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Kingspoint
12-21-2009, 07:24 AM
Hogwash!

Forget the last 19 games played. That's the last half of September/Oct and it's full of minor leaguers, with meaningless, no pressure games for the REDS against Houston, Pittsburgh and Florida.

The 41 games before that, which is what everyone's talking about (the GLORY of Scott Rolen, and his psychic powers to make the other players better) the REDS were 19-22. The day Rolen put on a REDS uniform they proceeded to lose more games than they won for the next 41 games.

It would have been much worse if not for the arrival of Drew Stubbs. Stubbs' arrival gave the REDS an immediate impact. During the middle of those 41 games after Rolen arrived the REDS' put together a 12-2 run (meaning they were 7-20 during the other games of Rolen's "impact".

That 12-2 run had little to do with Rolen and everything to do with Stubbs replacing Dickerson in CF that day (and no Willy Taveras around to screw things up).

With Rolen batting 5th in an RBI spot, he only generated 6 RBI's over those 14 games (Votto and Phillips were in the lineup every day ahead of him) with Stubbs bettering him with 7 RBI's from the #1 spot. Those 8th and 9th spots for the REDS were horrendous with nobody getting on base in front of him, or he led off an inning because the pitcher made the last out or he led off the game.

Stubbs scored 11 runs and Rolen just 7, understandably.

Rolen batted:.. .315/.373/.333(ugly)/.706 with 1 measly extra-base hit....a double...and he's supposed to be the #5 RBI producer. I don't think so.

Stubbs batted: .313/.333/.537/.870 with Four Homeruns, a Triple, and a Double!

That's why they were able to go 12-2 over a 14 game stretch surrounded by a 7-20 record during the first 41 games of Rolen's arrival.

The REDS went 6-14 during those first 20 games that Rolen arrived for. Some influence!!! A negative influence, if anything. But, in reality it was neither.

Willy Taveras started 12 of those 20 games and Stubbs only played (started) in 4 of those 20 games.

There's the difference. Pitchers knowing that Willy Taveras was behind you in the field and leading off at the plate versus that 14-game stretch where Stubbs was behind them in the field and leading off at the plate with no Willy Taveras to be found.

Enough already with the "Scott Rolen" influence. There wasn't one and there isn't going to be one.

There is a Drew-Stubbs-minus-Willy-Taveras influence, but it's on the field and at the plate, not in the minds of the players.

Every player is trying to make as much money as they can and trying as hard as they can and no player is going to motivate them to do any better one way or the other. Their wife might. Their kids might. The Manager or Coach might. But, no player is going to make a difference mentally in the motivation department.

HalMorrisRules
12-21-2009, 08:55 AM
Your opinion about Rolen's leadership abilities is as warrantless as your theory about Stubbs' arrival. The fact is, you personally have no idea what Rolen's effect on the clubhouse was and you can say with no certainty to what degree he influenced other players. I am not a Rolen Kool-Aid drinker but when people claim to know about things like clubhouse dynamics it really makes me scratch my head.

Vottomatic
12-21-2009, 09:01 AM
Your opinion about Rolen's leadership abilities is as warrantless as your theory about Stubbs' arrival. The fact is, you personally have no idea what Rolen's effect on the clubhouse was and you can say with no certainty to what degree he influenced other players. I am not a Rolen Kool-Aid drinker but when people claim to know about things like clubhouse dynamics it really makes me scratch my head.

Agreed. One could also point to Votto being out for a month earlier in the season, coming back and struggling right away and maybe getting it going later on. Or point to Bruce getting hurt and being replaced with someone who could actually hit for average and not swing for the fence every at-bat. Or Janish making the most of his opportunity. Or Arroyo pitching better in the second half. Bailey putting it all together.

There were alot of factors.

Bailey and Arroyo put together terrific 2nd halves.
Drew Stubbs replaced Tavares in CF.
Reds trotted out a consistent lineup of their best players from August on.
Defense was improved with Rolen at 3B and Janish at SS.
Lehr/Maloney put together better 5th starter starts than Owings.

stripedwarrior
12-21-2009, 09:17 AM
Hogwash!

Forget the last 19 games played. That's the last half of September/Oct and it's full of minor leaguers, with meaningless, no pressure games for the REDS against Houston, Pittsburgh and Florida.

The 41 games before that, which is what everyone's talking about (the GLORY of Scott Rolen, and his psychic powers to make the other players better) the REDS were 19-22. The day Rolen put on a REDS uniform they proceeded to lose more games than they won for the next 41 games.

It would have been much worse if not for the arrival of Drew Stubbs. Stubbs' arrival gave the REDS an immediate impact. During the middle of those 41 games after Rolen arrived the REDS' put together a 12-2 run (meaning they were 7-20 during the other games of Rolen's "impact".

