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Chip R
11-10-2009, 10:04 PM
The usual suspects are going to be in the mix: Favre, Rothlisberger, Manning (Peyton), Brady and now Brees. But Benson should definitely be in the mix. They improved last year after a bad start when he started getting regular playing time and now with Carson back, he's pounding the ball down everyone's throat. Having a healthy Palmer is a good thing but having a running back that runs as well as Benson is extremely important. He probably won't win because Cincinnati is a smaller market and doesn't get the national attention the others do but I think he'd be an excellent choice.

GIDP
11-10-2009, 10:13 PM
I would find it impossible that a Bengal will ever win the MVP based on how voting is ran these days.

Betterread
11-10-2009, 10:44 PM
Ever see Chris Johnson and Adrian Peterson rush the football? Watch them play. Redefine your definition of a valuable running back.

cincrazy
11-10-2009, 11:56 PM
Ever see Chris Johnson and Adrian Peterson rush the football? Watch them play. Redefine your definition of a valuable running back.

Peterson and Johnson are both great running backs, no question. But I think Benson is more important to his team. The Bengals without Cedric Benson are HORRIBLE at running the ball. See last year, Chris Perry. The Vikings have Chester Taylor backing up Peterson. And even though Peterson is the best back in the league, and I don't consider it to be close, if he went down tomorrow, they'd be fine. Same with Johnson in Tennessee. While Lendale White isn't Chester Taylor, he's a very good running back who takes some heat off of Johnson, and can step in if Johnson gets hurt.

Benson doesn't have ANYONE to take carries from him and to give him a rest, and if he went down tomorrow, you could forget about the Bengals running game. It'd be one of the worst in the league instantly IMO.

DTCromer
11-11-2009, 08:52 AM
Benson's in the mix, but he's not even close. In fact, I'd almost say Palmer is the team MVP this year with his improved play.

With all that said, Peyton Manning, IMO, is the runaway choice for MVP right now.

Redsfan320
11-11-2009, 09:08 AM
While I'm not sure about the whole league, Benson is definitely the team MVP; the only other guy I would've considered is Odom but he's now injured.

320

reds1869
11-11-2009, 09:14 AM
While I'm not sure about the whole league, Benson is definitely the team MVP; the only other guy I would've considered is Odom but he's now injured.

320

I'm not saying this player should even be in consideration for MVP, because he shouldn't. But a guy who has really made a difference for this team is Clark Harris. The special teams are once again confident in their long snapper and I don't cringe every time we line up for a kick. Those points make a big difference.

I really like Ced, but I have to say that Carson Palmer is the team MVP right now. He has been absolutely clutch. And while Benson is hard to replace, we would be doomed if O'Sullivan or Jordan Palmer were playing QB.

joshnky
11-11-2009, 09:26 AM
I really like Ced, but I have to say that Carson Palmer is the team MVP right now. He has been absolutely clutch. And while Benson is hard to replace, we would be doomed if O'Sullivan or Jordan Palmer were playing QB.

Anyone remember last year? That is what this team would look like without Carson. Benson deserves praise as well but the primary difference between last year's debacle and this years success is that Palmer is back and healthy.

reds1869
11-11-2009, 09:43 AM
Anyone remember last year? That is what this team would look like without Carson. Benson deserves praise as well but the primary difference between last year's debacle and this years success is that Palmer is back and healthy.

Exactly. HB may be the most important position in fantasy football, but QB is the most important position in NFL football.

GIDP
11-11-2009, 10:14 AM
Palmer isnt even that good this year.

reds1869
11-11-2009, 10:31 AM
Palmer isnt even that good this year.

And how did you arrive at this conclusion? Was it the passer rating that ties him with Eli Manning, or the 3 fourth quarter comeback wins (4 if not for a fluke against Denver)? Or perhaps his improved mobility, which led directly to key scores over Cleveland and Chicago? Then again, maybe it was the fact that the Bengals offense leads the NFL in Red Zone TD efficiency. I've heard others say he is not that great this year, but I'm not buying. This is the best he has ever played and he brings a swagger to the huddle that has never been there. His team mates always believe they can win with him at the helm, and they usually do.

