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OnBaseMachine
03-06-2010, 12:55 PM
Good stuff from Dusty and C. Trent:

* I know everyone loves to criticize Dusty Baker, to pick out any inconsistency in any quote, pick at any decision made and jump to the same old conclusions.

My thing is, if you sit back and listen to him, most of the time he makes a lot of sense. And I can also see why guys love to play for him. Orlando Cabrera said it's one of the big reasons he chose to play for the Reds, with Dusty you know where you stand and you know what you're going to be doing.

Today we were talking about Johnny Cueto.

"I hope he keeps taking steps, I can't judge how far those steps are," Baker said. "There are a lot of guys around the league that got here early, everyone's not (Tim) Lincecum. You look at guys Matt Cain in San Francisco, these guys are still learning. They're still only 23 years old and they've got two years in the big leagues already."

Cueto has shown those flashes of being a dominant starter, but has also struggled at times.

"We're helping to get this finished product and we all want this finished product, but sometimes you've got to let the product finish," Baker said. "It's like that story about the little kid that plants a seed and the plants started growing and he pulled on it to help it grow and killed it. Sometimes you've got to let it grow - just water it sometimes."

I then noted it was the same with Homer Bailey.

"We're all in a hurry for these guys and that's the hard part of coaching sometimes is not to overcoach sometimes," Baker said. "I was talking to Tony Phillips about that this morning, that's what Bill Walsh would tell me all time."

Baker said he could see Cueto maturing on the mound, in part because he had fewer of those really bad innings last year than he did the year before.

"You're seeing these guys mature, him and Homer and as long as you're taking positive steps and then bang, once they get it, they'll keep it for a while," Baker said. "You look at Greg Maddux's first years in the big leagues, Smoltz and Glavine, look at a whole bunch of them. I'd like to compare (Cueto's) years to those guys, Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling. Nolan Ryan. I think people forget. What would we do (today) if we had Steve Carlton and he lost 20 games? I bet nobody remembers he lost 20 games. When I first came up, Nolan Ryan was in long relief, he couldn't make the starting rotation."

I'm sure someone will pull a number somewhere, but a single exception doesn't change the rule. Young guys play young sometimes, and sometimes you have to let them grow and learn. There was a game late last year where Homer Bailey had pitched well through four or five innings, then got into some trouble with walks and everyone wanted him pulled. Well, Baker let him stay in and get shelled. A couple of starts later, Bailey got in the same situation and got out of it. Homer gave Baker a lot of credit and said it was because he was left out there the time before and he learned from it.

I know Dusty-bashing is Cincinnati's favorite pastime (just another example of how sometimes Cincinnati tries too hard to follow Chicago's lead) and the man certainly has some different ideas about baseball than some of us, but it doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's doing. It doesn't mean he knows more about baseball than I do and it doesn't mean there aren't positives to what he's doing here. Is the guy perfect? No. But he does have a lot of experience and has won a ton of games. I don't think that's a mistake.

(Now, rant on to me why I'm wrong.)

http://cnati.com/blogs/ctrent/2010/03/morning-reds-3610.php

Spring~Fields
03-06-2010, 01:04 PM
Will they have to bring in Soto again this year to get Johnny back on track ?

Spring~Fields
03-06-2010, 01:10 PM
Good stuff from Dusty and C. Trent:

* I know everyone loves to criticize Dusty Baker, to pick out any inconsistency in any quote, pick at any decision made and jump to the same old conclusions.

My thing is, if you sit back and listen to him, most of the time he makes a lot of sense.

I know Dusty-bashing is Cincinnati's favorite pastime (just another example of how sometimes Cincinnati tries too hard to follow Chicago's lead) and the man certainly has some different ideas about baseball than some of us, but it doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's doing. It doesn't mean he knows more about baseball than I do and it doesn't mean there aren't positives to what he's doing here. Is the guy perfect? No. But he does have a lot of experience and has won a ton of games. I don't think that's a mistake.

(Now, rant on to me why I'm wrong.)

http://cnati.com/blogs/ctrent/2010/03/morning-reds-3610.php

Why is that?

Does results and outcomes have anything to do with any of it?

