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Chip R
12-12-2009, 02:34 PM
again.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=4735336

vottofan4life
12-12-2009, 03:18 PM
It needs to be Notre Dame

Chip R
12-12-2009, 03:25 PM
It needs to be Notre Dame

Won't happen.

paintmered
12-12-2009, 03:27 PM
It needs to be Notre Dame

The Big 10 can have them. They're a leech on the Big East.

The school that fits the Big 11 mold the best out there is Missouri. Iowa State would be a decent fit as well IMO. Either school would improve the overall quality of the Big 11 in both football or basketball without disrupting the overall balance of power in the conference.

Chip R
12-12-2009, 03:43 PM
The Big 10 can have them. They're a leech on the Big East.

The school that fits the Big 11 mold the best out there is Missouri. Iowa State would be a decent fit as well IMO. Either school would improve the overall quality of the Big 11 in both football or basketball without disrupting the overall balance of power in the conference.


I'm fairly sure Iowa would balk about ISU joining the Big 10. Missouri would be interesting and has been on the wish list for a while. That would get that St. Louis market in there. But I'm thinking that if they have offered it to Mizzou before and they didn't bolt, they won't now.

DTCromer
12-12-2009, 03:58 PM
Pitt or Mizzou would fit best.

Pitt would be the most logical choice from both sides.

Rutgers is in the mix too.

ochre
12-12-2009, 04:15 PM
Evidently, any school added needs to have highly rated graduate programs and be a strong research institute.

As much as strength in the requisite sports, this is what the school presidents are looking for.

KronoRed
12-12-2009, 04:26 PM
Must be time for another raiding of the Big East, one stop shopping for conference expansion.

Hoosier Red
12-12-2009, 04:45 PM
It has to be Missouri or maybe Iowa State. Anyone else and we can't also steal the Big 12's name.

KoryMac5
12-12-2009, 04:56 PM
I don't think TCU or Boise St. fit the mold, my money is on Pitt as they would have a natural rivalry with Penn State.

I just don't see Boise or TCU being asked as their other programs aren't that strong.

paintmered
12-12-2009, 04:58 PM
I don't see any way Penn State allows Pitt into the Big 10.

KoryMac5
12-12-2009, 05:03 PM
I think the Pitt basketball program would be very much against leaving as the Big East basketball conference is a huge money maker for the school.

Paterno has been on board with this for awhile and though many assume he has a grudge against Pitt he recommended the Big Ten look at them for expansion.


``Let’s get a 12th team -- Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt -- we could have a little bit of a playoff.’’

It would be nice to have a Big 10 Championship game as I am sure it would get great ratings.

joshnky
12-12-2009, 05:12 PM
I don't see any way Penn State allows Pitt into the Big 10.

I think it is actually the opposite. Penn St has been pushing for Pitt to join for a while.

And, while Notre Dame irritates people because they're allowed to be independent in football (and take UC's coach) losing them would be a huge hit on every sport except men's basketball.

If the Big East does lose a school, they're in big trouble football-wise. They already struggle to maintain credibility nationally with an 8 team conference and that will be even more difficult if they replace Pitt or Rutgers with a school like Memphis.

macro
12-12-2009, 05:56 PM
Integrating the "11" into this logo was a stroke of genius. It would be a shame to see it done away with, not to mention impossible to force a "12" into a new logo. :cool:

http://rushthecourt.net/mag/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/big-10-logo.jpg

Buckeye33
12-12-2009, 06:17 PM
I believe they b10 needs to go to a 12th team and I would want Pitt, then Missouri, then Syracuse. I don't think Syracuse would ever want to leave the BigEast as far as basketball went but ..

Then have it broke into North and South

North:

1. Michigan
2. Michigan St.
3. Minnesota
4. Iowa
5. Wisconsin
6. Northwestern

South:

1. Ohio State
2. Penn St.
3. Indiana
4. Illinois
5. Purdue
6. Pitt or Missouri

Caveat Emperor
12-12-2009, 06:25 PM
Mizzou and Iowa State are clearly the best fits, IMO.

I don't see why people say Pitt -- they're a metro school and would end up in a league full of land-grant universities. Plus, Pitt's natural rival (WVU) is in the Big East.

Handofdeath
12-12-2009, 07:26 PM
Yes, Mizzou might be a good fit as well as many other teams. But, say Mizzou leaves the Big 12 who replaces them? The Big 12 better have Arkansas or TCU on deck if that happens.

joshnky
12-12-2009, 07:32 PM
Yes, Mizzou might be a good fit as well as many other teams. But, say Mizzou leaves the Big 12 who replaces them? The Big 12 better have Arkansas or TCU on deck if that happens.

I hope its Missouri because the musical chairs could be extremely interested. If Missouri goes to the Big Ten, then Arkansas to the Big 12, then _______ to the SEC, then .....

Likely, nothing happens but that could be a major shake up that could impact every BCS conference except the Pac10.

Caveat Emperor
12-12-2009, 07:36 PM
I'm hoping the Big East is proactive this go-around and makes some targets to get ahead of the proverbial storm. Like most good ideas, though, I'd expect the basketball schools to whine and undermine any efforts to get more football involved.

Inevitably, the BE is going to have to split off the football schools from the hoops schools.

joshnky
12-12-2009, 07:42 PM
I'm hoping the Big East is proactive this go-around and makes some targets to get ahead of the proverbial storm. Like most good ideas, though, I'd expect the basketball schools to whine and undermine any efforts to get more football involved.

Inevitably, the BE is going to have to split off the football schools from the hoops schools.

The situation in the Big East is so precarious (too-big basketball and too-small football) that it is only a matter of time before they get raided again and the whole thing dissolves. Maybe we can start up the Metro again?

Caveat Emperor
12-12-2009, 08:06 PM
The situation in the Big East is so precarious (too-big basketball and too-small football) that it is only a matter of time before they get raided again and the whole thing dissolves. Maybe we can start up the Metro again?

Agreed. The time is now for the football-playing Big East members to start planning for the next decade. They won't get any more schools admitted as it stands, due to the already gigantic size of the basketball conference and the reluctance of the basketball schools to give up the current balance-of-power (8 hoops-only, 8 football).

If I'm the Big East football schools, I split now. Offer to lay some cash on the basketball side of things to keep the Big East name, and then target some schools to try and expand to 12 teams.

Handofdeath
12-12-2009, 08:36 PM
1. Pitt
2. Cincinnati
3. West Virginia
4. Louisville
5. Temple

I think all of those these teams would be at least a decent choice.

KoryMac5
12-12-2009, 09:06 PM
Mizzou and Iowa State are clearly the best fits, IMO.

I don't see why people say Pitt -- they're a metro school and would end up in a league full of land-grant universities. Plus, Pitt's natural rival (WVU) is in the Big East.

I don't see how you figure Pitt's natural rival is WV. Pitt's football program has always felt like Penn State's little brother. WV is more like a distant cousin. You get Pitt in the Big Ten and those games with PSU would be a bloodbath.

dabvu2498
12-12-2009, 09:09 PM
Nobody is leaving the SEC anytime soon. Not with the new ESPN contract. Consider that Vanderbilt receives more money in broadcast fees than Notre Dame as a result of that contract. Or so I have been told.

WVRed
12-13-2009, 12:23 AM
I don't see how you figure Pitt's natural rival is WV. Pitt's football program has always felt like Penn State's little brother. WV is more like a distant cousin. You get Pitt in the Big Ten and those games with PSU would be a bloodbath.

It's an hour and a half one way from Pittsburgh to Morgantown, therefore the backyard brawl.

KoryMac5
12-13-2009, 12:46 AM
It's an hour and a half one way from Pittsburgh to Morgantown, therefore the backyard brawl.

I will grant that although Pitt is 30 miles closer to WV than PSU, the bad blood exists more with the Pennsylvania schools than with West Virginia. Pitt and PSU have been battling for years for the same recruits, and Paterno hasn't always been kind to Pitt. Most PSU fans look down on Pitt and I am sure they don't think much of our program either. I have to think the Big Ten would press hard for Pitt as they are pretty close to WV, PSU, and OSU. Plus PSU is the only eastern school in the Big Ten.

jmcclain19
12-13-2009, 01:03 AM
I find it telling that despite almost playing for the NC this year, only one poster on this Cincinnati Board even bothered to mention the Bearcats as belonging in the Big 10.

Everyone is basing this off geography, which is a mistake. Boston College being poached by the the ACC proved that Geography can have little to do with new teams while access to TV Markets can make a huge difference.

That being said, I'd put money on it being Rutgers. Gives Big Ten the NYC TV market, and Rutgers is up and coming football power in a potentially huge market who has spent a ton of money recently on new digs and new facilities. Those don't pay for themselves.

Danny Serafini
12-13-2009, 01:42 AM
If there's a 12th team (and I really hope there isn't) it's going to come from the east. Penn St. has been begging for years to get another eastern team in so they have someone nearby, and there are more big TV markets to be had out east than going west.

One school that's been tossed out multiple times on this thread that makes no sense to me is Iowa St. They play in a minuscule market, and competitively they would be a bottom feeder. To paraphrase Rick Pitino when he was with the Celtics, Marcus Fizer is not walking through that door. I'm feel very confident saying the 12th team won't be Iowa St.

GAC
12-13-2009, 06:33 AM
No way ND ever gives up their independent status. Why restrict themselves to a conference when there is so much money involved from their standpoint? As well as their "arrangement" with the BCS...

http://www.collegefootballpoll.com/bcs_explained.html

Under the new BCS arrangement Notre Dame will be guaranteed one of the at-large slots in a BCS bowl if it is ranked No. 8 or better in the final BCS Standings. It is also guaranteed annual payment for its participation in the BCS. In those seasons in which the Irish play in a BCS game, the school will receive $4.5 million (an amount equivalent that received by a conference that places a second team in a BCS bowl). In those seasons in which Notre Dame does not play in a BCS game, it is projected to be paid $1.3 million for its participation in the BCS arrangement.

I like Missouri; but I don't see them leaving the Big 12 for the B10. Will never happen.

IMO, any team that is invited will not come from trying to rob one of the "established" conferences; but like a conference such as the Big East. And I don't say that as a slight on the BE either, only that they are the "younger" conference when it comes to football (est 1991), are still trying to gain respect and establish themselves (and doing a solid job mind you), and they seem to be the likely candidate.

And... it's not simply about football and basketball; but a school offering a cross-range and diversity of both men and women's sports that would be compatible with the B10.

It's ironic because Penn State, prior to joining the B10, applied for BE membership and was rejected. Would PSU oppose a Pitt from joining the B10? Or even an OSU, if it were the Bearcats?

Maybe. But we've got two teams from Indiana in the B10.

But I like any of the following....

Cincinnati, Pitt, or West Virginia.

LoganBuck
12-13-2009, 06:55 AM
I saw one clown split the conference up like this. That seems fair.

East
Ohio State
Michigan
Penn State
Michigan State
Purdue
Indiana

West
Illinois
Northwestern
Minnesota
Wisconsin
Iowa
Missouri

Chip R
12-13-2009, 10:17 AM
If there's a 12th team (and I really hope there isn't) it's going to come from the east. Penn St. has been begging for years to get another eastern team in so they have someone nearby, and there are more big TV markets to be had out east than going west.

One school that's been tossed out multiple times on this thread that makes no sense to me is Iowa St. They play in a minuscule market, and competitively they would be a bottom feeder. To paraphrase Rick Pitino when he was with the Celtics, Marcus Fizer is not walking through that door. I'm feel very confident saying the 12th team won't be Iowa St.


I could see it being Pitt. PSU is OK with it if JoePa is to be believed so that is a huge obstacle. They can still play WVU non conference every year.

As far as ISU goes, as a former Iowan, I always thought that ISU to the Big 10 was just silly talk. I don't know if they have veto power but I think the University of Iowa would veto that idea. It's not really a good fit since ISU has more of an emphasis in agricultural, veterinary medicine and engineering. There's no law school there and the only medical degree you can get there is a doctor of veterinary medicine degree. Believe me, they are looking for more things than just athletics when they are trying to get a 12th team. And don't forget, they have been in the Big 12 since it was the Big 6. There's a lot of tradition there.

I still have problems believing that any of the teams mentioned will join. I think the western schools mentioned like TCU and Boise St. are ridiculous suggestions. It's more than just football and basketball. It's tennis and golf and swimming and soccer and volleyball and even wrestling. Penn St. is isolated enough as it is, how do you think they are going to like going out to Boise for a soccer game with budgets being cut the way they have been? Would they go after any of the MAC schools? I'm thinking maybe Miami or Ohio U.

dsmith421
12-13-2009, 10:45 AM
Don't rule out Syracuse.

westofyou
12-13-2009, 11:31 AM
I find it telling that despite almost playing for the NC this year, only one poster on this Cincinnati Board even bothered to mention the Bearcats as belonging in the Big 10.
.

Because they don't

KoryMac5
12-13-2009, 12:55 PM
Don't rule out Syracuse.

Coach Boheim would have a fit if you moved Syracuse out of the Big East. He has a lot of pull with the admin. I honestly don't see a team from the Big East moving as the revenues from basketball are huge for these schools. Would the football revenue from the Big Ten offset what would be lost from basketball.

Notre Dame would be a perfect fit as they don't belong to a conference, however they continue to maintain that beloning to a conference would hurt there recruiting as they like to recruit all four corners of the states.

I wonder if we will ever get to a point where individual sports programs from schools will have different conference affiliation.

Unassisted
12-13-2009, 02:17 PM
I like Rutgers because they hail from the largest TV market and they wouldn't upset the balance of power in men's basketball or football. They've been mentioned in the past, but were left out of this article.

In general I believe the direction the conference needs to expand is east, toward the coastal population centers, not west.

RBA
12-13-2009, 03:39 PM
University of Phoenix?

KronoRed
12-13-2009, 04:39 PM
Chip makes a good point, Iowa St and Missouri have been in the Big 8/12 since the 20's, makes much more sense to raid the big east again for a Pitt or Rutgers, Syracuse probably stays put.

Javy Pornstache
12-13-2009, 04:42 PM
I hope its Missouri because the musical chairs could be extremely interested. If Missouri goes to the Big Ten, then Arkansas to the Big 12, then _______ to the SEC, then .....

Likely, nothing happens but that could be a major shake up that could impact every BCS conference except the Pac10.

Highly unlikely Arkansas, or any school, would be leaving the SEC. The story I had always heard was if the Big Ten got Missouri or Iowa State (for years, the two most likely to go in this scenario), the Big 12 would make a strong push for Arizona, and then the Pac-10 would try to grab someone to replace 'Zona. TCU would likely be the best fit football-wise, but Pac-10 would probably like to have as high a profile as possible basketball-wise to replace Arizona in such a scenario.

All that said, I still think a push for an eastern team makes more sense as well, they want to add a bigger population center/TV market and will "settle" for St. Louis if an eastern couldn't be met.

Reds4Life
12-13-2009, 04:51 PM
Coach Boheim would have a fit if you moved Syracuse out of the Big East. He has a lot of pull with the admin. I honestly don't see a team from the Big East moving as the revenues from basketball are huge for these schools. Would the football revenue from the Big Ten offset what would be lost from basketball.

Notre Dame would be a perfect fit as they don't belong to a conference, however they continue to maintain that beloning to a conference would hurt there recruiting as they like to recruit all four corners of the states.

I wonder if we will ever get to a point where individual sports programs from schools will have different conference affiliation.

Yup, no chance it's Syracuse, the Big East is a cash cow when it comes to basketball.

People whine about Big East football, the reality is the conference exists for basketball. They make a fortune on that side of it. The problem is they have painted themselves into a corner. They can't add anymore teams to improve the football side of things because the basketball portion of the Big East is already too big.

