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fewfirstchoice
12-07-2009, 03:27 PM
Its the same old story every year. The Reds rivals, Cubs, Cards, Astros, Braves,Dodgers, and so on get better while the Reds either stand pat or get worse. It just gets old being a die hard Reds fan and watching the ownership and front office sit around and do basically bothing year after year. You would think 15 yrs of playoffless baseball would mmake them sing a different tune wouldnt ya. I dont know but its getting old Ill tell ya that much.

mdccclxix
12-07-2009, 03:34 PM
I appreciate your frustration, but the Brewers, Cubs, and Astros can't get out of their own way either. They all regressed last year. The only club to compete with is St. Louis. As long as they have a top 10 all-time player in his prime, it's hard to do.

fewfirstchoice
12-07-2009, 04:03 PM
I know Pujols is the best in the game but the Reds could try and compete with em. We have Votto who isnt at Pujols level but he isnt bad either with some other good quality guys. The Mets just acquired E Jackson for prospects and there farm teams are terrible. The Reds could have went after him. The Reds need a big time run producing LF and there are at least 3 out there but not a peep from the Reds on them. Oh Bob needs to learn if he would spend alittle money and bring a winning team to Cincy the fans would show up. If he would spend the money they would come. But until he spends a little of his green the fans will stay out of the red in GABP.

Vottomatic
12-07-2009, 05:02 PM
Had Votto not missed 30 games, I believe this team wins 85 last year.

Had Tavares gotten injured sooner, I believe this team wins 85 games last year.

Had Rolen been traded for sooner, I believe this team wins 85 games last year.

I'd say be patient, and hope management refuses to let Dusty make out losing lineups next season. Help is on the way. Votto for 160 games, Rolen at 3B, Phillips at 2B, Stubbs in CF with Dickerson, maybe Heisey/Gomes in LF........a healthy 'nother year under his belt Bruce in RF..........

We could be the Pirates, Cubs, Brewers or Astros, ya know? We're actually improving and they're regressing.

Farnsie
12-07-2009, 07:08 PM
Ehm E Jackson hasn't been traded or have I missed something?

mound_patrol
12-07-2009, 07:30 PM
Ehm E Jackson hasn't been traded or have I missed something?

It had been reported earlier today that Edwin had in fact been traded to the Mets. But like many reports, it has been denied and proved to be false.

RoundingThird
12-08-2009, 11:23 AM
Maybe I'm being too optimistic but if we can stay healthy next season and add some depth, I think we can be a factor in the NL Central in 2010.

BigRed
12-08-2009, 11:36 AM
I think that they need to add a few pieces with the biggest need being shortstop to be competitive and a veteran starter. However, even if we spend the money to add a thumper for LF, we still can't beat the Cardinals. I actually think that Walt has it right. Let's see if the younger players that we have can develop into something special. The Reds have a good young nucleus and more help on the way in Frazier, Alonso, Heisey etc. The Reds are smaller market and cannot compete by spending lots of money. They have to be smarter and develop from within to be successful and sustain it.

Red in Atl
12-08-2009, 01:00 PM
If we just move Phillips to SS, put Frazier at 2nd and Heisey/Francisco in Left with Stubbs and Dickerson in Center, Bruce in Right, Rolen, Votto, Hernandez/Hanigan at Catcher, we have the best young team in baseball. I don't even think we need Gomes.

He deserves to start anyway, but since we have the Cordero and Tavares contracts Gomes could be passed over for the kids. We must DFA Taveras. Trade Cordero if possible, but I still think that with the money we save on position and bench players because of their age, we keep the excess in the bullpen.

I'm exicited about next year, and I think we have improved from within. Makes me not want to waste our resources on average, overpaid guys. A team like the Reds has to have a great farm system, and keep putting out young guys who can do the job. It's the only way to compete.

Vottomatic
12-08-2009, 01:17 PM
I think that they need to add a few pieces with the biggest need being shortstop to be competitive and a veteran starter. However, even if we spend the money to add a thumper for LF, we still can't beat the Cardinals. I actually think that Walt has it right. Let's see if the younger players that we have can develop into something special. The Reds have a good young nucleus and more help on the way in Frazier, Alonso, Heisey etc. The Reds are smaller market and cannot compete by spending lots of money. They have to be smarter and develop from within to be successful and sustain it.

