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MWM
11-21-2009, 12:09 PM
OK, I hate the Buckeye uni's today. Oogly.

I know a lot has been said about the Buckeye offense's predictability so I don't want to belabor the point too much. But it's not just predictability, they run the EXACT SAME PLAY at least half the time on first down. It's the straight dive to the right between the center and guard. It's the the same side, same blocking, same everything. And it rarely gets more than a yard or two as everyone knows it's coming. I understand the desire to run on first down, but at least change up the running play a little. Try running to the left every once in a while. Jeez.

OSUredsFAN
11-21-2009, 12:40 PM
I love the uniforms!
GO BUCKS

Redlegs212
11-21-2009, 12:42 PM
LETS GO BLUE

Slyder
11-21-2009, 12:55 PM
Prediction:

If Michigan gets destroyed= RR will be canned
If Michigan plays it close= 70/30 RR will be canned
If Michigan wins= RR gets a 10 yr extension... not really but he'll save his job... for now. Hopefully he continues to suffer at Michigan.

And now for something completely different...

Skip Holtz for WVU head coach in 2010! Stu is stewed!

Redlegs23
11-21-2009, 01:01 PM
I'm a UC fan, and I really don't have a preference on who wins this game, but I guess if I had to pick I would take OSU. I've been a little surprised at Michigan being able to move the ball as well as they are right now. Aside from the fumble in the end zone Michigan has controlled most of the game. The Buckeyes are 100 times better playing with a lead, so if they can continue to hold Michigan to field goals or less the Bucks will win with no problem.

Reds4Life
11-21-2009, 01:08 PM
I'm not an OSU fan either, but I like the uniforms. The helmets suck though, kind of plain.

DTCromer
11-21-2009, 01:24 PM
What a beautiful game. Both teams have WR's playing QB.

Redlegs23
11-21-2009, 01:56 PM
The Bucks uni's don't do it for me, the current uni's are way better. Especially the helmets.

BuckeyeRed27
11-21-2009, 03:46 PM
Liked the unis more than I thought I would. Loved winning 6 in a row just about as much as I thought I would.

Another game where we didn't have to pass to win. Oregon might make us do that, but honestly I think we shut down that O too. Run the ball, control the clock, force TOs and win by 10. It's not pretty but I'll take it.

Captain Hook
11-21-2009, 03:59 PM
-6 straight against UM

-5 straight Big 10 titles

-5 straight 10 win seasons

-most BCS bowl game ever

-1 for 3 in National Championship games(i guess this is viewed as the Bucks lone failure but I choose to list it as an accomplishment)

Everyone that says they're predictable couldn't be more right.Congrats Bucks on another Big 10 championship and win against UM.

traderumor
11-21-2009, 04:22 PM
I miss good Michigan teams, when beating them isn't like the bully beating the snot nosed wimp on the playground. However, I know that Wolverines felt the same way until Tressel came along. Still, beating them never gets old. Rodriguez at least won another year, though, since I agree with the earlier post that a respectable game would probably means he keeps his job.

Predictable or not, I am sure they approached 200 yards on the ground again. Its not flashy, but its effective.

Unassisted
11-21-2009, 06:30 PM
Rodriguez at least won another year, though, since I agree with the earlier post that a respectable game would probably means he keeps his job.
The score was respectable, but his team sure did commit a lot of turnovers. I was pondering near the end of the game whether that would outweigh the closeness of the score in the minds of the decisionmakers.

Buckeye33
11-21-2009, 06:52 PM
Predictable or not, I am sure they approached 200 yards on the ground again. Its not flashy, but its effective.

OSU ended up with 251 yards rushing, the 5th straight game they've run for 200+. They are 5-0 in those games.

If they play Oregon in the Rose Bowl, they could run for 250+ again but it will come down to the D holding them to 21 points or less.

If they play Arizona I think OSU's D will dominate.

Redlegs23
11-21-2009, 07:15 PM
Oregon will obviously be the favorite against Oregon State, especially with the game at Oregon, but I think Oregon State will give them a run for their money. Should be a good one to watch. I have a hunch that it might be OSU versus OSU in the Rose Bowl.

MWM
11-21-2009, 07:15 PM
I think Michigan's decision on Rodriguez will all depend on who they think they can get to replace him. If there was ever a question on Weis, that was answered today with the loss to Uconn (even the most ardant Weis fans I know from ND are ready to turn the page). That means they could be competing with ND for candidates. If the rumors of Kelly not being a candidate at ND are true, then if they think they can get him, that might force their hand with Rodriguez. But rumor has it that they don't like Kelly at Michigan. There's always the chance they'd go after Les Miles again, but I doubt that.

The most obvious factor is Jim Harbaugh. He seems to be a great fit for ND and when they're turned down by Meyer and Stoops (which they will be), they might go hard after him. With Harbaugh being a Michigan guy, they might see this as their only chance to get him before he gets rooted somewhere else.

It will be an interesting off-season. My gut says Michigan gives Rodriguez another season, although I thought it would wind up in disaster the day the hired him. I think they ought to admit the mistake and move on before they lose another year and recruiting class.

cincrazy
11-21-2009, 07:22 PM
I think that RichRod is getting another year regardless of outside circumstances. Bill Martin is not going to admit to his mistake this quickly and fire Rodriguez. With that being said, Martin has under a year remaining as AD, and if Michigan turns in another subpar season next season, good by RichRod.

Rodriguez is a horrible fit for Michigan, and it's been clear from day one. At the beginning of his hiring, the thought of him at Michigan scared the crap out of me. But once the games started, it became clear that the man did not fit the school.

He's a good coach. And Michigan is a great program. But it's an awful fit.

Revering4Blue
11-21-2009, 08:09 PM
Instant Analysis - Nov. 21

Ohio State 21 ... Michigan 10

Pete Fiutak

Take a good look, Ohio State fans. Take a good, long look at the utter disaster that is the transition period at Michigan, and then hit your knees and thank whatever it is you pray to that Jim Tressel keeps on cranking out great team after great team.

