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UPRedsFan
03-11-2010, 09:49 AM
Reading the article about Leake got me thinking.

It's early but if he keeps this up, he may very well land the 5th spot. He seems to have that intangible going for him that he knows how to pitch and get people out with location. Sort of a Greg Maddux quality. Not overpowering stuff like Bailey, Cueto, and Chapman. But he just might be able to hold his own especially with the improved infield defense and the amount of ground balls he throws. He's flying under the radar with all the focus on Strasburg and Chapman, but he just may outperform them both because he's more of a pitcher at a young age. I'm pulling for him to be
the 5th starter. That may be the best possible scenario for the staff if Leake comes out on top. It let's Chapman continue to work on control with his off speed stuff in AAA until a trade is made or someone comes down with an injury. and it positions a control type ground ball pitcher after a power pitcher in the rotation to mix things up.

Harang
Cueto
Arroyo
Bailey
Leake

with Chapman as the first alternate from AAA.

This team should contend with that starting pitching. Imagine Chapman out of the pen in the playoffs!

GIDP
03-11-2010, 10:15 AM
I'm firmly on the Leake bandwagon. He basically was the best college pitcher in last years draft and has better stuff than people are willing to admit.

I expect Maloney to get every chance to win that 5th spot though. Bump some trade value for Maloney in the process.

JKam
03-11-2010, 11:33 AM
At this point, Wood is looking good too. So you have some nice options for the fifth starter with Wood, Chapman and Leake. Maloney might be in the conversation too. It is still early in Spring Training, but if all four of these guys keep it up, 1) Owings is probably going to be coming out of the pen and 2) it is going to be a tough decision for the front office.

Griffey012
03-11-2010, 12:09 PM
I am hoping Leake and Wood both keep pitching great like they have been. If they do then I am pulling for Wood to get the 5th spot. Get him in and see how he does before its too late and never gets the chance when Leake and Chapman take over. I think he can be very solid for us. And Leake could use part of a season in AAA.

Chris Sabowned
03-11-2010, 02:36 PM
I'd like for Leake to get more than a couple of months in his minor league career under his belt before hes brought up to Cincy. I would go with Wood first then maybe give Leake a shot in a couple more months if he's doing well.

BLEEDS
03-11-2010, 02:45 PM
I called it right after we drafted him. I followed him and saw him pitch in the CWS.

Some people told me I was crazy, but I said he could EASILY be in the starting rotation in 2010. He's that polished. Not fancy or "crazy stuff" but control and 4 plus pitches.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

bounty37h
03-11-2010, 02:46 PM
I was very impressed with Leake during his college careers, one of the best college pitchers I have ever seen. I like the problem our staff/FO has in front of them, the talent they have to choose from, a good problem to have!!!!

RedLakerFan24
03-11-2010, 05:00 PM
yeah i saw him pitch agaisnt the angels and he looked impressive

UPRedsFan
03-11-2010, 05:01 PM
I called it right after we drafted him. I followed him and saw him pitch in the CWS.

Some people told me I was crazy, but I said he could EASILY be in the starting rotation in 2010. He's that polished. Not fancy or "crazy stuff" but control and 4 plus pitches.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

This is what I'm saying too. How much development time does he need if he already has control of 4 pitches and has a good mental approach to pitching? He could surprise.

Vottomatic
03-11-2010, 05:39 PM
I can't remember when the Reds last had this many major league quality starting pitching options. What a breathe of fresh air.

MBZags
03-11-2010, 07:33 PM
I honestly don't see it, though anything is obviously possible. I just don't think the Reds will rush Leake to the majors, especially when they have other options with much more professional experience (e.g. Matt Maloney).

With Chapman, there is definitely a sense of urgency to get him to the majors. The Reds handed out a large contract and with all the hype he is generating, fans will want to see him sooner than later. On ESPN, one Reds source told one of the talking heads that the Reds are inclined to push Chapman to the majors to get more fans in the seats, especially after all these losing seasons. Although Leake is an excellent prospect, there's nowhere near the hype or urgency with him as there is with Chapman. Even if Leake blows everyone away in spring training, I still see him spending at least a couple months in the minors.

