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mdccclxix
12-08-2009, 08:47 PM
Ah, well, the Reds have got next to nothing going on at the Winter Meetings this year. I figured we could help them out by insisting on our own well hatched ideas.

When the Reds miss the playoffs next year, they'll have only themselves to blame if they don't visit this thread.

In the vein of prying loose a SS let's try:

Harang + 6 million + Cozart + Janish + Francisco + Ondrusek

For

Elvis Andrus 21 y/o SS

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Don't know if I like that one, just trying to land Andrus, who appears to be Janish and Cozart's ceilings mashed together. Take the 6 mil savings and pickup a FA SP and Jamie Carrol.

More dirt later. Time to watch XU.

Vottomatic
12-08-2009, 10:26 PM
Harang ($12M) + Alonso ($1M) + Janish + Dorn

For

SS Jose Reyes (Mets) - turns 27 next June, averaged 155 games per season over 4 seasons before a fluke injury this season, but did return at end of season, 301 careeer stolen bases, .337 career OBP, .286 career average, makes $9M in '10.

Reds save $4M in deal, get their SS and improve offense, leadoff hitting, speed on basepaths (Reyes averaged 64 SB's in 4 healthy consecutive seasons), etc. Dorn is the odd man out in the OF. He is getting older and eventually will end up rule 5 anyway. Janish gives them a SS for now. Alonso has no place to play with Votto ahead of him, and Mets need a first baseman as theirs is old (Delgado - turns 38 in June and is no longer under contract). Mets need pitching as 3 of their starters ended season on DL. Harang is a workhorse.

roby
12-08-2009, 11:15 PM
Harang ($12M) + Alonso ($1M) + Janish + Dorn

For

SS Jose Reyes (Mets) - turns 27 next June, averaged 155 games per season over 4 seasons before a fluke injury this season, but did return at end of season, 301 careeer stolen bases, .337 career OBP, .286 career average, makes $9M in '10.

Reds save $4M in deal, get their SS and improve offense, leadoff hitting, speed on basepaths (Reyes averaged 64 SB's in 4 healthy consecutive seasons), etc. Dorn is the odd man out in the OF. He is getting older and eventually will end up rule 5 anyway. Janish gives them a SS for now. Alonso has no place to play with Votto ahead of him, and Mets need a first baseman as theirs is old (Delgado - turns 38 in June and is no longer under contract). Mets need pitching as 3 of their starters ended season on DL. Harang is a workhorse.

How close is Mike Leake or Travis Wood to being ready for the starting rotation? Maybe a combo the first year?

ED44
12-08-2009, 11:26 PM
With the Angels interested in Bay, that would probably leave Rivera the odd man out.

How about CoCo for Izturis & Rivera? Massett slides to the closers role...we get a SS & a LF. I'm sure there would be a little more that would be added, but it would fill 2 need areas.

RedLakerFan24
12-09-2009, 02:50 AM
Harang to the Mets for Salary Relief
Juan Francisco + Matt Moloney + Chris Hiesey + Pedro Viola for Andy Sonnastine ( my spelling is probaly wrong) and Reid Brignac
Sign Jermaine Dye to a 2 yr 15 mil

1. Stubbs
2. Phillips
3. Votto
4. Dye
5. Rolen
6. Bruce
7. Hernandez
8. Brigac

1. Bronson Arroyo
2. Johnny Cueto
3. Homer Bailey
4. Andy Sonnastine
5. Micah Owings/Edison Volquez ( heard he is making great progress and could return by the all star break)

Vottomatic
12-09-2009, 08:06 AM
Harang to the Mets for Salary Relief
Juan Francisco + Matt Moloney + Chris Hiesey + Pedro Viola for Andy Sonnastine ( my spelling is probaly wrong) and Reid Brignac
Sign Jermaine Dye to a 2 yr 15 mil

1. Stubbs
2. Phillips
3. Votto
4. Dye
5. Rolen
6. Bruce
7. Hernandez
8. Brigac

1. Bronson Arroyo
2. Johnny Cueto
3. Homer Bailey
4. Andy Sonnastine
5. Micah Owings/Edison Volquez ( heard he is making great progress and could return by the all star break)

You see......I don't like it. You're trading away guys who have value to the Reds.

I traded Harang because of his salary and his numbers are average anymore. Alonso has no place to go with the Reds because he only plays 1B (Votto), yet he is a former #1 pick who is producing in the minors. If we trade for a SS, then Janish is dispensable, and we still have Cozart in the wings. Finally, Danny Dorn is the "odd man out" outfielder with Stubbs, Bruce, Heisey, Dickerson, Balentien ahead of him. He is getting older and soon will be rule 5 material. Everyone I traded was dispensable based on salary or players ahead of them.

