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View Full Version : An idea....Dump $15M in payroll and lower ticket prices.



Kingspoint
01-22-2010, 07:25 AM
Figure out a way to dump $15M in payroll through some combination of trades of Arroyo/Harang/Rolen/Cordero, acquiring a Shortstop in return, hopefully, and then use that $15M in savings to:

Lower ticket prices!

Add 25% more fans for 2010 by dropping ticket prices by 25% across the board. Let these "new" fans grow with these young players (we ain't winnin' nothin' in 2010, anyway). It's not like we don't have or can't get players to replace the production of the 4 big salaried players, as likely only 2 get traded anyway, not all 4.

That's like asking the government to lower taxes or to have a manager of a government body to spend less than what he was budgeted to do.

They think that once they get fans used to paying a certain price, it will be difficult to get them to go back there again if they drop the prices.

If I ran the REDS, that's what I'd do. Figure out a way to cut $15M through trading two or 3 of those players while acquiring a decent shortstop in return, and then I'd lower the ticket prices 25%.

It's somewhat against Wrigley's principle of "never devalue the product by lowering the cost of the item. Give anything else away....free stuff, cool exhibitions, fireworks, etc., but never lower the cost of the item (like through "2 for 1" offers, etc.)." This isn't a "gimic", one-time promotion. It's a permanent change of price structure to get the prices more in line with the true value of the product and the times we are in. What one pays to see the Cincinnati REDS the last several years is over-inflated. If it wasn't the demand would exceed supply, and in Cincinnati, that's not even close and hasn't been for decades.

I don't know who gets concessions from the GAB, but someone's going to benefit from 25% more fans.

Moosie52
01-22-2010, 08:01 AM
I think they could give the tickets away and still not sell out. It's not the cost of the game, it's the inconvenience of driving, parking, and putting up with drunken idiots that keeps many people away. I'm not sure what you can do about that. :)

CRedsLarkin11
01-22-2010, 08:47 AM
I think they could give the tickets away and still not sell out. It's not the cost of the game, it's the inconvenience of driving, parking, and putting up with drunken idiots that keeps many people away. I'm not sure what you can do about that. :)

All of those are true but I think the product on the field has a lot to do with it

mattfeet
01-22-2010, 09:11 AM
You can get $5 tickets all day long. I dont see them lowering ticket prices much more than that....

-Matt

Kingspoint
01-22-2010, 09:36 AM
I think they could give the tickets away and still not sell out. It's not the cost of the game, it's the inconvenience of driving, parking, and putting up with drunken idiots that keeps many people away. I'm not sure what you can do about that. :)

Maybe if the Ohio River didn't flood so high once a decade or so, businesses would be more apt to put something of permanence down there, too. They try and then the flood comes along and wipes everything away.

Sounds like a Federally matched Light Rail project needs to happen in Cincinnati.

mattfeet
01-22-2010, 09:41 AM
Maybe if the Ohio River didn't flood so high once a decade or so, businesses would be more apt to put something of permanence down there, too. They try and then the flood comes along and wipes everything away.

Sounds like a Federally matched Light Rail project needs to happen in Cincinnati.

Guess you haven't heard of the Banks project? Currently in development of Phases I and II right now with hotels, restaurants, ESPN Zone, shopping, etc., all in between the Reds and Bengals stadium.

-Matt

Kingspoint
01-22-2010, 09:55 AM
All of those are true but I think the product on the field has a lot to do with it.

That is my point. The pricing structure from top-to-bottom needs to reflect this for the 2010 season. They've got to do something to get people back to the games on a regular basis. The current product's not going to do it, so why waste all that money on those four players when you could get rid of some of them and pass that money on to the fans so they could afford to go to 6 games on the year instead of 4, or 3 games instead of 2, or 12 games instead of 8.

Making $40 seats $120 instead of $160 would give a lot of people an incentive to attend because someone who was willing to only spend $30 for a seat is now going to get to spend $30 for a seat, but they'll be sitting a lot closer than they did before sitting in the Infield Box instead of the Field Box.

Four seats in the Mezzanine would go for $64 instead of $88. That $24 is a huge difference and if I was a family of four earning $60K per year, I might go to 8 games instead of 5 or 6 games this year. We go out and have a good day and get back for less than $100 instead of $125.

A permanent price drop across the board is different than 2 for 1 gimmicks and discounts for occasional games. Those devalue the product and cause a person to "wait" for the promotion price....like waiting for the auto ads on the weekends. But, a wholesale price reduction reestablishes a connection between real value and the cost of the product and the item (the REDS).