They could start by booting out Notre Dame. :D

KoryMac5
12-13-2009, 04:59 PM
Sounds more and more like they will ask ND first and move on to Rutgers as plan B. It maks sense as the Big Ten wants to get into the NY TV market. More and more kids are coming out of NYC to play big time college football so this will help recruiting efforts for these teams.

11larkin11
12-13-2009, 05:09 PM
Highly unlikely Arkansas, or any school, would be leaving the SEC. The story I had always heard was if the Big Ten got Missouri or Iowa State (for years, the two most likely to go in this scenario), the Big 12 would make a strong push for Arizona, and then the Pac-10 would try to grab someone to replace 'Zona. TCU would likely be the best fit football-wise, but Pac-10 would probably like to have as high a profile as possible basketball-wise to replace Arizona in such a scenario.

All that said, I still think a push for an eastern team makes more sense as well, they want to add a bigger population center/TV market and will "settle" for St. Louis if an eastern couldn't be met.

I think the most obvious one that I have heard was Mizzou to the B10 (new name?), Houston to the B12, then an overhaul of the MWC, adding Boise State, Fresno State, and Nevada, and making it a BCS Conference. If the B10 were to add Mizzou, I would see the alignment like this...

East:
Penn State
Ohio State
Michigan
Michigan State
Purdue
Indiana

West:
Missouri
Iowa
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Northwestern
Illinois

Obviously the East would be favored in football matchups with the big 3 there, but Iowa, Missouri, and Wisconsin (Illinois some years) could provide a formidable opponent. The problem with the North/South alignment is that OSU and Michigan would be in different divisions, and that won't happen. That would cause a possible rematch of The Game in the conference championship game, when (if?) Michigan returns to prominence, and that won't happen.

macro
12-13-2009, 06:03 PM
University of Phoenix?

Well, they have their own football stadium, but I don't think they have a basketball arena. Thing is, they spent all of that money on a new football stadium, and have yet to play a game in it. I'm not sure why they even put seats in it, given that their fans would watch the games online rather than in person. Good thing the Cardinals are making use of it.

gilpdawg
12-13-2009, 07:42 PM
Well, they have their own football stadium, but I don't think they have a basketball arena. Thing is, they spent all of that money on a new football stadium, and have yet to play a game in it. I'm not sure why they even put seats in it, given that their fans would watch the games online rather than in person. Good thing the Cardinals are making use of it.
That amused me.

Playadlc
12-14-2009, 02:26 PM
That being said, I'd put money on it being Rutgers. Gives Big Ten the NYC TV market, and Rutgers is up and coming football power in a potentially huge market who has spent a ton of money recently on new digs and new facilities. Those don't pay for themselves.

Rutgers would drag down the average considerably in both football and basketball. If being in the NYC media market is such an advantage, then why has Rutgers sucked for so long in both sports?

Caveat Emperor
12-14-2009, 02:35 PM
Rutgers would drag down the average considerably in both football and basketball. If being in the NYC media market is such an advantage, then why has Rutgers sucked for so long in both sports?

You ever tried to convince someone to move to New Jersey voluntarily?

Chip R
12-14-2009, 02:55 PM
I wonder if we will ever get to a point where individual sports programs from schools will have different conference affiliation.


That's an interesting question. If the Big 10 is thinking about poaching a Big East school, you have to know that the BCS requires a conference to have at least 8 members to be in the BCS. Boy, the Big East would fight that tooth and nail.

Perhaps what the Big 10 should do is just give some school football membership only. Other conferences do it. They really only need another member for football.

Javy Pornstache
12-14-2009, 04:07 PM
That's an interesting question. If the Big 10 is thinking about poaching a Big East school, you have to know that the BCS requires a conference to have at least 8 members to be in the BCS. Boy, the Big East would fight that tooth and nail.

Perhaps what the Big 10 should do is just give some school football membership only. Other conferences do it. They really only need another member for football.

Yeah, the Big East would fight it as hard as they can, and if they did lose Rutgers (or whomever) in this scenario, the Big East would then likely be looking to replace them with someone like an East Carolina or Central Florida to keep that eight-member requirement for the BCS.

Chip R
12-14-2009, 04:49 PM
Yeah, the Big East would fight it as hard as they can, and if they did lose Rutgers (or whomever) in this scenario, the Big East would then likely be looking to replace them with someone like an East Carolina or Central Florida to keep that eight-member requirement for the BCS.


I have a hard time seeing any of the Big East teams leaving for the Big Televen because of the money that hoops brings in.

Caveat Emperor
12-14-2009, 04:53 PM
I have a hard time seeing any of the Big East teams leaving for the Big Televen because of the money that hoops brings in.

But, if you believe what you read, a split in the Big East is pretty much inevitable -- especially if they're reaching out to more football members.

Big East hoops, sans the hoops-only programs, would still be pretty good (UConn, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, WVU, Cincy -- all good programs), but it wouldn't be the superconference and money-machine that it is now.

NJReds
12-14-2009, 04:55 PM
Rutgers ... really? I don't see them as Big 10 material.

How about West Virginia?

Handofdeath
12-14-2009, 06:28 PM
And here's another question, if the Big 10 winds up with 12 teams what use is there of calling themselves the Big 10? They can't call themselves the Big 12 since that name is taken, unless the Big 12 changes their name to the Southwest Conference.

Chip R
12-14-2009, 06:49 PM
And here's another question, if the Big 10 winds up with 12 teams what use is there of calling themselves the Big 10? They can't call themselves the Big 12 since that name is taken, unless the Big 12 changes their name to the Southwest Conference.


What use is it calling themselves the Big 10 when they have 11 teams?

KronoRed
12-14-2009, 07:25 PM
How bout the Big 4x3?

macro
12-14-2009, 07:55 PM
Big 13 minus 1.

paintmered
12-14-2009, 07:58 PM
Bigger than 10?

Newport Red
12-14-2009, 08:01 PM
Big 10 fingers and 2 toes.

Danny Serafini
12-15-2009, 09:57 AM
The Atlantic 10 has 14 schools, the Great West has the New Jersey Institute of Technology as a member, and half the teams in the Southwestern Athletic Conference are in Alabama and Mississippi. I don't think conferences really care about name accuracy any more.

Chip R
12-15-2009, 10:11 AM
The Atlantic 10 has 14 schools, the Great West has the New Jersey Institute of Technology as a member, and half the teams in the Southwestern Athletic Conference are in Alabama and Mississippi. I don't think conferences really care about name accuracy any more.


They probably don't with the smaller conferences but I think it would cause quite a fuss if someone like Rutgers was Big 10 in football and Big East in everything else.

Handofdeath
12-15-2009, 01:03 PM
What use is it calling themselves the Big 10 when they have 11 teams?

Yeah, but at some point these universities should at least give the illusion of being able to count.

Chip R
12-15-2009, 01:34 PM
Yeah, but at some point these universities should at least give the illusion of being able to count.


Maybe that's why their performance in bowl and intersectional games has been so poor over the last several years. ;)

Caseyfan21
12-15-2009, 01:44 PM
http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/12/15/report-big-ten-to-make-expansion-statement-today/

WVRed
12-15-2009, 01:52 PM
Rutgers ... really? I don't see them as Big 10 material.

How about West Virginia?

I'd say the odds of WVU leaving the Big East are as likely as Kentucky leaving the SEC, slim to none. They aren't a charter member, but they are so committed to the conference that I doubt they would ever leave.

I'd say Missouri or Pitt to the Big Ten (might as well just rename it the Midwest Conference). If Missouri goes, then I would much rather see the Big XII take Arkansas. As much as I am a SEC fan, I think Arkansas would fare a LOT better in that conference than Houston. C-USA really isn't much of a conference anymore and I think the Cougars would be slaughtered playing the other Texas schools and Oklahoma on a yearly basis.

The Big East could replace Pitt with East Carolina.

cumberlandreds
12-15-2009, 02:56 PM
How bout the Big 4x3?

How about the Dirty Dozen? ;)

Caveat Emperor
12-15-2009, 03:10 PM
If the B10 is looking to expand in 12-18 months, the Big East needs to be ready with an expansion plan in 6-12 months (even if that means fracturing the basketball/football setup). No sense being caught with your pants down if the B10 is announcing their intentions ahead of time.

Roy Tucker
12-15-2009, 03:21 PM
How bout the Big 4x3?


Big "Ten"

or

Big 0x00A

bucksfan2
12-15-2009, 03:42 PM
If the B10 is looking to expand in 12-18 months, the Big East needs to be ready with an expansion plan in 6-12 months (even if that means fracturing the basketball/football setup). No sense being caught with your pants down if the B10 is announcing their intentions ahead of time.

The Big East is the red headed stepchild to the other large conferences. Its a shame but it is the reality. ACC came in and poached their top teams a few years ago. The Big 10 may come in and poach a team and all the Big East can do is watch. What is sad about this is the Big East is a great basketball conference. The problem with that is basketball doesn't bring in the potential revenue that football does.

Lets take UC as an example. Compare the Big Ten's and Big East's bowl affiliations. You don't think a team like UC would jump at the potential bowl payday associated with the Big Ten. Also consider that the Big Ten does a good job of placing a second team in the BCS at around $12M. Also don't forget about the extra money coming in from the Big 10 network. The Big East and its commissioner did a pretty poor job of securing the best possible bowl affiliations, which hurts the Big East when going up against other power conferences.

Chip R
12-15-2009, 03:45 PM
Big "Ten"

or

Big 0x00A


Big 10 plus 2

Unassisted
12-15-2009, 03:47 PM
Rutgers would drag down the average considerably in both football and basketball. If being in the NYC media market is such an advantage, then why has Rutgers sucked for so long in both sports?Media market's an advantage in the money that it brings to the conference, not a competitive advantage. Ultimately, I predict it will be the deciding factor.

Redsfaithful
12-15-2009, 04:11 PM
Big 10 fans if you could have anyone who would you choose?

I'm guessing the popular choice would be Notre Dame, but I'm not sure as an Ohio State fan I wouldn't rather have West Virginia or Cincinnati.

Unassisted
12-15-2009, 04:17 PM
Big 10 fans if you could have anyone who would you choose?
I'm fine with Rutgers because I don't want the conference to add a school that will seriously challenge the status quo in the revenue sports. The change is about money, so it makes sense to bring in a school that's more mercenary than marauder.

I don't really have a second choice. Most of the other names being tossed around are in smallish media markets or overlapping media markets that do nothing to enhance the conference's TV appeal. Notre Dame would be the exception, but I don't believe they're ready at Notre Dame to make a move like that.

IMO the conference should be renamed the Big Big after the expansion. No other conference will be able to top that name. :D

bucksfan2
12-15-2009, 04:18 PM
Big 10 fans if you could have anyone who would you choose?

I'm guessing the popular choice would be Notre Dame, but I'm not sure as an Ohio State fan I wouldn't rather have West Virginia or Cincinnati.

ND and it wouldn't even be close. They have an athletic department that is very similar to the big boys of OSU, UM, PSU, and MSU. Surprisingly the Big 10 also prides themselves on academics which Notre Dame would also bolster.

I don't UC fits in right now. The athletic facilities, mainly Nippert and the Shoe aren't up to standards. If I had to pick a school not ND it probably would either be Missouri or Louisville. Both have the facilities and also have midwest roots. Although I wonder what the perception of Louisville would be being that it is located in Kentucky.

Hoosier Red
12-15-2009, 04:19 PM
The real problem in trying to consider WVU and UC from an athletic standpoint is that all the other Big 11 schools are the top academic public universities(save Northwestern) and are the top research universities in their states.

When factoring that in, Mizzou and Rutgers are probably the closest fits.

I'd like Missouri ahead of everyone including Notre Dame.

Chip R
12-15-2009, 04:21 PM
Big 10 fans if you could have anyone who would you choose?

I'm guessing the popular choice would be Notre Dame, but I'm not sure as an Ohio State fan I wouldn't rather have West Virginia or Cincinnati.


I think tOSU fans wouldn't want WVU in the conference. They want to be the best in the Big 10 at couch burning. ;)

BuckeyeRed27
12-15-2009, 04:30 PM
Notre Dame would obviously be the best choice, but like others have said pretty unlikely.

Rutgers would be ok, but the conference is really spread out then. It is a long ways from New Jersey to Minnesota.

Missouri makes a lot of sense except they don't add any media markets.

I think Nebraska would be a great add, but there is no chance they are leaving the Big 12.

I'm not a fan of Syracuse being added.

I don't think OSU would sign off on Cincinnati being added and I don't think the Big 10 wants to go south for Louisville.

I know Pitt doesn't exactly fit the mold, but I would be happy with them.

Either Kansas or Kansas State I think would work, but also unlikely to leave the Big 12.

On another board someone threw out Maryland which I think has the same problem with Rutgers in terms of geography, but I would rather add Maryland over Rutgers.

Hoosier Red
12-15-2009, 04:32 PM
Wouldn't Missouri add St. Louis and Kansas City to the Big 10 footprint if they joined?

LoganBuck
12-15-2009, 04:35 PM
Academically Iowa State and Missouri are more like other schools in the BigTen. Rutgers would impose high travel costs on the western schools. Penn State is the only school even remotely close to them.

My preferences in order would be
Missouri
Iowa State
Notre Dame
Louisville
Cincinnati

bucksfan2
12-15-2009, 04:48 PM
Academically Iowa State and Missouri are more like other schools in the BigTen. Rutgers would impose high travel costs on the western schools. Penn State is the only school even remotely close to them.

My preferences in order would be
Missouri
Iowa State
Notre Dame
Louisville
Cincinnati

Don't like Iowa State. I think they would be a Big 10 bottom feeder. I don't think you want to add a school like that. Don't know much about Missouri academically except that they have a very good School of Journalism. They would also attract midwest markets of St Louis and Kansas City. Notre Dame would help the athletics as well as help academically. Remember University of Chicago is still a member of the Big 10 academically because of their focus on academics.

I wonder if Ohio State, mainly the state of Ohio would put up a fight about UC joining the Big 10. I wonder if it would skew the state money away from the other state schools and put it in OSU and UC's pockets. Big 10 = more money = more exposure = more students = less students at the other state universities.

Louisville would be a good athletic choice. I don't know about their academics as well as their association with the south.

If ND and Missouri decline I would be ok with Pitt, another midwest city. Don't want Rutgers or Syracuse. Too much travel and too far east. Could you imagine the women's soccer team from Indiana having to travel to Syracuse?

Revering4Blue
12-15-2009, 06:30 PM
This is a post from another MB. Pure fantasy, but an interesting idea.


I think the big ten should be no more. I would add 3 teams and create the Power 14 Conference.

East:
Ohio State
Penn State
Michigan
Michigan State
WVU
Pitt
Purdue

West:
Iowa
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Indiana
Illinois
Northwestern
Notre Dame

Adding three instead of one would be a major addition. Each team would play the 6 teams from their division. They would be allowed to play 4 nonconference games. And then 2 games on a home-home rotational basis from the other division.


http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/12/15/report-big-ten-to-make-expansion-statement-today/

Revering4Blue
12-15-2009, 06:37 PM
If Missouri goes, then I would much rather see the Big XII take Arkansas. As much as I am a SEC fan, I think Arkansas would fare a LOT better in that conference than Houston.

Not to get too far off-topic. But, If Arkansas were to bolt for the Big XII, could you see the SEC going after Georgia Tech as a replacement?

Playadlc
12-15-2009, 07:04 PM
This is kinda interesting...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/309140-the-perfect-darkhorse-candidate-for-big-ten-expansion-texas

No way this would ever happen, but this is the only team that I heard mentioned that I got excited about.