Dog how boring the Buckeyes are all you want, but do you know what’s really boring? Complaints about losing on a regular basis. Year after year, a segment of the Michigan fan base complained about the steady excellence of Lloyd Carr and whined that he didn’t get his teams into the national title discussion enough. That was fair; Michigan should be in the hunt for the BCS Championship every season. But there’s a flip side to the equation, and that’s what happens when you’re trying to rebuild and reload the program. If Rich Rodriguez doesn’t turn the team around next year, then there’s going to be another transitional period and it’s going to be another long period of Ohio State dominance over the Maize and Blue. And that’s where Tressel and his coaching staff come in.

The team turned more and more to the running game over the second half of the season, regularly cranking out over 200 yards per game now, while the defense has been its typical dominant and productive self. And now Ohio State is going to the Rose Bowl, it’s the outright Big Ten champion, and it has a sixth straight win over Michigan. No, Ohio State, you’re not going to the BCS Championship, but enjoy the moment and enjoy what’s happening now. Ask Michigan what the other side is like.

Richard Cirminiello

If the honeymoon wasn’t over for Rich Rodriguez before this weekend, it sure is now.

I believe in Rodriguez as a head coach. What he did at West Virginia was remarkable. I also believe that two seasons is not nearly enough time to evaluate someone. However, now that he’s presided over one of the worst two-year stretches in school history, how do you avoid being critical? I mean, this is Michigan football, one of the most storied programs in all of collegiate sports. Last season was acceptable. New regime, new system, new culture, and all. This year had to be different, however, especially after the Wolverines began the season 4-0. It really wasn’t. No one was asking for miracles in 2009. Bowl eligibility would have sufficed. Minnesota is bowl-eligible. Northwestern is bowl-eligible. And Michigan, for a second straight year, is not, which has become increasingly unacceptable in these parts.

Assuming Rodriguez is back on the sidelines in 2010, the pressure to succeed is going to be insurmountable. Forget bowl eligibility this time around. He better be the catalyst for a quantum leap to eight or nine wins or else there’ll be no 2011. At some point, you can no longer blame the prior regime for the current state of a program. You’ve got to own your portion of the mess. Coach Rod owns one-third of the Wolverines’ six-game losing streak to Ohio State, adding to a very contentious situation in Ann Arbor.

Matt Zemek

1) It’s circular and twisted, but it’s true: See Jim Tressel not coach Terrelle Pryor well. See Terrelle Pryor commit a turnover that gets cashed into points for the other team. See Jim Tressel pull in the reins on Pryor. See Ohio State play conservatively. See Ohio State not make any more turnovers. See Ohio State’s defense dominate. See Ohio State beat Michigan. See Ohio State win the Big Ten outright.

Tressel does need a new offensive coordinator and a better overall (and perhaps differently delegated) approach to play calling, but this game affirmed the basic tenets of the TresselBall method: Don’t make mistakes, win ballgames. The logic of Tressel is sound and unimpeachable; it’s the quarterback coaching which should merit scrutiny and cause concern. Don’t bag on the man or his results; focus on the technical merits of his quarterbacking instruction.

2) Rich Rodriguez needs to come up with a finite plan at quarterback in 2010, when his team will play its next game. The shuffling of Tate Forcier and Denard Robinson was inconsistent this season, and the use of the two signal callers - on a drive in which Robinson was thriving - came back to bite the Michigan boss. The Tate Forcier interception that ended UM’s last best hope of victory was in part the product of very irregular executive decisions. Michigan doesn’t have to go 10-2 next year, but if we’re sitting here in 12 months and the Maize and Blue are outside the bowl game candy store, RichRod’s experiment in Ann Arbor should be terminated.


http://cfn.scout.com/2/921991.html

"Rich Rodriguez needs to come up with a finite plan at quarterback in 2010, when his team will play its next game."

Devin Gardner will solve that problem.

Yachtzee
11-21-2009, 10:28 PM
OK, I hate the Buckeye uni's today. Oogly.



Those unis were brutal. I found it interesting that Nike tried to pass it off as "retro" in that they said it was inspired by a uniform from the '50s, but it was clearly Nike's new uniform template with an old Buckeyes' color scheme slapped on. My feeling is that Nike is using today's uniforms to try and work Ohio State into their uniform template program. I fear that, in the next season or so, the Buckeyes' uniforms are going to look just like Oregon's, Virginia Tech's, Miami's or Florida's, but with a scarlet and gray color scheme. Goodbye nice traditional look. Hello gimmicky designs with contrasting color sleeves, "Miami Bra Straps" across the back, or "diamond plate" on the shoulder pads. My only hope is that enough Buckeye fans raise a stink about the new uni designs that force Nike to keep Ohio State's traditional look.

Ohio State may have been the best team on the scoreboard, but Michigan definitely outclassed the Bucks in the sartorial department. Their Adidas duds had a clean, classic look.

15fan
11-21-2009, 10:45 PM
He's a good coach.

I disagree. (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=273350277)

DTCromer
11-21-2009, 10:51 PM
I disagree. (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=273350277)

Aside from practically building the WVU program himself, he's a terrible coach.

dabvu2498
11-21-2009, 10:56 PM
Aside from practically building the WVU program himself, he's a terrible coach.

Yeah, that Don Nehlen guy never did anything at WVU. :p:

Revering4Blue
11-21-2009, 11:23 PM
I disagree. (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=273350277)

That is a very astute observation. It is unacceptable to lose to a much less talented team within your own conference.

Regards,

Pete Carroll

cincrazy
11-22-2009, 12:30 AM
I disagree. (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=273350277)

West Virginia was a juggernaut under Rodriguez. The results of one game mean little in the grand scheme of things.

Spring~Fields
11-22-2009, 07:55 AM
Instant Analysis - Nov. 21

Take a good look, Ohio State fans. Take a good, long look at the utter disaster that is the transition period at Michigan, and then hit your knees and thank whatever it is you pray to that Jim Tressel keeps on cranking out great team after great team.

So tempting to ask this guy what he thinks of the other Big Ten teams and their “utter disaster” in their long, long “transition“, other than Penn State and Iowa this year.

Is Ohio State really cranking out “great team after great team” or is it the “utter disaster” factor in Michigan and the other Big Ten teams that makes them look like “great team after great team” ?



