PDA

View Full Version : CF and Lead off hitter



RED59
02-26-2010, 11:15 AM
Dusty is going to give us another line up which produces few top of the order runs. He will use Stubbs as lead off hitter followed by Cabrera. This is a disaster in the making. A combined OBP of less than .320. Maybe we will win 80 games with this top of the order. Stubbs's numbers in minors do not justify him as a starter. Start Dickinson (OBP .370) and send Stubbs to Loiusville to play full time. If he gets hurt, then Stubbs can replace him.

BLEEDS
02-26-2010, 04:10 PM
There's an entire thread on this over in tORG. I think you'll find justification as to why Stubbs is the better option to give 500 AB's in CF this year. I suggest you take a read.

Stubbs power potential gives him Ricky Henderson-type leadoff potential. He had tons of power in the college, just hasn't translated much in his minor league career - but he flashed some in his MLB stint, and it may be here to stay.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Red Rover
02-26-2010, 04:37 PM
The Reds system is loaded with Center Fielders. I could care less if its Stubbs, Dickerson, Heisley or down the road Yorman. Each individual has their strengths.

Right Field should be fine with Bruce, but thats not a positive either.

Left field is the biggest concern for the Reds. They have a number of guys fighting for this spot, but I'm not sure any can turn into the monster bat we need.

bgwilly31
02-26-2010, 04:55 PM
Left field is not the biggest concern for the reds. They have plenty of players int he system for left field as well.

Finding a true lead off hitter/ CF is the primary concern for the outfield.

This team desperately needs a lead off hitter.


Stubbs flashes of power came with a huge price. That price being strikeouts. Take a peak at those numbers last year.

Im very concern with the whole stubbs Lead off hitter for the year thing.

OC behind him is much less of a concern. Im betting before the season is over people might be crying to let OC leadoff and push stubbs down the order. Im hoping im wrong and stubbs becomes a great leadoff.

Red Rover
02-26-2010, 05:14 PM
I disagree, any of the CF options will improve the lead off position. The Reds leadoff position has been terrible for 3 years now, I can't see it getting worse or being a concern.

A big RH bat in the middle of the line up is what needs fixed on this team, BP is not a #4 hitter and never should be.

Kingspoint
02-26-2010, 07:54 PM
The Center Field position should be played out in Spring Training and the winner gets to open the year there. Bruce is the only player who truly needs the At-bats every day. The REDS have to "force" him to improve. All others can earn it.

Vottomatic
02-26-2010, 09:35 PM
Heisey
Votto
Bruce

3 young guys that are going to continue to surprise.

FlyerFanatic
02-26-2010, 10:49 PM
i wanna see heisey and frazier up soon, from all the talk i hear about them, sounds like they are tearing up AAA ball. no reason leaving them down there longer than they need to be.

BLEEDS
02-27-2010, 10:30 AM
If Heisey keeps up his early looking bat throughout Spring, it'll be hard to send him down.

Frazier has a chance to stay with this team as the Super-Utility guy, but that would mean not playing everyday. If his ultimate ceiling is Super-Utility guy, then yeah bring him up, but methinks the FO sees him as a possible(hopeful?) FT 2B/3B/OF, so not sure that is the best way to develop him.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

bgwilly31
02-27-2010, 11:47 AM
The Reds leadoff position has been terrible for 3 years now, I can't see it getting worse or being a concern.

.

I agree it cant get worse. But if it stays bad then it definitely is Still a concern.

1990REDS
02-27-2010, 08:48 PM
Gotta go with Stubbs. I think he has a much higher upside than any other option.

Newman4
02-27-2010, 09:28 PM
The Reds leadoff position has been terrible for 3 years now, I can't see it getting worse or being a concern.

The ghost of Tony Womack says "boo" ;)

BLEEDS
02-28-2010, 11:03 AM
From C. Trent:

Dusty on Dickerson: 'You can be disappointed all you want to, but he allowed Stubbs to get his foot in the door.'

http://twitter.com/ctrent

More Dusty on Dickerson: 'Stubbs hit 8 home runs in probably 1/2 the at-bats Dickerson had, what did Dickerson have, 2? Reality’s reality.'

http://twitter.com/cnatist10


PEACE

-BLEEDS

ian_madden
02-28-2010, 11:59 AM
i wanna see heisey and frazier up soon, from all the talk i hear about them, sounds like they are tearing up AAA ball. no reason leaving them down there longer than they need to be.

