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Kingspoint
03-09-2010, 03:37 PM
Because the REDS are going to have to medically study his arm over a period of months while he has a series of starts in regular season games.

They can't do this at the Major Leauge level as his playing time would hinge on situation and Dusty Baker, along with the fact that they'd find it hard to control what he throws.

The REDS have very little information on Chapman's "exact" past as far as innings pitched, what he threw in those starts, etc., etc..

The REDS are going to have to have him throw in the minors under "controlled conditions"; and, then they'll peform ongoing medical tests to see how his arm reacts.

Only after they have this information can they come up with a "plan for his future that includes letting him loose in the Majors".

Any plan other than this is not prudent, and they didn't invest all of that money so that he can throw one season and then have an injury.

While he's in the minors, they are also going to tweek his mechanics so that his arm lasts through the life of the contract, and so he can get to 210-220 innings on a regular basis without fear of harm to the arm.

The REDS are going to be very, very careful with this "child".

It's practically like adopting a kid from Africa. You're going to spend the first year doing all types of adjustments both medically and physically to the child.

Griffey012
03-09-2010, 04:01 PM
Because the REDS are going to have to medically study his arm over a period of months while he has a series of starts in regular season games.

They can't do this at the Major Leauge level as his playing time would hinge on situation and Dusty Baker, along with the fact that they'd find it hard to control what he throws.

The REDS have very little information on Chapman's "exact" past as far as innings pitched, what he threw in those starts, etc., etc..

The REDS are going to have to have him throw in the minors under "controlled conditions"; and, then they'll peform ongoing medical tests to see how his arm reacts.

Only after they have this information can they come up with a "plan for his future that includes letting him loose in the Majors".

Any plan other than this is not prudent, and they didn't invest all of that money so that he can throw one season and then have an injury.

While he's in the minors, they are also going to tweek his mechanics so that his arm lasts through the life of the contract, and so he can get to 210-220 innings on a regular basis without fear of harm to the arm.

The REDS are going to be very, very careful with this "child".

It's practically like adopting a kid from Africa. You're going to spend the first year doing all types of adjustments both medically and physically to the child.

"Tweaking" his mechanics just gives me chills. If he has thrown this way his whole life just leave him be, tweaking the mechanics will probably do more damage than prevent damage. To me his mechanics look pretty fluid and solid, very effortless arm motion.

BLEEDS
03-09-2010, 04:08 PM
And what factually based information are you basing this on exactly?

They have his "info" from his time on the Cuban team.

Dr. Kremcheck did an MRI on him, and said it was the most pristine he's ever seen, remarkably so.
That, combined with his ridiculously effortless delivery, have me thinking this is one of the least concerns they have at this point.

They are going to pitch him where all the evidence says he needs to pitch.
If anything, they are probably more concerned with keeping him in the minors for a bit, just to avoid allowing him to get to a "Super 2" thereby activing some contract clauses that allow him to get more money out of his current contract.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

SidneySlicker
03-09-2010, 04:12 PM
King I just don't get why you are so mental when it comes to the the reds pitchers arms. If this kid hits his cieling for potential do you think he'll be here more than 6 years anyway? Pitching injuries have just as much to do with genetics as it does i.p. etc. If the Reds want to bring Chapman up north to start the season, great. If they don't feel he's ready yet and want him to spend some time in the minors great. You have to get over this, handling pitchers with kid gloves mentality.

Mr Larkin
03-09-2010, 05:52 PM
Not so sure about all the medical stuff. Looks like they could simply monitor him closely during ST. I'm just excited that he is pitching so well out of the gate.

defender
03-09-2010, 07:12 PM
I think those are additional factors. Until yesterday, I don't think anyone expected him to make the team this Spring. After only 3 IP, I think we can still assume he will not make the team. I do not think he will pitch this well all Spring. If he does, I hope he makes the team.

Kingspoint
03-09-2010, 07:59 PM
"Tweaking" his mechanics just gives me chills. If he has thrown this way his whole life just leave him be, tweaking the mechanics will probably do more damage than prevent damage. To me his mechanics look pretty fluid and solid, very effortless arm motion.

These are experts. They are going to tweek him for the better.

Kingspoint
03-09-2010, 08:00 PM
And what factually based information are you basing this on exactly?



Common Sense

Kingspoint
03-09-2010, 08:08 PM
Bryan Price's comments:

"It’s not unrealistic to see (him making the club)," said Price. "But in the same respect, there’s a lot of spring to go. There’s a lot of decisions to be made. I don’t think that decision is going to be made until we get a lot closer to the end, and there’s a lot more involved than performance. But, right now, I hope he forces our hand."