I don't want to see Francisco or Heisey traded. For that matter, even Maloney traded.

urdun
12-09-2009, 09:15 AM
Alot of merit in some of these ideas. Don't see one I'd offer but some are close. Harang to the Mets seems like a good fit, except he also finished the year on the DL which could make NY hesitant. Harang for Reyes is something that has crossed my mind but I guess I don't see NY parting with him when push comes to shove. Likewise with Andrus although if we actually offered all that Texas would have to be crazy not to accept it.

Willy Taveras, Danny Dorn & Mike Lincoln to KC for David DeJesus. If they don't bite just accept Juan Cruz instead.

Vottomatic
12-09-2009, 09:58 AM
Alot of merit in some of these ideas. Don't see one I'd offer but some are close. Harang to the Mets seems like a good fit, except he also finished the year on the DL which could make NY hesitant. Harang for Reyes is something that has crossed my mind but I guess I don't see NY parting with him when push comes to shove. Likewise with Andrus although if we actually offered all that Texas would have to be crazy not to accept it.

Willy Taveras, Danny Dorn & Mike Lincoln to KC for David DeJesus. If they don't bite just accept Juan Cruz instead.

It's not like Harang had arm or shoulder problems. He had appendicitus, didn't he?

urdun
12-09-2009, 10:01 AM
It's not like Harang had arm or shoulder problems. He had appendicitus, didn't he?

True.

Vottomatic
12-09-2009, 10:06 AM
.....and Reyes came back from injury at the end of the season and played. So he should be healed.

Farnsie
12-09-2009, 10:16 AM
[QUOTE=RedLakerFan24;2000087]Harang to the Mets for Salary Relief
Juan Francisco + Matt Moloney + Chris Hiesey + Pedro Viola for Andy Sonnastine ( my spelling is probaly wrong) and Reid Brignac
Sign Jermaine Dye to a 2 yr 15 mil

I wouldn't be satisfied with that trade since it seems a lot. Andy Sonnanstine stinks so let's say it's him for Viola. That leaves Maloney, Heisey and Francisco for Brignac. I'm not so sure I'd do that.

Alpha Zero
12-09-2009, 11:02 AM
Why does everyone seem to think Harang is garbage? Harang finished the season with a better ERA than Cueto, Volquez, Bailey, Maloney, and Owings. Of the guys who started regularly, only Arroyo posted a lower ERA than Harang.

I mean, if the Reds absolutely have to cut salary at this very moment, then I guess dealing Harang for peanuts right now makes sense. On the other hand, Harang pitched very well during the first half last year and could easily do the same again this year. If the Reds aren't in contention at that point, I think that you can get a lot better return for the big guy when the receiving team is only paying the prorated portion of his contract.

That's just my take. I guess I just don't see the value in dealing away a workhorse-type pitcher, probably paying part of his salary just for someone to take him, and receiving a worthless B-level prospect in return (at best). I think he can still provide the Reds with some value.

mdccclxix
12-09-2009, 12:55 PM
Harang ($12M) + Alonso ($1M) + Janish + Dorn

For

SS Jose Reyes (Mets) - turns 27 next June, averaged 155 games per season over 4 seasons before a fluke injury this season, but did return at end of season, 301 careeer stolen bases, .337 career OBP, .286 career average, makes $9M in '10.

Reds save $4M in deal, get their SS and improve offense, leadoff hitting, speed on basepaths (Reyes averaged 64 SB's in 4 healthy consecutive seasons), etc. Dorn is the odd man out in the OF. He is getting older and eventually will end up rule 5 anyway. Janish gives them a SS for now. Alonso has no place to play with Votto ahead of him, and Mets need a first baseman as theirs is old (Delgado - turns 38 in June and is no longer under contract). Mets need pitching as 3 of their starters ended season on DL. Harang is a workhorse.

I like the idea, Reyes has 2-3 years left of peak performance. How much does he cost a year? I do think they'd ask for more than Alonso, perhaps some cash for Harang.

mdccclxix
12-09-2009, 12:56 PM
How close is Mike Leake or Travis Wood to being ready for the starting rotation? Maybe a combo the first year?

Wood is very close. Leake may be ready now, but we'll have to wait. AA is where he starts.

mdccclxix
12-09-2009, 01:01 PM
[QUOTE=RedLakerFan24;2000087]Harang to the Mets for Salary Relief
Juan Francisco + Matt Moloney + Chris Hiesey + Pedro Viola for Andy Sonnastine ( my spelling is probaly wrong) and Reid Brignac
Sign Jermaine Dye to a 2 yr 15 mil

I wouldn't be satisfied with that trade since it seems a lot. Andy Sonnanstine stinks so let's say it's him for Viola. That leaves Maloney, Heisey and Francisco for Brignac. I'm not so sure I'd do that.

