are "red flag" stereotypes, while others are just "Eh..."

Like, no one would be offended if the guy's name was O'Malley and the comment was "He's probably off having a Guiness..." and no one would be offended if his name was Cannizario and somebody said "He's probably getting some pizza..."

Yachtzee
10-27-2009, 03:36 PM
If Steve Phillips had not hit the news and sullied the ESPN brand last week the comment might have faded into the past and the apology might have sufficed. As it is now ESPN is doing cover up work on this incident to try and keep a the brand from tarnishing more.

That's my impression too. With the Steve Phillips incident and Deadspin's subsequent publishing of additional rumors of inappropriate sexual conduct in Bristol, I have a feeling the ESPN folks are pretty sensitive about anything that makes them look bad.

That being said, I like nachos, yes!

http://estantedoheitor.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/615279-fred_fredburger_large1.jpg

Sea Ray
10-27-2009, 04:45 PM
There is no more politically correct network out there than ESPN.

BTW, what's Griese doing on NASCAR anyway?

camisadelgolf
10-27-2009, 06:39 PM
It was an extremely ignorant comment that makes me embarrassed to call myself a U.S. American. Am I the only one who thinks it would have been less offensive if the comment were about a Mexican.

traderumor
10-27-2009, 08:02 PM
It was an extremely ignorant comment that makes me embarrassed to call myself a U.S. American. Am I the only one who thinks it would have been less offensive if the comment were about a Mexican.Unless I'm missing the sarcasm, I'm not sure it reached the level of national embarrassment.

Razor Shines
10-27-2009, 08:52 PM
I heard the apology and was puzzled by it since I wasn't paying enough attention to catch the comment from Griese. If he'd said that on a local station where I live, he'd be front page news and out of a job.

You think? I don't live that far from you and half of my family is Hispanic and I bet you 100 tacos that if they'd have heard they would have thought it was funny as hell. Well....most of them some wouldn't care one way or another.

Joseph
10-27-2009, 09:33 PM
Did anyone know Griese worked for ESPN before this?

Sounds like self promotion at its finest, Worldwide Leader style.

Dom Heffner
10-27-2009, 10:17 PM
I thought the apology was prompted by the ESPN Producers. It sounded forced.

Make no mistake, though, I don't think he has anything to be "sorry" about. I'm fed up with the PC police. This country needs to stop demonizing every person that makes some small humorous comment, even if it involves any sort of mundane stereotype. It's one thing to make racist jokes but it's quite another to have a joke at one another's expense, simply recognizing that we ARE in fact different people and have different tastes, different habits and different backgrounds. We should be embracing that for what it is and stop being so uptight about everything.

Shame on ESPN. I agree that this is probably backlash from the Steve Phillips news. Still, I despise this country for what it's becoming and this is another feather in that politically correct cap.

Wow, how impressive. A bunch of white dudes hanging out on a message board arguing for more leeway in making racial stereotypes.

Here's what I'm sick of Brutus: People not getting it through their skull that you don't say things like this on a national broadcast. Bob Griese doesn't know this guy well enough to poke fun at his heritage.

If Bob Griese worked for me, he'd be looking for work not only next Sunday, but every Sunday for the rest of his life.

Hispanics make up a portion of a television audience, and advertisers don't pay money to hear the lilly white commentators assume what type of food someone is eating becuase their skin is a certain shade.

It's offensive, and if you can't understand that, I feel sorry for you.

It isn't offensive to you because you aren't Hispanic.

Part of being a human being is putting yourself in somebody's else's shoes.

What would Traderumor say if the driver in question was known for his religious beliefs and the announcer said, "Aw, he's probably off eating a communion wafer..."

Griese's joke is this: the guy has a Mexican sounding name, therefore he is off eating a taco.

On what planet does that have a place on a nationally televised football game?

DTCromer
10-27-2009, 10:46 PM
He should be suspended for the joke, not for offending anyone.

God forbid someone is offended by something from time-to-time.

Dom Heffner
10-27-2009, 10:50 PM
He should be suspended for the joke, not for offending anyone.

God forbid someone is offended by something from time-to-time.

The reason he should be suspended for the joke is because the joke is offensive.

DTCromer
10-27-2009, 10:54 PM
Wow, how impressive. A bunch of white dudes hanging out on a message board arguing for more leeway in making racial stereotypes.

Here's what I'm sick of Brutus: People not getting it through their skull that you don't say things like this on a national broadcast. Bob Griese doesn't know this guy well enough to poke fun at his heritage.

If Bob Griese worked for me, he'd be looking for work not only next Sunday, but every Sunday for the rest of his life.

Hispanics make up a portion of a television audience, and advertisers don't pay money to hear the lilly white commentators assume what type of food someone is eating becuase their skin is a certain shade.

It's offensive, and if you can't understand that, I feel sorry for you.

It isn't offensive to you because you aren't Hispanic.

Part of being a human being is putting yourself in somebody's else's shoes.

What would Traderumor say if the driver in question was known for his religious beliefs and the announcer said, "Aw, he's probably off eating a communion wafer..."

Griese's joke is this: the guy has a Mexican sounding name, therefore he is off eating a taco.

On what planet does that have a place on a nationally televised football game?


Looks like the PC police has arrived. Part of being a human being is taking jokes too. Looks like you're a guy I could never talk about the priest, rabbi, and minister walk into a bar jokes because you might be offended someone else might get offended.

Dom Heffner
10-27-2009, 11:06 PM
Looks like the PC police has arrived. Part of being a human being is taking jokes too. Looks like you're a guy I could never talk about the priest, rabbi, and minister walk into a bar jokes because you might be offended someone else might get offended.

The issue is whether you should tell a joke like this on a nationally televised football game.

Would you tell your little joke to a national tv audience watching a football game? Didn't think so.

In your above post you point out he should be suspended for telling the joke, but it shouldn't be because anyone is offended by the joke.

That's a little contradictory, don't you think?

Again- this is hilarious watching you guys try to make a case to lighten up etiquette over making racially insensitive jokes. Seriously- a bunch of white guys complaining that they should be given a little leeway to poke some fun at other ethnicities.

And the support for your argument is to compare a joke about what are essentially occupations by choice to something someone has no control over- their heritage.

And if PC means keeping this sort of thing off the air, sign me up. I don't watch football games to hear Bob Griese make jokes about people's heritage.

Donder
10-27-2009, 11:20 PM
I'm trying real hard to put the shoe on the other foot. And maybe this isn't a great analogy. But if a sports announcer from another country said "Peyton Manning was probably out getting a hamburger" would anyone be offended? Would anyone in the even hear about it? And if the answer is no, what's the difference?

Dom Heffner
10-27-2009, 11:22 PM
I'm trying real hard to put the shoe on the other foot. And maybe this isn't a great analogy. But if a sports announcer from another country said "Peyton Manning was probably out getting a hamburger" would anyone be offended? Would anyone in the even hear about it? And if the answer is no, what's the difference?


What if he said a black race car driver was off eating watermelon?

Donder
10-27-2009, 11:51 PM
What if he said a black race car driver was off eating watermelon?

I'm not in a good position to answer this, I'm not black. So what you're saying is some ethnicities are offended by stereotypes and others are not? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I just find this a fascinating conversation.

Tony Cloninger
10-28-2009, 12:04 AM
Back in 1980 when the Bengals drafted Anthony Munoz... negotiations (surprise?) got tense and Pete Brown basically said something about Munoz being a "Taco Head" or better off working at a "Taco Stand"

I remember it clearly beacuse i had the SN issue and it was right there in black and white.

So basically....that sort of comment...while not intended to be mean spirited seems to have a deep seated history in how the Spanish community is thought of...and it was an easy way for people to insult the Hispanic race...when they felt so inclined to say some rude, throwaway comment in the heat of the moment or stupidity.

I know when i moved to this country from South America....they called me a "cannibal" at school when i was about 13-14 years old....due to the Uruguayan rugby team getting caught in the Andes and having to eat other people to survive. So basically..... to more than a few people ....anyone from South America was either an illegal or Hannibal Lecter.

Brutus
10-28-2009, 12:16 AM
The issue is whether you should tell a joke like this on a nationally televised football game.

Would you tell your little joke to a national tv audience watching a football game? Didn't think so.

In your above post you point out he should be suspended for telling the joke, but it shouldn't be because anyone is offended by the joke.

That's a little contradictory, don't you think?

Again- this is hilarious watching you guys try to make a case to lighten up etiquette over making racially insensitive jokes. Seriously- a bunch of white guys complaining that they should be given a little leeway to poke some fun at other ethnicities.

And the support for your argument is to compare a joke about what are essentially occupations by choice to something someone has no control over- their heritage.

And if PC means keeping this sort of thing off the air, sign me up. I don't watch football games to hear Bob Griese make jokes about people's heritage.

I say boo hoo.

You know how many black comedians make jokes about white people? Turn on cable some Friday or Saturday night on HBO, Comedy Central or whatever channel has comedians on. I challenge you to find too many comedians that don't make race jokes - even black comedians about white folks.

And you know what? I laugh at them and I'm not offended. Heck, one of my friends in Atlanta, who is black, joked with me often that white people smells like wet dogs when it rains. You know what? I laughed my butt off. Was I offended? Heck no.

If you're offended by a joke about eating a taco, then you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. There is a big difference between the kind of oppression blacks suffered for many, many years and a broadcaster making a joke about eating a taco. There is no business for anyone to get worked up about it. Funny thing is, I don't think anyone truly is offended by this joke. Not even mexicans. My Latino friends have always had humorous jokes about being Latino. I suspect most of us here that have friends of a different background would say the same.

Much ado about nothing. No reason to feel sorry for me. I know what could be offensive and isn't. This is not offensive. It's completely silly, actually.

Tony_Danza
10-28-2009, 12:54 AM
If Bob Griese worked for me, he'd be looking for work not only next Sunday, but every Sunday for the rest of his life.

College football is played on Saturdays. LOL.
Danza out.

Slyder
10-28-2009, 01:17 AM
Cant stand the PC Police.

I like Tacos too for the record.

Theres nothing to see here, move along.

ESPN really needed a reason to suspend Griese?

Dom Heffner
10-28-2009, 01:29 AM
I say boo hoo.

You know how many black comedians make jokes about white people? Turn on cable some Friday or Saturday night on HBO, Comedy Central or whatever channel has comedians on. I challenge you to find too many comedians that don't make race jokes - even black comedians about white folks.

And you know what? I laugh at them and I'm not offended. Heck, one of my friends in Atlanta, who is black, joked with me often that white people smells like wet dogs when it rains. You know what? I laughed my butt off. Was I offended? Heck no.

If you're offended by a joke about eating a taco, then you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. There is a big difference between the kind of oppression blacks suffered for many, many years and a broadcaster making a joke about eating a taco. There is no business for anyone to get worked up about it. Funny thing is, I don't think anyone truly is offended by this joke. Not even mexicans. My Latino friends have always had humorous jokes about being Latino. I suspect most of us here that have friends of a different background would say the same.

Much ado about nothing. No reason to feel sorry for me. I know what could be offensive and isn't. This is not offensive. It's completely silly, actually.

So because black people make jokes about white people in comedy clubs, it's okay if Bob Griese makes a Mexican joke on a nationally televised football game?

And all these comedians you speak of- you think that if they were in the broadcast booth, they would bring their act to collegiate football games? Did Dennis Miller go with his raunchy act on Monday Night Football? Did he drop F-bombs? I mean, according to you, if you do it in a comedy club, it's perfectly fine for a football game.

Maybe John Madden should have told some good Kentucky Fried Chicken jokes on air because Cat Williams makes fun of white people in his comedy act.

This is about time and place. We all know a good off-color joke, and I'm guessing the majority of Hispanic people didn't tune in to this game expecting to hear one.

There are advertisers who pay good money to sponsor the program, and who the Hispanic community makes up a part of their customer base. What they don't need is the guy doing commentary using the airtime they paid for to make taco jokes about Mexicans.

Griese deserves the suspension.

I think when people go to comedy clubs, they expect to hear off-color or offensive material. It is a comedy act. Last time I checked, Bob Griese isn't a comedian.

It's about knowing your audience. It's about time and place.

And the world is a little big to argue by anecdote- your whole "A black man made a white joke and I laughed" bit doesn't change a thing. Again, you are in a private setting with people who know you or you are at a comedy club where again, you are expecting to see that.

In high school, my best friend was black and we teased each other all the time- I would not then take that relationship and broadcast the jokes we told over a microphone to people I did not know. If I did so, I would suspect I would lose my job.

Bob Griese doesn't know Mr. Montoya well enough to make jokes about his heritage. Bob Griese does not have a relationship with the Hispanic community that is so well known that everyone knows he isn't trying to be offensive. And the game isn't being billed as a comedic event- it's a freaking football game.

Nobody is saying don't make jokes at comedy clubs or amongst yourselves. What ESPN is saying, is hey, maybe you should save those jokes for comedy hour and not for our football broadcasts.

Dom Heffner
10-28-2009, 01:49 AM
I'm not in a good position to answer this, I'm not black. So what you're saying is some ethnicities are offended by stereotypes and others are not? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I just find this a fascinating conversation.

The hamburger example above was not a good one- white people are no more prone to eating hamburgers than blacks or hispanics. I know of no white hamburger jokes. McDonald's is pretty universal, isn't it?

Fried chicken, watermelon, tacos- I mean those have some pretty strong sterotypical connotations.

