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View Full Version : how much better are "WE" than 5 years ago?



GADawg
03-04-2010, 11:14 PM
Ramon Hernandez---Jason Larue

Joey Votto---Sean Casey

Brandon Phillips---D'Angelo Jimenez

Scott Rolen---Joe Randa/Rich Aurilia

O Cabrera---Felipe Lopez

Gomes---Dunn

Stubbs/Dickerson---Junior

Bruce---Ears

Harang, Arroyo, Cueto, Bailey, Other....Claussen, Harang, Luke Hudson, Eric Milton, Ramon Ortiz

Cordero, Massett, Burton, Rhodes---Graves, Weathers, Coffey, Mercker

Miles, Wlad/Nix, Hanigan---Freel, Jacob Cruz, Javy

OnBaseMachine
03-04-2010, 11:47 PM
A lot better, IMO.

C - LaRue over Hernandez.

1B - Votto over Casey

2B - Phillips over Jimenez

SS - Lopez over Cabrera offensively at least

3B - Rolen over Randa

LF - Dunn

CF - Griffey was a lot better offensively but Stubbs/Dickerson are a lot better defensively

RF - Bruce

The starting pitching is a drastic improvement over 2005. Claussen was decent in 2005 but nothing special. Ortiz, Milton, and Hudson wouldn't even crack the Reds rotation now, let alone be the No. 2 or 3 starter like they were five years ago.

2010 bullpen over the 2005 bullpen.

This team is a lot better than five years ago if you ask me. The 2005 team could hit and that's about all they could do. This team has much better pitching and defense.

bucksfan2
03-05-2010, 08:35 AM
Hernandez > LaRue
LaRue was morphing into one of the worst every day players in baseball. IIRC he hovered around the .200 mark for alot of this season. Hernandez may not be the best offensive catcher but he was much better than LaRue

Votto > Casey
5 years ago Casey was in a declining stage of his career. The Mayor was beloved in Cincy but his game was in disarray.

Phillips > Jimenez
I really don't think there is much of a debate here.

Lopez > Cabrera
Lopez had a monster offensive year in 05. Silver Slugger and an All Stat SS. His defense was erratic but he was great in the 1 or 2 hole all season long.

Rolen > Randa
Randa was a nice story, opening day walk off, but not the player Rolen is.

Dunn >
Not much of a comparison here. Dunn was a good offensive player.

Griffey > Stubbs
Giving the nod to Griffey. His defense was that of a corner OF and CF defense can make a big difference, especially when you have Dunn in LF. But he did have one of his better offensive seasons while playing 120+ games.

Bruce > Kearns
Kearns was bad, plain and simple.

2010 SP > 2005 SP
Not even a question

2010 BP > 2005 BP
IIRC the 2005 BP was one of the worst I have ever seen.

OnBaseMachine
03-05-2010, 09:57 AM
Hernandez > LaRue
LaRue was morphing into one of the worst every day players in baseball. IIRC he hovered around the .200 mark for alot of this season. Hernandez may not be the best offensive catcher but he was much better than LaRue


LaRue hit .260/.355/.452 - .807 OPS with a 110 OPS+ in 2005. He fell off the cliff the following year but but he was one of the better catchers in the league in 2005. LaRue had a solid little career with the Reds, IMO.

RedsManRick
03-05-2010, 10:00 AM
And here I thought "WE" was going to be a introspective take on RedsZone...

George Anderson
03-05-2010, 10:19 AM
And here I thought "WE" was going to be a introspective take on RedsZone...

Jack Billingham years ago asked Marty Brennamen who "WE" was when Marty refered to the Reds with that word. Marty stopped using "WE" in that manner from that day forward.

bucksfan2
03-05-2010, 10:35 AM
Jack Billingham years ago asked Marty Brennamen who "WE" was when Marty refered to the Reds with that word. Marty stopped using "WE" in that manner from that day forward.

Yea I hate using that word as well. I don't play for the team and I don't work for the team. I think I used "We" when I was at OSU, but thats about it.

Oh yea in the olympics and when I am rooting for the USA I use "we" because I am USA.

reds1869
03-05-2010, 11:12 AM
Yea I hate using that word as well. I don't play for the team and I don't work for the team. I think I used "We" when I was at OSU, but thats about it.

Oh yea in the olympics and when I am rooting for the USA I use "we" because I am USA.

I also dislike the term "we" when referring to a professional club. I don't mind it at all when referring to the college one attended or the olympic team. IMO, the use of "we" is justified in both cases.

TRF
03-05-2010, 11:21 AM
Ah Casey, GREAT hitter in a failing body. A healthy Casey would have been a perrenial .900+ OPS bat. Man was 2009 a horrible offense. Only 2 players with more tha 50 AB's had an OPS over .800.

You can say all you want about how much better 2010 might be, but 2009 to 2005? I'd take the 2005 offense ten times out of ten.

