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View Full Version : Kurkjian makes a case for Damon being a fit on the Reds



TStuck
02-08-2010, 01:58 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove09/insider/columns/story?columnist=kurkjian_tim&id=4892995

Here's a link to the article. It's an insider article, so not everyone can access it.

His basic argument is that:
1. Reds need a bat
2. Reds have a hole in LF
3. Reds could use a proven leadoff man with good OBP skills
4. Reds could use Dickerson as late inning defense to cover up Damon's defensive shortcomings
5. Reds could really use his clubhouse presence as someone who has "been there, done that" on the big stage.
6. Damon should still be hungry to produce since he is nearing some significant career milestones with the bat.

I've seen all the arguments Damon vs. Dye vs. Gomes vs. youth already in system. They've addressed shortstop issue. Could Damon be a final piece that puts the Reds over the top and into real playoff contention? If it's a 1 year contract for reasonable money, I'd say go for it.

mattfeet
02-08-2010, 02:22 PM
Im all for it.

-Matt

Carin4Narron
02-08-2010, 02:39 PM
Damon would be wasted on the Reds because he can't win anything with them.

HalMorrisRules
02-08-2010, 03:23 PM
When I read that article I was shocked that Tim didnt comment that Damon and Arroyo would be reunited from their BoSox days. Doesnt every article on ESPN have to be skewed to either the Yanks and the Sox? ;)

roby
02-08-2010, 04:55 PM
Damon would be wasted on the Reds because he can't win anything with them.

I think the Reds are closer than you obviously think they are. It wouldn't take a lot to make them contenders. Damon would be a huge step in the right direction.

Carin4Narron
02-08-2010, 05:01 PM
I think the Reds are closer than you obviously think they are. It wouldn't take a lot to make them contenders. Damon would be a huge step in the right direction.I highly disagree!

BigPoppa
02-08-2010, 05:09 PM
Im all for it.

-Matt

Me too

mdccclxix
02-08-2010, 06:30 PM
He could have an Aurillia effect on this team, consistently churning out singles and doubles all year. I like the idea.

Number_Fourteen
02-08-2010, 07:25 PM
I highly disagree!

Then, you're clearly overestimating the rest of the division. If the Reds can avoid injuries to key players, with Bailey and Cueto continuing to improve, then why not? Toss in Harang turning it around after two down seasons and Arroyo having a repeat of the last two seasons, and you have four very solid guys in the rotation. Not to mention, a few very good wild cards for the 5th spot; Chapman, Leake, Mahoney, et al. We have pretty decent middle relief and a proven closer. Perhaps Volquez can contribute down the stretch as well. I like where the Reds sit currently.

The Reds will have a big hitting infield at all four spots, and a pretty solid D at those positions as well. We've got a little depth at catcher, and a few more wild cards in the outfield. A Damon acquisition would nix 1/3 of the wild card quotient in the outfield, leaving Stubbs & Bruce as the remaining guys that would need to have decent seasons at the plate. Bruce probably more so, in particular. Defensively, between the latter two, what's not to like?

Are the other Central teams really that strong from an objective standpoint, or do we simply expect to lose every year?

Vottomatic
02-08-2010, 10:45 PM
I'm lukewarm about Damon. If they sign, that's great. If they don't, I won't lose sleep about it.

I just don't think he is what is going to make a difference in this team.

roby
02-09-2010, 12:52 AM
I highly disagree!

Are you a reds fan? If so, why do so many Reds fans have such a loser mentality. Things have changed. Quit living in the past. Don't you see any difference this year at all? If your not a Reds fan, nevermind.

Number_Fourteen
02-09-2010, 01:00 AM
I'm lukewarm about Damon. If they sign, that's great. If they don't, I won't lose sleep about it.

I just don't think he is what is going to make a difference in this team.

Perhaps not. However, I'd consider Damon in left an improvement over Gomes or all else that's in house, currently. I think Jocketty has done a great job at slowly improving most positions overall. Damon, one might argue, is a slight upgrade (I'd guess, moderate). Nonetheless, he's proven, does several things very well, and gives the Reds a better shot at the division or wild card in 2010.

Mr Larkin
02-09-2010, 01:18 AM
Damon would be worth a flier, but nothing too expensive. I would love to see Juan Francisco kill it in ST and win the position, but that is just a dream I'm afraid.

Ghosts of 1990
02-09-2010, 09:29 AM
I think Dickerson will out produce Johnny Damon in 2010 if the Reds would have signed Damon and given him a chance

Ohioballplayer
02-09-2010, 09:47 AM
I think Dickerson will out produce Johnny Damon in 2010 if the Reds would have signed Damon and given him a chance

Really?

I disagree with that, Dickerson is still unproven and you dont know what you are going to get, the only liability with Damon is his arm, his bat more than makes up for that, and yes he is a proven leadoff man. Dickerson can spell him sometimes, but I will take the proven commodity and the clubhouse positive and the leadoff bat, and the so called protection in the lineup for other players.

