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cincrazy
11-23-2009, 01:25 PM
I fire Bob Bratkowski after the year, and hire Charlie Weis. Will it cost a pretty penny? You bet your butt it will. But it should be done. I don't care what the guy did at Notre Dame, he clearly has had some success as a coordinator in the NFL. Palmer NEEDS that kind of presence, and so does the offense, to meet its true potential. Brat has done a better job this season, but it's still clear that he's far from top notch at his job.

We have a top flight D-coordinator (albeit maybe for not much longer if he gets a job after the season). It's about time we go out and get a top flight offensive mind. Carson deserves as much.

Reds4Life
11-23-2009, 01:38 PM
Weis would come cheap, Notre Dame is going to have to pay him a truckload of cash to get rid of him. At his age, and with the money he's going to get from them, he might just retire and say forget it.

KoryMac5
11-23-2009, 02:05 PM
You can put the chances of Weis coming to the Bengals at .00000000001. Weis is extremely close to Tom Brady to the point that when Weis was in the hospital Brady remained bedside until Charlie was out of the woods. Brady continues to talk with Weis on a weekly basis and you can guarantee that when Weis is done at ND he will be headed to Foxboro to rejoin the team and call the plays.

Plus he is getting 14 million from Notre Dame when he steps down. Not a bad gig leave one team with 14 million and than join another to call plays for Tom Brady.

bucksfan2
11-23-2009, 02:36 PM
Brat didn't miss a 37 yard FG. Brat didn't fumble the ball inside the 20. Brat didn't fumble the ball on the kickoff. Brat has faced his fair share of criticism but it was the players who let down the team, not the coaches. It was Shayne Graham not living up to his contract. It was Jeremi Johnson forgetting to hold onto the ball on a good play call.

cincrazy
11-23-2009, 03:45 PM
Brat didn't miss a 37 yard FG. Brat didn't fumble the ball inside the 20. Brat didn't fumble the ball on the kickoff. Brat has faced his fair share of criticism but it was the players who let down the team, not the coaches. It was Shayne Graham not living up to his contract. It was Jeremi Johnson forgetting to hold onto the ball on a good play call.

I wasn't talking about the Oakland game. I don't put the blame for that loss on Brat, I said as much in another thread.

But what I am saying is this team can do WAY better than Brat at offensive coordinator, and to pretend otherwise is silly. You're telling me stupid mistakes that we see every week like false starts and fumbles have nothing to do with coaching? I don't buy that.

cincrazy
11-23-2009, 03:46 PM
Also, I know this is extremely unlikely. I'm just pretty much dreaming out loud, and starting conversation on what I would LIKE to see happen.

George Foster
11-24-2009, 01:22 AM
I see him sitting out a year, and staying under the radar. It would be a easy move to Cincinnati...

TeamSelig
11-24-2009, 02:38 AM
I agree. Brat needs to be gone.

LoganBuck
11-24-2009, 06:49 AM
Is it just me or does anyone else think that Shayne Graham no longer qualifies as a "top kicker"? He is very inconsistent on kickoffs, his range now seems limited to 45 yards and in, and he is the "franchise player". He is due another raise after the season, I would just as soon see him walk.

DTCromer
11-24-2009, 07:48 AM
Brat didn't miss a 37 yard FG. Brat didn't fumble the ball inside the 20. Brat didn't fumble the ball on the kickoff. Brat has faced his fair share of criticism but it was the players who let down the team, not the coaches. It was Shayne Graham not living up to his contract. It was Jeremi Johnson forgetting to hold onto the ball on a good play call.

WHy would you even call a play giving it to Jeremy Johnson close or in the redzone?

WHy are you calling the same running plays for Scott as you did Benson?

traderumor
11-24-2009, 08:25 AM
:rolleyes:
Maybe we should fire Zimmer too for his poor coaching of the defense that allowed the game tying TD and couldn't get off the field on 4th and 10, not to mention the lack of pressure the entire game.