We played the Cards tough all season. I'm not sure how many we won, but I'm willing to bet we split the series with them. We match up well with them.

KiefMoon
12-08-2009, 01:47 PM
Once again can someone provide some proof that we need a SS?? Please? Can someone look up the ages of the main components on this team and then look at the ages of the Machine, maybe do a little homework, contrast and compare.
Stop relying on the Sabremetrics stupidity?

Seriously you guys realize that the Reds of 09 are in the same boat as the Reds of 68? I guess they should've just traded Rose and Perez, given up on this kid named Bench and what the hell why bother signing any of these young latin kids like Concepcion.

The truth is the future of this team relies on you the fans to step up, stop *****ing and commit to buying tickets. The current ownership is not Chuck Finley, Bob is not going to just pocket lumps of cash, he's a business man he understands there is a time to invest and a time to hold the line. If you buy tickets they will build it

Oh and we were 6-7 against the "mighty" Cardinals

bounty37h
12-08-2009, 03:11 PM
^Are you Bob or Bobs wife?
So Kief, by your theory, if McDonalds has sucked for years now, that means patrons need to buy more McDonalds so they will improve, or does McDonalds need to improve the food to bring back the old customers as well as make new ones?
Granted, I feel the Reds are getting closer to being competetive, but Reds fans have followed crappy teams for many years now, so its not a new pent up frustration all of a suden. They have been buying tix and merchandise for years for crappy teams, at some point the team has to be accountable. Stop blaming the fans.

Vottomatic
12-08-2009, 05:05 PM
Once again can someone provide some proof that we need a SS?? Please? Can someone look up the ages of the main components on this team and then look at the ages of the Machine, maybe do a little homework, contrast and compare.
Stop relying on the Sabremetrics stupidity?

Seriously you guys realize that the Reds of 09 are in the same boat as the Reds of 68? I guess they should've just traded Rose and Perez, given up on this kid named Bench and what the hell why bother signing any of these young latin kids like Concepcion.

The truth is the future of this team relies on you the fans to step up, stop *****ing and commit to buying tickets. The current ownership is not Chuck Finley, Bob is not going to just pocket lumps of cash, he's a business man he understands there is a time to invest and a time to hold the line. If you buy tickets they will build it

Oh and we were 6-7 against the "mighty" Cardinals

You should never tell fans to buy tickets. You should tell management to provide a commodity that is worth buying tickets to go see.

My Dad was a lifelong GM car buyer. He would never buy anything BUT General Motors cars. In the 1980's, GM's cars began to suck big time. He had two engines go out before 50,000 miles in GM cars. Then he had transmission problems and all kinds of other problems. He came to believe GM wasn't what they used to be. It bothered him to change, but he finally turned his back on GM because they were putting out a bad product and he wasn't going to reward them anymore with his loyalty when they weren't loyal to him by putting out a good product.

Then he bought a Toyota in around 1988. Car lasted forever. He then bought me a company truck........a Toyota. It lasted forever. Then when he bought his first luxury car, it was an Infiniti. He did buy my mom an Aurora from GM, a few years back, and it has held up nicely. He slowly is coming back to GM.

This story is reminiscent of many former GM buyers who got ripped off with bad cars in the 80's. Many Americans were loyal GM and Ford buyers, never wanting to buy a foreign car. But the bad product made them change their mind.

Until the Reds put a good product on the field, nobody is expected to buy tickets. It doesn't work that way. We don't buy tickets to help them field a good team............they field a good team and then we buy tickets. You don't reward mediocrity............(I digress) unless your the BCS (college football). You send a message by not buying tickets. If you continue to show up for a bad product, they have no reason to put a good product on the field.

mound_patrol
12-08-2009, 06:03 PM
You should never tell fans to buy tickets. You should tell management to provide a commodity that is worth buying tickets to go see.

My Dad was a lifelong GM car buyer. He would never buy anything BUT General Motors cars. In the 1980's, GM's cars began to suck big time. He had two engines go out before 50,000 miles in GM cars. Then he had transmission problems and all kinds of other problems. He came to believe GM wasn't what they used to be. It bothered him to change, but he finally turned his back on GM because they were putting out a bad product and he wasn't going to reward them anymore with his loyalty when they weren't loyal to him by putting out a good product.

