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dfs
03-23-2010, 10:53 AM
Wilkin Castillo ...versatility is nice, but sooner or later you have to hit well enough to get back on the 40 man roster.

Micah Owings sure can hit can't he? A couple years ago the reds would have loved to have an arm like this, but now, he just looks outclassed by the current crop of guys in camp. Can any pinch hitting bat justify keeping a guy around who can really only pitch during garbage time when you have young arms that could use that garbage time experience?

If Aaron Miles or Drew Sutton see an inning in the outfield, it's an inning too many or something strange is happening with an injury. It just shouldn't happen.

Who is the backup first baseman? Are we really going to be treated to more Ramon Hernandez if Joey goes down? Don't you think Nix or Gomes or Owings or SOMEBODY would ask to take some infield?

Matt Maloney is willing to be a reliever in order to get on the big roster. He relieved in college. Your pen already has two lefties. Can you see him in that roll?

RANDY IN INDY
03-23-2010, 12:39 PM
I thought that Hernandez played better than average at first base, defensively, last season. If Votto goes down, Alonso may get his opportunity.

membengal
03-23-2010, 12:42 PM
I agree w/ Randy. Votto's replacement, if heaven forbid he needs DL time, will be playing 1b at L'ville, and that is Alonso.

dfs
03-23-2010, 12:42 PM
I thought that Hernandez played better than average at first base, defensively, last season. If Votto goes down, Alonso may get his opportunity.

He did play well defensively, but as a first baseman he put up a 202/301/303 which is pretty terrible even for a catcher. At first base that's a disaster. There are lineups that can win with that at first base, but this isn't one of them.

RedsManRick
03-23-2010, 12:56 PM
You only need a formal backup on the roster for guys who you need rest regularly or who need to be subbed out late in the game. Sure, you need somebody who can fill in on an emergency basis, but the Reds have that with Hernandez and/or Gomes. If Votto's out for an extended period of time, you dip in to AAA.

bucksfan2
03-23-2010, 01:31 PM
Wilkin Castillo ...versatility is nice, but sooner or later you have to hit well enough to get back on the 40 man roster.

Versatility has gotten Castillo to this point. Now he will need to hit in order make the club. It sure would be nice to have a guy who could get on base at a .350 clip while also playing C, 2b, 1b, of, etc.



Micah Owings sure can hit can't he? A couple years ago the reds would have loved to have an arm like this, but now, he just looks outclassed by the current crop of guys in camp. Can any pinch hitting bat justify keeping a guy around who can really only pitch during garbage time when you have young arms that could use that garbage time experience?

Not sure is Chapman or Leake were ever really in consideration for the 5th rotation spot. If Owings can be a decent 5th starter then his bat adds a tremendous amount of value. If he becomes a long man, like the end of last season, his value is diminished a little bit because he becomes pitcher first and hitter second in almost every game.


If Aaron Miles or Drew Sutton see an inning in the outfield, it's an inning too many or something strange is happening with an injury. It just shouldn't happen.

In the NL you need at least one guy like Miles or Sutton. With double switching an important part of the game you need one utility player who can play multiple positions and move all over the diamond. In the AL it is a whole different story.


Who is the backup first baseman? Are we really going to be treated to more Ramon Hernandez if Joey goes down? Don't you think Nix or Gomes or Owings or SOMEBODY would ask to take some infield?

Your backup 1b is Alonso, but there is no reason to put him on the 25 man roster. In a one or two game pinch Janish or Hernandez can fill that roll.


Matt Maloney is willing to be a reliever in order to get on the big roster. He relieved in college. Your pen already has two lefties. Can you see him in that roll?

I for one worry if Herrera has been figured out yet. IMO if Maloney can pitch out of the pen he adds more value than Herrera.

lollipopcurve
03-23-2010, 01:39 PM
I'll be disappointed if they don't keep Sutton.

Scrap Irony
03-23-2010, 01:52 PM
What's the matter with Gomes as a back-up 1B? He played there against Colorado and should be serviceable, assuming it's for limited innings. That would make for the far stronger offensive lineup if Votto goes down for three or four games, tops.

nate
03-23-2010, 01:56 PM
What's the matter with Gomes as a back-up 1B? He played there against Colorado and should be serviceable, assuming it's for limited innings. That would make for the far stronger offensive lineup if Votto goes down for three or four games, tops.

I always wondered why they didn't pursue Gomes at 1B a bit more.

OnBaseMachine
03-23-2010, 02:08 PM
I'll be disappointed if they don't keep Sutton.

Agreed. He can play multiple positions, is a switch-hitter, and he hit well in the minors (.820 OPS in 2,671 plate appearances). Aaron Miles is getting old and is coming off a horrible season, and isn't playing much better this spring. Sutton deserves to be on the Opening Day roster over Miles, IMO.

corkedbat
03-23-2010, 02:10 PM
I always wondered why they didn't pursue Gomes at 1B a bit more.