BLEEDS
03-09-2010, 08:17 PM
Bryan Price's comments:

"Itís not unrealistic to see (him making the club)," said Price. "But in the same respect, thereís a lot of spring to go. Thereís a lot of decisions to be made. I donít think that decision is going to be made until we get a lot closer to the end, and thereís a lot more involved than performance. But, right now, I hope he forces our hand."

Right, like FINANCES.
If you think this implies anything about "measuring the affect of workload on his elbow in carefully controlled conditions and performing a series of ongoing medical tests", then I don't know what to tell you.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Griffey012
03-09-2010, 08:25 PM
These are experts. They are going to tweek him for the better.

Half of the people who may "tweak" him probably don't have a clue about the science of the arm and the muscles, I am sure they have never studied anything about Kinesiology and how certain pitches pressure and strain certain parts of the arm/body during delivery. Most of these guys are coaches who played the game and that is what got them into the role they are in. A majority of pitching coaches are great about pitching strategy, pitch types, drills, and routines, but most all of them don't really know much about what causes injuries. Their aspects of proper arm motion and deliveries is usually old school, such as throwing sidearm hurts your elbow, those who said guys like Mark Prior had good mechanics, etc.

When you are talking about a 30 million dollar investment on a lefty that hits 100 with a fluid looking delivery, I don't want any of our so called "experts" tweaking anything to do with his arm. If it is rubber position, pitching strategy, etc than I am fine with that, but if they are tweaking to prevent injury it will backfire.

lidspinner
03-09-2010, 11:13 PM
Common Sense

is this the same common sense that told you there was no way that Yonder would not start at 1st base on this team and have votto in LF?

Kings, your in my fav 3 as far as posters on this site....but I think you are stretching things a bit far with this one....Chapman will start for the Reds if they think his arm belongs there....just as Yonder will not force Votto to LF.

BLEEDS
03-10-2010, 10:45 AM
Fay - Jocketty on Chapman's chances

Quote:
“We can’t let one or two outings sway our decisions,” Jocketty said. ”I don’t think our position has changed. We’re still evaluating. Our plan is the same. We’ll put him out there every few days and continue to have Bryan (Price) work on things he’s work on. We’re still trying to address the cultural issues (Chapman) has to deal with. We’ll see how it goes.”

For the rest of the post:
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/201...pmans-chances/


Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor
TRANSLATION:

Don't get your hopes up -- we structured his contract this way for a reason.



Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1

And thank goodness too. The Reds simply cannot afford to enter the Super 2 status situation with Chapman. They would be paying him Arroyo/Harang beginning immediately and control him for 3 years at that cost. Think about it...3 years/$30M or 6 years/$30M (i think or is it 5 years)? They can bring Chapman up in late May. The 5th starter (who admittedly won't be great) will get what, maybe 6 starts? Owings/Maloney/Lehr...someone can do it. If the club is building for the future, then they need to wait on Chapman. As Mike said, 2010 isn't likely to be the year for the Reds anyway.


Sums up my opinions, which seem to be in the vast majority.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

HayPay
03-10-2010, 11:33 AM
Im pretty sure he goes to the minors till the All Star break. They will slowly stretch his arm out over the 1st 3 months and monitor his progress. He will start out throwing 70 to 80 pitch outings I project. This will limit his innings on the year. He hasnt pitched for over a year.
If at the All-Star break the Reds are within 6 or 7 games he can come in with a fresh arm and start giving us 100 pitches per outing.
Its just the way things are in baseball nowadays I cant see the Reds letting this guy go more than 140-150 inn this year.
Look at Joba, Look at Neftali Feliz?

John M

Kingspoint
03-11-2010, 07:43 PM
Right, like FINANCES.

If you think this implies anything about "measuring the affect of workload on his elbow in carefully controlled conditions and performing a series of ongoing medical tests", then I don't know what to tell you.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

FINANCES is EXACTLY (I can use caps, too.) what I'm talking about. It's the investment that they made in him why he WILL BE starting in the minors. My whole point has been about FINANCES.

So, I agree with you that FINANCES will determine where he starts, and in order to protect their investment, they are going to start him in the minors "no matter how well he pitches in Spring Training".