Caveat Emperor
10-28-2009, 02:03 AM
Fried chicken, watermelon, tacos- I mean those have some pretty strong sterotypical connotations.

I'm 6'10" tall -- get asked if I played/play basketball about 5 times per day. That's a stereotype (tall man = likes and plays basketball) that people are comfortable voicing.

I had a buddy in law school who was a hefty dude -- 5'10 and probably close to 300. Never once heard anyone ask him if he enjoyed buffets or had a problem saying no to dessert. Nobody was EVER comfortable voicing that stereotype.

It's funny to me that there's this sliding scale with "judging people based on appearance" -- where we find certain things completely OK (like portraying Italians as hair-slicked-back mafia hitmen), but other things completely off the reservation and terrible (Juan Pablo Montoya eats tacos).

Razor Shines
10-28-2009, 02:18 AM
Is it really offensive to say that Meixcans love tacos? I have a LOT of Mexican friends and family. I can't think of any that don't love tacos. We have big family dinners (another stereo type) at least a couple times a week. A taco in some form is usually involved. My wife is Mexican we have a taco in a meal for breakfast, lunch or dinner probably 5-6 days a week. I didn't eat tacos that often before I met her.

I just don't really see how this is all that negative. This has made me really want a taco. Maybe I'll swing by my In-Laws house, I'm willing to bet they had tacos tonight and there are some leftovers.

Razor Shines
10-28-2009, 02:22 AM
I'm 6'10" tall -- get asked if I played/play basketball about 5 times per day. That's a stereotype (tall man = likes and plays basketball) that people are comfortable voicing.

I had a buddy in law school who was a hefty dude -- 5'10 and probably close to 300. Never once heard anyone ask him if he enjoyed buffets or had a problem saying no to dessert. Nobody was EVER comfortable voicing that stereotype.

It's funny to me that there's this sliding scale with "judging people based on appearance" -- where we find certain things completely OK (like portraying Italians as hair-slicked-back mafia hitmen), but other things completely off the reservation and terrible (Juan Pablo Montoya eats tacos).


I would absolutely ask you if you played basketball if I saw you. 6'10", that's tough to guard in a men's league. In the past I've been known to strike up a conversation with someone with the sole intention of finding out if they play basketball and attempting to get them on my team.

Brutus
10-28-2009, 03:30 AM
I'm 6'10" tall -- get asked if I played/play basketball about 5 times per day. That's a stereotype (tall man = likes and plays basketball) that people are comfortable voicing.

I had a buddy in law school who was a hefty dude -- 5'10 and probably close to 300. Never once heard anyone ask him if he enjoyed buffets or had a problem saying no to dessert. Nobody was EVER comfortable voicing that stereotype.

It's funny to me that there's this sliding scale with "judging people based on appearance" -- where we find certain things completely OK (like portraying Italians as hair-slicked-back mafia hitmen), but other things completely off the reservation and terrible (Juan Pablo Montoya eats tacos).

It's funny you mentioned the Italian thing. My friend Nate's family is Italian. We had this exact conversation last night where he pointed out to me they hear mafia references on a weekly basis. And he mentioned how no one gets bent out of shape about that.

Dom, my point about comedy clubs was not to relate it to a football broadcast, but rather, jokes are a part of a broadcast. You're basically saying that no football broadcaster should be joking. Right? Because he doesn't get paid to give jokes? Somehow, I don't think that's your point. So since it isn't....

Then since every broadcaster I've ever heard has made a joke or two in a broadcast, who cares that he told a joke? Since it's not terribly different from what comedians are telling, why is this any worse?. My point is what came out of Griese's mouth is a lot less offensive than most of the stuff coming out of minorities' mouths on comedy programs, but whites aren't on a witch hunt trying to stop those comments. Your point about advertisers paying big money is irrelevant. So what? If you get some Mexicans terribly offended by it, and they revolt against the advertisers, then sure, it's something ESPN would have to deal with. But other than the PC police, I don't see anyone that actually believes this was 'offensive', at least the people that would be in a position to be offended. It was a silly little throwaway joke. It should never have been an issue to begin with.

camisadelgolf
10-28-2009, 04:26 AM
Is it really offensive to say that Meixcans love tacos? I have a LOT of Mexican friends and family. I can't think of any that don't love tacos. We have big family dinners (another stereo type) at least a couple times a week. A taco in some form is usually involved. My wife is Mexican we have a taco in a meal for breakfast, lunch or dinner probably 5-6 days a week. I didn't eat tacos that often before I met her.

I just don't really see how this is all that negative. This has made me really want a taco. Maybe I'll swing by my In-Laws house, I'm willing to bet they had tacos tonight and there are some leftovers.
Montoya is Colombian--not Mexican. It's not offensive to imply that a Colombian might eat a taco, but it's offensive to imply that Colombians, etc. are the same as Mexicans. In fact, you're a lot more likely to find a hamburger in Colombia than a taco.

I think you can make a valid argument that what Griese said wasn't offensive (for the reason that the only person looking dumb was Griese himself), but at a minimum, it was inappropriate and extremely ignorant.

Razor Shines
10-28-2009, 05:05 AM
Montoya is Colombian--not Mexican. It's not offensive to imply that a Colombian might eat a taco, but it's offensive to imply that Colombians, etc. are the same as Mexicans. In fact, you're a lot more likely to find a hamburger in Colombia than a taco.

I think you can make a valid argument that what Griese said wasn't offensive (for the reason that the only person looking dumb was Griese himself), but at a minimum, it was inappropriate and extremely ignorant.

So you're saying that if Montoya happened to be Mexican and Griese made the comment there wouldn't be a big fluff? Griese does look dumb because Montoya is Colombian.

This thread seemed to be discussing stereotypes in general, and that's what I was responding to.

reds44
10-28-2009, 05:19 AM
Wow, how impressive. A bunch of white dudes hanging out on a message board arguing for more leeway in making racial stereotypes.

Here's what I'm sick of Brutus: People not getting it through their skull that you don't say things like this on a national broadcast. Bob Griese doesn't know this guy well enough to poke fun at his heritage.

If Bob Griese worked for me, he'd be looking for work not only next Sunday, but every Sunday for the rest of his life.

Hispanics make up a portion of a television audience, and advertisers don't pay money to hear the lilly white commentators assume what type of food someone is eating becuase their skin is a certain shade.

It's offensive, and if you can't understand that, I feel sorry for you.

It isn't offensive to you because you aren't Hispanic.

Part of being a human being is putting yourself in somebody's else's shoes.

What would Traderumor say if the driver in question was known for his religious beliefs and the announcer said, "Aw, he's probably off eating a communion wafer..."

Griese's joke is this: the guy has a Mexican sounding name, therefore he is off eating a taco.

On what planet does that have a place on a nationally televised football game?
Oh my God.

Should Griese have made the remark? No, of course not. However to suggest he should be fired for a comment that was clearly in jest, is just plain dumb. I don't know if you've seen the clip but he is laughing when he says it. It was wrong to say, he apologized. He's been suspended.

If I was watching Grambling play Bethune-Cookman and an announce said that Tim Tebow was eating mayonnaise would anybody care? No, I would laugh. Hard.

Don't make a bigger deal of it then it is. It was a dumb comment, he's been punished, move on.

Dom Heffner
10-28-2009, 09:30 AM
Again- if the race car driver were black, would it be appropriate to ask if he were off eating watermelon?

And Caveat: it's not about appearance, it's about heritage. There is a difference. This isn't about Montoya looking Hispanic, it's about him being that way (even though Griese even messed up his country of origin). The comparison you offer would never be considered offensive because it has no racial connotations. It's a feature that all races could have.

Maybe if Hideki Matsui gets a night off tonight, Tim McCarver can ponder if he's off eating a dog somewhere (I get that Matsui is not Vietnamese, but it would match perfectly with what Griese said).

durl
10-28-2009, 11:04 AM
Wow, how impressive. A bunch of white dudes hanging out on a message board arguing for more leeway in making racial stereotypes.

On the other hand, you have a bunch of "white dudes" up at ESPN that are telling Colombians what should offend them. I haven't heard a comment from Montoya (or any other Colombian, for that matter) to find out if they took offense to Griese's remark.

It seems that in many of these instances, the biggest outrage comes from those who are not part of the potentially "offended" group, but simply choose to speak for them.

A prime example was when schoolchildren were told to stop singing Christmas carols in the middle of a program attended by skater Sasha Cohen. A city official didn't want Cohen to be offended because she's half-Jewish, but didn't realize Cohen celebrates Christmas. http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/16213191

Unassisted
10-28-2009, 11:35 AM
You think? I don't live that far from you and half of my family is Hispanic and I bet you 100 tacos that if they'd have heard they would have thought it was funny as hell. Well....most of them some wouldn't care one way or another.I do think he'd be gone. 24 hours wouldn't elapse before LULAC would be picketing in front of that local station.

Sea Ray
10-28-2009, 11:36 AM
The reason he should be suspended for the joke is because the joke is offensive.

I don't think a requirement of employment should be that you can never offend people. It's high time folks deal with being offended. It's another example of how we're becoming a bunch of wimps.

In today's culture you could never get away with the cartoon character Speedy Gonzales. You couldn't have a Jetson's show devoted to the horrors of Jane (a female) getting her driver's license. Instead we tolerate back talking, out of control kids in today's cartoons.

I don't think every TV personality should have to worry about offending someone every time they talk. I wish Montoya had reacted to this by taking Griese out to lunch for Tacos and told the Press he's a bigger man than to let comments like this bother him. The sooner someone handles it like that, the sooner we can get past this...

Sea Ray
10-28-2009, 11:43 AM
Dom, my point about comedy clubs was not to relate it to a football broadcast, but rather, jokes are a part of a broadcast. You're basically saying that no football broadcaster should be joking. Right? Because he doesn't get paid to give jokes? Somehow, I don't think that's your point. So since it isn't....

Then since every broadcaster I've ever heard has made a joke or two in a broadcast, who cares that he told a joke? Since it's not terribly different from what comedians are telling, why is this any worse?. My point is what came out of Griese's mouth is a lot less offensive than most of the stuff coming out of minorities' mouths on comedy programs, but whites aren't on a witch hunt trying to stop those comments. Your point about advertisers paying big money is irrelevant. So what? If you get some Mexicans terribly offended by it, and they revolt against the advertisers, then sure, it's something ESPN would have to deal with. But other than the PC police, I don't see anyone that actually believes this was 'offensive', at least the people that would be in a position to be offended. It was a silly little throwaway joke. It should never have been an issue to begin with.


If the PC police really want to make an issue out of this then it does have to apply across the board

Italians: Mafia
Germans/Irish: beer drinkers
Russians: Vodka drinkers
Asians: Brainy

Do we really want to speed our time policing such things?

I think we can put our energies to better things

Sea Ray
10-28-2009, 11:47 AM
On the other hand, you have a bunch of "white dudes" up at ESPN that are telling Colombians what should offend them. I haven't heard a comment from Montoya (or any other Colombian, for that matter) to find out if they took offense to Griese's remark.



So what if they are? No one has a right to not be offended. Deal with it and move on.

camisadelgolf
10-28-2009, 11:52 AM
So you're saying that if Montoya happened to be Mexican and Griese made the comment there wouldn't be a big fluff? Griese does look dumb because Montoya is Colombian.

This thread seemed to be discussing stereotypes in general, and that's what I was responding to.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying that if Montoya were Mexican, at least his comment would have been less ignorant and possibly very slightly less offensive.

Tony Cloninger
10-28-2009, 11:56 AM
IF things had not been so the other way during ...or before the PC police started coming out in force during the early 90's....then maybe things would not have become like they are.

The was a LIFE article written in the 40's..or about there... describing one of the US greatest heroes..Joe DiMaggio... "as a greasy...oily hair man". Sorry i do not have the article exactly as is... But i read it and remember clearly reading how it was done several years back at a college library which kept back issues of many magazines going back to the early 1900's.

Now I know Griese was trying to be funny and is no racist at all... however if it had been someone who had a twang in his voice or it was good old Rush Limbaugh...then it might be a bigger uproar.

camisadelgolf
10-28-2009, 11:58 AM
It's really easy to call offended people wimps when you haven't had to deal with what they deal with on a daily basis. Does it make sense to call a black person a wimp if he/she gets offended by me calling him/her a monkey? The reason we wouldn't allow Speedy Gonzalez in today's culture is because our culture is becoming more equal and aware.

Also, just imagine if Montoya retaliated with a similar comment about Americans. "Leave it to an American like Griese to make a stupid comment about food." I bet you the fans would side with Griese and rip into Montoya way worse than what Griese's currently dealing with.

bucksfan2
10-28-2009, 11:58 AM
Again- if the race car driver were black, would it be appropriate to ask if he were off eating watermelon?

And Caveat: it's not about appearance, it's about heritage. There is a difference. This isn't about Montoya looking Hispanic, it's about him being that way (even though Griese even messed up his country of origin). The comparison you offer would never be considered offensive because it has no racial connotations. It's a feature that all races could have.

Maybe if Hideki Matsui gets a night off tonight, Tim McCarver can ponder if he's off eating a dog somewhere (I get that Matsui is not Vietnamese, but it would match perfectly with what Griese said).

I see what you are saying, but that shouldn't be offensive. In society we have let it become offensive because of a small vocal minority.

Would it be offensive if he made a comment about Dario Franchitti eating pasta?

It is just an opinion, but we have let the political correctness in America go to a ridiculous point where anything and everything is offensive.

