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Sea Ray
12-14-2009, 03:41 PM
This offense has a huge problem with its passing game.

Problem #1 can't be fixed right away and that's the coaching. I want to see both Bratkowski and the receivers coach Mike Sheppard gone. All of our WRs have underachieved this year except for Chad. Out of Caldwell, Coles, Purify, Simpson and Cosby this team can't find a decent #2 to Chad. They can't all suck. Maybe there's a coaching component.

Problem #2 is the O-line. This is not a pass blocking O-line. Lines rarely can do both and this one is a run blocking line and that's the way it'll stay until we get a more athletic LT.

However Palmer's sacks are not only due to the line. They're due to his WRs not getting open and the defenses he's facing stacking the line.

So for the immediate future I propose de-activating Lavernes Coles. What can it hurt? Then activate Jerome Simpson and let's see him on the field. We need help at WR and it's time he contribute.

Then I want to see some plays designed with Purify and Simpson as the primary receivers. It's there for the taking. Defenses are keying on Chad.

Bratkowski is to blame for the predictable playcalling and the lack of discipline (penalties) of this offense. You saw what happened when he threw a new play out there yesterday on our only TD. Why can't we see more of that? A couple years ago we beat the Ravens on a flea flicker. Why haven't we seen the play again?

The Operator
12-14-2009, 03:57 PM
I've wanted Bratkowski gone since the 2006 season.

No matter what style of offense they run, he gets them dug into a predictable rut and teams might as well be in the huddle at times. Sadly, if they've stuck with him this long, I'm really not optimistic that they'll make a change after this season, especially since they're likely to make the playoffs.

I agree about the receivers too, they say Chad is the hardest worker and most self driven (when he isn't sulking or holding out) one on the team so it half makes me wonder if his success is due more to his own self discipline in preparing than any coaching help. Because all of the other receivers are struggling.

I'm also worrying about Carson's arm. On the throws he has made lately half of them haven't been anywhere near the receiver and at time they just have a complete lack of "zip" on them that you expect from Carson. I hope they didn't make a mistake by not having him get Tommy John Surgery.

KoryMac5
12-14-2009, 05:42 PM
I don't think Carson and Coles have developed a good feel for each other yet as they have only been together for 1 season. I too am very disappointed in Coles as we are paying him 7 million for what 33 catches. However deactivating him would be a poor move as Coles is viewed positively by other players and is a leader in the locker room.

I would like to see some hurry up and no huddle sets for the Bengals to fix things. Still no play action from Carson and with the way he is handing off that may be the issue. Also Carson's balls especially on sideline throws don't have the zip they once had. He says his elbow is fine but I am starting to wonder.

How big of a bust is Simpson who basically hasn't gotten on the field in 2 seasons.

Sea Ray
12-14-2009, 05:46 PM
I don't think Carson and Coles have developed a good feel for each other yet as they have only been together for 1 season. I too am very disappointed in Coles as we are paying him 7 million for what 33 catches. However deactivating him would be a poor move as Coles is viewed positively by other players and is a leader in the locker room.

I would like to see some hurry up and no huddle sets for the Bengals to fix things. Still no play action from Carson and with the way he is handing off that may be the issue. Also Carson's balls especially on sideline throws don't have the zip they once had. He says his elbow is fine but I am starting to wonder.

How big of a bust is Simpson who basically hasn't gotten on the field in 2 seasons.


I think benching Coles sends a message of accountabilty to the rest of the team. "We don't care how long you've been in the league or how much you make; if you don't produce you're benched".

If Simpson can't contribute as of now then they ought to cut him.

I wonder if any other healthy non rookie has been inactive all year?

KoryMac5
12-14-2009, 05:59 PM
I think another thing that we have been hitting on for a few weeks is predictability. The fact of the matter is if you put all of us Bengal fans in a room to watch a game we could tell you the play Brat is going to run before the snap of the ball. You gotta figure that if we can do that than other teams with a lot of tape could do the same thing.

I haven't seen Palmer throw the long ball in a while makes me think his elbow is still in rough shape. Brat said today he doesn't think Plamer's elbow is bad yet the evidence is pretty clear and other teams pick up on it as well.