Brignac is perhaps over-rated, as many SS prospects are. But I think Andrus is the real deal. Lakerfan, if you upgraded the pitcher in the deal, it might work though.

mdccclxix
12-09-2009, 01:44 PM
Another idea based on this from MLBtraderumors:

"Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports says the Tigers have interest in Juan Pierre, and are "looking for a third team to supply the pitcher L.A. needs." Odd, since the Tigers have more bad pitching contracts than anyone. The Tigers apparently prefer to unload Carlos Guillen. "

Pierre to Det
Guillen to Cincinnati
Harang and cash to LA

as a start...perhaps

mdccclxix
12-09-2009, 06:02 PM
Real trade news:
Millwood to the O's + 3 million to cover 1/4 of the 12 million he's owed. In return, Texas gets Chris Ray - a reliever with injury history.

The market seems to have been set for this kind of deal for Arroyo/Harang/Cordero.

I like what Texas did there because now it looks like they're signing Harden for 7 million plus incentives reaching 11 or 12 million.

If it were a video game, I'd be doing the same thing, but getting Sheets instead. Huge risk really, so I don't know if the Reds should do this. Texas isn't much better when it comes to their rotation, however...hmmm, headscratcher.

BEETTLEBUG
12-09-2009, 08:36 PM
Would anybody do a Harang & cash for Carlos Guillen and where would he play?

mdccclxix
12-09-2009, 09:23 PM
Would anybody do a Harang & cash for Carlos Guillen and where would he play?

I would if there was money available, but if you're sending cash and adding 12 mil it wouldn't work. He could perhaps play some SS, but definitely LF.

mdccclxix
12-09-2009, 09:53 PM
Interesting comp for the Rolen trade developing with Lowell to the Rangers:


8:18pm: Ed Price of AOL FanHouse hears "some word" that the possible deal is heating up. ESPNBoston's Gordon Edes says the Red Sox would have to eat "a ton" of Lowell's salary.

8:03pm: Alex Speier of WEEI.com hears that the Red Sox will have to pick up most of Lowell's salary for a deal to go down. Texas would use Lowell at first, third and DH.

5:36pm: The Rangers and Red Sox are discussing a deal that would send Mike Lowell to Texas, according to Rob Bradford of WEEI.com. The trade is "possible, but not close," according to Bradford's source. It's possible that catcher Max Ramirez would come to Boston in exchange for Lowell. Joe McDonald of the Providence Journal echoes Bradford's report.

Lowell is set to earn $12MM next year, his last season before free agency. Theo Epstein says he doesn't expect to make a blockbuster deal before the meetings end, but a Lowell trade probably wouldn't qualify.

Since 2002 Rolen has been worth 39.4 WAR and Lowell 25.5 WAR. Rolen is coming of a 3.8 WAR 2009 and Lowell 1.2 WAR in 2009. So, Rolen's the better player, but Texas is expecting one free Lowell for Max Ramirez, a very nice C prospect.

mdccclxix
12-10-2009, 02:26 PM
Interesting comp for the Rolen trade developing with Lowell to the Rangers:



Since 2002 Rolen has been worth 39.4 WAR and Lowell 25.5 WAR. Rolen is coming of a 3.8 WAR 2009 and Lowell 1.2 WAR in 2009. So, Rolen's the better player, but Texas is expecting one free Lowell for Max Ramirez, a very nice C prospect.

So as of right now it looks like Lowell + 9 million = Max Ramirez (#84 in BA's Top 100 2009) C who hits for nice average and can maybe help right away...

I'd have to think Harang / Arroyo / Cordero adding in 8-9 million would bring a nice prospect in the top 75-100 range. Perhaps Brignac (the only near ready SS in that range) would work after all. The 2-4 million in savings would help cover the arb raises this year as well.

I'm also in favor of downgrading the prospect (one that could still make the team), paying closer to 4-5 million, and using the money in FA to sign a veteran pitcher with upside - like Sheets.

Here is Jocketty on a potential trade this weekend, via CTR:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RdrhnfQx2A

RedLakerFan24
12-10-2009, 04:48 PM
What about Willy T and Mike Lincoln for Edgar Renteria? I Feel Cozart is a year away and Edgar is only a one year player for us, he could hit better than Janish, he is a good hitter who had a crappy year last year and could have a good year this year, he hitting second behind Stubbs would work

mdccclxix
12-10-2009, 09:50 PM
What about Willy T and Mike Lincoln for Edgar Renteria? I Feel Cozart is a year away and Edgar is only a one year player for us, he could hit better than Janish, he is a good hitter who had a crappy year last year and could have a good year this year, he hitting second behind Stubbs would work

Is LA looking to off-load his contract? You might have to add another prospect to get them to eat the 2 bad contracts coming from the Reds.

TC81190
12-10-2009, 11:51 PM
Is LA looking to off-load his contract? You might have to add another prospect to get them to eat the 2 bad contracts coming from the Reds.
I don't think we could dump both contracts, but I like that idea as a bad contract swap that could potentially pay off. You would probably have to kick in a decent prospect to make it happen though, since Renteria may still potentially be productive, and there's little to no chance of Taveras or Lincoln being very productive.