That 12-2 run had little to do with Rolen and everything to do with Stubbs replacing Dickerson in CF that day (and no Willy Taveras around to screw things up).

With Rolen batting 5th in an RBI spot, he only generated 6 RBI's over those 14 games (Votto and Phillips were in the lineup every day ahead of him) with Stubbs bettering him with 7 RBI's from the #1 spot. Those 8th and 9th spots for the REDS were horrendous with nobody getting on base in front of him, or he led off an inning because the pitcher made the last out or he led off the game.

Stubbs scored 11 runs and Rolen just 7, understandably.

Rolen batted:.. .315/.373/.333(ugly)/.706 with 1 measly extra-base hit....a double...and he's supposed to be the #5 RBI producer. I don't think so.

Stubbs batted: .313/.333/.537/.870 with Four Homeruns, a Triple, and a Double!

That's why they were able to go 12-2 over a 14 game stretch surrounded by a 7-20 record during the first 41 games of Rolen's arrival.

The REDS went 6-14 during those first 20 games that Rolen arrived for. Some influence!!! A negative influence, if anything. But, in reality it was neither.

Willy Taveras started 12 of those 20 games and Stubbs only played (started) in 4 of those 20 games.

There's the difference. Pitchers knowing that Willy Taveras was behind you in the field and leading off at the plate versus that 14-game stretch where Stubbs was behind them in the field and leading off at the plate with no Willy Taveras to be found.

Enough already with the "Scott Rolen" influence. There wasn't one and there isn't going to be one.

There is a Drew-Stubbs-minus-Willy-Taveras influence, but it's on the field and at the plate, not in the minds of the players.

Every player is trying to make as much money as they can and trying as hard as they can and no player is going to motivate them to do any better one way or the other. Their wife might. Their kids might. The Manager or Coach might. But, no player is going to make a difference mentally in the motivation department.


The hole in your argument is that the Reds only played 40 games with Rolen.

The REDS went 6-14 during those first 20 games that Rolen arrived for. Some influence!!! A negative influence, if anything. But, in reality it was neither.
He was on the DL for 18 games, during which the Reds went 6-12. He played in 2 games, which were losses. Was hit in the head by a pitch, and went on the DL. THere is your 6-14.

In games that Rolen played in, the Reds went 27-13. I would called that a positive effect.

edit: Make that 27-15. I forgot about the first 2 games which were losses. So they actually played 42 games with Rolen. Not sure if he sat out any of them, don't feel like going through the box scores at work.

Redsfan320
12-21-2009, 10:21 AM
Yeah, what's the point of this thread anyway? We already have a Rolen thread, put it in there.

320

wojo1025
12-21-2009, 10:45 AM
Yeah, morons. How dare anyone be excited about the possibilities of the upcoming season. Don't you know it's Reds-Country and we're suppose to simply expect to lose each season?

Don't get excited about Rolen restructuring his contract to help out.

Don't get excited about the record the club had since his arrival.

Morons.

This is Reds-country. Expect a season of 10 under baseball and everyone saying "yeah, well just wait til 2011."

roby
12-21-2009, 01:26 PM
You can't measure Rolen's effect on the rest of the team from the day he arrives. It would take a couple of weeks for him to begin to have an influence. (And that would be pretty miraculous to impact the team that quickly). To be fair, you have to give him a little time to establish himself with his new teammates. It's obvious that he made a huge difference. Plus you have comments from players like Brandon Phillips and Joey Votto saying that he did make that difference. Admit it or not, Rolen was a good move and a nice addition to the Redlegs.

vottofan4life
12-21-2009, 02:22 PM
Willy Taveras will be gone within the next couple weeks

stripedwarrior
12-21-2009, 03:06 PM
Willy Taveras will be gone within the next couple weeks

We can only hope. If he is, then I'll toast that.:beerme:

Carolina Red
12-21-2009, 07:35 PM
What a stupid post. The fact that we now have a third baseman who can field his position and throw the ball to the first baseman is a hell of an upgrade over what we had. How many games did Encarnacion lose with his wild throws to first? Rolen is a class act and the Reds are lucky to have him. So many people on here fantasize about trades for great players around the league but the fact of the matter is that not that many great, established ballplayers are willing to come to Cincy. Rolen is one who wants to be here.

Zimmers
12-21-2009, 08:39 PM
With all due respect, your hate for rolen is out of control. While i wasnt thrilled at the time, he is a red and even at his age one of the better players on this current team. You can hate the trade and be pissed off but the daily bashing of a player is unreal. Ee isnt half the player that rolen is even at this stage in rolens career.

sixfigure
12-21-2009, 09:59 PM
With all due respect, your hate for rolen is out of control. While i wasnt thrilled at the time, he is a red and even at his age one of the better players on this current team. You can hate the trade and be pissed off but the daily bashing of a player is unreal. Ee isnt half the player that rolen is even at this stage in rolens career.