Team Season Record
Navy W 31-27 8-3
USC L 15-18 7-3
Toledo W 38-0 5-6
Illinois W 30-0 3-7
Indiana W 33-14 4-8
Wisconsin W 31-13 8-3
Purdue L 18-26 5-7
Minnesota W 38-7 6-6
New Mexico State W 45-0 3-8
Penn State W 24-7 10-2
Iowa W 27-24 10-2
Michigan W 21-10 5-7
7 teams .500 or below


“Great team after great team”, or is my favorite Goliath feasting on the weaker “utter disasters”?

traderumor
11-22-2009, 08:21 AM
So tempting to ask this guy what he thinks of the other Big Ten teams and their “utter disaster” in their long, long “transition“, other than Penn State and Iowa this year.

Is Ohio State really cranking out “great team after great team” or is it the “utter disaster” factor in Michigan and the other Big Ten teams that makes them look like “great team after great team” ?



Team Season Record
Navy W 31-27 8-3
USC L 15-18 7-3
Toledo W 38-0 5-6
Illinois W 30-0 3-7
Indiana W 33-14 4-8
Wisconsin W 31-13 8-3
Purdue L 18-26 5-7
Minnesota W 38-7 6-6
New Mexico State W 45-0 3-8
Penn State W 24-7 10-2
Iowa W 27-24 10-2
Michigan W 21-10 5-7
7 teams .500 or below


“Great team after great team”, or is my favorite Goliath feasting on the weaker “utter disasters”?I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Looking at the records of opponents, they beat 2 10-2 teams, 2 8-3 teams, and lost to a 7-3 team. Their loss to Purdue was an anomalic upset that happens to top teams.

Michigan, considering their potential as a program that any other coach they've had has been able to realize, is correctly characterized as an utter disaster.

DTCromer
11-22-2009, 09:34 AM
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Looking at the records of opponents, they beat 2 10-2 teams, 2 8-3 teams, and lost to a 7-3 team. Their loss to Purdue was an anomalic upset that happens to top teams.

Michigan, considering their potential as a program that any other coach they've had has been able to realize, is correctly characterized as an utter disaster.

Has the Big 10 had any significant OOC win this year? I know Iowa beat Arizona at home with their now backup QB and NFL prospect of a TE out. Other than that, have they beat anyone worth mentioning? In a year where college football, as a whole, is medicore, they haven't really beat anyone.

I'm not saying OSU is average, but just because they beat Penn State and Iowa doesn't mean they're great considering A) Penn State's best win is probably NW and B) Iowa has looked like garbage in most of their wins.

cincrazy
11-22-2009, 09:36 AM
OSU has won ten straight games for five straight years. I don't care who they're playing, that's impressive. It's not as if every other team in the country plays juggernauts every week. IMO, Ohio State has had a tougher schedule than Florida and Alabama up to this point.

I'm not concerned with the rest of the Big 10. They can rot for all I'm concerned. All I know is Jim Tressel has won eight out of nine vs. Michigan, and five straight Big 10 titles. It's a once in a lifetime kind of run, and I'm enjoying it.

goreds2
11-22-2009, 10:55 AM
I'm not concerned with the rest of the Big 10. They can rot for all I'm concerned. All I know is Jim Tressel has won eight out of nine vs. Michigan, and five straight Big 10 titles. It's a once in a lifetime kind of run, and I'm enjoying it.

Very well said. :beerme:

GAC
11-22-2009, 12:51 PM
Rodriquez will get another year, and IMO should. He's trying to build a program. Wasn't he hired late in the first year that possibly hindered his scouting, recruiting?

I agree with what tr alluded to earlier, and that basically, while I love beating up on Michigan, the Big 10 NEEDS that Michigan program to restore itself to being one of the nation's elite teams again. It will help the conference too overall.

Charlie Weis is another story. He'll be history, if not already, after Harbaugh's Stanford tears them up next week.

The only thing that bothers me about this OSU team, and Pryor in particular, is the passing game. Yeah, we ran the ball down the Wolverine's throat for 251 yds. But the Wolverine's pass defense ain't nothing to brag about either, and Pryor was 9 of 17 for 67 yards with a TD and an interception (deflected pass). Our pass offense is LAST in the Big 10.

I like Posey (sophmore), but Sanzenbacher has been disappointing IMO. And is there some rule in Tressel's playbook where it's pretty much forbidden to throw to your RBs more then 2-3 times/game?

Now some may rightly contend that that is simply Tressel, as far as if and when he allows Pryor to pass. And maybe that's because Pryor just isn't that good of a passer. I don't know. I do know though that I've watched this kid miss a lot of open receivers this year.

But I have seen much improvement (maturity) in Terrel in the second half of the season.

cincrazy
11-22-2009, 01:24 PM
Rodriquez will get another year, and IMO should. He's trying to build a program. Wasn't he hired late in the first year that possibly hindered his scouting, recruiting?

I agree with what tr alluded to earlier, and that basically, while I love beating up on Michigan, the Big 10 NEEDS that Michigan program to restore itself to being one of the nation's elite teams again. It will help the conference too overall.

Charlie Weis is another story. He'll be history, if not already, after Harbaugh's Stanford tears them up next week.

The only thing that bothers me about this OSU team, and Pryor in particular, is the passing game. Yeah, we ran the ball down the Wolverine's throat for 251 yds. But the Wolverine's pass defense ain't nothing to brag about either, and Pryor was 9 of 17 for 67 yards with a TD and an interception (deflected pass). Our pass offense is LAST in the Big 10.

I like Posey (sophmore), but Sanzenbacher has been disappointing IMO. And is there some rule in Tressel's playbook where it's pretty much forbidden to throw to your RBs more then 2-3 times/game?

Now some may rightly contend that that is simply Tressel, as far as if and when he allows Pryor to pass. And maybe that's because Pryor just isn't that good of a passer. I don't know. I do know though that I've watched this kid miss a lot of open receivers this year.

But I have seen much improvement (maturity) in Terrel in the second half of the season.

After watching Pryor all season, I don't think he's capable of making most of these throws. He's missed several easy throws all year, and I think Tressel is handling it perfectly by limiting what he can do. I was kicking and screaming for Pryor to do more, until the Purdue game, then it became obvious to me that Pryor+doingmore=unmitigated disaster.

And I think Rodriguez needs more time also. But what I find most stunning about his tenure is how BAD they are. I know they need time to rebuild the program, but they've been downright dreadful for two years. I don't think there's any excuse for three Big 10 wins in two years, especially with how bad the conference is. The guy isn't very good at coaching talent that can't fit into his system.