Vottomatic
02-09-2010, 11:17 AM
I don't think Dickerson gets enough credit from the fans. He played pretty well when healthy. His defense turns doubles into singles everytime.

Carin4Narron
02-09-2010, 12:18 PM
Then, you're clearly overestimating the rest of the division. If the Reds can avoid injuries to key players, with Bailey and Cueto continuing to improve, then why not? Toss in Harang turning it around after two down seasons and Arroyo having a repeat of the last two seasons, and you have four very solid guys in the rotation. Not to mention, a few very good wild cards for the 5th spot; Chapman, Leake, Mahoney, et al. We have pretty decent middle relief and a proven closer. Perhaps Volquez can contribute down the stretch as well. I like where the Reds sit currently.

The Reds will have a big hitting infield at all four spots, and a pretty solid D at those positions as well. We've got a little depth at catcher, and a few more wild cards in the outfield. A Damon acquisition would nix 1/3 of the wild card quotient in the outfield, leaving Stubbs & Bruce as the remaining guys that would need to have decent seasons at the plate. Bruce probably more so, in particular. Defensively, between the latter two, what's not to like?

Are the other Central teams really that strong from an objective standpoint, or do we simply expect to lose every year? Dare I ask this, wasn't Jr., Dunn, Kearns, etc. a waste to be on the Reds. Did the team win anything with those players on the team? The answer is a big fat NO! Dare I say this, Arroyo,Harang,and Brandon are a waste to have on this team because they have proven that they can't win anything with them!

swaisuc
02-09-2010, 12:31 PM
I don't think Dickerson gets enough credit from the fans. He played pretty well when healthy. His defense turns doubles into singles everytime.

I think Dickerson fills a role on this team very well even if they land Damon. He gives you an ability to have a plus defender that you can double switch in to several positions or use to rest any of your starting outfield. I think automatically assuming Dickerson goes to the bench with a Damon signing is a mistake IMO. I envision a scenerio where Dickerson is not our opening day left fielder and still makes a way to enter 120 games in 1 way or another.

If he does that, CD might be more likely to stay healthy and contribute the most to this team.

Not to mention the expansion of his playing time when/if either Stubbs struggles or Damon gets injured.

With all that said, I still think someone besides the Reds overpays for Johnny Damon so none of this will matter.

OGB
02-09-2010, 12:58 PM
Dare I ask this, wasn't Jr., Dunn, Kearns, etc. a waste to be on the Reds. Did the team win anything with those players on the team? The answer is a big fat NO! Dare I say this, Arroyo,Harang,and Brandon are a waste to have on this team because they have proven that they can't win anything with them!

Come on, this argument barely even warrants a response since there was obviously so little thought put into it. Jr. and Dunn never played on a team in Cincinnati that had much talent, and Kearns really only had one good season in his entire big league career.
I think Number Fourteen did a pretty good job explaining the depth and talent of this year's team at all positions, and as far as I'm concerned, the SP, RP, and infield are as strong and deep as any they've had in a decade.
This team is built to be competitive this year, with plenty of prospects on the verge of contributing at the big league level or being trade bait in June if the situation warrants it. Adding another veteran with post season experience might be enough to make the Reds a legitimate wild card contender.

OGB
02-09-2010, 01:01 PM
I think Dickerson fills a role on this team very well even if they land Damon. He gives you an ability to have a plus defender that you can double switch in to several positions or use to rest any of your starting outfield. I think automatically assuming Dickerson goes to the bench with a Damon signing is a mistake IMO. I envision a scenerio where Dickerson is not our opening day left fielder and still makes a way to enter 120 games in 1 way or another.

If he does that, CD might be more likely to stay healthy and contribute the most to this team.

Not to mention the expansion of his playing time when/if either Stubbs struggles or Damon gets injured.

With all that said, I still think someone besides the Reds overpays for Johnny Damon so none of this will matter.

I tend to agree with your points here, but I also seem to remember that Dickerson's defense struggled quite a bit last year when he was repeatedly moved from one OF position to the next. Just a thought. Hopefully he can avoid that this year

Mr Larkin
02-09-2010, 01:29 PM
I think Dickerson will out produce Johnny Damon in 2010 if the Reds would have signed Damon and given him a chance

I would love to think that Dickerson can be productive over a full season and make the kind of impact that Damon would - but I haven't seen it and don't know if we will see it. There seems to be a big pool of Dickerson believers on this board and I guess I would consider myself a Dickerson supporter, but he has done little to give me hope that he can equal or pass Damon at this stage.

will5979
02-09-2010, 01:51 PM
I highly disagree!

Who cares what you think.

TracyJonesFan
02-09-2010, 03:30 PM
The way I see it there is no risk in signing Damon to a 1 year reasonable deal.