Kingspoint
03-11-2010, 07:47 PM
Half of the people who may "tweak" him probably don't have a clue about the science of the arm and the muscles, I am sure they have never studied anything about Kinesiology and how certain pitches pressure and strain certain parts of the arm/body during delivery. Most of these guys are coaches who played the game and that is what got them into the role they are in. A majority of pitching coaches are great about pitching strategy, pitch types, drills, and routines, but most all of them don't really know much about what causes injuries. Their aspects of proper arm motion and deliveries is usually old school, such as throwing sidearm hurts your elbow, those who said guys like Mark Prior had good mechanics, etc.

When you are talking about a 30 million dollar investment on a lefty that hits 100 with a fluid looking delivery, I don't want any of our so called "experts" tweaking anything to do with his arm. If it is rubber position, pitching strategy, etc than I am fine with that, but if they are tweaking to prevent injury it will backfire.

The Minor League Coaches won't be making the decisions. They will take their order from higher up on how many innnings/pitches and what pitches are thrown by Chapman. He'll be treated like a racehorse.

You buy a new Racehorse from South America and no matter how great he was down there, you don't just pay the Kentucky Derby entry fee and make that his first race. You put him in a series of warmups and watch how he reacts in those races first.

Kingspoint
03-11-2010, 07:52 PM
is this the same common sense that told you there was no way that Yonder would not start at 1st base on this team and have votto in LF?

Kings, your in my fav 3 as far as posters on this site....but I think you are stretching things a bit far with this one....Chapman will start for the Reds if they think his arm belongs there....just as Yonder will not force Votto to LF.

Haypay brought up an interesting point. He hasn't pitched in more than a year he says in his post. I didn't know that. That's an awful long time to be dormant.

That post after yours (in BLEEDS) says that someone thinks that he'll come up at the end of May. That sounds about right....end of May, first week of June. I was never saying that he stays in the Minors. I was only saying that he'll start there so they can get a microscopic look at him under conditions that they control. Once he's in the Majors, he's pretty much under Dusty's control, and that's not a disparaging remark against Dusty in that statement, just that all pitchers are under the manager's control in the Majors to be used as they see fit. They are there to win games.

BLEEDS
03-11-2010, 08:46 PM
NM

BLEEDS
03-11-2010, 08:54 PM
FINANCES is EXACTLY (I can use caps, too.) what I'm talking about. It's the investment that they made in him why he WILL BE starting in the minors. My whole point has been about FINANCES.

So, I agree with you that FINANCES will determine where he starts, and in order to protect their investment, they are going to start him in the minors "no matter how well he pitches in Spring Training".

nice backpedal.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Griffey012
03-11-2010, 09:31 PM
The Minor League Coaches won't be making the decisions. They will take their order from higher up on how many innnings/pitches and what pitches are thrown by Chapman. He'll be treated like a racehorse.

You buy a new Racehorse from South America and no matter how great he was down there, you don't just pay the Kentucky Derby entry fee and make that his first race. You put him in a series of warmups and watch how he reacts in those races first.

I never mentioned anything about pitch counts, innings pitched, or where he begins the season. I thought the topic was about him being under a microscope so the staff could perform "medical tests" and so the staff could "tweak" his mechanics so his arm will last. Either way, I don't trust the major league coaches in this regard anymore than the minor league coaches, they all come from the same coaching pool, what separates the big league coaches from the minor league coaches is results and opportunity. Only a handful of coaches around the leagues probably really understand the physics of the arm/shoulder and how pitching relates to it.


The REDS are going to have to have him throw in the minors under "controlled conditions"; and, then they'll peform ongoing medical tests to see how his arm reacts.


While he's in the minors, they are also going to tweek his mechanics so that his arm lasts through the life of the contract, and so he can get to 210-220 innings on a regular basis without fear of harm to the arm.

Kingspoint
03-11-2010, 09:54 PM
Griffey012, I really didn't mean to make it about that. I was just stating my reason as to how they would go about protecting their huge investment to insure they get the most out of him.

It wasn't a backpedal, BLEEDS.

lidspinner
03-12-2010, 11:48 PM
I see what your saying.....but you know I am going to give you crap for that post of yours about saying Yonder will come up and "force" Votto to LF........Then our GM comes out this spring and says JV isnt going anywhere....its my internet way of saying told ya so....hahah...hope you know I am joking Kings.

Kingspoint
03-13-2010, 04:24 PM
I see what your saying.....but you know I am going to give you crap for that post of yours about saying Yonder will come up and "force" Votto to LF........Then our GM comes out this spring and says JV isnt going anywhere....its my internet way of saying told ya so....hahah...hope you know I am joking Kings.

No problem whatsoever. Always call me on things. That's the only way I can learn.