The Operator
11-11-2009, 10:32 AM
Palmer isnt even that good this year.

Please tell me that post was a joke. Outside of Manning, Brady and possibly Brees, there's no one I would rather have running The Bengals offense. Absolutely no one.

GIDP
11-11-2009, 10:41 AM
And how did you arrive at this conclusion? Was it the passer rating that ties him with Eli Manning, or the 3 fourth quarter comeback wins (4 if not for a fluke against Denver)? Or perhaps his improved mobility, which led directly to key scores over Cleveland and Chicago? Then again, maybe it was the fact that the Bengals offense leads the NFL in Red Zone TD efficiency. I've heard others say he is not that great this year, but I'm not buying. This is the best he has ever played and he brings a swagger to the huddle that has never been there. His team mates always believe they can win with him at the helm, and they usually do.

Being tied with Eli Manning is a good thing?

Palmer is middle of the road in every category other than TDs.

GIDP
11-11-2009, 10:42 AM
Please tell me that post was a joke. Outside of Manning, Brady and possibly Brees, there's no one I would rather have running The Bengals offense. Absolutely no one.

Just because Palmer has the ability to be as good as those guys doesnt mean hes playing at that level. He's been playing at a average level all year and thats including a game against the bears that likely wont happen again the rest of the year.

reds1869
11-11-2009, 10:51 AM
Being tied with Eli Manning is a good thing?

Palmer is middle of the road in every category other than TDs.

Palmer is near the top of the pile in the category that Big Ben and Eli Manning (two QBs I would gladly take, regardless of stats yet are repeatedly called over rated) also excel in: wins. This isn't baseball where stats really do tell the tale for the most part. Intangibles are much more important at QB than any other position in sports. In my opinion he has "it," and my opinion is backed up by the standings and the fact that he has so consistently led his offense to key scores in the 4th quarter this season.

The Operator
11-11-2009, 10:52 AM
Palmer's numbers are lower than you would expect also in part because the Bengals are running the ball A LOT. I'll take Palmer throwing for 200-250 yards and a win over the old days of Palmer throwing for 300-350 and losing.

GIDP
11-11-2009, 10:58 AM
Yea and if he was playing better maybe we would be 8-0 ever think of that?

I have no problem saying Palmer isnt playing that great right now and I'm honestly surprised a couple of you are trying to say he is. Then again I dont know how I win a battle with someone that uses "wins" as proof that a QB is great.

Can we use wins for any other positions?

The Operator
11-11-2009, 11:16 AM
Well, I guess unless the team is undefeated, the QB sucks.

They'd be 7-1 if it weren't for the freak ending to the Denver game and the game against The Texans was a letdown, perhaps because they dealt with Mike Zimmer's wife dying that week. Ever think of that?

The guy was injured last year. His line is just recently gelling. They're running the ball more. He's still got a 90 passer rating and is on pace for around 3700 yards in the air. I'm gonna give him some slack.

SunDeck
11-11-2009, 11:22 AM
I think it all comes down to the play of the offensive line. They surge, they protect; two things that they did not do last year. Benson and Palmer are extremely important players, obviously, but you cannot overlook the improvement and the better play of the line in creating the opportunity for both players to to excel.

GIDP
11-11-2009, 11:40 AM
Well, I guess unless the team is undefeated, the QB sucks.

They'd be 7-1 if it weren't for the freak ending to the Denver game and the game against The Texans was a letdown, perhaps because they dealt with Mike Zimmer's wife dying that week. Ever think of that?

The guy was injured last year. His line is just recently gelling. They're running the ball more. He's still got a 90 passer rating and is on pace for around 3700 yards in the air. I'm gonna give him some slack.

Wins = Great QB

Stats mean nothing

Glad we cleared that up for me.

reds1869
11-11-2009, 11:42 AM
Wins = Great QB

Stats mean nothing

Glad we cleared that up for me.

Neither of us is saying that stats mean nothing. But wins do mean more.

