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will5979
03-01-2010, 10:48 AM
Bored this morning and got ot thinking of a few...I was born in 79 and been a fan since 85. So obviously I'll list the ones from my lifetime along with the others that I know about...but first I'll start with 3 I experienced in my lifetime.

1. Deion Sanders for Mark Portugal and Dave Burba...why did I list this one at number 1? Because I honestly believe that this dumb trade cost the Reds the 1995 World Series. Deion was a stellar baserunner and with Barry Larkin hitting behind him all needed to do was draw 1 walk a piece in games 1-2 of the NLCS. After stealing 2nd Larkin either sacs him over to third for GAnt to sac fly in, or drives him in with a basehit. 1 more run was all the Reds needed in games 1-2 to beat Atlanta, could have changed the whole complextion of the series.

2. Mike Cameron, Brett Tomko and 2 other insignificant players for Jr. Griff-don't get me wrong I did hop on that Griffey bandwagon and even called my Dad in Feb. 2000 to tell him I was already making plans for us to be in Cincy that October. The payroll Griffey tied up while not performing was astronomical.

3. Paul O'Neill for Roberto Kelly-had the Reds won the 95 Series I would not have listed this because that is how we got Deion. We all know how O'Neill's career panned out! And yes I know the chain of events was set in motion to get Casey with this trade, but does that really matter?

Now 2 others not from my lifetime...

4. The Frank Robinson trade-obviously!
5. The Tony Perez trade.

BoldOD
03-01-2010, 10:57 AM
Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas was so egregious all others pale in comparison.

As for what I would term a 'Team Killing Trade' Perez getting dealt for Woody Fryman, etc is front and center.

brm7675
03-01-2010, 03:21 PM
Really? Deion was an average player on his best day. Trading for him was horrible, and his time on the team offered us nothing. The trade of O'Neill was far worse and it's not the worse. See deals involving Tony Perez, Frank Robinson, Adam Dunn, Austin kearns and such as far worse then anything involviing Meion Sanders.

JayBruceFan
03-01-2010, 03:55 PM
1)Frank Robinson/Milt Pappas
2)Paul O'Neil/Roberto Kelly
3)Ken Griffey Jr/Mike Cameron
4)Aaron Boone/Yankees (2003. Left the team without a competent 3B until 2005 when Joe Randa was signed)
5)Reds/Nationals (2006)
6)Adam Dunn/Diamondbacks (Basically got nothing in return)

will5979
03-01-2010, 04:18 PM
Forgot about the Adam Dunn trade...yes we are still feeling the effects of it as well, no proven LFer.

bounty37h
03-01-2010, 04:57 PM
1)Frank Robinson/Milt Pappas
2)Paul O'Neil/Roberto Kelly
3)Ken Griffey Jr/Mike Cameron
4)Aaron Boone/Yankees (2003. Left the team without a competent 3B until 2005 when Joe Randa was signed)
5)Reds/Nationals (2006)
6)Adam Dunn/Diamondbacks (Basically got nothing in return)

Really?, seems about as big a wash of a trade I can picture, no one involved amounted to jack.

graveyard
03-01-2010, 04:57 PM
Worst part about perez trade was the collapse of the whole pitching staff. alcaca and zachary and nolan. Actually fryman had just started pitching good (had won 3 in a row) and got mad and quit. Never could get why, I think sparky was going to move him to the bullpen. He was my neighbor but never got enough nerve to ask him that. He did give us his family seats for a game (One of those three wins in a row) And I got to set with Mrs. Griffey and her two sons.

Newman4
03-01-2010, 05:21 PM
I'm not sure about the Griffey trade being one of the worst. Yes, he was often injured, but still produced .886 OPS from 2000-2007. In fact, he OPS .904 while Cameron was OPSing .797 in Seattle and Brett Tomko was sporting an ERA of 4.82 while only appearing in 43 games in two years. Maybe the Griffey contract was a problem later, but the actual trade wasn't bad.

Griffey012
03-01-2010, 05:25 PM
Really?, seems about as big a wash of a trade I can picture, no one involved amounted to jack.

I agree, I actually think it turned out to be a great trade for us, simply because we got rid of 2 players, Lopez and Kearns who were simply a mirage of a starting SS and RF'er. Just look what they have done since, Kearns is all but out of baseball and FeLo could only scrounge up 1 mil + incentives after a good offensive season. The 2006 Reds team would have been one of the worst teams ever to reach the playoffs. Even if it didn't end up helping that season like it was supposed to, it jump started the re-building process.