It was my assumption, possibly a false one, that a team does whatever necessary to get it's best bats in the lineup. I still feel that Alonso is THE BEST bat not currently in the Majors in the REDS' organization. I also still believe that Alonso can't play any position but First Base. I already know that Votto can play Left Field AT LEAST as good as Adam Dunn, and I believe given time, quite a bit better.

Maybe the "psyche" of Votto worries them after what happened last year, and they don't want to take a chance on messing with that now by moving him to Left Field.

BruiserUD
03-14-2010, 10:56 AM
"Tweaking" his mechanics just gives me chills. If he has thrown this way his whole life just leave him be, tweaking the mechanics will probably do more damage than prevent damage. To me his mechanics look pretty fluid and solid, very effortless arm motion.

Remember when the Marlins had a lights out young pitcher named Dontrelle Willis and they decided to "tweak" the mechanics of his delivery? How did that work out?

The kid has been throwing this way his entire life. Medical tests were already done on his shoulder and it has been deemed "pristine". If he has thrown as many innings as rumored in Cuba, using the same mechanics that he does now, you would think he would already have some sort of damage to his arm.

Bottom line...stop micro-managing the kid and just let him throw and see what happens.

K30
03-15-2010, 10:08 AM
Remember when the Marlins had a lights out young pitcher named Dontrelle Willis and they decided to "tweak" the mechanics of his delivery? How did that work out?

The kid has been throwing this way his entire life. Medical tests were already done on his shoulder and it has been deemed "pristine". If he has thrown as many innings as rumored in Cuba, using the same mechanics that he does now, you would think he would already have some sort of damage to his arm.

Bottom line...stop micro-managing the kid and just let him throw and see what happens.

i have to agree with this, we dont want chapman to end up like willis. Let him go and throw the way he has always been throwing.

Kingspoint
03-18-2010, 03:23 AM
From today:

And Chapman showed a new wrinkle.

"He had a nasty sinker, a two-seamer we didn't even know he had," Baker said.


This 100% supports what I've been trying to say, "that the REDS have no idea about Chapman's history".

They didn't even know he had a 2-seamer?

I'm telling you that I'm right that they are going to send him to the minors no matter what in order to monitor his arm, contract or no contract. They are going to have to watch him under several "real conditions" where they can completely control all of the conditions of the game.

Kingspoint
03-18-2010, 03:28 AM
In addition, it was said today:

Chapman threw 118 innings last year in Cuba. Clubs do not like to add too many innings too quickly with young pitchers.

"We haven't put a number on it," Jocketty said. "But we'll watch pitch counts and the stress on his arm. We monitor that with all our pitchers."


Someone said that he shouldn't be "tinkered with". Obviously, that's not true as Chapman admits himself that he's always pitched with several improper mechanics:

"I fixed some of the mechanical problems I had," he said through an interpreter. "My control is not a problem at this moment."

The fixes? "I'm staying taller, finishing my pitches better and not opening up my elbow," he said.

Well, I think the REDS are going to have something to say about their #1 investment by spending 5-6 weeks in the minors examining him and coming up with a plan for his future and what's the best way to "fix the several mechanical problems he developed before being signed to a contract by the REDS".

If they started him in the Majors as a starter right away, they'd have to shut him down by mid-August because he will have pitched too many innings. There's no way in the world that's going to happen.

It's the minor leagues for Chapman in April and May. And, NOT BECAUSE OF HIS CONTRACT, but because of the care they need to take with him arm.

BLEEDS
03-18-2010, 10:50 AM
From today:

And Chapman showed a new wrinkle.

"He had a nasty sinker, a two-seamer we didn't even know he had," Baker said.

This 100% supports what I've been trying to say, "that the REDS have no idea about Chapman's history".

They didn't even know he had a 2-seamer?


Who is "we"? Show me a quote from Bryan Price saying he didn't know Chapman had a sinker. Show me a quote from the catcher saying he didn't call for a sinker to be thrown for that pitch.



I'm telling you that I'm right that they are going to send him to the minors no matter what in order to monitor his arm, contract or no contract. They are going to have to watch him under several "real conditions" where they can completely control all of the conditions of the game.

So what exactly is not "real conditions" in a major league game, where they cannot completely control all of the conditions.


FINANCES is EXACTLY (I can use caps, too.) what I'm talking about...



It's the minor leagues for Chapman in April and May. And, NOT BECAUSE OF HIS CONTRACT,

Waffle much?!?