GIDP
11-11-2009, 11:45 AM
Neither of us is saying that.

I dont know how much clearer you could make it when you bring up something like this


Palmer is near the top of the pile in the category that Big Ben and Eli Manning (two QBs I would gladly take, regardless of stats yet are repeatedly called over rated) also excel in: wins.

Seems to be stating that Wins make the QB no matter the stats.

Guess what Carson is closer to being Kyle Orton this year stat wise than any of the top QBs you want to list. Just because I say he isnt playing great doesnt mean he sucks. If he was playing better we would be really really good. Hes not but luckily for us hes got the ability to be the top guys.

GIDP
11-11-2009, 11:45 AM
Wins meaning more is how Tim Wakefield gets an all star selection.

reds1869
11-11-2009, 11:55 AM
Wins meaning more is how Tim Wakefield gets an all star selection.


This is not baseball. Baseball is not at all relevant to the discussion. I think my posts above make it pretty clear that--for QB, in the sport of football, which we are currently discussing--I value wins over stats. That doesn't mean I don't value stats, I simply view them as a tool. Palmer has slightly above average stats, and a big time penchant for the clutch this year. In the end QBs are judged on wins and losses, not stats. If he had terrible stats and the Bengals were still winning, the logical conclusion would be that they were winning in spite of him. If he had stellar stats and they were losing, they would be doing so because of weaknesses elsewhere. As it is, he is ranked in the top half of the league in virtually every category and is proving able to get it done at crunch time. Those factors together say he is a very good QB at the moment.

It isn't just a few of us on this thread praising Palmer. Journalists, analysts and talk show hosts around the country are going absolutely batty over him, and they have no built in bias for the Bengals. This year he has been a winner pure and simple.

GIDP
11-11-2009, 12:10 PM
Are you going to sit there and tell me that Kerry Collins was a great QB last year?

reds1869
11-11-2009, 12:12 PM
Are you going to sit there and tell me that Kerry Collins was a great QB last year?

No, I'm not. I thought I made my criteria clear in the post above. The Titans clearly won in spite of him. But hey, don't let what I actually said get in the way of "winning" you argument.

GIDP
11-11-2009, 12:14 PM
No, I'm not. I thought I made my criteria clear in the post above. The Titans clearly won in spite of him. But hey, don't let what I actually said get in the way of "winning" you argument.

So wins dont matter in one case but they do in other cases? huh... I'm being told wins = how good a QB is more than stats but when I bring up wins of a QB those wins dont count....

Maybe you should rethink your position on stats and wins.

GIDP
11-11-2009, 12:16 PM
Why are the Bengals 6-2 the top 5 d or the QB who is 13th in QB rating. Hmmm its the QB because he has 6 wins in a team sport.

reds1869
11-11-2009, 12:20 PM
So wins dont matter in one case but they do in other cases? huh... I'm being told wins = how good a QB is more than stats but when I bring up wins of a QB those wins dont count....

Maybe you should rethink your position on stats and wins.

Since you ignored what I said the first time, I'll paste it and highlight the parts you obviously missed. I'm then going to step away because all you are doing is throwing sophomoric jabs at me and making actual discussion impossible.

"This is not baseball. Baseball is not at all relevant to the discussion. I think my posts above make it pretty clear that--for QB, in the sport of football, which we are currently discussing--I value wins over stats. That doesn't mean I don't value stats, I simply view them as a tool. Palmer has slightly above average stats, and a big time penchant for the clutch this year. In the end QBs are judged on wins and losses, not stats. If he had terrible stats and the Bengals were still winning, the logical conclusion would be that they were winning in spite of him. If he had stellar stats and they were losing, they would be doing so because of weaknesses elsewhere. As it is, he is ranked in the top half of the league in virtually every category and is proving able to get it done at crunch time. Those factors together say he is a very good QB at the moment."

