PDA

View Full Version : A Cardinals fans' opinion on the Reds



OnBaseMachine
03-06-2010, 01:04 AM
Cincinnati Reds: The Looming Tower

Will Leitch will be previewing/musing on every baseball team each weekday until the start of the season. You can pre-order his book and follow him on Twitter.

Today: The Cincinnati Reds.

As a fan of a similarly hued National League Central team a team I'm watching play at Roger Dean Stadium in Jupiter this very second no team in the division scares me as much as the Reds do. Everything about them is personally threatening.

The resourceful and extremely motivated leader-in-exile. General manager Walt Jocketty, still angry about being unceremonious booted by the organization he resuscitated and brought a championship to. Jocketty was encouraged to leave by a change in the Cardinals' strategic emphasis, toward the farm system and advanced statistics, away from waiting for other teams to panic and do something stupid at the trading deadline. He's still bothered that Tony LaRussa didn't leave with him, too. Jocketty wants to take down the Cardinals more than he wants to do anything.

The dunderheaded but formidable manager. The oft-maligned Dusty Baker loves nothing more than setting fire to young pitchers' arms and handing 700 plate appearances to short fast men who come to the plate with the bat upside down. But Baker has a funny habit of sticking around in spite of himself the man has reached a World Series and two NLCS with two different teams after all and has the distinct advantage of driving LaRussa absolutely crazy. The hatred Baker and Don Tony have for each other is palpable and consistently entertaining; Reds-Cardinals series inevitably end up with batters pointing their helmets and pitchers and the managers growling at each other from opposite dugouts, two middle-aged men whose stomachs hang over their uniform belts, playing tough guy. It's grand theater.

The sleeping city desperate for a revival. Cincinnati and St. Louis are more similar cities than is often noted. A baseball tradition unrivalled by any city other than New York or Boston. An urban sensibility that's both more cosmopolitan and more backwoods that anyone on either side of the extreme is willing to admit. A downtown area that's far lovelier than people realize and vastly underutilized. The impossibility of grabbing a bit to eat past 9:30 p.m. without having to find a casino. A simmering history of racial divisiveness. The color red. The difference is that, baseball-wise, Cincinnati has been dormant as St. Louis has been ascendant; the Reds are long, long overdue. I've spent many, many evenings in Cincinnati, and that town is rabid to care about its Reds again. If they get hot and are close in September, that place will froth into a frenzy. It will carry them.

Oh, yes, the players. The Reds always seems to have one or two studs on the farm "studs on the farm" is a trademarked phrase and is not to be used without written consent of the Baseball Writers Association Of America who never end up becoming what dreams had held, but these days they seem likely to break that spell by sheer volume. I mean, look at these guys: Yonder Alonso, Homer Bailey, Jay Bruce, Aroldis Chapman, Johnny Cueto, Drew Stubbs, Edinson Volquez (currently injured), Joey Votto. All of those guys are Major League ready or close to it, and all are 26 years old or younger. Not of all of them will be stars. But all of them could be, and there isn't a team in baseball who wouldn't take any of them in an Irish second. The Reds get to keep each of them, as they develop and approach their peak right now. The Reds have upside and length.

The Chicago Cubs have missed their window and are about to begin a long, slow beautiful slide back to where they belonged all along. The Brewers can't ever make all their pieces work at the same time. The Pirates are slowly crawling back to sea level but have years left to go. The Astros are a joke. No, it's the Reds: The Reds seem uniquely positioned to humiliate the beloved Cardinals and stop a second mini-NL Central dynasty before it begins. It's worse, too, because no team would enjoy it more. There is righteous revenge and furious anger to those who seek to destroy my brothers. That's the team that keeps me up nights. That's the team that could turn this all wrong for us. It's the Reds, man. It's the Reds. I'm terrified of them.

