PDA

View Full Version : should Chapman, Leake, Wood pitch out of the pen in 2010?



Will M
03-15-2010, 11:27 PM
whats wrong with having one or more of the young guns pitch out of the pen this year? Pedro did it. Johan did it. Lots of guys on good teams have had to prove themselves in middle relief before getting a rotation spot. on the Reds we have simply put a guy with promise (the few we get) in the #4 or #5 spot in the rotation. but this year we have a solid 1-2-3-4 & Maloney (low ceiling but still a possible solid major leaguer) & Wood/Leake/Chapman. i don't know a lot about Wood but I suspect Chapman & Leake could pitch out of the pen. beats Fisher & Lincoln as the 6th & 7th relievers. plus it lets them get some major league experience in lower pressure situations before taking over rotation spots in 2011.

the one downside is of course that it starts the arbitration clock. i'm kinda sick of this arguement. if these guys can help the 2010 team then get them on it. i firmly believe we can win this year. no reason to 'wait til next year'

the only other arguement i can think against this is that it will somehow screw up their arm since they have all been starters in the past. again, lots & lots of major league starters began their careers in the pen.

thoughts?

Johnny Footstool
03-16-2010, 12:21 AM
I am a huge fan of letting young pitchers cut their teeth in a major league bullpen prior to thowing them into the rotation. It's a lot easier to baby their arms in middle relief while letting them learn how to get major league hitters out than to throw them to the wolves and let them pitch 150 innings of 5.50 ERA ball.

corkedbat
03-16-2010, 12:28 AM
whats wrong with having one or more of the young guns pitch out of the pen this year? Pedro did it. Johan did it. Lots of guys on good teams have had to prove themselves in middle relief before getting a rotation spot. on the Reds we have simply put a guy with promise (the few we get) in the #4 or #5 spot in the rotation. but this year we have a solid 1-2-3-4 & Maloney (low ceiling but still a possible solid major leaguer) & Wood/Leake/Chapman. i don't know a lot about Wood but I suspect Chapman & Leake could pitch out of the pen. beats Fisher & Lincoln as the 6th & 7th relievers. plus it lets them get some major league experience in lower pressure situations before taking over rotation spots in 2011.

the one downside is of course that it starts the arbitration clock. i'm kinda sick of this arguement. if these guys can help the 2010 team then get them on it. i firmly believe we can win this year. no reason to 'wait til next year'

the only other arguement i can think against this is that it will somehow screw up their arm since they have all been starters in the past. again, lots & lots of major league starters began their careers in the pen.

thoughts?

If we were hurting for arms and they we more experienced, then I'd say yes, but if I'm not mistaken neither Leake nor Chapman has a minor league start (much less triple A). I'd want them in a starters role this year - either ML or MLB.

If they were already minor-league seasoned and held back by othher starters, I'd consider it, but not at this point.

Scrap Irony
03-16-2010, 12:29 AM
Me too, Johnny. Worked for Earl Weaver, it will work today. (Of course, I also think the Reds' current OF situation screams out for at least one platoon, if not two.) Then again, I'm also still waiting for Gallagher, the novels of James Clavelle, and hair parted in the middle to come back into style, so what do I know?

kaldaniels
03-16-2010, 12:31 AM
I'm not sick of the arbitration clock argument. It shouldn't be the only factor, but it should be considered. Do we want one of say, Leake's cheap years spent pitching out of the bullpen...no we don't. Not saying circumstances should not ever allow it, but to completely rule out the arbitration issue is throwing every bit of business sense out the window.

Blitz Dorsey
03-16-2010, 02:03 AM
Maybe later in the season, but certainly not right away. All of these guys will likely begin the season in the minors as starters. And then, if they are performing well and the Reds need them, they will be called up either as starters or relievers. For example, in August, I could see all of these guys in the Reds' pen. Or two in the pen and one in the rotation. Or two in the rotation and one in the pen. But in April? No way. 0 of 3.

TheNext44
03-16-2010, 02:19 AM
There's no reason to pitch Leake in the pen. He's a starter with starter poise and smarts already. The only reason why he's going to the minors at all is to gain strength, which he can't get in the pen at any level. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see Leake in the Reds roster opening day, if he shows that he can go deep into a game this spring.

As for the others, not a bad idea, especially for Chapman. Nolan Ryan was a 100 MPH pitcher that started in the pen and had a pretty long career as a starter.

11larkin11
03-16-2010, 02:22 AM
If we had the 07 pen, then yes, but our pen is the strength of our team, with 0 spots for competition, really. Get them their starts in AAA.

Blitz Dorsey
03-16-2010, 02:32 AM
There's no reason to pitch Leake in the pen. He's a starter with starter poise and smarts already. The only reason why he's going to the minors at all is to gain strength, which he can't get in the pen at any level. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see Leake in the Reds roster opening day, if he shows that he can go deep into a game this spring.