REDblooded
11-22-2009, 04:13 PM
I HATE it that Michigan isn't going after Kelly... His 2 jobs previous to UC were Michigan schools, so he obviously has connections there. Michigan's defense this season was putrid, and that was with some actual good talent on defense with Brandon Graham, Warren, and Brown. At the VERY LEAST they need to get rid of Robinson. He's a turd.

Spring~Fields
11-22-2009, 04:25 PM
the Big 10 NEEDS that Michigan program to restore itself to being one of the nation's elite teams again. It will help the conference too overall.


Yes it would really help the conference if Michigan and the other's improved, also it would help Ohio State improve.

Now I am going out and wrestle some ten year olds and claim victory and a championship... :cool:... Not.

Chip R
11-22-2009, 04:35 PM
Ohio State = Not that good according to Michigan's punter.

http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20091122?sub_id=1x6DvWpQ63P5&folio=20#pg20

Spring~Fields
11-22-2009, 07:17 PM
Ohio State = Not that good according to Michigan's punter.

http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20091122?sub_id=1x6DvWpQ63P5&folio=20#pg20

The punter? I wonder what his opinion is of his own team then? :) I wonder if he will be openly expressing that to his coach. :)

15fan
11-22-2009, 08:20 PM
West Virginia was a juggernaut under Rodriguez. The results of one game mean little in the grand scheme of things.

Except it wasn't just any game. I'd argue it was the 2nd most important game in WVU history, second only to the Tony Rice / Major Harris Fiesta Bowl about 20 years ago.

All he had to do was beat a very bad Pitt team coached by Dave Wannstedt, and WV would go on to the national title game. The game was in Morgantown. The refs did everything they could to give WVU the game, with all sorts of late/bogus holding calls.

Even after Pat White went down, RR still had a kid in the backfield named Steve Slaton. As in Steve Slaton who rushed for almost 1300 yards last season as a rookie with Houston. And Noel Devine was available as well. They combined for 16 carries & 22 yards.

Somehow, someway, the offensive genius RichRod found a way to gag it away.

cincrazy
11-22-2009, 08:56 PM
Except it wasn't just any game. I'd argue it was the 2nd most important game in WVU history, second only to the Tony Rice / Major Harris Fiesta Bowl about 20 years ago.

All he had to do was beat a very bad Pitt team coached by Dave Wannstedt, and WV would go on to the national title game. The game was in Morgantown. The refs did everything they could to give WVU the game, with all sorts of late/bogus holding calls.

Even after Pat White went down, RR still had a kid in the backfield named Steve Slaton. As in Steve Slaton who rushed for almost 1300 yards last season as a rookie with Houston. And Noel Devine was available as well. They combined for 16 carries & 22 yards.

Somehow, someway, the offensive genius RichRod found a way to gag it away.

Pitt wasn't as bad as their record, and it was a rivalry game. It happens. If you're going to pick out that one game, how about going back a year and looking at the Georgia game when WVU ROMPED the Bulldogs despite not having nearly as much NFL talent.

MWM
11-22-2009, 09:13 PM
I agree with 15. It wasn't just that they lost the game when they were clearly the superior team and a win puts them in the national title game (the worst luck possible for Ohio State as I don't think they would have had much difficulty with WVU in the title game compared to LSU), it's how they looked in the loss. The team played incredibly tight, were clearly not prepared, and Rodriguez looked like he was in way over his head on the sidelines. That game reflected incredibly poorly on Rich Rod beyond just the result.

I never understood why it was universally accepted that Rodriguez was a great coach. He had 3 good years at WVU with mostly the same team. It was a good team, but it also coincided with the time when the Big East was pretty bad (similar to Ohio State's recent success in the Big Ten). If you look through the results of those years, they never really beat an elite team. The best win he had was a 3 point victory over Georgia in a bowl game (a pretty good win, but that's it). And he had at least one bad loss every single year.

His teams have never played defense well at all, and from all accounts his teams never played smart football and were generally undisciplined. He didn't have enough success at WVU over a long enough period to think it was a given he'd be able to transfer it to a big-time program. I thought he was a horrible fit the day he signed in Ann Arbor, but now I think it's even worse than I originally suspected.

Add to that the shady nature of his reputation and I just don't think he's going to last in a place like Ann Arbor. This whole practice log thing is very amateurish and should never happen in Michigan. After listening to the MIchigan AD, I'm sure he's going to get another year (Tommy Amaker got about 2 years more than he should have). But I firmly believe it's just postponing the inevitable. He's not cut out for a place like Ann Arbor. He should have firmly cemented himself right in Morgantown. He's going to look back one day (and probably very soon) and have one of those "WTF was I thinking" moments. He'll be able to be a coach in college football for a long time, but I have a feeling it's not going to be at an elite program. Just my $.02.

MWM
11-22-2009, 09:24 PM
Pitt wasn't as bad as their record, and it was a rivalry game. It happens. If you're going to pick out that one game, how about going back a year and looking at the Georgia game when WVU ROMPED the Bulldogs despite not having nearly as much NFL talent.

They won by 3 points. They actually got off to a 21-0 lead before barely holding off Georgia. Up 3, a risky fake punk with 2 minutes left allowed WVU to run out the clock. Had that not worked, Georgia would have had the ball with a chance to win. It was a very close game, almost blown by WVU. The racked up 502 yards of offense, but also gave up 501, typical of Rich Rod teams, a type of style that probably isn't going to work in the Big Ten where good defense is played (yes, they play good defense in the big ten. It's the offenses that are stuck in the flinstone era).

And that's looking at one game as well. To that point, Rich Rod was 0-3 in bowl games. He won that game and beat Georgia Tech the following year by 3 points to finish 2-3 in bowl games in his time at WVU. Other than the Georgia game, you can't really point to any other marquis wins other than things like beating Louisville or Rutgers in conference.

cincrazy
11-22-2009, 10:07 PM
They won by 3 points. They actually got off to a 21-0 lead before barely holding off Georgia. Up 3, a risky fake punk with 2 minutes left allowed WVU to run out the clock. Had that not worked, Georgia would have had the ball with a chance to win. It was a very close game, almost blown by WVU. The racked up 502 yards of offense, but also gave up 501, typical of Rich Rod teams, a type of style that probably isn't going to work in the Big Ten where good defense is played (yes, they play good defense in the big ten. It's the offenses that are stuck in the flinstone era).