Heath
12-15-2009, 07:19 PM
I think if they got 12 teams, the East would be stacked.

A North-South would work if they landed Mizzou or Rutgers.

dabvu2498
12-15-2009, 07:24 PM
Not to get too far off-topic. But, If Arkansas were to bolt for the Big XII, could you see the SEC going after Georgia Tech as a replacement? No one is leaving the SEC at least until their recently signed ESPN contract expires.

Redsfaithful
12-15-2009, 07:34 PM
The Texas thing would never happen, but it does bring up the interesting point that the Big 10 Network is a nice draw for recruiting a new school.

Yachtzee
12-15-2009, 08:10 PM
I think that academically any school under consideration is going to have to have strong credentials and that includes graduate programs. I think any school under consideration is going to have to have a highly regarded graduate school, law school and medical school. Looking beyond the obvious choice of Notre Dame, I think Mizzou, Pitt, WVU, UC, Louisville, Syracuse, and of course Texas all fit that bill. I think that puts Iowa State and any MAC Schools (sorry Miami pipedreamers) on the outside looking in. Schools like Rutgers and UConn get mentioned as well, but I don't think they have football programs that could compete in the Big 10 and I don't think the Big 10 is looking to add more football patsies.

I think Texas is intriguing if only because there has been discussion between Texas and the Big 10 before, so it's not as if it's just someone's idle fantasy. Mizzou would probably work. I think another option is to go to 14 by adding Pitt, WVU and a school like ND, Mizzou or Texas.

Caveat Emperor
12-15-2009, 08:52 PM
Incidentally, if the Big 10 does grab Rutgers, and I'm the Big East football members, I'd boot the hoops schools, push all-in and make a power play for Boston College, Maryland, Duke, North Carolina, and either Wake Forest or Memphis.

You'd have far-and-away the premier basketball conference in America to keep Dickie V happy (and get a fat contract from one of the networks), and a football conference that is good enough to maintain AQ status.

You know, while we're playing "fantasy commish" and all. ;)

Donder
12-15-2009, 09:58 PM
This is a post from another MB. Pure fantasy, but an interesting idea.

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/12/15/report-big-ten-to-make-expansion-statement-today/

All the scenarios in which the Big Ten has been divided East/West that I've seen that has IU and Purdue split up has Purdue in the East and IU in the West. Why is this? West Lafayette is farther west than Bloomington (and South Bend for that matter).

To answer the other question, Notre Dame would be far and away my number one choice for the 12th team. My second choice would be Pitt.

WVRed
12-15-2009, 10:01 PM
Not to get too far off-topic. But, If Arkansas were to bolt for the Big XII, could you see the SEC going after Georgia Tech as a replacement?

I could see Georgia Tech possibly given the overall sports package and the Atlanta media market.

The one I would like to see get a look is Memphis. I would be worried with football, but the basketball possibilities are endless. The rivalry with Tennessee would be intensified and it would also create an edge with Kentucky as well. Makes even better sense geographically since Memphis is in the western part of the state and would fit into the SEC West. That and a Memphis media market and a possible NBA arena for the SEC tournament in a centralized location.

Donder
12-15-2009, 10:01 PM
Also, to add to my previous thought, it would be a shame for IU and Purdue to be in separate divisions as it is the conference's premier basketball rivalry (yes, I'll admit to being a Purdue fan).

Scrap Irony
12-16-2009, 12:05 AM
I'm guessing one of the Big East teams would need a serious reason to move and the Big Ten might not have that much pull.

I'm guessing they focus on an A-10 team like Temple.

But Miami (OH) sure would be interesting.

Handofdeath
12-16-2009, 01:45 AM
This is kinda interesting...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/309140-the-perfect-darkhorse-candidate-for-big-ten-expansion-texas

No way this would ever happen, but this is the only team that I heard mentioned that I got excited about.

The only way that would happen is if Oklahoma came with them.

LoganBuck
12-16-2009, 06:50 AM
Don't bag on Iowa State so much. They are an outstanding research institution. Yes they would be a bottom feeder in some sports. But their facilities are good, and when they have had the coaches they win. The currently have the best Wrestling program in the Big 12.

Also keep in mind that all the current members of the Big Ten are members of the Association of American Universities. Which is a prestigious group of 60 research universities.
http://www.aau.edu/

The new member would likely have to come from that group.

dabvu2498
12-16-2009, 07:35 AM
I could see Georgia Tech possibly given the overall sports package and the Atlanta media market. The one I would like to see get a look is Memphis. I would be worried with football, but the basketball possibilities are endless. The rivalry with Tennessee would be intensified and it would also create an edge with Kentucky as well. Makes even better sense geographically since Memphis is in the western part of the state and would fit into the SEC West. That and a Memphis media market and a possible NBA arena for the SEC tournament in a centralized location. Memphis was in the SEC tourney rotation as recently as 1997. An Georgia Tech was in the SEC as recently as the early 60s. I doubt we would see either again anytime soon. Of course, it is a moot point because no one from the SEC is going anywhere.

dabvu2498
12-16-2009, 07:45 AM
I'm guessing one of the Big East teams would need a serious reason to move and the Big Ten might not have that much pull. I'm guessing they focus on an A-10 team like Temple. But Miami (OH) sure would be interesting. A couple years ago, as Miami was doing some facilities upgrades, I was hearing some Big 10 talk in Oxford from some folks "in the know." But that seems like a pipe dream at best. They would still have to spend a boatload of money on personnel and facilities. They need a new arena desperately.

redhawkfish
12-16-2009, 08:10 AM
Come on dabvu! You don't think a poorly lit mausoleum with terrible vantage points for spectators would fit into the Big East. I bet none of their arenas have a beautiful black curtain like Millett Hall!;)

dabvu2498
12-16-2009, 08:59 AM
Come on dabvu! You don't think a poorly lit mausoleum with terrible vantage points for spectators would fit into the Big East. I bet none of their arenas have a beautiful black curtain like Millett Hall!;) I go to 6-8 games over there just about every year and that dump almost never fails to let me down. At least they did upgrade the audio/PA systems so they don't have to play pregame music on those big speakers on the floor anymore. Less than 1500 over there the other night for the Temple game was depressing.

Unassisted
12-16-2009, 10:12 AM
This is kinda interesting...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/309140-the-perfect-darkhorse-candidate-for-big-ten-expansion-texas

No way this would ever happen, but this is the only team that I heard mentioned that I got excited about.That would be loads of fun for us displaced Big Ten fans living in the Lone Star state. But I imagine that having every team travel by air to every one of its league road games would put a big dent in that budget surplus in Austin.

bucksfan2
12-16-2009, 10:45 AM
Saw this in Stewart Mandel's article today. Tell me what universities, especially a school like Pitt, UC, and Missouri, would pass up a payday like this.


The Big Ten does not publicly release revenue-sharing figures, but it's been reported that its rights deals with ABC/ESPN and the Big Ten Network generate about $212 million annually. (That's in addition to the league's direct profits from its jointly owned network.) Add in this season's two BCS berths ($22.3 million) and five other bowl berths (about $14 million), and we're talking a minimally estimated $248.3 million in shared revenue, or $22.6 million per team.

IslandRed
12-16-2009, 10:51 AM
Also, to add to my previous thought, it would be a shame for IU and Purdue to be in separate divisions as it is the conference's premier basketball rivalry (yes, I'll admit to being a Purdue fan).

The divisions are intended to set up a football championship game, but there's nothing that says they have to be used across the board. The ACC and Big 12 don't have divisions for basketball.

Donder
12-16-2009, 11:06 AM
The divisions are intended to set up a football championship game, but there's nothing that says they have to be used across the board. The ACC and Big 12 don't have divisions for basketball.

Gotcha. That makes me feel better.

Chip R
12-16-2009, 11:09 AM
Don't bag on Iowa State so much. They are an outstanding research institution. Yes they would be a bottom feeder in some sports. But their facilities are good, and when they have had the coaches they win. The currently have the best Wrestling program in the Big 12.

Also keep in mind that all the current members of the Big Ten are members of the Association of American Universities. Which is a prestigious group of 60 research universities.
http://www.aau.edu/

The new member would likely have to come from that group.


Iowa St. does some things very, very well. Their fans are very enthusiastic. But, as I said, I think the U of Iowa would veto it - if they can blackball them - plus no medical or law school. I just don't think it's a good match.

LoganBuck
12-16-2009, 12:16 PM
Iowa St. does some things very, very well. Their fans are very enthusiastic. But, as I said, I think the U of Iowa would veto it - if they can blackball them - plus no medical or law school. I just don't think it's a good match.

Why would Iowa have anymore pull to do that than, Ohio State over Cincinnati and Pittsburgh (Ohio State and Pitt have overlapping local recruiting areas), or Purdue and Indiana over Notre Dame?

Chip R
12-16-2009, 12:47 PM
Why would Iowa have anymore pull to do that than, Ohio State over Cincinnati and Pittsburgh (Ohio State and Pitt have overlapping local recruiting areas), or Purdue and Indiana over Notre Dame?


The vote might have to be unanimous, I don't know. JoePa's OK with Pitt so Penn St. might be OK with it too and if anyone else doesn't object. tOSu might not want UC.

bucksfan2
12-16-2009, 01:29 PM
The vote might have to be unanimous, I don't know. JoePa's OK with Pitt so Penn St. might be OK with it too and if anyone else doesn't object. tOSu might not want UC.

I don't think OSU would throw that big of a fit if UC joined the Big 10. I don't want to start a debate, but until UC steals a big time prospect from OSU I don't worry about UC. UC just can't compete with the athletic department and facilities that OSU has.

I think UC would have some obstacles to overcome in order to join the Big Ten. The first would be facilities. They are improving that but I don't think Nippert would cut it. It would have to be a 45K+ seat stadium. They also are located in a metro area, cant really say that about the other schools. OSU is close to Columbus, but it has so much land that it really doesn't matter.

Caveat Emperor
12-16-2009, 01:32 PM
I think UC would have some obstacles to overcome in order to join the Big Ten. The first would be facilities. They are improving that but I don't think Nippert would cut it. It would have to be a 45K+ seat stadium. They also are located in a metro area, cant really say that about the other schools. OSU is close to Columbus, but it has so much land that it really doesn't matter.

Everything you said about UC is also true of Pitt. The only difference is that Pitt plays their games at the NFL facility whereas UC does not -- and that's something UC could choose do at any time if the situation was right.

dabvu2498
12-16-2009, 01:44 PM
I don't think OSU would throw that big of a fit if UC joined the Big 10. I don't want to start a debate, but until UC steals a big time prospect from OSU I don't worry about UC. UC just can't compete with the athletic department and facilities that OSU has. I think UC would have some obstacles to overcome in order to join the Big Ten. The first would be facilities. They are improving that but I don't think Nippert would cut it. It would have to be a 45K+ seat stadium. They also are located in a metro area, cant really say that about the other schools. OSU is close to Columbus, but it has so much land that it really doesn't matter. Did Minnesota move outside of the Twin Cities or Northwestern out of Chicago recently? I missed that one.

bucksfan2
12-16-2009, 02:17 PM
Everything you said about UC is also true of Pitt. The only difference is that Pitt plays their games at the NFL facility whereas UC does not -- and that's something UC could choose do at any time if the situation was right.

Obviously I don't know as much about Pitt as I do about UC. Its true that UC could use PBS but I don't like it when they do. It takes away from their unique environment. I did post above they every Big 10 team takes in a minimum of $22M from football revenues and then add on the Big 10 Network revenue. If UC does get an invitation they would be foolish not to accept it. I also think that if they do get an invitation it would be a requirement that Nippert gets a face lift, luxury boxes, and increased seating capacity.

As for Northwestern they defiantly aren't in Chicago. It is close but when I was there last year it had a college town feel and was almost out in the forbidden "burbs".

Chip R
12-16-2009, 02:36 PM
I don't think OSU would throw that big of a fit if UC joined the Big 10. I don't want to start a debate, but until UC steals a big time prospect from OSU I don't worry about UC. UC just can't compete with the athletic department and facilities that OSU has.

I think UC would have some obstacles to overcome in order to join the Big Ten. The first would be facilities. They are improving that but I don't think Nippert would cut it. It would have to be a 45K+ seat stadium. They also are located in a metro area, cant really say that about the other schools. OSU is close to Columbus, but it has so much land that it really doesn't matter.


I don't think they would throw a fit but I think they just wouldn't want them in there. A little too close for comfort. They would have to play them in football every year and probably twice a year in basketball. They don't want to play them in basketball once in 50 years, what makes you think they would want to play them twice a year every year?

You have a point about the facilities. Even Ryan Field in Evanston has 47K seats.

bucksfan2
12-16-2009, 02:59 PM
I don't think they would throw a fit but I think they just wouldn't want them in there. A little too close for comfort. They would have to play them in football every year and probably twice a year in basketball. They don't want to play them in basketball once in 50 years, what makes you think they would want to play them twice a year every year?

You have a point about the facilities. Even Ryan Field in Evanston has 47K seats.

I think football is the big deal. In the Big 10 football is the cash cow and will always be the cash cow. I do agree with you that OSU may not want to play UC every year in football, but I don't think they care a whole lot about basketball. I don't really know why OSU and UC haven't played in basketball, I think that is more of a fan issue than anything else.

I think Nippert would have to get to Ryan Field size to work in the Big 10. And if they do get asked to join it shouldn't be a problem renovating Nippert.

WVRed
12-16-2009, 03:30 PM
Obviously I don't know as much about Pitt as I do about UC. Its true that UC could use PBS but I don't like it when they do. It takes away from their unique environment. I did post above they every Big 10 team takes in a minimum of $22M from football revenues and then add on the Big 10 Network revenue. If UC does get an invitation they would be foolish not to accept it. I also think that if they do get an invitation it would be a requirement that Nippert gets a face lift, luxury boxes, and increased seating capacity.

As for Northwestern they defiantly aren't in Chicago. It is close but when I was there last year it had a college town feel and was almost out in the forbidden "burbs".

I think it would probably be easier to negotiate something with Mike Brown to play at PBS as opposed to renovating Nippert. If that was all that was holding Cincinnati back from moving to the Big 10, it really isn't much.

joshnky
12-16-2009, 03:30 PM
Everything you said about UC is also true of Pitt. The only difference is that Pitt plays their games at the NFL facility whereas UC does not -- and that's something UC could choose do at any time if the situation was right.

Pitt also brought in 20M in football revenue last year compared to UC's 11M.

Caveat Emperor
12-16-2009, 03:33 PM
Pitt also brought in 20M in football revenue last year compared to UC's 11M.

Amazing what 20k extra tickets to sell and premium seating options will do. It's the benefit of playing in a pro-facility. Of course, along with your extra revenue comes the loss of a "college" atmosphere that comes from an on-campus facility and the sense that you're just sharing space with the pro guys in town.

I'm sure USF loves playing football games with a giant pirate ship in the background.

Yachtzee
12-16-2009, 04:03 PM
A couple years ago, as Miami was doing some facilities upgrades, I was hearing some Big 10 talk in Oxford from some folks "in the know." But that seems like a pipe dream at best. They would still have to spend a boatload of money on personnel and facilities. They need a new arena desperately.

Forget about athletic facilities, I don't think Miami could magically invent a top notch graduate program, a law school and a med school in the next few years. As much as Miami grads like to talk about "The Harvard of the Midwest," Miami just doesn't have the chops as a research university to meet the wishes of the presidents of the current Big 10 universities. That, and if they can't dominate the MAC, what makes anyone think they'd do anything in the Big 10 but make Indiana look better at football?