GIDP
11-11-2009, 12:23 PM
Yes I understand what you are saying, but you really dont seem to understand. You are telling me wins matter but then they dont matter if the stats tell you something else. Which is it? Stats or Wins? or is it just open to your interpretation and biases? Being middle of the pack isnt "very good"

I wish when I got a C on a paper my parents would have told me I did very good.

dougdirt
11-11-2009, 01:48 PM
The Bengals are 6-2 because just about at every position they are good. QB, RB, WR, OL, DL, LB, DB and ST. How about that?

reds1869
11-11-2009, 01:51 PM
The Bengals are 6-2 because just about at every position they are good. QB, RB, WR, OL, DL, LB, DB and ST. How about that?

Now that I can absolutely agree with. :thumbup:

cincrazy
11-11-2009, 01:59 PM
Palmer isnt even that good this year.

Winning several games in the last seconds isn't good?

The Operator
11-11-2009, 02:22 PM
Wins = Great QB

Stats mean nothing

Glad we cleared that up for me.

You're putting words in my mouth now. I never said that.

I pointed out that despite starting the season with a patchwork line that is just recently starting to come together; AND sitting out most of last year, Carson is still putting up a solid season in multiple statistical categories, and I didn't really mention wins at all as one of them.

I think you disqualified yourself from this debate when you mentioned Palmer in the same breath as Kyle Orton. If you think they're even remotely similar, you don't need to talk football with anyone. Ever.

I don't know what it is you've got against Carson, because none of the arguments you are making are based in any type of fact. In fact, the only real argument you are making is that "he's not good". You aren't backing it up at all. Are you a Steeler fan or something?

GIDP
11-11-2009, 02:24 PM
Winning several games in the last seconds isn't good?

:rolleyes:

The Operator
11-11-2009, 02:26 PM
I think my troll meter just pegged.

bucksfan2
11-11-2009, 02:31 PM
If I were giving Palmer a grade so far this season it would be a B. I think just recently has he finally rounded into form, so I do agree somewhat with GIDP in that Palmer hasn't had a good year so far up to his standards.

Look he wasn't ready for the Denver game and it showed. If Palmer plays OK the Bengals win that game. He gave away 14 points in the Packers game. He gave away another pick 6 against the Ravens. It looks like he finally started to click on all cylinders over the past few weeks. I think Palmer is getting better with each progressive start, and he should due to the time he missed last year as well as in the preseason.

GIDP
11-11-2009, 02:42 PM
If I were giving Palmer a grade so far this season it would be a B. I think just recently has he finally rounded into form, so I do agree somewhat with GIDP in that Palmer hasn't had a good year so far up to his standards.

Look he wasn't ready for the Denver game and it showed. If Palmer plays OK the Bengals win that game. He gave away 14 points in the Packers game. He gave away another pick 6 against the Ravens. It looks like he finally started to click on all cylinders over the past few weeks. I think Palmer is getting better with each progressive start, and he should due to the time he missed last year as well as in the preseason.

Exactly.

Palmer isn't sucking but to say hes being great is crazy. He was anything but good against Denver, and until the Bears game and the Ravens game he was very average. Lucky for us he has the ability to be very good but at the moment he hasn't exactly shown it. Remember guys this all came off MVP debate.

dougdirt
11-11-2009, 10:15 PM
CP over his last 4 starts - 105.3 QB Rating. Let the season play out.

cincrazy
11-11-2009, 10:40 PM
Exactly.

Palmer isn't sucking but to say hes being great is crazy. He was anything but good against Denver, and until the Bears game and the Ravens game he was very average. Lucky for us he has the ability to be very good but at the moment he hasn't exactly shown it. Remember guys this all came off MVP debate.

I wasn't trying to bash you in my one post. I would agree with you that Carson, overall, hasn't been great this season.

However, with that being said, if Palmer wasn't at QB, we would likely be 2-6, if not worse. Even with his struggles at times, he's gotten the job done.

T.J. being subtracted from the offense was huge, the line took time to gel, several factors come into play. But I think he's going to have a HUGE statistical second half, and hopefully the wins continue to rack up.

bucksfan2
11-12-2009, 08:44 AM
CP over his last 4 starts - 105.3 QB Rating. Let the season play out.