I'll bet whatever C. Trent is getting paid to write what he does that the people really cheer and praise when they witness good results and outcomes too. :)

traderumor
03-06-2010, 01:11 PM
Very good stuff. Anybody who actually makes a decision is a target. I've learned that the most critical are often those with little or no decision-making experience, because if they had the experience, they would have more compassion and patience with others making decisions.

Joseph
03-06-2010, 02:08 PM
Very good stuff. Anybody who actually makes a decision is a target. I've learned that the most critical are often those with little or no decision-making experience, because if they had the experience, they would have more compassion and patience with others making decisions.

Absolutely correct. Dusty is not a genius however he has won a ton of baseball games and I don't think its in spite of his decision making as many of us imply from time to time.

OUReds
03-06-2010, 02:24 PM
CTrent's stuff this spring has been excellent. He has convinced me to subscribe to his site when I get some spare cash.

Roy Tucker
03-06-2010, 02:34 PM
Yeah. I mentioned in other places that Dusty does some things well and other things not as much. But that's like most MLB managers (and the human race in general).

By and large, I think he's pretty decent. The people side of things he does very well. I wouldn't put Dusty in the top 10 of "Things that are wrong with the Reds".

11larkin11
03-06-2010, 02:42 PM
Agree 100% with CTR. Great piece.

RANDY IN INDY
03-06-2010, 03:16 PM
Very good stuff. Anybody who actually makes a decision is a target. I've learned that the most critical are often those with little or no decision-making experience, because if they had the experience, they would have more compassion and patience with others making decisions.

"A person in a position of leadership must make decisions. Making decisions is a tough job. Those outside of leadership can make suggestions. Making suggestions is an easy job. Everybody has a suggestion. Not everybody has a decision." John Wooden

traderumor
03-06-2010, 03:31 PM
"A person in a position of leadership must make decisions. Making decisions is a tough job. Those outside of leadership can make suggestions. Making suggestions is an easy job. Everybody has a suggestion. Not everybody has a decision." John Wooden

One of my favorite books of all time is They Call Me Coach :)

RedsManRick
03-06-2010, 03:34 PM
My take on Dusty has always been that he'd be an awesome bench coach, working with the guys as people. Every decision for Dusty seems to be a personal one; he goes above and beyond to make his guys feel good about themselves. Unfortunately, that doesn't always serve the clubs best interest. Sure, sometimes it means a guy gets his confidence built by fighting through a tough 4th inning. But other times it means running Willy Taveras out there day after day or letting that starter throw 10 more pitches after he's gotten tired, lost his mechanics and is getting shelled.

I have no problem with having Dusty on the coaching staff. I just don't like the down-side risk that comes with his decision making process and I don't like his constant unwillingness to take the blame when his decisions blow up. I'd much rather have Dusty making suggestions and think he'll make a great Whitey Herzog someday.

Spring~Fields
03-06-2010, 04:27 PM
My take on Dusty has always been that he'd be an awesome bench coach, working with the guys as people. Every decision for Dusty seems to be a personal one; he goes above and beyond to make his guys feel good about themselves. Unfortunately, that doesn't always serve the clubs best interest. Sure, sometimes it means a guy gets his confidence built by fighting through a tough 4th inning. But other times it means running Willy Taveras out there day after day or letting that starter throw 10 more pitches after he's gotten tired, lost his mechanics and is getting shelled.

I have no problem with having Dusty on the coaching staff. I just don't like the down-side risk that comes with his decision making process and I don't like his constant unwillingness to take the blame when his decisions blow up. I'd much rather have Dusty making suggestions and think he'll make a great Whitey Herzog someday.

You guys can throw all the rocks that you want but, I have to ask the question.

Why isn’t Dusty Baker, with all his fine attributes and winning record, why isn’t he still in San Francisco or Chicago?

Are they above needing people with such fine qualities and a winning history? They couldn’t afford him? Why would they ever let such a great manager slip away? why isn’t he still in San Francisco or Chicago?

RANDY IN INDY
03-06-2010, 04:39 PM
Why isn't Larussa still in Chicago or in Oakland with Billy Beane? Managers today aren't Walter Alston. Owners today have little patience.

westofyou
03-06-2010, 04:47 PM
You guys can throw all the rocks that you want but, I have to ask the question.