Nine years ago, the prices were fine. But, not in this economy. The product on the field is going to get better every year for the next few years. The prices could go back up gradually as the team improves, but for now, those prices need to come down. I can't imagine them averaging on the season this year more than 24K fans per game, or more than 85 wins (though 74-78 is more likely), so why waste $33M or whatever it is on those four players when that money could be passed on directly to the fans?

Kingspoint
01-22-2010, 09:57 AM
Guess you haven't heard of the Banks project? Currently in development of Phases I and II right now with hotels, restaurants, ESPN Zone, shopping, etc., all in between the Reds and Bengals stadium.

-Matt

I just took a look at that.

How do they propose to handle the next flood with regard to protecting the area?

I also see some people are trying to get light rail/streetcars into the City. They're awful late in doing so, but it's never too late to start. That would make it much easier to get to and from downtown for work and for games. It's really odd for a City to have two major stadiums and no light rail going directly to them.

mattfeet
01-22-2010, 11:09 AM
I dont know the specifics of that certain aspect, but I can assure you that the architects, engineers, city planners, etc., all took that into careful consideration before diving into a nearly $1 Billion dollar project.

-Matt

fugowitribe
01-22-2010, 02:34 PM
I think they could give the tickets away and still not sell out. It's not the cost of the game, it's the inconvenience of driving, parking, and putting up with drunken idiots that keeps many people away. I'm not sure what you can do about that. :)

Maybe they wouldn't have to drink so much if the team played well every now and again (just kidding).......But, if the team wins and families start making it to the ballpark, security will help this situatuion, but as of right now, they are the only revenue that this team needs greatly.

mroby85
01-22-2010, 02:39 PM
I have a better idea, spend money, and raise ticket prices. I'll go more often then. Tickets aren't that expensive right now. If they drop 15 million off the payroll, I won't even want to go, if I want to see minor league baseball Columbus is closer.

BLEEDS
01-22-2010, 04:25 PM
I have a better idea, spend money, and raise ticket prices. I'll go more often then. Tickets aren't that expensive right now. If they drop 15 million off the payroll, I won't even want to go, if I want to see minor league baseball Columbus is closer.

I'm with you. Spend $15 M and raise prices. I'll go watch a winner.

That's what I don't get with this organization. Keep spending less, and hope that more fans start coming. Instead they come less, then they have to spend less.

It wasn't that long ago - 1995 - when we used to sell out consistently. Why? BECAUSE WE WERE GOOD!!
Cincinnati won't go spend money on a crap product, but they'll go out in full force for a contender.

And these guys run billion dollar companies and can't figure this out?!?!?


PEACE

-BLEEDS

DannyB
01-22-2010, 05:14 PM
I just took a look at that.

How do they propose to handle the next flood with regard to protecting the area?

I also see some people are trying to get light rail/streetcars into the City. They're awful late in doing so, but it's never too late to start. That would make it much easier to get to and from downtown for work and for games. It's really odd for a City to have two major stadiums and no light rail going directly to them.


Downtown Cincinnati is pretty easy to get to and navigate including the stadiums.Many fans park and party in Kentucky,which is also very easy to get around in.
The stadium area doesnt flood very often,everything there gets built above flood stage.

Kingspoint
01-22-2010, 06:30 PM
It wasn't that long ago - 1995 - when we used to sell out consistently. Why? BECAUSE WE WERE GOOD!!


I don't think so.

I flew 2000 miles one way to go to the playoffs in 1995, and nobody in Cincinnati gave a darn. There was no interest in them around the streets. Nobody talked about them during the playoffs, and NOBODY showed up for the games. It was embarrassing to come from out of town and see that kind of support for the REDS. Only 25,000 fans were showing up to the playoff games. The playoff games! I know why. They were still pissed off from the strike a few years earlier, and they were the only fans who had any kind of internal integrity around the nation. I respected that in them. You're not going to win Cincinnati fans over with fluff and B.S.. They started this thing called professional baseball 141 years ago!

You have to treat fans in Cincinnati with respect. It's different there than in any other City. Thus, your comments on why you would go more if they were better.

"Give me a product worth seeing, and cost doesn't matter."

There certainly is that, and I understand. But, like I said. That's not going to happen in 2010, so why should anyone fool themselves. You said yourself you're not showing up if the product is any good. So, with or without Rolen, Arroyo, Harang and Cordero, they aren't going to be any good. Why waste the money, then?

Arroyo and Harang are terrible pitchers. There shouldn't be any love for them at all.

Here's a bet I'll make with anyone:

About 49-52 pitchers in the NL will pitch enough innings to "qualify" for an ERA title next season. Arroyo and Harang will be two of them.