I can understand where SeaRay is coming from and I think if Henry was still here Coles would be the third unfortunately we don't have anyone else that is getting open consistently besides Chad. There has to be a reason that Coles and Caldwell can't find any room underneath. I think I know the answer, Carson can't throw deep anymore.

Playadlc
12-14-2009, 06:11 PM
Here are a couple things I would do if I was running this team:

*Get the running backs more involved in the passing game other than screens and check downs. Put Leonard in at fullback on some sets and run some stuff for him. He is capable to lead block for Ced, so we wouldn't have to run all pass plays out of a set like this. Maybe even line up Leonard in the slot a couple times.

*Take more shots deep. I understand that in order for us to do this we have to keep about 7 guys in to block, but do it anyways. I don't care if Ocho/Coles are in double coverage, throw it anyways. At least make the defense aware of the fact that we will throw it long on occasion.

*If a player commits a mental penalty (false starts, late hits, offsides, face masks) make them run about 5 miles. These penalties have to stop because we are not good enough to overcome them.

*Take the wraps off of Jerome Simpson. Right now at WR, we basically have Chad an no one else. Coles didn't even have a catch Sunday and I'm not even sure if a ball was thrown his way. Marvin says Simpson has some skills, but if he can't get into the rotation now, I doubt he will ever be able to.

*Lastly, we have to get more creative. There are a lot more things we can do on offense to mask our weak pass-blocking O-line. Slants (why we don't run more of these is a complete mystery to me), draws (will at least keep the D honest), TE screens, fake reverses, and so on and so forth. Outside of Chad, the Bengals don't have the players at wide receiver that can consistently beat people man on man. We just don't have the talent at that position. We have to do some things that are going to confuse the defense. Otherwise, I don't see us getting over this hump offensively.

Redhook
12-14-2009, 08:02 PM
All of these great ideas make too much sense. There's no way Bratkowski could comprehend any of it.

George Foster
12-15-2009, 12:45 AM
Chris Henry was the 1st string receiver for a reason. I think there is a direct correlation. He got "open" more than the bench wormers we are throwing to now. The defense respected him more, thus opening up the running game and eliminating the double teams of Chad.

This team misses Chris Henry.

cincrazy
12-15-2009, 01:00 AM
I don't think there's a simple fix to this. I don't like Bratkowski as offensive coordinator, but I don't think he's so ignorant at his job that a couple of people on a message board can fix the problem, yet he can't (not taking a shot at any of you, just stating the man isn't THAT stupid).

I don't think it's a matter of Palmer being unable to throw deep. He can still throw deep, he just has no deep threats. I wouldn't even classify Chad as a pure deep threat anymore. Also, the line can't block long enough for Palmer to make a seven step drop and throw deep.

Carson certainly should take some of the blame here, but there's plenty of blame to go around. This passing game is a train wreck.

Keep in mind, when they drafted Jerome Simpson in the 2nd round, DeSean Jackson from Cal was available, among others. How's that pick looking?

The Operator
12-15-2009, 01:33 AM
Keep in mind, when they drafted Jerome Simpson in the 2nd round, DeSean Jackson from Cal was available, among others. How's that pick looking?

It's looking like a Bengals pick. What else can we expect?

The Operator
12-15-2009, 01:36 AM
Apparently even Mikey is asking questions about Palmer's health lately, but according to Carson his elbow is "101 percent". I'm still not at ease about it, I never like when players elect to skip surgery for something like elbow ligament damage. That is something that can haunt you and make you eventually do the surgery anyway.

Also, I though this little tidbit from Carson was interesting:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4743806

"My elbow is 101 percent," Palmer told ESPN. "My body is great. The Bengals are not protecting me. We went into a tough place [Minnesota] to play and laid an egg. We realize that as a team, an offense, a passing offense and we will bounce back in the passing game. There's nothing wrong with my arm and we're going to come out firing this week."

I guess we aren't the only ones who notice how awful this line is at pass blocking.

CTA513
12-15-2009, 01:45 AM
Apparently even Mikey is asking questions about Palmer's health lately, but according to Carson his elbow is "101 percent". I'm still not at ease about it, I never like when players elect to skip surgery for something like elbow ligament damage. That is something that can haunt you and make you eventually do the surgery anyway.