And that's looking at one game as well. To that point, Rich Rod was 0-3 in bowl games. He won that game and beat Georgia Tech the following year by 3 points to finish 2-3 in bowl games in his time at WVU. Other than the Georgia game, you can't really point to any other marquis wins other than things like beating Louisville or Rutgers in conference.

Fair enough. You make some really good points. I don't think RichRod is a great coach by any means, and I think he's a horrible fit for that program, as I've stated a few times on here already. But I do think he's a good coach, and although his tenure at WVU wasn't exactly perfect, I don't think they'll duplicate that success any time soon.

MWM
11-22-2009, 10:14 PM
Yeah, Michigan has put themselves in a really difficult situation. Rodriguez and his style of play requires a completely different type of player than the ones who were currently at Michigan and who are generally inclined to go to Michigan. If things don't work out with him, they're in a situation where they have to either choose a coach that can work with Rodriguez-style personnel, or be willing to wait for another re-tooling and transition period. That's what happens when you try to change things too drastically and don't fully appreciate the importance of fit.

One of the biggest concerns I had with Rodriguez is around defense, though. Michigan has historically been a great defensive program. They had to know with Rodriguez coming in the defense was going to be relegated to second priority. Looking forward, THAT is the bigger problem than the offense, IMO. I watched them play Wisconsin and it was amazing how easily Wisconsin just marched the ball up the field the entire game. That's not going to work in Michigan.

Sea Ray
11-22-2009, 10:33 PM
What's really sad is that Michigan let Ryan Mallett go so they could play this smurf of a QB. If Michigan keeps this coach around for another year then they're just compounding their original mistake of hiring him in the first place

MWM
11-22-2009, 10:45 PM
I agree. It's not too dissimilar from the Tyron Willingham firing. They didn't fire him because the record the last two years he was there. They fired him because it was OBVIOUS he was totally running the program into the ground and waiting any longer could made things even worse (not that they turned out rosy, but Ty's fingerprints were all over where the ND program went after Weis' first two years). I think if they look closely and take the ego out of the question (the current AD hired this guy), they'd see that the direction they're headed is not going to lead anywhere good.

George Foster
11-22-2009, 11:01 PM
I HATE it that Michigan isn't going after Kelly... His 2 jobs previous to UC were Michigan schools, so he obviously has connections there. Michigan's defense this season was putrid, and that was with some actual good talent on defense with Brandon Graham, Warren, and Brown. At the VERY LEAST they need to get rid of Robinson. He's a turd.

The Rumors in Athens are that Georgia will be going after Kelly. I'm a big SEC fan, and not to objective, but don't you think that winning at Michigan would be easier than in the SEC?

I think it would be easier for Kelly to recruit speed at Georgia. I think that both jobs are equal in prestige, but the SEC is the better conference right now.

I could make good arguments for taking both jobs.

dabvu2498
11-23-2009, 12:27 AM
The Rumors in Athens are that Georgia will be going after Kelly. I'm a big SEC fan, and not to objective, but don't you think that winning at Michigan would be easier than in the SEC?

I think it would be easier for Kelly to recruit speed at Georgia. I think that both jobs are equal in prestige, but the SEC is the better conference right now.

I could make good arguments for taking both jobs.

No way Richt is gone after this year. He's still owed $2 mil a year for the next 4 years.

REDblooded
11-23-2009, 12:40 AM
What's really sad is that Michigan let Ryan Mallett go so they could play this smurf of a QB. If Michigan keeps this coach around for another year then they're just compounding their original mistake of hiring him in the first place

Go read up a bit...

But in the meantime, I'll spend 2 minutes talking about something I have absolutely zero education on...

Todays lesson... Brain Surgery.

I think it's really important when operating on a tumor to make sure you wash your hands thoroughly before beginning the operation. After that, carefully choose the spot where you will make your incision and mark it with a red sharpie. From here on out, it's all about feel. Too deep and your patient is in worse shape than he started in...

That concludes today's lesson on Brain Surgery.


Now that that's out of the way...

Mallet wasn't run off so they could bring in Forcier. Mallet chose to leave the program pretty much as soon as the coaching decision was made. It was probably a pretty poor idea, because Rodriguez has the ability to adapt his offense to fit the personnel. He's actually had very successful offenses in the past without a mobile QB. Ah... And Forcier didn't join Michigan until this past winter. Over a full year after Mallet made the decision to transfer... Makes it pretty tough to connect the two doesn't it?

REDblooded
11-23-2009, 12:44 AM
Ohio State = Not that good according to Michigan's punter.

http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20091122?sub_id=1x6DvWpQ63P5&folio=20#pg20

Without reading the article... They really aren't that good... Think about this... If the Michigan FG kicker doesn't miss a chip shot in the first half and they get 2 fg's instead of Forciers 2 boneheaded INT's deep in Tosu territory in the 4th quarter, Michigan either loses by 1, or gets the ball back with a chance to kick a FG for a win.... And Michigan is pretty terrible this season... Heck, take away Forcier's stupid mistake of fumbling on his own goalline, and they don't even need to get the ball back late...

Ohio State is decent. But they're not good. I would say on any given day they would lose 10 of 15 against the top 15 non Big 10 schools.

MWM
11-23-2009, 12:51 AM
Without reading the article... They really aren't that good... Think about this... If the Michigan FG kicker doesn't miss a chip shot in the first half and they get 2 fg's instead of Forciers 2 boneheaded INT's deep in Tosu territory in the 4th quarter, Michigan either loses by 1, or gets the ball back with a chance to kick a FG for a win.... And Michigan is pretty terrible this season... Heck, take away Forcier's stupid mistake of fumbling on his own goalline, and they don't even need to get the ball back late...

Ohio State is decent. But they're not good. I would say on any given day they would lose 10 of 15 against the top 15 non Big 10 schools.

Normally, I can follow that kind of logic. But Tressel is an anomaly that makes it difficult to what-if in games he coaches. If it's a closer game, he would have played it completely differently. As long as he has at least a TD lead, he's not goig to push anything on offense, but as soon as the gap narrows, he'll be a bit more agressive. I can't tell you how many games I've watched the last 8 years where it looks like they're not even trying on offense only to have the opposing team score and cut it close, then to have the offense seem to wake up and put together a great drive. It's frustrating, but it's nonetheless true with Tressel. If that FG is made and the game is closer, OSU would have played it a lot differently. That's not to say they would have been successful, but it would have looked different than it did.