Someone said that he shouldn't be "tinkered with". Obviously, that's not true as Chapman admits himself that he's always pitched with several improper mechanics:

[I]"I fixed some of the mechanical problems I had," he said through an interpreter. "My control is not a problem at this moment."


He made one small change, by himself, after seeing himself on film for the first time. This was discussed several times in the media, etc.
Hardly translates to him admitting that he has "several" mechanical problems. You are strawmanning this to death.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Caveman Techie
03-18-2010, 11:30 AM
I'm telling you the Sun will rise tomorrow morning. Not because the earth is rotating but because the sun is now orbiting the earth!

Kingspoint this is exactly what you are doing. You are taking what is to be the most likely outcome of the Spring. And then supporting that outcome with wild accusations that unless your name is Walk Jockety or Dusty Baker can be neither proven or disproven. Your opinion on why Chapman will probably start the season in the minors has some merit, but you keep presenting it as though it's fact. It's not a fact, it's an opinion.

BLEEDS
03-18-2010, 11:38 AM
I'm telling you the Sun will rise tomorrow morning. Not because the earth is rotating but because the sun is now orbiting the earth!

Kingspoint this is exactly what you are doing. You are taking what is to be the most likely outcome of the Spring. And then supporting that outcome with wild accusations that unless your name is Walk Jockety or Dusty Baker can be neither proven or disproven. Your opinion on why Chapman will probably start the season in the minors has some merit, but you keep presenting it as though it's fact. It's not a fact, it's an opinion.

Seriously.

I've never seen a guy go out of his way so much to try to support an opinion he made out of thin air.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

krm1580
03-18-2010, 12:10 PM
With everything that has gone on so far I am wondering if Chapman's agents/handlers knew he was better than the intial reports from the WBC and were all over the contract the Reds offered because they figured he would play right away and get to the big time contract sooner.

That being said, my opinion is the Reds should send him to the minors until 6/1 for any reason they can make up. The Reds 5th starter is only scheduled to make 5 starts between opening day and 6/1. If you are telling me by skipping 5 starts I can control the guy at decent money for 5 years vs 3 years its a no brainer.

I will say he is going a long way toward making the decision for the Reds really difficult. If I am Dusty and he has one more dominating start, I pull my catchers aside and say "hey I would not be pissed if you happened to tell the hitters what pitch is coming." Although the way he is throwing even that may not matter;)

Kingspoint
03-18-2010, 03:17 PM
Okay. Okay.

This is sure different than when we used to discuss what kind of weird thing Bob Boone would do on any given day.

Or, when we were trying to project how many wins Lance Davis, Chris Reitsma, Jose Acevedo, Jim Brower and Osvaldo Fernandez would get.

Kingspoint
03-19-2010, 06:02 AM
Who is "we"? Show me a quote from Bryan Price saying he didn't know Chapman had a sinker. Show me a quote from the catcher saying he didn't call for a sinker to be thrown for that pitch.



So what exactly is not "real conditions" in a major league game, where they cannot completely control all of the conditions.





Waffle much?!?



He made one small change, by himself, after seeing himself on film for the first time. This was discussed several times in the media, etc.
Hardly translates to him admitting that he has "several" mechanical problems. You are strawmanning this to death.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Baker said he never knew, and if he never knew the rest of the REDS' brass never knew. Baker gets a scouting report, at the very least on the guy and you better believe is told everything they know about their #1 prospect. C'mon, man. Be real.

And, I NEVER said the #1 reason Chapman's staying in the minors is because of his contract. I didn't even know about "his contract" when I started this thread. I always have and I posted the last thing to prove I was right that the #1 reason he'll be starting in the minors is because they want to protect his arm, which is different from what you say. YOU THINK the #1 reason is financial. I couldn't disagree more. They don't want to turn this guy into a Doc Gooden, where he's Superman for a couple of seasons and then he flames out after five or six seasons turning into an average pitcher and then is washed up by the time he's 26 years old. You get a guy this good, you want to get Greatness out of him for as many years as possible. Give yourself half a dozen years to have an "ACE" and a legitimate chance to win the World Series those years.

They handle him (his arm) right this year and they are legitimate World Series contenders from 2011 through 2016. And that means limiting him to 155 Innings maximum on the year. He stays in the minors until May 31st having his starts spaced out (6 days) and not having him go more than 90 pitches in any of them. Then when he comes up in June, limiting him to 100 pitches on every start and letting him be the 5th Starter so that he can pitch possibly into September, but shutting him down immediately when he reaches 155 innings, no matter how well he's pitching, even if he's shutting everybody out every week.

lidspinner
03-19-2010, 07:36 AM
just thought I would throw due props towards Kings.....at this time I am starting to follow your lead and I see AC not making this team out of ST.....I am not saying ti will be Leake....but it wont be AC....and I will say that IMO, it has everything to do with the contract and nothing to do with performance.