It gets me thinking about the Indiana Pacers the past few seasons, the franchise has been set back many years due to believing in the mirage of quality talent that really isnt quality talent, and a mirage of a franchise player that really isnt. The best thing for the Pacers would have been to scrap everything and start over, but they held on instead thinking they could slide into the playoffs with a team that had Zero shot at a championship. The Birdman seems to think every year they are 1 role player away from a playoff team, but who cares if you are in the NBA playoffs if you have no remote chance of sniffing a title. They are still nowhere closer to a championship team than they were 4 years ago. However we are much closer to a championship than we were in 06 because we scrapped the failed project and restarted with a better plan, dropping FeLo and Kearns was part of the original failed project.

1990REDS
03-01-2010, 06:44 PM
Cant really blame the reds for the griffey trade. Every team in MLB would have made that trade that year. They were a small market team that went after arguably the best player in baseball at the time. He got hurt, it didnt work out like everyone thought. Just a bad brake for both griffey and the reds.

will5979
03-01-2010, 07:08 PM
Cant really blame the reds for the griffey trade. Every team in MLB would have made that trade that year. They were a small market team that went after arguably the best player in baseball at the time. He got hurt, it didnt work out like everyone thought. Just a bad brake for both griffey and the reds.

Agreed and I would have made the trade as well...HOWEVER I would not have gone as far to sign him for 9 years with an option for the 10th.

5 would have been very reasonable...but granted it still would not have worked out except for 2000. Arguable 2005-2007 were Griffey's best consistant years with the Reds.

Donder
03-01-2010, 07:25 PM
If I can play the "in retrospect" card, Christy Mathewson for Amos Rusie (who pitched three games for the Reds) has to be the number one or number two worst trade along with Robinson.

I have a hard time getting worked up about any of the trades mentioned that have occurred in my lifetime (since '81). Deion was an intriguing player that I loved watching, but he didn't get on base enough to make him an elite lead off hitter. Besides Burba and Portugal were solid members of the rotation. As others have mentioned the Nationals trade doesn't look so bad when looking at Kearns, Lopez, and Wagner today. Dunn was going to leave as a free agent after the season anyway, so they about had to get whatever they could for him. The O'Neill trade in my book was the worst of the past 30 years. There was some bad blood between O'Neill and the front office that precipitated that trade, right?

HalMorrisRules
03-01-2010, 09:25 PM
If I can play the "in retrospect" card, Christy Mathewson for Amos Rusie (who pitched three games for the Reds) has to be the number one or number two worst trade along with Robinson.

The Robinson trade was an absolute disaster but the Reds at least got ten extremely productive seasons from him before he was traded. The Reds got nothing out of Mathewson before he was traded and that makes that trade much, much worse than the Robinson trade.

An interesting thing happened with Mathewson 16 years later. The Giants traded him back to the Reds for Buck Herzog and Red Killefer. Neither Buck or Red did much for the Giants but one of the players traded to the Reds along with Mathewson was Edd Roush. Roush arguably is one of the greatest Reds of all time. So it kind of evened out in the end somewhat.

Griffey012
03-01-2010, 10:12 PM
Agreed and I would have made the trade as well...HOWEVER I would not have gone as far to sign him for 9 years with an option for the 10th.

5 would have been very reasonable...but granted it still would not have worked out except for 2000. Arguable 2005-2007 were Griffey's best consistant years with the Reds.

The Reds as a team were so sad for almost the entire Griffey era that watching a hobbled and aged Griffey was the best thing about going to the games. I wish I could erase a majority those years from my memory.

As far as the contract, it was a steal for a player of Griffey's caliber. We were getting him for about 9-12 million when he would have commanded 20 million in the FA market. His contract was not hampering us as much as people like to make it sound, we just had no inflow of young talent coming up to the team until his last season (Bruce and Votto). I can only imagine what else they would have spent it on, another Milton and some aging veteran most likely.

Newman4
03-01-2010, 10:24 PM
1. Deion Sanders for Mark Portugal and Dave Burba...why did I list this one at number 1? Because I honestly believe that this dumb trade cost the Reds the 1995 World Series. Deion was a stellar baserunner and with Barry Larkin hitting behind him all needed to do was draw 1 walk a piece in games 1-2 of the NLCS. After stealing 2nd Larkin either sacs him over to third for GAnt to sac fly in, or drives him in with a basehit. 1 more run was all the Reds needed in games 1-2 to beat Atlanta, could have changed the whole complextion of the series.