Bob Griese's comment was stupid, but it wasn't suspension worthy. I wish Griese would tell ESPN and Dinsey to shove it and not return.

Sea Ray
10-28-2009, 12:16 PM
The reason we wouldn't allow Speedy Gonzalez in today's culture is because our culture is becoming more equal and aware.



Yeah right. That cartoon really caused problems, didn't it? I'm sure it sent thousands into therapy for self esteem issues.

You made my point beautifully. That is that the PC culture has gotten so ridiculous that even an innocent cartoon is now considered taboo due to an elite attitude that we're "more enlightened" now.

Tony Cloninger
10-28-2009, 12:20 PM
Speaking of cartoons... this is how in tune a kid is at age... 8-15.. At least I did not understand that 2 magpies talking to each other...was construed as reference to Amos and Andy..and that sort of caricature.

That cartoon I am sure did not put anybody into therapy either.....but Amos and Andy did not do much to advance any pre-conceived stereotypes.

camisadelgolf
10-28-2009, 12:28 PM
Yeah right. That cartoon really caused problems, didn't it? I'm sure it sent thousands into therapy for self esteem issues.

You made my point beautifully. That is that the PC culture has gotten so ridiculous that even an innocent cartoon is now considered taboo due to an elite attitude that we're "more enlightened" now.
In other words, you think it's better to sacrifice enlightenment and laugh at other people's expense by promoting ethnic stereotypes. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Sea Ray
10-28-2009, 01:26 PM
In other words, you think it's better to sacrifice enlightenment and laugh at other people's expense by promoting ethnic stereotypes. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


I think we should be strong enough to laugh at ourselves.

Where we disagree is on what is "enlightenment".

Caveat Emperor
10-28-2009, 01:51 PM
In other words, you think it's better to sacrifice enlightenment and laugh at other people's expense by promoting ethnic stereotypes. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Every laugh is at someone's expense. It's really the foundation of humor -- from laughing at someone who takes a pie in the face to a joke about some people who are annoying drivers on the highway.

Yachtzee
10-28-2009, 02:20 PM
If the PC police really want to make an issue out of this then it does have to apply across the board

Italians: Mafia
Germans/Irish: beer drinkers
Russians: Vodka drinkers
Asians: Brainy

Do we really want to speed our time policing such things?

I think we can put our energies to better things

I don't think Germans or Irish would be offended by being called beer drinkers, because drinking beer isn't necessarily considered a bad thing by most of us. However, if you really want to get Germans riled up, start making jokes using Nazi or Prussian stereotypes and see how much they like it. Or start making comments about the Irish being dirty, poor, potato-eating drunk lazy bastards and you might find some take offense.

If you'd like to hang out somewhere where people have free reign to use whatever ethnic or racial stereotypes they want, spend some time in Europe. You'll see all kinds of ethnic and racial stereotypes in both private discourse and in the media. Unfortunately, you'll find that the stereotypes they use the most relate to Americans. Nothing like having people treat you like you're stupid because you're an American and "everyone" knows the American education system blows. Canadians cover themselves in maple leafs when traveling in Europe just so people won't mistake them for American.

The thing is, no one is telling ESPN they have to suspend Griese or do anything. There is no government agency demanding ESPN punish Griese. ESPN is acting on its own accord as a private business because it doesn't want to lose viewers. Employers have a right to determine what they find appropriate commentary of their employees.

jimbo
10-28-2009, 02:26 PM
I don't think Germans or Irish would be offended by being called beer drinkers, because drinking beer isn't necessarily considered a bad thing by most of us.

Neither is eating tacos.

Yachtzee
10-28-2009, 02:32 PM
Every laugh is at someone's expense. It's really the foundation of humor -- from laughing at someone who takes a pie in the face to a joke about some people who are annoying drivers on the highway.

I think there's a difference between laughing at personal conduct and laughing and someone for broad generalizations based on their ethnic background.

Yachtzee
10-28-2009, 02:37 PM
Neither is eating tacos.

It's not my place to say whether latin americans would be offended by that type of statement. I can speak of Germans or Irish because of my own ethnic background and beer isn't a drink that is specific to Germans or Irish. ESPN can decide what's appropriate for Griese to say because of the employer/employee relationship.

jimbo
10-28-2009, 02:56 PM
It's not my place to say whether latin americans would be offended by that type of statement. I can speak of Germans or Irish because of my own ethnic background and beer isn't a drink that is specific to Germans or Irish. ESPN can decide what's appropriate for Griese to say because of the employer/employee relationship.

I hear what you are saying and I agree, to a certain extent, but I just feel that there is so much hypocrisy when it comes to being politically correct these days.

For example, there are a few media outlets today covering a story about Larry David. I won't go into detail here because I think the topic is against the site's rules, but I think many will find it very offensive. It'll barely get mentioned in the mainstream media though because the subject is not related to a minority base.

Pure hypocrisy.

wolfboy
10-28-2009, 02:57 PM
I'm 6'10" tall -- get asked if I played/play basketball about 5 times per day. That's a stereotype (tall man = likes and plays basketball) that people are comfortable voicing.

I had a buddy in law school who was a hefty dude -- 5'10 and probably close to 300. Never once heard anyone ask him if he enjoyed buffets or had a problem saying no to dessert. Nobody was EVER comfortable voicing that stereotype.

It's funny to me that there's this sliding scale with "judging people based on appearance" -- where we find certain things completely OK (like portraying Italians as hair-slicked-back mafia hitmen), but other things completely off the reservation and terrible (Juan Pablo Montoya eats tacos).

No one ever degrades people based upon a stereotype about being tall and playing basketball. People degrade others on the basis of a fat guy loving a buffet and desserts. Hence the sliding scale.

and FWIW, the mafia stereotype is extremely offensive to a lot of people. you just aren't paying attention.

kaldaniels
10-28-2009, 03:08 PM
I think as long as the remarks aren't mean-spirited, 95 percent of the people out there don't mind and even laugh at the occasional racial/heritage zinger.

What Bob Griese said really wasn't funny though. He gets no comedic points from me. Not a wise thing to say either...but not a big deal.

I live in a highly populated Latino area...most of the Mexicans I've spoken to have made a remark and enjoy remarks that the PC police would deem outrageous. The key...don't be mean-sprited.

In the sports league I play I've seen with my own eyes a remark to all the guys (white/black/hispanic) along the lines of "white guys are slow" bring the house down. In the real world, stuff like is cool to most people. Its interesting the see the dynamic change in a crowd like that when everyone realizes that everyone views each other as equals and are so over the "we live in a divided society attitude"

Spare me the outrage though. There are people out there in all walks of life (racial/political/religous) waiting to be offended. I don't think we should cater to them. Keep it civilized and move on.

kaldaniels
10-28-2009, 03:13 PM
What if it was a German driver with a German name. And Bob Griese said "He's eating sauerkraut".

Would this thread exist?

camisadelgolf
10-28-2009, 03:55 PM
What if it was a German driver with a German name. And Bob Griese said "He's eating sauerkraut".

Would this thread exist?
Possibly, but one thing for sure is that people would be less upset about it.

Brutus
10-28-2009, 03:58 PM
It's really easy to call offended people wimps when you haven't had to deal with what they deal with on a daily basis. Does it make sense to call a black person a wimp if he/she gets offended by me calling him/her a monkey? The reason we wouldn't allow Speedy Gonzalez in today's culture is because our culture is becoming more equal and aware.

Also, just imagine if Montoya retaliated with a similar comment about Americans. "Leave it to an American like Griese to make a stupid comment about food." I bet you the fans would side with Griese and rip into Montoya way worse than what Griese's currently dealing with.

Ummm...

What exactly is it they have to deal with on a daily basis? I am not going to say racism doesn't exist in this country, but let's not make it out to be like minorities have it tough these days.

You have minorities getting guaranteed admissions into schools should they elect to go to college, even if they have lesser scores. You have illegal aliens coming into this country and taking our jobs, being discovered, and not being forced to leave. You've got many places (NFL for example), forcing employers to interview certain number of minorities no matter how many candidates there are. Some places even require a certain percentage to be minority even if it's actually a higher percentage than the general population.

There are still some very ignorant people who are most certainly racist. But I'm sorry, let's not pretend this culture makes it hard on minorities. The affirmative action was a good step in the right direction 30 years ago. But it's become outdated and we continue to force feed it to segments of our society that don't need it - and by result, are giving a much larger benefit to minorities than to the majority population. That offends me. Who can I demand to be fired for that?

reds44
10-28-2009, 04:03 PM
Again- if the race car driver were black, would it be appropriate to ask if he were off eating watermelon?

Who is saying what he said was appropriate? Again, he the race car driver was white would anybody be talking about this if he asked if he was eating mayo?

camisadelgolf
10-28-2009, 04:11 PM
Ummm...

What exactly is it they have to deal with on a daily basis? I am not going to say racism doesn't exist in this country, but let's not make it out to be like minorities have it tough these days.
During the 90s and 00s, I grew up in two neighborhoods. In one neighborhood, there was a strong KKK presence, and the 'n' word was in pretty much everyone's everyday vocabulary. I witnessed people from several different ethnic backgrounds get people for simply looking different.

In the other neighborhood, I was the only minority family present, and every day on the bus, I was a victim of various hate crimes.

I really doubt there has been such a huge change in the past decade. If you think it isn't rough being a minority for a large percentage of the population, then I think you're out of touch with minorities.

Stereotyping in itself can be harmless, but I've never seen a form of racism that wasn't based on stereotypes.

westofyou
10-28-2009, 04:11 PM
Boo Hoo White guys got it hard...... Yawnnnnnnnn

wolfboy
10-28-2009, 04:33 PM
Ummm...

What exactly is it they have to deal with on a daily basis? I am not going to say racism doesn't exist in this country, but let's not make it out to be like minorities have it tough these days.

You have minorities getting guaranteed admissions into schools should they elect to go to college, even if they have lesser scores. You have illegal aliens coming into this country and taking our jobs, being discovered, and not being forced to leave. You've got many places (NFL for example), forcing employers to interview certain number of minorities no matter how many candidates there are. Some places even require a certain percentage to be minority even if it's actually a higher percentage than the general population.

There are still some very ignorant people who are most certainly racist. But I'm sorry, let's not pretend this culture makes it hard on minorities. The affirmative action was a good step in the right direction 30 years ago. But it's become outdated and we continue to force feed it to segments of our society that don't need it - and by result, are giving a much larger benefit to minorities than to the majority population. That offends me. Who can I demand to be fired for that?

I'm genuinely surprised that someone who doesn't make a baseball related post without a ton of facts to support it would make a non-baseball related post with nothing but broad generalizations and no facts to back it up.

Brutus
10-28-2009, 04:34 PM
During the 90s and 00s, I grew up in two neighborhoods. In one neighborhood, there was a strong KKK presence, and the 'n' word was in pretty much everyone's everyday vocabulary. I witnessed people from several different ethnic backgrounds get people for simply looking different.

In the other neighborhood, I was the only minority family present, and every day on the bus, I was a victim of various hate crimes.

I really doubt there has been such a huge change in the past decade. If you think it isn't rough being a minority for a large percentage of the population, then I think you're out of touch with minorities.

Stereotyping in itself can be harmless, but I've never seen a form of racism that wasn't based on stereotypes.

I suspect if you put a white guy in a predominantly black neighborhood, you'd see him be called a cracker every day. Those types of references cut both ways. Doesn't make them right, by any means, but I think beyond those two terms, the type of racism you're suggesting exists really does not exist on a wide scale. Only in a few remaining parts of the country and out in the backwoods type communities.

I'll say this, I graduated from a high school that was about 98% white. This was in the late 90's. And believe me, it was not a huge school or in a large metro area by any means. And you know what? The minorities were treated very well. That's not to say that because racism didn't exist in that community it doesn't exist in this country. But likewise, I don't think you can say because it existed for you that it exists on a large scale.

All I know is that I've had the benefit of moving around several places the last 10 years. I've lived in a few different parts of the country. I do not see race as being a major issue in most places. I think most Americans would agree with this. The terms you mention are reprehensible, but it's not any worse to be called that than a girl being called fat, some kid being called ugly or a special needs kid being called stupid. Minorities have it no more worse today being called a derogatory racial term than kids have it being called any of these things in school by their peers. They're all equally "tough" for kids to deal with.

Brutus
10-28-2009, 04:38 PM
I'm genuinely surprised that someone who doesn't make a baseball related post without a ton of facts to support it would make a non-baseball related post with nothing but broad generalizations and no facts to back it up.

Have you paid attention to society? Affirmative action IS fact. Are you not aware of the Rooney Rule? Do you not realize that studies have shown that some 45-50% of corporations have some sort of minority threshold for hiring? Do you know that it was estimated last year that the INS deported only roughly 10% of illegals it knew was living in this country?

I mean... these aren't generalizations... can anyone actually dispute the things I said? Public universities are required by law to approve a certain % of minority applicants each year no matter what their credentials. How can you call these things broad generalizations? Like it or not, this is the world we live in.

Caveat Emperor
10-28-2009, 04:41 PM
It's not my place to say whether latin americans would be offended by that type of statement.

I guess that's kinda my point -- shouldn't we wait for someone to say "Hey, I'm offended by that!" before we tar and feather the guy?

Caveat Emperor
10-28-2009, 04:43 PM
Also, as an aside -- this thread has been very civil so far and provided some interesting discussion.

Please keep it that way. This is a sensitive subject (and arguably on the borderline for what is/is not "Peanut Gallery" material) with many different opinions, but so far everyone's done a great job of respecting that.