As for the others, not a bad idea, especially for Chapman. Nolan Ryan was a 100 MPH pitcher that started in the pen and had a pretty long career as a starter.

Really? You wouldn't be surprised to see Leake make the team out of spring training? I would submit he has less than 10 percent chance of making the Opening Day roster.

Will M
03-16-2010, 03:09 AM
If we had the 07 pen, then yes, but our pen is the strength of our team, with 0 spots for competition, really. Get them their starts in AAA.

IMO we have a fairly good pen. Cordero, Masset & Rhodes are solid. Burton should pitch better overall in 2010 than in 2009. Herrera had a nice 2009.
After that we are not at all strong. I would not say we have 0 spots open for competition. Fisher was pretty generic in 2009. Lincoln was hurt and is getting hit hard this spring. Owings is ok as a placholder but did nothing in 2009 that should guarantee him a major league job going forward.

Will M
03-16-2010, 03:13 AM
I'm not sick of the arbitration clock argument. It shouldn't be the only factor, but it should be considered. Do we want one of say, Leake's cheap years spent pitching out of the bullpen...no we don't. Not saying circumstances should not ever allow it, but to completely rule out the arbitration issue is throwing every bit of business sense out the window.

i am not saying pitch Leake out of the pen for years. just 2010.

lets look at a hypothetical situation.
this spring Wood, Leake, Chapman, Francisco & Frazier strongly outperform Maloney, Lincoln, Fisher, Balentien/Nix & Miles. However all the prospects are sent to Louisville. June 1rst they all are promoted because Maloney, Lincoln, Fisher, Balentien/Nix & Miles stink.

what have we gained? money

what have we lost? the 2010 season

RBA
03-16-2010, 03:27 AM
No.

TheNext44
03-16-2010, 03:45 AM
Really? You wouldn't be surprised to see Leake make the team out of spring training? I would submit he has less than 10 percent chance of making the Opening Day roster.


I wouldn't be surprised to see Leake in the Reds roster opening day, if he shows that he can go deep into a game this spring.

Right now, 10% is about right. But if he makes it to 5 innings an outing, those odds go real high, imo.

TheNext44
03-16-2010, 03:48 AM
IMO we have a fairly good pen. Cordero, Masset & Rhodes are solid. Burton should pitch better overall in 2010 than in 2009. Herrera had a nice 2009.
After that we are not at all strong. I would not say we have 0 spots open for competition. Fisher was pretty generic in 2009. Lincoln was hurt and is getting hit hard this spring. Owings is ok as a placholder but did nothing in 2009 that should guarantee him a major league job going forward.

I agree, or actually am less optimistic about the Reds pen. Relievers rarely have two good years in a row. I could see he Reds needing some reinforcements early this year. But the good news is that the Reds have them in the minors for the first time in awhile.

dougdirt
03-16-2010, 04:53 AM
Chapman, sure. At some point this year put him in the pen to limit his innings. He threw 125 in the 2008/2009 season, so he should probably be limited to something around 140-150 given the long layoff.

Leake threw 142 in college last season. Wood threw 167 in AA/AAA. They are better suited to handle a full seasons work load of 175 innings this season. No need to take them out of their comfort zone. The Reds have a ton of available, good options for the bullpen in 2010 that they don't need to worry about messing with a starter in the bullpen for April.

Ron Madden
03-16-2010, 05:21 AM
If we had the 07 pen, then yes, but our pen is the strength of our team, with 0 spots for competition, really. Get them their starts in AAA.

If there's one thing you can say for certain about any bullpen it is...

"You never know how good your bullpen is from one year to the next".

hebroncougar
03-16-2010, 07:57 AM
That's a great question. Chapman, I say yes. I hope Leake makes the rotation, but I doubt he'll be given a real shot and that's a shame IMO. I'd be real careful on overusing Chapman this season in terms of workload, you've already got $30 million invested in him. Wood, I wouldn't mind seeing make 12-15 starts in AAA to see where he's at, then bring him up and use him.

Caveat Emperor
03-16-2010, 09:12 AM
Chapman would be a fine candidate for bullpen activity since his cost is locked-in to the team for the next 6 seasons.

Leake / Wood? All you're doing is wasting valuable service time and advancing the date where they start to cost the team lots of money if they are as successful as people are projecting.

For a small market team like the Reds to compete, they can't be wasting pre-arb years for their top talent.

Superdude
03-16-2010, 09:43 AM
Chapman would be a fine candidate for bullpen activity since his cost is locked-in to the team for the next 6 seasons.

been in a Chapman thread lately?

membengal
03-16-2010, 10:40 AM
I have no idea what's best for them. I hope the Reds do.