If the Reds are in the playoff hunt in August it will be worth it.

If they aren't you have to assume that Damon, Arroyo, and Harang will be traded at the deadline. The money you save by shipping them at the deadline will make up for what you paid him the 1st half of season. Plus you will get prospects in return!

roby
02-09-2010, 03:59 PM
Dare I ask this, wasn't Jr., Dunn, Kearns, etc. a waste to be on the Reds. Did the team win anything with those players on the team? The answer is a big fat NO! Dare I say this, Arroyo,Harang,and Brandon are a waste to have on this team because they have proven that they can't win anything with them!

O.K. Now we all KNOW you're crazy!

Carin4Narron
02-09-2010, 04:27 PM
O.K. Now we all KNOW you're crazy!

Crazy like a fox knowing for a fact that the Reds have no shot for this year and for years to come until they find a clue to become a good team!

fugowitribe
02-09-2010, 05:09 PM
We don't need to look too far into this. On the Baseball Tonight show at 3:30 today, Kurkjian went back on what the article said , and talked about how the question to him was who was the best team for Johnny Damon?, and not Where do you think JD will end up? He went on to say that the Reds would prolly not be able to afford him, even though he solves multiple problems we currently have (Leadoff and LF).

Number_Fourteen
02-10-2010, 07:39 AM
Crazy like a fox knowing for a fact that the Reds have no shot for this year and for years to come until they find a clue to become a good team!

Yeah, above you mention the Reds went nowhere with Griffey, Dunn and Kearns, while conveniently leaving out the fact that the starting rotation from those days, often included the likes of Jimmy Haynes, Joey Hamilton & Matt Belisle. Harang was about all you could count on every 5th start!

I'm not sure if you're merely baiting, or incredibly delusional, but former Reds players haven't a place in predicting how well or not the 2010 Reds team, and beyond, will fair.

bounty37h
02-10-2010, 10:31 AM
Crazy like a fox knowing for a fact that the Reds have no shot for this year and for years to come until they find a clue to become a good team!

Kind of makes me wonder why your a fan and bother following at all then if your already set in mind they will lose, wheres the fun for you?

Newman4
02-10-2010, 07:52 PM
I think Damon even with an expected drop in production is an upgrade from Dickerson. I would sign Damon use Dickerson as suggested as a 4th OF/Defensive replacement and let the young kids play every day at Louisville and let them develop and build value.

will5979
02-11-2010, 10:27 AM
It don't matter, the Braves have reportedly offered something to him, looks like were still sitting for 2 years in a row with a question mark in LF...and management promised a powerhitting lfer LAST year...management are d0ucheb@gs.

CySeymour
02-11-2010, 11:04 AM
...and management promised a powerhitting lfer LAST year...management are d0ucheb@gs.

That is really quite harsh man. For the most part, the Reds have had a good offseason. And I never remember management PROMISING a powerhitting left leftfielder. They may have said they were targetting one, but never promised.

will5979
02-11-2010, 11:23 AM
That is really quite harsh man. For the most part, the Reds have had a good offseason. And I never remember management PROMISING a powerhitting left leftfielder. They may have said they were targetting one, but never promised.

Harsh? HARSH? Let me tell you what is harsh, 9 straight losing seasons, no postseasons since 1995, and no Pennants or World Titles since 1990. Now who is more harsh our idiot owners or my comments trying to call them out to motivate them and make a legit change? They did say that was their top priority last year, they didn't deliver, and look what happened...not to mention Adam Dunn will hit over 600 career HRs and be a sure fire HOFer, they are idiots!

CySeymour
02-11-2010, 11:56 AM
Harsh? HARSH? Let me tell you what is harsh, 9 straight losing seasons, no postseasons since 1995, and no Pennants or World Titles since 1990. Now who is more harsh our idiot owners or my comments trying to call them out to motivate them and make a legit change? They did say that was their top priority last year, they didn't deliver, and look what happened...not to mention Adam Dunn will hit over 600 career HRs and be a sure fire HOFer, they are idiots!

It may have been the top priority, but I never remember a promise, which is what you stated. And to be fair, they did find a power hitting leftfielder last year. Johnny Gomes.

Carin4Narron
02-11-2010, 12:11 PM
Harsh? HARSH? Let me tell you what is harsh, 9 straight losing seasons, no postseasons since 1995, and no Pennants or World Titles since 1990. Now who is more harsh our idiot owners or my comments trying to call them out to motivate them and make a legit change? They did say that was their top priority last year, they didn't deliver, and look what happened...not to mention Adam Dunn will hit over 600 career HRs and be a sure fire HOFer, they are idiots!

Finally another guy on here that has a clue of how clueless the Reds have been!

big boy
02-12-2010, 03:59 PM
The Damon arguments are summed up here (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/344369-point-counterpoint-should-the-reds-sign-johnny-damon#poll).

roby
02-14-2010, 03:59 PM
Finally another guy on here that has a clue of how clueless the Reds have been!