Someone mentioned Temple before, but again that's another school that just doesn't make the grade. Right now they're competing in the MAC in football and, although they made it to a bowl game this year, their performance in the MAC has hardly been dominant. You'd make a better argument for Central Michigan from the MAC.

dabvu2498
12-16-2009, 04:22 PM
Forget about athletic facilities, I don't think Miami could magically invent a top notch graduate program, a law school and a med school in the next few years. As much as Miami grads like to talk about "The Harvard of the Midwest," Miami just doesn't have the chops as a research university to meet the wishes of the presidents of the current Big 10 universities. That, and if they can't dominate the MAC, what makes anyone think they'd do anything in the Big 10 but make Indiana look better at football? Someone mentioned Temple before, but again that's another school that just doesn't make the grade. Right now they're competing in the MAC in football and, although they made it to a bowl game this year, their performance in the MAC has hardly been dominant. You'd make a better argument for Central Michigan from the MAC. Having a law and med school is a prereq for being in the Big 10? Better tell Purdue.

Chip R
12-16-2009, 04:35 PM
Having a law and med school is a prereq for being in the Big 10? Better tell Purdue.


I don't think it's a prereq but when they go looking for new members, they are probably wanting someone who is similar to them. Of course beggars can't be choosers.

dabvu2498
12-16-2009, 04:35 PM
Amazing what 20k extra tickets to sell and premium seating options will do. It's the benefit of playing in a pro-facility. Of course, along with your extra revenue comes the loss of a "college" atmosphere that comes from an on-campus facility and the sense that you're just sharing space with the pro guys in town. I'm sure USF loves playing football games with a giant pirate ship in the background. Maybe, but USF's lowest attendance number for a game the last 2 years was 3k more than the capacity at Nippert.

Yachtzee
12-16-2009, 04:50 PM
Having a law and med school is a prereq for being in the Big 10? Better tell Purdue.

Purdue is in because it has been in since the early days of the Big 10. It doesn't hurt that it has a top notch grad school, even if it lacks a law school and a med school. Purdue certainly has the credibility of a research institution that Miami lacks.

dabvu2498
12-16-2009, 04:57 PM
Purdue is in because it has been in since the early days of the Big 10. It doesn't hurt that it has a top notch grad school, even if it lacks a law school and a med school. Purdue certainly has the credibility of a research institution that Miami lacks. No question.

dabvu2498
12-16-2009, 05:04 PM
I don't think it's a prereq but when they go looking for new members, they are probably wanting someone who is similar to them. Of course beggars can't be choosers. True. Miami's chances of getting an invite to the Big 10+2 are less than zilch nonetheless.

paintmered
12-16-2009, 05:57 PM
Mizzou to the Big 10. TCU to the Big 12. Boise State to the MWC.

This makes sense for all the teams and conferences involved and not just geographically. Mizzou fits the Big 10 persona. TCU rejoins some of its former Southwest Conference counterparts and Boise State escapes the WAC. Maybe most importantly, it avoids much of the residual impact that the ACC caused a few years ago.

Handofdeath
12-16-2009, 05:59 PM
Don't bag on Iowa State so much. They are an outstanding research institution. Yes they would be a bottom feeder in some sports. But their facilities are good, and when they have had the coaches they win. The currently have the best Wrestling program in the Big 12.

Sorry, but the best wrestling program in the Big 12 is Oklahoma State.

Handofdeath
12-16-2009, 06:06 PM
Mizzou to the Big 10. TCU to the Big 12. Boise State to the MWC.

This makes sense for all the teams and conferences involved and not just geographically. Mizzou fits the Big 10 persona. TCU rejoins some of its former Southwest Conference counterparts and Boise State escapes the WAC. Maybe most importantly, it avoids much of the residual impact that the ACC caused a few years ago.

Not a bad idea. I think that the Big 12 would love to exchange Mizzou for TCU.

Scrap Irony
12-16-2009, 06:10 PM
Missouri is a fine team to add to the Bi 10, but it doesn't exactly scream "Big Time" does it? At best, Mizzou is a middle of the pack football and basketball team, with occasional years of slightly more than that.

If the Big 10 wants to be among the uber-conferences in the next 50 years, they'll need a far bigger splash than the Tigers.

Chip R
12-16-2009, 06:22 PM
Missouri is a fine team to add to the Bi 10, but it doesn't exactly scream "Big Time" does it? At best, Mizzou is a middle of the pack football and basketball team, with occasional years of slightly more than that.

If the Big 10 wants to be among the uber-conferences in the next 50 years, they'll need a far bigger splash than the Tigers.


It's like the lady said about her husband, "Better than nothing." ;)

The only problem with Mizzou is they aren't east enough for teams like tOSU and PSU. Right now, only 4 out of 11 Big 10 teams are in the Eastern Time zone. I think they might want a little more balance there.

WVRed
12-16-2009, 06:36 PM
Not a bad idea. I think that the Big 12 would love to exchange Mizzou for TCU.

I think TCU is in the same boat as Houston. Good in a midmajor conference (C-USA could pretty much be viewed in that category), but would get demolished playing in the Big 12.

Arkansas would be a logical choice, but as has been mentioned numerous times, they are locked in with the SEC until the ESPN deal expires.

Handofdeath
12-16-2009, 09:41 PM
I think TCU is in the same boat as Houston. Good in a midmajor conference (C-USA could pretty much be viewed in that category), but would get demolished playing in the Big 12.

Arkansas would be a logical choice, but as has been mentioned numerous times, they are locked in with the SEC until the ESPN deal expires.

Houston beat both Oklahoma State and Texas Tech this season.

HokieRed
12-16-2009, 11:22 PM
I'm not sure Missouri would be regarded an academic equal by many of the Big 10 schools. Not in the way ND, for instance, would be.

Handofdeath
12-17-2009, 01:29 AM
I'm not sure Missouri would be regarded an academic equal by many of the Big 10 schools. Not in the way ND, for instance, would be.

I think that's why Texas gets mentioned as a possibility because they are a top notch school academically.

LoganBuck
12-17-2009, 06:31 AM
Sorry, but the best wrestling program in the Big 12 is Oklahoma State.

Does Oklahoma State have the last three Big 12 Championships? Just Checking.

Handofdeath
12-17-2009, 07:50 AM
Does Oklahoma State have the last three Big 12 Championships? Just Checking.

Fair point, but before those last three conference championships who won the previous 4 national championships? Who's got more national championships period? Having said that, I mean no disrespect to the ISU wrestling program. There's 4 truly great collegiate wrestling programs out there, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Iowa, and Iowa State. I respect the hell out of the Hawkeye wrestling program.

bucksfan2
12-17-2009, 08:47 AM
Missouri is a fine team to add to the Bi 10, but it doesn't exactly scream "Big Time" does it? At best, Mizzou is a middle of the pack football and basketball team, with occasional years of slightly more than that.

If the Big 10 wants to be among the uber-conferences in the next 50 years, they'll need a far bigger splash than the Tigers.

With the exception of ND Missouri makes the most sense. Geographically it doesn't effect travel. They aren't an up and coming program, rather an established program, just 2 removed from playing in the Big 12 title game with a chance to go to the BCS title game.

An uber-splash would be great. Notre Dame would make the most sense all around but they have the NBC contract and look at everything through green colored glasses. Texas is a fun idea but logistically difficult. Think of women's soccer or mens lacrosse or women's gymnastics from an OSU or PSU or UM. They no longer would be able to take a bus to most conference games, they would have to fly to Texas. No big deal but it all adds up, especially with AD's as large as some in the Big 10.

HokieRed
12-17-2009, 09:30 AM
Sorry if this has already been answered. Is the plan to split the conference into divisions of 6 and 6 and play, in football, a championship game? That could make scheduling more constricted for everybody in the conference, including Purdue, MSU, and UM, all of whom play ND every year. If I were ND, I'd be a bit afraid of getting locked out of this thing from the scheduling standpoint.

Hoosier Red
12-17-2009, 09:43 AM
It's like the lady said about her husband, "Better than nothing." ;)

The only problem with Mizzou is they aren't east enough for teams like tOSU and PSU. Right now, only 4 out of 11 Big 10 teams are in the Eastern Time zone. I think they might want a little more balance there.

6 teams are in the Eastern Time Zone now that Indiana's gotten on the daylight savings ball.

tOSU
tPSU
tMSU
Michigan
Indiana
Purdue

Chip R
12-17-2009, 11:40 AM
6 teams are in the Eastern Time Zone now that Indiana's gotten on the daylight savings ball.

tOSU
tPSU
tMSU
Michigan
Indiana
Purdue


Oops. Forgot the Michigan teams. :doh:

Danny Serafini
12-17-2009, 11:50 AM
Sorry if this has already been answered. Is the plan to split the conference into divisions of 6 and 6 and play, in football, a championship game? That could make scheduling more constricted for everybody in the conference, including Purdue, MSU, and UM, all of whom play ND every year. If I were ND, I'd be a bit afraid of getting locked out of this thing from the scheduling standpoint.

It shouldn't affect scheduling at all. They'd still play eight conference games a year. You'd play the other five teams in your division each year, and three teams in the other division, rotating those every other year.

HokieRed
12-17-2009, 02:26 PM
It shouldn't affect scheduling at all. They'd still play eight conference games a year. You'd play the other five teams in your division each year, and three teams in the other division, rotating those every other year.

Is there going to be any provision, like there is in the SEC, for playing historical rivals? That could complicate things. Also, I wonder if teams will soften non-conference schedules if they think they may have to play that 9th game in the championship?

Chip R
12-17-2009, 03:45 PM
Is there going to be any provision, like there is in the SEC, for playing historical rivals? That could complicate things. Also, I wonder if teams will soften non-conference schedules if they think they may have to play that 9th game in the championship?


I'd think most of the historical rivals would be in the same division except maybe Wisconsin and Michigan or Minnesota and Michigan.

Hoosier Red
12-17-2009, 03:54 PM
Is there going to be any provision, like there is in the SEC, for playing historical rivals? That could complicate things. Also, I wonder if teams will soften non-conference schedules if they think they may have to play that 9th game in the championship?

I think it actually makes scheduling easier in a way if they put current rivals in seperate divisions.

Then you could schedule 5 games against your division, 3 games against teams in the other division which will be rotated with one game specifically protected. That way you'd still be rotating 5 teams through two spots.

Caseyfan21
12-17-2009, 09:42 PM
With the exception of ND Missouri makes the most sense. Geographically it doesn't effect travel. They aren't an up and coming program, rather an established program, just 2 removed from playing in the Big 12 title game with a chance to go to the BCS title game.

An uber-splash would be great. Notre Dame would make the most sense all around but they have the NBC contract and look at everything through green colored glasses. Texas is a fun idea but logistically difficult. Think of women's soccer or mens lacrosse or women's gymnastics from an OSU or PSU or UM. They no longer would be able to take a bus to most conference games, they would have to fly to Texas. No big deal but it all adds up, especially with AD's as large as some in the Big 10.

Missouri is also a land grant institution which fits the Big 10's mold. I think for administrators and presidents fitting the image of the Big 10 as a land grant institution is important....even more so than athletic success.

Handofdeath
12-17-2009, 10:55 PM
Excellent article by the Daily Oklahoman


Big 10 expansion could trigger more
Posted by berrytramel
on December 17, 2009M at 9:16 am

All the talk about Big Ten expansion the last few days has led to some interesting theories on the ripple effect from leagues like the Big 12, Big East and ACC. But hereís a league that could be impacted by Big Ten expansion ó the Pac-10.

A friend of mine with Pac-10 ties pointed out yesterday that the Pac-10 and Big Ten, joined at the hip by almost a century of Rose Bowl partnership, routinely follow one another. Usually with the Big Tenís lead. Example: the Pac-10 finally joined the rest of college basketball with a post-season tournament only after the Big Ten joined the fray.
Would Texas or Colorado be involved in a shift of conferences? (AP Photo/Eric Gay)

Would Texas or Colorado be involved in a shift of conferences? (AP Photo/Eric Gay)

So if the Big Ten expanded, the Pac-10 might soon follow. And where would the Pac-10 look? Before the OU-Boise State Fiesta Bowl, I wrote, half-jokingly, that if Boise pulled the upset, the Broncos would be in the Pac-10 within a decade. Thatís not likely to happen; the Pac-10 is proud of its academic status and would look down on Boise State, which was a junior college when UCLAís Gary Beban won the 1967 Heisman Trophy.

The Pac-10 could go after Colorado, which always has been mentioned as a possible Pac-10 member. Or Texas, which flirted with the Pac-10 back in the í90s and is being tossed around as a Big Ten expansion candidate, too. Colorado is a decent possibility and could jump without harmful ramifications. Texas would face politicial pressures if it tried to bolt and leave Texas A&M in a watered-down Big 12.

Utah and Brigham Young would make solid Pac-10 members, but itís hard to see the Pac-10 take one without the other. Going as a package deal makes more sense.

Until this Big Ten talk came around, I believed that Boise State, Fresno State and Nevada were destined to soon join the Mountain West Conference, making it a 12-team league, with an automatic berth in the BCS quickly to follow.

Expansion talk always is fun, until schools actually start jumping around. Then there are profound winners and losers. I talked to SMU people a few years ago when OSU played the Mustangs down in Dallas. I was trying to determine how SMU had recovered from the probation and death penalty it received in the 1980s. SMU people said it had recovered OK from that awful stigma, but the school still had not recovered from the breakup of the Southwest Conference.

If Missouri or Colorado or even Nebraska bolted the Big 12, it would survive and probably even continue to thrive. If Texas left, the whole dang league probably would splinter.

Texas makes no sense geographically to the Big 10 (or the Pac-10) but would be a fabulous addition in most every other regard. Travel expenses would soar for all sports, which is no big deal to Texas, but how about Northwestern or Indiana or Michigan State? Does it want to fly its baseball teams to Austin every other year?

The most serene move in this whole discussion would be if Notre Dame just joined the Big Ten. And NBC holds the key to that. NBC and its solo contract with Notre Dame is why the Irish keep firing football coaches. Notre Dame knows that golden dome goose doesnít have to play out forever. The Irish have to be nationally competitive for people to keep watching, which they are in increasingly fewer numbers.

If Notre Dame joined the Big Ten, the domino effect, at least east of the Rockies, would stop. But if the Big Ten pulls from another conference, itís chaos.

HokieRed
12-17-2009, 11:23 PM
Missouri is also a land grant institution which fits the Big 10's mold. I think for administrators and presidents fitting the image of the Big 10 as a land grant institution is important....even more so than athletic success.

Don't mean to offend any grads of the University of Missouri, but there's no university in the Big Ten that would consider Missouri a peer institution academically.

Caveat Emperor
12-18-2009, 01:21 AM
Don't mean to offend any grads of the University of Missouri, but there's no university in the Big Ten that would consider Missouri a peer institution academically.

I don't get the academic fascination in these discussions. I understand that's the ultimate goal of a college or university, but the fact of the matter is that we're talking about membership in an ATHLETIC CONFERENCE. It seems silly to me that a group like the Big10 or Pac10 would care about such things.

And, for that matter, if Missouri's professors were body-swapped with Ohio State's professors, do you think anyone would really notice the difference? Ever? Academic quality of a university is ridiculously subjective and a function of a things like reputation, local/statewide student body, and even things like size of endowment (which doesn't really measure anything other than how rich your alums are). To say that Mizzou isn't a "peer" to places like Ohio State and Penn State is pretty arrogant. It's not like they're a community college or a "get your diploma at home" TV school.