I just wanted to duck in here to say that I am beyond giddy at the future of this team with Cueto and Bailey already acclimated to the bigs and Leake/Champan/Wood knocking hard on the door, with Volquez in the wings coming off Tommy John. That is as enviable a collection of young arms as you can find in baseball right now, comparable with Tampa, I would suggest. It is a wonderful base to build from, to deal from, and to get a fanbase charged up about baseball again.

I am beyond thrilled with how this appears to be developing, and can't wait to see how it all unfolds.

westofyou
03-16-2010, 11:32 AM
Weaver's Eighth Law: The best place for a rookie pitcher is in long relief

membengal
03-16-2010, 11:42 AM
It has been 40 years since Weaver's most successful days with the Palmer/McNally et al crew. Not sure that law still holds up. It may, it may not. It may just be a bon mot. Twins broke Liriano in out of the pen, didn't stop him from blowing an elbow out a short time later.

bucksfan2
03-16-2010, 12:03 PM
I have no idea what's best for them. I hope the Reds do.

I just wanted to duck in here to say that I am beyond giddy at the future of this team with Cueto and Bailey already acclimated to the bigs and Leake/Champan/Wood knocking hard on the door, with Volquez in the wings coming off Tommy John. That is as enviable a collection of young arms as you can find in baseball right now, comparable with Tampa, I would suggest. It is a wonderful base to build from, to deal from, and to get a fanbase charged up about baseball again.

I am beyond thrilled with how this appears to be developing, and can't wait to see how it all unfolds.

I am in the same boat as you. I am excited about the future arms of the Reds. I also have begun to temper those expectations because it is just spring training. IIRC Homer had a pretty impressive spring only to stumble his way through the first half of the season. IMO pitchers have an advantage early over the hitters. When that advantage catches up you will really see the metal of the pitchers.

What I bolded is the most important issue to me. While I seriously doubt the idea of Chapman will ever be considered and would doubt Leake would be traded, the Reds have quite a few trading chips at their disposal. I really think Walt will be active over the next few years building a very good club.

membengal
03-16-2010, 12:03 PM
Off the top of my head, recent successful young pitchers who have not served time in long relief:

Lincecum, Cain, F. Hernandez, Cole Hamels, Verlander, Porcello, Billingsley, Kershaw, Jurrjens. And probably others, if I spent some time musing over it.

I think the Twins broke J. Santana in via long relief, and that obviously turned out much better than Liriano did.

I just don't know that there is a "best" way.

Strikes Out Looking
03-16-2010, 12:03 PM
Weaver's Eighth Law: The best place for a rookie pitcher is in long relief

Which of course begs the question of what to do with Micah Owings.

Also, in Weaver's day, I don't think they carried 12 pitchers.

bucksfan2
03-16-2010, 12:10 PM
Off the top of my head, recent successful young pitchers who have not served time in long relief:

Lincecum, Cain, F. Hernandez, Cole Hamels, Verlander, Porcello, Billingsley, Kershaw, Jurrjens. And probably others, if I spent some time musing over it.

I think the Twins broke J. Santana in via long relief, and that obviously turned out much better than Liriano did.

I just don't know that there is a "best" way.

I think the Twins broke Santana in via long relief because he was a rule V player.

RedsManRick
03-16-2010, 12:30 PM
It has been 40 years since Weaver's most successful days with the Palmer/McNally et al crew. Not sure that law still holds up. It may, it may not. It may just be a bon mot. Twins broke Liriano in out of the pen, didn't stop him from blowing an elbow out a short time later.

I think it's about more than keeping a guy healthy and his pitch loads down; though that's certainly among the benefits. It also gives a guy a chance to adjust to the league, get used to the lifestyle, trust his stuff, etc. in a lower pressure environment. It gives the pitcher a chance to build a rapport with his catchers and for the major league pitching coach to get a good feel for the guy and his tendencies.

In general, it's about easing the transition to the majors and reducing the chance of failure. It's probably less useful for a polished, big-college guy like Leake than for somebody like Chapman, Liriano, or Santana.

westofyou
03-16-2010, 01:09 PM
I think it's about more than keeping a guy healthy and his pitch loads down; though that's certainly among the benefits. It also gives a guy a chance to adjust to the league, get used to the lifestyle, trust his stuff, etc. in a lower pressure environment. It gives the pitcher a chance to build a rapport with his catchers and for the major league pitching coach to get a good feel for the guy and his tendencies.

In general, it's about easing the transition to the majors and reducing the chance of failure. It's probably less useful for a polished, big-college guy like Leake than for somebody like Chapman, Liriano, or Santana.

Exactly, it's a good thing for some, and others that threw in college maybe not so much. Some guys like Willis, Gooden, Nolan jump right into the fire, sometimes they burn out quicker too.

Coddle thy arms...