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REDblooded
03-15-2010, 04:54 PM
http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/108369/dustybakerut4.jpg

westofyou
03-15-2010, 05:04 PM
7000 MLB ab's an OPS + of 116 and this is what his legacy is?

Not for me... but ya'll have fun.

pedro
03-15-2010, 05:12 PM
Dusty walked 762 times in his MLB career and had an OBP .069 higher than his BA and yet he gets treated by folks around here as if he advocates everyone hacking like Jeff Francuer.

Sad.

TRF
03-15-2010, 05:14 PM
7000 MLB ab's an OPS + of 116 and this is what his legacy is?

Not for me... but ya'll have fun.

oh woy...

really you could have plugged in any manager's pic there. it was light hearted. Baker was a great player and he has a long legacy to be proud of. And as a manager of people, the Reds haven't seen his like since Sparky.

I hate that he gets a little locked in when it comes to lineups, and i do think he prefers vets playing over kids, but he sure seems to have a real handle on how to teach those kids. He's a fascinating person, and I think there is a book in him someday.

westofyou
03-15-2010, 05:17 PM
Sparkey didn't have a HS education, and was very prone to saying loads of stupid stuff.

Lighthearted?

Nah, he's the team punching bag, day in and day out.

membengal
03-15-2010, 05:27 PM
That's pretty old. I first saw that maybe a year ago.

REDblooded
03-15-2010, 05:31 PM
That's pretty old. I first saw that maybe a year ago.

Yeah... Just saw it for the first time on a Cards message board today... Thought it was innocent and funny... Forgot that this was the serious club.

TRF
03-15-2010, 05:34 PM
Sparkey didn't have a HS education, and was very prone to saying loads of stupid stuff.

Lighthearted?

Nah, he's the team punching bag, day in and day out.

I agree on the saying of stupid stuff. Dusty does it all the time too. I meant how they handle players internally. both have been raved about for that.

Dusty may be the team punching bag, but every manager is to an extent. Reds managers especially. McKeon was destroyed by reds fans and all he did was win there.

Far East
03-15-2010, 05:59 PM
... McKeon was destroyed by reds fans and all he did was win there.

Jack made me cringe with his references to -- and apparent reliance upon -- luck and fate.

I'm paraphrasing, but he said things like:

"I pinch hit that guy because he was overdue."

"If we could just catch a break here and there."

"He's 0 for 12 against this pitcher; the odds were in his favor."

"Pokey's my good luck charm."

CesarGeronimo
03-15-2010, 06:04 PM
This chart exaggerates and oversimplifies but I'd still argue that it does a pretty good job of describing Dusty's offensive philosophy as a manager here and now, though not as a player in the late 60s through mid-80s.

If you pay attention every day over a period of years to which players he favors and how he manages games, his preference for hitters with higher batting averages over hitters with higher on base percentages is very clear. Dusty wants aggressive hitters who can run and those he perceives as being good with men on base. He doesn't value patient hitters who get on base more often and who make pitchers throw more pitches. That's not some crazy statement he makes to the media here and there, in my opinion, it's how he manages and how he talks about players every day.

westofyou
03-15-2010, 06:17 PM
If you pay attention every day over a period of years to which players he favors and how he manages games, his preference for hitters with higher batting averages over hitters with higher on base percentages is very clear.


Batting average is a part of ob%.

I saw Dusty manage every year in SF, up close and personal, ya know what Dusty likes?

Guys like Jeff Kent, Bill Mueller, JT Snow and Ellis Burkes, guys that hit the ball and can take a walk, guys who are agressive with balls in the zone and guys that know when to lay off the balls out of the zone. The one place he gives up that type of player on a regular basis is teh gusy who play skilled defensive positions, there is where Dusty throws the batting skills aside more often than not.

REDblooded
03-15-2010, 07:55 PM
Batting average is a part of ob%.

I saw Dusty manage every year in SF, up close and personal, ya know what Dusty likes?