Why isn’t Dusty Baker, with all his fine attributes and winning record, why isn’t he still in San Francisco or Chicago?

Are they above needing people with such fine qualities and a winning history? They couldn’t afford him? Why would they ever let such a great manager slip away? why isn’t he still in San Francisco or Chicago?

He got in a tift with upper managment in SF, but that said his time there was more than any Reds manager ever achieved, including their 2 most famous managers.

Spring~Fields
03-06-2010, 05:16 PM
He got in a tift with upper managment in SF, but that said his time there was more than any Reds manager ever achieved, including their 2 most famous managers.

I won't mention Bonds or Sosa, but, you know what happens to a Michigan or Ohio State and their records if caught cheating.

But, I think that is a pretty good response. Seems like you made a fair one to me.

Always the, “yeah buts” it seems like in life, I have a “yeah but“, too. Goes like this, if the well respected general manager, Walt Jocketty is so fond of continuity in managers, coaching and other personnel, and if he could modify a Rolen contract to extend his, why hasn’t Walt Jocketty extended Dusty Baker’s, and even at the end of last season, like Mr. Jocketty indicates in the media that he likes to do at the end of the seasons? What’s the hold up, Dusty Baker might get a better offer at the end of this contract and get away.

What's he getting now, 3 million a year? How about an extension, 4 four years sixteen million? :)

redsmetz
03-06-2010, 05:28 PM
I won't mention Bonds or Sosa, but, you know what happens to a Michigan or Ohio State and their records if caught cheating.

But, I think that is a pretty good response. Seems like you made a fair one to me.

Always the, “yeah buts” it seems like in life, I have a “yeah but“, too. Goes like this, if the well respected general manager, Walt Jocketty is so fond of continuity in managers, coaching and other personnel, and if he could modify a Rolen contract to extend his, why hasn’t Walt Jocketty extended Dusty Baker’s, and even at the end of last season, like Mr. Jocketty indicates in the media that he likes to do at the end of the seasons? What’s the hold up, Dusty Baker might get a better offer at the end of this contract and get away.

What's he getting now, 3 million a year? How about an extension, 4 four years sixteen million? :)

I know it will cause pandemonium here on RZ, but I won't be shocked when Baker's extended after this season.

Scrap Irony
03-06-2010, 05:37 PM
I don't think Walt Alston, Sparky Anderson, or Connie Mack could have done much more than Dusty has done with what Cincinnati has had.

jojo
03-06-2010, 05:39 PM
Dusty says a lot of things that simply shouldn't be taken seriously.

Clearly one can be critical of Dusty while also being in a position where they make many decisions.

I'd argue a more accurate characterization is that both camps prone to sniping-those that praise Dusty and those that are hypercritical of him-assume a manager has a much greater impact on results than a manager really does.

Scrap Irony
03-06-2010, 05:44 PM
I think the pro-Dusty camp on Redszone is both incredibly small (in number) and also extremely likely to cite the lack of impact a manager makes, other than as a people manager.

It's the anti-Dusty camp that both overvalues the effect of a manager and insists Teh Duh-sty (or whatever they're calling him now) is somehow responsible for the Reds' struggles over the last three years.

marcshoe
03-06-2010, 06:00 PM
I'm finding myself being more and more supportive of Dusty simply because I've become so weary of all the useless changes. I understand the criticisms, and I've been as flabbergasted at some of his lineups as anyone, but over the past few years the Reds have hired one inept manager after another, and Dusty at least knows what he wants, seems to care on a deeper level than just wanting to keep his job, and is strong enough to provide a solid foundation of leadership. I think that given a solid team, he can win. Would he be the first manager I'd choose? No, but right now I'm rooting for him to succeed.

Will M
03-06-2010, 06:18 PM
I actually want Dusty back after this season.

I think he is a very good 'people person' and does things like making players comfortable & getting good effort out of players. what the Reds and Dusty need is a 'bench nerd' to sit beside him. a guy who knows how many innings each reliever can go today. a guy who knows who has a career .789 average vs a reliever and who has a career .076 average vs a reliever. a guy who knows exactly how many pitches the starter has thrown. a guy who knows every X and every 0 that need to be known.

i personally like the manager to be the guy who is the people person rather than the guy who is the nerd.

traderumor
03-06-2010, 06:55 PM
Clearly one can be critical of Dusty while also being in a position where they make many decisions.