I don't want real potential in the big leagues just to say they are in the big leagues. I didn't mind when they brought up Janish and Rosales b/c they weren't going to improve with more seasoning. Let Heisey and Frazier get everyday at bats. Let them hone their craft, let them mature. When the time is right, and sitting on the bench is not the right time, then bring them up. Someone will get hurt, they always do.

gedred69
02-28-2010, 02:50 PM
I don't want real potential in the big leagues just to say they are in the big leagues. I didn't mind when they brought up Janish and Rosales b/c they weren't going to improve with more seasoning. Let Heisey and Frazier get everyday at bats. Let them hone their craft, let them mature. When the time is right, and sitting on the bench is not the right time, then bring them up. Someone will get hurt, they always do.

Kinda' what I was thinking. I see Miles as being the super-sub for this year. If he flops, or someone is injured, then bring on the prospects.

Baseball Lover
02-28-2010, 05:49 PM
From C. Trent:

Dusty on Dickerson: 'You can be disappointed all you want to, but he allowed Stubbs to get his foot in the door.'

http://twitter.com/ctrent

More Dusty on Dickerson: 'Stubbs hit 8 home runs in probably 1/2 the at-bats Dickerson had, what did Dickerson have, 2? Reality’s reality.'

http://twitter.com/cnatist10


PEACE

-BLEEDS

How did Dickerson let Stubbs get his foot in the door? Apparently Dickerson purposely injured himself. I thought Dickerson performed well last year, but leave it to Dusty to look at home runs as the ultimate judgment on a center fielder...

nemesis
02-28-2010, 07:49 PM
Stubbs while not an ideal leadoff man has a higher ceiling than Dickerson. Dickerson is 28 already and K's at a high rate. Just like Stubbs. What Stubbs brings is a Plus Plus Glove and Arm to CF, Plus Plus speed on the base paths and a above avg power potential. At 3 years younger. I believe Cabrera will do fine in the 2 hole. I'll take his .330 to .345 OBP over Janish who'd be .285 to 310...

As far as a monster bat goes in LF one way or another... That bat will come from Frazier, Alonso, Francisco or Votto. Via trade or positional switch.

BLEEDS
03-01-2010, 10:55 AM
I don't want real potential in the big leagues just to say they are in the big leagues. I didn't mind when they brought up Janish and Rosales b/c they weren't going to improve with more seasoning. Let Heisey and Frazier get everyday at bats. Let them hone their craft, let them mature. When the time is right, and sitting on the bench is not the right time, then bring them up. Someone will get hurt, they always do.


Kinda' what I was thinking. I see Miles as being the super-sub for this year. If he flops, or someone is injured, then bring on the prospects.

Agree with you both.

I do think that Frazier has a shot to make the team if he can beat out a Miles and/or Sutton. However, those guys are used to playing part time; Frazier probably still needs to play every day to further develop.

I think the bigger issue with Frazier is that one of his possible FT gigs is at third base - but he's had less and less duty their due to playing at the same level as Francisco.
I'd think if Rolen ever gets an extended (read: more than normal) stint on the DL, they may call up Frazier to get every day 3B duties, and that he sticks on the roster when Rolen comes back.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
03-01-2010, 11:20 AM
Stubbs while not an ideal leadoff man has a higher ceiling than Dickerson. Dickerson is 28 already and K's at a high rate. Just like Stubbs. What Stubbs brings is a Plus Plus Glove and Arm to CF, Plus Plus speed on the base paths and a above avg power potential. At 3 years younger. I believe Cabrera will do fine in the 2 hole. I'll take his .330 to .345 OBP over Janish who'd be .285 to 310...

Agreed. I think it is the youth/ceiling that is giving Stubbs the upper hand at this point.



As far as a monster bat goes in LF one way or another... That bat will come from Frazier, Alonso, Francisco or Votto. Via trade or positional switch.