Then he bought a Toyota in around 1988. Car lasted forever. He then bought me a company truck........a Toyota. It lasted forever. Then when he bought his first luxury car, it was an Infiniti. He did buy my mom an Aurora from GM, a few years back, and it has held up nicely. He slowly is coming back to GM.

This story is reminiscent of many former GM buyers who got ripped off with bad cars in the 80's. Many Americans were loyal GM and Ford buyers, never wanting to buy a foreign car. But the bad product made them change their mind.

Until the Reds put a good product on the field, nobody is expected to buy tickets. It doesn't work that way. We don't buy tickets to help them field a good team............they field a good team and then we buy tickets. You don't reward mediocrity............(I digress) unless your the BCS (college football). You send a message by not buying tickets. If you continue to show up for a bad product, they have no reason to put a good product on the field.

Good post. Give us a reason to buy tickets and we will come. Until then, I'll make one or two trips to Cincinnati a year and that's it.

RedLakerFan24
12-08-2009, 09:33 PM
Just Sign Dye for LF, Move Phillips to SS, Bring Up Frazier to play 2B,

1. Drew Stubbs
2. Brandon Phillips
3. Joey Votto
4. Jermaine Dye
5. Scott Rolen
6. Jay Bruce
7. Todd Frazier
8. Ramon Hernandez

Vottomatic
12-08-2009, 11:34 PM
Just Sign Dye for LF, Move Phillips to SS, Bring Up Frazier to play 2B,

1. Drew Stubbs
2. Brandon Phillips
3. Joey Votto
4. Jermaine Dye
5. Scott Rolen
6. Jay Bruce
7. Todd Frazier
8. Ramon Hernandez

I'd just as well have Heisey (RH)/Francisco (LH) in LF.
I'd be happy with Phillips at SS.
I'd be happy to see what Frazier could do at 2B.

I just don't see anyone on the market that I think will do better than these guys in our farm system.

markymark69
12-09-2009, 12:09 AM
I've posed this question before as far as the moves the Reds make or don't make. If they don't make a move then we all get upset because they are standing pat. But, if they make a move, then it's he's bad, that's too much money for him? Or We gave up too much for him (i.e. Zach Drysdale er Stewart for Scott Rolen).

The second we trade away a young guy with talent or an established guy (which are our only trade chips) this board would go postal.

I think it was proven last year that Reds fans don't want a youth movement or maybe I only imagined empty seats at GABP, but yet this board does not want to part with our young talent in order to get established players to go for it.

I guess my question is --- which way does this board want the Reds to go? (Not that they'll listen). Before you answer and say sign this guy and sign that guy, remember that is isn't go to happen. And if it did, it wouldn't take very many posts to get back to we paid too much for that guy and he's no good or and it's the whole thing over again.

Vottomatic
12-09-2009, 09:10 AM
Management works hard to revamp the farm system. Farm system has produced Votto, Cueto, Bruce, Dickerson, Stubbs, Hanigan, Bailey on the major league club.

If the farm system has produced the above list, and there are guys in the minors posting outstanding numbers, such as Heisey. Why shouldn't we believe there are more players to come from the minors???

Looks to me like the farm system is solid and producing very well. Travis Wood? Maloney? Leake? Heisey? Francisco? Cozart? Frazier? We could darn near field all position players from our minors and it would probably be competitive.

I'm with the "be patient" crowd. Besides, management isn't going to spend any more money anyway. We really have no choice.

mattfeet
12-09-2009, 09:16 AM
Management works hard to revamp the farm system. Farm system has produced Votto, Cueto, Bruce, Dickerson, Stubbs, Hanigan, Bailey on the major league club.

If the farm system has produced the above list, and there are guys in the minors posting outstanding numbers, such as Heisey. Why shouldn't we believe there are more players to come from the minors???

Looks to me like the farm system is solid and producing very well. Travis Wood? Maloney? Leake? Heisey? Francisco? Cozart? Frazier? We could darn near field all position players from our minors and it would probably be competitive.

I'm with the "be patient" crowd. Besides, management isn't going to spend any more money anyway. We really have no choice.

Agreed 110%. The problem is the media, IMO. The 6 o' clock news is never going to come up with, "And just promoted from the AAA club in Louisville is a young Chris Heisey. He's an outstanding ball player and everyone should be really super stoked that he's now playing for the MLB team." Yea, won't happen. The news eats up trades/FA signings, but when a team relies on their farm system that is (up to, and including now) unproven in the eyes of the public, there is going to be little to get excited about save for us few "fans" that actually follow all facets of the club.