Having said all that, I also agree OSU isn't all that good. The defense is excellent, but the offense is below average. If they ever HAVE to put up points to win a game, they're screwed.

GAC
11-23-2009, 05:19 AM
Without reading the article... They really aren't that good... Think about this... If the Michigan FG kicker doesn't miss a chip shot in the first half and they get 2 fg's instead of Forciers 2 boneheaded INT's deep in Tosu territory in the 4th quarter, Michigan either loses by 1, or gets the ball back with a chance to kick a FG for a win.... And Michigan is pretty terrible this season... Heck, take away Forcier's stupid mistake of fumbling on his own goalline, and they don't even need to get the ball back late...

Ohio State is decent. But they're not good. I would say on any given day they would lose 10 of 15 against the top 15 non Big 10 schools.

A lot of "Ifs" there.

Yeah, Michigan made mistakes. All teams make mistakes. I get so tired of hearing teams (not just Michigan either) say "We beat ourselves". It's like trying to take a petty slap at the opposition, even after you lost, and that they really didn't deserve to win.

It's like the OSU defense - which is pretty darn good - didn't have any hand in forcing Michigan into any of those mistakes at all. Stuff like reaching in and knocking the ball out of Forcier's hand in the endzone, putting pressure on a QB and forcing him into a bad mistake. That's happened with Pryor this year. So I guess one could argue that OSU should be undefeated IF certain situations had/hadn't happened in that USC and Purdue games. But again, it's part of the game.

Like my grandpa use to tell me.... "And if a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his butt every time he hopped."

6-4-3
11-23-2009, 07:16 AM
Stuff like reaching in and knocking the ball out of Forcier's hand in the endzone

That ball wasn't knocked out. He simply dropped it while scrambling, happened at least a half dozen times, if not more this year.

Roy Tucker
11-23-2009, 08:09 AM
Having said all that, I also agree OSU isn't all that good. The defense is excellent, but the offense is below average. If they ever HAVE to put up points to win a game, they're screwed.




I agree in a sense. Its a matter of semantics.

OSU has a pretty good team. You don't get the record they have by being bad. They can get away with what they do in the Big 10. Excellent defense, excellent kicking game, and a oh-yeah-we-have-an-offense. They win games, just not very pretty. OSU is like pizza, beer, or sex, even when they are bad, they are still pretty good. I'll take a 10-2 "down" year.

I'm just cringing though to think of them against Oregon or Stanford in the Rose Bowl though. The OSU defense is very good, but if they have to defend excellent athletes all over the field (like what west coast teams do), they can only keep that up for so long. An anemic offense will keep them on the field too long.

And I thought I'd never say this, but I want Michigan to get better too. Ohio State-Michigan used to really mean something.

And I have to say, Pryor is a phenomenal athlete, but not a very good QB. I don't know where he'll play in the NFL, but it won't be QB.

15fan
11-23-2009, 08:35 AM
And I thought I'd never say this, but I want Michigan to get better too. Ohio State-Michigan used to really mean something.

Nah.

The ledger isn't quite evened from the John Cooper era.

That's something that ought to be paid back.

With interest.

bucksfan2
11-23-2009, 08:48 AM
Mallet wasn't run off so they could bring in Forcier. Mallet chose to leave the program pretty much as soon as the coaching decision was made. It was probably a pretty poor idea, because Rodriguez has the ability to adapt his offense to fit the personnel. He's actually had very successful offenses in the past without a mobile QB. Ah... And Forcier didn't join Michigan until this past winter. Over a full year after Mallet made the decision to transfer... Makes it pretty tough to connect the two doesn't it?

Rod is flexible? Actually I think that is one of his faults, his inability to adapt. He runs the spread style offense, and he is going to run that even if he doesn't have the personal to do so. Look at last years disastrous season when he tried to run the spread with Sheridan.

From an outsider's point of view Rod was an awful hire. But he did more damage when he first stepped on campus when he didn't adapt the Michigan tradition. His first move should have been to throw everything at Mallet and convince him to stay. He also had some other noticeable defections, one being Boren, that left his program in poor shape. Even the week leading up to OSU UM Rod had to deal with questions about him embracing the tradition of UM.

I don't think Rod's style of play will work at UM. I just don't see a full blown spread working at UM. And if the spread is to work at a school like UM they need a bigger QB than Forcier or Robinson. I just don't think they can take the pounding that schools like Iowa, PSU, or OSU will give them. It make work in the Big East where the athletes aren't as big or as fast, but not in the Big 10. Look at the successful spread teams in the SEC, it usually takes a big QB to run a spread because of the punishment they take.

Sea Ray
11-23-2009, 10:37 AM
Mallet wasn't run off so they could bring in Forcier. Mallet chose to leave the program pretty much as soon as the coaching decision was made. It was probably a pretty poor idea, because Rodriguez has the ability to adapt his offense to fit the personnel. He's actually had very successful offenses in the past without a mobile QB. Ah... And Forcier didn't join Michigan until this past winter. Over a full year after Mallet made the decision to transfer... Makes it pretty tough to connect the two doesn't it?


You don't get it. Mallett left because he didn't want to be in a spread offense. Smart kid. In other words he left because of who Mich hired. So UM drove him off by who they hired. This left them to find a new QB, which was Forcier. If they'd hired a guy like Bobby Petrino or Steve Sarkisian, Mallett would have stayed and Mich would be much better off. It was a huge mistake from the get go to hire a spead option coach in Ann Arbor.

Dots connected...

DTCromer
11-23-2009, 10:49 AM
Didn't Pryor want to go to OSU to develop him into a pro QB?

:facepalm

KoryMac5
11-23-2009, 10:53 AM
Michigan's AD speaks on the coaching situation:


Michigan athletic director Bill Martin also endorsed Rodriguez on Saturday.
“Rich Rodriguez is our coach,” he said. “I and the administration fully support him, and you’ll see him in the future.”
When asked if that meant next year, Martin said, “Absolutely.”
Even if Michigan is found to have committed NCAA violations regarding excessive practice time?
“He will be our coach next year, today,” Martin said.
Asked to clarify what “today” meant, Martin said, “Well then delete the word today.”
“He’ll be here next year, no question,” Martin said.