SirFelixCat
03-05-2010, 11:28 AM
I also dislike the term "we" when referring to a professional club. I don't mind it at all when referring to the college one attended or the olympic team. IMO, the use of "we" is justified in both cases.

Sorry, but as much time, money, love and heartache that I've invested over the years in this team, I deserve the right to use the term "we".

Tom Servo
03-05-2010, 11:37 AM
Sorry, but as much time, money, love and heartache that I've invested over the years in this team, I deserve the right to use the term "we".
Exactly. The players come and go, "we" remain right here.

Spring~Fields
03-05-2010, 11:52 AM
Ramon Hernandez---Jason Larue

Joey Votto---Sean Casey

Brandon Phillips---D'Angelo Jimenez

Scott Rolen---Joe Randa/Rich Aurilia

O Cabrera---Felipe Lopez

Gomes---Dunn

Stubbs/Dickerson---Junior

Bruce---Ears

Harang, Arroyo, Cueto, Bailey, Other....Claussen, Harang, Luke Hudson, Eric Milton, Ramon Ortiz

Cordero, Massett, Burton, Rhodes---Graves, Weathers, Coffey, Mercker

Miles, Wlad/Nix, Hanigan---Freel, Jacob Cruz, Javy


how much better are "WE" than 5 years ago?



CENTRAL
W L PCT GB RS RA DIFF
Cincinnati 73 89 .454 27 820 889 -69 2005
Cincinnati 78 84 .481 13 673 723 -50 2009


The 2010 season for Cincinnati has yet to be played on the field, one game at a time.

Have the Reds improved over previous Reds teams of five years ago? I think the answer to that question depends on how much they have improved against the competition in St. Louis, Chicago, Milwaukee, and Houston in 2010.

It is one thing to be better than past Reds teams that were bad, it is another thing to have gained ground and to have improved against the primary competition within their division, 2010 remains to be seen. If the Reds maintain a negative run differential and stay within a range of 13-27 games behind in the Central, can we say that they are significantly better?

The pitching and defense has the appearances of being better for the Reds, how about the Reds offense, and the competitions pitching, defense and offense? Are the 2010 Reds better?

Strikes Out Looking
03-05-2010, 04:24 PM
I agree with most of what has been posted above, but the big difference between 2005 and 2010 (outside of much better pitching) is much, much better defense.

Todays OF is, in my opinion, a bit better defensively than 2005's. Especially when its CDick, Stubbs and Bruce in the OF.
Todays IF is much better than 2010.

If this team can score 50 more runs than last year, there is no reason the run differential shouldn't be positive.

GADawg
03-05-2010, 10:11 PM
Jack Billingham years ago asked Marty Brennamen who "WE" was when Marty refered to the Reds with that word. Marty stopped using "WE" in that manner from that day forward.

exactly why I used the quotation marks

Blitz Dorsey
03-05-2010, 10:29 PM
The difference is quite staggering. I really think WE have a chance this year and I haven't been more excited for the start of a season since 2000.

jmcclain19
03-06-2010, 06:49 PM
"We" = Shower with the team.

Fans however, pay for seats in the stands. Two seperate groups.

The Reds are definitely better off than 5 years ago. And "We" - the Reds fan base here at Redszone.com - are also better off.

GAC
03-07-2010, 04:46 AM
Sorry, but as much time, money, love and heartache that I've invested over the years in this team, I deserve the right to use the term "we".

Exactly. So if someone asks me whose MY team I can't say the Reds because of word semantics?

Being a fan is all about guilt by association. :p:

I'm very, very optimistic about this year's team though. There has been some improvement. Especially in the pitching department. Still have some uncertainty at catching, as well as this offense (overall).

Still wish we had Dunn.

reds44
03-07-2010, 05:00 AM
"We" = Shower with the team.

Fans however, pay for seats in the stands. Two seperate groups.

The Reds are definitely better off than 5 years ago. And "We" - the Reds fan base here at Redszone.com - are also better off.
I'd rather not refer to anything as = shower with the team. Just, no.

Razor Shines
03-07-2010, 05:52 AM
"We" = Shower with the team.

Fans however, pay for seats in the stands. Two seperate groups.

The Reds are definitely better off than 5 years ago. And "We" - the Reds fan base here at Redszone.com - are also better off.

:laugh:

mth123
03-07-2010, 08:01 AM
We're on a Reds message board.

If I or anyone else want to type the two letter word WE instead of typing out the Cincinnati Reds, The Reds, the Team, Cincy or anything else I'd bet everyone still knows what is meant.

If its so objectionable than lets stop using LOL, IMO, IIRC and other shortcuts.

Joseph
03-07-2010, 09:08 AM
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together....

Or something like that.