Bengals lose, fans call for coach heads. In other news, the sun rose in the east this morning.

bucksfan2
11-24-2009, 08:34 AM
WHy would you even call a play giving it to Jeremy Johnson close or in the redzone?

WHy are you calling the same running plays for Scott as you did Benson?

They have in the past and it worked well. The play was good for 5-6 yards if JJ held onto the ball. Anytime you can get 5-6 yards on 1st down in the red zone, that is a good thing. JJ is a professional FB, you should expect that he can hold onto the ball.

DTCromer
11-24-2009, 08:37 AM
:rolleyes:
Maybe we should fire Zimmer too for his poor coaching of the defense that allowed the game tying TD and couldn't get off the field on 4th and 10, not to mention the lack of pressure the entire game.

Bengals lose, fans call for coach heads. In other news, the sun rose in the east this morning.

To be fair, most Bengals fans have been calling for Brat's head for like 3-4 years now.

How anyone can blame Zimmer is beyond me. The team is 7-3 this year because of their defense. They're not to blame for ANY of their losses this year IMO.

Hoosier Red
11-24-2009, 08:54 AM
Is it just me or does anyone else think that Shayne Graham no longer qualifies as a "top kicker"? He is very inconsistent on kickoffs, his range now seems limited to 45 yards and in, and he is the "franchise player". He is due another raise after the season, I would just as soon see him walk.

Agreed. I think it was the correct decision to designate him as the Franchise player this past year but I have no interest in extending him beyond this year.

DTCromer
11-24-2009, 09:45 AM
He was crossed off the "top kicker" list when he missed the FG in regulation vs the Steelers in 2006.

traderumor
11-24-2009, 10:40 AM
To be fair, most Bengals fans have been calling for Brat's head for like 3-4 years now.

How anyone can blame Zimmer is beyond me. The team is 7-3 this year because of their defense. They're not to blame for ANY of their losses this year IMO.First, please note the sarcasm in my comment about Zimmer. Second, to be fair, the complaints about any coach or FO personnel (even Mike Brown) have been few and far between this season----except in the losses. Then, suddenly the coaches are idiots and can't teach the guys not to false start or to keep from fumbling, or even how to avoid a tipped ball at the end of a game by keeping a safety back. It's ludicrous.

The Operator
11-24-2009, 04:06 PM
The offense has been inconsistent and poorly coached for years now. The play calling has always been questionable, even in wins at times.

I don't think it's ludicrous to expect better.

Eric_the_Red
11-24-2009, 04:11 PM
^ Yep. I think often the team wins in spite of Bratkowski, not because of him.

TeamSelig
11-24-2009, 04:29 PM
How about giving Carson Palmer some creative control, ala Peyton Manning.

traderumor
11-24-2009, 06:28 PM
The offense has been inconsistent and poorly coached for years now. The play calling has always been questionable, even in wins at times.

I don't think it's ludicrous to expect better.The Bengals had one of the most dynamic offenses in the game in 2005 under Brat. The offense has always been the strength of the team during the Brat era. Last year was obviously a team decimated by injuries. I'm not saying he is the best in the league, but I do not think the above complaints contain enough information to make the conclusions you do.

And a fan complaining about "play calling" is about as Monday Morning QBing as one can get. It really is an argument void of meaning.

cincrazy
11-24-2009, 06:45 PM
The Bengals had one of the most dynamic offenses in the game in 2005 under Brat. The offense has always been the strength of the team during the Brat era. Last year was obviously a team decimated by injuries. I'm not saying he is the best in the league, but I do not think the above complaints contain enough information to make the conclusions you do.

And a fan complaining about "play calling" is about as Monday Morning QBing as one can get. It really is an argument void of meaning.

I don't think it's an argument void of meaning at all. ONE year out of the last five, this offense has met its potential. One. It didn't play consistently in 2006 or 2007, and it's not doing so this year (I won't count last year, with Palmer being hurt).