-Matt

mound_patrol
12-09-2009, 09:31 AM
Management works hard to revamp the farm system. Farm system has produced Votto, Cueto, Bruce, Dickerson, Stubbs, Hanigan, Bailey on the major league club.

If the farm system has produced the above list, and there are guys in the minors posting outstanding numbers, such as Heisey. Why shouldn't we believe there are more players to come from the minors???

Looks to me like the farm system is solid and producing very well. Travis Wood? Maloney? Leake? Heisey? Francisco? Cozart? Frazier? We could darn near field all position players from our minors and it would probably be competitive.

I'm with the "be patient" crowd. Besides, management isn't going to spend any more money anyway. We really have no choice.

I agree patience is important with this team, but the issue is that we are only a few players away from really being contenders in the NL Central. In the minors we have a lot of guys who are on the cusp of the major leagues, but many of them do not or will not have an open spot to break into the lineup. (ex. Valaika/Frazier for 2B/3B or Francisco/Heisey in LF or even Alonso for 1B/LF) The Reds have some excess parts that they could trade away to fill a hole like SS, and now is the time to do that. The question is if the Reds can make the right decisions and trade away the right players.

Vottomatic
12-09-2009, 11:05 AM
I agree patience is important with this team, but the issue is that we are only a few players away from really being contenders in the NL Central. In the minors we have a lot of guys who are on the cusp of the major leagues, but many of them do not or will not have an open spot to break into the lineup. (ex. Valaika/Frazier for 2B/3B or Francisco/Heisey in LF or even Alonso for 1B/LF) The Reds have some excess parts that they could trade away to fill a hole like SS, and now is the time to do that. The question is if the Reds can make the right decisions and trade away the right players.

Cozart is projected to be a year or two away. I believe Reyes is only signed through '10 or '11. So is Harang. Why not swap? Reds are looking to save a little money anyway.

My ONLY hesitation in trading Harang is he is a quality person with quality charitable organizations that do alot for the community. Guys like that are good leaders in my book. If his e.r.a. were over 5.00, then maybe I'd surely dump him. But at times, he can be pretty good. I don't think he's worth $12M. Maybe $9 or $10M.

Nobody knows the future as to whether or not Volquez will make it back and be the same as he was. Cueto is still young and should be approaching his breakout years. Bailey really came on in the second half........hopefully he picks up where he left off. Arroyo seemed to finally focus on baseball in the second half. I really think he could do a full season of that if he focused only on baseball. Now the question is, do you trade Harang? Can you get by with a Maloney or Lehr.........is Travis Wood ready? How long will it take Mike Leake to get through the minors? Beckham, #1 pick last year, made it the majors fast.

I'm actually really excited about our farm system. It's the best I've seen it since probably the Big Red Machine.

will5979
12-09-2009, 06:34 PM
I'm actually really excited about our farm system. It's the best I've seen it since probably the Big Red Machine.


You realize what you just said didn't you!? Now if this bunch don't give multiple postseason appearances, MVPs, and a few World Titles in the upcming decade people are going to call you out on that one! Hope you're right FWIW.

fugowitribe
12-09-2009, 11:52 PM
I am a 21 year old Reds fan.....Do you know how hard that is? I am tired of this lack luster team year in and year out. Those that predicted the late season "Hot Streak" would be a bad thing for the Reds, hit the nail on the head. We see them look decent (at best) once they are 20 games out of first and all of a sudden optimism gets the best of us and we "take our chances" on the guys we have. It is like losing the lottery 11 times in a row. You know who we are like....The damn Cleveland Browns. We sit back and can't produce anything worth keeping (Except Joey V) then we make the blockbuster deal (Griffey) and then we cry the injury bug got us. Every team gets hurt, every team has difficulties, but not every team goes 11 years without a glimpse of the playoffs. Hell, I wouldn't care if they were interesting in September....JUST GIVE US SOMETHING......I AM TIRED OF NEXT YEAR!