Don't forget Heisey. I think he has the upper hand there. Frazier is better suited as a 3b/2b, Francisco is way behind everywhere except the raw power department. Alonso and Votto are both 1B-men.

Heisey is the best pure LF prospect at this point. Heck he might win the job in ST this year.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kingspoint
03-02-2010, 07:12 AM
I think Frazier will always be a Utility Outfielder for the REDS, but one who gets 250-400 AB's every year.

BLEEDS
03-02-2010, 09:09 AM
I think Frazier will always be a Utility Outfielder for the REDS, but one who gets 250-400 AB's every year.

Wow, that is REALLY different from your original post - which I agreed with - about how this will be the last year for Phillips, barring a huge offensive improvement.

I just don't think this team can fathom an $11M second baseman. I don't care if he was the second coming of Joe Morgan.
Frazier may not have the range of BP, but he could definitely fill in there, or 3B. I don't see how as a "Utility OF" he'll be able to get 400 AB's.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kingspoint
03-05-2010, 08:48 AM
Wow, that is REALLY different from your original post - which I agreed with - about how this will be the last year for Phillips, barring a huge offensive improvement.

I just don't think this team can fathom an $11M second baseman. I don't care if he was the second coming of Joe Morgan.
Frazier may not have the range of BP, but he could definitely fill in there, or 3B. I don't see how as a "Utility OF" he'll be able to get 400 AB's.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I agree this will be the last year for Phillips, too. You could see the writing on the wall when they signed him to the new contract 3 years ago that he was never going to see the $11M in a REDS uniform.

I'm sticking with what I posted 12/21/09:

2011 Major League Club:

C Hanigan (est $.48M)
1B Votto (est $3M)
2B Valaika (est $.48M)
3B Rolen ($8.17M)
SS Cozart (est $.4M)
LF Stubbs (est $.48M)
CF Heisey (est $.44M)
RF Bruce (est $5M)
UI Francisco (est $.5M)
UO Frazier (est $.44M)

(Alonso gets traded during the Winter)

TheBigLebowski
03-05-2010, 09:47 AM
Some of you guys just refuse to understand baseball.

CF bats leadoff and SS bats second, dude.

It's the proper way to play the game.

As much as I hated to lose Tavares and his awesome speed to first, I have to admit that Stubbs is pretty freaking fast as well.

BLEEDS
03-05-2010, 12:41 PM
I agree this will be the last year for Phillips, too. You could see the writing on the wall when they signed him to the new contract 3 years ago that he was never going to see the $11M in a REDS uniform.

I'm sticking with what I posted 12/21/09:

2011 Major League Club:

C Hanigan (est $.48M)
1B Votto (est $3M)
2B Valaika (est $.48M)
3B Rolen ($8.17M)
SS Cozart (est $.4M)
LF Stubbs (est $.48M)
CF Heisey (est $.44M)
RF Bruce (est $5M)
UI Francisco (est $.5M)
UO Frazier (est $.44M)

(Alonso gets traded during the Winter)

Is this before or after he starts at 1B and hits fourth?!?!

Meat Lovers with anchovies please!! :D

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kingspoint
03-05-2010, 03:54 PM
Is this before or after he starts at 1B and hits fourth?!?!

Meat Lovers with anchovies please!! :D

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I've got all of Spring and half a summer to see if Votto gets moved to LF or has another bout of passion. I'm sorry, but Alonso can only play 1st Base. But, that's what I thought about Jack Cust, as they are identical fielders, yet Oakland stuck him out in Left Field over 100 times. I guess if you want a guy's bat in the lineup, one who can OPS .900, then you stick him out there with a glove and live with the results.

Anchovies!?

Mr Larkin
03-05-2010, 04:33 PM
How did Dickerson let Stubbs get his foot in the door? Apparently Dickerson purposely injured himself. I thought Dickerson performed well last year, but leave it to Dusty to look at home runs as the ultimate judgment on a center fielder...

Dickerson let him in the door by not doing enough when he had the opportunity before the injury. Dickerson has some upside, but for now you have to see if Stubbs is for real. He killed the leage the last month or so. Let's see if that is the real Stubbs, if not then Dickerson may be the man in center, but Stubbs deserves first look and yes you can use homers as a way to judge any position, even CF.