I'd hate for myself or another mod to have to close this thread if people can't stay civil, though.

dabvu2498
10-28-2009, 04:50 PM
Being "treated well" and being treated as equals are two different things.

bucksfan2
10-28-2009, 05:19 PM
I guess that's kinda my point -- shouldn't we wait for someone to say "Hey, I'm offended by that!" before we tar and feather the guy?

Its kind of ironic that you used the phrase "tar and feather". You use that in a different context and people will claim discrimination.

I have read most of this thread and seen and have respected the different opinions. Unfortunately what I haven't seen or read is what Montoya thinks about the comment. Is he offended? Does he care? Is this the typical situation of a group picking up a cause when the so called offended doesn't care?

I think Montoya can put this all to bed by making a comment. If he wasn't offended he can say something like "I don't even like tacos" or "I was eating a cheese burger at the time"

Yachtzee
10-28-2009, 05:26 PM
I guess that's kinda my point -- shouldn't we wait for someone to say "Hey, I'm offended by that!" before we tar and feather the guy?

Well, ESPN already said they were offended by it by suspending the guy. Is there some kind of critical mass of outrage we have to wait for before it becomes wrong? I haven't really followed this incident beyond the initial report, but my experience from watching these things with regard to the Cleveland Indians/Chief Wahoo dispute with Native Americans is that it wouldn't matter anyway. Some group usually raises the alarm and then a bunch of anti-PC folks speak up saying that to do anything about it is just catering to a small group of whiney minorties, followed by anecdotal stories of how they have friends and/or family who are Native American/Hispanic/Black who have no problem with it and think it's funny/great.

Yachtzee
10-28-2009, 05:27 PM
During the 90s and 00s, I grew up in two neighborhoods. In one neighborhood, there was a strong KKK presence, and the 'n' word was in pretty much everyone's everyday vocabulary. I witnessed people from several different ethnic backgrounds get people for simply looking different.

In the other neighborhood, I was the only minority family present, and every day on the bus, I was a victim of various hate crimes.

I really doubt there has been such a huge change in the past decade. If you think it isn't rough being a minority for a large percentage of the population, then I think you're out of touch with minorities.

Stereotyping in itself can be harmless, but I've never seen a form of racism that wasn't based on stereotypes.

I'm sure you probably have some stories from Germany as well. I know I do.

kaldaniels
10-28-2009, 05:31 PM
Its kind of ironic that you used the phrase "tar and feather". You use that in a different context and people will claim discrimination.

I have read most of this thread and seen and have respected the different opinions. Unfortunately what I haven't seen or read is what Montoya thinks about the comment. Is he offended? Does he care? Is this the typical situation of a group picking up a cause when the so called offended doesn't care?

I think Montoya can put this all to bed by making a comment. If he wasn't offended he can say something like "I don't even like tacos" or "I was eating a cheese burger at the time"

One poster earlier speculated on the outrage that Montaya could create if he said "leave it to an American like Griese to make such a remark". If delivered properly (tongue in cheek), Montaya would come off looking great. Thats what I want to see.

camisadelgolf
10-28-2009, 05:36 PM
I'm sure you probably have some stories from Germany as well. I know I do.
Yes, unfortunately. Stories like these are everywhere in the world, but I don't necessarily think that makes an excuse to accept things for how they are.

Danny Serafini
10-28-2009, 05:37 PM
I have read most of this thread and seen and have respected the different opinions. Unfortunately what I haven't seen or read is what Montoya thinks about the comment. Is he offended? Does he care? Is this the typical situation of a group picking up a cause when the so called offended doesn't care?

Montoya said he didn't know who Griese was, and didn't really care about the comment. Pretty much a nonstory to him.

Edit - Here's the quote:

"I don't even know who he is," Montoya said. "Somebody mentioned it to me. I don't really care to tell you the truth. I could say I spent the last three hours eating tacos, but I was actually driving the car."

Yachtzee
10-28-2009, 05:43 PM
Yes, unfortunately. Stories like these are everywhere in the world, but I don't necessarily think that makes an excuse to accept things for how they are.

Oh, I agree with you. I just think people don't always realize how it feels to be on the other side of a stereotype.

Roy Tucker
10-28-2009, 06:06 PM
I have read most of this thread and seen and have respected the different opinions. Unfortunately what I haven't seen or read is what Montoya thinks about the comment. Is he offended? Does he care? Is this the typical situation of a group picking up a cause when the so called offended doesn't care?


http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1987348&postcount=10

Brutus
10-28-2009, 06:16 PM
Montoya said he didn't know who Griese was, and didn't really care about the comment. Pretty much a nonstory to him.

Edit - Here's the quote:

See, there you go. The person it was directed at isn't even bothered by the comment.

It really should have been a non-story to begin with. The people that could have been offended weren't even offended. The only ones claiming it was offensive were people it has absolutely no affect on.

The funny thing about society is that a lot of friendships involve folks from different races. Different cultures. The funny thing you find within these friendships is that people can joke to one another about their differences without being bothered by it. They know it's not offensive despite stereotypes. Yet, you make a public comment that you would make to a friend, everyone blows it way out of proportion. If people would simply remember we've advanced to a point in society where, individually and privately, we can joke with one another because we know we are not racist - not prejudice (in the negative sense of the word), then we could stop being so uptight toward these public comments.

We've reached a point in our existence where we truly do have equality, for the most part. We have equal rights for most. We have equal opportunities. We do not have equal results - nor should we. That should be based on the individual. And try as we do to the contrary, we recognize that we ARE different and we should embrace that as a positive thing. A positive we can joke about, make note of and learn from it. I think, now that the despicable time in our nation's history is past us (slavery, segregation, prisoner camps, etc.), we can say we're all Americans, we're all different, and we ALL know what it's like to be called a bad name, made fun of or have our feelings hurt. Let's stop targeting a subset of this practice and realize that we all should be able to be nice to each other but still be able to have a sense of humor.

redsfandan
10-28-2009, 06:47 PM
It's really easy to call offended people wimps when you haven't had to deal with what they deal with on a daily basis. Does it make sense to call a black person a wimp if he/she gets offended by me calling him/her a monkey? The reason we wouldn't allow Speedy Gonzalez in today's culture is because our culture is becoming more equal and aware. ...
I think this is completely different from the Cosell incident. Like kaldaniels pointed out:

I think as long as the remarks aren't mean-spirited, 95 percent of the people out there don't mind and even laugh at the occasional racial/heritage zinger. ....

The key...don't be mean-sprited.
If a remark is mean-spirited, demeaning, or otherwise derogatory THEN you have a problem. Is being accused of eating tacos really the same as being called a monkey?

Are there any people that share the same ethnicity as Montaya that have said that they are offended? Anywhere?

This does seem to me like an overreaction. What Griese said was a stupid thing to say. An apology was appropriate. It should've, and could've, ended there if ESPN had let it.


Oh, I agree with you. I just think people don't always realize how it feels to be on the other side of a stereotype.
I doubt there are many that haven't been stereotyped in some way, at some point, in their life. It's not that uncommon. Context is what is important. An incident like this just gives society a reason to look in the mirror and think about what is acceptable and what isn't. This country has changed alot in how people are treated. Discrimination was very common but now it's not. Now anytime someone says something stupid and inappropriate about someone in regards to their ethnicity it becomes a headline.

It seems that in many of these instances, the biggest outrage comes from those who are not part of the potentially "offended" group, but simply choose to speak for them.
I'm just amazed that there have been this many posts about this incident in only two days. Meanwhile, Montoya has gone on with his life like nothing happened.

camisadelgolf
10-28-2009, 06:47 PM
I think the words themselves were unoffensive, but it's ludicrous to me that so many people passionately believe that the act of ignorantly stereotyping someone on national television should be acceptable.

redsfandan
10-28-2009, 06:51 PM
I think the words themselves were unoffensive, but it's ludicrous to me that so many people passionately believe that the act of ignorantly stereotyping someone on national television should be acceptable.
It happens all the time. But usually it happens at night and not during a sporting event. Stupid mistake. He apologized. End of story. I wish.

Sea Ray
10-28-2009, 07:07 PM
Boo Hoo White guys got it hard...... Yawnnnnnnnn

Ditto for a successful driver like Montoya

Sea Ray
10-28-2009, 07:16 PM
It's not my place to say whether latin americans would be offended by that type of statement. I can speak of Germans or Irish because of my own ethnic background and beer isn't a drink that is specific to Germans or Irish. ESPN can decide what's appropriate for Griese to say because of the employer/employee relationship.

ESPN has the right to do it, I agree. And I have the right to say I think they're a bunch of politically correct east coasters (edited for this site). I could give countless examples of this and a couple have to do with Rush Limbaugh. They fired him for his Donovan McNabb comments and most recently in their First Take discussions on whether he should be allowed to buy the Rams no one mentioned that a lot of the racist comments attributed to him have never been proven to have come from his mouth. There are certain folks who appear on the Sports Reporters who can be guaranteed to bring up some sort of race issue every week. I could go on...

This is an ESPN culture thing and it's one of the things I like least about that network.

Boss-Hog
10-28-2009, 07:21 PM
Also, as an aside -- this thread has been very civil so far and provided some interesting discussion.

Please keep it that way. This is a sensitive subject (and arguably on the borderline for what is/is not "Peanut Gallery" material) with many different opinions, but so far everyone's done a great job of respecting that.

I'd hate for myself or another mod to have to close this thread if people can't stay civil, though.
Well said - it's been an interesting and mostly civil read so far.

GAC
10-28-2009, 07:33 PM
I hope it's an OSU game he is suspended from. I hate listening to that guy. He definitely doesn't care for OSU. I felt sorry for Speilman having to co-anchor with the guy.

camisadelgolf
10-28-2009, 08:35 PM
It happens all the time. But usually it happens at night and not during a sporting event. Stupid mistake. He apologized. End of story. I wish.
I wish it was over as soon as it happened, too, but there's a large group of people that think that what he said is acceptable. That's where I have a problem. When comments like Griese's become acceptable, it becomes a gateway to much more offensive comments that cause society to regress.

DTCromer
10-28-2009, 09:39 PM
I hope it's an OSU game he is suspended from. I hate listening to that guy. He definitely doesn't care for OSU. I felt sorry for Speilman having to co-anchor with the guy.

I feel sorry for anyone who has to work with Spielman.

Brutus
10-28-2009, 09:47 PM
I wish it was over as soon as it happened, too, but there's a large group of people that think that what he said is acceptable. That's where I have a problem. When comments like Griese's become acceptable, it becomes a gateway to much more offensive comments that cause society to regress.

In terms of race, a person couldn't be more off the mark when saying society is regressing. We've eliminated slavery, Jim Crow laws, segregation, allowed everyone to vote and, mostly, given everyone a fair chance to succeed in life despite gender, race or orientation. If Montoya doesn't think anything of the comment, why should anyone else?

If society is regressing beyond that point, it's only because of the segment of the population who have no humor and are trying to make everyone exactly the same. There are people that are trying for equal results, rather than equal opportunities. It wasn't the people that think this comment was OK that made this an issue. It was ESPN quickly suspending Griese for an innocent joke and the PC police jumping on it as an outrage that even made it an issue.

As long as you don't have malice intent with a comment, it generally should be OK. Commenting on someone eating a taco is, at worst, in inaccurate harmless stereotype, and at best, a silly little joke that we all can accept each background having different tastes and different interests.

It's unfortunate people have to try to make things bigger than the are.

Humor doesn't make a person a racist. Pointing out differences in race doesn't make someone a racist. Commentating on race relations or what should be acceptable doesn't make someone racist. I really wish people would lighten up. That's not advocating racism - that's advocating everyone being light-hearted toward fellow man.

A lot of us have been stereotyped. You learn to smile and realize it's usually harmless. If someone can't do that, I don't think society is the problem.

Sea Ray
10-28-2009, 10:56 PM
I wish it was over as soon as it happened, too, but there's a large group of people that think that what he said is acceptable. That's where I have a problem. When comments like Griese's become acceptable, it becomes a gateway to much more offensive comments that cause society to regress.

Count me in that group. I think it's acceptable, albeit not funny. And if you think I'm a knuckle dragging Neanderthal, fine. I am not offended.

Brutus
10-28-2009, 11:09 PM
Count me in that group. I think it's acceptable, albeit not funny. And if you think I'm a knuckle dragging Neanderthal, fine. I am not offended.

I look at it like this... if the actual act that defines the stereotype is not something that should offend someone, then the stereotype itself is by association, harmless.

Who here would be offended by being labeled someone that eats tacos? I know I admit to eating tacos. I love tacos. If I'm ever accused of being out eating tacos, I must confess to likely being guilty as charged.

Dom Heffner
10-29-2009, 01:19 AM
Every laugh is at someone's expense. It's really the foundation of humor -- from laughing at someone who takes a pie in the face to a joke about some people who are annoying drivers on the highway.

No, every laugh is not at someone's expense, and this point makes Griese's comments seem worse, truthfully.

You can make jokes about all sorts of things without making someone else the butt of a joke.

If anything, you make fun of yourself.

You of all people should know the one thing that is absolutely forbidden in sports commentary is anything to do with race. Griese should know it, too. He is representing ESPN and its advertisers. You simply can't do it, whether harm is intended or not. There are thousands of words in the English language, string some together that don't involve race. It's not difficult.

The remarks were not appropriate for a sportscast, nor should they ever be.