Also, I though this little tidbit from Carson was interesting:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4743806


I guess we aren't the only ones who notice how awful this line is at pass blocking.

I didn't read the article but he might be talking about how people are saying they aren't throwing as much because they are trying to protect his elbow.

The Operator
12-15-2009, 01:48 AM
I hadn't thought of it in that way. You could definitely be right, and it would make more sense with his use of "Bengals" instead of "line".

You're probably right.

bucksfan2
12-15-2009, 09:46 AM
I don't think there's a simple fix to this. I don't like Bratkowski as offensive coordinator, but I don't think he's so ignorant at his job that a couple of people on a message board can fix the problem, yet he can't (not taking a shot at any of you, just stating the man isn't THAT stupid).

You don't say, Brat isn't stupid. Brat was awful good in 05 when the Bengals had the dynamic offense.


I don't think it's a matter of Palmer being unable to throw deep. He can still throw deep, he just has no deep threats. I wouldn't even classify Chad as a pure deep threat anymore. Also, the line can't block long enough for Palmer to make a seven step drop and throw deep.

Carson certainly should take some of the blame here, but there's plenty of blame to go around. This passing game is a train wreck.

The passing game is a train wreck for a number of reasons. I think the OLine is a good run blocking line but not a good passing line. Carson has been off all season. He has had happy feet more than I have ever seen. He is better on the move but just hasn't played like a top 10 QB. Chad has been good this season, he just can't stretch the field like he used to. The loss of Chris Henry, who many dismissed, has proven to be rather large.


Keep in mind, when they drafted Jerome Simpson in the 2nd round, DeSean Jackson from Cal was available, among others. How's that pick looking?

I hate this argument. Its the freakin NFL draft, everything is a crap shoot. There were 31 teams that passed on Jackson and some that passed on him twice. I bet there are 30 teams out there that wished they would have used one of their first 5 rounds of picks to select Tom Brady. I wonder how many teams who passed on Maualuga would want to spend a late 1st round or early 2nd round pick on him now. Heck the Bengals could probably use a do over this season in selecting Harvin instead of Andre Smith.

Sea Ray
12-15-2009, 10:26 AM
I think another thing that we have been hitting on for a few weeks is predictability. The fact of the matter is if you put all of us Bengal fans in a room to watch a game we could tell you the play Brat is going to run before the snap of the ball. You gotta figure that if we can do that than other teams with a lot of tape could do the same thing.

I haven't seen Palmer throw the long ball in a while makes me think his elbow is still in rough shape. Brat said today he doesn't think Plamer's elbow is bad yet the evidence is pretty clear and other teams pick up on it as well.

I can understand where SeaRay is coming from and I think if Henry was still here Coles would be the third unfortunately we don't have anyone else that is getting open consistently besides Chad. There has to be a reason that Coles and Caldwell can't find any room underneath. I think I know the answer, Carson can't throw deep anymore.


Bratkowski's philosophy is what's at fault here in regards to predictability. His thinking is "we're good and you can't stop us even if you know what we're going to do. We're going to dictate to you , not the other way around."

I totally disagree with that. I say this is the NFL and the guys on the other side of the ball aren't slouches. I agree with the Bill Walsh way of thinking, "you take what the defense gives you."

I don't think Palmer's arm is the problem. Bengal receivers just aren't being sent deep nor was Chris Henry early in the year.

Sea Ray
12-15-2009, 10:29 AM
Chris Henry was the 1st string receiver for a reason. I think there is a direct correlation. He got "open" more than the bench wormers we are throwing to now. The defense respected him more, thus opening up the running game and eliminating the double teams of Chad.

This team misses Chris Henry.

Marvin disagrees with you. After he got hurt, Marvin was asked about replacing him and Marvin answered by saying something to the effect of "so we lose our #4 WR, big deal".

GIDP
12-15-2009, 11:17 AM
I refuse to believe Palmer is healed.

cincrazy
12-15-2009, 02:33 PM
You don't say, Brat isn't stupid. Brat was awful good in 05 when the Bengals had the dynamic offense.