I agree totally......kingspoint needs to relax more and enjoy life...being a hater is really tiresome anyway......:beerme:

JayBruceFan
12-21-2009, 10:49 PM
Don't know where you found your Rolen stats but here were his numbers as a Red over 40 Games:

7 Doubles
1 Triple
3 Homeruns
24 RBIs
19 Walks
20 Strikeouts
.270 Average
.766 OPS

JayBruceFan
12-21-2009, 10:52 PM
And here are Rolen's numbers over his last 10 Games:

.344 Average
1 Home Run
10 RBIs
11 Runs
5 Walks
3 Strikeouts

flash
12-21-2009, 11:12 PM
I really agree that Rolen's arrival wasoverated, but after EE dismal performance almost anything would have been an improvement. Stubbs arrival also was also overated. But after Taveras once again almost anything would have been an improvement.

Just a point for some to ponder. What Reds outfielder had the highest BA and OBP last season? He should be the starting centerfielder. I have no qualms about putting Stubbs in left.

Plus Plus
12-21-2009, 11:51 PM
Just a point for some to ponder. What Reds outfielder had the highest BA and OBP last season? He should be the starting centerfielder. I have no qualms about putting Stubbs in left.

Stubbs is a mega-elite defender in CF. Putting him in LF would be a waste of his defensive talent, and I'm not sure what it would do to improve the club.

Kingspoint
12-22-2009, 01:25 AM
Agreed. One could also point to Votto being out for a month earlier in the season, coming back and struggling right away and maybe getting it going later on. Or point to Bruce getting hurt and being replaced with someone who could actually hit for average and not swing for the fence every at-bat. Or Janish making the most of his opportunity. Or Arroyo pitching better in the second half. Bailey putting it all together.

There were alot of factors.

Bailey and Arroyo put together terrific 2nd halves.
Drew Stubbs replaced Tavares in CF.
Reds trotted out a consistent lineup of their best players from August on.
Defense was improved with Rolen at 3B and Janish at SS.
Lehr/Maloney put together better 5th starter starts than Owings.

There were so many other reasons. Thanks for including the rest of it. (I didn't want to make the post any longer than I already had.)

Kingspoint
12-22-2009, 01:27 AM
The hole in your argument is that the Reds only played 40 games with Rolen.

The REDS went 6-14 during those first 20 games that Rolen arrived for. Some influence!!! A negative influence, if anything. But, in reality it was neither.
He was on the DL for 18 games, during which the Reds went 6-12. He played in 2 games, which were losses. Was hit in the head by a pitch, and went on the DL. THere is your 6-14.

In games that Rolen played in, the Reds went 27-13. I would called that a positive effect.

edit: Make that 27-15. I forgot about the first 2 games which were losses. So they actually played 42 games with Rolen. Not sure if he sat out any of them, don't feel like going through the box scores at work.

His "influence" shouldn't make a difference whether he's out there in the field or not. That's supposed to transcend from his mind to theirs. He was in the dugout for the games.

Kingspoint
12-22-2009, 01:30 AM
Don't know where you found your Rolen stats but here were his numbers as a Red over 40 Games:

7 Doubles
1 Triple
3 Homeruns
24 RBIs
19 Walks
20 Strikeouts
.270 Average
.766 OPS

I posted his numbers for the 14 games where the REDS went 12-2. The other games they were 6-20, so if he was hitting better, it didn't help them win.

Kingspoint
12-22-2009, 01:36 AM
I won't say I told you so after the season.

I'll say it now.

"I told you so." Then at the end of the season, after he misses a quarter of the season, prevents the growth of players that should be playing, prevents the acquisition of another player through free agency or trade because of his $5M resigning bonus, bats in an RBI spot all season leaving numerous men on base while slugging under .410 and OPS'ing under .760, all while "influencing" the REDS into another sub-.500 season, all of you can tell me how much you look forward to having him back in 2011 and 2012.

I'm done.

Kingspoint
12-22-2009, 02:40 AM
One more thing.

Rolen has it in his contract that he gets a "personal suite" for all Road games.

Rolen has no interest in "hanging out" with the younger players. He's in his old world, makes 15 times as much money as they do, and has nothing in common with them. There's no mentoring going on here.

Get out of your fantasy world thinking that he's a mentor to these guys. He isn't anything of that kind.

Brandon Phillips is about the only one who can relate to him, and I guarantee you they ain't hanging out at night with each other.

Vottomatic
12-22-2009, 09:13 AM
One more thing.