This has been a great discussion on a great message board.

But you don''t do that on television where it isn't expected. Even if Brutus the Pimp isn't offended, remarks like that have the potential to blow up in a network's face.

The reason it's risky is this: for a joke like that to be funny, Griese has to have some relationship with the driver that the audience is aware of. To just look at a name, identify it as Hispanic, and then make such a lousy joke....it just isn't funny, and I'm sorry, it's a racist comment. It doesn't rank up there with the worst racist joke ever told, but it's insensitive- not because eating tacos is a bad thing, but because someone of another culture is making assumption about a person of different descent based on their last name.

I think people do lighten up with this stuff when there is a relationship there. Bob Griese does not have a known and publicized relationship with the Hispanic community. He can't do it- it doesn't work, and if you don't believe me, listen for him this week.

My question to the Griese defenders would be, what makes this joke funny? I mean, how was Bob Griese intending this to be a joke? With most jokes you can explain the set up, the punch line, and why a joke is funny.

What is funny about "He's off eating a taco"?

I would love for Brutus to walk us through the joke- explain why this joke is funny.

kaldaniels
10-29-2009, 01:37 AM
Dom...

It wasn't a funny joke. But there has been an overreaction from some...even saying Greise should no longer be employed. Is that a fair take?

Treading dangerously here, no malice intended...

There are some out there, who "act" offended on behalf of the supposedly offended group in order to advance their own image/agenda. That's just my opinion.

*BaseClogger*
10-29-2009, 02:52 AM
I feel sorry for anyone who has to work with Spielman.

That's funny.

I was watching the game, thinking about how Speilman always has something insightful to say and how he uses his knowledge of the game as part of his analysis. At the same time, I thought about how Griese relies on tired old cliches.

Then, Spielman made a comment about the NASCAR standings because he actually knew something about the drivers involved with the standings. Bob Griese knew nothing, so he made a taco joke.

I'll take Spielman...

Roy Tucker
10-29-2009, 09:33 AM
I think its difficult to come to grips with racism when its a matter of degrees. Racism is such a loaded word and carries such weight.

For example, I find it hard to throw Griese in with the KKK. Was his comment anywhere close to that kind of racism? No. But did his comment have racial overtones? Yes. Was it harmful? Well, it does perpetuate racial streotypes which isn't a good thing. Should it have been said on over-the-air TV during a college football game? No.

Like many have said, its a matter of context. If this comment would have been made during something like "Hard Knocks" where it was said in the locker roo, well then, OK. If it were mentioned on an ESPN program about hidden racism in sports, OK. If it were in a movie about raunchy college guys, OK. If I were out with the guys and it was said in jest to a friend over beers, OK.

But in a broadcast college football game? Nope. Not the place or the time.

Dom Heffner
10-29-2009, 01:18 PM
There are some out there, who "act" offended on behalf of the supposedly offended group in order to advance their own image/agenda. That's just my opinion.

Is that what is happening here? The only people who got upset were ESPN, and with millions of advertising dollars at stake, could you blame them?

From another perspective, what I also see is people dismissing anything labeled as being racist becuase they are tired of seeing and hearing things about it. It's human nature, I think.

I think where some aren't seeing this is from simply a majority to minority viewpoint.

The majority in this country- white people- aren't going to be as sensitive to jokes about themselves because they hold the power. There may or may not be ill will in a joke told towards them by a minority, but truthfully, what does the majority have to fear?

Would it be different if whites were the minority and a black announcer said, "We'll we know Jeff Gordon isn't dancing somewhere."

I think it would hit you differently.

The joke isn't what is awful, it's the fact that you never know what someone is hiding behind a remark, and it could be considered quite telling that of all the things to say, that's what popped out of Griese's mouth.

My feeling is it was an honest mistake, and the one game suspension seems appropriate, I guess.

From ESPN and an edvertising perspective, I really don't care if Griese meant it or not- I don't want my consumer base even raising the question.

savafan
10-29-2009, 01:38 PM
I used to be the only white guy living in an all black neighborhood in Dayton, where everyone used to call me "Snowflake". Somehow that never offended me.

redsfandan
10-29-2009, 07:09 PM
The majority in this country- white people- aren't going to be as sensitive to jokes about themselves because they hold the power. There may or may not be ill will in a joke told towards them by a minority, but truthfully, what does the majority have to fear?

I could be wrong but I don't think white people have been the majority for awhile.


My feeling is it was an honest mistake, and the one game suspension seems appropriate, I guess.
Glad to see you don't want to see him canned anymore.

I used to be the only white guy living in an all black neighborhood in Dayton, where everyone used to call me "Snowflake". Somehow that never offended me.
Or the crack about the oreo cookie. That stuff never bothered me. I just threw it back at them. It's all in fun.

Dom Heffner
10-29-2009, 09:00 PM
I used to be the only white guy living in an all black neighborhood in Dayton, where everyone used to call me "Snowflake". Somehow that never offended me.

But they wouldn't call you that on a nationally televised football game would they?

traderumor
10-29-2009, 09:44 PM
Wow, how impressive. A bunch of white dudes hanging out on a message board arguing for more leeway in making racial stereotypes.

Here's what I'm sick of Brutus: People not getting it through their skull that you don't say things like this on a national broadcast. Bob Griese doesn't know this guy well enough to poke fun at his heritage.

If Bob Griese worked for me, he'd be looking for work not only next Sunday, but every Sunday for the rest of his life.

Hispanics make up a portion of a television audience, and advertisers don't pay money to hear the lilly white commentators assume what type of food someone is eating becuase their skin is a certain shade.

It's offensive, and if you can't understand that, I feel sorry for you.

It isn't offensive to you because you aren't Hispanic.

Part of being a human being is putting yourself in somebody's else's shoes.

What would Traderumor say if the driver in question was known for his religious beliefs and the announcer said, "Aw, he's probably off eating a communion wafer..."

Griese's joke is this: the guy has a Mexican sounding name, therefore he is off eating a taco.

On what planet does that have a place on a nationally televised football game?I'm a Baptist, so it would probably be more like "he's probably at a potluck." So, the answer is, I would take it as seriously as Montoya--not at all. The joke was bad, the comment was inane, and you seem to be at an extreme end of this issue. Balance, balance, balance.

Something I am tired of is suggesting that the sellers of advertising have to cowtow to the "offenses" of their customers as an apology for questionable remarks made through the media. If that is the only thing ESPN is thinking about, then they are just a harlot with johns called advertisers.

Brutus
10-29-2009, 11:24 PM
No, every laugh is not at someone's expense, and this point makes Griese's comments seem worse, truthfully.

You can make jokes about all sorts of things without making someone else the butt of a joke.

If anything, you make fun of yourself.

You of all people should know the one thing that is absolutely forbidden in sports commentary is anything to do with race. Griese should know it, too. He is representing ESPN and its advertisers. You simply can't do it, whether harm is intended or not. There are thousands of words in the English language, string some together that don't involve race. It's not difficult.

The remarks were not appropriate for a sportscast, nor should they ever be.

This has been a great discussion on a great message board.

But you don''t do that on television where it isn't expected. Even if Brutus the Pimp isn't offended, remarks like that have the potential to blow up in a network's face.

The reason it's risky is this: for a joke like that to be funny, Griese has to have some relationship with the driver that the audience is aware of. To just look at a name, identify it as Hispanic, and then make such a lousy joke....it just isn't funny, and I'm sorry, it's a racist comment. It doesn't rank up there with the worst racist joke ever told, but it's insensitive- not because eating tacos is a bad thing, but because someone of another culture is making assumption about a person of different descent based on their last name.

I think people do lighten up with this stuff when there is a relationship there. Bob Griese does not have a known and publicized relationship with the Hispanic community. He can't do it- it doesn't work, and if you don't believe me, listen for him this week.

My question to the Griese defenders would be, what makes this joke funny? I mean, how was Bob Griese intending this to be a joke? With most jokes you can explain the set up, the punch line, and why a joke is funny.

What is funny about "He's off eating a taco"?

I would love for Brutus to walk us through the joke- explain why this joke is funny.

It doesn't matter if the joke is or isn't funny. Bad jokes are made all the time. It's a matter of whether it's a big deal.

The more important question is: why would anyone be offended about being said to be eating tacos? I laughed at the joke, probably because there's something funny to me about tacos. It was an off the cuff remark and just so random that I laughed. I'm not sure it was a great joke, but just random. But I don't see how on earth anyone can call that offensive. Honestly... you big bad taco eater!

Stereotypes aren't all bad. They're usually unnecessary, but that doesn't mean anyone should be offended by them. This stereotype is about as harmless as it gets. Unless something is specifically harmful, I don't see a problem with it - even on national television. Like I said, broadcasters make jokes all the time. They clearly were talking about racing, as they were promoting the sport, so a joke about a driver is not taboo.

I just think this is another example of folks trying to look for a reason to come down on someone. I think everyone should lighten up and have a good laugh. Even if it wasn't a good joke, just say "you aren't funny Griese" and move on.

Redsfaithful
10-30-2009, 01:53 AM
All I know is that I've had the benefit of moving around several places the last 10 years. I've lived in a few different parts of the country. I do not see race as being a major issue in most places.

What part of Atlanta do you live in, because the suburbs are racist as hell. I played in a bunch of tennis leagues when I lived down there so I was meeting at least 4-5 random people a week and it was shocking how casual quite a few people were about it. I'd go so far as to say it's definitely part of the culture down there.

Anyway, no the comment wasn't that big of a deal, but I also don't see anyone really up in arms about it apart from people upset that Griese isn't free to stay stupid crap like this (and ESPN who has a lot of money invested in Griese not saying idiotic things).

I've thought for years Griese should be out of a job, but moreso because he's a terrible announcer ...

Brutus
10-30-2009, 02:44 AM
What part of Atlanta do you live in, because the suburbs are racist as hell. I played in a bunch of tennis leagues when I lived down there so I was meeting at least 4-5 random people a week and it was shocking how casual quite a few people were about it. I'd go so far as to say it's definitely part of the culture down there.

Anyway, no the comment wasn't that big of a deal, but I also don't see anyone really up in arms about it apart from people upset that Griese isn't free to stay stupid crap like this (and ESPN who has a lot of money invested in Griese not saying idiotic things).

I've thought for years Griese should be out of a job, but moreso because he's a terrible announcer ...

Marietta, but I've been all over the place - Smyrna, Roswell, Buckhead, midtown, Peachtree Park, Alpharetta and Sandy Springs. Basically most places North of downtown. The groups I have hung out with are about as diverse as could possibly be and never thought a thing of it.

Ravenlord
10-30-2009, 02:51 AM
But they wouldn't call you that on a nationally televised football game would they?

about 70/30 they would if they somehow got a national chance. but i'd say of that 70, right around half meant it in an actual hateful way...that was a scary but fun neighborhood depending on time of day and week.:beerme:

savafan
10-30-2009, 01:41 PM
But they wouldn't call you that on a nationally televised football game would they?

If the game was nationally televised on BET, perhaps. :p:

George Anderson
10-30-2009, 02:14 PM
Now I know Griese was trying to be funny and is no racist at all... however if it had been someone who had a twang in his voice or it was good old Rush Limbaugh...then it might be a bigger uproar.

I have zero problem with what Griese said. However its comical to see ESPN only suspend him for one game for what is perceived by some as a racial slight when they basically fired Limbaugh for making a much less offensive statement in regards to the media's love affair for McNabb.

ESPN was even more hypocritical for not firing let alone disciplining Michael Irvin for his bigoted and hateful comments about Tony Romo having slave blood. Funny how Irvin's comments that are much more offensive than anything Griese or Limbaugh said just seemed to of been ignored by ESPN and the main stream media.

http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/9822797/1

BoxingRed
10-30-2009, 02:27 PM
What part of Atlanta do you live in, because the suburbs are racist as hell. I played in a bunch of tennis leagues when I lived down there so I was meeting at least 4-5 random people a week and it was shocking how casual quite a few people were about it. I'd go so far as to say it's definitely part of the culture down there.

I was going to ask Brutus the same thing. I have often encountered racism in Atlanta despite having a huge majority of black people. As Redfaithful pointed out, the Burbs are filled with white-flighters.

I live in SC and racism is still very much a part of the daily culture here. Though I would argue that it is prevalent everywhere. The fact is, there are more minorities in the South and much more interaction between races, as opposed to say Minnesota, thus more opportunities for people to show their prejudices.

There are good sides to the daily interactions as well, as I see racism declining among young people. More interracial couple of all sorts than would have been seen as acceptable 20 years ago.

I see both sides of the Greise argument. but there are so many other people that can do Greise's job. I would fire him and find some one with better judgement.

Brutus
10-30-2009, 02:28 PM
I have zero problem with what Griese said. However its comical to see ESPN only suspend him for one game for what is perceived by some as a racial slight when they basically fired Limbaugh for making a much less offensive statement in regards to the media's love affair for McNabb.

ESPN was even more hypocritical for not firing let alone disciplining Michael Irvin for his bigoted and hateful comments about Tony Romo having slave blood. Funny how Irvin's comments that are much more offensive than anything Griese or Limbaugh said just seemed to of been ignored by ESPN and the main stream media.

http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/9822797/1

This is the exact double-standard I was referring to when I mentioned black comedians saying some terribly racy things in stand-up. If a minority makes a racist comment, it largely goes unnoticed and everyone shrugs their shoulders. But anything that can remotely be construed as stereotypical (and not necessarily even racist) in the public eye by a white male, they're attacked mercilessly. I truly dislike the sensitivity altogether when it comes to stereotype comments in the media, if they're harmless, but I especially hate the double-standard that exists with regard to who says them.

westofyou
10-30-2009, 03:29 PM
I was going to ask Brutus the same thing. I have often encountered racism in Atlanta despite having a huge majority of black people. As Redfaithful pointed out, the Burbs are filled with white-flighters.