BLEEDS
03-11-2010, 10:44 PM
I honestly don't see it, though anything is obviously possible. I just don't think the Reds will rush Leake to the majors, especially when they have other options with much more professional experience (e.g. Matt Maloney).

With Chapman, there is definitely a sense of urgency to get him to the majors. The Reds handed out a large contract and with all the hype he is generating, fans will want to see him sooner than later. On ESPN, one Reds source told one of the talking heads that the Reds are inclined to push Chapman to the majors to get more fans in the seats, especially after all these losing seasons. Although Leake is an excellent prospect, there's nowhere near the hype or urgency with him as there is with Chapman. Even if Leake blows everyone away in spring training, I still see him spending at least a couple months in the minors.

This couldn't be more backwards, IMO.

Chapman - purely by contract considerations alone, will not be up before June.

I'm saying Leake can WIN the #5 starter this Spring. Heck, I thought he could have joined the rotation last August, but his arm was a bit tired so they shut him down.
Nobody is RUSHING Leake. He's major league ready stuff-wise, and his control is top-notch. Many many people said he was the most polished pitcher in last years draft.

Maloney still needs work IMO, and didn't look good at all in his last outing. He's more of a fly ball guy whereas Leake is more of a groundball guy. Tell me which one plays better in GABP?
I think Maloney would play better in a bigger fly-ball friendly AL club personally.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Zimmers
03-11-2010, 11:37 PM
How nice is it to be having this discussion? Seems like yesterday we had kip wells, ramon ortiz, the lizzard competing for three spots. Now we haue chapman, wood, leake amd many others just 4 the 5 spot! If volquez wasnt hurt there wouldnt even have been room for any of them. Bailey wouldnt have got his extended look and let him grow into the pitcher we are now seeing. Its exciting and a great problem to have.

gedred69
03-11-2010, 11:39 PM
I called it right after we drafted him. I followed him and saw him pitch in the CWS.

Some people told me I was crazy, but I said he could EASILY be in the starting rotation in 2010. He's that polished. Not fancy or "crazy stuff" but control and 4 plus pitches.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kinda' like, Arroyo, eh? Just finds a way to throw 200+ Innings, and win 15 or more games? I'll take that, especially if he doesn't wait until to July to get sharp. Then, it might be more like 17+ wins.

MBZags
03-12-2010, 06:01 PM
This couldn't be more backwards, IMO.

Chapman - purely by contract considerations alone, will not be up before June.

I'm saying Leake can WIN the #5 starter this Spring. Heck, I thought he could have joined the rotation last August, but his arm was a bit tired so they shut him down.
Nobody is RUSHING Leake. He's major league ready stuff-wise, and his control is top-notch. Many many people said he was the most polished pitcher in last years draft.

Maloney still needs work IMO, and didn't look good at all in his last outing. He's more of a fly ball guy whereas Leake is more of a groundball guy. Tell me which one plays better in GABP?
I think Maloney would play better in a bigger fly-ball friendly AL club personally.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

My point is more that of the two pitchers, Chapman stands the better chance of breaking camp with the team. I'm not saying he will, though.

I think taking a college pitcher and putting him practically straight in the majors is rushing him. Virtually no one makes that big of a step, and the Reds really don't need to when they have other serviceable pitchers for the fifth spot. After all, most, if not all, fans will not cry foul if Leake doesn't start in the majors. Some will, though, if Chapman starts in AA or AAA. Plus, why give Leake the job and start his clock now, when the Reds don't even know how he'll do against MLB talent? I, and likely the Reds too, would at least like to see how Leake's stuff translates against professional talent, and spring training is not the place to make that judgment. Baseball America even said that he has little margin for error when pitching. Because of Chapman's potential 100 mph fastball and the rest of his repertoire, he has more room for error at the MLB level.