Guys like Jeff Kent, Bill Mueller, JT Snow and Ellis Burkes, guys that hit the ball and can take a walk, guys who are agressive with balls in the zone and guys that know when to lay off the balls out of the zone. The one place he gives up that type of player on a regular basis is teh gusy who play skilled defensive positions, there is where Dusty throws the batting skills aside more often than not.

Which explains why he loves Stubbs so much (as do I)...

IowaRed
03-15-2010, 08:36 PM
old yes, exaggerated yes, some truth to it......absolutely

jojo
03-15-2010, 08:41 PM
Dusty is universally loved compared to some of his recent predecessors...

BoydsOfSummer
03-15-2010, 08:50 PM
Dusty is universally loved compared to some of his recent predecessors...


Not by me. I think it's hilarious.

pedro
03-16-2010, 12:35 AM
The negative aspect of Francisco's game has always been an alarming strikeout rate. He walked just 24 times in the Minors last season compared to 115 strikeouts. Since beginning in the organization in 2005, he's walked 86 times, with 468 strikeouts.

"We still have to work on him a little bit because he's extremely aggressive," Reds manager Dusty Baker said. "We have to work on him as far as pitch selection. [Opposing pitchers] are starting to go out of the [strike] zone on him. You get a reputation and that's what they're going to do. I'm very confident he'll make the adjustment."

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100315&content_id=8802204&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin&partnerId=rss_cin

Mario-Rijo
03-16-2010, 02:57 AM
I think it's pretty clear what Dusty thinks and he indeed believes that walks are overrated. How much is the only real question. But if you can't run he doesn't want you taking a walk, how that makes any sense is anyones guess but it's definitely not a wise thought. I'm with him to some extent like in this 1st part but then he goes off the deep end.


ďIím big on driving in runs and scoring runs,Ē Baker said. ďGuys in the middle should score about close to equal to what they drive in. On-base percentage, thatís fine and dandy. But a lot of times guys get so much into on-base percentage that they cease to swing. Itís becoming a little bit out of control.Ē

And from a different piece....


ďNo. 1, Iíve let most guys hit 3-0 (in the count). Thatís one reason. . . . I think walks are overrated unless you can run. If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps, but the guy who walks and canít run, most of the time heís clogging up the bases for somebody who can run.Ē


ďWho have been the champions the last seven, eight years? Have you ever heard the Yankees talk about on-base percentage and walks? . . . Walks help. They do help. But you arenít going to walk across the plate, youíre going to hit across the plate. Thatís the school I come from.Ē


ďEverybody canít hit with two strikes, everybody canít walk,Ē Baker said. ďYouíre taking away some of the aggressiveness of a kid if youíre telling him to go up there and try to work for a walk. . . . Itís like when I see kids in Little League and they make the small kids go up there and try to get a walk. Thatís not any fun. . . . Do you ever see the top 10 walking (rankings)? You see top 10 batting average. A lot of those top 10 do walk, but the name of the game is to hit.Ē

http://www.cubschronicle.com/wp/posts/2004/03/10/dusty-baker-on-walks/

GAC
03-16-2010, 05:11 AM
Dusty walked 762 times in his MLB career and had an OBP .069 higher than his BA and yet he gets treated by folks around here as if he advocates everyone hacking like Jeff Francuer.

Sad.

Very true pedro. And woy stated that all managers say stupid things, and Dusty is no different. Again very true. So that shouldn't really be held against Dusty to the degree it has been.

Now Dusty catches a lot of grief, and I'm no exception. But from whom does he seem to catch the majority of it from? Who is most likely responsible for promoting this "image" of Baker, especially from his days in Chicago, that he disrespects OB%, walks, loves speed, abuses pitchers, and so many of the other positions assigned to him? Isn't it those who follow sabermetrics, who analyze and observe the game, whether through the media and various articles, blogs, etc., over these last several years more then anyone else?

From my perspective, it's very true that he has not had the quality of players while here at Cincy that he had at SF. Players like Bonds, Kent, Bill Mueller, Snow and Burke make it easy to write out your lineup card. Stengel said the very same thing.