You know what's the only thing that makes me feel better about all this? I say this about the Reds every year.

http://deadspin.com/5486157/cincinnati-reds-the-looming-tower?skyline=true&s=i

Blitz Dorsey
03-06-2010, 01:12 AM
Well hell then. What an article from the creator of Deadspin. The Reds really have everyone's attention this year. Will be interesting to see if they can live up to it.

Phhhl
03-06-2010, 01:33 AM
Cincinnati Reds: The Looming Tower

Will Leitch will be previewing/musing on every baseball team each weekday until the start of the season. You can pre-order his book and follow him on Twitter.

Today: The Cincinnati Reds.

As a fan of a similarly hued National League Central team — a team I'm watching play at Roger Dean Stadium in Jupiter this very second — no team in the division scares me as much as the Reds do. Everything about them is personally threatening.

The resourceful and extremely motivated leader-in-exile. General manager Walt Jocketty, still angry about being unceremonious booted by the organization he resuscitated and brought a championship to. Jocketty was encouraged to leave by a change in the Cardinals' strategic emphasis, toward the farm system and advanced statistics, away from waiting for other teams to panic and do something stupid at the trading deadline. He's still bothered that Tony LaRussa didn't leave with him, too. Jocketty wants to take down the Cardinals more than he wants to do anything.

The dunderheaded but formidable manager. The oft-maligned Dusty Baker loves nothing more than setting fire to young pitchers' arms and handing 700 plate appearances to short fast men who come to the plate with the bat upside down. But Baker has a funny habit of sticking around in spite of himself — the man has reached a World Series and two NLCS with two different teams after all — and has the distinct advantage of driving LaRussa absolutely crazy. The hatred Baker and Don Tony have for each other is palpable and consistently entertaining; Reds-Cardinals series inevitably end up with batters pointing their helmets and pitchers and the managers growling at each other from opposite dugouts, two middle-aged men whose stomachs hang over their uniform belts, playing tough guy. It's grand theater.

The sleeping city desperate for a revival. Cincinnati and St. Louis are more similar cities than is often noted. A baseball tradition unrivalled by any city other than New York or Boston. An urban sensibility that's both more cosmopolitan and more backwoods that anyone on either side of the extreme is willing to admit. A downtown area that's far lovelier than people realize and vastly underutilized. The impossibility of grabbing a bit to eat past 9:30 p.m. without having to find a casino. A simmering history of racial divisiveness. The color red. The difference is that, baseball-wise, Cincinnati has been dormant as St. Louis has been ascendant; the Reds are long, long overdue. I've spent many, many evenings in Cincinnati, and that town is rabid to care about its Reds again. If they get hot and are close in September, that place will froth into a frenzy. It will carry them.

Oh, yes, the players. The Reds always seems to have one or two studs on the farm — "studs on the farm" is a trademarked phrase and is not to be used without written consent of the Baseball Writers Association Of America — who never end up becoming what dreams had held, but these days they seem likely to break that spell by sheer volume. I mean, look at these guys: Yonder Alonso, Homer Bailey, Jay Bruce, Aroldis Chapman, Johnny Cueto, Drew Stubbs, Edinson Volquez (currently injured), Joey Votto. All of those guys are Major League ready or close to it, and all are 26 years old or younger. Not of all of them will be stars. But all of them could be, and there isn't a team in baseball who wouldn't take any of them in an Irish second. The Reds get to keep each of them, as they develop and approach their peak right now. The Reds have upside and length.

The Chicago Cubs have missed their window and are about to begin a long, slow beautiful slide back to where they belonged all along. The Brewers can't ever make all their pieces work at the same time. The Pirates are slowly crawling back to sea level but have years left to go. The Astros are a joke. No, it's the Reds: The Reds seem uniquely positioned to humiliate the beloved Cardinals and stop a second mini-NL Central dynasty before it begins. It's worse, too, because no team would enjoy it more. There is righteous revenge and furious anger to those who seek to destroy my brothers. That's the team that keeps me up nights. That's the team that could turn this all wrong for us. It's the Reds, man. It's the Reds. I'm terrified of them.