Right now Carson Palmer is probably playing the best football of his career. His numbers are slightly down because of the emphasis on the running game. The game he played against the Bears may have been the best of his career. He has looked more mobile in the pocket. He is moving better and isn't a statue.

I guess my point is that in the beginning of the season Carson wasn't up to his form. He wasn't playing at the high level we are all used to. They scored 7 points against the Broncos. He kept the Pack in the game throwing a pick 6 and an int returned inside the 10. The Ravens weren't able to muster anything on offense in their first meeting but Palmer gave up a pick 6 to Reed which put them in the lead late in the game.

Palmer has been nails late in the football game, which is a huge plus for this football team. He should have had the game winning drive against the Broncos as well. The Bengals were moving the ball trying to come back against the Texans as well, but their TE's couldn't hold onto the ball. I just think that Palmer's play over the first 3 or so weeks of the season was a little inconsistent. In reality that is to be expected due to his long layoff and his 1 game preseason.

Looking back over the first 8 weeks of the season, Benson is my Bengals MVP. Going forward, if the Bengals are going to make a run into the Playoffs, Palmer will have to be the team's MVP.

Mario-Rijo
11-12-2009, 04:55 PM
Palmer isnt even that good this year.

You say that like you think he should be playing better than he has. He didn't play much of last season, what about 16 quarters. Missed the entire preseason with an ankle injury, came into the season playing with that ankle injury for 2-3 weeks and no time with his WR's to establish timing. Had an offensive line that needed to gel, has 4 players on offense in the top 20 in dropped passes and now the last several games has had to play with only one good hand. Give those circumstances to Peyton, to Brady, to Brees and see if they can play any better than he has to this point 6-2 4-0 inside his own division, 4 late game winning drives and solid statistical numbers despite the fact we are running the ball more and playing a more conservative overall offensive game as a team strategy. So to say he hasn't been good is one way to put it I guess but I'd think a Bengal fan might argue that he is playing brilliantly given the issues he's had to work thru/with.

Yachtzee
11-12-2009, 05:47 PM
Palmer's early season stats weren't great, but I'd put that on being rusty and also having to deal with a lot of drops by guys like Lavernues Coles and Dan Coates. However, the key to those early season wins were that Palmer was able to put the team on his back with the game on the line, march down the field, and score the winning points. There are few QBs who can do that consistently. The fact that Palmer has done it numerous times already this season says a lot about his character as a team leader.

I'd agree with the sentiment that the play on the Offensive Line has a lot to do with things too. This is an OL I didn't have a lot of expectations for, being that they had to make some changes in the offseason. Benson and Palmer have both benefited from improved play on the line.

And then of course there is the defense. Other than the Cleveland and Houston games, the Defense has been great. It's so refreshing to watch a Bengals game and not be in constant worry that the other team has a chance no matter how many points Palmer and Co. score. Part of the reason Palmer and the Offense were able to score the winning points even with some lackluster play early in the season is because the D kept them in the game. They have two great corners who can cover top receivers, a linebacking corps featuring two young studs and seasoned (and intelligent) vet, and a DL that's finally not getting pushed around by the other team. Add to that the run-stopping power of Crocker and Williams at safety and this is a good D. Not only that but it's got some depth too! Losing Odom hurt, but they're still doing great without him.

I'd say right now I'd probably give the MVP to the defense as a unit.

bucksfan2
11-13-2009, 09:13 AM
I'd say right now I'd probably give the MVP to the defense as a unit.

:thumbup:

Roy Tucker
11-13-2009, 09:29 AM
I think that if the Bengals were without either one of Palmer or Benson they'd be in a world of hurt on offense.

Like Yachtzee said, the defense has been MVP and has carried the team when the offense sputtered. And the OL has been the unsung heroes.

GIDP
11-13-2009, 11:49 AM
I dont know how my original quote could be so misunderstood especially when you look at the stats. Its like I said hes a bum or something to you guys :laugh:.

The Operator
11-13-2009, 01:38 PM
I dont know how my original quote could be so misunderstood especially when you look at the stats. Its like I said hes a bum or something to you guys :laugh:.


Palmer isnt even that good this year.