BLEEDS
03-19-2010, 10:49 AM
just thought I would throw due props towards Kings.....at this time I am starting to follow your lead and I see AC not making this team out of ST.....I am not saying ti will be Leake....but it wont be AC....and I will say that IMO, it has everything to do with the contract and nothing to do with performance.

Which is (allegedly) the exact opposite of what Kingspoint is saying. At least sometimes.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
03-19-2010, 11:12 AM
Baker said he never knew, and if he never knew the rest of the REDS' brass never knew. Baker gets a scouting report, at the very least on the guy and you better believe is told everything they know about their #1 prospect. C'mon, man. Be real.

So you're basing your entire opinion on what Dusty Baker said.
Just checking.
He's not the most informed person in the world. He barely knows the names of half his players. I'm sure Price knew he had a sinker, and I bet the catcher did too - he probably gave him the sign to throw it.
The fact that Dusty Baker didn't know he had a sinker - until after he threw it - doesn't surprise me in one bit.

You then strawman that into "we (the Reds) don't know ANYTHING about Chapman's history".
Ridiculous.



And, I NEVER said the #1 reason Chapman's staying in the minors is because of his contract. I didn't even know about "his contract" when I started this thread. I always have and I posted the last thing to prove I was right that the #1 reason he'll be starting in the minors is because they want to protect his arm, which is different from what you say. YOU THINK the #1 reason is financial. I couldn't disagree more.

Okay, again, I'm going to quote - YOU! - these are YOUR Quotes:


FINANCES is EXACTLY (I can use caps, too.) what I'm talking about. It's the investment that they made in him why he WILL BE starting in the minors. My whole point has been about FINANCES.


yes, I know CONTRACT and FINANCES are not the same word. But they are obviously talking about the same thing.

then later:

It's the minor leagues for Chapman in April and May. And, NOT BECAUSE OF HIS CONTRACT, but because of the care they need to take with him arm.

you claim it is so they can monitor his arm, watch him under several "real conditions", and completely control all of the conditions of the game.
For two months?!?! makes no sense.

Also they are going to tweak his mechanics, perform ongoing medical tests.
Yeah. Can only do that in the minors. :confused:

Still no explanation on how this could be done differently in the minors versus the majors. Some would argue that the majors are "more real" conditions, and also that he'd have more support from the Latin players, etc...
"Completely control the conditions of the game" - what does that even mean? Last time I checked the minor leagues are still trying to win games, and play under "real conditions".

So basically it comes down to your asertion that they are trying to limit his innings/starts. You can limit his innings/starts in Cincinnati too.


He will start the season in the minors, to keep his contract from accelerating, period. He could pitch shut-outs the rest of the Spring, and he'd still start there.
It has NOTHING to do with monitoring his arm.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kingspoint
03-19-2010, 08:03 PM
So you're basing your entire opinion on what Dusty Baker said.


No. I'm basing it on what I think of Walt Jockety and what I think is best for Chapman. I think Jockety would agree with me. Just thought it was interesting what Baker said....shocked, actually.

It doesn't really matter, though, does it? That contract was done specifically so that they wouldn't be bringing him up before June 1st, anyway.

BLEEDS
03-19-2010, 10:08 PM
No. I'm basing it on what I think of Walt Jockety and what I think is best for Chapman. I think Jockety would agree with me. Just thought it was interesting what Baker said....shocked, actually.

It doesn't really matter, though, does it? That contract was done specifically so that they wouldn't be bringing him up before June 1st, anyway.

Exactly. Which is the exact opposite and point of this thread you started. :D

It's okay, you can admit when you're wrong, no biggy.

It's a contract thing, IT is the only reason you need to know why Chapman will start the year in the Minors, not what you speculated. IMO, of course.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Vottomatic
03-21-2010, 11:54 AM
Boys, boys, boys. Can't we all be friends? ;)

I think he should go to the minors for exactly the fact that the 5th starter only has 5 starts between Opening Day and June 1st.

I expect him to dominate the minors, and the club WILL BRING HIM UP around June 1 because of the attendance boost it will give them. $$$$ and not to mention hopefully the dominance it will give them.

But until June 1.........he needs the work.

NorrisHopper30
03-21-2010, 02:22 PM
He will be in the minors till June 1st.