The passing game is a train wreck for a number of reasons. I think the OLine is a good run blocking line but not a good passing line. Carson has been off all season. He has had happy feet more than I have ever seen. He is better on the move but just hasn't played like a top 10 QB. Chad has been good this season, he just can't stretch the field like he used to. The loss of Chris Henry, who many dismissed, has proven to be rather large.



I hate this argument. Its the freakin NFL draft, everything is a crap shoot. There were 31 teams that passed on Jackson and some that passed on him twice. I bet there are 30 teams out there that wished they would have used one of their first 5 rounds of picks to select Tom Brady. I wonder how many teams who passed on Maualuga would want to spend a late 1st round or early 2nd round pick on him now. Heck the Bengals could probably use a do over this season in selecting Harvin instead of Andre Smith.

Everything isn't a crap shoot when you are talking about a kid from COASTAL CAROLINA, and one of the most productive players in big time college football at Cal. I don't see how that pick can be defended.

bucksfan2
12-15-2009, 02:45 PM
Everything isn't a crap shoot when you are talking about a kid from COASTAL CAROLINA, and one of the most productive players in big time college football at Cal. I don't see how that pick can be defended.

Who came with some serious character issues and heavy baggage. Not to mention that all other 31 teams passed on him at least once. As for being from COASTAL CAROLINA, Terrell Owens went to the football powerhouse of Tennessee Chattanooga and the best WR of all time went to Mississippi Valley State University. Just because you didn't go to a big time college doesn't mean you can't become a big time WR.

cincrazy
12-15-2009, 02:56 PM
Who came with some serious character issues and heavy baggage. Not to mention that all other 31 teams passed on him at least once. As for being from COASTAL CAROLINA, Terrell Owens went to the football powerhouse of Tennessee Chattanooga and the best WR of all time went to Mississippi Valley State University. Just because you didn't go to a big time college doesn't mean you can't become a big time WR.

I agree with you there. And Randy Moss went to Marshall.

However, Moss and Rice were well known, even in college. Owens... that's another matter. That's just pure luck. The Bengals tried to outsmart themselves with the Simpson choice.

And his character certainly can't even be an issue on this team, can it? They took a flier on Cedric Benson and Larry Johnson, so if they think Jackson could get the job done, they would have taken them.

It's all fine and dandy that 31 other teams passed on him. I understand that. But just because 31 other teams were stupid doesn't mean I wanted us to be stupid. Jackson was a great value pick at that spot, and we blew it. Now we're stuck with Andre Caldwell as our #2, and a passing game that will probably sink our Super Bowl hopes.

Redhook
12-15-2009, 02:58 PM
Bratkowski's philosophy is what's at fault here in regards to predictability. His thinking is "we're good and you can't stop us even if you know what we're going to do. We're going to dictate to you , not the other way around."

I totally disagree with that. I say this is the NFL and the guys on the other side of the ball aren't slouches. I agree with the Bill Walsh way of thinking, "you take what the defense gives you."


Exactly.

I don't think Brat's an idiot or the main problem, but he is not a good offensive coordinator. With the talent they had in '05, a monkey could've called the plays and still been successful. He has to be one of the more stubborn, unclever coaches in the NFL. He adapts at a snail's pace and has the creativity of a fossil.

TeamSelig
12-15-2009, 03:02 PM
I believe they are called WR screens? Where the ball is immediately thrown to 85 at the line of scrimmage and a few guys throw some blocks. What happened to these plays? Seems like we used to run them all the time, allowing Ochocinco to work his magic.

Redsfaithful
12-15-2009, 03:57 PM
This is a young team, I'm honestly satisfied with a division win this year, and I'm hoping they can win a playoff game also since it's been so long. Anything more would be awesome obviously, but I can't be upset about a Bengals team giving me entertainment into January. The offense is a problem, but it seems like it'd be easily correctable going into next year, they probably need another good lineman, and a highly drafted wide receiver plus resigning Chris Henry and it'd be back to normal.

Not sure it's really correctable this late in the season, but I wouldn't mind seeing them take a flyer on Galloway or call up Simpson, seems like trying something like that wouldn't hurt.

cincrazy
12-15-2009, 05:11 PM
This is a young team, I'm honestly satisfied with a division win this year, and I'm hoping they can win a playoff game also since it's been so long. Anything more would be awesome obviously, but I can't be upset about a Bengals team giving me entertainment into January. The offense is a problem, but it seems like it'd be easily correctable going into next year, they probably need another good lineman, and a highly drafted wide receiver plus resigning Chris Henry and it'd be back to normal.