Of course, the lack of experience against professional hitting is the same problem with Chapman. Also, putting him straight in the majors can be seen as rushing him, too. However, like I said, the Reds know he has the electric stuff needed to get MLB hitters out. Granted, he isn't as polished as Leake when it comes to command. Thus, Chapman may not be ready, and he may not start in the majors, either. That being said, the Reds certainly feel more pressure from fans/media/potential ticket sales to justify Chapman (and his contract) than to justify Leake, which could accelerate the former's path to the majors. I'm not saying it's fair, but I just think that's how the Reds will handle Chapman. Of the two, I just see Chapman making the majors first. I agree, though, that it's a mistake to start Chapman in the majors if the report from Jeff Passan about Chapman's contract is correct.

Maloney pitched well enough down the stretch last season that the Reds are going to give him a very hard look in spring training. He's a serviceable 5th starter who has proven he can get MLB hitters out. Alluding to Dusty's comments earlier in the spring, it seems like the Reds value experience over young talent when making roster decisions. Moreover, Maloney also seems to have enough "stuff" to get by in the majors. Although his style may not be conducive to GABP, I don't think that's going to stop the Reds from using him. Both Bill James and CHONE project Maloney to have around a 4.50 ERA next season, a number that I'll take any day of the week from a fifth starter. These projections are fallible, to be sure, but Maloney is decent enough to at least begin the season as the team's fifth starter.

Vottomatic
03-13-2010, 08:59 AM
Glad we got so many options since Harang and Arroyo will be gone after this season.

Cueto
Bailey
Leake
Volquez
Chapman

Maloney
Wood
Lehr

JKam
03-13-2010, 11:59 AM
I think it is going to be pretty cool to see Bailey, Chapman and Volquez throwing major heat and then bring in someone like Herrara throwing junk at 70mph. And then bring in Cordero to throw heat again.

lidspinner
03-13-2010, 03:04 PM
not sure if I ever have been this excited about a Reds pitching staff in my liffe....I remember just back 6-8 years ago when all the talk around the league was how bad our staff was from A-AAA to the Reds....now it looks like we could have a few MLB ready pitchers pitching in the minors for a while.....I am not even sure there is another team that can say that.

Lets just hope our hitting keeps us close.....

UPRedsFan
03-13-2010, 03:52 PM
Glad we got so many options since Harang and Arroyo will be gone after this season.

Cueto
Bailey
Leake
Volquez
Chapman

Maloney
Wood
Lehr

UPRedsFan
03-13-2010, 03:55 PM
So mesmerized by that rotation I forgot to post.

That is a World Series caliber rotation right there. I see them cracking the playoffs in 2010 and then mowing everyone down in 2011 when Volquez is back.

UPRedsFan
03-15-2010, 08:57 PM
Leake - 2 more scoreless innings today with 4 K's.

I know it was 2 late innings so he was facing minor league hitters most likely, but that along with the AFL performance just shows how he will dominate at AAA. I'd like to see him get Lincoln's next start and let him go 3 or 4 innings against major leaguers.

Vottomatic
03-15-2010, 09:30 PM
Me too.

I guess they will let Bronson walk no matter what after this season. I kinda like Bronson and his rubber arm.

Jefferson24
03-15-2010, 10:38 PM
Me too.

I guess they will let Bronson walk no matter what after this season. I kinda like Bronson and his rubber arm.


Question is who are you going to sit next year to let Bronson pitch? The kids in this organization are so gifted that your going to have to let them play. I suspect in a year or two it will be like, Bronson who?

BLEEDS
03-15-2010, 11:15 PM
I'd for sure let Harang go - in fact I'd look to trade him at the ASB, whether we are in contention or not. Leake, Chapman, Wood; any one of them should be ready by then.