Clearly. The comment, general in nature, was "the most critical..." Another way of saying it is "the least fair..." Those who "make many decisions" will usually at least attempt to be fair in their criticism and not always look at a decision maker's decision from the basis of "what I would or would not do." All decision makers can be criticized for their decisions because all decision makers will make poor decisions at times. However, the most ruthless seem to be those who do not find themselves in decision making capacities, or stink at it themselves.

Spring~Fields
03-06-2010, 08:45 PM
I know it will cause pandemonium here on RZ, but I won't be shocked when Baker's extended after this season.

Honestly, I would not be shocked either. Probably with a big raise, even though if some are right that a manager has little or no impact, it would not follow to pay very much for a manager to begin with, especially when they have so little impact on the results and outcomes. Why not find one with professional baseball knowledge and some experience at a bare minimum price? They don't have any impact and they are as only good as their players, so why pay one large amounts of money for something that doesn't exist? :)

Side question:
Another thing, I know we all agree that it is the players that play the game, how's come with Cincinnati media it seems to be the interviews and stories are predominately from or with Dusy Baker comments and very limited stories or input and feedback from the individual players, and the ones that really do impact the games? I would rather hear from or read the various players input and feedback each day than some manager that has no impact. Ever notice how much Baker this or Baker that, as in said this or that vs the players when we are reading about the Reds? Why is that?

_Sir_Charles_
03-06-2010, 08:54 PM
Side question:
Another thing, I know we all agree that it is the players that play the game, how's come with Cincinnati media it seems to be the interviews and stories are predominately from or with Dusy Baker comments and very limited stories or input and feedback from the individual players, and the ones that really do impact the games? I would rather hear from or read the various players input and feedback each day than some manager that has no impact. Ever notice how much Baker this or Baker that, as in said this or that vs the players when we are reading about the Reds? Why is that?

Personally, I like that. It shows me that Dusty is saying to the media that the players have a job to do and he wants them to focus on it. It also eliminates alot of the "scandal" type of stuff from players saying the wrong thing to the media. Like the comments Dickerson made to the media a week ago. I think Dusty would rather be the go-between and the diplomat in the player-media relationship. Better for all involved IMO.

Spring~Fields
03-06-2010, 09:01 PM
Personally, I like that. It shows me that Dusty is saying to the media that the players have a job to do and he wants them to focus on it. It also eliminates alot of the "scandal" type of stuff from players saying the wrong thing to the media. Like the comments Dickerson made to the media a week ago. I think Dusty would rather be the go-between and the diplomat in the player-media relationship. Better for all involved IMO.

You have a good point.

We don't want any media types looking for something, anything to make some dirt out of, and stir trouble where there would not have been any. Just because someone said what they thought at the moment and then tomorrow in after thought would not have.

Still would like to hear more from the players on the game, and their game etc.

jojo
03-06-2010, 09:31 PM
A significant portion of a manager's job is to interface with the media.... Dusty is a large personality in that regard....

OnBaseMachine
03-06-2010, 10:31 PM
Cueto encouraged by first start of spring
Allows two earned runs, but pleased with work he got in
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

03/06/10 7:20 PM EST

GOODYEAR, Ariz. -- Unlike past Spring Trainings, Reds pitcher Johnny Cueto didn't have the foundation of extensive winter ball at his native Dominican Republic before coming to camp.

With 171 1/3 innings pitched last season, the Reds didn't want Cueto to pitch any more.

"I took it slow and took it easy, chilling at home," Cueto said in clear English after his start vs. the Indians. He took the loss in a 4-2 final.

No winter ball hasn't seemed to put Cueto too behind in his preparation.

"Johnny looks great," Reds manager Dusty Baker said before the game. "He looks in great shape. He's throwing the ball great."

In his two innings vs. Cleveland, Cueto gave up four runs, two earned, and five hits. He walked one and struck out two.

To start Cueto's day in the first inning, leadoff batter Michael Brantley reached on first baseman Joey Votto's throwing error. The mistake led to two unearned runs.