I say that neither of them will finish in the Top-30, and I'm going to use the Sagarin ratings as the basis for this (this is not negotiable, as it's my bet, and it keeps it simple), and that one of them will finish in the Bottom-10. Together that makes puts them in the bottom-25% of the league (just because you pitch a lot of innings doesn't mean you're any good, it just means that your team isn't willing to replace you).

If someone thinks that either of them can finish in the Top 60% or 1-30 in the NL Sagarin Ratings next year, then I'll bet you a pizza-of-choice, or a donation of $25 to a cause we can agree on before the season.

For reference purposes, here's how the two have finished the last 3 seasons:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/nlp09.htm

2009
29. Arroyo
42. Harang

2008
42. Arroyo
43. Harang

2007
28. Arroyo
7. Harang

Kingspoint
01-22-2010, 06:33 PM
Downtown Cincinnati is pretty easy to get to and navigate including the stadiums.Many fans park and party in Kentucky,which is also very easy to get around in.

The stadium area doesnt flood very often,everything there gets built above flood stage.

Then, what's Moosie52 talking about with regard to driving and parking?

Also, what do you describe as very often? I've seen the boats going down the streets once a decade with waterlines halfway up the sides of buildings.

stripedwarrior
01-22-2010, 06:44 PM
X2 for spending the money that makes a WINNING team. If it is $70 million, or $85 million, I will not care so much about the prices, especially since you can pack and bring in your own food and water, as long as I am rooting for a winning team. Just win baby!!

DannyB
01-23-2010, 03:45 PM
Then, what's Moosie52 talking about with regard to driving and parking?

Also, what do you describe as very often? I've seen the boats going down the streets once a decade with waterlines halfway up the sides of buildings.

I don't know what Moosies is talking about,I lived in Western Hills and never had a problem getting to the stadium. 10 minutes tops. I usually parked in Covington and walked across the Suspension bridge.When I lived in Dayton it was a 45 minute trip straight down I-75 right to the parking lots.Some road construction might have slowed those trips a bit, but still never a real problem.

There was always some flooding a bit east and west of the downtown area and maybe some of the parking lots but for the most part the stadium areas are well protected with flood gates.

Kingspoint
01-23-2010, 06:44 PM
I don't know what Moosies is talking about,I lived in Western Hills and never had a problem getting to the stadium. 10 minutes tops. I usually parked in Covington and walked across the Suspension bridge.When I lived in Dayton it was a 45 minute trip straight down I-75 right to the parking lots.Some road construction might have slowed those trips a bit, but still never a real problem.

There was always some flooding a bit east and west of the downtown area and maybe some of the parking lots but for the most part the stadium areas are well protected with flood gates.

When I flew there for the '95 playoffs, I spent my time in Covington to watch the non-REDS games (because everything or most games were blacked out in Cincy, remember?). That was fine, though, as there was a decent sports bar in the downtown area of Covington in the brick building section.

big boy
01-24-2010, 09:32 PM
Only 25,000 fans were showing up to the playoff games. The playoff games!

Really? Check here (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN199510060.shtml) and here (http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/1995_NLCS.shtml)to find out if this is true (hint: no).

GIDP
01-24-2010, 09:39 PM
ticket prices wouldnt matter if they won.

In sports you can have the worst team and you cant give away tickets. Make the playoffs and you can charge hundreds for them and they will sell.

Kingspoint
01-24-2010, 10:19 PM
Really? Check here (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN199510060.shtml) and here (http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/1995_NLCS.shtml)to find out if this is true (hint: no).

I was there. There were only 25K fans at the games. 24,999 can verify that. I don't care how many tickets were "sold". Go back and read the articles that were written at the time in the Post and the Enquirer. Both papers commented on the fact that there were only 25,000 fans at the games. There were 1000's and 1000's and 1000's of empty seats.

An hour before "the" game you could have walked up without a ticket and bought one for half price.

I should change what I was saying, as I was talking about only the 1st Round, not the 2nd Round against Atlanta. After they swept the Dodgers, the attendance might have gone up as I didn't go to that round. But, that first Round against the Dodgers, no tickets were being bought, and only 25K showed up for the whooping we put on the Dodgers.

Kingspoint
01-24-2010, 10:21 PM
ticket prices wouldnt matter if they won.

In sports you can have the worst team and you cant give away tickets. Make the playoffs and you can charge hundreds for them and they will sell.

Not in Atlanta.

big boy
01-24-2010, 11:07 PM
I was there. There were only 25K fans at the games. 24,999 can verify that. I don't care how many tickets were "sold".

53,276 tickets were sold for the third game at Cinergy Field. Over 25,000 of these were unused?