There are now 2 smart guys on Redszone!

Kingspoint
02-14-2010, 08:46 PM
I don't think Dickerson gets enough credit from the fans. He played pretty well when healthy. His defense turns doubles into singles everytime.

Without a doubt. There shouldn't even be a discussion of a Left Field need.

Left Field wasn't our problem last year. It was Right Field. Jay Bruce stunk it up all season. No reason to replace either one of them.

The thing with Left Field, is that if Dickerson falters and does "something different than what he has done during his time in the Majors", then there are plenty of substitutes who can step in for a short time to see how they'll do.

will5979
02-15-2010, 01:49 AM
Without a doubt. There shouldn't even be a discussion of a Left Field need.

Left Field wasn't our problem last year. It was Right Field. Jay Bruce stunk it up all season. No reason to replace either one of them.

The thing with Left Field, is that if Dickerson falters and does "something different than what he has done during his time in the Majors", then there are plenty of substitutes who can step in for a short time to see how they'll do.

Dickerson sucks major cajones and is HIGHLY overrated by enamored Reds fans.

Griffey012
02-15-2010, 02:21 AM
Is there an ignore feature on this board?

Kingspoint
02-15-2010, 05:58 AM
Dickerson sucks major cajones and is HIGHLY overrated by enamored Reds fans.

Yeah, that lifetime .383 OBP and lifetime .823 OPS and lifetime .985 Fielding Percentage and lifetime 15.6 UZR/150 in the Outfield really sucks, doesn't it? Just get rid of guys like that. Who needs them?

Dickerson had a UZR/150 of 45.5 in 170 Inn. last season compared to Stubb's 28.5 in 368 Inn. and Taveras' 14.1 in 839 Inn. when comparing last year's Center Fielders.

When comparing last year's Left Fielders...

Dickerson had a UZR/150 of 21.8 in 170 Inn. compared to Nix' 12.8 558 Inn., Gomes' 2.2 in 253 Inn., McDonald's 1.8 in 124 Inn., and Balentien's 23.7 in 155 Inn.

It's a very good thing that we're going into camp with Dickerson as the favorite for the Left Field spot. Of course, we all wish he was batting 2nd instead of Cabrera, but he'll be useful in the 8th spot, too.

Oh, and he's also stolen 16 of 22 bases in his career, while adding 5 assists with 3 Double-Plays last year in limited playing time.

will5979
02-15-2010, 10:28 AM
Yeah, that lifetime .383 OBP and lifetime .823 OPS and lifetime .985 Fielding Percentage and lifetime 15.6 UZR/150 in the Outfield really sucks, doesn't it? Just get rid of guys like that. Who needs them?

Dickerson had a UZR/150 of 45.5 in 170 Inn. last season compared to Stubb's 28.5 in 368 Inn. and Taveras' 14.1 in 839 Inn. when comparing last year's Center Fielders.

When comparing last year's Left Fielders...

Dickerson had a UZR/150 of 21.8 in 170 Inn. compared to Nix' 12.8 558 Inn., Gomes' 2.2 in 253 Inn., McDonald's 1.8 in 124 Inn., and Balentien's 23.7 in 155 Inn.

It's a very good thing that we're going into camp with Dickerson as the favorite for the Left Field spot. Of course, we all wish he was batting 2nd instead of Cabrera, but he'll be useful in the 8th spot, too.

Oh, and he's also stolen 16 of 22 bases in his career, while adding 5 assists with 3 Double-Plays last year in limited playing time.

Yeah lets take a no name over JOhnny Damon, makes sense, you have bought into the owner's mentality.

CySeymour
02-15-2010, 11:48 AM
Yeah lets take a no name over JOhnny Damon, makes sense, you have bought into the owner's mentality.

When finances aren't taken into consideration, then yeah, you take Damon any day of the week. But that isn't the case. My guess is BCast would LOVe to have Damon, but can he offer a package that is better than the other teams chasing him? No clue.

will5979
02-15-2010, 12:08 PM
When finances aren't taken into consideration, then yeah, you take Damon any day of the week. But that isn't the case. My guess is BCast would LOVe to have Damon, but can he offer a package that is better than the other teams chasing him? No clue.

Which is my MAIN argument as to why this franchise will never be as successful as they once were, owners inept abilities to spend proper dollars to field a WINNING (not competitive) ballclub. Hell every teams competes until at least May.

CySeymour
02-15-2010, 12:22 PM
Which is my MAIN argument as to why this franchise will never be as successful as they once were, owners inept abilities to spend proper dollars to field a WINNING (not competitive) ballclub. Hell every teams competes until at least May.

Now this is the jist of the whole thing. I actually am ok with the teams current payroll. But you are right, it comes down to spending what you have smartly.