In the bottom of the second inning, Cueto walked Austin Kearns with a 3-1 pitch before the next batter, Andy Marte, smoked a first-pitch fastball for a two-run homer to left field.

"After that, he threw some quality pitches," Baker said. "He's been working on some things, working on his changeup and cutter. He's still trying to perfect those things as well as the stuff he already has. He made some quality pitches. Then he was trying to throw something else and got it over the heart of the plate on that home run."

Cueto believed he threw around 45 pitches in his outing and was pleased with the work he got in.

"It went very well today. I was working the pitches," Cueto said during his first comment through an interpreter.

Cueto has taken a step forward that you won't notice on the mound or in a pitching line. A native of the Dominican Republic, the 24-year-old right-hander is starting to get more comfortable with speaking English when talking to reporters.

At first, the Reds lined up Goodyear Police Sgt. Jimmy Rodriguez to interpret. After a few minutes, Cueto started answering some questions in English on his own.

"That's improvement right there," Baker said.

Sensing that the questions were over, Cueto asked everyone, "All set?"

Cueto is all set to take the No. 2 spot in the Reds rotation this season, between Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo. The club is looking for more improvement as well after Cueto finished 11-11 with a 4.41 ERA in 30 starts. He walked 61 and struck out 132 batters.

Getting season-long consistency from Cueto would be another step forward. He was considered a contender for the All-Star Game when he went 8-4 with a 2.69 ERA over his first 16 starts. But Cueto went 0-4 with a 10.64 ERA over the next eight starts and then went on the disabled list with right shoulder inflammation.

The Reds were concerned Cueto was taking on too much. After his rookie season, he pitched winter ball and in the World Baseball Classic. After the rest from the DL stint, he was much sharper and stronger with a 3-1 record and a 3.63 ERA over his final six starts.

"I hope he keeps taking steps," Baker said. "I can't judge how big the steps are. There are a lot of guys around the league that got here early. Everybody is not Tim Lincecum. Look at guys like Matt Cain in San Francisco. They're still learning, but they're only 23 years old and have two years in the big leagues already. We're helping to get this finished product. We all want this finished product. Sometimes you have to let the product finish."

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100306&content_id=8703172&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Spring~Fields
03-06-2010, 10:34 PM
A significant portion of a manager's job is to interface with the media.... Dusty is a large personality in that regard....

That's true, I know that is right. I am just missing the boat a bit, I don't know what my problem is, maybe I can find a snow bank to stick my head in for awhile to get the neurons and circuits to line back up right. :bang:

Mario-Rijo
03-07-2010, 02:57 AM
Winning teams are for the most part winners because they have the players. That said Managers without question have an impact and it can be both negative and positive. I doubt any manager could take a 78 win team on paper and win 90 games more than one lucky time perhaps. Likewise sans injuries I don't think a manager no matter how poor (relative to his peers) would cause a 78 win team to win 60 games. But I do believe that a Mgr can sway a record a handful of games one way or another and I think Dusty generally costs his teams as many wins as he helps to create at least. He has some really sharp but unorthodox ideas and he has one (or maybe 2) really obvious and faulty perception(s) of the game. Or he is an awful communicator to the fans and media. I do think he is a bit misunderstood but he brings it on himself with his stubborness and defensive style. He also does seem to place blame elsewhere at times as well.

My problem with him (or anyone) is when he does something that is blatantly obviously wrong. His contact vs. no contact bias (and although not often discussed does exist IMO) is mostly discouraging, sometimes guys who have a tough time making contact (Dunn, Dickerson, even Gomes initially) can still do enough to be productive and some guys who make contact (Taveras, Patterson, Janish, McDonald) aren't always productive enough. Also his clog the bases theory is a really foolish notion because he allows it to go to extremes. I guess when I think about it that is what his issues are he sees some things largely in extremes that clearly aren't just black and white.