Will, no offense, but after doing some research, I have to seriously disagree with this one. Deion was having a horrible season with the Reds. Hitting .240 with an OBP of .296 and OPS of .621. Now, with a change of scenery he did end up OPSing .790 in SF. But, the rest of the guys never amounted to much other than journeyman Scott Service who was released after an ERA of 3.19 and resigned by Cincinnati the next year. On the other hand, Burba went 6-2 with a 3.27 ERA the rest of the way and a 3.83 ERA the next year for the Reds. Portugal pitched with an ERA under 4 for his time with the Reds as well. Darren Lewis was nothing special, but they picked up two solid starters and a fill in CFer for Deion who was having a bad year and a collection of guys that didn't do much. I think this trade should be on the BEST list, not the worst.

markymark69
03-01-2010, 10:28 PM
Perez trade -- No. 1 for me. Robinson trade up there also -- although that was before my time. O'Neill for Kelly also right there.

Two others that I did not see anyone put. George Foster for Alex Trevino and Jim Kern and Tom Seaver for Charlie Puleo. Very bad.

goreds2
03-01-2010, 10:33 PM
Of course, the Frank Robinson and Tony Perez trades. They should have traded Dan Driessen instead of Ray Knight following the 1981 season. Bench would have been better suited for 1st base.

" In 1981, Knight batted .259 with six home runs and 34 RBIs. Following the season, he was traded to the Houston Astros for Cesar Cedeno to accommodate Johnny Bench's move from behind the plate to third. "

vottofan4life
03-01-2010, 10:42 PM
Does anybody know how much money is gonna be freed up after this 2010 season?

Revering4Blue
03-01-2010, 10:47 PM
There are some really good,err, bad ones mentioned in this thread.


http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71261&page=2

Orodle
03-01-2010, 10:58 PM
I agree with all except #1. Really? Burba and Portugal both at times could have been our ace.


Bored this morning and got ot thinking of a few...I was born in 79 and been a fan since 85. So obviously I'll list the ones from my lifetime along with the others that I know about...but first I'll start with 3 I experienced in my lifetime.

1. Deion Sanders for Mark Portugal and Dave Burba...why did I list this one at number 1? Because I honestly believe that this dumb trade cost the Reds the 1995 World Series. Deion was a stellar baserunner and with Barry Larkin hitting behind him all needed to do was draw 1 walk a piece in games 1-2 of the NLCS. After stealing 2nd Larkin either sacs him over to third for GAnt to sac fly in, or drives him in with a basehit. 1 more run was all the Reds needed in games 1-2 to beat Atlanta, could have changed the whole complextion of the series.

2. Mike Cameron, Brett Tomko and 2 other insignificant players for Jr. Griff-don't get me wrong I did hop on that Griffey bandwagon and even called my Dad in Feb. 2000 to tell him I was already making plans for us to be in Cincy that October. The payroll Griffey tied up while not performing was astronomical.

3. Paul O'Neill for Roberto Kelly-had the Reds won the 95 Series I would not have listed this because that is how we got Deion. We all know how O'Neill's career panned out! And yes I know the chain of events was set in motion to get Casey with this trade, but does that really matter?

Now 2 others not from my lifetime...

4. The Frank Robinson trade-obviously!
5. The Tony Perez trade.

HalMorrisRules
03-01-2010, 11:57 PM
BJ Ryan for Juan Guzman turned out very terribly. Much worse than the Deion trade. Dave Burba was a steady starter for the team beyond just the 1995 season. Guzman was gone after 1999 and Ryan has been an all-star twice since then.

double21d
03-02-2010, 06:38 AM
Definitely the 2006 trade with the Nationals. That crippled the Reds down the stretch.
Also, the trade of Sean Casey to the Pirates for Dave Williams. The guy didn't even make it through the season with the Reds.

gilpdawg
03-02-2010, 06:46 AM
BJ Ryan for Juan Guzman turned out very terribly. Much worse than the Deion trade. Dave Burba was a steady starter for the team beyond just the 1995 season. Guzman was gone after 1999 and Ryan has been an all-star twice since then.
Guzman was very solid down the stretch that season with an ERA+ of 155. May not have made it to that one game playoff without that trade. Had to take a shot with that one. Besides, guys like Ryan are dime a dozen when your team sucks, like the Reds did those years after the trade. You don't really need a closer if you can't win anyway.

flash
03-02-2010, 10:02 AM
here we go with the Robinson trade again. The main reason for the reds collaspe in 1966 was not the absence of Robinson it was the horrific pitching. Consider Sammy Ellis went from 22-10 with a 3.79 ERA to 10-19 with a 5.29 ERA Joe Nuxhall went from 11-4 3.45 ERA to 6-8 with a 4.50 ERA. But Pappas gets the blame. Oh, and Derron Johnson BA dropped 30 points and his RBI total dropped 43.