I'm not calling for Brat's head based off the results of one game. But I am saying that this team needs an upgrade. The best teams never settle, and if we're settling on Bob Bratkowski as our long term offensive coordinator... well, expect more of the same.

Mario-Rijo
11-24-2009, 07:00 PM
The offense has been inconsistent and poorly coached for years now. The play calling has always been questionable, even in wins at times.

I don't think it's ludicrous to expect better.

How very true. I do like some things about Brat but if your looking for an ideal fit as offensive co-ordinator to turn a team into a consistent winner it's not him (at least not up to the start of this season). His offenses have always been long on big play ability and short on moving the chains type of success. And a feast or famine type of approach is sometimes what you need in certain matchups but is rarely a wise philosophical approach due to the amount of time your defense generally spends on the field as a result.

Of course that isn't what occured in this game but generally speaking that's been Brats MO. This year Brat has done a better job of meshing the offense to a unit which controls the clock and makes big plays when neccessary. If he can keep himself under control he could be an asset because he would prove his versatility in being able to play whatever style is neccessary to win any particular kind of game given the right players/execution. There was a time I would have canned him but I'm not sure it's wise now. Let's see how the season plays out now before we decide he's the wrong guy for the job going forward.

That said what you are seeing is the Houshmanzadeh effect. He was a guy who was special at working the underneath to intermediate routes and getting open, catching the ball when it was thrown to him. Great attributes for being able to move the ball methodically thru the air. Coles could become that guy but he's just started to get comfortable with the offense & Carson the past few games (remember he had little time with him prior to the opening game). When the defense is trying to keep you from going deep you have to rely more on the short passing game and we just aren't getting it done there for a host of reasons.

The ramifications of not having Housh underneath and Henry over the top has confined us to an area of the field that doesn't lend itself to a consistent moving of the ball. We should improve underneath assuming Coles and Caldwell continue to improve along with Leonard and Foschi all of which are still only 10 games into knowing Carson and how he is seeing/doing things. But Henry's absence will loom larger later in the season if we find no alternative (Galloway).

WMR
11-24-2009, 09:14 PM
Is Brat the reason we lost? No.

Could the Bengals do much better as far as off. coordinator is concerned? Yes.

traderumor
11-24-2009, 10:09 PM
I don't think it's an argument void of meaning at all. ONE year out of the last five, this offense has met its potential. One. It didn't play consistently in 2006 or 2007, and it's not doing so this year (I won't count last year, with Palmer being hurt).

I'm not calling for Brat's head based off the results of one game. But I am saying that this team needs an upgrade. The best teams never settle, and if we're settling on Bob Bratkowski as our long term offensive coordinator... well, expect more of the same.Sorry, but "play calling" is not an argument, which you just demonstrated.

traderumor
11-24-2009, 10:19 PM
Fine, some folks don't like Brat. Whining about it after an upset loss just sounds like sour grapes and scapegoating.

Remember, the post that started his attributed false starts and fumbles to poor coaching, even though the false starts had not been a problem since the first couple of games and fumbles are a part of the game and have not been excessive.

That is what makes this line of discussion so frustrating, seeing folks crawl out of the woodwork to start chirping about their least favorite personnel as the root of all losses. And the worst part it is the shallowness of the criticism, as if that if a fair evaluation of anyone. I would love to see some of you sit in your job evaluations and receive the broad, general, criticisms levied at front office and coaching staff, or even players, and then have them replace you on that basis.

They lost. I can accept that and don't have to start back with fire this coach or upgrade this coach for loss therapy. Apparently some do.

TeamSelig
11-25-2009, 01:05 AM
lol... Just because we lost and want a new O-coordinator doesn't mean we are ticked off and sore losers. Personally, I would have wanted a new coordinator even if Caldwell wouldn't have handed the Raiders an easy win.