I personally hope he doesn't come back in '11 but I suspect he will because we might have a winning season that I don't think he will have a ton to do with. And it's not that I don't think he has plenty of redeeming qualities but that he clearly has those major flaws IMO. Of course if the GM would recognize the flaws and not allow him toys of self destruction I wouldn't have a world of problems with him sticking around for good.

tripleaaaron
03-07-2010, 04:28 AM
My take on Dusty has always been that he'd be an awesome bench coach, working with the guys as people. Every decision for Dusty seems to be a personal one; he goes above and beyond to make his guys feel good about themselves. Unfortunately, that doesn't always serve the clubs best interest. Sure, sometimes it means a guy gets his confidence built by fighting through a tough 4th inning. But other times it means running Willy Taveras out there day after day or letting that starter throw 10 more pitches after he's gotten tired, lost his mechanics and is getting shelled.

I have no problem with having Dusty on the coaching staff. I just don't like the down-side risk that comes with his decision making process and I don't like his constant unwillingness to take the blame when his decisions blow up. I'd much rather have Dusty making suggestions and think he'll make a great Whitey Herzog someday.

This is exactly my sentiments as well. I also feel the trying to be like chicagoans knock was a little uncalled for. We are nothing like chicago fans and there are in fact justifiable reasons for bashing on a manager who arranges his order based on the position they play. I think Dusty has many strong managerial qualities and I think he does have a positive impact on some of our players. But he should let someone else mnage the lineup and pitching changes, for it is well known that that has never been his strong suit.

Homer Bailey
03-08-2010, 11:48 AM
I find that support for Dusty often appears to be very high during the offseason, and once the season starts, people start realizing all over again why they can't stand this guy as manager. At least that's the camp I find myself in. I do the same with WVU football. Every offseason, I convince myself that Bill Stewart is a good game coach, and by week 3, I realize how wrong I was.

This year, Dusty has a chance to actually not fail everyday because he doesn't have a Corey Patterson or a Willy Taveras to torture us with. He can actually bat CF first and SS 2nd and not get too much grief for it. He should succeed this year, based on his tendancies, and the current roster that the Reds have. We shall see.

Spring~Fields
03-08-2010, 12:17 PM
He can actually bat CF first and SS 2nd and not get too much hate for it. He should succeed this year, based on his tendancies, and the current roster that the Reds have. We shall see.

That is really scary. :scared:

You mean that there are people who actually “hate” :angry: someone over baseball decisions, over a game?

Point these folks out so that I can avoid them and maybe keep from serious harm, will you? :fineprint

Seems to me that there is a major difference between “hate” and “frustration” or “disappointment“. :confused:

Maybe we can run a poll with the three choices below and find out who they are and turn them into or over to Dr. Phil, Oprah, or the IRS ?? :dunno:

Poll -
Hate - feeling of intense hostility: a feeling of intense hostility toward somebody or something

frus·tra·tion - dissatisfaction: a feeling of disappointment, exasperation, or weariness caused by goals being thwarted or desires unsatisfied

dis·ap·point·ment - feeling of being let down: a feeling of sadness or frustration because something was not as good, attractive, or satisfactory as expected, or because something hoped for did not happen

I’ll put my X next to disappointment. :cry:

Homer Bailey
03-08-2010, 12:20 PM
That is really scary. :scared:

You mean that there are people who actually “hate” :angry: someone over baseball decisions, over a game?

Point these folks out so that I can avoid them and maybe keep from serious harm, will you? :fineprint

Seems to me that there is a major difference between “hate” and “frustration” or “disappointment“. :confused:

Maybe we can run a poll with the three choices below and find out who they are and turn them into or over to Dr. Phil, Oprah, or the IRS ?? :dunno:

Poll -
Hate - feeling of intense hostility: a feeling of intense hostility toward somebody or something

frus·tra·tion - dissatisfaction: a feeling of disappointment, exasperation, or weariness caused by goals being thwarted or desires unsatisfied

dis·ap·point·ment - feeling of being let down: a feeling of sadness or frustration because something was not as good, attractive, or satisfactory as expected, or because something hoped for did not happen

I’ll put my X next to disappointment. :cry:

Wow.

I edited my post to avoid arguing semantics, as that was clearly not my point.

Spring~Fields
03-08-2010, 12:30 PM
Wow.

I edited my post to avoid arguing semantics, as that was clearly not my point.

You're right, the IRS suggestion was a bit harsh. :pray: I'm sorry.

:oops:

:luvu:Dusty Baker, and all his choices and decisions :luvu:

:help:

The meaning of a word is not in it's definition, the meaning of a word is in the user of that word.