Kingspoint
06-02-2010, 04:31 AM
Now that June is here, thought it would be a good time to "top" this thread.

I'm not saying I was right or anyone was wrong or anything like that, especially since the thread had a lot of good information in it so we could all understand the situation better. I learned an awful lot from everyone's input. (That's why I look at Redszone.)

Now that June is here, that "monetary clause" is out of the way.

12 weeks later, I now think they're going to wait until an Opening creates itself, and that might not happen if Harang stays and there aren't any more injuries other than Bailey's, who should be back June 8th. If LeCure proves himself Wednesday against the Cardinals, there doesn't seem to be any reason for him not to get another chance when the first need for a Starter comes up again. Chapman could stay in AAA the rest of the AAA season, which would only mean good things for the REDS (they're getting the Starting pitching).

Hindsight now shows that Chapman was never ready to Start in the Majors. Last night's performance was the first all year where he showed the ability to pitch in the Majors. A great performance by Chapman last night. He keeps pitching like this and he'll force a move (Harang) by the REDS.

Kingspoint
06-02-2010, 04:41 AM
I see what your saying.....but you know I am going to give you crap for that post of yours about saying Yonder will come up and "force" Votto to LF........Then our GM comes out this spring and says JV isnt going anywhere....its my internet way of saying told ya so....hahah...hope you know I am joking Kings.

BTW, Yonder's going to have to have one heck of a June to get to the Majors by July 9th. Looks like Yonder's staying in AAA for the rest of the AAA season, or September 1st, whichever the REDS deem best for the team and him.

I missed that prediction.

Kingspoint
06-02-2010, 05:00 AM
Blurb Tuesday Night from, CincinnatiReds.com:

While he is pitching well and boasts a 5-2 record with a 3.42 ERA, Bats pitching coach Ted Power continues to refine his mechanics.

Improving balance and not falling off to the side too soon is something Power said can go a long way towards becoming more consistent with command. "Because when he first started here with us, he was falling off to third base really heavily, which means his balance was not good."

The adjustments Chapman has had to make are wide-ranging and sometimes easy to overlook. From backing up first base to knowing what to do with bunts, Chapman has received a crash course in fundamentals often not emphasized in his previous baseball experiences.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100601&content_id=10689498&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Kingspoint
06-02-2010, 05:03 AM
When will he come to the Majors?

Also Tuesday Night from, "CincinnatiReds.com":

It's unknown when Chapman will finally make the much-hyped jump to the big leagues. "In my opinion, we've got a couple pitchers who are much more ready to go to the big leagues. We sent Sam LeCure last time," Sweet said. "He could go. But is he ready to really go up there? No. That's why he's still here."

"When we determine he's ready, I'm sure everybody is going to be wanting to get him up there, and we have people come through regularly, our scouts and coordinators and not just to see him, to see all the pitchers. And they all agree. He's getting better, but he's got a ways to go."

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100601&content_id=10689498&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

texasdave
06-02-2010, 06:08 AM
Improving balance and not falling off to the side too soon is something Power said can go a long way towards becoming more consistent with command. "Because when he first started here with us, he was falling off to third base really heavily, which means his balance was not good."

At times Johnny Cueto falls off to the first base side. Seems like that would be an easy fix, but I guess not.

Mr Larkin
06-02-2010, 10:35 AM
Who would have thought that at June 1 we would not "need" him. There really is not a place for him. If Bailey comes back at the end of his 15 days strong and ready and the other four continue to be effective, then Chapman can remain in AAA and get much needed expereince. The only reason to bring him up would be if he was needed and he isn't at this point, at least as a starter.

bubbachunk
06-02-2010, 10:49 AM
At times Johnny Cueto falls off to the first base side. Seems like that would be an easy fix, but I guess not.

It is all muscle memory and focus. When young guys get tired or lose some of their focus they revert back to bad habits, although not intentionally.

BigJohn
06-02-2010, 01:31 PM
We could have used him last night in the 7th and 8th inning though!!
As long as he isn't walking guys he could be a great middle relief/set up guy.

defender
06-02-2010, 02:10 PM
Now that Chapman has avoided super two status, there is no difference in bringing him up now, or the begining of next year. I think the Reds would be smart to bring him up to pitch out of the pen. Unless of course, they think there is a chance he will start 2011 in AAA.

aceace
06-02-2010, 02:53 PM
I expect Chapman to get a spot start soon (in June), if Lecure has a bad outing (against St Louis) he may go back down and Chapman could see a start followed by Bailey.

lidspinner
06-02-2010, 05:48 PM
anyone think about bringing Chapman up at the latest possible day...the day playoff rosters are set? I say this "if" the Reds dont really need him.....be bringing him up late you dont give opposing teams a good look at him.....sometimes it always seems flamethrowers do well until they have pitched a few rounds and all teams have a good book on said pitcher. what say ye all?