Yep, North and OTP in Atlanta is nothing like downtown in any way. Alpharetta is the land of the white flighters.

Dom Heffner
10-30-2009, 11:08 PM
This is the exact double-standard I was referring to when I mentioned black comedians saying some terribly racy things in stand-up.

Thought you weren't comparing comedians to ESPN broadcasts?

Look- people pay money to hear a comedian- they know what to expect. They accept that there will be off-color humor. Comedians, by definition, tell jokes.

Nobody is expecting Bob Griese to lay a Mexican joke out on a college football game. He is not a comedian. He is a commentator.

There is a difference.

As for your theory of "if the joke isn't referencing doing anything offensive..." let's put that to the test:

Is eating watermelon offensive? Nope. But I dare you to go up to a black person and say, "You big watermelon eater!" Or go up to a Mexican and say, "You big taco eater!"

Something's not right is it?

The problem is the way you are framing your argument.

You are focusing on the punch line, not the premise of the joke.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with eating tacos. There is nothing wrong with eating watermelon.

But when we assume that a person is eating either simply based on the color of their skin or heritage, it's a racial stereotype.

For you to say you wouldn't be offended by someone saying you ate tacos is proof of nothing- you are a white guy, and there isn't a stereotype, based solely on your heritage, that you enjoy tacos. Nobody would say this to you, and if they did, you would not be offended because there is nothing to be offended about. The joke wouldn't make sense, would it?

You aren't Mexican.

If you think what Bob Griese said is not offensive, I would like you, tomorrow, to go up to a Hispanic person that you don't know and say, "You big taco eater!"

That's what Bob Griese did, essentially.

And you don't have the guts, believe me.

George Anderson
10-30-2009, 11:14 PM
Thought you weren't comparing comedians to ESPN broadcasts?

Look- people pay money to hear a comedian- they know what to expect. They accept that there will be off-color humor. Comedians, by definition, tell jokes.

Nobody is expecting Bob Griese to lay a Mexican joke out on a college football game. He is not a comedian. He is a commentator.

There is a difference.

As for your theory of "if the joke isn't referencing doing anything offensive..." let's put that to the test:

Is eating watermelon offensive? Nope. But I dare you to go up to a black person and say, "You big watermelon eater!" Or go up to a Mexican and say, "You big taco eater!"

Something's not right is it?

The problem is the way you are framing your argument.

You are focusing on the punch line, not the premise of the joke.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with eating tacos. There is nothing wrong with eating watermelon.

But when we assume that a person is eating either simply based on the color of their skin or heritage, it's a racial stereotype.

For you to say you wouldn't be offended by someone saying you ate tacos is proof of nothing- you are a white guy, and there isn't a stereotype, based solely on your heritage, that you enjoy tacos. Nobody would say this to you, and if they did, you would not be offended because there is nothing to be offended about. The joke wouldn't make sense, would it?

You aren't Mexican.

If you think what Bob Griese said is not offensive, I would like you, tomorrow, to go up to a Hispanic person that you don't know and say, "You big taco eater!"

That's what Bob Griese did, essentially.

And you don't have the guts, believe me.

Ok, I am Irish. Should I be offended if someone accuses me of being a drunk because I am Irish??

Because when people have said similar comments about the Irish being drunks I am not in the least bit offended because in my inner circle and in the Irish, Catholic community that I grew up in, I know that stereotype about the Irish is very much true.

So am I wrong to not be offended???

Dom Heffner
10-30-2009, 11:18 PM
Ok, I am Irish. Should I be offended if someone accuses me of being a drunk because I am Irish??

Because when people have said similar comments about the Irish being drunks I am not in the least bit offended because in my inner circle and in the Irish, Catholic community that I grew up in, I know that stereotype about the Irish is very much true.

So am I wrong to not be offended???

So, George, you would go up to a Mexican that you don't know, tomorrow, and say, "Hey you big taco eater!"?

I mean, there's nothing wrong with eating tacos, so why would that be a not so smart thing to do? According to Brutus, you should be able to go up to a complete stranger and say that without any problem at all.

I live here in Florida, and I'm thinking you wouldn't be the most popular guy on the block if you did that.

westofyou
10-30-2009, 11:25 PM
So, George, you would go up to a Mexican that you don't know, tomorrow, and say, "Hey you big taco eater!"?

Is that what you are saying?

That would be polite? That would be cool?

I live here in Florida, and I'm thinking you wouldn't be the most popular guy on the block if you did that.

In the 1890's the Irish were essentially like the blacks as far as store owners felt, I suppose being Irish then was bit harder than being Irish today.

Brutus
10-30-2009, 11:25 PM
Thought you weren't comparing comedians to ESPN broadcasts?

Look- people pay money to hear a comedian- they know what to expect. They accept that there will be off-color humor. Comedians, by definition, tell jokes.

Nobody is expecting Bob Griese to lay a Mexican joke out on a college football game. He is not a comedian. He is a commentator.

There is a difference.

As for your theory of "if the joke isn't referencing doing anything offensive..." let's put that to the test:

Is eating watermelon offensive? Nope. But I dare you to go up to a black person and say, "You big watermelon eater!" Or go up to a Mexican and say, "You big taco eater!"

Something's not right is it?

The problem is the way you are framing your argument.

You are focusing on the punch line, not the premise of the joke.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with eating tacos. There is nothing wrong with eating watermelon.

But when we assume that a person is eating either simply based on the color of their skin or heritage, it's a racial stereotype.

For you to say you wouldn't be offended by someone saying you ate tacos is proof of nothing- you are a white guy, and there isn't a stereotype, based solely on your heritage, that you enjoy tacos. Nobody would say this to you, and if they did, you would not be offended because there is nothing to be offended about. The joke wouldn't make sense, would it?

You aren't Mexican.

If you think what Bob Griese said is not offensive, I would like you, tomorrow, to go up to a Hispanic person that you don't know and say, "You big taco eater!"

That's what Bob Griese did, essentially.

And you don't have the guts, believe me.

You don't know me well enough to tell me I don't have the guts. I don't bow down to the realm of political correctness. But what Griese did is tell a joke, not go up to someone and say "you eat tacos." There's a difference.

Why do you keep coming back to this "Griese is a football announcer thing." You still haven't answered directly - does that mean announcers can't tell jokes? That has absolutely nothing to do with this. Griese can tell jokes if he wants to, just like every announcer I have ever heard do a broadcast does. Even the most dry announcer tells a joke during the broadcast.

So he told a joke that is a stereotype. We all agree on that. What I'm saying is who cares as long as the stereotype isn't offensive. All you have established is that it is in fact a stereotype. We never disagreed on that. But if it's not an offensive one, then oh well.

You point about people going to listen to comedians is irrelevant. Just because I expect comedians to tell jokes doesn't mean I expect them to stereotype people. Either it's OK for people to tell stereotypical jokes or it's not. It's not OK for one group to make jokes but taboo for another. You said earlier in the conversation "it wasn't funny." So does that mean if the same joke would be told by a black comedian it would therefore not be acceptable because... it's not funny or because it was a stereotype? According to this latest response you gave, you make it sound like it's only OK to tell a racial joke if people expect you to tell jokes. That doesn't make sense.

George Anderson
10-30-2009, 11:28 PM
So, George, you would go up to a Mexican that you don't know, tomorrow, and say, "Hey you big taco eater!"?

Is that what you are saying?

That would be polite? That would be cool?

I guess its equally rude and uncool in your eyes to assume or insinuate that beer will be served on St. Pat's day because we don't wanna upset or offend some Irish people we don't know? Is it racist and offensive in your eyes to see St. Pat's day decorations with beer mugs that we typically see?? I am not being a smart, I just truly wanna know. Because as usual I see liberals such as yourself saying it is ok to stereotype against certain groups of people but when other groups are discriminated against then those people that did the discrimination must be destroyed.

.

Dom Heffner
10-30-2009, 11:33 PM
Why do you keep coming back to this "Griese is a football announcer thing." You still haven't answered directly - does that mean announcers can't tell jokes? That has absolutely nothing to do with this. Griese can tell jokes if he wants to, just like every announcer I have ever heard do a broadcast does. Even the most dry announcer tells a joke during the broadcast.


I have explained this.

Griese can tell jokes- he can't tell racial jokes. If he wants to kid about the weather, great. But a lilly white guy cracking jokes about a mexican eating a taco isn't something they can do.

So, the question goes, guys: If there is nothng wrong with eating tacos, do you think it would be appropriate to go up to a Mexican that you don't know and say, "Hi, you big taco eater"?

And George- lay off the political discussion. Seriously. This thread has worked hard and long at not being that.

George Anderson
10-30-2009, 11:36 PM
In the 1890's the Irish were essentially like the blacks as far as store owners felt, I suppose being Irish then was bit harder than being Irish today.

and being black in the 1890's was harder than being black today.

Regardless if you guys are on this crusade to ban all stereotyping then lets do so, but lets not be selective and choose certain groups that it is wrong to make stereotypes against. If a black athlete makes an offensive comment about a white athlete then make the punishment the same as if the white athlete made a offensive coment about a black athlete and do not just sweep the black players comments under the rug like it's been done so many times in the past. Until that day happens, sorry myself and many others see this as nothing but a political witchunt.

Brutus
10-30-2009, 11:43 PM
I have explained this.

Griese can tell jokes- he can't tell racial jokes. If he wants to kid about the weather, great. But a lilly white guy cracking jokes about a mexican eating a taco isn't something they can do.



Then you're contradicting yourself.

Because when I mentioned black comedians telling racist jokes all the time, here was your response:


Look- people pay money to hear a comedian- they know what to expect. They accept that there will be off-color humor. Comedians, by definition, tell jokes.

Nobody is expecting Bob Griese to lay a Mexican joke out on a college football game. He is not a comedian. He is a commentator.

So in essence, you're telling me it's OK for black comedians to tell racists jokes just because they get paid to tell jokes, but it's not OK for anyone else to tell a racist joke. If this is not your intent, this sure is the message you're giving. You ignored George's point about Micheal Irvin and haven't once condemned my point about black comedians telling racist jokes all the time without any criticism.

Your quoted text in an earlier post directly refutes your comments just now, as you have basically told me that comedians can tell racy jokes, but not football announcers.

Say you are Mexican in your example and go to watch a black comedian. Are you supposed to be any more/less offended by this same joke just because it was a comedian? That makes absolutely no sense. Either it's offensive or not. It doesn't matter who you are, who's telling it or what your occupation is. That Bob Griese is a football announcer makes absolutely no difference in the world. Either something is offensive or it isn't.

And make it clear, I don't find this offensive, and I'm offended by very, very little. I don't care about black, white, Asian or any other race of comedians telling jokes if they don't have the wrong intent. Nor do I care about a football announcer telling the same exact joke. And before you try to say I can't know what it's like, I know what it's like to be stereotyped too.

Dom Heffner
10-30-2009, 11:45 PM
and being black in the 1890's was harder than being black today.

Regardless if you guys are on this crusade to ban all stereotyping then lets do so, but lets not be selective and choose certain groups that it is wrong to make stereotypes against. If a black athlete makes an offensive comment about a white athlete then make the punishment the same as if the white athlete made a offensive coment about a black athlete and do not just sweep the black players comments under the rug like it's been done so many times in the past. Until that day happens, sorry myself and many others see this as nothing but a political witchunt.

Let's get back to the subject. Thanks.

Bob Griese's comment was inappropriate. Why or why not?

To say this guy did it too or these guys didn't- I simply don't care.

As a Mexican, would you like to tune into a white announcing team saying that if you weren't on the NASCAR leader board, you must be out eating a taco?

I mean, the guy couldn't be doing anything else, could he? Of course not, he's mexican! And everyone knows that all Mexicans do is eat tacos!!!!

That was the joke- that is offensive, whether Griese meant it to be or not.

Brutus
10-30-2009, 11:50 PM
Let's get back to the subject. Thanks.

Bob Griese's comment was inappropriate. Why or why not?

To say this guy did it too or these guys didn't- I simply don't care.

As a Mexican, would you like to tune into a white announcing team saying that if you weren't on the NASCAR leader board, you must be out eating a taco?

I mean, the guy couldn't be doing anything else, could he? Of course not, he's mexican! And everyone knows that all Mexicans do is eat tacos!!!!

That was the joke- that is offensive, whether Griese meant it to be or not.

Interesting that you still can't bring yourself to do it. You have yet to admit it's wrong for black comedians to tell race jokes if it's wrong for anyone to do it.

Unfortunately, I'm not surprised (and it's nothing against you). That simply seems to be the norm. It's only one group of people that get in trouble for making racist, prejudicial or stereotypical comments.

George Anderson
10-30-2009, 11:52 PM
.

So, the question goes, guys: If there is nothng wrong with eating tacos, do you think it would be appropriate to go up to a Mexican that you don't know and say, "Hi, you big taco eater"?

.

No I wouldn't make that comment but not because I think it's offensive, I just likely wouldn't say it. However when I was in Russia a few years back I did ask my guides who I barely knew at the time where I could get some good Vodka, not being smart again but should I of not said that?? Is that offensive asking Russians I don't know where to get Vodka??