That 4 million dollar buyout might have something to do with giving coach another year.

Personally I think 2 years is not enough time to install an entirely new system into a program and expect success. If Michigan continues to lose next year look for the rumors to swirl and a certain Stanford coach to become highly sought after. However I would expect some changes on the defensive side of the ball. Michigan was pounded in some of their losses.

Sea Ray
11-23-2009, 11:19 AM
Michigan's AD speaks on the coaching situation:



That 4 million dollar buyout might have something to do with giving coach another year.

Personally I think 2 years is not enough time to install an entirely new system into a program and expect success. If Michigan continues to lose next year look for the rumors to swirl and a certain Stanford coach to become highly sought after. However I would expect some changes on the defensive side of the ball. Michigan was pounded in some of their losses.

2 years probably isn't enough time but I didn't like the hire from the beginning. If Mich is too stubborn to see their mistake now then they'll err twice

bucksfan2
11-23-2009, 11:22 AM
That 4 million dollar buyout might have something to do with giving coach another year.

Personally I think 2 years is not enough time to install an entirely new system into a program and expect success. If Michigan continues to lose next year look for the rumors to swirl and a certain Stanford coach to become highly sought after. However I would expect some changes on the defensive side of the ball. Michigan was pounded in some of their losses.

I agree with you that 2 years isn't enough. But from my perspective it has been 2 years of excuse making. IMO Rodriguez has done more damage in two years than any of his predictors. I equate Michigan's stature to that of OSU's. There is absolutely no reason that you should have 2 below .500 seasons and 2 bowl less seasons. The cupboard is never that bare at UM. Even if it is bare, it still is better than half of the teams in their league.

As a buckeye fan it never gets old beating UM. But I do miss that excitement before the game. The games in 02, 03, 04, 06, 07 were big time national games. That I do miss.

BuckeyeRed27
11-23-2009, 12:47 PM
Without reading the article... They really aren't that good... Think about this... If the Michigan FG kicker doesn't miss a chip shot in the first half and they get 2 fg's instead of Forciers 2 boneheaded INT's deep in Tosu territory in the 4th quarter, Michigan either loses by 1, or gets the ball back with a chance to kick a FG for a win.... And Michigan is pretty terrible this season... Heck, take away Forcier's stupid mistake of fumbling on his own goalline, and they don't even need to get the ball back late...

Ohio State is decent. But they're not good. I would say on any given day they would lose 10 of 15 against the top 15 non Big 10 schools.

If OSU wanted to open it up they could have won that game something like 49-21. They would have scored a lot more and turned the ball over a few times and Mich would have gotten a couple more scores. But that's not JT's style. OSU was in complete control of that game and you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

OSU could play with any top team right now because of their D and their style. A great offensive team would probably beat them most of the time. The thing is there isn't a great offensive team in college football this year. Some teams have shown flashes (like Texas and Oregon) but have been inconsitent.

REDblooded
11-23-2009, 12:55 PM
Another thing about Martin (Michigan AD)... Not sure why he's speaking on the situation... Isn't he on the way out?

REDblooded
11-23-2009, 12:56 PM
You don't get it. Mallett left because he didn't want to be in a spread offense. Smart kid. In other words he left because of who Mich hired. So UM drove him off by who they hired. This left them to find a new QB, which was Forcier. If they'd hired a guy like Bobby Petrino or Steve Sarkisian, Mallett would have stayed and Mich would be much better off. It was a huge mistake from the get go to hire a spead option coach in Ann Arbor.

Dots connected...

Yeah, but you don't HAVE to have a mobile QB to make a spread work... UC does just fine when Pike is in the game...

REDblooded
11-23-2009, 01:14 PM
Rod is flexible? Actually I think that is one of his faults, his inability to adapt. He runs the spread style offense, and he is going to run that even if he doesn't have the personal to do so. Look at last years disastrous season when he tried to run the spread with Sheridan.

From an outsider's point of view Rod was an awful hire. But he did more damage when he first stepped on campus when he didn't adapt the Michigan tradition. His first move should have been to throw everything at Mallet and convince him to stay. He also had some other noticeable defections, one being Boren, that left his program in poor shape. Even the week leading up to OSU UM Rod had to deal with questions about him embracing the tradition of UM.

I don't think Rod's style of play will work at UM. I just don't see a full blown spread working at UM. And if the spread is to work at a school like UM they need a bigger QB than Forcier or Robinson. I just don't think they can take the pounding that schools like Iowa, PSU, or OSU will give them. It make work in the Big East where the athletes aren't as big or as fast, but not in the Big 10. Look at the successful spread teams in the SEC, it usually takes a big QB to run a spread because of the punishment they take.

To the first point, there was ZERO chance of success last season no matter what offense he tried to run. They simply didn't have the personnel. Rodriguez got a horribly late jump on recruiting at Michigan, and there wasn't a ton of offensive talent to begin with.

As for the Boren defection. No matter what you hear in buckeye land, Boren left because he was being singled out by Barwis (michigans strength coach) for being soft and not working as hard as everybody else. Boren was a prima dona that couldn't hack it when he was forced to take his training in a different direction, and with a level of commitment that he had never had to go to before. Bottom line. End of story. As for who was right? I'll take Barwis on this one... Quick did you know... Leading up to the 2008 NFL season Lamar Woodley opted to train at Michigan with Barwis instead of working out with his fellow Steelers. When starting his training regimine Barwis asked Woodley to set his goals. Woodley set them, and Barwis laughed, then gave him new tougher goals. Woodley said at the time he thought Barwis was insane, but within 2-3 weeks Woodley was able to meet each of the lifting and sprinting goals that Barwis had created for him... Led to a pretty decent 2008 NFL campaign iirc.

Finally, Rodriguez HAS had success running the spread without a terribly mobile QB, albeit one with a bit more size. In 1998 he led Tulane to a 12-0 season with Shaun King as his starting QB. King wasn't the most mobile QB in the world, but had 156 carries for 633 yards at 4.1 ypc. However he was 244/364 with 3495 yards passing and 38 TD's. That offense wasn't the same one as the one he ran at WVU, but he adapted it to fit his personnel, and it worked well.