Roush's socks
06-03-2010, 02:26 AM
Who would have thought that at June 1 we would not "need" him. There really is not a place for him. If Bailey comes back at the end of his 15 days strong and ready and the other four continue to be effective, then Chapman can remain in AAA and get much needed expereince. The only reason to bring him up would be if he was needed and he isn't at this point, at least as a starter.

The Reds have Chapman, Volquez, Lecure, Wood, and Maloney in the wings, but no room for even one of them. IMO they will need to evaluate their talent and make some moves. If Maloney and Wood are never going to get a shot, at least one should be traded for younger, high-ceiling prospects, or maybe a reliable middle reliever.

Quatitos
06-03-2010, 02:59 AM
Now that Chapman has avoided super two status, there is no difference in bringing him up now, or the begining of next year. I think the Reds would be smart to bring him up to pitch out of the pen. Unless of course, they think there is a chance he will start 2011 in AAA.
You do not bring Chapman up into the pen until he has gotten a large number of innings starting in the minors. At least if you want him to be in the majors next year without much of an innings limit on him. If you bring him up to the bullpen before he has gotten at least 100+ innings starting down in AAA then he will have a much lower innings cap on him next season.

The less innings he gets in pitching this year (under his inning cap area which is probably ~130-150 based on his workload in cuba), then the more times he gets skipped/earlier he gets shut down next year.

I am not a big believer of the Verducci Effect (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php?search=verducci+effect), but I do believe you want to not have a pitcher go from 100 IP to 170 or 200. If you brought Chapman up anytime this month, and put him in the bullpen, then he would be limited to around 100 innings for this year. This is definitely not in his or the clubs interest for the next couple years if we want to use him as a starter.

Now once he gets up into the 100-120 IP region, then by all means, if he is needed in the bullpen then bring him up. If we could bring him up like David Price, getting his work in AAA and bringing him up for the bullpen in time for the playoff roster, that would probably be optimal.

BLEEDS
06-03-2010, 04:02 PM
BTW, Yonder's going to have to have one heck of a June to get to the Majors by July 9th. Looks like Yonder's staying in AAA for the rest of the AAA season, or September 1st, whichever the REDS deem best for the team and him.

I missed that prediction.

I like pizza!

can't wait for u to pay up!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

lidspinner
06-03-2010, 04:33 PM
i know this thread is about chapman, but i gotta ask Kings a question about Yonder.....what is/was it about Yonder that made you think he was so good or would be up here so fast?

I ask the question with the utmost respect. not knocking your prediction or opinion at all...I have seen him several times now in person and not once has he made me think he was a MLB caliber player......he appears to me as a guy who benefited greatly by aluminum bats. Thats just my opinion. He appeard to me as nothing more than a lifer minor player.....NOW, he is still young and can still change many of opinions, he could still end up being the best Red of all time.....just wondering Kings....since the Reds drafted him you have been singing his praises and I just was wondering what it was that you seen/saw in him.

Kingspoint
06-04-2010, 12:25 AM
i know this thread is about chapman, but i gotta ask Kings a question about Yonder.....what is/was it about Yonder that made you think he was so good or would be up here so fast?



#1 is his approach to his at-bats. Not Dunn-like where he lets a great pitch go by and then strike out later, but ends up with an overall very good OPS, but he'll do whatever's needed based upon the circumstance....almost anti-Dunn.

#2 is his swing. He just makes contact most of the time.

He had the injury last year and that basically cost him half the season, which he didn't have time to give up anyway. This year he's been asked to go play a position he shouldn't be playing (because Votto won't be moved off of 1st Base even though Votto could play Left Field a whole heck of a lot better than Adam Dunn). Votto's turned out to be a great fielder at 1st Base, so that's probably a good thing to leave him there.

Alonso really needs to just reach the Majors and then get traded. We'll get more for him after he reaches the Majors then we will right now. A "good" proven player will garner more in a trade than a "good" prospect.

Anyway, I love his swing and his clutchness with the bat.

He's an RBI-machine. He'll approach 1000 RBI's in his Major League career. I'll be shocked if he gets 600 or less.

To put things in perspective, Eric Davis had 934 RBI's in his 17 seasons.