You never answered my questions. Should I as an Irish person be offended that people refer to people of my heritage as drunks?? Is it offensive to see St. Pats Day decorations with beer mugs on them again lending to the stereotype that all Irish are drunks?? If it isn't offensive then I assume that Cinco De Mayo decorations with Taco's on them is ok also??

Dom Heffner
10-30-2009, 11:53 PM
So in essence, you're telling me it's OK for black comedians to tell racists jokes just because they get paid to tell jokes, but it's not OK for anyone else to tell a racist joke. If this is not your intent, this sure is the message you're giving. You ignored George's point about Micheal Irvin and haven't once condemned my point about black comedians telling racist jokes all the time without any criticism.


No, no, no.

Humor is about time and place. It is about appropriateness.

It is about knowing your audience.

It is about the relationship the comedian has with his audience.

Humor is not an either/or scenario as you have set up.

Answer the question, Brutus: If there is nothing wrong with eating tacos, would it be appropriate to go up to someone you did not know, whio is Mexican, and say exactly what you said: "Hey, you big taco eater?"

Brutus
10-31-2009, 12:00 AM
No, no, no.

Humor is about time and place. It is about appropriateness.

It is about knowing your audience.

It is about the relationship the comedian has with his audience.

Humor is not an either/or scenario as you have set up.

Answer the question, Brutus: If there is nothing wrong with eating tacos, would it be appropriate to go up to someone you did not know, whio is Mexican, and say exactly what you said: "Hey, you big taco eater?"

How is that related to telling a joke? I don't understand the question. What you're suggesting has no basis in reality. Of course I wouldn't do that because there's no reason to do it. But have I told jokes that involved stereotypes in front of a person of that race/culture/etc.? Absolutely I have. That's what Griese did. He had an audience and told a joke about the subject of discussion (remember they had a promo about this subject so it was being discussed at the time).

Anyhow, in essence, you're saying that it's OK to tell racial jokes if you're a comedian? Is that your answer? You're dancing around this like crazy. Basically... it's OK to tell racist jokes if the audience expects a racist joke. That's what you're saying, because you sure haven't said it's wrong.

Dom Heffner
10-31-2009, 12:03 AM
Interesting that you still can't bring yourself to do it. You have yet to admit it's wrong for black comedians to tell race jokes if it's wrong for anyone to do it.

Unfortunately, I'm not surprised (and it's nothing against you). That simply seems to be the norm. It's only one group of people that get in trouble for making racist, prejudicial or stereotypical comments.

Actually, I didn't see your post. I was typing another response.

If your argument is that there is a double standard in comedy, so Bob Griese can tell Mexican jokes on college football games, then this is a moot conversation.

There are no doubt double standards in comedy, but those are determined by the audience, aren't they?

Blacks make fun of blacks, it is funny. Blacks make fun of whites, it's funny (Chris Rock has a huge white following, doesn't he?).

White makes fun of blacks, not so funny.

I know plenty of white people who laugh at blacks telling jokes about whites. Those same people would not laugh at a white guy telling jokes about blacks.

I don't think it's as much a double standard as it has to do with the history of this country.

We enslaved blacks for hundreds of years- I mean the scars are everywhere.

It's still a sensitive subject for many.

Because of this, I'm not sure it's ever going to be equal.

Brutus
10-31-2009, 12:10 AM
.

Actually, I didn't see your post.

If your argument is that there is a double standard in comedy, so Bob Griese can tell Mexican jokes on college football games, then this is a moot conversation.

There are no doubt double standards in comedy, but those are determined by the audience, aren't they?

Blacks make fun of blacks, it is funny. Blacks make fun of whites, it's funny (Chris Rock has a huge white following, doesn't he?).

White makes fun of blacks, not so funny.

I know plenty of white people who laugh at blacks telling jokes about whites. Those same people would not laugh at a white guy telling jokes about blacks.

I don't think it's as much a double standard as it has to do with the history of this country.

We enslaved blacks for hundreds of years- I mean the scars are everywhere.

It's still a sensitive subject for many.

Because of this, I'm not sure it's ever going to be equal.

Well thank you for admitting the double standard. At least you admit there is one.

But don't you think we should make this fair for everyone? If we truly want to be color blind, should not the same standards apply to all people? Instead of telling me it's OK for black people or latinos to tell jokes about whites, but white people cannot do the same in reverse, then no one is truly looking for equality but rather a witch hunt. I don't care what happened in the past, if people are truly worried about making this a good world to live in, let's cut the double standard and control what exists NOW (not 20, 50, 100, 200 years ago). If what Bob Griese said is wrong, it should be wrong for all people of all colors, nationalities, religions, cultures etc. I don't care "why" the double-standard exists. Be consistent about it. Either it's wrong for all or it's not wrong at all.

In my opinion, I go with the live and let live approach. I don't mind these jokes if people aren't mean-spirited about them. But don't have selective vision when it comes to stereotyping. It's not OK just because you "know your audience." A stereotype is a stereotype plain and simple.

Dom Heffner
10-31-2009, 12:12 AM
[QUOTE=Brutus the Pimp;1988348] Of course I wouldn't do that because there's no reason to do it. But have I told jokes that involved stereotypes in front of a person of that race/culture/etc.?

If there's no reason for you to say that, then why did you use it as an example of something that would not offend you? On one hand you are saying that a statement like that would not offend you, on the other it wouldn't ever happen because there is no reason for it to.

Whether you would have a reason to do it is beside the point. Talk about question dodging.

You said that if something is not inherently offensive- like eating a taco- then the joke should not be considered offensive.

If this is true, then you should be able to go up to any Mexican in this country and say something like that without a problem.

Right.

Brutus
10-31-2009, 12:18 AM
[QUOTE=Brutus the Pimp;1988348] Of course I wouldn't do that because there's no reason to do it. But have I told jokes that involved stereotypes in front of a person of that race/culture/etc.?

If there's no reason for you to say that, then why did you use it as an example of something that would not offend you? On one hand you are saying that a statement like that would not offend you, on the other it wouldn't ever happen because there is no reason for it to.

Whether you would have a reason to do it is beside the point. Talk about question dodging.

You said that if something is not inherently offensive- like eating a taco- then the joke should not be considered offensive.

If this is true, then you should be able to go up to any Mexican in this country and say something like that without a problem.

Right.

I'm not dodging anything. You're comparing apples to oranges. Telling jokes in front of an audience is not the same as going up to a complete stranger and making a remark of any kind out of the blue (stereotypical or not). What you're using a basis for your argument is not even a realistic scenario. I can't answer the question directly because it's not even practical, nor is it anything like what Griese did.

What Griese did is more like telling a joke at a luncheon when giving a speech. That's a better example. And yes, I would do that without batting an eye.

Dom Heffner
10-31-2009, 12:21 AM
Well thank you for admitting the double standard. At least you admit there is one.

But don't you think we should make this fair for everyone? If we truly want to be color blind, should not the same standards apply to all people? Instead of telling me it's OK for black people or latinos to tell jokes about whites, but white people cannot do the same in reverse, then no one is truly looking for equality but rather a witch hunt. I don't care what happened in the past, if people are truly worried about making this a good world to live in, let's cut the double standard and control what exists NOW (not 20, 50, 100, 200 years ago). If what Bob Griese said is wrong, it should be wrong for all people of all colors, nationalities, religions, cultures etc. I don't care "why" the double-standard exists. Be consistent about it. Either it's wrong for all or it's not wrong at all.

In my opinion, I go with the live and let live approach. I don't mind these jokes if people aren't mean-spirited about them. But don't have selective vision when it comes to stereotyping. It's not OK just because you "know your audience." A stereotype is a stereotype plain and simple.

Brutus- I hope you don't think that I think you are a racist. I don't. When you write, that does not come across to me at all.

When you live in a country with such diversity of people, and one in particular holds the power, it's not funny when that group tells jokes about the minority. Humor works from the bottom up, not so much the top down.

Jokes about the boss are funny. The boss' jokes about the employees, not so much.

My kid wears a shirt that says I am funny looking. It doesn't work the other way, does it? One could argue that if he can do it, so can I, but the person or group holding power can't make jokes about those lower on the totem pole.

The double standard, then, isn't so much a double standard, but for me, it's more of the way humor works naturally.

If there were 50% whites and 50% blacks, I'll bet it would be a lot different.

George Anderson
10-31-2009, 12:22 AM
Well thank you for admitting the double standard. At least you admit there is one.

But don't you think we should make this fair for everyone? If we truly want to be color blind, should not the same standards apply to all people? Instead of telling me it's OK for black people or latinos to tell jokes about whites, but white people cannot do the same in reverse, then no one is truly looking for equality but rather a witch hunt. I don't care what happened in the past, if people are truly worried about making this a good world to live in, let's cut the double standard and control what exists NOW (not 20, 50, 100, 200 years ago). If what Bob Griese said is wrong, it should be wrong for all people of all colors, nationalities, religions, cultures etc. I don't care "why" the double-standard exists. Be consistent about it. Either it's wrong for all or it's not wrong at all.

In my opinion, I go with the live and let live approach. I don't mind these jokes if people aren't mean-spirited about them. But don't have selective vision when it comes to stereotyping. It's not OK just because you "know your audience." A stereotype is a stereotype plain and simple.

Good post!!

I agree, until the double standard is addressed and all people who stereotype are punished equally regardless of race, then the whole issue to me and many others is nothing but a political witchunt.

Dom Heffner
10-31-2009, 12:22 AM
[QUOTE=Dom Heffner;1988353]

I'm not dodging anything. You're comparing apples to oranges. Telling jokes in front of an audience is not the same as going up to a complete stranger and making a remark of any kind out of the blue (stereotypical or not). What you're using a basis for your argument is not even a realistic scenario. I can't answer the question directly because it's not even practical, nor is it anything like what Griese did.

What Griese did is more like telling a joke at a luncheon when giving a speech. That's a better example. And yes, I would do that without batting an eye.

I see. Telling jokes in front of an audience is different than going up to somebody, but telling jokes in front of an audiece is the same as commenting on a football game. Talk about apples and oranges.

With all due respect, I do not believe you would go into a room full of Mexicans that you did not know, or have any sort of relationship with and say anything of the sort.

Brutus
10-31-2009, 12:36 AM
Brutus- I hope you don't think that I think you are a racist. I don't. When you write, that does not come across to me at all.

When you live in a country with such diversity of people, and one in particular holds the power, it's not funny when that group tells jokes about the minority. Humor works from the bottom up, not so much the top down.

Jokes about the boss are funny. The boss' jokes about the employees, not so much.

My kid wears a shirt that says I am funny looking. It doesn't work the other way, does it? One could argue that if he can do it, so can I, but the person or group holding power can't make jokes about those lower on the totem pole.

The double standard, then, isn't so much a double standard, but for me, it's more of the way humor works naturally.

If there were 50% whites and 50% blacks, I'll bet it would be a lot different.

I am not saying there's not a small element of truth to humor working up, but if that were entirely true, comedians would cease to exist. Much of their humor comes from belittling their audience. At least, there are a lot of comedians (black and white) that tell race jokes and insult their audience a lot. Since the audiences are diverse, there must be some amount of thick skin or else the humor wouldn't work for the dynamic you describe.

Besides, this explanation is based on the assumption that all blacks are not in power but whites are. It's crazy talk, especially today. While racism is certainly not gone, we've got to the point where we have a Black president, female senators/President candidates, many minorities in congress and gay, Jew, Muslim, atheist and every other subset leader you can imagine. You have Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson telling me whether or not I'm a racist for being OK with comments. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they have more influence, or "power" to use your term, than I'll ever have. I'm offended by 90% of what those two individuals have to say, but that does not stop me from believing they have every right to spout off - no matter how idiotic it is.

I am not really interested in how humor works or why it is what it is. When it gets down to it, either people are interested in total equality (not equal results, mind you) or not. If so, we should apply the same principals for every individual no matter what the circumstances. Otherwise, we're left with the reality: we are all different and we should embrace that instead of degradation of people who are telling innocent, harmless jokes that serve reminders that we are, as I said earlier, different. As long as it's not taking away the rights of another and we mean no harm by it, we're all good. If we'd teach that lesson to society and let it simmer instead of getting all uptight and overworked at every little comment, eventually we'd find that life isn't all bad.

Brutus
10-31-2009, 12:46 AM
[QUOTE=Brutus the Pimp;1988355]

I see. Telling jokes in front of an audience is different than going up to somebody, but telling jokes in front of an audiece is the same as commenting on a football game. Talk about apples and oranges.

With all due respect, I do not believe you would go into a room full of Mexicans that you did not know, or have any sort of relationship with and say anything of the sort.

I once started speaking Spanish to a group of about 10 Mexicans to call them out for a bunch of things they were saying about the people in front of them (in Spanish, of course, thinking that no one could understand the rude comments they were making). Trust me, while I'm rather laid-back, shy and timid by nature, I'm not afraid to say something for fear of what people may think.

Actually, as far as my analogy, I said it was similar to telling a joke during a speech. Giving a speech and commenting on a football game are very different things, but in either, telling a joke is not the reason you're speaking in front of an audience - hence the reason I used that comparison. In your comparison, you have me just outright going up to a stranger and making a random comment. Much different than telling a joke (which was the premise of the comparison for me).

George Anderson
10-31-2009, 12:47 AM
To say this guy did it too or these guys didn't- I simply don't care.