Vottomatic
12-10-2009, 09:20 AM
I am a 21 year old Reds fan.....Do you know how hard that is? I am tired of this lack luster team year in and year out. Those that predicted the late season "Hot Streak" would be a bad thing for the Reds, hit the nail on the head. We see them look decent (at best) once they are 20 games out of first and all of a sudden optimism gets the best of us and we "take our chances" on the guys we have. It is like losing the lottery 11 times in a row. You know who we are like....The damn Cleveland Browns. We sit back and can't produce anything worth keeping (Except Joey V) then we make the blockbuster deal (Griffey) and then we cry the injury bug got us. Every team gets hurt, every team has difficulties, but not every team goes 11 years without a glimpse of the playoffs. Hell, I wouldn't care if they were interesting in September....JUST GIVE US SOMETHING......I AM TIRED OF NEXT YEAR!

Injury bug did get us. Look at each position:

1B - Joey missed like 30 games due to depression. He's our best player. We were contending before he went down.
2B - Phillips amazingly played the entire season but had a broken hand for most of it. I give him props.
SS - Alex Gonzalez was injured most of the time he was with us and then ended up with Boston.
3B - Before Scott Rolen, we were counting on EE, who was injured nearly the whole season with us before being traded to Toronto.

That's 3 infield positions missing significant playing time.

RF - Jay Bruce went down for 2 months with a broken wrist. He was leading us in HR's at the time, although his batting average suffered.
C - Ramon Hernandez went down the last couple of months with knee problems. He was a key component of when we were contending. Even Hanigan wore down at the end.
CF - Tavares was injured to the point his only asset, stealing, we hindered. But it was a blessing in disguise that he got hurt, cause we got to see Stubbs. Dickerson was injured the last part of the season too.
Others - Laynce Nix had a chronic back ailment which limited him at times.
P - Volquez went down for the season fairly early. Harang had appendicitus late in the season. Cueto wore down because he played in the WBC in the offseason. Bray and Burton had injury problems. Mike Lincoln went down.

Other factors:
Dusty's non-fascination with On Base Percentage leads to Tavares and Janish batting at the top of the order. Go figure. That hurt us too.

Bengals have had problems in recent years because of the injury bug. Look at them this year. The key players are staying healthy and the backups are getting it done.

Reds next year:
C - if they platoon Hanigan and Hernandez equally, I would think both could stay healthy and fairly rested.
1B - no reason to think Joey will have depression problems again. Clearly related to the close timeframe of his father's death.
2B - Phillips showed himself as an iron man last season, playing hurt. No reason to think he won't do it again.
SS - this is a question mark to begin the season. Looks like management is content to go with defense here and take what they get offensively.
3B - Rolen is an upgrade offensively and defensively over EE, and the team flourished with him in the lineup.
LF - plenty of options. Re-sign Gomes? Heisey? Francisco?
CF - Stubbs? Dickerson? Tavares is even still here.
RF - Bruce? Balentein? Heisey?

SP - Arroyo, Harang, Cueto, Bailey, Lehr, Maloney, Wood
RP - Cordero, Masset, Herrera, Rhodes, Owings, Viola, Burton, Bray, others

I'm not even worried about the outfield. We have an abundance of options. The only thing that could mess it up is Dusty hanging too long with the non-hot hand.

This team may not have posted a winning record or contended last year, but we learned alot about their future in terms of guys coming up and playing and guys in the minors doing well. This team is on the right track. This is setting up to be a surprise season as guys enter their third year of the majors (Votto, Bruce, Cueto) and others are ready to emerge from the minors. Patience young grasshopper.

In 1989, the Reds were bitten badly by the injury bug. They played their triple A farm club roster for most of the season. In 1990, the team starters stayed healthy, and the experience the backups got the previous season paid huge dividends.

We might repeat that this upcoming season. :thumbup:

will5979
12-10-2009, 09:36 AM
Injury bug did get us. Look at each position:

1B - Joey missed like 30 games due to depression. He's our best player. We were contending before he went down.
2B - Phillips amazingly played the entire season but had a broken hand for most of it. I give him props.
SS - Alex Gonzalez was injured most of the time he was with us and then ended up with Boston.
3B - Before Scott Rolen, we were counting on EE, who was injured nearly the whole season with us before being traded to Toronto.

That's 3 infield positions missing significant playing time.