1st and 20 and we run an obvious run up the middle play with a "weak" RB

cincrazy
11-25-2009, 08:58 AM
Fine, some folks don't like Brat. Whining about it after an upset loss just sounds like sour grapes and scapegoating.

Remember, the post that started his attributed false starts and fumbles to poor coaching, even though the false starts had not been a problem since the first couple of games and fumbles are a part of the game and have not been excessive.

That is what makes this line of discussion so frustrating, seeing folks crawl out of the woodwork to start chirping about their least favorite personnel as the root of all losses. And the worst part it is the shallowness of the criticism, as if that if a fair evaluation of anyone. I would love to see some of you sit in your job evaluations and receive the broad, general, criticisms levied at front office and coaching staff, or even players, and then have them replace you on that basis.

They lost. I can accept that and don't have to start back with fire this coach or upgrade this coach for loss therapy. Apparently some do.

Your line of thinking here is incredibly off based. It's not a matter of Cincy losing, and me running to the computer to call for Brat's head. I know that may be hard to believe, but it's not the case. I could care less about Sunday's game. You're going to lose some, and Oakland isn't an easy place to play. This team is still going to the playoffs, and it's still over-achieved this year, so I can handle the loss.

But if you really don't feel like we can do better at O-coordinator, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

traderumor
11-25-2009, 09:44 AM
Your line of thinking here is incredibly off based. It's not a matter of Cincy losing, and me running to the computer to call for Brat's head. I know that may be hard to believe, but it's not the case. I could care less about Sunday's game. You're going to lose some, and Oakland isn't an easy place to play. This team is still going to the playoffs, and it's still over-achieved this year, so I can handle the loss.

But if you really don't feel like we can do better at O-coordinator, we'll just have to agree to disagree.I would be happy to read your posts mentioning such a thing after other games this year.

Also, I did not say we could not do better. There is always someone better. There is also merit to "better the devil that you do know." Charlie Weis has been thrown out there as the beginning of this thread, much of it based on his supposed super genius status from time in New England. The beat has gone on in NE since his leaving, so other than name recognition, I sure have not seen any compelling reasons to consider him an upgrade.

Mario-Rijo
11-29-2009, 03:00 AM
Off topic a bit here, but I fully expect to see a much better big play offense this week in small part to the debut of one Andre Smith (I'm guessing). I think he will get some snaps for the 1st time and i'm interested to watch him play.

The Operator
11-29-2009, 04:39 PM
The Bengals won the game today, but I was pretty unhappy with the offensive performance overall.

They ran the ball well, but they were incredibly predictable, the line was awful in the passing game, they committed penalty after penalty and the passing game was nearly non existant.

The Lions put up a boatload of points against that defense.

cincrazy
11-29-2009, 04:52 PM
The Bengals won the game today, but I was pretty unhappy with the offensive performance overall.

They ran the ball well, but they were incredibly predictable, the line was awful in the passing game, they committed penalty after penalty and the passing game was nearly non existant.

The Lions put up a boatload of points against that defense.

Yup. In other words, more of the same.

I'm proud as hell of what this Bengals team has accomplished up this point. But if the offense, the passing game in particular, doesn't figure it out, it's going to be one and done in the playoffs.

traderumor
11-29-2009, 04:59 PM
The Bengals won the game today, but I was pretty unhappy with the offensive performance overall.

They ran the ball well, but they were incredibly predictable, the line was awful in the passing game, they committed penalty after penalty and the passing game was nearly non existant.

The Lions put up a boatload of points against that defense.I hear what you're saying, esp. on the pass protection. However, running the ball down the other team's throat is predictable. I was to the point in the first half where I was upset when they passed the ball because the Browns could not stop the run, even when it was predictable.

It seems like this coaching staff has seen enough track meet games and has decided to play ball control, field position and D football. I am a Buckeyes fan, so this is all familiar territory for me.

The Operator
11-29-2009, 05:00 PM
Yup. In other words, more of the same.