You know what's the only thing that makes me feel better about all this? I say this about the Reds every year.

http://deadspin.com/5486157/cincinnati-reds-the-looming-tower?skyline=true&s=i

Don't try to kiss up. We expect to win and we hate your guts. How about that? :)

11larkin11
03-06-2010, 01:46 AM
I really want a rivalry. Cubs/Cardinals are obvious choices, but it depends on who you hate more, the fans (Cubs) or the organiztion as a whole (Cardinals)? I guess we (Browns/Bengals fans) can all hate the Ravens AND Steelers, so we can hate the Cubs and Cardinals equally too right?

Probably not. God I hate the Steelers. And Art Modell. But I digress.

Ron Madden
03-06-2010, 02:23 AM
It doesn't really matter how much Reds fans hate the Cards or Cubs.

The rivalry will always be St. Louis vs Chicago and vice verse. It's been that way forever.

HokieRed
03-06-2010, 09:14 AM
It doesn't really matter how much Reds fans hate the Cards or Cubs.

The rivalry will always be St. Louis vs Chicago and vice verse. It's been that way forever.

Agree. Our best chance, given the current scheduling nonsense, for a real rivalry is a revival in Pittsburgh.

Roy Tucker
03-06-2010, 09:46 AM
I didn't know LaRussa and Dusty carried such animosity towards each other.

Red in Chicago
03-06-2010, 10:00 AM
i love his description of baker:

The dunderheaded but formidable manager. The oft-maligned Dusty Baker loves nothing more than setting fire to young pitchers' arms and handing 700 plate appearances to short fast men who come to the plate with the bat upside down. But Baker has a funny habit of sticking around in spite of himself

redsfandan
03-06-2010, 10:35 AM
I'd agree with this part:

The Chicago Cubs have missed their window and are about to begin a long, slow beautiful slide back to where they belonged all along. The Brewers can't ever make all their pieces work at the same time. The Pirates are slowly crawling back to sea level but have years left to go. The Astros are a joke.
I think the Reds are in pretty good shape for the next 5+ years compared to the rest of the division. That's something to feel good about even if it can't happen soon enough.

mth123
03-06-2010, 10:51 AM
I'd agree with this part:

I think the Reds are in pretty good shape for the next 5+ years compared to the rest of the division. That's something to feel good about even if it can't happen soon enough.

The Cards have Wainwright and Carpenter, Pujols and Holiday. If Bailey, Chapman, Bruce and Votto have everything go right, they probably still won't be as good as the St. Louis core. The Reds best bet is adding Cueto, Volquez and Leake to the mix to make a dominant rotation and dealing off several of the lower ceiling, but still pretty good, near ready guys for one more impact offensive player. If Votto to LF is out, then I doubt we see a day with all three of Votto, Bruce and Alonso in the line-up together. The rest of the offensive guys are several cuts below those three. That's asking for a lot of things that haven't happened yet to go right, but the pieces to the puzzle are mostly there now. The Reds just need to make the right couple of moves to make them fit together and backfill for the ones who don't work out.

traderumor
03-06-2010, 10:55 AM
Agree. Our best chance, given the current scheduling nonsense, for a real rivalry is a revival in Pittsburgh.And that would be awesome. Although its has been a rivalry of late, but in a bad way, with both teams going head to head in September with their quasi farm teams, duking it out for the highly coveted next to last position in the division ;)