Arroyo, I don't know. $11M for 200+ IP guaranteed, ERA somewhere in the low 4.xx. I'd opt to keep him if I had my druthers. I think a lot of it depends on how Volquez comes back. Unless they can assure me they are going to spend it at catcher or SS, I'm not sure what we're going to do with any payflex. It would be beyond nice to have one veteran in there who you know can go every 5th day no matter what.

We sure do have a ton of pitching at this point. Man, we need to look at some trades to get some reliable offense on this roster!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Vottomatic
03-15-2010, 11:49 PM
Yeah, with the likes of the following, I guess I won't miss Arroyo:

Cueto
Bailey
Chapman
Leake
Wood
Maloney
Lehr

I suspect Harang, Arroyo, and Owings will all be gone at the ASB if we're out of contention and the young guys are showing positive signs. We'll probably trade them for more young pitching. ;)

UPRedsFan
03-16-2010, 02:02 PM
I'd for sure let Harang go - in fact I'd look to trade him at the ASB, whether we are in contention or not. Leake, Chapman, Wood; any one of them should be ready by then.

Arroyo, I don't know. $11M for 200+ IP guaranteed, ERA somewhere in the low 4.xx. I'd opt to keep him if I had my druthers. I think a lot of it depends on how Volquez comes back. Unless they can assure me they are going to spend it at catcher or SS, I'm not sure what we're going to do with any payflex. It would be beyond nice to have one veteran in there who you know can go every 5th day no matter what.

We sure do have a ton of pitching at this point. Man, we need to look at some trades to get some reliable offense on this roster!

PEACE

-BLEEDS
Maybe it's a couple years early but they would use the pay flex to lock up Votto, Bruce, Cueto and Bailey. They would hit free agency after 2012 or 2013?

BLEEDS
03-16-2010, 02:30 PM
Maybe it's a couple years early but they would use the pay flex to lock up Votto, Bruce, Cueto and Bailey. They would hit free agency after 2012 or 2013?

Good point. I think Votto, Cueto, Owings and Burton are the only ones up for Arbitration after 2010 - and I don't think we need to worry about Owings and Burton much.
Bruce and Bailey aren't scheduled to be eligible until after 2011, along with Volquez.

That would make the first group eligible for free agency after 2014, and the second 2015. But I know what you are saying, if they continue to develop on schedule we'll probably want to lock them up long-term and buy-out some of the arbitration/FA years in the process.

Even on the high-end if you figure $4-6M for the first couple years of Arbitration for the guys mentioned above, we are still scheduled to be at only about $48M going into 2011 - and that is with BP's $11M and Cordero's $12M figured in. That's a good $25M+ of payflex.

Then entering 2012 we have another $23M freed up if we let BP and Cordero walk. Scheduled payroll looks to be only $40M or so in 2012 with the current crop. That is A LOT of payflex - especially if we are starting to win and can easily support an $80-85M payroll.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

krm1580
03-16-2010, 02:37 PM
I know it is never fun discuss contracts, but to maximize the value of our pitching assets, it is my hope that Chapman or Leake do not see the majors until June at the absolute earliest.

The fact of the matter is, barring injuries, they are going to be the 5th starter. By my calculations our 5th starter is only slated to make 5 starts combined in April and May. I can't see pitching that infrequently benefitting either one of them and I don't like the idea of risking Super 2 status and its financial ramifications simply for 5 starts.

Next year the Reds with the 3 & 4 starter slots being available, I would love them to get a full year of development and step in.

I realize it is extremely rare for every one of these guys to develop to their ceiling and avoid injuries but I think a rotation of Bailey, Cueto, Chapman, Leake & Wood or Volquez has the potential to be the best pitch rotation the Reds have had, dare I say EVER.

BLEEDS
03-16-2010, 03:21 PM
I know it is never fun discuss contracts, but to maximize the value of our pitching assets, it is my hope that Chapman or Leake do not see the majors until June at the absolute earliest.