Either way... The correct QB will be there next season when Devin Gardner comes in. He'll also be an early enrollee, so it will be interesting to see how that works out. 6'4"/195, good (but not dynamic) runner (though rivals does rate him as the top scrambler) with the 2nd strongest arm in the country.

Sea Ray
11-23-2009, 01:18 PM
Yeah, but you don't HAVE to have a mobile QB to make a spread work... UC does just fine when Pike is in the game...

UC runs a version of the spread but it's not a spread option. You need a mobile QB for a spread option.

Throwing that aside, spread systems in college do not bode well for a guy's NFL career. If Mallett wants to start in the NFL and best prepare himself, he's smart to pick a school with a pro set offense. We will likely see this play out in the draft. My guess is you'll see Jake Locker go before Tim Tebow

Sea Ray
11-23-2009, 01:22 PM
RichRod's problems go much deeper than finding a QB. The decline of the defense is criminal by UM standards. That should never happen in Ann Arbor.

I'm just not impressed with the guy. Just hearing him speak he doesn't seem like a leader or a motivator nor does he sound confident.

bucksfan2
11-23-2009, 01:35 PM
To the first point, there was ZERO chance of success last season no matter what offense he tried to run. They simply didn't have the personnel. Rodriguez got a horribly late jump on recruiting at Michigan, and there wasn't a ton of offensive talent to begin with.

Its Michigan. ZERO chance of success means winning 6 games in a down Big 10. That is the biggest indictment on Rich Rod for me, he hasn't been able to win games. The best coaches are able to up coach their players and win games. I know there was turmoil in the program. I know it was a different system. But the fact of the matter is Michigan is still a destination program. They still walked onto the field in about 75% of their games with better athletes than their opponent. To me that is more about coaching than anything else.


As for the Boren defection. No matter what you hear in buckeye land, Boren left because he was being singled out by Barwis (michigans strength coach) for being soft and not working as hard as everybody else. Boren was a prima dona that couldn't hack it when he was forced to take his training in a different direction, and with a level of commitment that he had never had to go to before. Bottom line. End of story. As for who was right? I'll take Barwis on this one... Quick did you know... Leading up to the 2008 NFL season Lamar Woodley opted to train at Michigan with Barwis instead of working out with his fellow Steelers. When starting his training regimine Barwis asked Woodley to set his goals. Woodley set them, and Barwis laughed, then gave him new tougher goals. Woodley said at the time he thought Barwis was insane, but within 2-3 weeks Woodley was able to meet each of the lifting and sprinting goals that Barwis had created for him... Led to a pretty decent 2008 NFL campaign iirc.

I have heard both sides of the story. There probably is a little bit of truth in everything that is being said. I have also heard that Barwis is insane. I have heard that his workouts were gruesome. But what I do see is that Boren is starting on OSU's line. He started before he left UM. In all likelihood he will end up playing on Sundays when his time at OSU comes to an end. He may very well have been a prima dona, but when you come into a new program you work to keep those guys in your program. You sell your program on them. IIRC he also had WR defections in Manningham and Arrington who left probably a year early.

Unless you were in the program or had first hand knowledge everything is conjecture.


Finally, Rodriguez HAS had success running the spread without a terribly mobile QB, albeit one with a bit more size. In 1998 he led Tulane to a 12-0 season with Shaun King as his starting QB. King wasn't the most mobile QB in the world, but had 156 carries for 633 yards at 4.1 ypc. However he was 244/364 with 3495 yards passing and 38 TD's. That offense wasn't the same one as the one he ran at WVU, but he adapted it to fit his personnel, and it worked well.

It was Tulane. And I don't exactly think King was a statue. When he was first hired I didn't think his style of offense would work at UM. A smallish QB in the spread offense is a recipe for disaster. Frocier took his fair share of beatings this season and it really showed. You need to have a very solid QB back there to run the spread effectively and take all the hits.


Either way... The correct QB will be there next season when Devin Gardner comes in. He'll also be an early enrollee, so it will be interesting to see how that works out. 6'4"/195, good (but not dynamic) runner (though rivals does rate him as the top scrambler) with the 2nd strongest arm in the country.

It will be Forcier's job to lose, if he stays at UM. It is never a good thing to throw a freshman QB into the starting roll at the beginning. They need time to develop to the speed of the college game. They need time to adapt to the school work and the college life. Even the most highly thought of college recruits struggle, see Pryor, Terrelle.

LoganBuck
11-23-2009, 02:33 PM
Either way... The correct QB will be there next season when Devin Gardner comes in. He'll also be an early enrollee, so it will be interesting to see how that works out. 6'4"/195, good (but not dynamic) runner (though rivals does rate him as the top scrambler) with the 2nd strongest arm in the country.

Devin Gardner is as raw as they come. Good tools, but he needs the time on the bench that Forcier never got.

MWM
11-23-2009, 05:59 PM
If I were advising Ryan Mallet, the second they named Rodriguez as the coach, I would have told him to get out of dodge. Mallet had a serious attitude problem his freshman year in Ann Arbor, but he did the right thing by leaving. It was a no-brainer, IMO.

westofyou
11-23-2009, 06:35 PM
But the fact of the matter is Michigan is still a destination program. They still walked onto the field in about 75% of their games with better athletes than their opponent. To me that is more about coaching than anything else.




Yep, plus UM fans knew they'd experience a dip at some juncture (it's the nature of the beast) but one thing I know we can't stand for is the porus defense, and 4th quarter nightmares, that's not Big Ten nor UM football and if he can't stop that it will not matter how powerful his offense is, UM fans want smash-mouth defense, not to get smashed.

REDblooded
11-24-2009, 12:28 AM
Yep, plus UM fans knew they'd experience a dip at some juncture (it's the nature of the beast) but one thing I know we can't stand for is the porus defense, and 4th quarter nightmares, that's not Big Ten nor UM football and if he can't stop that it will not matter how powerful his offense is, UM fans want smash-mouth defense, not to get smashed.

I'm a UM fan... I could care less about smash mouth. I want to see winning football... One thing is for certain though... Greg Robinson sucks.

traderumor
11-24-2009, 08:27 AM
I'm a UM fan... I could care less about smash mouth. I want to see winning football... One thing is for certain though... Greg Robinson sucks.I'd argue that on D, if you want to see winning, you want to care about smash mouth.