Frazier backing up Votto and Rolen is also a possability - it would give you OF depth too. I'd start him in AAA, but sometime this year, I expect him in the supersub role.

Hoosier Red
03-23-2010, 02:14 PM
I for one worry if Herrera has been figured out yet. IMO if Maloney can pitch out of the pen he adds more value than Herrera.

Por que?

It isn't like he's been consistently lit up at the end of last year or this year in spring training. Plus he's probably more effected by the atmosphere in Goodyear (dry, harder time getting feel for breaking pitches) than any other pitcher.

bucksfan2
03-23-2010, 02:38 PM
Por que?

It isn't like he's been consistently lit up at the end of last year or this year in spring training. Plus he's probably more effected by the atmosphere in Goodyear (dry, harder time getting feel for breaking pitches) than any other pitcher.

You can only get by on smoke and mirrors for so long.

It has long been my belief that Herrera is somewhat of a trick pitcher. I don't think his velocity is enough to consistently fool hitters. I think once you have seen him a time or two you are able to better pick up his motion you will have success. You may be fooled, but with his top speeds around 80 mph you should be able to foul the ball off. I think Herrera's shelf life is limited due to his velocity. The more exposure he has the better rips major league player will have. Its even scarier when you consider Herrera's pitch is coming in at batting speed velocity.

dfs
03-23-2010, 02:39 PM
What's the matter with Gomes as a back-up 1B? He played there against Colorado and should be serviceable, assuming it's for limited innings. That would make for the far stronger offensive lineup if Votto goes down for three or four games, tops.

?? As far as I can tell, he's never played an inning at first base as a major leaguer.

I agree with the consensus that it would be nice to see Sutton start the season with the big club, but I suspect, just like Gomes was sent to AAA last year after clearly outplaying the opposition, that he will end up playing for the RiverBats.

Having Frazier around does alleviate many backup problems at many positions.

Does anybody want to stand up and say that Owings deserves a spot on this staff simply as a pitcher?

GADawg
03-23-2010, 02:46 PM
sutton had definitely outplayed Miles but I don't see Jocketty letting them head north without Miles stowed away. Also what about Cairo? I never, and still don't, expect him to make the club but he's played alot better than I expected this spring and is fairly versatile....besides some of the young guys need someone around who's old enough to buy beer!

RED VAN HOT
03-23-2010, 04:00 PM
I for one worry if Herrera has been figured out yet. IMO if Maloney can pitch out of the pen he adds more value than Herrera.

I have worried about that as well. At any rate, the longer Herrera stays in a game the more likely the opposition is to adjust to him. I see Herrera as a one inning reliever.

Although I favor Maloney over Owings as the #5, it does makes sense to start Maloney in the pen. Owings has more experience as a starter and would be available to pinch hit when he did not start. If that works, great. On the other hand, Owings average start last season was about 5.2 innings. For the Owings starts, Maloney might be the first arm out of the pen. He should be able to provide at least two innings and ease the burden on the pen in the event of an early call. If Maloney pitches better in Aprill and May, try him in the fifth spot and send Owings to the pen.

Hoosier Red
03-23-2010, 04:09 PM
You can only get by on smoke and mirrors for so long.

It has long been my belief that Herrera is somewhat of a trick pitcher. I don't think his velocity is enough to consistently fool hitters. I think once you have seen him a time or two you are able to better pick up his motion you will have success. You may be fooled, but with his top speeds around 80 mph you should be able to foul the ball off. I think Herrera's shelf life is limited due to his velocity. The more exposure he has the better rips major league player will have. Its even scarier when you consider Herrera's pitch is coming in at batting speed velocity.

It's definately a possibility, but until we see some proof that people have figured him out I see no reason to drop someone because other teams might figure him out.

I think slow, slower and slowest is awfully hard to figure out when coming in behind Harang 93MPH, Bailey 93-95 MPH, Cueto 93 MPH, and Chapman 97-98 MPH. Also assuming you do catch on, how nasty is Masset or Cordero going to look?

bucksfan2
03-23-2010, 04:18 PM
It's definately a possibility, but until we see some proof that people have figured him out I see no reason to drop someone because other teams might figure him out.

I think slow, slower and slowest is awfully hard to figure out when coming in behind Harang 93MPH, Bailey 93-95 MPH, Cueto 93 MPH, and Chapman 97-98 MPH. Also assuming you do catch on, how nasty is Masset or Cordero going to look?

Don't get me wrong, I agree that changing speeds, location, movement, and keeping a hitter off balance are the important things in pitching. But I also think there is a minimum velocity that a pitcher needs to throw in order to be successful. I can't give you an exact number, but I think Herrera hovers on the wrong side of that velocity. The successful pitchers who don't reach a certain velocity are knuckleballers and that is because the ball is moving all over he place.