The fact of the matter is, barring injuries, they are going to be the 5th starter. By my calculations our 5th starter is only slated to make 5 starts combined in April and May. I can't see pitching that infrequently benefitting either one of them and I don't like the idea of risking Super 2 status and its financial ramifications simply for 5 starts.

Oh, you know that is DEFINITELY on the minds of the brass.

Although, they did let Cueto start his first season out of the gate two years ago... (he has 2.00000 years of service), he won't be a super2, he'll have 3.0 years of service after this year and be eligible for arbitration.

Maloney has the upper hand IMO based on this type of thought process. He's already got his service clock started, and he doesn't project to have as much production as these guys, so we can afford to get him to Arb early since a) we don't expect to pay too much if we do take him to arb, and b) he probably doesn't fit into our long-term plans anyways, so we might opt to let him leave.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

RedLakerFan24
03-16-2010, 03:36 PM
I Would trade both players to get something in return, but our future rotation looks mighty good

Cueto
Chapman
Volquez
Leake
Bailey

Kingspoint
04-03-2010, 12:25 AM
Congratulations, Mike Leake!

muddie
04-03-2010, 07:04 AM
I'm very disappointed for Travis Wood and would have taken him north if it were my decision. This has to be a difficult situation for him. He pitched well in spring and has already been a MiLB Pitcher of the Year and doesn't make the cut.

BLEEDS
04-03-2010, 11:11 AM
I'm very disappointed for Travis Wood and would have taken him north if it were my decision. This has to be a difficult situation for him. He pitched well in spring and has already been a MiLB Pitcher of the Year and doesn't make the cut.

He's still only got 48 innings in AAA. I think he'll do fine with pitching every 5th day in Lousville.

He isn't very efficient, and walks a lot of people. Leake goes fast doesn't waste any time, and induces lots of ground balls with his late movement in the zone. Much better pitcher for GABP in that regard.

If anything, I'm surprised they gave up on Maloney that fast, he looked pretty good in his last stint in the bigs last year. He's a fly-ball pitcher though, which again doesn't bode well for GABP.

I'm happy for Leake, I think he deserved it.
This is probably 95-99% of what he's ever going to be, so might as well use him now.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Vottomatic
04-03-2010, 02:09 PM
Wood will be in the rotation some day.

I still scratch my head in disbelief at how the Reds went from minimal starting pitching to an overabundance. Remarkable.

Arroyo, Harang, Cueto, Bailey, Owings, Lehr, Volquez, Maloney, Wood, Leake......flat out amazing. Harang will definitely be gone after this season, unless he has an amazing year, which I don't see happening.

GIDP
04-03-2010, 02:12 PM
Wood will be in the rotation some day.

I still scratch my head in disbelief at how the Reds went from minimal starting pitching to an overabundance. Remarkable.

Arroyo, Harang, Cueto, Bailey, Owings, Lehr, Volquez, Maloney, Wood, Leake......flat out amazing. Harang will definitely be gone after this season, unless he has an amazing year, which I don't see happening.

I see Harang resigning for cheaper and Arroyo being gone.

malcontent
04-03-2010, 07:12 PM
I guess they will let Bronson walk no matter what after this season. I kinda like Bronson and his rubber arm.

I really hope they re-sign Arroyo. I love to watch him pitch (and hate to watch Harang). Last year finally convinced me of Arroyo's value.

Red in Atl
04-03-2010, 07:41 PM
Wood will be in the rotation some day.

I still scratch my head in disbelief at how the Reds went from minimal starting pitching to an overabundance. Remarkable.

Arroyo, Harang, Cueto, Bailey, Owings, Lehr, Volquez, Maloney, Wood, Leake......flat out amazing. Harang will definitely be gone after this season, unless he has an amazing year, which I don't see happening.

Exactly...

and I totally believe, given the chance, that Lehr would be a winning pitcher in this league...but who would want him over Leake, Wood, Chapman, Maloney even maybe...wow.

They need to be thinking about doing some trading and stocking up again at the A and AA level with some of the guys they have right now.