Pappas was one of the best pitchers in the AL at the time. He was the AL's starting pitcher for the 1965 all-star game. He won 210 games in his career. 95th on the all time list ahead of names like Drysadale, Koufax, Dean and others.

Now I know Nuxhall and Pappas didn't get along. They hated each other. Pappas soon hated the Reds as did Fryman. But to keep beating him up 40 years later is really unnecessary. The main reason Robinson succeded in the AL was that the American league was a disaster at the time. Other than the Twins the whole league was more like a minor league at the time.

HalMorrisRules
03-02-2010, 01:15 PM
Definitely the 2006 trade with the Nationals. That crippled the Reds down the stretch.
Also, the trade of Sean Casey to the Pirates for Dave Williams. The guy didn't even make it through the season with the Reds.

That was a salary dump, not an attempt to get something back of equal talent.

HalMorrisRules
03-02-2010, 01:16 PM
Guzman was very solid down the stretch that season with an ERA+ of 155. May not have made it to that one game playoff without that trade. Had to take a shot with that one. Besides, guys like Ryan are dime a dozen when your team sucks, like the Reds did those years after the trade. You don't really need a closer if you can't win anyway.

I made no comment on Guzman's performance, just pointed out that for 2 months of service the Reds missed out on a very solid decade of performance from Ryan. And besides, relievers are a dime a dozen, not closers. Why did we have to pay so much for Cordero if they are a dime a dozen? Closers dont come along that very often.

TheBigLebowski
03-02-2010, 04:27 PM
Willy Tavares for Aaron Miles. Proven speed for a really slow player. Never made any sense to me.

After that, I'd have to go with The Trade. I know many will argue that none of the players really did much after The Trade, but that is not a sound argument to me. There's a reason there was such an uproad around here - we traded away 2 guys who were, AT THAT TIME, two of best young players in the NL - FeLo having already made an ASG. We threw in our 1st round pick from 2 years ago for Billy Bray (the only piece that was ever of any use to us and he sure hasn't helped much), freaking Royce Clayton and an injured Gary Majewski who was never that good healthy.

Unless you want to make the argument that the big play here was go get Daryl Thompson, I don't see how you can't at least view this trade as a failure, if not an unmitigated disaster.

flash
03-02-2010, 04:39 PM
I have often felt that the only problem with the Robinson trade was that the Robinson trade was that the Reds didn't get Mcnally or Palmer instead of Pappas. think the O's would have gone for it. Neither was a star at the time Palmer was coming off a rookie 5-4 campaign.

bgwilly31
03-02-2010, 04:47 PM
Depending on how and if Volquez ever returns. i would venture to argue the Josh Hamilton trade would need to be on the list.

Imagine this lineup this year if we still had him.

1.) OC
2.) BP
3.) Votto
4.) Hamilton
5.) Rolen
6.) Bruce
7.) Gomes
8.) Hernandez

I would be stoked. Oh and BTW we would still have the same Rotation as we do now for opening day.

brm7675
03-02-2010, 05:12 PM
Proven speed? What speed? When did Willy get on base? We traded one horrible player for a bad player. the key being is the bad player won't take up playing time for the young good player like the really bad Willy did and would do in the future, this was a great trade.


Willy Tavares for Aaron Miles. Proven speed for a really slow player. Never made any sense to me.

After that, I'd have to go with The Trade. I know many will argue that none of the players really did much after The Trade, but that is not a sound argument to me. There's a reason there was such an uproad around here - we traded away 2 guys who were, AT THAT TIME, two of best young players in the NL - FeLo having already made an ASG. We threw in our 1st round pick from 2 years ago for Billy Bray (the only piece that was ever of any use to us and he sure hasn't helped much), freaking Royce Clayton and an injured Gary Majewski who was never that good healthy.

Unless you want to make the argument that the big play here was go get Daryl Thompson, I don't see how you can't at least view this trade as a failure, if not an unmitigated disaster.

brm7675
03-02-2010, 05:25 PM
Hamilton can't stay healthy, he has had 1 great half season since going to Texas, right now it is a wash for both teams.


Depending on how and if Volquez ever returns. i would venture to argue the Josh Hamilton trade would need to be on the list.

Imagine this lineup this year if we still had him.