This team is seemingly better than 5 years ago. But I remember a team 5 years ago that had quite a few young players we thought were about to bust out. FeLo, EE [remember a bunch of angry people over the Randa signing?], Kearns was about to get healthy, LaRue was a solid 'young' catcher....Dunn was going to cut down his K's and this team was finally ready to pitch. In 2005 we were likely every bit as optimistic as we are going into 2010. Thats baseball.

We will see how plays out.

mth123
03-07-2010, 09:26 AM
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together....

Or something like that.

This team is seemingly better than 5 years ago. But I remember a team 5 years ago that had quite a few young players we thought were about to bust out. FeLo, EE [remember a bunch of angry people over the Randa signing?], Kearns was about to get healthy, LaRue was a solid 'young' catcher....Dunn was going to cut down his K's and this team was finally ready to pitch. In 2005 we were likely every bit as optimistic as we are going into 2010. Thats baseball.

We will see how plays out.

I don't think we were as optimistic about the pitching. Forgetting the vets Arroyo, Harang, Wells and Lehr, the team is still about a dozen deep in legit starter candidates over the next 5 years (though most are #4 or 5 types)

1. Bailey
2. Chapman
3. Volquez
4. Cueto
5. Leake
6. Wood
7. Maloney
8. Klinker
9. Smith
10, Horst
11. Fairel
12. Sulbaren

That doesn't count potential comebacks from Lotzkar or Buck and youngsters like Boxberger, Hildenbrandt, Ravin, Shunick, Serrano, Tuttle, Guillon, Cline and a few others.

The position player side is another story. A lot of guys with position questions who may not have enough bat for the positions they can play and guys who look like bench players, platoon guys or defensive specialists. Bruce and Votto both need to become MVP types for the others to fit in as role players. The others are pretty ho hum IMO.

jojo
03-07-2010, 10:12 AM
Sorry, but as much time, money, love and heartache that I've invested over the years in this team, I deserve the right to use the term "we".

Fair enough! But don't be shocked if some blame YOU for the last five years... :cool:

Sea Ray
03-07-2010, 12:46 PM
The biggest difference between 2005 and now is the pitching. The offensive difference is much less pronounced

Unassisted
03-07-2010, 12:52 PM
Jack Billingham years ago asked Marty Brennamen who "WE" was when Marty refered to the Reds with that word. Marty stopped using "WE" in that manner from that day forward.My rule of thumb is that your paycheck has to be issued by the team before you're entitled to use "we." Marty's always been an employee of the Reds while in the Reds' booth, so Jack's rule was apparently stricter. :beerme:

jojo
03-07-2010, 02:35 PM
To me the "we" argument concerning fans and sports teams is kind of like a person arguing that since they pay taxes, they're a police officer's boss... that argument never seems to gain much traction....

Sea Ray
03-07-2010, 08:41 PM
Of course this "we" idea has been debated before and my feeling is where professional teams are concerned, if you have ties to the city they wear on their chest then yes it is OK to use the term "we" because they are representing your city. In other words if we're taking on the Cardinals then it is St Louis vs Cincinnati; their city vs mine. That's why mayors tend to make gentlemen's bets before playoff and championship games and that's why sometimes you'll hear a comment about a football team evening the score for a loss by the baseball team. Case in point was in the 70s when the Reds would beat the Pirates, the Steelers would try to even the score. In football we recently heard the Saints players talking about how they were glad they could win one for New Orleans and the area effected by Katrina. I believe they said "this is your championship".

I root for the USA in the Olympics because they're representing my country. I wasn't on that hockey team but I wanted "us" to beat those Canadians.

If it were just the Reds or the P & G Reds I'd feel differently.

bucksfan2
03-08-2010, 09:01 AM
The biggest difference between 2005 and now is the pitching. The offensive difference is much less pronounced

Pitching is much harder, and expensive, to come by than hitting. If the Reds are in contention this season I fully expect Walt to acquirer a bat.

westofyou
03-08-2010, 09:41 AM
"We" = Shower with the team.

Fans however, pay for seats in the stands. Two seperate groups.

The Reds are definitely better off than 5 years ago. And "We" - the Reds fan base here at Redszone.com - are also better off.

Yep, "we" is for folks that are under 12 and maybe others who break stuff when the Reds lose... unless you're actually on the team.

All the rest is an attempt to place control on something one has no control of.

nate
03-08-2010, 10:35 AM
The biggest difference between 2005 and now is the pitching. The offensive difference is much less pronounced

I think the biggest difference between 2005 and now is the defense followed by the bullpen with the offense and defense a distant last.

gonelong
03-08-2010, 11:03 AM
Yep, "we" is for folks that are under 12 and maybe others who break stuff when the Reds lose... unless you're actually on the team.

All the rest is an attempt to place control on something one has no control of.

That's a pretty small box you are trying to stuff a lot of people into. :D

The Reds/Reds Fans and I have a 30+ year relationship. That's why I refer to "us" as "we" from time to time. We go way back.

GL