Brutus
12-18-2009, 03:10 AM
I don't get the academic fascination in these discussions. I understand that's the ultimate goal of a college or university, but the fact of the matter is that we're talking about membership in an ATHLETIC CONFERENCE. It seems silly to me that a group like the Big10 or Pac10 would care about such things.

And, for that matter, if Missouri's professors were body-swapped with Ohio State's professors, do you think anyone would really notice the difference? Ever? Academic quality of a university is ridiculously subjective and a function of a things like reputation, local/statewide student body, and even things like size of endowment (which doesn't really measure anything other than how rich your alums are). To say that Mizzou isn't a "peer" to places like Ohio State and Penn State is pretty arrogant. It's not like they're a community college or a "get your diploma at home" TV school.

For the most part I agree, but there is some pull with the CIC and the amount of grants received in research and such. It's not all academic, pardon the pun.

Hoosier Red
12-18-2009, 09:42 AM
I don't get the academic fascination in these discussions. I understand that's the ultimate goal of a college or university, but the fact of the matter is that we're talking about membership in an ATHLETIC CONFERENCE. It seems silly to me that a group like the Big10 or Pac10 would care about such things.

And, for that matter, if Missouri's professors were body-swapped with Ohio State's professors, do you think anyone would really notice the difference? Ever? Academic quality of a university is ridiculously subjective and a function of a things like reputation, local/statewide student body, and even things like size of endowment (which doesn't really measure anything other than how rich your alums are). To say that Mizzou isn't a "peer" to places like Ohio State and Penn State is pretty arrogant. It's not like they're a community college or a "get your diploma at home" TV school.

No and they would likely improve in academic reputation with an inclusion the Big 10. Most of that is because it's in fact subjective.

The Big 10 is more than just athletics, and it's different from some(most?) conferences in that regard. The Big East was a bunch of independants who joined together to create a basketball superconference back in the early 80's, the Big Ten is a conference formed 100 years ago when athletics was one of many things that united them. At IU we had access to all Big Ten libraries for a inter library loans for example, and a lot of the schools balance each other out. For instance IU has the medical and law schools while Purdue has the engineering and agriculture.

Unassisted
12-18-2009, 11:31 AM
Missouri is also a land grant institution which fits the Big 10's mold. I think for administrators and presidents fitting the image of the Big 10 as a land grant institution is important....even more so than athletic success.That's a good point. In the Big East, only Rutgers, West Virginia and Connecticut are 1862 land grant institutions.

paintmered
12-18-2009, 06:11 PM
At IU we had access to all Big Ten libraries for a inter library loans for example, and a lot of the schools balance each other out. For instance IU has the medical and law schools while Purdue has the engineering and agriculture.

I'm pretty sure that's a State of Indiana arrangement and not a Big Ten arrangement.

Caseyfan21
12-18-2009, 08:37 PM
I don't get the academic fascination in these discussions. I understand that's the ultimate goal of a college or university, but the fact of the matter is that we're talking about membership in an ATHLETIC CONFERENCE. It seems silly to me that a group like the Big10 or Pac10 would care about such things.

And, for that matter, if Missouri's professors were body-swapped with Ohio State's professors, do you think anyone would really notice the difference? Ever? Academic quality of a university is ridiculously subjective and a function of a things like reputation, local/statewide student body, and even things like size of endowment (which doesn't really measure anything other than how rich your alums are). To say that Mizzou isn't a "peer" to places like Ohio State and Penn State is pretty arrogant. It's not like they're a community college or a "get your diploma at home" TV school.

The Big 10 does place a big emphasis on academics and any university that would join for athletics would need to be in line academically. From that standpoint the best choices would be Notre Dame and Pitt with Missouri further back. I believe (don't quote me) that all Big 10 universities are ranked in the top 75 nationally.

Keep in mind the University of Chicago is still a member of the Big 10 despite not competing in athletics. They are an academic member.

Hoosier Red
12-18-2009, 11:16 PM
I'm pretty sure that's a State of Indiana arrangement and not a Big Ten arrangement.

Yes absolutely. My point was though that the schools are all part of a bigger academic community.

Handofdeath
12-20-2009, 05:16 PM
According to some at the Oklahoman newspaper, Nebraska is the most likely choice because of geography and the football program to join the Big 12. TCU joins the Big 12 and goes to the South Division with Oklahoma State moving to the Big 12 North, which OSU would do in a heartbeat.

HokieRed
12-20-2009, 10:13 PM
As somebody who's been an academic for almost forty years, I can tell you that there is some weight given to academic status in these matters. That's not to say that all such considerations can't be overriden for a school that really strengthens a conference athletically. But there are all sorts of cooperative ventures within universities that tend to get organized around conference affiliations. It does matter and it is a factor in the way administrators look at things.

RedsManRick
12-21-2009, 12:46 AM
As somebody who's been an academic for almost forty years, I can tell you that there is some weight given to academic status in these matters. That's not to say that all such considerations can't be overriden for a school that really strengthens a conference athletically. But there are all sorts of cooperative ventures within universities that tend to get organized around conference affiliations. It does matter and it is a factor in the way administrators look at things.

Exactly. And beyond the resource sharing, though such entities as CIC, a conference affiliation is, in large part, a branding exercise.

Chip R
03-02-2010, 07:51 PM
It looks like Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers, Missouri and Notre Dame are the ones the Big 10 had their eye on.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=4959107

Hoosier Red
03-02-2010, 09:36 PM
I prefer Texas.
Or kicking out Northwestern.

11larkin11
03-03-2010, 12:42 AM
I prefer Texas.
Or kicking out Northwestern.

Yeah, kicking out the top academic school in a conference based upon academics. Not going to happen.

bucksfan2
03-03-2010, 08:19 AM
I prefer Texas.
Or kicking out Northwestern.

The Big 10 has kept University of Chicago in the Academic Big 10 since the inception, there is no way the Big 10 is kicking out their most prestigious academic university. FWIW Northwestern has hardly been a bottom feeder in Basketball and Football over the past few years.

For me its ND or bust. No sense bringing in the other schools because they all have their warts, pretty significant warts if you ask me.

Chip R
03-03-2010, 08:53 AM
For me its ND or bust. No sense bringing in the other schools because they all have their warts, pretty significant warts if you ask me.


I think they are committed to getting a 12th team no matter who it is. It's for that conference championship game. While the SEC and Big 12 and, to a lesser extent, the ACC are playing their conference championship games in early December, the Big 10 is sitting at home watching it on TV waiting to go to the bowl games. I'm not a fan of the conference championship game but it really doesn't make much sense not to have one while others you are competing against do.

Hoosier Red
03-03-2010, 01:21 PM
Yeah, kicking out the top academic school in a conference based upon academics. Not going to happen.

I don't see it happening either. Of course, if they're kicking people out, IU would probably be early on the chopping block so I'm not in favor of that. i was just throwing out someone not named IU.

The easiest solution to me is Mizzou, the best solution is Texas. I'll settle for either.

Slyder
03-03-2010, 01:27 PM
I don't see it happening either. Of course, if they're kicking people out, IU would probably be early on the chopping block so I'm not in favor of that. i was just throwing out someone not named IU.

The easiest solution to me is Mizzou, the best solution is Texas. I'll settle for either.

If it were Mizzou or Texas would LSU leave the SEC for the Big 12?

Would the SEC go with WVU to fill that spot?

I still think the Big 10 is trying to call ND bluff by being able to say "we are looking at other schools".

Caveat Emperor
03-03-2010, 01:42 PM
Yeah, kicking out the top academic school in a conference based upon academics. Not going to happen.

It might be based on academics, but I don't know that there's much reason for the "Big 10" to exist if they aren't playing tackle football.

And really, that's what this whole discussion is about -- so the academic pretense continues to strike me as quite silly.

RiverRat13
03-03-2010, 01:53 PM
If it were Mizzou or Texas would LSU leave the SEC for the Big 12?
.

No way. The SEC TV contract is much bigger than the Big 12's. LSU would lose too much money.

UKFlounder
03-03-2010, 04:49 PM
"Image is everything" - the same reason Vanderbilt - whose football program is worse than Northwestern's, but who is better at basketball - is in the SEC - academic reputation. Kicking a school like that out of a conference would look awfully bad to any conference, as they pretend to be concerened about "student athletes."

Your point is accurate and your point valid, but I do think it is an "image" issue.



It might be based on academics, but I don't know that there's much reason for the "Big 10" to exist if they aren't playing tackle football.

And really, that's what this whole discussion is about -- so the academic pretense continues to strike me as quite silly.

paintmered
03-03-2010, 10:04 PM
For me its ND or bust.

On behalf of the Big East, you can have them.

Boston Red
03-03-2010, 10:26 PM
On behalf of the Big East, you can have them.

Are you kidding me? Think of everything ND brings to the table for the Big East. Oh, wait, they don't bring anything to the table.

joshnky
03-04-2010, 06:14 AM
Are you kidding me? Think of everything ND brings to the table for the Big East. Oh, wait, they don't bring anything to the table.

I disagree with this. We would take a huge hit in the credibility of the non-revenue sports without Notre Dame. They're inconsequential in basketball but a national player in most other areas.

Boston Red
03-04-2010, 07:31 AM
I disagree with this. We would take a huge hit in the credibility of the non-revenue sports without Notre Dame. They're inconsequential in basketball but a national player in most other areas.

Yes, what would the conference do if they lost credibility in women's swimming and men's tennis? It would be devastating to the league.

joshnky
03-04-2010, 11:37 AM
Yes, what would the conference do if they lost credibility in women's swimming and men's tennis? It would be devastating to the league.

And kicking out Notre Dame is going to make men's football better? Nothing positive comes from booting Notre Dame other than a feeling of justice for some fans.

Boston Red
03-04-2010, 12:11 PM
I don't want to boot them. I just wouldn't miss them. Sort of like Providence. Or DePaul.

joshnky
03-04-2010, 02:13 PM
I don't want to boot them. I just wouldn't miss them. Sort of like Providence. Or DePaul.

I misunderstood. I agree with this sentiment.

paintmered
03-04-2010, 04:55 PM
And kicking out Notre Dame is going to make men's football better? Nothing positive comes from booting Notre Dame other than a feeling of justice for some fans.

It opens up a spot in the conference to add a 9th football team and a balanced schedule. And offering Notre Dame to the Big 11 gods might spare the conference entirely.

Slyder
03-05-2010, 08:44 AM
It opens up a spot in the conference to add a 9th football team and a balanced schedule. And offering Notre Dame to the Big 11 gods might spare the conference entirely.

No it wouldnt. The basketball schools I'm certain would step in and demand that it be another school that doesnt have a football team to keep things "in balance". Someone like UNC (insert campus here), UMass, etc would get ND spot to keep things at 8 and 8. The ONLY way for the football schools to get a 9th member would be to go off on their own.

joshnky
03-05-2010, 11:46 AM
No it wouldnt. The basketball schools I'm certain would step in and demand that it be another school that doesnt have a football team to keep things "in balance". Someone like UNC (insert campus here), UMass, etc would get ND spot to keep things at 8 and 8. The ONLY way for the football schools to get a 9th member would be to go off on their own.

This post shows the fragility of the Big East conference in its present state. Tranghese did a terrific job assembling the conference and keeping it together but with him gone, implosion is just around the corner. Unfortunately, I think the changes that are coming for the conference will not be looked upon favorably by UofL and UC fans. The basketball side will suffer greatly if the non-football schools split and the football conference, which is poor in its present state, won't improve significantly by adding schools like ECU, S Miss, or Villanova.

It really makes me wish that the Big Ten was pursuing Louisville.

Slyder
03-05-2010, 12:26 PM
This post shows the fragility of the Big East conference in its present state. Tranghese did a terrific job assembling the conference and keeping it together but with him gone, implosion is just around the corner. Unfortunately, I think the changes that are coming for the conference will not be looked upon favorably by UofL and UC fans. The basketball side will suffer greatly if the non-football schools split and the football conference, which is poor in its present state, won't improve significantly by adding schools like ECU, S Miss, or Villanova.

It really makes me wish that the Big Ten was pursuing Louisville.

If East Carolina shows a commitment to ALL sports programs they could very easily come in and replace (maybe not in tradition but in current makeup) a Pittsburgh, Rutgers, or even to a point Syracuse. They are located in one of the fastest growing areas in the east and if they got money going they could very easily be another South Florida.

Many people the last time thought that Cincy was a bone to make Louisville happier and we see how that worked out.

joshnky
03-10-2010, 10:32 AM
I read where the PAC10 is looking to expand to 12 teams as well so there will likely be a huge shake-up this off-season and now apparently even Notre Dame is "concerned" about their ability to maintain independent status in football. Clearly, this is likely to hurt the Big East under most scenarios but here is what I see as the options going forward ranked in order of what I'd prefer not likelihood:

1) Notre Dame sees the writing on the wall, misses out on Big Ten expansion and joins the Big East as a full member contingent on an improved ESPN deal. Villanova moves up to 1A to give the Big East 10 football members. Basketball conference stays the same.

2) Notre Dame joins Big Ten and Big East replaces them with East Carolina and then adds Villanova to football. Not ideal, but football improves and basketball is largely unchanged.

3) Most likely, Pitt joins Big Ten and Big East replaces them with ECU and adds Villanova. Football is hurt (we'd probably lose BCS status at the next negotiation) and basketball is marginally worse. This could apply for Rutgers or Syracuse leaving as well.

4) What I'm most worried about, Pitt joins Big Ten and in the attempt to replace them the conference splits and reforms with ten full member schools. Basketball is much weaker and football would likely lose BCS affiliation.

Chip R
03-10-2010, 11:18 AM
I read where the PAC10 is looking to expand to 12 teams as well so there will likely be a huge shake-up this off-season and now apparently even Notre Dame is "concerned" about their ability to maintain independent status in football. Clearly, this is likely to hurt the Big East under most scenarios but here is what I see as the options going forward ranked in order of what I'd prefer not likelihood:

1) Notre Dame sees the writing on the wall, misses out on Big Ten expansion and joins the Big East as a full member contingent on an improved ESPN deal. Villanova moves up to 1A to give the Big East 10 football members. Basketball conference stays the same.

2) Notre Dame joins Big Ten and Big East replaces them with East Carolina and then adds Villanova to football. Not ideal, but football improves and basketball is largely unchanged.

3) Most likely, Pitt joins Big Ten and Big East replaces them with ECU and adds Villanova. Football is hurt (we'd probably lose BCS status at the next negotiation) and basketball is marginally worse. This could apply for Rutgers or Syracuse leaving as well.

4) What I'm most worried about, Pitt joins Big Ten and in the attempt to replace them the conference splits and reforms with ten full member schools. Basketball is much weaker and football would likely lose BCS affiliation.


Seems like ND is getting a bit worried about missing out on money.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/football/ncaa/03/09/notre-dame-expansion/

Kingspoint
03-15-2010, 06:40 PM
How can Notre Dame not try to join the Big-Ten? They're not a "draw" anymore, and will never get another TV contract that's half-way decent from anyone. (unless it's EWTN, the Catholic Channel, but they don't have any money).

Kingspoint
03-15-2010, 06:44 PM
The teams that I would think would be the best schools for entering the Pac-10 would be Fresno State and Boise State. Those two teams would help the Pac-10 the most, I think. Fresno State's baseball program is also excellent, while Boise State has an excellent wrestling program and I could see them improving on a basketball program (though it might not take much improvement to compete in the Pac-10. ;) ).

I wonder what schools are being considered?

Hoosier Red
03-15-2010, 06:44 PM
The whole TV contract is a bit overstated in today's market anyway. Notre Dame would likely get more from its share of the Big 10 network revenues than they get from its current contract.