BLEEDS
03-05-2010, 04:53 PM
I've got all of Spring and half a summer to see if Votto gets moved to LF or has another bout of passion. I'm sorry, but Alonso can only play 1st Base. But, that's what I thought about Jack Cust, as they are identical fielders, yet Oakland stuck him out in Left Field over 100 times. I guess if you want a guy's bat in the lineup, one who can OPS .900, then you stick him out there with a glove and live with the results.

Anchovies!?

Well I fully expect him to play all year in AAA, and be traded at the trade deadline most likely, or at the end of the season for sure.

Anchovies are DEEE-LICIOUS!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

OGB
03-07-2010, 04:39 PM
I think it's time to fish or cut bait with Stubbs. His small MLB sample last year, combined with his advancing age are enough to convince me he doesn't need more time in AAA. The guy was/is a legit prospect, so there's no reason to assume he won't improve on the weaker aspects of his game. I wouldn't count on him being a .390 OBP guy in his first full season, either.
At the end of the day, you do know that you are getting superior defense with a plus arm and a solid baserunner with the potential to steal 50-75 bases. If he OBPs .350 or higher, assume that the Reds odds for making the playoffs are pretty damn good.
All that said, I'm a big Dickerson fan, too, and look forward to seeing what he can do if he stays healthy and gets 400+ ABs between LF and CF. Trying to decide between these two players with Bruce in one corner, Gomes as half a platoon in the other, and Heisey/Frazier/Francisco/Balentien/Dorn waiting in the wings is the kind of problem I wish the Reds had had more of these past 10 years.
As far as Cabrera is concerned, they can always move him to the back end of the lineup if he isn't performing well. I can't recall from all the ABs I've seen him have in the past whether or not he's a good bunter, but I'd wager he is. I remember how in the first few months of last season, if Votto was up with someone on 2nd or 3rd base it almost seemed like a garunteed run. This season I can see a lot of Stubbs getting on base, stealing/being bunted to 2nd or 3rd, and Votto giving the team a first inning lead from the 3 hole.


There's an entire thread on this over in tORG. I think you'll find justification as to why Stubbs is the better option to give 500 AB's in CF this year. I suggest you take a read.
-BLEEDS

You may find this shocking, but many people have no interest in reading a long conversation that they aren't permitted to partake in, thus the necessity to start a similar thread in the Sun Deck. ;)

Redlegs Homer
03-07-2010, 06:12 PM
Look at it this way. We are having a debate on who would be the better lead-off hitter. That means there are multiple quality ones in this organization. The fact that this team has such good youth is very exciting.

gedred69
03-08-2010, 01:08 AM
You may find this shocking, but many people have no interest in reading a long conversation that they aren't permitted to partake in, thus the necessity to start a similar thread in the Sun Deck. ;)[/QUOTE]

AMEN!!!!

TheBigLebowski
03-08-2010, 10:20 AM
How did Dickerson let Stubbs get his foot in the door? Apparently Dickerson purposely injured himself. I thought Dickerson performed well last year, but leave it to Dusty to look at home runs as the ultimate judgment on a center fielder...

He's just throwing the dogs off the scent. We all know it. Speed is really all that matters in evaluating the worth of a center fielder, and Dusty's obviously had the guys race a few times and found that Stubbs is faster. He's not Tavares fast, but he's apparently pretty fast.

UPRedsFan
03-08-2010, 11:58 AM
I have a gut feeling Stubbs will play himself out of a starting job. I just don't think he'll be able to produce offensively yet. I think Dickerson will be the starting CF by end of May.

BLEEDS
03-08-2010, 04:58 PM
I think Stubbs' power is legit and here to stay.

He just went deep in the third inning today - not leading off, but batting with runners on. THIS is why he gets the nod.

He's only "leading off" in the first, the rest of the time he's a legit power threat and if he takes more walks he'll be on base in front of Cabrera and the middle of the lineup.
Oh, and he's light years ahead of Dickerson in CF.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Redlegs Homer
03-08-2010, 07:52 PM
Dusty throws a hand grenade at his center fielder during warm ups. That's how you test REAL speed. Tavares won last year.