RF - Jay Bruce went down for 2 months with a broken wrist. He was leading us in HR's at the time, although his batting average suffered.
C - Ramon Hernandez went down the last couple of months with knee problems. He was a key component of when we were contending. Even Hanigan wore down at the end.
CF - Tavares was injured to the point his only asset, stealing, we hindered. But it was a blessing in disguise that he got hurt, cause we got to see Stubbs. Dickerson was injured the last part of the season too.
Others - Laynce Nix had a chronic back ailment which limited him at times.
P - Volquez went down for the season fairly early. Harang had appendicitus late in the season. Cueto wore down because he played in the WBC in the offseason. Bray and Burton had injury problems. Mike Lincoln went down.

Other factors:
Dusty's non-fascination with On Base Percentage leads to Tavares and Janish batting at the top of the order. Go figure. That hurt us too.

Bengals have had problems in recent years because of the injury bug. Look at them this year. The key players are staying healthy and the backups are getting it done.

Reds next year:
C - if they platoon Hanigan and Hernandez equally, I would think both could stay healthy and fairly rested.
1B - no reason to think Joey will have depression problems again. Clearly related to the close timeframe of his father's death.
2B - Phillips showed himself as an iron man last season, playing hurt. No reason to think he won't do it again.
SS - this is a question mark to begin the season. Looks like management is content to go with defense here and take what they get offensively.
3B - Rolen is an upgrade offensively and defensively over EE, and the team flourished with him in the lineup.
LF - plenty of options. Re-sign Gomes? Heisey? Francisco?
CF - Stubbs? Dickerson? Tavares is even still here.
RF - Bruce? Balentein? Heisey?

SP - Arroyo, Harang, Cueto, Bailey, Lehr, Maloney, Wood
RP - Cordero, Masset, Herrera, Rhodes, Owings, Viola, Burton, Bray, others

I'm not even worried about the outfield. We have an abundance of options. The only thing that could mess it up is Dusty hanging too long with the non-hot hand.

This team may not have posted a winning record or contended last year, but we learned alot about their future in terms of guys coming up and playing and guys in the minors doing well. This team is on the right track. This is setting up to be a surprise season as guys enter their third year of the majors (Votto, Bruce, Cueto) and others are ready to emerge from the minors. Patience young grasshopper.

In 1989, the Reds were bitten badly by the injury bug. They played their triple A farm club roster for most of the season. In 1990, the team starters stayed healthy, and the experience the backups got the previous season paid huge dividends.

We might repeat that this upcoming season. :thumbup:

In 1990 though we had 2 things that we won't have in 2010...

1. A great manager
2. A team captain. We currently lack a Barry Larkin and ever since he retired NO ONE is jumping at the chance to become the Reds captain. This team has sucked major @$$ since he retired. His clubhouse presence was huge and a big factor in the Reds success oft he 1990s.

I do see some similarities though...

Joey Votto=Hal Morris with POWER! Dangerous combo
Brandon Phillips=Barry Larkin's D and bat, maybe needs to step in a be the leader that Lark was
Drew Stubbs=Eric Davis, give him a full season, not saying he'll put up 30/30 numbers but I like this kid
Rolen=Sabo a lot alike
Bruce=Paul O'Neil, at least the Reds version of Paul O'Neil anyways!

2010 bullpen=Nasty Boys, not as good but we can all sleep easier at night knowing a 6 inning lead will more than likely be a W

fugowitribe
12-10-2009, 10:18 AM
^^^^^ And what about the ten years before last year?
-You mean to tell me that the Cardinals didn't get hurt last year.
They at one point didn't have the MVP of the league nor their leading Cy Young candidate. The injury bug excuse was used when Griffey went down every other day.
Good teams create depth. We are not a good team. I hope and pray that this patience is gonna pay off, but it is really frusturating thinking that the one game playoff we had with the Mets is the highlight of my tenure as a Reds fan.

Vottomatic
12-10-2009, 12:36 PM
In 1990 though we had 2 things that we won't have in 2010...

1. A great manager
2. A team captain. We currently lack a Barry Larkin and ever since he retired NO ONE is jumping at the chance to become the Reds captain. This team has sucked major @$$ since he retired. His clubhouse presence was huge and a big factor in the Reds success oft he 1990s.

I do see some similarities though...

Joey Votto=Hal Morris with POWER! Dangerous combo
Brandon Phillips=Barry Larkin's D and bat, maybe needs to step in a be the leader that Lark was
Drew Stubbs=Eric Davis, give him a full season, not saying he'll put up 30/30 numbers but I like this kid
Rolen=Sabo a lot alike
Bruce=Paul O'Neil, at least the Reds version of Paul O'Neil anyways!