I don't think anyone misunderstood anything. I think you're backing off after the fact.

GIDP
11-13-2009, 02:33 PM
I don't think anyone misunderstood anything. I think you're backing off after the fact.

He hasnt been :laugh:

Quit being blinded by being a fan of him and actually see what im talking about. Overall hes been average this year. To suggest hes the MVP is silly.

The Operator
11-13-2009, 02:48 PM
He hasnt been :laugh:

Quit being blinded by being a fan of him and actually see what im talking about. Overall hes been average this year. To suggest hes the MVP is silly.

At no point did I ever say Carson Palmer should be MVP of anything. I'm saying that a guy with a passer rating of 90 and pace to throw for 3700 yards isn't "not good".

Perhaps you should tend to your own blindness before you criticize the eyesight of others. But then again, I don't wanna mess with the Cincinnati way of doing things, seeing as the best players on either pro sports teams are constantly the ones who get dragged through the mud if they're even a fraction below perfect.

GIDP
11-13-2009, 03:25 PM
Saying someone hasnt been THAT good and saying they are not good are 2 different things.

Someone isn't looking before they leap.

Mario-Rijo
11-13-2009, 03:56 PM
I dont know how my original quote could be so misunderstood especially when you look at the stats. Its like I said hes a bum or something to you guys :laugh:.


Palmer isnt even that good this year.

"Isn't even that good" to me means below average and I'd say given the circumstances that's debatable at worst. It's like me saying the quality of so and so's posts has been poor for the past couple months, even though we know he's dealing with a the loss of his job, a death in the family and the constant threat of his home and car being taken from him from bill collectors calling him all the time. But the fact he is posting at all about baseball under those circumstances suggest he is posting pretty well.

I understand your point but I think your being to hard on the guy and not giving his circumstances enough weight. Sure he isn't being his typical self but under those circumstances why would you expect him to be?

GIDP
11-13-2009, 05:55 PM
So saying someone "isn't that good this year" when people are saying hes the team MVP is like me saying Palmer has been poor. Does context mean anything to you people?

The context was people saying Palmer is the team MVP. Me saying he "isnt even that good this year" is me saying he isnt playing great. He's went from pretty bad, to mediocre to, pretty good.

Please understand the context of what I was saying. Its like people lumping Jay Bruce in with Willy Taveras and someone saying Jay Bruce hasnt been that bad. I doubt many of you would have read that and said "Oh man GIDP just said Jay Bruce was the best player on the team.

cincrazy
11-13-2009, 08:37 PM
I don't think GIDP was dragging Carson through the mud or saying he's sucked. Carson is having a great year by any standards, but he hasn't been as consistent as 2005 Carson was. I don't think there's anything wrong with stating that.

With that being said, I expect the 2nd half of the season to be a different story.

Mario-Rijo
11-14-2009, 01:47 AM
So saying someone "isn't that good this year" when people are saying hes the team MVP is like me saying Palmer has been poor. Does context mean anything to you people?

The context was people saying Palmer is the team MVP. Me saying he "isnt even that good this year" is me saying he isnt playing great. He's went from pretty bad, to mediocre to, pretty good.

Please understand the context of what I was saying. Its like people lumping Jay Bruce in with Willy Taveras and someone saying Jay Bruce hasnt been that bad. I doubt many of you would have read that and said "Oh man GIDP just said Jay Bruce was the best player on the team.

I understand the context and frankly MVP's aren't always about the numbers. Benson has kept us in games along with the defense. But in crunch time you need Carson to win the game for ya and he has on several occassions, that shouldn't be overlooked. I feel comfortable suggesting that there is a better chance we'd be winning without Benson than without Palmer. That makes him the most valuable player on the team in my estimation. Now last years MVP was Benson no question, without him who knows if we win at all.

WebScorpion
11-15-2009, 07:21 PM
The whole Bengals Defense should win the MVP. Zimmer should definitely get the MVC! :thumbup:

The Operator
11-15-2009, 10:39 PM
I just hope they can keep Zimmer after this season.

He's bound to have teams looking at him as a possible head coach.