redsfandan
03-06-2010, 01:59 PM
The Cards have Wainwright and Carpenter, Pujols and Holiday. If Bailey, Chapman, Bruce and Votto have everything go right, they probably still won't be as good as the St. Louis core. The Reds best bet is adding Cueto, Volquez and Leake to the mix to make a dominant rotation and dealing off several of the lower ceiling, but still pretty good, near ready guys for one more impact offensive player. If Votto to LF is out, then I doubt we see a day with all three of Votto, Bruce and Alonso in the line-up together. The rest of the offensive guys are several cuts below those three. That's asking for a lot of things that haven't happened yet to go right, but the pieces to the puzzle are mostly there now. The Reds just need to make the right couple of moves to make them fit together and backfill for the ones who don't work out.
Some good points. But the part of the article that I quoted was referring to every other team in the division except the Cardinals. That said, I think there's a chance that the Reds could fight it out with the Cards for the division starting in 2011. All you have to do is look at the rotations for one reason why. Carpenter and Wainwright are strong but the health of Carpenter isn't exactly the most reliable and I think the Reds could have a better rotation anyway from top to bottom. Add in the payrolls after this season and farm systems and I think the Reds are still in pretty good shape relatively speaking. Throw in the fact that with the wild card the Reds don't need to win the division to make the playoffs and I think we could see the Reds in the hunt for the playoffs in September in the not too distant future.

RedsManRick
03-06-2010, 02:39 PM
The most interesting part of the article was the insight on Jocketty and the rift between Baker and LaRussa. I'm not sure I know of another rivalry where the real vitriol is between management.

HokieRed
03-06-2010, 03:55 PM
Of course I think we can overtake the Cardinals even with their big four. But it will be made easier if they cannot retain all 3 of Pujols, Wainwright, and Carpenter.

BearcatShane
03-06-2010, 05:19 PM
The Cubs and Cards are clearly the #1 Rivalry right now in the division. But IF the Reds start winning and the Cubs really fall back I truly believe the Reds and Cards could have a heck of a rivalry. Imagine a mid September Saturday Night, St. Louis in town, Reds lead the Division by 1 game over the Cards as they take the field to a sea of Red in the stands. I want it. I'm 19, the closest thing I have seen the Reds to contending was 2006. Sad.

HokieRed
03-06-2010, 05:24 PM
The Cubs and Cards are clearly the #1 Rivalry right now in the division. But IF the Reds start winning and the Cubs really fall back I truly believe the Reds and Cards could have a heck of a rivalry. Imagine a mid September Saturday Night, St. Louis in town, Reds lead the Division by 1 game over the Cards as they take the field to a sea of Red in the stands. I want it. I'm 19, the closest thing I have seen the Reds to contending was 2006. Sad.

Hope you're right. Your sense of possibility no doubt has to do with your age and that's great. For those of us of my vintage (Reds fan of 55 years), I have to say there's never been a time when the Cardinals have really been a rivalry for the Reds. And there is a big obstacle to overcome in the established rivalry between Cards and Cubs.

Will M
03-06-2010, 05:29 PM
I'd agree with this part:

I think the Reds are in pretty good shape for the next 5+ years compared to the rest of the division. That's something to feel good about even if it can't happen soon enough.


The Cards have Wainwright and Carpenter, Pujols and Holiday. If Bailey, Chapman, Bruce and Votto have everything go right, they probably still won't be as good as the St. Louis core. The Reds best bet is adding Cueto, Volquez and Leake to the mix to make a dominant rotation and dealing off several of the lower ceiling, but still pretty good, near ready guys for one more impact offensive player. If Votto to LF is out, then I doubt we see a day with all three of Votto, Bruce and Alonso in the line-up together. The rest of the offensive guys are several cuts below those three. That's asking for a lot of things that haven't happened yet to go right, but the pieces to the puzzle are mostly there now. The Reds just need to make the right couple of moves to make them fit together and backfill for the ones who don't work out.


Some good points. But the part of the article that I quoted was referring to every other team in the division except the Cardinals. That said, I think there's a chance that the Reds could fight it out with the Cards for the division starting in 2011. All you have to do is look at the rotations for one reason why. Carpenter and Wainwright are strong but the health of Carpenter isn't exactly the most reliable and I think the Reds could have a better rotation anyway from top to bottom. Add in the payrolls after this season and farm systems and I think the Reds are still in pretty good shape relatively speaking. Throw in the fact that with the wild card the Reds don't need to win the division to make the playoffs and I think we could see the Reds in the hunt for the playoffs in September in the not too distant future.