Rolen has it in his contract that he gets a "personal suite" for all Road games.

Rolen has no interest in "hanging out" with the younger players. He's in his old world, makes 15 times as much money as they do, and has nothing in common with them. There's no mentoring going on here.

Get out of your fantasy world thinking that he's a mentor to these guys. He isn't anything of that kind.

Brandon Phillips is about the only one who can relate to him, and I guarantee you they ain't hanging out at night with each other.

I don't want them hanging out at night together. I hope all of our players stay out of trouble.

It was well documented that BP and Votto both spoke of Rolen's professional positive image on the young guys and team. The record speaks for itself.

And I'm sure they do plenty of talking in the dugout, locker room, and around the batting cage, that by the time they leave after the game, like any work atmosphere, they're ready for some alone time/down time.

HalMorrisRules
12-22-2009, 09:26 AM
One more thing.

Rolen has it in his contract that he gets a "personal suite" for all Road games.

Rolen has no interest in "hanging out" with the younger players. He's in his old world, makes 15 times as much money as they do, and has nothing in common with them. There's no mentoring going on here.

Get out of your fantasy world thinking that he's a mentor to these guys. He isn't anything of that kind.

Brandon Phillips is about the only one who can relate to him, and I guarantee you they ain't hanging out at night with each other.

Once again, you have absolutely NO IDEA about the clubhouse dynamics and no one mentioned that they thought they were all palling around after games. At this point you are sounding petty.

markymark69
12-22-2009, 09:38 AM
Yeah, we would have been better off keeping Encarnacion. Come on people. And I liked Encarnacion, but I like the Reds brass got tired of waiting for his potential.

Rolen is a guy who plays the game the right way and the Reds need somebody like that. Taking the extra base and doing the little things that teams need to win games. One guy alone can't do that, but other guys seeing the one guy do it, leads to others doing it and the Reds were sadly lacking in players like that. Intangibles mean alot.

You can argue about the schedule, but every else in the Central played all those teams the same amount of times and the Reds were a better team with Rolen than they were without and anyone who can't see that doesn't know baseball.

BLEEDS
12-22-2009, 01:58 PM
(I didn't want to make the post any longer than I already had.)


His "influence" shouldn't make a difference whether he's out there in the field or not...


I posted his numbers for the 14 games where the REDS went 12-2. The other games they were 6-20, so if he was hitting better, it didn't help them win.


I'll say it now.
...
I'm done.


One more thing.
....

Wow. One word. Ritalin.

Dude, replying to yourself, not cool! hehe! :cool:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Vottomatic
12-22-2009, 03:19 PM
Wow. One word. Ritalin.

Dude, replying to yourself, not cool! hehe! :cool:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Funny.

BLEEDS
12-22-2009, 03:36 PM
Funny.

Seriously when your own post has 5 replies in a row from yourself, all within a span of 10 minutes, you need to get a grip. Maybe make all the replies in ONE post? Just a suggestion.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Vottomatic
12-22-2009, 03:37 PM
I agree

Vottomatic
12-22-2009, 03:37 PM
with you. ;)

bounty37h
12-22-2009, 04:23 PM
i

bounty37h
12-22-2009, 04:23 PM
do

bounty37h
12-22-2009, 04:24 PM
too

BLEEDS
12-22-2009, 04:36 PM
o

BLEEDS
12-22-2009, 04:36 PM
k

GIDP
12-22-2009, 04:38 PM
Oh someone let the children out of school early today.

DannyB
12-22-2009, 05:59 PM
Seriously when your own post has 5 replies in a row from yourself, all within a span of 10 minutes, you need to get a grip. Maybe make all the replies in ONE post? Just a suggestion.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Rants are accepted on The Sun Deck.

Dracodave
12-22-2009, 11:38 PM
While Rolen might not seem positive to the team it fixed a glaring hole the entire team saw.

It fixed the horrible play of Edwin at third base. Maybe Rolen himself wasnt the uplifting idea but the idea that management saw Edwin as a insult to the team as well.

Kingspoint
12-23-2009, 07:45 AM
OK. I deserved that.

Next thought....same post....

I say it all the time....there are a lot of reasons to watch the club. There's a ton of stories unfolding. If I was in Cincinnati, I'd go to the games to see these stories, but I might sit on the 1st Base side :) .

BLEEDS
12-23-2009, 12:11 PM
Rants are accepted on The Sun Deck.

Right. But if he keeps it up, he'll never get his application for the ORG accepted, so we'll be stuck with him!:p:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Dracodave
12-23-2009, 08:07 PM
Right. But if he keeps it up, he'll never get his application for the ORG accepted, so we'll be stuck with him!:p:

PEACE

-BLEEDS


LAWLS!