I think what bothers me about Dusty more then anything is that he doesn't seem to maximize (for lack of a better word) the potential in those players he does possess, know their weaknesses/strengths (maybe even stubbornly ignores them), when it comes to his lineup construction. Some of the things said about him prove true when I see him not only desiring the acquisition of players like a Patterson, WT, and others; but then placing them at the top of a batting order, who couldn't get on base even if they bribed the umpire, while banishing players who can in the bottom half of that batting order.

And he does seem to adhere to an aggressive "small ball" philosophy, again IMO, where he will engage in what most would say is risky, and even reckless, behavior (bunts, hit n runs, etc), give up outs, in order to manufacture a run.

I have, and have read, Baker's book on hitting. Sound stuff. So I don't think he wants guys up there hacking away at anything. He's being mis-characterized in that sense. He wants players to recognize and swing at good pitches. It's a high percentage kind of thing.

But I think some of the criticisms of baker are sound. Some are exaggerated obviously for effect. But some are very sound.

What I am waiting to see from Baker this year is how he handles some of the up and coming young players. Will h show the patience and give them a chance to mature and improve?

Ron Madden
03-16-2010, 05:33 AM
I think it's hilarious.

I have to admit that I got chuckle out of it as well.

Ltlabner
03-16-2010, 05:55 AM
People...there is no joking in baseball. We do not allow humor to interrupt our sport.

Roy Tucker
03-16-2010, 07:54 AM
I thought decisions were diamonds in flow charts.

I still have my green plastic IBM 360 flowcharting template in drawer somewhere.

TRF
03-16-2010, 09:29 AM
I thought decisions were diamonds in flow charts.

I still have my green plastic IBM 360 flowcharting template in drawer somewhere.

nerd.

trf quietly opens his copy of Visio...

RedsManRick
03-16-2010, 10:33 AM
I actually think Dusty has a good idea about how to approach hitting. When you look at Dusty as a hitter, he took his fair share of walks while making a lot of contact (9.5% and 10.5% respectively for his career). I just have two complaints:

1) He doesn't seem to fully appreciate the breadth of skill sets that people bring to the dish. Accordingly, he seems to want all his hitters to hit one way -- the way he did. This is fine for most hitters, but not for guys who struggle with contact and thus benefit from being particularly selective (assuming they're able to do so...).

2) I just don't think he properly values the outcomes the result from the approach in terms of their contribution to run scoring.

He seems to have trouble accepting the "randomness" of offensive production. While the hitter has some control over what kind of hit he gets, if any, Dusty is too focused on generating a specific series of PA results. The problem with this of course is that if any link in the chain doesn't happen, his approach is suddenly sub-optimal. Or put a bit more explicitly, two quick examples:

- A walk may not be as good as a single, but it's a heck of a lot better than a weak grounder to 2B. With men on base, Dusty encourages guys to be "RBI" men rather than simply be good batters. A walk with men on base is a good thing.
- The value of advancing a guy 1 base at the cost of an out only makes sense when scoring 1 run significantly increases your chances of winning the game. He seems to over-estimate the likelihood of getting that sac fly with 1 out compared to what might happen using the first out to try and get a hit.

Spring~Fields
03-16-2010, 11:15 AM
2009 BA OBP SLG OPS
14 Pittsburgh .252 .318 .387 .705
15 Cincinnati .247 .318 .394 .712
16 San Diego .242 .321 .381 .701
League average .259 .330 .409 .739
Cincinnati 15th in BA
Cincinnati tied for 14th and 15th in OBP
Cincinnati 13th in OPS
Cincinnati below league averages

2009 Runs scored 11th
11 Cincinnati 673
12 NY Mets 671
13 San Fran 657
14 Houston 643
15 San Diego 638
16 Pittsburgh 636
League average 718