1. IMO the Reds are setting themselves up for a multiseason run of strong teams

2. there is no doubt that the "Big Four" of the Cards are indeed mighty big. i would add Molina and make it a big 4&1/2. Molina is an average bat & a gold glove defensive catcher.

3. However, after the big 4&1/2 the Cardinals don't have a single player who can for sure be league average at his position. this is where i think the Reds can overtake them. maybe not in 2010 but soon.

4. check out fangraphs for a recent article on how lucky the Cards pen was last year. their best reliever is Trevor Miller. yikes!

BCubb2003
03-06-2010, 05:55 PM
Hope you're right. Your sense of possibility no doubt has to do with your age and that's great. For those of us of my vintage (Reds fan of 55 years), I have to say there's never been a time when the Cardinals have really been a rivalry for the Reds. And there is a big obstacle to overcome in the established rivalry between Cards and Cubs.

It's hard to have a rivalry if you haven't been very good. There are natural rivalries like Cards-Cubs, but there was no natural reason for the Reds-Dodgers rivalry in the 70s.

BearcatShane
03-06-2010, 06:01 PM
Hope you're right. Your sense of possibility no doubt has to do with your age and that's great. For those of us of my vintage (Reds fan of 55 years), I have to say there's never been a time when the Cardinals have really been a rivalry for the Reds. And there is a big obstacle to overcome in the established rivalry between Cards and Cubs.

Hmmm. Well I think it can be a rivalry. St. Louis is know for being the base baseball town in America. There was a time when Cincinnati was right there with them if not ahead. I can see a rivalry, have Homer Bailey drill Albert P. in the back, have a scuffle and there ya go.

HokieRed
03-06-2010, 06:12 PM
It's hard to have a rivalry if you haven't been very good. There are natural rivalries like Cards-Cubs, but there was no natural reason for the Reds-Dodgers rivalry in the 70s.

Reds-Dodgers were already a rivalry in the 50's. That's when everybody in the NL hated the Dodgers because they were sort of the National League version of the Yankees. Rivalry in the 70's was rooted in the earlier one. That's part of the problem; you can't make a rivalry, it's got to grow over a number of years. That's what some of us who miss playing all the teams in the NL miss most.

Ron Madden
03-06-2010, 06:14 PM
Reds-Dodgers were already a rivalry in the 50's. That's when everybody in the NL hated the Dodgers because they were sort of the National League version of the Yankees. Rivalry in the 70's was rooted in the earlier one. That's part of the problem; you can't make a rivalry, it's got to grow over a number of years. That's what some of us who miss playing all the teams in the NL miss most.

I'm in agreement with this.

corkedbat
03-06-2010, 07:01 PM
I miss the old Reds/Dodgers rivalries. Those were fun. Loved to hate LaSoirdid

Ron Madden
03-06-2010, 11:47 PM
Hmmm. Well I think it can be a rivalry. St. Louis is know for being the base baseball town in America. There was a time when Cincinnati was right there with them if not ahead. I can see a rivalry, have Homer Bailey drill Albert P. in the back, have a scuffle and there ya go.


I think it takes a little bit more than that to create a rivalry. ;)

Strikes Out Looking
03-07-2010, 08:25 PM
Rivalry or no rivalry, I hate the Cardinals. I hate LaRussa. I hate their hitting coach. I hate their first baseman.

Spring~Fields
03-07-2010, 08:30 PM
I think it takes a little bit more than that to create a rivalry. ;)

How about if Arroyo tosses one of those, what was that, tar ball? Well, anyway, Arroyo let one loose on Duncan? That might do it. :devil:

Phhhl
03-07-2010, 10:47 PM
Rivalry or no rivalry, I hate the Cardinals. I hate LaRussa. I hate their hitting coach. I hate their first baseman.