Also, the Big 10 brings up Rutgers as a way of getting into the NY market, but quite honestly Notre Dame would probably create more demand in the big apple than the State University of New Jersey.

Chip R
03-16-2010, 12:54 AM
NBC is still happy with their ND deal...for now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/11/sports/ncaafootball/11sandomir.html?_r=3

Caveat Emperor
03-16-2010, 08:45 PM
This post shows the fragility of the Big East conference in its present state. Tranghese did a terrific job assembling the conference and keeping it together but with him gone, implosion is just around the corner. Unfortunately, I think the changes that are coming for the conference will not be looked upon favorably by UofL and UC fans. The basketball side will suffer greatly if the non-football schools split and the football conference, which is poor in its present state, won't improve significantly by adding schools like ECU, S Miss, or Villanova.

It really makes me wish that the Big Ten was pursuing Louisville.

The Big East, in it's current form, probably doesn't have much longer to live -- months at worst, a year or two at best IMO. There is *way* too much chatter out there about multiple different "power" conferences looking to expand. If any of the eastern power conferences (B10, SEC, ACC) decided to expand, it'd probably be curtains for the Big East. There simply aren't enough good programs out there to bring aboard if the league wants to maintain it's AQ status. The Big East seems destined, ultimately, to either be bitten apart and collapse or to split and expand.

The "outside looking in" bunch appears to be Cincy, UofL and USF -- as they're consistently the names that are conspicuously absent when expansion is discussed by the other conferences. That's *really* bad news -- losing access to an AQ-conference would be a deathblow to all three programs, especially UC and USF. If I'm the Administration for these three schools, I'm actively out there advocating for the Big East to split apart and add schools to the football side before the B10 gets their act together.

This whole discussion should have UC fans extremely nervous -- it wouldn't take a whole lot to happen for UC to be playing football in a conference on roughly the same footing (in both quality and financial benefit) as the MAC or C-USA.

improbus
03-16-2010, 08:49 PM
How can Notre Dame not try to join the Big-Ten? They're not a "draw" anymore, and will never get another TV contract that's half-way decent from anyone. (unless it's EWTN, the Catholic Channel, but they don't have any money).
Notre Dame gets some BCS money, whether they make the BCS or not. That is why they don't want to join.

KronoRed
03-16-2010, 08:57 PM
NBC is still happy with their ND deal...for now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/11/sports/ncaafootball/11sandomir.html?_r=3

NBC Sports was happy with the Olympics to, of course it cost NBC 200 million dollars, so I doubt they are objective :D

joshnky
03-16-2010, 08:58 PM
Notre Dame gets some BCS money, whether they make the BCS or not. That is why they don't want to join.

Do they get the money if they don't play in one of the games? I was under the impression that they got the full cut (both team and conference) only when they made one of the games.

Edit: Never mind, I found the following explaining their deal:


Under the new BCS arrangement Notre Dame will be guaranteed one of the at-large slots in a BCS bowl if it is ranked No. 8 or better in the final BCS Standings. It is also guaranteed annual payment for its participation in the BCS. In those seasons in which the Irish play in a BCS game, the school will receive $4.5 million (an amount equivalent that received by a conference that places a second team in a BCS bowl). In those seasons in which Notre Dame does not play in a BCS game, it is projected to be paid $1.3 million for its participation in the BCS arrangement.

Yachtzee
03-16-2010, 10:48 PM
Do they get the money if they don't play in one of the games? I was under the impression that they got the full cut (both team and conference) only when they made one of the games.

Edit: Never mind, I found the following explaining their deal:

I wonder how much longer that agreement will last, considering Notre Dame has only made 3 appearances in BCS games and lost all 3. It seems to me that the deal was originally struck at a time when Notre Dame was expected to be participating in BCS games most years. I don't know that Notre Dame will have the same kind of pull if the BCS has to be redone because the Big East falls apart.

Kingspoint
03-17-2010, 05:10 AM
I wonder how much longer that agreement will last, considering Notre Dame has only made 3 appearances in BCS games and lost all 3.

......and never belonged in a single one of them screwing some teams that should have gotten those bids who earned it. "Notre Dame travels well" is what I heard every year that they got those undeserved bids.

Roy Tucker
03-17-2010, 07:52 AM
Let me preface this with "I'm not a ND fan".

But if Brian Kelly works the same mojo he worked at UC, I see ND returning to glory sometime very soon. If Kelly can pull a school like UC out of the weeds, he can do it anywhere.

ND will soon have lots of leverage. The Big 10 better strike in the very near future. The window will close here soon.

bucksfan2
03-17-2010, 08:10 AM
......and never belonged in a single one of them screwing some teams that should have gotten those bids who earned it. "Notre Dame travels well" is what I heard every year that they got those undeserved bids.

Its one of those things that shouldn't happen but it does. Teams that travel well get the big money bowl bids. Its why Iowa got a second BCS bowl bid. Its part of the reason why Boise St. gets at large selections. If teams like OSU, Alabama, ND, LSU, etc. are bowl eligible they will get the BCS bid because of $ and cents.

It has long been rumored that the Big East will eventually split along the football lines. The one interesting team is Vilanova, will they jump up to FBS or not. I do think the Big East works now, the basketball may be a super conference, but the good teams are succeeding and the bad teams aren't. It should be that way in every conference.

Sea Ray
03-18-2010, 11:42 AM
I'd love to see ND in the Big Ten but I don't see what they'd gain by joining. Geographically ND adds nothing to the Big Ten as they already control the Chicago area. I doubt Texas would want to move to the Big Ten. That leaves Missouri and Rutgers. My money is on Rutgers. The ratings on the east coast for the Big Ten Network and other things could really jump by adding a team in New Jersey. It also opens up a new area in recruiting.

bucksfan2
03-18-2010, 11:45 AM
I'd love to see ND in the Big Ten but I don't see what they'd gain by joining. Geographically ND adds nothing to the Big Ten as they already control the Chicago area. I doubt Texas would want to move to the Big Ten. That leaves Missouri and Rutgers. My money is on Rutgers. The ratings on the east coast for the Big Ten Network and other things could really jump by adding a team in New Jersey. It also opens up a new area in recruiting.

ND is a national market thanks to NBC. I don't like the idea of going after Rutgers. Sure it may add a market but why add a bottom feeder to the Big 10?

Hoosier Red
03-18-2010, 11:57 AM
I'd love to see ND in the Big Ten but I don't see what they'd gain by joining. Geographically ND adds nothing to the Big Ten as they already control the Chicago area. I doubt Texas would want to move to the Big Ten. That leaves Missouri and Rutgers. My money is on Rutgers. The ratings on the east coast for the Big Ten Network and other things could really jump by adding a team in New Jersey. It also opens up a new area in recruiting.

I agree with Bucksfan, Notre Dame adds more of an east coast presence than Rutgers. Notre Dame would have a number of advantages joining. 1st, as I said, the Big 10 revenue split is right around what Notre Dame's contract with NBC pays them. Add Notre Dame to the pie and every east coast cable provider picks up the Big 10 network and they probably get an even larger chunk.
In addition, it has to be cheaper for the non-revenue sports to compete in the Big 10 where they can bus almost everywhere as opposed to the Big East where they have to take a plane everywhere except maybe Marquette.

redsbuckeye
03-19-2010, 12:40 PM
Oh, one of my favorite topics and I missed out till now.

Anyway, I think the order of preference will be Mizzou, Rutgers, Pitt (a distant third) with ND being a secret preference over the others. I think ND is going to have to show some interest for the Big 10 to come calling this time, as the conference doesn't want to be jilted again. If there's not talking between those two then Mizzou gets the offer and most likely accepts.

Sea Ray
03-19-2010, 03:29 PM
I agree with Bucksfan, Notre Dame adds more of an east coast presence than Rutgers. Notre Dame would have a number of advantages joining. 1st, as I said, the Big 10 revenue split is right around what Notre Dame's contract with NBC pays them. Add Notre Dame to the pie and every east coast cable provider picks up the Big 10 network and they probably get an even larger chunk.
In addition, it has to be cheaper for the non-revenue sports to compete in the Big 10 where they can bus almost everywhere as opposed to the Big East where they have to take a plane everywhere except maybe Marquette.

Are you sure about your numbers? I'll admit that I'm not privy to how much Big Ten schools make in football TV money but NBC pays ND $15mill/yr. I have my doubts that each Big Ten school gets that much.

The Notre Dame contract with NBC also runs through 2015.

It sounds like the Big Ten wants a team to come crawling. They don't want to give them their fair share of the Big Ten revenue pie and in fact they want this new school to pay for the honor of joining the conference.


"You just don't jump into the league and get a full share of what everyone else in this league has established over time," Wisconsin athletic director Barry Alvarez told The Associated Press. "I think someone has to buy their way into the league."

The Tribune reported that according to sources, a Big East school joining the Big Ten would have to pay $5 million as a "loyalty clause" fee.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=4959107

I don't know about you but that doesn't sound like Notre Dame is a good fit. Why would they take that deal? That sounds more like a bottomfeeder (as someone else put it) like Rutgers or Missouri.

BuckeyeRed27
03-19-2010, 04:14 PM
I believe the NBC contract pays ND $9M a year not $15M. Best case Notre Dame gets $4.5M for a bowl and last year of course got nothing and got $750,000 the year before.
I read that the Big 10 schools between the Big 10 Network and ABC/ESPN and bowl games split about $17-22M last season.

Financially it makes sense for ND to join the Big 10.

Hoosier Red
03-19-2010, 04:46 PM
Are you sure about your numbers? I'll admit that I'm not privy to how much Big Ten schools make in football TV money but NBC pays ND $15mill/yr. I have my doubts that each Big Ten school gets that much.

The Notre Dame contract with NBC also runs through 2015.

It sounds like the Big Ten wants a team to come crawling. They don't want to give them their fair share of the Big Ten revenue pie and in fact they want this new school to pay for the honor of joining the conference.



I don't know about you but that doesn't sound like Notre Dame is a good fit. Why would they take that deal? That sounds more like a bottomfeeder (as someone else put it) like Rutgers or Missouri.

http://blog.pennlive.com/davidjones/2010/03/how_the_big_ten_network_makes.html

According to a recent Associated Press report, the Big Ten Network is now delivering $66 million annually to league coffers, netting an extra $4 million to each league member. By itself, that's an 18-percent jump in per-school payout.

Assuming Notre Dame joins, the rights for cable companies will go up even more. Companies like Cablevision in NYC would likely add it to the basic package and the Big Ten network probably gets better ad revenue then Ro-Tel Salsa.
That's in addition to the $1 billion 10 year ESPN contract.

Crawling or not, the Big 10 splits the money evenly or at least it always has. I doubt any school would come without 1/12 of the revenue.

Found this from googling Big 10 revenue, don't know how accurate it is.
http://www.cyclonefanatic.com/forum/state-rivals/58162-big-ten-network-revenue.html

$197,760,000 Total Annual Subscriber Revenue (known data only)
$100,857,600 Big 10 Share
$__9,168,873 Per School Share

joshnky
03-19-2010, 05:30 PM
Best case Notre Dame gets $4.5M for a bowl and last year of course got nothing and got $750,000 the year before.

As previously indicated, Notre Dame gets $1.3 million from the BCS even if they don't play in a bowl.

BuckeyeRed27
03-19-2010, 06:39 PM
As previously indicated, Notre Dame gets $1.3 million from the BCS even if they don't play in a bowl.

That's great. Indiana and Northwestern got a little under $5M and they didn't play in the BCS either.

joshnky
03-19-2010, 07:46 PM
That's great. Indiana and Northwestern got a little under $5M and they didn't play in the BCS either.

Not from the BCS deal they didn't. I was just refuting your claim that Notre Dame doesn't make anything if they miss a bowl. They still get a cut and it is larger than it would be as a conference member.

During the 2008-2009 season Notre Dame football generated $57M in revenue. By comparison, Wisconsin (same record, similar bowl) made $40M in revenue. Even comparing to Ohio St (BCS bowl, revenue machine, huge stadium) they were only $10M less which isn't much when you consider the disparity between the success of the two teams that season. The fact is, right now, Notre Dame is a revenue machine and doesn't have to worry about any conference ties. The only reason to switch would be if they anticipate smaller TV deals in the future.

Sea Ray
03-19-2010, 11:34 PM
I believe the NBC contract pays ND $9M a year not $15M. Best case Notre Dame gets $4.5M for a bowl and last year of course got nothing and got $750,000 the year before.
I read that the Big 10 schools between the Big 10 Network and ABC/ESPN and bowl games split about $17-22M last season.

Financially it makes sense for ND to join the Big 10.

So each school got about $2mill from TV last year? Am I hearing you right? I don't see how that would make sense for ND even if they were only getting $9mill and I have evidence that it's much more than that.

Don't make a statement like "financially it makes sense" until you have the facts.

According to the NY Times Notre Dame's new contract does indeed pay them $15mill /yr. They were commenting that one year of that would nearly pay off Charlie Weis' contract:


NBC is paying about $15 million a year in the current deal, enough to help fund most of the reported $18 million Notre Dame must pay to buy out Weisís contract.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/11/sports/ncaafootball/11sandomir.html?_r=2

Take note of Barry Alvarez's comment that the new Big Ten team cannot expect an equal share of the Big Ten revenue right off the bat and I would say it makes very little financial sense for ND to join the Big Ten.

Who's going to buy out the rest of NBC's contract since it runs through 2015?

I understand from a fan's perspective it makes tons of sense but when you look at the dollars and cents it really does not.

BuckeyeRed27
03-20-2010, 01:57 PM
http://ncaafootball.fanhouse.com/2009/06/15/as-notre-dames-tv-money-dwindles-so-too-should-its-independenc/

Here is a pretty good article on the situation and some of the financials.

I looked at several outlets and although there aren't official numbers from any source I found 6 sources that said ND is paid about $9M and one that said they are paid $15M.

And to the other posters point about the BCS payments it is a simple conference vs. independent argument. Indiana, Northwestern, etc. are paid by the BCS. The Big 10 gets money from the BCS every year and splits it up so even if they miss a bowl game (which they usually do) they are going to get paid and most years that is going to be more (probably a lot more) than ND gets paid. BCS games usually pay between $16-19M and the Big 10 has gotten 2 bids most years. So lets say worst case that's $32M to split between 11 schools or just a shade under $3M. That is twice what ND gets plus what the other 5 or 6 schools payouts for not playing a bowl game.

OUReds
03-20-2010, 02:10 PM
If a conference places two teams in the BCS, the second team gets a reduced payout (last year is was about 4.5 million dollars as opposed to the 17.7 for the first team). If Notre Dame actually makes a BCS bowl, they receive around 5.8 million million dollars that they do not have to split of course. Source (http://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/article/64647)

joshnky
03-20-2010, 02:16 PM
And to the other posters point about the BCS payments it is a simple conference vs. independent argument. Indiana, Northwestern, etc. are paid by the BCS. The Big 10 gets money from the BCS every year and splits it up so even if they miss a bowl game (which they usually do) they are going to get paid and most years that is going to be more (probably a lot more) than ND gets paid. BCS games usually pay between $16-19M and the Big 10 has gotten 2 bids most years. So lets say worst case that's $32M to split between 11 schools or just a shade under $3M. That is twice what ND gets plus what the other 5 or 6 schools payouts for not playing a bowl game.