PhatHead
02-15-2010, 12:59 PM
I guess it comes down to whether you want to have the LF problem again next year before spring training. What if we sign Damon to a one year deal and he hits 275/12/70 or we let Balentine and Dickerson hit 248/15/60 this year but be better prepared to take the reigns next year. Both sides have their pluses and minuses.

UPRedsFan
02-15-2010, 01:32 PM
Very good point about Damon only filling the need for 2010 vs. getting the young guys rolling.

Here's a question for those upset with management for not signing Damon.

Would you have rather spent money on a 3 yr contract for a declining Johnny Damon if it meant not having anything left to sign Cabrera and Chapman?

I'll take the choice of Chapman and Cabrera. And I'll wager that Dusty can get some production from left field with the options he's given. Dickerson and Fransisco from the left side. Heisey, Balentein, Frazier or possibly Gomes from the right side. Or, maybe, just maybe... a healthy Alonzo catches fire and forces his way to Cincinnati by June and Votto moves to left field.

I like the moves and the confidence in the young guys

UPRedsFan
02-15-2010, 01:49 PM
Forgot Nix from the left side. He OPS'd .800 against right handed pitchers last year.

BigRedsFan_19
02-16-2010, 09:47 AM
I just think Damon is not a good fit at all. The Reds are going to build thru
youth and with that comes developing leadership. Rolen is going to be the
clubhouse leader on this team, showing Brandon P. and Joey V. how to
become leaders. Damon although he still has skills, is simply too old and
not at all in tune with the way that Jocketty is building this team.

Juan F. , Chris H. and Wladimer B. are going to be given shots to be the
opening day left fielder. They are the favorites IMO to win the position.

will5979
02-16-2010, 02:28 PM
Both sides have their pluses and minuses.

I'll be drinking a lot this summer, have a bad feeling that this year will be just like any other.

BLEEDS
02-16-2010, 04:04 PM
Yeah, that lifetime .383 OBP and lifetime .823 OPS and lifetime .985 Fielding Percentage and lifetime 15.6 UZR/150 in the Outfield really sucks, doesn't it? Just get rid of guys like that. Who needs them?

Dickerson had a UZR/150 of 45.5 in 170 Inn. last season compared to Stubb's 28.5 in 368 Inn. and Taveras' 14.1 in 839 Inn. when comparing last year's Center Fielders.

When comparing last year's Left Fielders...

Dickerson had a UZR/150 of 21.8 in 170 Inn. compared to Nix' 12.8 558 Inn., Gomes' 2.2 in 253 Inn., McDonald's 1.8 in 124 Inn., and Balentien's 23.7 in 155 Inn.

It's a very good thing that we're going into camp with Dickerson as the favorite for the Left Field spot. Of course, we all wish he was batting 2nd instead of Cabrera, but he'll be useful in the 8th spot, too.

Oh, and he's also stolen 16 of 22 bases in his career, while adding 5 assists with 3 Double-Plays last year in limited playing time.

Dude. I thought you said you Didn't Believe in Defensive Stats!?!
Seems like you are living by them now. If you are, you'd better remember how UZR is supposed to be utilized for interpretation (hint: it's not over the equivalent of 3/4ths of one major league season).
And again, LF D is the least of our worries.

And you do know those "lifetime" numbers you speak of, are over a total of 128 games, 357 AB's, and 770 innings/200 Chances in MLB right?

His minor league numbers are .974 FP and .776 OPS over 626 games, 2200+ AB's and 1386 Chances.

Whatever Dickerson may or may not be in the ML, it's hardly enough to proclaim "there shouldn't even be a discussion about LF".

Give. Me. A. Break.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kingspoint
02-17-2010, 06:07 AM
Dude. I thought you said you Didn't Believe in Defensive Stats!?!
Seems like you are living by them now. If you are, you'd better remember how UZR is supposed to be utilized for interpretation (hint: it's not over the equivalent of 3/4ths of one major league season).
And again, LF D is the least of our worries.

And you do know those "lifetime" numbers you speak of, are over a total of 128 games, 357 AB's, and 770 innings/200 Chances in MLB right?

His minor league numbers are .974 FP and .776 OPS over 626 games, 2200+ AB's and 1386 Chances.

Whatever Dickerson may or may not be in the ML, it's hardly enough to proclaim "there shouldn't even be a discussion about LF".

Give. Me. A. Break.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

You know I don't. I was throwing that out there because I couldn't believe what he said about Dickerson. I thought it sounded better than "I don't think so".

Personally, I wasn't planning on Dickerson being a full-time Left Fielder in 2010. I still don't. The REDS have too many options the second half of the season for that to happen. To me, Dickerson should be a 3rd/4th Outfielder this season.