2010 bullpen=Nasty Boys, not as good but we can all sleep easier at night knowing a 6 inning lead will more than likely be a W

I agree with #1. Dusty may certainly hold this team back.

This team has better position player talent. That team had the best bullpen in baseball, Jose Rijo, and a good manager.

markymark69
12-10-2009, 02:42 PM
^^^^^ And what about the ten years before last year?
-You mean to tell me that the Cardinals didn't get hurt last year.
They at one point didn't have the MVP of the league nor their leading Cy Young candidate. The injury bug excuse was used when Griffey went down every other day.
Good teams create depth. We are not a good team. I hope and pray that this patience is gonna pay off, but it is really frusturating thinking that the one game playoff we had with the Mets is the highlight of my tenure as a Reds fan.

Fugo,
You might want to check some facts about the Cardinals. Pujols played in 160 games last year and had 568 at-bats. Carpenter made 28 starts and threw nearly 200 innings. Wainwright made 34 starts and threw 233 innings. They were not hurt ---- not last year.

Contrast with Votto (Reds best player, but not in same league with Pujols) played in 29 less games than Pujols and had almost 100 less at-bats. Volquez, the Reds best pitcher (17 wins) the year before made a grand total of nine starts with only 49 2/3 innings this year. Huge difference.

KiefMoon
12-12-2009, 07:05 AM
1. Am I Bob or his wife? No, Im a true fan whos father took him to Riverfront Stadium as a child and told me the legendary stories of what the franchise was. FWIW Im 31, my fathers 62. Hes seen the powerful teams of the 50's, he saw the promise of the 60's, he was at every home LCS, WS game since 1970. He saw the glory. he saw 1982. You wanna ***** about being 21 and never seeing any kind of title? Talk to my old man kid, you got nothing on him, no matter how frustrated you are. 2. Ive asked this question 3 times and no one has given an answer, why do they need to spend money to replace Janish? Do u know your history? Have you compared his numbers to Concepcion? No? maybe you should, bc his offensive and defensive numbers are better through his first 150 some games. Given the consensus opinion of people here the Reds should have **** canned Davey the same way people want them to do with Paul. A HUGE MISTAKE

texasdave
12-12-2009, 11:39 AM
Paul Janish is fine at SS. What limited funds this team has to improve the club can be better spent elsewhere. There are numerous examples of SS glove wizards who couldn't hit a lick at first but improved to the point that their offense was at an acceptable level.

Vottomatic
12-12-2009, 05:36 PM
This team isn't going to do anything in the offseason.

We're going to war with what we have. Get used to it. But everyone would stay healthy, we could probably compete well.

texasdave
12-12-2009, 06:17 PM
The Reds non-tendered Johnny Gomes. I don't think that really matters all that much since the Reds can still resign him.

Tender Date / Non-tender

Major League clubs must offer contracts to players on its roster by December 12. In general, an offer may not be less than 80% of the player’s salary and performance bonuses the previous year or less than 70% of his salary and performance bonuses from two years earlier.

If a club has no interest in keeping a particular player, the club may choose to non-tender him, or to not offer him a contract. A player generally becomes a candidate to be non-tendered when he is arbitration-eligible and his club determines he is not worth the salary he might command in arbitration. A player who is non-tendered becomes a free agent and may sign with any of the 30 Major League clubs, including his former team, at any price.

KiefMoon
12-12-2009, 09:06 PM
The biggest problem with Janish is where Dusty bats him. And the news on Gomes is pretty depressing but like I said when fans won't step up and put some faith and cash behind the owner why the hell should he sign him?

The full blame of 9 years of losing cant all be put on Bob, if fans support the team he will reinvest, how much clearer can that be? In the Selignomics of baseball teams like Cincinnati will stay forever in limbo unless people are going to support the team. The Phillies are a perfect example as I said before without the fan support they wouldn't have traded for Lee. Amaro said that himself.

Vottomatic
12-13-2009, 12:01 PM
The biggest problem with Janish is where Dusty bats him. And the news on Gomes is pretty depressing but like I said when fans won't step up and put some faith and cash behind the owner why the hell should he sign him?