1.) OC
2.) BP
3.) Votto
4.) Hamilton
5.) Rolen
6.) Bruce
7.) Gomes
8.) Hernandez

I would be stoked. Oh and BTW we would still have the same Rotation as we do now for opening day.

1990REDS
03-02-2010, 05:55 PM
Proven speed? What speed? When did Willy get on base? We traded one horrible player for a bad player. the key being is the bad player won't take up playing time for the young good player like the really bad Willy did and would do in the future, this was a great trade.

I agree, All willy did last year was take up a roster spot and fail to get on base. One of the few leadoff hitters who would routinily have 3 and 4 pitch at bats. If your not gonna get on base and produce runs at least work a pitch count!

Griffey012
03-02-2010, 06:16 PM
Proven speed? What speed? When did Willy get on base? We traded one horrible player for a bad player. the key being is the bad player won't take up playing time for the young good player like the really bad Willy did and would do in the future, this was a great trade.

He was making the comment as a joke. I am pretty sure.

gedred69
03-02-2010, 08:43 PM
1) Perez- Fryman. It may well have given away a 3rd straight WS.
2) Robinson "an old 30" for - Pappas.
3) Tie, between O'Neil-Kelley, and sigh, the Jr. trade.

The rest are a jumble of bad decisions to a lesser degree. There are probably others old enough nobody living can remember.

Brisco
03-02-2010, 09:02 PM
I dont know if its top five material, but the John Wetteland trade (+Bill Risley) for Willie Greene and Dave Martinez always bothered me a lot.

double21d
03-03-2010, 06:41 AM
I wouldn't want Hamilton. I don't trust him...sad to say, but true...any you have to worry about those things when millions of dollars are invested. Also, the guy gets injured every other day. Of course it is hard to argue that with Volquez out, but I don't see it becoming a pattern with him.

gilpdawg
03-03-2010, 08:34 AM
Proven speed? What speed? When did Willy get on base? We traded one horrible player for a bad player. the key being is the bad player won't take up playing time for the young good player like the really bad Willy did and would do in the future, this was a great trade.
I think your sarcasm detector is broken.

gilpdawg
03-03-2010, 08:35 AM
I made no comment on Guzman's performance, just pointed out that for 2 months of service the Reds missed out on a very solid decade of performance from Ryan. And besides, relievers are a dime a dozen, not closers. Why did we have to pay so much for Cordero if they are a dime a dozen? Closers dont come along that very often.
It was still worth it, because it helped us get to the cusp of the playoffs. Gotta take that shot.

And FWIW, I'm not a fan of giving closers big money.

bgwilly31
03-03-2010, 01:57 PM
I wouldn't want Hamilton. I don't trust him...sad to say, but true...any you have to worry about those things when millions of dollars are invested. Also, the guy gets injured every other day. Of course it is hard to argue that with Volquez out, but I don't see it becoming a pattern with him.

Volquez may never be a starter for the reds again. So i dont see how you can argue how you dont see a pattern. And hamilton will play more than half the season this year at least. Volquez however wont play at all this year.

bgwilly31
03-03-2010, 01:59 PM
Oh and just one more thing.

Having Josh hamilton as a red and in the All Star game. And putting on one of the most epic HRD's of all time in a reds uniform. Would have been the best thing the reds have done in 20 yrs. On that aspect alone i think we lost on the trade.

RedsATOfreak
03-03-2010, 08:45 PM
not being alive during some of the trades.... the o'neill trade has by far been the worst in the last 20 years

Griffey012
03-03-2010, 11:02 PM
Volquez may never be a starter for the reds again. So i dont see how you can argue how you dont see a pattern. And hamilton will play more than half the season this year at least. Volquez however wont play at all this year.

There is no reason to begin to even consider that Volquez may not be a started for the Reds again. Tommy John surgery has basically turned into a requirement that every young pitcher has at some point. Recovery is pretty much a given nowadays.

TheBigLebowski
03-04-2010, 10:32 AM
I agree, All willy did last year was take up a roster spot and fail to get on base. One of the few leadoff hitters who would routinily have 3 and 4 pitch at bats. If your not gonna get on base and produce runs at least work a pitch count!

Matters not how many pitches you see. It matters how quickly you run to first, regardless of whether or not you're safe.

redsfanmia
03-04-2010, 09:02 PM
not being alive during some of the trades.... the o'neill trade has by far been the worst in the last 20 years

The O'Neill trade was not that bad, the Reds wanted PO to be a power hitter. He would have hit 30 hrs and had an average of .245 had he stayed with the Reds. The Yankees let him be what he was, he would have never done with the Reds what he did for the Yankees.