I worry that Herrera will hit a wall soon, and when he hits that wall he will hit it hard. I just don't see him being successful too many times around the block.

westofyou
03-23-2010, 04:19 PM
?? As far as I can tell, he's never played an inning at first base as a major leaguer.

He hasn't and Miles has a total of 33 Innings in the OF and that was in 2007-2008, so any appearance there will be emergency only.

_Sir_Charles_
03-23-2010, 05:34 PM
You can only get by on smoke and mirrors for so long.

It has long been my belief that Herrera is somewhat of a trick pitcher. I don't think his velocity is enough to consistently fool hitters. I think once you have seen him a time or two you are able to better pick up his motion you will have success. You may be fooled, but with his top speeds around 80 mph you should be able to foul the ball off. I think Herrera's shelf life is limited due to his velocity. The more exposure he has the better rips major league player will have. Its even scarier when you consider Herrera's pitch is coming in at batting speed velocity.

You really think he gets by with smoke and mirrors? You can be an effective MLB pitcher without big time velocity. You just have to locate well, have a wide variety of pitches, and you have to effectively change speeds. DRH does that. Well.

I agree that he does have a "trick" pitch in the screwgie...but he's more than a "trick" pitcher. Because he doesn't lean on that one pitch. If left in for extended innings in one game, yes I see him getting hit hard as the hitters adjust to him. But from game to game, most hitters don't adjust to a pitcher like that. It's consecutive at bats where they make adjustments. 1 inning stints (2 at the most) and he'll be fine.

I also agree that the Arizona climate will affect him (and Arroyo) more than any pitcher on our staff.

bucksfan2
03-24-2010, 08:23 AM
You really think he gets by with smoke and mirrors? You can be an effective MLB pitcher without big time velocity. You just have to locate well, have a wide variety of pitches, and you have to effectively change speeds. DRH does that. Well.

There is a velocity that is a must. We are talking about professional hitters. You can only get by on batting practice speed, location, and movement for so long.

He may be only a one inning pitcher because the other team gets a good read on him going into his second inning. But that will become an issue once the league gets more of a report on him.

membengal
03-24-2010, 09:19 AM
Doug Jones says, "hi", in terms of velocity that is a "must". As does John Franco. And many others.

WebScorpion
03-25-2010, 01:34 AM
You can only get by on smoke and mirrors for so long.



Phil Niekro, Gaylord Perry, Catfish Hunter, Fergie Jenkins, Mordecai Brown, Robin Roberts, Carl Hubbell, Red Faber, Early Winn, and Hoyt Wilhelm all say 'Hi!'...oh, and they're waving from Cooperstown. ;) Cy Young never had much of a fastball either.

TheNext44
03-25-2010, 02:54 AM
Daniel Ray would have to worry about the league figuring him out if he only had one trick pitch. He has four. Big difference. And some of his pitches do move as much as a knuckleball, so it really is even less of an issue.

It's not like he throws 60 MPH, his fast ball is between 80-85, which 20 years ago was close to league average. And since the key to hitting is timing, what's most important is not how fast you throw, but the difference in speed between your pitches. Herrera's around 10-12 mph difference is just about right.

He will stop being successful once he loses his pin point control and ability to throw any pitch on any count. But as long as he keeps that up, he should keep being successful.

Sea Ray
03-25-2010, 08:56 AM
Micah Owings sure can hit can't he? A couple years ago the reds would have loved to have an arm like this, but now, he just looks outclassed by the current crop of guys in camp. Can any pinch hitting bat justify keeping a guy around who can really only pitch during garbage time when you have young arms that could use that garbage time experience?



I suggest not getting too excited about Micah Owings as a hitter. He bails like crazy with his front foot and I expect major league pitchers to exploit that this year. I think he's due for a dropoff in his offensive numbers

nate
03-25-2010, 09:15 AM
Daniel Ray would have to worry about the league figuring him out if he only had one trick pitch. He has four. Big difference. And some of his pitches do move as much as a knuckleball, so it really is even less of an issue.

It's not like he throws 60 MPH, his fast ball is between 80-85, which 20 years ago was close to league average. And since the key to hitting is timing, what's most important is not how fast you throw, but the difference in speed between your pitches. Herrera's around 10-12 mph difference is just about right.

He will stop being successful once he loses his pin point control and ability to throw any pitch on any count. But as long as he keeps that up, he should keep being successful.

Well said.

nate
03-25-2010, 09:15 AM
I suggest not getting too excited about Micah Owings as a hitter. He bails like crazy with his front foot and I expect major league pitchers to exploit that this year. I think he's due for a dropoff in his offensive numbers

Yes.