As far as Dickerson's Minor League numbers are concerned, I don't care what they are. I find them to be irrelevant after "a light turned on for him the last week of May in 2009". Only the numbers from May of 2009 are what I care about when it comes to Dickerson, as these numbers are his true numbers one can expect from him. That would be like me expecting you to perform your job now the same way you performed it your first month on the job. That's just not reality. People change with experience, and expectations change with it, not based on long ago past performance under completely different scenarios (different leagues, different age, different maturity level, different physical ability, different emotions, different work ethic, etc.)

BLEEDS
02-17-2010, 12:47 PM
As far as Dickerson's Minor League numbers are concerned, I don't care what they are. I find them to be irrelevant...


Really? SERIOUSLY!?!

While it's true that good minor league numbers don't translate to good Major League numbers, they do give you SOME indication of a person's true abilities. Especially when someone tallys 7 years and 2600 PA's in the minors.


Only the numbers from May of 2009 are what I care about when it comes to Dickerson, as these numbers are his true numbers one can expect from him.

SOOoo.... 48 games started in MLB, 200-ish AB's, is now THE litmus for Chris Dickerson.

Got it.

:rolleyes:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kingspoint
02-17-2010, 07:08 PM
Really? SERIOUSLY!?!

While it's true that good minor league numbers don't translate to good Major League numbers, they do give you SOME indication of a person's true abilities. Especially when someone tallys 7 years and 2600 PA's in the minors.



SOOoo.... 48 games started in MLB, 200-ish AB's, is now THE litmus for Chris Dickerson.

Got it.

:rolleyes:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Yes. Yes. and Yes.

It's going on 21 months now of my feeling this way, and for 21 months, Dickerson has proved this to be true. There's absolutely no reason to to the back of his baseball card and dig up old stats to try to come up with something that doesn't match the reality of what he's shown he's capable of doing over the last 21 months.

8 months from now, after he's posted another season with an OBP over .360, will you still deny that what's happened since May of 2009 is all that matters with him? I certainly hope not.

What you can use the "old" stats for is his length for how long he'll hold onto where he's at right now. Yes. He's not going to sustain the .360-.370 OBP when he's 30 and older. As he doesn't have that "pedigree". But, for this stage of his career, in 2010, he's going to continue to post an OBP of .360+, and play GREAT defense. That's a fantastic combination for 2010.

BLEEDS
02-18-2010, 11:02 AM
21 months or May of 2009, which is it?!?!?!
You constantly contradict yourself, it's simply amazing.

Pedigree? If he had a pedigree, it might have been indicative of his 7 years in the minors. What you're claiming is his pedigree has totally changed, in 21 or 9 months, take your pick.
So far, his pedigree is also that he gets injured all the time.

Whatever, it's not really worth arguing over a 27 year old 4th/5th OF-er who is best suited for CF who might enjoy the next year or two being miscast as a platoon LFer. We have a ton of REAL prospects ready to take that position over, hopefully sooner than later.

It would have been nice to get a real stop-gap/veteran who you could pencil in some decent projectable stats versus extrapolating a small sample-sized AAAA guy and assuming he will replicate what thus far appears to be outlier/career year numbers.

I already have enough bets with you, and I'm really trying to cut back on my pizza anyways, so we'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that! ;)

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kingspoint
02-18-2010, 06:11 PM
21 months or May of 2009, which is it?!?!?!
You constantly contradict yourself, it's simply amazing.

Pedigree? If he had a pedigree, it might have been indicative of his 7 years in the minors. What you're claiming is his pedigree has totally changed, in 21 or 9 months, take your pick.
So far, his pedigree is also that he gets injured all the time.

Whatever, it's not really worth arguing over a 27 year old 4th/5th OF-er who is best suited for CF who might enjoy the next year or two being miscast as a platoon LFer. We have a ton of REAL prospects ready to take that position over, hopefully sooner than later.

It would have been nice to get a real stop-gap/veteran who you could pencil in some decent projectable stats versus extrapolating a small sample-sized AAAA guy and assuming he will replicate what thus far appears to be outlier/career year numbers.

I already have enough bets with you, and I'm really trying to cut back on my pizza anyways, so we'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that! ;)

PEACE

-BLEEDS

May of 2008. Excuse me.

1990REDS
02-18-2010, 06:24 PM
I love the Reds, but the reasonable baseball fan in me is saying that the Reds are more than just a past his prime left fielder away from being contenders. Lets face it, if Damon was still a diffrence maker the Yankees would have resigned him. But with all that said i think signing him to a 1 year deal for reasonable money wouldnt be a complete waste of money. He has expierience and has won his whole career. Could at least bring a winning attitude to the clubhouse.

will5979
02-18-2010, 06:39 PM
I love the Reds, but the reasonable baseball fan in me is saying that the Reds are more than just a past his prime left fielder away from being contenders. Lets face it, if Damon was still a diffrence maker the Yankees would have resigned him. But with all that said i think signing him to a 1 year deal for reasonable money wouldnt be a complete waste of money. He has expierience and has won his whole career. Could at least bring a winning attitude to the clubhouse.