The full blame of 9 years of losing cant all be put on Bob, if fans support the team he will reinvest, how much clearer can that be? In the Selignomics of baseball teams like Cincinnati will stay forever in limbo unless people are going to support the team. The Phillies are a perfect example as I said before without the fan support they wouldn't have traded for Lee. Amaro said that himself.

:confused: :rolleyes:

Please stop blaming the fans. Blaming me. I have no control over the roster or game management.

Dracodave
12-13-2009, 05:09 PM
The biggest problem with Janish is where Dusty bats him. And the news on Gomes is pretty depressing but like I said when fans won't step up and put some faith and cash behind the owner why the hell should he sign him?

The full blame of 9 years of losing cant all be put on Bob, if fans support the team he will reinvest, how much clearer can that be? In the Selignomics of baseball teams like Cincinnati will stay forever in limbo unless people are going to support the team. The Phillies are a perfect example as I said before without the fan support they wouldn't have traded for Lee. Amaro said that himself.


If the phillies wanted to win, which they do to bring in more fans, they would have gotten Lee either way. You can tell the GM was playing to the moves that they do to PLEASE fans and to obtain fans.

The Reds management do neither of these moves and the fans understand that. Where did they try to trade for big name players and come up short? We trade our players the second they get good and start asking for equal pay. I'll be surprised if Votto doesn't price himself out of the Reds budget if he continues to produce the way he does.

In order to put a winning team on the field, the money they spend has to be spent wisely and isn't. We wasted money keeping Taveras while letting Gomes walk, is that wise? The Reds havent been getting better because other teams are using the budget to maintain a scouting department that allows them to trade players for big name stars while still having the talent influx to allow them to keep the players or replace them when the time comes.

We do not have a system that is allowing us to do this, despite having some very good minor leaguers ready. You can argue ad nuseum that the fans are behind the Reds failures to produce any the talent to keep them in a division race but I can argue that the front office of the Marlins continues to trade for talented young players while having minimial fans at all.

Cincinnati Fan Average:
Game Average : 25,415
Season Average : 2,058,632
NL Average : 2,755,082

Florida Marlins Fan Average :
Game Average : 16,688
Season Average : 1,335,075
NL Average : 2,755,082

Florida's Record : 87-75
Cincinnatis Record : 78-84

Yet Florida seems to understand when to trade their stars for the best possible return despite not having the fan support (atleast at the ballpark) that the Reds do.

Please dont blame the fans for the failures of a front office long before Bob showed up.

Old NDN
12-13-2009, 08:06 PM
This team isn't going to do anything in the offseason.

We're going to war with what we have. Get used to it. But everyone would stay healthy, we could probably compete well.

Oh, they may pick over the reclamation projects, DFA's, and rejects. That's what they've done for the last several (losing) years. And the results will probably be the same. By the time comes when all these kids, or projected minor league stars make it, the pitching will be gone, or too expensive to keep. And the cycle continues: Build for a future that never comes.

mlh1981
12-16-2009, 10:31 AM
I'm sure we will all be drinking the spring training koolaid and be super jacked for opening day. That's the way it seems to be. We buy into false hope and "hope spring eternal."

It's just so sad,because you see the potential for a real love fest in Cincinnati between city and team (like it used to be), and management just can't capitalize on that.

GIDP
12-16-2009, 12:08 PM
I'm sure we will all be drinking the spring training koolaid and be super jacked for opening day. That's the way it seems to be. We buy into false hope and "hope spring eternal."

It's just so sad,because you see the potential for a real love fest in Cincinnati between city and team (like it used to be), and management just can't capitalize on that.

I buy into its baseball. I'm to a point unless they are in 1st or close to 1st going into the last month of the season I expect little to nothing.

Vottomatic
12-16-2009, 04:51 PM
Well, you have to admit that health has alot to do with it and they were massively injured all of last season. If they stay healthy, I think they contend.

mroby85
12-16-2009, 04:59 PM
Shouldn't the Reds be good before they get the support? Isn't that usually the way it works? The Reds get more than they deserve from their fans.

Dracodave
12-16-2009, 11:45 PM
Shouldn't the Reds be good before they get the support? Isn't that usually the way it works? The Reds get more than they deserve from their fans.


Say it ain't so
Your drug is a heartbreaker.
Say it ain't so
My love is a life-taker.