Kingspoint
03-11-2010, 07:40 PM
So, if Dickerson keeps playing like this and Stubbs keeps playing like this, do you think Dusty will start the season with Dickerson leading off and playing Center Field?

BLEEDS
03-11-2010, 08:56 PM
So, if Dickerson keeps playing like this and Stubbs keeps playing like this, do you think Dusty will start the season with Dickerson leading off and playing Center Field?

Perhaps, but not likely to happen.

I still think Stubbs starts the season in CF regardless of how good/bad his spring is.

Dickerson better show some pop, speed, and OBP skills, and he MIGHT win 4th OF job and spot starts in LF.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kingspoint
03-11-2010, 09:55 PM
The 2-out RBI Triple today had to help.

BLEEDS
03-11-2010, 10:53 PM
I prefer Stubbs' 2 run HR. :D

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kingspoint
03-12-2010, 07:28 PM
I prefer Stubbs' 2 run HR. :D

PEACE

-BLEEDS

That's probably the way it's always (this year, maybe next) going to be with those two.

I can't see Dickerson in a REDS uniform after 2011. There are just too many better players knocking on the door behind him.

I think this is his last year. If he performs well, and we do what we have to do to get credit for him in October, he might turn out to be a B-Class Free Agent signing and get us a good draft pick the following year when someone else signs him to a deal.

BLEEDS
03-12-2010, 07:58 PM
That's probably the way it's always (this year, maybe next) going to be with those two.

I can't see Dickerson in a REDS uniform after 2011. There are just too many better players knocking on the door behind him.

I think this is his last year. If he performs well, and we do what we have to do to get credit for him in October, he might turn out to be a B-Class Free Agent signing and get us a good draft pick the following year when someone else signs him to a deal.

Well finally we agree on something! ;)

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kingspoint
03-12-2010, 09:19 PM
Well finally we agree on something! ;)

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I noticed that I wrote 2011, but I meant 2010. I think this is his last year as a RED.

BLEEDS
03-13-2010, 06:45 PM
I noticed that I wrote 2011, but I meant 2010. I think this is his last year as a RED.

Okay, then I retract. We haven't agreed on anything ever, yet.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kingspoint
03-16-2010, 01:28 AM
I prefer Stubbs' 2 run HR. :D

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I prefer Dickerson's 4 for 4 day with a Double AND a 2-run-HR along with his 1.173 OPS right now.

I've never changed how I've felt about Dickerson. I didn't notice him until a lot later than many here, but I did take notice when "the light went on for him". Since that light went on for him, it has yet to turn off. He's not the player who put up the minor league numbers that he did. He's a completely different player since the last week of May, 2008. Some of that coincided with his age (he was 26 and 27 the last two seasons, and is set to have his "career year" when he turns 28 April 10th). I'll be shocked if he doesn't put up better numbers than any outfielder we have, except possibly Gomes. But, Dickerson's defense will make him a lot more valuable than Gomes as the REDS have more flyball pitchers than groundball pitchers.

Here are the first two posts I ever commented about him:

6-04-2008, 01:10 AM
Re: Freel strains hamstring

You know what you're going to get with Patterson.

I'd give Dickerson a shot. You don't "know" what you're going to get.

I've seen too many 100's of times, literally 100's of times that players outperformed for a short while the first year called up what they were projected to do.

The only way to find out is to give him a try.

Nobody can be as bad Offensively than Patterson.

06-04-2008, 02:13 AM

What's really interesting is that since Corey Patterson arrived down in Louisville, a Monster has woken up in Chris Dickerson.

Since May 29th (6 games), Dickerson's started 4 of them (Patterson's started in 5 straight since May 30th). He's had 20 PA's, and is hitting .438/.526/.875/1.401OPS..., Bruce-like numbers. In that same time period, Patterson's been picked off, caught stealing, and had 23 PA's while hitting .409/.435/.500/.935OPS...closer to the numbers Dickerson had last season while at Louisville when the then 25-year-old Dickerson had an OBP of .361 and a SLG of .435 in over 410 PA's. His strength isn't power, but again, if he's only up in the Majors for a month, he can't be as bad as Patterson was during April and May. He's hot right now, so why not try? Hairston wasn't supposed to do this well, either.