I guess this is where Brutus and I have a problem. If you truly cared about eliminating stereotyping from our culture then you should be equally outraged when it comes out of anyones mouth regardless of skin color and not just when it is directed towards selected minority groups.

Tony_Danza
10-31-2009, 04:04 AM
Brutus the Pimp... youre a pretty legit guy!

LONG LIVE THE BAUMER!!!!!!!!

Sea Ray
10-31-2009, 09:22 AM
When you live in a country with such diversity of people, and one in particular holds the power, it's not funny when that group tells jokes about the minority. Humor works from the bottom up, not so much the top down.



I think you need to get past this thing about Whites having power. For example we have a black President and a black attorney general. Here in Cincinnati we have a black mayor, black city manager and a black school board superintendant...I could go on. If whites were so powerful and wanted to stick it to black folks, this wouldn't be. Whites don't vote as a block nor do they have "power".

traderumor
10-31-2009, 11:49 AM
I think you need to get past this thing about Whites having power. For example we have a black President and a black attorney general. Here in Cincinnati we have a black mayor, black city manager and a black school board superintendant...I could go on. If whites were so powerful and wanted to stick it to black folks, this wouldn't be. Whites don't vote as a block nor do they have "power".I'm pasty white, and even I have to call shenanigans on that one. Trying to prove the rule with exceptions.

Revering4Blue
10-31-2009, 12:28 PM
Juan Pablo eats Griese's words
Posted by John Taylor on October 29, 2009 6:28 PM ET
Shortly after Bob Griese made his "infamous" remark about Juan Pablo Montoya "out eating a taco" during a game this past weekend, the NASCAR driver dismissed the remark and brushed it off as no big deal.

(Unfortunately for Griese, ESPN didn't do the same as he was suspended for this week's game.)

In an attempt to further show that Griese's taco blast was an innocuous, albeit unfunny, attempt at humor, Montoya took to the new bastion of social chatter today.

According to Doug Demmons of the Birmingham News, Montoya sent out a tweet giving his followers a little insight into his life. And his dietary habits.

"Guess what I'm having for lunch.....TACOS!!!!!....and I'm serious about it!!!!"

And there you have it. Officially, officially the end of TacoGate...




http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/category/rumor-mill/2.php

AtomicDumpling
11-01-2009, 05:24 AM
I am late to this thread but will comment anyway.

I think it is ridiculous that Griese was suspended for his harmless comment. Yes, the comment was harmless. Saying that someone was eating a taco was not an insult in any way. The guy clearly meant no offense.

Some people need to lighten up and stop being so hateful and accusatory.

camisadelgolf
11-01-2009, 01:06 PM
The comment itself wasn't offensive, but the fact that he said it was offensive.

Brutus
11-01-2009, 04:29 PM
The comment itself wasn't offensive, but the fact that he said it was offensive.

How does that work, exactly?

The fact that he said a comment, that wasn't offensive, is offensive? I'm confused.

Sea Ray
11-01-2009, 04:48 PM
I'm pasty white, and even I have to call shenanigans on that one. Trying to prove the rule with exceptions.

What makes my examples exceptions? Is the President of the United States an exception? Last I checked there was only one President.

Griese wields no power over a professional driver like Montoya.

Brutus
11-01-2009, 05:07 PM
I'm pasty white, and even I have to call shenanigans on that one. Trying to prove the rule with exceptions.

According to 2008 estimates from the U.S. Census bureau, black persons comprise 12.8% of the population. I venture to say probably close to 9-10% of our government is probably black. You would call this exceptions, but yet, this would fall right in line with the ratio in society.

Currently, in congress, there are 49 black elected officials of 535 members (435 House Members and 100 Senators). That's 9.1%. There have only ever been five elected black governors in the history of the United States since reconstruction, if I recall correctly, but four of them are serving now. Four of 50 isn't very much but yet it's 8% - not exactly a far cry from the population totals.

Now, as far as mayors are concerned...

According to the 2000 U.S. Census, 600 cities in America have a population over 50,000 people. According to the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, as of 2008, 46 cities have black mayors. That's 7.7%. According to the same study, only 35 cities have a black population that comprises more than 30%.

Now, these numbers are not quite level with the overall population. But consider that according to the 2000 Census, only 17% of blacks over the age of 25 have completed a college degree. Compare that to 32% of whites over the age of 25.

One would expect that the pool of political officials, typically, is going to comprise college-educated adults. That's not to say there are not exceptions, but generally, you're not going to make it in government without a college background.

Whites make up approximately 64% of the population. That means about 21% of the U.S. population will be white, college educated. Only about 2% will be black, college educated. That's more than a 10-1 ratio.

One interesting fact, according to the census estimates in 2008, is that the median black income of college-educated adults is now more than 95% of the median white income of college-educated adults. In other words, we truly have closed the gap with regard to equality.

Redsfaithful
11-01-2009, 05:42 PM
Currently, in congress, there are 49 black elected officials of 535 members (435 House Members and 100 Senators). That's 9.1%.

How many are Senators?

Pointing out that overwhelmingly African American House districts put African Americans in office doesn't really tell us much.

Brutus
11-01-2009, 05:55 PM
How many are Senators?

Pointing out that overwhelmingly African American House districts put African Americans in office doesn't really tell us much.

What more do people want? Do they want 20% of elected officials to be black when there's only 12% population? I mean, why shouldn't these numbers be a microcosm of the actual population? If there are 12 of every 100 persons that are black, then I think having 9 of every 100 congressmen is a reasonable demographic.

Some are suggesting the President, some congressmen and mayors that were pointed out were "exceptions" to the "rule." But this "rule" is consistent now with actual population. Isn't that the way it should be? That blacks are getting an equal opportunity?

Sea Ray
11-01-2009, 06:49 PM
If "white boys" were so powerful, Barack Obama never would have been elected to the most powerful job in the country. He never would have been able to raise enough money to win; he never would have won the Democratic nomination and he never would have been elected President. Folks who claim whites "hold the power" in 2009 are on faulty ground and don't know what they're talking about.

traderumor
11-01-2009, 07:03 PM
According to 2008 estimates from the U.S. Census bureau, black persons comprise 12.8% of the population. I venture to say probably close to 9-10% of our government is probably black. You would call this exceptions, but yet, this would fall right in line with the ratio in society.

Currently, in congress, there are 49 black elected officials of 535 members (435 House Members and 100 Senators). That's 9.1%. There have only ever been five elected black governors in the history of the United States since reconstruction, if I recall correctly, but four of them are serving now. Four of 50 isn't very much but yet it's 8% - not exactly a far cry from the population totals.

Now, as far as mayors are concerned...

According to the 2000 U.S. Census, 600 cities in America have a population over 50,000 people. According to the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, as of 2008, 46 cities have black mayors. That's 7.7%. According to the same study, only 35 cities have a black population that comprises more than 30%.

Now, these numbers are not quite level with the overall population. But consider that according to the 2000 Census, only 17% of blacks over the age of 25 have completed a college degree. Compare that to 32% of whites over the age of 25.

One would expect that the pool of political officials, typically, is going to comprise college-educated adults. That's not to say there are not exceptions, but generally, you're not going to make it in government without a college background.

Whites make up approximately 64% of the population. That means about 21% of the U.S. population will be white, college educated. Only about 2% will be black, college educated. That's more than a 10-1 ratio.

One interesting fact, according to the census estimates in 2008, is that the median black income of college-educated adults is now more than 95% of the median white income of college-educated adults. In other words, we truly have closed the gap with regard to equality.You completely missed the point. Pointing out that the President and some other local officials are African American is an exception to the rule whereby Sea Ray claimed "whites are not powerful."

I don't even think it is arguable that white males still dominate our culture economically, politically, socially, in the workplace, in driving policy. All your numbers do is prove my point, since the numbers are consistent for African Americans, or even less than the general population.

And that doesn't even get into the issue of how much "power" even resides in the positions mentioned. And hear me on this, that isn't to throw out my chest because I are a white male, but just stating a simple cultural fact.

traderumor
11-01-2009, 07:05 PM
If "white boys" were so powerful, Barack Obama never would have been elected to the most powerful job in the country. He never would have been able to raise enough money to win; he never would have won the Democratic nomination and he never would have been elected President. Folks who claim whites "hold the power" in 2009 are on faulty ground and don't know what they're talking about.You are begging the question, Archie Bunker style. Was that true when a Catholic was elected President?

Plus, I find the derisive use of the term "white boys" offensive. Good thing you aren't broadcasting for ESPN, because you would owe me an apology.

traderumor
11-01-2009, 07:07 PM
What more do people want? Do they want 20% of elected officials to be black when there's only 12% population? I mean, why shouldn't these numbers be a microcosm of the actual population? If there are 12 of every 100 persons that are black, then I think having 9 of every 100 congressmen is a reasonable demographic.

Some are suggesting the President, some congressmen and mayors that were pointed out were "exceptions" to the "rule." But this "rule" is consistent now with actual population. Isn't that the way it should be? That blacks are getting an equal opportunity?Without a doubt, you missed my point. See above.

Sea Ray
11-01-2009, 07:14 PM
You are begging the question, Archie Bunker style. Was that true when a Catholic was elected President?




I'm not sure what you're asking here but I don't think Catholics are a depressed minority lacking power either.

traderumor
11-02-2009, 07:28 AM
I'm not sure what you're asking here but I don't think Catholics are a depressed minority lacking power either.The point was that the same logic that said "if group A is in power, then B would never have gotten elected to the Presidency" applies to the impossibility at the time that a Catholic could hold the highest office in the land. Group A was in power, and B was elected.

Further, it is mighty bigoted to say "black man is elected, no way 'whitey' is still in power." Not to mention the strawman that "white boys," as you derisively used the term, is representative of white America. Perhaps you can say "white racist members" are not in power, but that is about all. Obviously, by sheer numbers, white folks had to be on board with Obama as the best choice for President, or he never gets elected. That is not even arguable.

Finally, there is the flawed logic that the race of the President, certain mayors and other political leaders is representative of the power structure of a culture, when as Brutus pointed out, is merely in line with the percentage of the populaton. That is really the only "power" I am talking about--sheer numbers.

Sea Ray
11-02-2009, 10:22 AM
The point was that the same logic that said "if group A is in power, then B would never have gotten elected to the Presidency" applies to the impossibility at the time that a Catholic could hold the highest office in the land. Group A was in power, and B was elected.

Further, it is mighty bigoted to say "black man is elected, no way 'whitey' is still in power." Not to mention the strawman that "white boys," as you derisively used the term, is representative of white America. Perhaps you can say "white racist members" are not in power, but that is about all. Obviously, by sheer numbers, white folks had to be on board with Obama as the best choice for President, or he never gets elected. That is not even arguable.

Finally, there is the flawed logic that the race of the President, certain mayors and other political leaders is representative of the power structure of a culture, when as Brutus pointed out, is merely in line with the percentage of the populaton. That is really the only "power" I am talking about--sheer numbers.


That's it? After all that...where's your evidence that whites hold power over blacks? Isn't that what this is all about? Until I hear differently, I'll consider that there is nothing to back that up...

traderumor
11-02-2009, 10:45 AM
That's it? After all that...where's your evidence that whites hold power over blacks? Isn't that what this is all about? Until I hear differently, I'll consider that there is nothing to back that up...I'm not sure where the misunderstanding is, but I really have no idea where you have concluded that anything I said was about "whites hold power over blacks." Since this is so off topic, I am not going any further down this rabbit trail, but whatever gave you that impression, I completely deny having any intent of advancing that thought. The only sense I had in anything related to my comments was majority vs. minority, by sheer numbers, which I have now said several times. I am not going to let you bait and switch this into painting me as making racist "white power" comments when there was NEVER any intent of that in any of my statements. I am actually mortified at what you are trying to twist my comments into and am about ready to delete each and every comment.

Sea Ray
11-02-2009, 11:49 AM
I'm not sure where the misunderstanding is, but I really have no idea where you have concluded that anything I said was about "whites hold power over blacks."


OK, well that explains why you've come across as so clueless. You didn't read what the subject was at hand when you decided to jump in and accuse me of shananigans. I was responding to a comment from another poster who said whites hold the power and you disagreed with my response. To refresh your memory, here is the comment I was responding to:


When you live in a country with such diversity of people, and one in particular holds the power, it's not funny when that group tells jokes about the minority. Humor works from the bottom up, not so much the top down.


If you didn't know this was all about the subject of whites holding power then you either didn't read very well or you tried to change the subject.

So if you didn't say anything about whites having power over other races then why did you jump in when that was the subject matter at hand?

traderumor
11-02-2009, 11:57 AM
OK, well that explains why you've come across as so clueless. You didn't read what the subject was at hand when you decided to jump in and accuse me of shananigans. I was responding to a comment from another poster who said whites hold the power and you disagreed with my response. To refresh your memory, here is the comment I was responding to:




If you didn't know this was all about the subject of whites holding power then you either didn't read very well or you tried to change the subject.

So if you didn't say anything about whites having power over other races then why did you jump in when that was the subject matter at hand?Sea Ray, with all due respect, I made it very clear that I was talking about minority vs. majority. I know exactly what you were responding to. You are making it out to be an issue of superiority, which was the furthest thing from my mind. But, I know what the numbers are and I have common sense. I'll leave it at that because it is clear that you have an agenda on the issue and I'm not your fall guy.

Chip R
11-02-2009, 12:16 PM
You guys are getting off the original subject and into an area which is not allowed. Either get back on topic or I'll close this thread.