Not sure it's really correctable this late in the season, but I wouldn't mind seeing them take a flyer on Galloway or call up Simpson, seems like trying something like that wouldn't hurt.

Bingo.

Hoosier Red
12-15-2009, 05:34 PM
I agree with you there. And Randy Moss went to Marshall.

However, Moss and Rice were well known, even in college. Owens... that's another matter. That's just pure luck. The Bengals tried to outsmart themselves with the Simpson choice.

And his character certainly can't even be an issue on this team, can it? They took a flier on Cedric Benson and Larry Johnson, so if they think Jackson could get the job done, they would have taken them.

It's all fine and dandy that 31 other teams passed on him. I understand that. But just because 31 other teams were stupid doesn't mean I wanted us to be stupid. Jackson was a great value pick at that spot, and we blew it. Now we're stuck with Andre Caldwell as our #2, and a passing game that will probably sink our Super Bowl hopes.

I agree with Bucksfan, the idea of comparing picks one over the other is quite honestly silly. Jerome Simpson sucks as a pick all on his own, there are a host of reasons why the Bengals picked him instead of Jackson. But you can list any guy picked before Jerry Rice as a stupid pick, any WR taken in 2002 before TJ probably fails in that comparison. If the Patriots are so smart about picking Tom Brady in the 6th round, why did they wait so long to draft him?

Drafts need to be graded in their entirety and within the context of the entire team. With that said, the Bengals obviously failed on the Simpson pick because he so clearly is a bust at this point in his career not because DeSean Jackson was on the board behind him.

Sea Ray
12-15-2009, 05:37 PM
This is a young team, I'm honestly satisfied with a division win this year, and I'm hoping they can win a playoff game also since it's been so long. Anything more would be awesome obviously, but I can't be upset about a Bengals team giving me entertainment into January. The offense is a problem, but it seems like it'd be easily correctable going into next year, they probably need another good lineman, and a highly drafted wide receiver plus resigning Chris Henry and it'd be back to normal.

Not sure it's really correctable this late in the season, but I wouldn't mind seeing them take a flyer on Galloway or call up Simpson, seems like trying something like that wouldn't hurt.

Honestly I think this team sets up for a serious run next year, not this year. Chances are they'll have Coffman, Odom and Reggie Kelly back as well next year.

Sea Ray
12-15-2009, 05:39 PM
Aside from character issues, the reason they picked Simpson over Jackson was his size. I think it was a poor choice but perhaps he's been poorly coached too

TeamSelig
12-15-2009, 07:56 PM
I agree. Next year could be good. Hopefully we make some good draft choices this year, and maybe another Rey M falls to us in the 2nd Rd.

bucksfan2
12-16-2009, 09:47 AM
Aside from character issues, the reason they picked Simpson over Jackson was his size. I think it was a poor choice but perhaps he's been poorly coached too

IIRC Simpson was picked right around where many had him slotted. I even think the Steelers came out and said that he was the #1 WR on their draft board at the time.

There was something that caused the NFL teams to pass on Jackson. He went from a Heisman candidate and top 15 type pick to the 49th pick in the draft. His attitude was even on show during Philly's win when he caught the long TD pass and backed into the endzone taunting the NY Giants defender.

Eric_the_Red
12-16-2009, 10:48 AM
IIRC Simpson was picked right around where many had him slotted. I even think the Steelers came out and said that he was the #1 WR on their draft board at the time.

There was something that caused the NFL teams to pass on Jackson. He went from a Heisman candidate and top 15 type pick to the 49th pick in the draft. His attitude was even on show during Philly's win when he caught the long TD pass and backed into the endzone taunting the NY Giants defender.


No, Simpson went earlier than anticipated. Many expected the Bengals to take Limas Sweed, which only would have been marginally better than Simpson. Jackson was the best option of the three, which is faint praise.

GIDP
12-16-2009, 12:46 PM
Bengals released Purify and Marvin talked a little about Simpson today needing to be able to block in special teams.