2008 BA OBP SLG OPS
13 San Fran .262 .321 .382 .703
14 Cincinnati .247 .321 .408 .729
15 Pittsburgh .258 .320 .403 .723
16 San Diego .250 .317 .390 .707
League average .260 .331 .413 .744
Cincinnati 16th in BA
Cincinnati tied for 13th and 14th in OBP
Cincinnati 12th in OPS
Cincinnati below league averages

2008 Runs scored 12th
12 Cincinnati 704
13 LA Dodgers 700
14 Washington 641
15 San Fran 640
16 San Diego 637
League average 734

icehole3
03-16-2010, 11:35 AM
my fav 5

Sparky
Lou
Pete
Trader Jack
MacKanin

TRF
03-16-2010, 11:40 AM
my fav 5

Sparky
Lou
Pete
Trader Jack
MacKanin

Ahead of Davey?

Sparky and Lou, sure. Pete? eh.

icehole3
03-16-2010, 11:44 AM
Pete changed the attitude from a losing organization back to a winning foundation, I guess Davey Johnson could go ahead of MacKanin, but not Trader Jack

George Anderson
03-16-2010, 12:01 PM
Pete changed the attitude from a losing organization back to a winning foundation,

Yea but the organization was only a losing organization for a whole whopping 2 plus years (82', 83' and 84')before Pete got here. I have no words to describe whats been going on the past decade.

_Sir_Charles_
03-16-2010, 12:35 PM
Sparkey didn't have a HS education, and was very prone to saying loads of stupid stuff.

Lighthearted?

Nah, he's the team punching bag, day in and day out.

Bingo. I can get frustrated by his lineups too at times. But all the garbage that was said about him when he was coming into the Reds, I've seen them as being BS. I haven't seen him abusing young arms, I haven't seen him favoring vets over kids, I haven't seen him telling his hitters to hack at anything up there. BS. IMO, he's the best manager we've had in DECADES. He is a sound byte machine, but that's also a bonus in my book. Anything that takes the media focus off of the players and lets them do their jobs...I'm for it.

TRF
03-16-2010, 02:14 PM
Pete changed the attitude from a losing organization back to a winning foundation, I guess Davey Johnson could go ahead of MacKanin, but not Trader Jack

Didn't Davey take the Reds to the NLCS?

Jack took them to a one game playoff.

I'd take Davey 10 times out of 10.

westofyou
03-16-2010, 02:25 PM
Didn't Davey take the Reds to the NLCS?

Jack took them to a one game playoff.

I'd take Davey 10 times out of 10.

Davey was twice the manager that Rose was, too bad he wasn't married when he worked in Cincinnati, too bad that mattered to the owner who didn't like to pay scouts to watch baseball.


1984 1989 786 412 373 .525
1993 1995 377 204 172 .543

mth123
03-16-2010, 07:37 PM
I actually think Dusty has a good idea about how to approach hitting. When you look at Dusty as a hitter, he took his fair share of walks while making a lot of contact (9.5% and 10.5% respectively for his career). I just have two complaints:

1) He doesn't seem to fully appreciate the breadth of skill sets that people bring to the dish. Accordingly, he seems to want all his hitters to hit one way -- the way he did. This is fine for most hitters, but not for guys who struggle with contact and thus benefit from being particularly selective (assuming they're able to do so...).

2) I just don't think he properly values the outcomes the result from the approach in terms of their contribution to run scoring.

He seems to have trouble accepting the "randomness" of offensive production. While the hitter has some control over what kind of hit he gets, if any, Dusty is too focused on generating a specific series of PA results. The problem with this of course is that if any link in the chain doesn't happen, his approach is suddenly sub-optimal. Or put a bit more explicitly, two quick examples:

- A walk may not be as good as a single, but it's a heck of a lot better than a weak grounder to 2B. With men on base, Dusty encourages guys to be "RBI" men rather than simply be good batters. A walk with men on base is a good thing.
- The value of advancing a guy 1 base at the cost of an out only makes sense when scoring 1 run significantly increases your chances of winning the game. He seems to over-estimate the likelihood of getting that sac fly with 1 out compared to what might happen using the first out to try and get a hit.


Agree with all this.