ChazzReinhold
01-24-2010, 11:49 PM
I was there. There were only 25K fans at the games. 24,999 can verify that. I don't care how many tickets were "sold". Go back and read the articles that were written at the time in the Post and the Enquirer. Both papers commented on the fact that there were only 25,000 fans at the games. There were 1000's and 1000's and 1000's of empty seats.

An hour before "the" game you could have walked up without a ticket and bought one for half price.

I should change what I was saying, as I was talking about only the 1st Round, not the 2nd Round against Atlanta. After they swept the Dodgers, the attendance might have gone up as I didn't go to that round. But, that first Round against the Dodgers, no tickets were being bought, and only 25K showed up for the whooping we put on the Dodgers.

I think you're right. I still remember watching those games on TV and seeing the outfield upper deck being a ghost town. No way there were 50,000 people in those seats.

Oh well, the thing I most remember is Reggie Sanders going 2-14 with 9 K's and 2GIDP. . . or something along those lines.

Kingspoint
01-25-2010, 12:04 AM
53,276 tickets were sold for the third game at Cinergy Field. Over 25,000 of these were unused?

If you're talking about the 3rd game of the Dodgers series, then, yes. That's how many were "in attendance".

Kingspoint
01-25-2010, 12:08 AM
53,276 tickets were sold for the third game at Cinergy Field. Over 25,000 of these were unused?

I spent the next week around town asking everybody I could why they think people didn't show up. Their answer most of the time was that they were still pissed off about the strike at both management and the players. That showed me what kind of integrity the people of Cincinnati had. I was impressed.

big boy
01-25-2010, 12:34 AM
I spent the next week around town asking everybody I could why they think people didn't show up. Their answer most of the time was that they were still pissed off about the strike at both management and the players. That showed me what kind of integrity the people of Cincinnati had. I was impressed.

You are saying that 25,000 people were so pissed that they purchased tickets they did not intend to use? Interesting.

hundley21
01-25-2010, 02:57 AM
I miss Adam Dunn. Who else can completely negate amazing power and plate discipline with the worst defense ever.

hundley21
01-25-2010, 02:57 AM
haha, the Adam Dunn all-stars

http://gameofinches.blogspot.com/2010/01/adam-dunn-all-stars.html

hundley21
01-25-2010, 03:02 AM
History shows that the Reds are already in the bottom 10 teams in terms of percentage of revenue spent on payroll. Lowering the payroll even more, as well as revenue is not the solution. If anything, us fans should be outraged that ticket prices keep escalating, while that revenue is not being put back into the team on the field.

http://gameofinches.blogspot.com/2009/12/are-cubs-bunch-of-cheap-sobs.html

Kingspoint
01-25-2010, 06:22 PM
You are saying that 25,000 people were so pissed that they purchased tickets they did not intend to use? Interesting.

They were purchased by brokers and scalpers both locally and nationally, not Cincinnati fans, though many were also bought by those going to the games thinking they could either sell them for profit or get friends to pay them back for the tickets and go with them. There was no limit at the time. If you wanted to buy 100 tickets and you got on the phone first, then you could buy 100 tickets. And the brokers got stuck with them. Not only was there no local interest, but there were about 4,000-5,000 walkups in order to get to the 25,000. There was a last-minute local surge on the day of the game.

DannyB
01-25-2010, 07:30 PM
History shows that the Reds are already in the bottom 10 teams in terms of percentage of revenue spent on payroll. Lowering the payroll even more, as well as revenue is not the solution. If anything, us fans should be outraged that ticket prices keep escalating, while that revenue is not being put back into the team on the field.

http://gameofinches.blogspot.com/2009/12/are-cubs-bunch-of-cheap-sobs.html

:rolleyes: How did you come up with that?

DannyB
01-25-2010, 07:34 PM
Maybe they dont need to drop prices.
This from an ORG post

Although no specific sales totals were revealed, Davis also noted that new season ticket sales are two and a half times better than where they were at this point last year.

Kingspoint
01-26-2010, 07:11 AM
Maybe they dont need to drop prices.
This from an ORG post

Quote:
Although no specific sales totals were revealed, Davis also noted that new season ticket sales are two and a half times better than where they were at this point last year.



There's so many good reasons to watch them. I'd go because of the younger, high-potential players that are there now and entering the fold in 2010.

DannyB
01-28-2010, 09:35 AM
There's so many good reasons to watch them. I'd go because of the younger, high-potential players that are there now and entering the fold in 2010.

Personally,I wouldn't commit to season tickets untill Willy is off the roster.Don't forget all those high-potential players have options.