I understand where you are coming from, trust me I've followed this club since the mid-80s. But put this into perspective...granted the offense stuggled last year but is was another year of playing time for the players to gel with another and hopefully lead this team back to winning. When players like Votto, Phillips, Bruce, and Stubbs can grow and work as a team, this offense is due to produce, Rolen will help tremendously with his leadership, and I for one would much rather take my chance with an aging HAS BEEN then a budding NEVER WILL BE, trust me Dickerson is one of those NEVER WILL BE.

CRedsLarkin11
02-18-2010, 08:15 PM
I'm not fascinated with Damon and I actually see the points some people are trying to make against him, but wouldn't you rather have someone who we know is going to produce in left than a platoon with Nix and Dickerson? The only reason I wouldn't want Damon is if he was going to block Heisey or another prospect but it's going to be Nix and Dickerson doing that instead.

Chris Sabowned
02-18-2010, 08:18 PM
I'm not fascinated with Damon and I actually see the points some people are trying to make against him, but wouldn't you rather have someone who we know is going to produce in left than a platoon with Nix and Dickerson? The only reason I wouldn't want Damon is if he was going to block Heisey or another prospect but it's going to be Nix and Dickerson doing that instead.

I feel like the difference is that since Damon is a proven player he would stay in the lineup no matter how he performs, whereas if Dickerson/Nix struggle we might see Heisey or Fransisco by June.

CRedsLarkin11
02-18-2010, 09:39 PM
I feel like the difference is that since Damon is a proven player he would stay in the lineup no matter how he performs, whereas if Dickerson/Nix struggle we might see Heisey or Fransisco by June.

That's a good point. I guess that would be just as well it's just that usually the Reds let these guys wear out their welcome before they promote anyone

Kingspoint
02-19-2010, 07:24 AM
May of 2008. Excuse me.

I just noticed that could have sounded "sarcastic". It wasn't meant to be.

brm7675
02-19-2010, 01:15 PM
In the past they have been, but now we have people in charge who know what they are doing.


Finally another guy on here that has a clue of how clueless the Reds have been!

brm7675
02-19-2010, 01:17 PM
Okay how much does it cost to win? 90 million? 110 million? how much does it cost to win?


Which is my MAIN argument as to why this franchise will never be as successful as they once were, owners inept abilities to spend proper dollars to field a WINNING (not competitive) ballclub. Hell every teams competes until at least May.

brm7675
02-19-2010, 01:22 PM
What makes you think Chicago or St. Louis or even the Brewers are that much better then the Reds?


I love the Reds, but the reasonable baseball fan in me is saying that the Reds are more than just a past his prime left fielder away from being contenders. Lets face it, if Damon was still a diffrence maker the Yankees would have resigned him. But with all that said i think signing him to a 1 year deal for reasonable money wouldnt be a complete waste of money. He has expierience and has won his whole career. Could at least bring a winning attitude to the clubhouse.

will5979
02-19-2010, 02:36 PM
Okay how much does it cost to win? 90 million? 110 million? how much does it cost to win?

DO you have diarrea of the mouth or something? You have a total of 7 freakin posts and you are just simply replying on every post trying to get something started.

Carin4Narron
02-19-2010, 02:55 PM
In the past they have been, but now we have people in charge who know what they are doing.

They sure proved that last season,didn't they?

brm7675
02-19-2010, 02:58 PM
No I asked a question, if you don't have the information to answer them then why worry about it?


DO you have diarrea of the mouth or something? You have a total of 7 freakin posts and you are just simply replying on every post trying to get something started.

brm7675
02-19-2010, 03:03 PM
yes they did, they went out and got a veteran player to play 3rd. They left the rookies alone to grow and learn and promoted up young talent. What in your opinion did they do so wrong last year?


They sure proved that last season,didn't they?

1990REDS
02-19-2010, 05:41 PM
What makes you think Chicago or St. Louis or even the Brewers are that much better then the Reds?

There ability to make the playoffs in recent years. our ability to not have a winning season since 2000. Yes the brewers are probably gonna take steps back this year but the cubs and cards should still be in the hunt this year. I really wish the reds were far and away the best team in the central and i really hope im wrong. Also im not saying the reds are bad im just saying there more than 1 player away from being title contenders.

brm7675
02-19-2010, 06:09 PM
The Brewers had their run when they made the deal for CC, I don't see them near the top this season. The Cubs have way to many health issues and performance questions to really believe they can challenge. The Cards won the division last year, but have health issues at pitching. I believe the Reds have the talent, the question will how the youth progresses and can rolen give us 130+ games and can Harrang return to 2007 levels. If so I don't see why this team can't get to 90-95 wins.