I found this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCS_controversies#cite_note-3)that explains the revenue sharing:


The official BCS website discusses the payouts for the 2008-2009 BCS bowls.[11]

* Each BCS conference is guaranteed approximately $18.3 million, plus an additional $4.5 million should a second conference team be selected. Although each conference has its own arrangement for the distribution of these funds, the average income per school in each conference is as follows (One team selected/Two teams selected):
o Atlantic Coast (12 teams): $1.525M / $1.900M
o Big East (8 teams): $2.288M / $2.850M
o Big Ten (11 teams): $1.664M / $2.073M
o Big 12 (12 teams): $1.525M / $1.900M
o Pacific 10 (10 teams): $1.830M / $2.280M
o Southeastern (12 teams): $1.525M / $1.900M

* Notre Dame is guaranteed 1/66th of net revenues, or approximately $1.3 million. If selected to play in a BCS bowl, Notre Dame will receive $4.5 million.

So, if Notre Dame doesn't make a BCS bowl and the Big Ten has two BCS teams they'd receive $700K less than Ohio State, the Big Ten champ. If they make a BCS game, they'd receive $2.5M more than Ohio St, provided the Big Ten has two BCS teams. From what I've read, the Big Ten distributes the money evenly, so their BCS participant receives the same amount as their last place team. The Big East is the only conference that uses a tiered system. What you were missing in your estimate is that the conference takes out all bowl related expenses before distributing the pay out.

BuckeyeRed27
03-20-2010, 02:21 PM
If a conference places two teams in the BCS, the second team gets a reduced payout (last year is was about 4.5 million dollars as opposed to the 17.7 for the first team). Source (http://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/article/64647)

Thank you I didn't realize that. Still doesn't change the argument much.

Here is my overall point and I think most would agree with this: If Notre Dame can once again become a consistant Top 10 college football program than I'm sure they can make more money staying independent. If they can't do that year in and year out than they are better off being in a conference and the best choice for them there would be the Big 10.
By not joining a confernce ND is taking the risk that they are going to be returning to a top tier program and soon, otherwise they are probably not making as much money right now as they could be and certainly will be over time.
The choice for them is the risk of staying independent or the guarentee of joining the conference.

BuckeyeRed27
03-20-2010, 02:26 PM
I found this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCS_controversies#cite_note-3)that explains the revenue sharing:



So, if Notre Dame doesn't make a BCS bowl and the Big Ten has two BCS teams they'd receive $700K less than Ohio State, the Big Ten champ. If they make a BCS game, they'd receive $2.5M more than Ohio St, provided the Big Ten has two BCS teams. From what I've read, the Big Ten distributes the money evenly, so their BCS participant receives the same amount as their last place team. The Big East is the only conference that uses a tiered system. What you were missing in your estimate is that the conference takes out all bowl related expenses before distributing the pay out.


Two things:

1. That is just for the BCS bowls. You also have to factor in the rest of the bowl games and the Big 10 has nice tie ins that are among the highest non BCS payouts. With those factored in the Big 10 teams will still make more money than ND will if it makes a BCS bowl.

2. Everyone has costs. Obviously NDs cost would be less because they are one team vs. the Big 10 having to pay for 6 or 7 schools expenses, but we haven't taken out NDs costs so why should we take out the Big 10s?

OUReds
03-20-2010, 02:42 PM
Thank you I didn't realize that. Still doesn't change the argument much.

If we're only talking long-term finances, I don't think there is any question that ND would be better off in the Big Ten.

joshnky
03-20-2010, 03:55 PM
Two things:

1. That is just for the BCS bowls. You also have to factor in the rest of the bowl games and the Big 10 has nice tie ins that are among the highest non BCS payouts. With those factored in the Big 10 teams will still make more money than ND will if it makes a BCS bowl.

Last year, that amounted to $2.2M per team after expenses. The BCS bowls are the only real money makers. Link (http://www.mndaily.com/2009/12/07/universities-and-conferences-cash-bowl-game-bids)



2. Everyone has costs. Obviously NDs cost would be less because they are one team vs. the Big 10 having to pay for 6 or 7 schools expenses, but we haven't taken out NDs costs so why should we take out the Big 10s?

The best expense estimate I could find was $2M per bowl game. That would leave them with $2.5M if they went to the BCS, slightly better than Ohio St. Obviously, they would barely break even if they went to a non-BCS game considering the BCS revenue plus whatever bowl revenue they receive. I found this to be helpful:


Notre Dame, during the three years of this BCS contract, has had income revenues of $7.85 million—$4.5 million (2006) + $1.3 (2007) + $1.3 + $750,000 from the Hawaii Bowl (2008).

Expenses run from $2-2.5 million per bowl game, more for Hawaii. Notre Dame’s estimated football expenses from two bowl trips were about $4.5 million, conservatively.

So, their profits from the BCS contract and bowl appearances were probably about $3.35 million for three years total, averaging $1.1 million per year.

This somewhat supports your argument although a one million dollar difference might not be enough considering Notre Dame's desired independence and that fact that they expect to be in the BCS every year, generating huge paydays.

Regardless, given the fact that Notre Dame's next TV deal will probably be less lucrative it would be in their best interests long term to join a conference. Given the (apparent) Big Ten resistance to a special deal for Notre Dame, it might make sense for them to join the Big East in a couple years with a sweet heart deal.

Sorry, I'm not a Notre Dame fan, just trying to play devil's advocate and present their side of the deal.

Sea Ray
03-21-2010, 05:52 PM
As far as the Bowls are concerned, ND is golden. They make $4.5mill if they make the BCS and $1.3mill if they don't. That $1.3mill is just a few dimes less than the Big Ten payout of $2.073mill. ND has a very lucrative TV deal plus they can sell a lot of merchandise. No one has shown yet where ND gets a good financial deal for moving to the Big Ten.

It's too early to say that their next TV contract will be for less money. As of right now ND is set financially right where they are.

The Big Ten has made it clear that the existing teams are not going to take a pay cut by adding a 12th team so that says that the new B10 team will not be guaranteed an equal share of the BCS or TV contract.

For these reasons, ND is the least likely team to join the Big 10.

Sea Ray
03-21-2010, 05:55 PM
If we're only talking long-term finances, I don't think there is any question that ND would be better off in the Big Ten.

Oh I think there's a question...a big question.

I'll put it this way: there's not a team out there that would benefit less from a move to the Big Ten than Notre Dame. I could make a better case financially for any other team in the country to join the Big Ten than ND

OUReds
03-21-2010, 06:03 PM
Oh I think there's a question...a big question.

I'll put it this way: there's not a team out there that would benefit less from a move to the Big Ten than Notre Dame. I could make a better case financially for any other team in the country to join the Big Ten than ND

Well sure, the other teams make less money, so obviously they would have more to gain.

However, if the question is "would Notre Dame make more money in the long term by join the Big Ten then remaining independent or joining the Big East" then I still think the answer is most assuredly yes.

Change the question to "Can Notre Dame make enough money to remain competitive as an elite BSC program without joining the Big Ten" and the answer becomes a lot murkier.

joshnky
03-21-2010, 07:17 PM
Well sure, the other teams make less money, so obviously they would have more to gain.

However, if the question is "would Notre Dame make more money in the long term by join the Big Ten then remaining independent or joining the Big East" then I still think the answer is most assuredly yes.

Change the question to "Can Notre Dame make enough money to remain competitive as an elite BSC program without joining the Big Ten" and the answer becomes a lot murkier.

I'd contend that they might be able to make more money in the Big East because that conference might be willing to make them their flagship program while the Big Ten is making comments like they'll have to earn their spot.

Chip R
03-21-2010, 07:38 PM
I'd contend that they might be able to make more money in the Big East because that conference might be willing to make them their flagship program while the Big Ten is making comments like they'll have to earn their spot.

I would think that if ND joins a conference, it's going to be the conference that gives them the best deal. Why would they even think about joining the Big 10 if they don't get their share of money for 2-3 years?

OUReds
03-21-2010, 08:33 PM
I'd contend that they might be able to make more money in the Big East because that conference might be willing to make them their flagship program while the Big Ten is making comments like they'll have to earn their spot.

I hear ya, but too much is being made of the Alvarez quote.

If ND wants in, they're not going to spend any time as a junior member. The Big Ten would see instant benefit from adding a program like ND, and they know that.

Yachtzee
03-21-2010, 10:12 PM
I don't know that ND joining the Big East for football would be such a good deal, what with the Big 10 and other conferences looking to expand. I suspect the premier Big East football programs are most attractive to other conferences looking to expand. If ND waits around for someone to come banging on their door, they could end up in a Big East that has to seek out CUSA or MAC teams to remain a football conference. As has been stated earlier, there is a lot of tension in the Big East as it has too many basketball-only schools and not enough quality football teams. I could see the next iteration of the BCS, if it isn't dumped for a playoff, would involve downgrading the Big East and/or an independent ND to a sort of junior status, in which they compete for BCS bids with conferences like the WAC and CUSA for spots and get a reduced share, since they aren't bringing nearly as much to the table as the Big 10, SEC, PAC 10 and the ACC.

If the Big 10 expands, I expected it to start a chain reaction of conference switches, whichever conference loses a team or teams to the Big 10 is going to turn around and look to pull another team in from another conference. The Big 10 either gets teams from the Big East directly or pulls in a team from another conference, which then goes after the Big East to fill slots. I imagine the Big 10, SEC or ACC would all look like pretty good options for a top Big East program.

Sea Ray
03-21-2010, 11:00 PM
http://ncaafootball.fanhouse.com/2009/06/15/as-notre-dames-tv-money-dwindles-so-too-should-its-independenc/

Here is a pretty good article on the situation and some of the financials.

I looked at several outlets and although there aren't official numbers from any source I found 6 sources that said ND is paid about $9M and one that said they are paid $15M.

And to the other posters point about the BCS payments it is a simple conference vs. independent argument. Indiana, Northwestern, etc. are paid by the BCS. The Big 10 gets money from the BCS every year and splits it up so even if they miss a bowl game (which they usually do) they are going to get paid and most years that is going to be more (probably a lot more) than ND gets paid. BCS games usually pay between $16-19M and the Big 10 has gotten 2 bids most years. So lets say worst case that's $32M to split between 11 schools or just a shade under $3M. That is twice what ND gets plus what the other 5 or 6 schools payouts for not playing a bowl game.

Search for "Notre Dame, NBC, $15 million" and you'll get far more than one site that mentions that number.

Sea Ray
03-21-2010, 11:08 PM
I don't know that ND joining the Big East for football would be such a good deal, what with the Big 10 and other conferences looking to expand. I suspect the premier Big East football programs are most attractive to other conferences looking to expand. If ND waits around for someone to come banging on their door, they could end up in a Big East that has to seek out CUSA or MAC teams to remain a football conference. As has been stated earlier, there is a lot of tension in the Big East as it has too many basketball-only schools and not enough quality football teams. I could see the next iteration of the BCS, if it isn't dumped for a playoff, would involve downgrading the Big East and/or an independent ND to a sort of junior status, in which they compete for BCS bids with conferences like the WAC and CUSA for spots and get a reduced share, since they aren't bringing nearly as much to the table as the Big 10, SEC, PAC 10 and the ACC.

If the Big 10 expands, I expected it to start a chain reaction of conference switches, whichever conference loses a team or teams to the Big 10 is going to turn around and look to pull another team in from another conference. The Big 10 either gets teams from the Big East directly or pulls in a team from another conference, which then goes after the Big East to fill slots. I imagine the Big 10, SEC or ACC would all look like pretty good options for a top Big East program.


You've hit on the very issue that may sway ND to give up its independence: the instability of the Big East

The Big East cannot continue indefinitely the way it is. If it devolves into something undesirable for ND then they may consider joining a conference in football.

It may come down to how much the Big Ten wants ND. They'll have to make ND a much better deal than they would Rutgers. It's kind of like when you're car shopping. Do you want to write a check for a Cadillac or a Lumina?

How badly does the Big Ten want ND?

joshnky
03-22-2010, 06:02 AM
You've hit on the very issue that may sway ND to give up its independence: the instability of the Big East

The Big East cannot continue indefinitely the way it is. If it devolves into something undesirable for ND then they may consider joining a conference in football.

Crazy thought. If the Big East picked up Notre Dame, I wonder if they could convince Penn St to make a move. They've made no secret of the fact that they want Pitt to be in their conference and their ties to the Big Ten aren't as strong as others. That would likely make the Big East a conference comparable to the Big Ten in football and you would expect that they could reach a mega-TV deal with the north east markets and Notre Dame as the main draw.

OUReds
03-22-2010, 10:51 AM
Crazy thought. If the Big East picked up Notre Dame, I wonder if they could convince Penn St to make a move. They've made no secret of the fact that they want Pitt to be in their conference and their ties to the Big Ten aren't as strong as others. That would likely make the Big East a conference comparable to the Big Ten in football and you would expect that they could reach a mega-TV deal with the north east markets and Notre Dame as the main draw.

The Big Ten is a money making machine rivaled only by the SEC. There is absolutely zero chance of anyone voluntarily leaving the conference for any reason, let alone to go to the Big East.

Why would they go somewhere to possibly get a deal they already have?

joshnky
03-22-2010, 10:58 AM
The Big Ten is a money making machine rivaled only by the SEC. There is absolutely zero chance of anyone voluntarily leaving the conference for any reason, let alone to go to the Big East.

Why would they go somewhere to possibly get a deal they already have?

I was just throwing out a hypothetical situation. I would suggest that a Big East with Penn St and Notre Dame would rival a Big Ten minus Penn St as a major money maker. The TV deal would likely be comparable and the Big East would probably have at least as good of chance as the Big Ten of a second BCS berth.

OUReds
03-22-2010, 11:41 AM
I was just throwing out a hypothetical situation. I would suggest that a Big East with Penn St and Notre Dame would rival a Big Ten minus Penn St as a major money maker. The TV deal would likely be comparable and the Big East would probably have at least as good of chance as the Big Ten of a second BCS berth.

Since we're talking hypotheticals, Why stop there? Poach Florida and Florida State from the SEC and ACC and the Big East would really be cooking with gas!

It's just not going to happen.

redsbuckeye
03-22-2010, 02:32 PM
I was just throwing out a hypothetical situation. I would suggest that a Big East with Penn St and Notre Dame would rival a Big Ten minus Penn St as a major money maker. The TV deal would likely be comparable and the Big East would probably have at least as good of chance as the Big Ten of a second BCS berth.

That version of the Big East might as well just be called the Penn St. and Notre Dame conference (with sideshow Pitt). The market the Big East occupies more or less just isn't a college football market. We've already seen that Syracuse and Rutgers aren't really capturing the New York City market at all. Pro sports are dominant in the Northeast and West Virginia just is too small of a market. So you've got the national ND fanbase and Pennsylvania. That's a good start, but when you consider the Big 10 has a stranglehold on at least 5 states, then you realize that a TV network isn't going to want to offer up money comparable to a Big 10 deal.

Rutgers not being a real player in the NYC market is why I think they'll be on the outside looking in.

Caveat Emperor
03-22-2010, 03:17 PM
Since we're talking hypotheticals, Why stop there? Poach Florida and Florida State from the SEC and ACC and the Big East would really be cooking with gas!

It's just not going to happen.

If the money is right, it's a situation (ND + PSU to the Big East) that's just as likely as any of the others being thrown about around here. It's all speculation -- and by all indications (if you believe what comes out of Swarbrick's mouth), Notre Dame is about as likely to join the B10 as Florida is to join the BE anyway.

OUReds
03-22-2010, 03:58 PM
If the money is right, it's a situation (ND + PSU to the Big East) that's just as likely as any of the others being thrown about around here. It's all speculation -- and by all indications (if you believe what comes out of Swarbrick's mouth), Notre Dame is about as likely to join the B10 as Florida is to join the BE anyway.