I'll drink to that. LaRussa is like an alcoholic stalker who fell in sick love with destroying our lives as a result of being embarassed in the 1990 World Series. He has spent the balance of his career knowingly protecting steroid cheaters and micromanaging the game to the point that 60% of the world has no tolerance for all the pitching changes, double switches and defensive replacements that turn the modern game into a four hour bore-fest on any given night. Casual fans just don't like the game as much as it did before this "genius" wielded his curse over the modern game. No single Cardinal team, including the Gas House Gang or the current group of villians, remotely approaches the best teams our organization has fielded in it's history. And yet we constantly have to endure the media's fawning over the storied history of that organization as if they are the National League version of the New York Yankees. I don't care what they think of us, I have enough reason to go down to GAB every time the Deadbirds come to town hoping to see the good guys beat the leaving snot out of them.

Just don't charge me "premium game" prices for doing so. I didn't have to pay them to see the Dodgers in the 70's, and these Cardinal clubs are no better than those also-rans...

Ron Madden
03-08-2010, 01:42 AM
I'll drink to that. LaRussa is like an alcoholic stalker who fell in sick love with destroying our lives as a result of being embarassed in the 1990 World Series. He has spent the balance of his career knowingly protecting steroid cheaters and micromanaging the game to the point that 60% of the world has no tolerance for all the pitching changes, double switches and defensive replacements that turn the modern game into a four hour bore-fest on any given night. Casual fans just don't like the game as much as it did before this "genius" wielded his curse over the modern game. No single Cardinal team, including the Gas House Gang or the current group of villians, remotely approaches the best teams our organization has fielded in it's history. And yet we constantly have to endure the media's fawning over the storied history of that organization as if they are the National League version of the New York Yankees. I don't care what they think of us, I have enough reason to go down to GAB every time the Deadbirds come to town hoping to see the good guys beat the leaving snot out of them.

Just don't charge me "premium game" prices for doing so. I didn't have to pay them to see the Dodgers in the 70's, and these Cardinal clubs are no better than those also-rans...

I think that's unfair. St. Louis has had some pretty good teams through the years with some pretty good players and few HOF players.

JMHO

REDblooded
03-08-2010, 03:51 AM
I think that's unfair. St. Louis has had some pretty good teams through the years with some pretty good players and few HOF players.

JMHO

It's true though... The best Reds team of all time is widely considered one of the two best teams to every play the game... Not sure you would see a single Cardinals team in the top 10...

Mario-Rijo
03-08-2010, 06:22 AM
I believe the soon to be rivalry will be Cincy and Milwaukee. The Cards have a big future gap in talent to come.

Strikes Out Looking
03-08-2010, 08:01 AM
I believe the soon to be rivalry will be Cincy and Milwaukee. The Cards have a big future gap in talent to come.

I'm not so sure Milwaukee is going to stay at a top level. I'm not sold on their pitching and I think Fielder may eat his way out of baseball before too long.

By the way, how ironic is it that LaRussa, who has single handedly made baseball games way too long, was put on the panel looking into making baseball games shorter? Next, he will be put on a PED's panel. Or an alcohol awareness panel. You get my point.

Ron Madden
03-08-2010, 10:45 AM
I know the Big Red Machine is one of the best teams of all time.

I was just saying the Cardinals have a pretty nice history themselves.

I'm a Reds Fan but I'm a Basebll Fan too.

REDblooded
03-08-2010, 01:20 PM
I know the Big Red Machine is one of the best teams of all time.

I was just saying the Cardinals have a pretty nice history themselves.

I'm a Reds Fan but I'm a Basebll Fan too.

I won't argue that at all... And Pujols, as a person and a baseball player, is possibly the best to ever play the game...