There ability to make the playoffs in recent years. our ability to not have a winning season since 2000. Yes the brewers are probably gonna take steps back this year but the cubs and cards should still be in the hunt this year. I really wish the reds were far and away the best team in the central and i really hope im wrong. Also im not saying the reds are bad im just saying there more than 1 player away from being title contenders.

1990REDS
02-19-2010, 06:40 PM
The Brewers had their run when they made the deal for CC, I don't see them near the top this season. The Cubs have way to many health issues and performance questions to really believe they can challenge. The Cards won the division last year, but have health issues at pitching. I believe the Reds have the talent, the question will how the youth progresses and can rolen give us 130+ games and can Harrang return to 2007 levels. If so I don't see why this team can't get to 90-95 wins.

Health will be the big question this year. The central is weak and it may come down to whos healthiest at the end. Dont even think we would need 95 wins to win the division. I also think we need another power bat from the right hand side and a legitimate leadoff man who can get on, get into scoring position and let Votto, Phillips and Rolen produce runs. 130 games is the magic number for Rolen. We know hes consistant and if he gives us 130+ games it would be huge.

Kingspoint
02-20-2010, 03:11 AM
What makes you think St. Louis are that much better then the Reds?

Adam Wainwright..........2.63 ERA
Chris Carpenter...........2.24 ERA
Albert Pujols..........1.101 OPS

You don't get losing streaks with those three on the club, unless one of them gets injured.

Otherwise, you're right.

Carin4Narron
02-20-2010, 12:03 PM
yes they did, they went out and got a veteran player to play 3rd. They left the rookies alone to grow and learn and promoted up young talent. What in your opinion did they do so wrong last year?

Please! Getting Rolen when they were hopelessly out of it was purely a P.R. move,they could say look we did something! Watch Rolen to be wasted this year on a yet another Reds team that stinks!

BigPoppa
02-23-2010, 11:19 AM
Getting back to Johnny Damon........he's a Tiger now. 1 yr./$ 8 M

bgwilly31
02-23-2010, 06:37 PM
yes they did, they went out and got a veteran player to play 3rd. They left the rookies alone to grow and learn and promoted up young talent. What in your opinion did they do so wrong last year?

You could argue that the people in control of the reds for the past 20yrs have done the same thing. And look where thats gotten us.

Carin4Narron
02-24-2010, 12:02 PM
You could argue that the people in control of the reds for the past 20yrs have done the same thing. And look where thats gotten us.

Bingo, my friend!

will5979
02-24-2010, 12:49 PM
Getting back to Johnny Damon........he's a Tiger now. 1 yr./$ 8 M

Well, probably for the best we didn't spend the 8 mil. Take a chance with Gomes, but please for the love of God leave Chris typical Reds' fan man crush Dickerson on the bench.

Kingspoint
02-24-2010, 06:26 PM
Well, probably for the best we didn't spend the 8 mil. Take a chance with Gomes, but please for the love of God leave Chris typical Reds' fan man crush Dickerson on the bench.

Sorry if I like guys posting OBP's (with speed on the basepaths) better than anyone else on the team getting at-bats at the top of the lineup.

You may be a Bakermetrics guy, but it's not for me.

will5979
02-24-2010, 06:49 PM
You may be a Bakermetrics guy, but it's not for me.

I don't even know what that means...nor do I really give 2 craps.

What I do care about is the fact that Chris Dickerson is a backup that should not even be in consideration for the starting LF job; he was given a starting job once, remember how that worked out?

Dickerson 2 HR 15 RBI in 237 ABs
Gomes 20 HR 51 RBI in 287 ABs

I'll take a man that can actually hit the long ball and drive in runs thank you, I want the team to WIN.

Vottomatic
04-29-2010, 08:33 PM
Damon currently has an OBP of .420.

But we're happy platooning Stubbs and Dickerson with their whopping .320 OBP.......if it's even that.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/04/free-agent-hot-starts.html

HalMorrisRules
04-29-2010, 09:11 PM
Damon's salary is also $8,000,000. You left that important stat out.

scott91575
04-30-2010, 12:43 AM
Damon's salary is also $8,000,000. You left that important stat out.

Exactly. It's not like they wouldn't have liked Damon, but he is too expensive for the Reds. The FO has already stated they are at if not over budget.

Mutaman
04-30-2010, 01:03 AM
Plus Damon has become a liability on defense. Sorry, not at that salery.

TC81190
04-30-2010, 03:22 AM
Plus Damon has become a liability on defense. Sorry, not at that salery.
I wouldn't call our left field defense spectacular either.

He's not going to keep a .420 OBP this year, but Damon is going to earn his salary, and I would have been glad to see the Reds pay it.

Griffey012
04-30-2010, 03:28 AM
I wouldn't call our left field defense spectacular either.

He's not going to keep a .420 OBP this year, but Damon is going to earn his salary, and I would have been glad to see the Reds pay it.

But I dont think the person paying the checks would have been happy to take an 8 million dollar hit.