It's as likely that an independent ND will join the Big Ten as Florida is to leave the SEC and join the Big Ten or, as was speculated, Penn State would leave the Big Ten and join the Big East?

No offense, but no.

The Big Ten wants a 12th team so they can increase revenue by adding a championship game. Sooner or later, it's going to happen. It isn't just idle speculation like wondering what would happen if Florida were to decide to join the WAC.

They're going to poach someone, and it will potentially have wide ranging implications.

As far as what is coming out of Alvarez or Swarbrick's mouth, none of it matters. It's all just posturing. The programs will follow the money like they always do.

bucksfan2
03-22-2010, 04:44 PM
It's as likely that an independent ND will join the Big Ten as Florida is to leave the SEC and join the Big Ten or, as was speculated, Penn State would leave the Big Ten and join the Big East?

No offense, but no.

The Big Ten wants a 12th team so they can increase revenue by adding a championship game. Sooner or later, it's going to happen. It isn't just idle speculation like wondering what would happen if Florida were to decide to join the WAC.

They're going to poach someone, and it will potentially have wide ranging implications.

As far as what is coming out of Alvarez or Swarbrick's mouth, none of it matters. It's all just posturing. The programs will follow the money like they always do.

When the ACC expanded their conference they didn't go after bottom feeders, they went after heavy hitters. They went after Miami and Va. Tech, and got BC as a bonus.

If the Big 10 expands I see them getting an impact school. While there has been a lot of speculation about Rutgers, Pitt, Missouri and Syracuse I just don't see it. The Big 10 is the cash cow conference in today's landscape. The BTN is pretty much a must in the Midwest, and while it had some flaws at the start, it has worked out a lot of its kinks. I don't think Rutgers, Pitt, Missouri, or Syracuse get them into any new market any more than they already are in. As mentioned before both Syracuse and Rutgers really don't have much of the New York market. I don't think Pitt will generate much that PSU already has. And what does Missouri bring other than the StL market?

ND is #1 right now because it not only brings Chicago, but it also brings in the entire country. You will see the BTN picked up by cable providers all over the country. Texas which also was discussed, doesn't make much geographic sense, brings the BTN to the state of Texas.

Over the course of the next 5 years I think you will see the Pac 10 add to 12 teams as well as the Big 10. I also think you may see a consolidation of the Mountain West as well as an automatic BCS berth with the right teams added. As Swarbrick has mentioned before he does worry about conference additions and consolidation and doesn't want to get left out.

redsbuckeye
03-23-2010, 08:59 AM
If the money is right, it's a situation (ND + PSU to the Big East) that's just as likely as any of the others being thrown about around here. It's all speculation -- and by all indications (if you believe what comes out of Swarbrick's mouth), Notre Dame is about as likely to join the B10 as Florida is to join the BE anyway.

While I agree that money can make any situation happen, that there would be money for such a move (ND and PSU to Big East) is a practical impossibility.

Chip R
04-18-2010, 02:38 PM
Looks like they are stepping things up and perhaps not stopping at 12.

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/04/big-ten-reps-to-talk-expansion-in-dc-on-sunday.html

paintmered
04-18-2010, 02:57 PM
Looks like they are stepping things up and perhaps not stopping at 12.

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/04/big-ten-reps-to-talk-expansion-in-dc-on-sunday.html

Adios, Big East. :(

Unassisted
04-18-2010, 07:09 PM
Looks like they are stepping things up and perhaps not stopping at 12.

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/04/big-ten-reps-to-talk-expansion-in-dc-on-sunday.htmlThat's really intriguing... Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Rutgers, Notre Dame AND an unnamed 5th, 6th and 7th school. What a gauntlet the conference tournament would be for men's basketball!

Hoosier Red
04-18-2010, 07:49 PM
My guess is it would be Notre Dame as a 12th team or three or five teams from another conference.

Caveat Emperor
04-18-2010, 08:26 PM
Adios, Big East. :(

Pretty much.

Adios to Cincinnati too, at least as a big-time sports player, if this comes to pass. They'll have to hook back on with C-USA or possibly the MAC if this huge shuffle comes to pass.

Mike Thomas needs to be out, right now, working on an exit strategy for UC if all this comes to pass. If they can't buy their way into another conference, they need to at least consider forming up with some other teams (who might not necessarily be geographic "fits") to see if they can't create a better option for themselves.

KronoRed
04-18-2010, 08:30 PM
The WAC tried 16 teams and it was a failure, 12 is perfect, 14 would be borderline but acceptable if there were 9 conference games.

paintmered
04-18-2010, 08:47 PM
Pretty much.

Adios to Cincinnati too, at least as a big-time sports player, if this comes to pass. They'll have to hook back on with C-USA or possibly the MAC if this huge shuffle comes to pass.

Mike Thomas needs to be out, right now, working on an exit strategy for UC if all this comes to pass. If they can't buy their way into another conference, they need to at least consider forming up with some other teams (who might not necessarily be geographic "fits") to see if they can't create a better option for themselves.

The only hope for the conference to retain its automatic BCS bid (and really, that's what this is all about) is for the remaining five to break off from the basketball-only schools. Then add TCU, Memphis, UCF, East Carolina and possibly Temple. That would actually be a better football conference than the current Big East structure. Syracuse is a far cry from what they used to be and Rutgers has been a poseur for the last five years.

But unless something crazy happens, and the remaining five get assumed into other BCS conferences, UC could very easily find itself in another pseudo C-USA situation. I can't fathom how devastating it would be for UC to have a seat at the BCS table one day and the MAC the next.

The next step is for the BCS conferences to break off completely from the NCAA and form their own organization. My guess is this happens within the next five years.

MWM
04-18-2010, 11:04 PM
What a colossally horrendous idea. I have yet to meet a B10 fan who thinks this is a good idea. Adding one team, good idea. Adding a bunch, awful!

LoganBuck
04-18-2010, 11:36 PM
What a colossally horrendous idea. I have yet to meet a B10 fan who thinks this is a good idea. Adding one team, good idea. Adding a bunch, awful!

+1

bucksfan2
04-19-2010, 10:33 AM
What a colossally horrendous idea. I have yet to meet a B10 fan who thinks this is a good idea. Adding one team, good idea. Adding a bunch, awful!

I really wonder if they are doing this to force ND's hand. ND said they want to stay independent but if more leagues start to add teams, combine, etc. they will be forced to do something. If the Big 10 adds teams that will mean another conference will add teams to compensate. I also think that if the Big 10 adds the Pac 10 will add.

Cedric
04-19-2010, 11:33 AM
I really believe this is all hype to try and force ND into joining now.

That or possibly adding Syracuse, Mizzou, and Pitt and going with 14 teams.

Chip R
04-19-2010, 12:03 PM
I really believe this is all hype to try and force ND into joining now.

That or possibly adding Syracuse, Mizzou, and Pitt and going with 14 teams.

I could see ND declining if they are going to add several more teams. That's going to dilute the money they will make. Sharing it with 11 other teams is one thing but with 13-15 others?

Yachtzee
04-19-2010, 11:12 PM
I could see ND declining if they are going to add several more teams. That's going to dilute the money they will make. Sharing it with 11 other teams is one thing but with 13-15 others?

Or it could be that adding more teams gives the Big 10 a stronger hand to play when it comes to negotiations with cable companies for carriage of the Big 10 Network, meaning more money for all teams involved.

Unassisted
04-20-2010, 01:14 AM
Bob Hunter commentary: It's time for Big Ten to force Irish's hand (http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2010/04/19/its-time-for-big-ten-to-force-irishs-hand.html?sid=101) :)

Unassisted
04-20-2010, 01:15 AM
Or it could be that adding more teams gives the Big 10 a stronger hand to play when it comes to negotiations with cable companies for carriage of the Big 10 Network, meaning more money for all teams involved.With 16 teams, there might be enough games at one time to fill two networks. :eek:

Mario-Rijo
04-20-2010, 02:16 AM
+1

And another 1.

Redsfaithful
04-20-2010, 12:45 PM
I find this all pretty exciting, the more upheaval I figure the more chance the BCS might die. I'd really like to see a college football playoff in my lifetime.

Chip R
04-20-2010, 12:47 PM
Collin Cowherd said that U Conn may be in play.

Slyder
04-20-2010, 01:15 PM
Collin Cowherd said that U Conn may be in play.

Thats one that would surprise me. If the Big 10 is tired of waiting on Notre Dame to crap or get off the pot and go with the multi school plan WVU had better be BEGGING to not get left out and get into the SEC.

WVU Could thrive in the SEC, what we lack in TV market we make up in travel and national ratings.

If ND doesnt want to make a decision....

NCAA works to get it to 14 for championship games...

ACC takes Syracuse and Louisville
SEC takes WVU and Cincy/ECU maybe?
Big 10 takes Pitt, UConn, Rutgers
USF gets the hose most likely.

Thoughts of maybe that happening?

Cedric
04-20-2010, 01:16 PM
Thats one that would surprise me. If the Big 10 is tired of waiting on Notre Dame to crap or get off the pot and go with the multi school plan WVU had better be BEGGING to not get left out and get into the SEC.

WVU Could thrive in the SEC, what we lack in TV market we make up in travel and national ratings.

If ND doesnt want to make a decision....

NCAA works to get it to 14 for championship games...

ACC takes Syracuse and Louisville
SEC takes WVU and Cincy/ECU maybe?
Big 10 takes Pitt, UConn, Rutgers
USF gets the hose most likely.

Thoughts of maybe that happening?

There is NO way in hell that the SEC would take UC or ECU. They would go after Big 12 teams before those two.

Slyder
04-20-2010, 01:26 PM
There is NO way in hell that the SEC would take UC or ECU. They would go after Big 12 teams before those two.

My thought process is NCAA tries to "push" the other conferences to absorb the rest of the Big East so as to limit the pain/bad press from it? Would Cincy be of any interest/use for the Big 12?

Chip R
04-20-2010, 01:33 PM
My thought process is NCAA tries to "push" the other conferences to absorb the rest of the Big East so as to limit the pain/bad press from it? Would Cincy be of any interest/use for the Big 12?


That's quite a ways away from the other teams. I'd guess the Big 12 would look south or west before they looked east. The closest Big 12 school to UC would be Missouri - if they decide to stay in the Big 12.

LoganBuck
04-20-2010, 01:35 PM
Cowherd also said that the Pac 10 would be in a position where it would need to respond as well. Because they would then be the little sister, of the BCS conferences. The Pac 10 would most likely grab Utah (he called that a done deal) and Colorado. The Big 12 would likely add TCU, and the Big East schools are going to get left holding the bag when the music stops.

joshnky
04-20-2010, 01:43 PM
WVU Could thrive in the SEC, what we lack in TV market we make up in travel and national ratings.

If ND doesnt want to make a decision....

NCAA works to get it to 14 for championship games...

ACC takes Syracuse and Louisville
SEC takes WVU and Cincy/ECU maybe?
Big 10 takes Pitt, UConn, Rutgers
USF gets the hose most likely.

Thoughts of maybe that happening?

I think Louisville to the SEC makes more since than WVU. Better facilities, location, and more money. In addition to UK, they have a decent history playing Florida and Tennessee in basketball. However, I think the SEC won't want to mess with success and UK would likely be against the UofL addition anyway. Although, the addition of WVU and UofL certainly would help the basketball conference while not significantly changing the football conference.

Really, if the Big East falls apart Louisville will be in trouble although they will be attractive if the ACC decides to expand. Cincinnati will be the school in the most trouble. Recent football success aside, they compare well with Memphis and CUSA given their poor facilities and lack of revenue.

Hoosier Red
04-20-2010, 02:22 PM
Collin Cowherd said that U Conn may be in play.

After reading this column and everything else I've read/heard.
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/21083956

I think the Big Ten is looking for one of the following scenarios:

1) Notre Dame joins by itself
- Self Explanatory

2) Rutgers, Syracuse, and one more Big East school probably Pitt or UConn join and take the conference to 14 teams.
- None of these teams make the Big Ten substantially better on their own, getting all three pretty much guarantees the NYC market, the New Jersey market, and much of the northeast.

3) Missouri joins by itself
- Doesn't bring much star power, but it's a good fit geographically, solidifies the St. Louis market, and allows the Big Ten to peer south in the future if they want.

4)Five schools are added, (Syracuse, Rutgers, Mizzou and probably one more from the Big East and one more from the Big 12)
- This in my opinion is the worst option for the Big 10 and for everyone else. Completely disrupts the entire conference landscape, doesn't bring in any true stars (unless they can get Nebraska as the second Big 12 team.)

WVRed
04-20-2010, 02:59 PM
I think Louisville to the SEC makes more since than WVU. Better facilities, location, and more money. In addition to UK, they have a decent history playing Florida and Tennessee in basketball. However, I think the SEC won't want to mess with success and UK would likely be against the UofL addition anyway. Although, the addition of WVU and UofL certainly would help the basketball conference while not significantly changing the football conference.

Really, if the Big East falls apart Louisville will be in trouble although they will be attractive if the ACC decides to expand. Cincinnati will be the school in the most trouble. Recent football success aside, they compare well with Memphis and CUSA given their poor facilities and lack of revenue.

If I had to take two teams to the SEC, it would be Louisville and WVU.

SEC East:
Kentucky
West Virginia
Florida
Georgia
South Carolina
Tennessee
Vanderbilt

SEC West:
Louisville
Arkansas
Alabama
Auburn
LSU
Ole Miss
Mississippi State

Could also put Louisville in the SEC East and move Vandy to the SEC West.

Caveat Emperor
04-20-2010, 03:19 PM
I find this all pretty exciting, the more upheaval I figure the more chance the BCS might die. I'd really like to see a college football playoff in my lifetime.

I see exactly the opposite -- my guess is that you're far more likely to see the BCS schools (ACC / Big 10 / Big 12 / SEC / Pac 10) branch off from the NCAA and form their own seperate entity, kind of a Division I+.

BCS schools would only play other BCS schools. At the end of the season, bowl games would match BCS schools against one another and there would be national title game between the #1 BCS school and the #2 BCS School (as voted on by the BCS Harris Poll and BCS Coaches Poll).

I expect that to happen within the next 5-10 years, actually.

Caveat Emperor
04-20-2010, 03:34 PM
Really, if the Big East falls apart Louisville will be in trouble although they will be attractive if the ACC decides to expand. Cincinnati will be the school in the most trouble. Recent football success aside, they compare well with Memphis and CUSA given their poor facilities and lack of revenue.

If the Big East collapses (really starting to seem like an inevitability), my guess is that it will leave Cincinnati, Louisville, and South Florida holding the bag. The only two conferences that would work geographically for them would be the SEC (all 3) and the ACC (USF) -- and I don't think either conference would be eager about bringing any of them on board.

The only move UC would have, at that point, would be to form up with as many other "left out" programs as possible (Louisville, USF, TCU, Boise State, Utah, BYU) and attempt to form some odd combination of high-level athletics schools and try to negotiate a seat at the BCS table.

The other options, which is probably the nightmare scenario, would be to get together with some C-USA programs and some MAC programs to form a regional conference (of, say: Cincinnati, Louisville, Toledo, Ohio University, Marshall, Memphis, East Carolina, Temple, and one other) that could compete, athletically, at a slightly higher level than just joining C-USA or the MAC and also limit travel costs. Heck, you could also try and poach off 5 or 6 top mid-major basketball programs (Xavier, Dayton, Butler, etc.) from the region and form a "Big Midwest" conference.

Neither option is anything less than a death sentence for UC athletics as we know them, though.

LoganBuck
04-20-2010, 03:45 PM
With UC hemorrhaging cash in its athletic department this isn't good. I think what CE lays out is more of a realistic outcome if this all comes to fruition.