06-04-2008, 01:50 PM

He's "only" 26 years old and had a .361 OBP during a full season at AAA last year. He's lit it up the last week with an OPS of 1.400+. His OPS last year was a respectable .800 at AAA.

Baker's Manlove for Patterson is stunting Dickerson's growth.

BLEEDS
03-16-2010, 11:51 AM
I prefer Dickerson's 4 for 4 day with a Double AND a 2-run-HR along with his 1.173 OPS right now.

I've never changed how I've felt about Dickerson. I didn't notice him until a lot later than many here, but I did take notice when "the light went on for him". Since that light went on for him, it has yet to turn off. He's not the player who put up the minor league numbers that he did. He's a completely different player since the last week of May, 2008. Some of that coincided with his age (he was 26 and 27 the last two seasons, and is set to have his "career year" when he turns 28 April 10th). I'll be shocked if he doesn't put up better numbers than any outfielder we have, except possibly Gomes. But, Dickerson's defense will make him a lot more valuable than Gomes as the REDS have more flyball pitchers than groundball pitchers.

Here are the first two posts I ever commented about him:

6-04-2008, 01:10 AM
Re: Freel strains hamstring

You know what you're going to get with Patterson.

I'd give Dickerson a shot. You don't "know" what you're going to get.

I've seen too many 100's of times, literally 100's of times that players outperformed for a short while the first year called up what they were projected to do.

The only way to find out is to give him a try.

Nobody can be as bad Offensively than Patterson.

06-04-2008, 02:13 AM

What's really interesting is that since Corey Patterson arrived down in Louisville, a Monster has woken up in Chris Dickerson.

Since May 29th (6 games), Dickerson's started 4 of them (Patterson's started in 5 straight since May 30th). He's had 20 PA's, and is hitting .438/.526/.875/1.401OPS..., Bruce-like numbers. In that same time period, Patterson's been picked off, caught stealing, and had 23 PA's while hitting .409/.435/.500/.935OPS...closer to the numbers Dickerson had last season while at Louisville when the then 25-year-old Dickerson had an OBP of .361 and a SLG of .435 in over 410 PA's. His strength isn't power, but again, if he's only up in the Majors for a month, he can't be as bad as Patterson was during April and May. He's hot right now, so why not try? Hairston wasn't supposed to do this well, either.

06-04-2008, 01:50 PM

He's "only" 26 years old and had a .361 OBP during a full season at AAA last year. He's lit it up the last week with an OPS of 1.400+. His OPS last year was a respectable .800 at AAA.

Baker's Manlove for Patterson is stunting Dickerson's growth.

Maybe you should look at his numbers/starts/positions last year.
As was argued over in tORG, he never "lost" his starting job due to Taveras. He started in LF, and slumped his way out of it.
He did manage to pull himself out of it and end up with a decent numbers but he lost his CF job.

He's going to have to win the LF job. CF is Drew Stubbs' - no matter how they both hit in ST. That's just the stark reality.

Even you said he doesn't have a job here after 2011 (I say 2010). Too many people nipping at his heels, and Stubbs' bat/defense combo in CF is already ahead of Dickerson's, and his bat is only going to get better.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kingspoint
03-16-2010, 08:31 PM
Maybe you should look at his numbers/starts/positions last year.
As was argued over in tORG, he never "lost" his starting job due to Taveras. He started in LF, and slumped his way out of it.
He did manage to pull himself out of it and end up with a decent numbers but he lost his CF job.

He's going to have to win the LF job. CF is Drew Stubbs' - no matter how they both hit in ST. That's just the stark reality.

Even you said he doesn't have a job here after 2011 (I say 2010). Too many people nipping at his heels, and Stubbs' bat/defense combo in CF is already ahead of Dickerson's, and his bat is only going to get better.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

All that's true. And, I do believe, like you, that this is his last year here, even if he finishes the year with an .850+ OPS with outstanding Defensive play. We could get a lot for him selling high at the end of the year.

Our Outfielders (except Stubbs) and our Catchers are smashing the ball so far in Spring Training.