I feel like Mike Brown is pushing them to get the guy into games. I dont know if I really disagree though considering hes about our only option at this point.

CTA513
12-16-2009, 01:49 PM
Bengals released Purify and Marvin talked a little about Simpson today needing to be able to block in special teams.

I feel like Mike Brown is pushing them to get the guy into games. I dont know if I really disagree though considering hes about our only option at this point.

Purify was good on special teams but he really didn't do much at all on offense outside of blocking.
Hopefully Simpson will get his chance and help the Bengals passing game.

BEETTLEBUG
12-16-2009, 02:23 PM
One fix would be like someone send out with Brad Bartkowski and in with Charlie Weis

traderumor
12-16-2009, 02:34 PM
One fix would be like someone send out with Brad Bartkowski and in with Charlie WeisIs Brad any relation to Steve? What position does he play?

WVRed
12-16-2009, 03:48 PM
IIRC Simpson was picked right around where many had him slotted. I even think the Steelers came out and said that he was the #1 WR on their draft board at the time.

There was something that caused the NFL teams to pass on Jackson. He went from a Heisman candidate and top 15 type pick to the 49th pick in the draft. His attitude was even on show during Philly's win when he caught the long TD pass and backed into the endzone taunting the NY Giants defender.

Simpson was picked a round earlier than he was projected. Most mocks I read prior to that draft had him as a third to fourth round pick.

This may be the first time I will ever say that I hope the Bengals do not burn any early picks on defense. We need wideouts, O-line, TE, and possibly even insurance at RB and QB.

Redhook
12-16-2009, 06:42 PM
Simpson was picked a round earlier than he was projected. Most mocks I read prior to that draft had him as a third to fourth round pick.

This may be the first time I will ever say that I hope the Bengals do not burn any early picks on defense. We need wideouts, O-line, TE, and possibly even insurance at RB and QB.

Mardy Gilyard. He's there man. Perfect fit.

WVRed
12-16-2009, 09:00 PM
Mardy Gilyard. He's there man. Perfect fit.

Read my mind.

I'm typically against taking any Ohio players (UC or Ohio State) for homerism reasons. Gilyard is an exception. I think he could make an instant impact on kick returns, eventually provide leadership, and be a potential face for the franchise once Ochocinco leaves.

LoganBuck
12-16-2009, 09:34 PM
Read my mind.

I'm typically against taking any Ohio players (UC or Ohio State) for homerism reasons. Gilyard is an exception. I think he could make an instant impact on kick returns, eventually provide leadership, and be a potential face for the franchise once Ochocinco leaves.

Ochocinco and Gilyard would be the loudest pair of receivers in the league.

traderumor
12-17-2009, 10:51 AM
Read my mind.

I'm typically against taking any Ohio players (UC or Ohio State) for homerism reasons. Gilyard is an exception. I think he could make an instant impact on kick returns, eventually provide leadership, and be a potential face for the franchise once Ochocinco leaves.I don't think "homerism" is on an NFL team's mind when they draft a player from a local school.

TeamSelig
12-17-2009, 01:52 PM
I know it isn't NFL, but see the Charlotte Bobcats ;)

Mario-Rijo
12-18-2009, 04:23 PM
Everything isn't a crap shoot when you are talking about a kid from COASTAL CAROLINA, and one of the most productive players in big time college football at Cal. I don't see how that pick can be defended.

I don't think I could defend that choice to this point, however I think it's to soon to make any real judgements. Besides speed WR's I cannot think of 1 WR ever who has made a big impact in his 1st 2 years in the league. Now have they made no impact whatsoever, most likely not. But to make any judgements at all to this point isn't quite fair. When he has played in the preseason he's looked like he's capable of playing. I do know Greg Seamon is/was the Bengals east coast scout who would have probably seen him and I would imagine Mike Sheppard the WR coach had some input on him, but sometimes you just miss as Seamon had input on Chris Henry once upon a time and Sheppard most likely had some input on Caldwell.

I think it's a combination of things here. Small school, raw prospect, rough depth chart for most of his time as a Bengal and he's not a true burner which could have circumvented some of that depth chart. If he's not 3rd or 4th on the depth chart and playing sometime next season I'll consider him a bust because it usually takes time for such prospects to make an impact.