I'm proud as hell of what this Bengals team has accomplished up this point. But if the offense, the passing game in particular, doesn't figure it out, it's going to be one and done in the playoffs.

Exactly.

I do like the philosophy of field position and stout defense, BUT, you have to have a comfortable lead for that to work. The Bengals score 14-16 points and they pretty much call it a day.

I love this running game. I really do. With the way Johnson performed today along with Scott, The Bengals just might have the best running back corps in The NFL as a whole. Maybe not, but it's good. Real good.

That being said, when teams know, without a doubt, you're going to run 95% of the time, it's only so effective. You HAVE to have a respectable passing game or teams are going to stack the box and gear up for the run on every play. It's almost like they've forgotten they have a 2-time Pro Bowl QB, a multiple Pro Bowl receiver, as well as Coles and Caldwell. It's not that they don't have the personnel.

110 yards passing against The Browns is pathetic. Disgraceful even.

The Operator
11-29-2009, 05:02 PM
I hear what you're saying, esp. on the pass protection. However, running the ball down the other team's throat is predictable. I was to the point in the first half where I was upset when they passed the ball because the Browns could not stop the run, even when it was predictable.

It seems like this coaching staff has seen enough track meet games and has decided to play ball control, field position and D football. I am a Buckeyes fan, so this is all familiar territory for me.

I'm a Bucks fan as well, and they frustrate the crap out of me as well. :p:

I do love a stout running game, and there is no doubt The Bengals have one right now. But they just didn't get it done in the red zone and I think a lot of that has to do with the lack of a passing attack. And I just don't get it because they have the tools.

joshnky
11-29-2009, 05:12 PM
The Bengals won the game today, but I was pretty unhappy with the offensive performance overall.

They ran the ball well, but they were incredibly predictable, the line was awful in the passing game, they committed penalty after penalty and the passing game was nearly non existant.

The Lions put up a boatload of points against that defense.

Who cares? They won and ran up huge numbers on the ground. The passing game has another easy week to get things worked out before the Minnesota game.

IMO, it is hard to complain about a game in which you were so dominant on the ground and on defense that you didn't have to pass the ball.

On a side point, overlooking the problems in the passing game, this is a dominant run-blocking offensive line. It appears that while Benson is a good back a lot of his success this year has been due to a great line. If Johnson and Scott can put up those kind of numbers against a defense expecting them to run, I feel confident that the Bengals could put just about anyone back there and run for 100 yards.

cincrazy
11-29-2009, 05:19 PM
Who cares? They won and ran up huge numbers on the ground. The passing game has another easy week to get things worked out before the Minnesota game.

IMO, it is hard to complain about a game in which you were so dominant on the ground and on defense that you didn't have to pass the ball.

On a side point, overlooking the problems in the passing game, this is a dominant run-blocking offensive line. It appears that while Benson is a good back a lot of his success this year has been due to a great line. If Johnson and Scott can put up those kind of numbers against a defense expecting them to run, I feel confident that the Bengals could put just about anyone back there and run for 100 yards.

I agree with your thoughts on the running game.

But I care about the passing attack, very much so. As Operator pointed out, we have a Pro Bowl QB, a great receiver, and other quality receivers... not to mention a run game that is borderline dominant. Yet we can't pass the ball against the Browns?

I'm not panicking, and I'm not saying they won't figure it out. Bill Cowher made a good point (shoot me) by saying that the Bengals might be lucky they haven't peaked yet, despite still winning games.

I KNOW what this passing game is capable of, and I also know that's the one part of this team that's missing right now, and it's frustrating. If that part of our game starts clicking, we're as good as the Colts and the Patriots.

traderumor
11-29-2009, 05:22 PM
Don't forget the Bears game. When conditions are favorable to putting up points with the passing game, they can. The last two weeks, the pass protection has been troubling. That may be a coaching adjustment to the other team's scouting. It has also prevented them from going downfield. Chris Henry effect? Perhaps.

One reason the score was close today is that the Browns dinked and dunked their way to a loss. They kept themselves in the game, but did not take any chances until the last few drives. I'm glad they were happy with a close loss rather than trying to win the game. A few turnovers, and you have a potential blowout.

The good news, no turnovers this week. I am guessing that we had a "holding emphasis" officiating crew this week, which also stalled a few drives.

The Bengals clearly had a gameplan that they were confident would win the game and stuck with it. It worked.

traderumor
11-29-2009, 05:27 PM
I agree with your thoughts on the running game.

But I care about the passing attack, very much so. As Operator pointed out, we have a Pro Bowl QB, a great receiver, and other quality receivers... not to mention a run game that is borderline dominant. Yet we can't pass the ball against the Browns?

I'm not panicking, and I'm not saying they won't figure it out. Bill Cowher made a good point (shoot me) by saying that the Bengals might be lucky they haven't peaked yet, despite still winning games.

I KNOW what this passing game is capable of, and I also know that's the one part of this team that's missing right now, and it's frustrating. If that part of our game starts clicking, we're as good as the Colts and the Patriots.There are ebbs and flows to a season. The passing game is currently out of sync, but that is straightly on the Oline. Like I said, they need to find the adjustment because the league currently has been getting pressure. The good news is, the talent is there if they can just shore up the protection problems.

The Operator
11-29-2009, 05:30 PM
Here's one thing I don't understand.

How can an offensive line look so good in the running game, but so awful on passing plays? That seriously boggles my mind. They look like a completely different unit on passing plays.

Joseph
11-29-2009, 05:37 PM
Here's one thing I don't understand.

How can an offensive line look so good in the running game, but so awful on passing plays? That seriously boggles my mind. They look like a completely different unit on passing plays.

You don't have to hold the blocks as long, just open a hole and get out of the way.

cincrazy
11-29-2009, 05:43 PM
There are ebbs and flows to a season. The passing game is currently out of sync, but that is straightly on the Oline. Like I said, they need to find the adjustment because the league currently has been getting pressure. The good news is, the talent is there if they can just shore up the protection problems.

Agreed completely.

Palmer hasn't had much time to scan the field, instead he's spent a lot of time running up into the pocket trying to avoid getting crushed.

It's certainly correctable. As you said, the talent is there, which is good to know. This team doesn't have a fatal flaw. It has correctable flaws, but not a fatal flaw.

bucksfan2
11-29-2009, 06:23 PM
While the game was completly lackluster it reminded me of how the Steelers used to beat the Bengals. Used to run the ball down their throats, control the clock, and win the game. In all reality if the Bengals turn one of those FG's into a TD the game is 20-7. The biggest issue with this club right now is getting the ball into the endzone.

They did hurt themselves today by penalities. Although Mike Carry is a disgrace to all other NFL officials. I really don't know if there is a worse one out there. To many holding calls that derailed drives.

The Browns just weren't an NFL quality team. In the upcoming games the Bengals need to get the ball into the endzone instead of settling for a FG.

Mario-Rijo
11-29-2009, 10:06 PM
Here's one thing I don't understand.

How can an offensive line look so good in the running game, but so awful on passing plays? That seriously boggles my mind. They look like a completely different unit on passing plays.

Seriously? Plenty of guys are capable of run blocking that aren't great pass blockers. What we currently have are 2 strong run blocking OT's who are a bit limited athletically (Roland moreso than Whitworth). Good athletic feet are required to pass block effectively and neither of them are elite in that area like Willie and Levi in their prime. Whitworth is adequate and Roland is a bit below average. In a nutshell it's athleticism and (speed, quickness, agility) that makes you a better passblocker and strength/leverage that makes you a run blocker. Levi was more a pass blocker, Whitworth and Roland moreso run blockers and Willie could do it all at a high level. Hopefully Andre becomes another Willie he certainly has the talent and skill to be that for us.