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View Full Version : Revisiting Beckham v Alonso



Blitz Dorsey
03-30-2010, 04:37 PM
Watching the Scott Van Pelt show on ESPNU right now and Gordon Beckham is on. As most here know, he came up as a third baseman last year and has been moved to 2B this year. He was asked if he still wanted to be a SS like he played in college, if he would perhaps move back to third one day or if he thought he would stay at 2B long term. Beckham said he thinks he found a home at second and hopes he "spend(s) the rest of (his) career there."

If he was a shortstop, I would say the Reds made a huge mistake in not drafting him. However, if even he views himself as a 2B all the way for the rest of his career, I fully understand why the Reds did what they did. They thought Alonso was the best player on the board and they didn't think Beckham was a SS at the MLB level.

Now, one could argue that Beckham has a higher trade value right now and that alone would have been worth taking him over Alonso, but I don't have a problem with what the Reds did. Didn't at the time and still don't. I understand the head-scratching since the Reds already had Votto, but it was still a solid pick. I would feel completely different if Gordon Beckham was a true SS. If we had let our SS of the future (and one that can hit) slip through our hands, it would have been awful. But the kid is not a shortstop.

Hopefully Yonder tears the cover off the ball this year (at AAA to start and then maybe a call-up at some point as a big bat off the bench or an injury replacement) and reminds everyone why he was the correct pick.

REDblooded
03-30-2010, 08:22 PM
Definitely pulling for Alonso, but I recently read something by (i think it was keith law) that said he wishes they would give Beckham a try at SS again because he is one of the most instinctive players there he's ever seen.

flyer85
03-30-2010, 10:22 PM
The problem with Yonder was the same one when they drafted him ... Joey Votto. He is nothing more than trade bait at this point.

dougdirt
03-30-2010, 10:23 PM
The problem with Yonder was the same one when they drafted him ... Joey Votto. He is nothing more than trade bait at this point.

Which is what Beckham would be too.

dunner13
03-30-2010, 10:27 PM
Which is what Beckham would be too.

really....... I think beckam would be our starting SS right now and for the future. Do you think he cant play short? I know I have seen some people question whether he could or not but it seems like if he could just be an average SS his bat would make him worth it.

REDblooded
03-30-2010, 10:58 PM
really....... I think beckam would be our starting SS right now and for the future. Do you think he cant play short? I know I have seen some people question whether he could or not but it seems like if he could just be an average SS his bat would make him worth it.

Killer question... Do you think he would be worse defensively than Cabrera at this point?

sick burn.

TheNext44
03-30-2010, 11:17 PM
If the White Sox thought Beckham was a real SS, they would be playing him there.


Alexei Ramirez, their current SS is not a natural SS, having played in CF when he was in Cuba and 2B his first year in the majors. The White Sox considered him a SS project in 2009, and he responded adequately, but with enough rough spots, that if they Beckham was a true SS option, they would take it, or at least try him there.

The fact that they aren't even trying him at SS is a sure sign that he really isn't one.

dougdirt
03-30-2010, 11:29 PM
really....... I think beckam would be our starting SS right now and for the future. Do you think he cant play short? I know I have seen some people question whether he could or not but it seems like if he could just be an average SS his bat would make him worth it.

Why would you think that? The Reds move their guys slow. Beckham would have finished last season in AA if the Reds drafted him because he would have been blocked. Plus, the guy isn't a shortstop at all. Third baseman, maybe. Second baeseman, maybe. Shortstop, no.

Brutus
03-30-2010, 11:38 PM
If the White Sox thought Beckham was a real SS, they would be playing him there.


Alexei Ramirez, their current SS is not a natural SS, having played in CF when he was in Cuba and 2B his first year in the majors. The White Sox considered him a SS project in 2009, and he responded adequately, but with enough rough spots, that if they Beckham was a true SS option, they would take it, or at least try him there.

The fact that they aren't even trying him at SS is a sure sign that he really isn't one.

Pretty much my take on this verbatim.

kpresidente
03-31-2010, 04:00 AM
If the White Sox thought Beckham was a real SS, they would be playing him there.


Alexei Ramirez, their current SS is not a natural SS, having played in CF when he was in Cuba and 2B his first year in the majors. The White Sox considered him a SS project in 2009, and he responded adequately, but with enough rough spots, that if they Beckham was a true SS option, they would take it, or at least try him there.

The fact that they aren't even trying him at SS is a sure sign that he really isn't one.

Oh, please. Lets everybody look at things in a vacuum. Ramirez is playing because of his bat, and he's playing SS because he's solid there and was terrible at 2B in '08. Just because Beckham is playing 2B doesn't mean he can't play SS (which he's already proven he can, despite what the FO apologists like Doug say).

Weak, weak argument. The lengths people will go to justify a bad move...

REDblooded
03-31-2010, 04:09 AM
Oh, please. Lets everybody look at things in a vacuum. Ramirez is playing because of his bat, and he's playing SS because he's solid there and was terrible at 2B in '08. Just because Beckham is playing 2B doesn't mean he can't play SS (which he's already proven he can, despite what the FO apologists like Doug say).

Weak, weak argument. The lengths people will go to justify a bad move...

Gonna agree here... Went back and found the article... It's an INsider piece by Law about the breakout candidates for this season where he mentioned that he really wishes the White Sox would give him a run at SS.

TheNext44
03-31-2010, 04:27 AM
Oh, please. Lets everybody look at things in a vacuum. Ramirez is playing because of his bat, and he's playing SS because he's solid there and was terrible at 2B in '08. Just because Beckham is playing 2B doesn't mean he can't play SS (which he's already proven he can, despite what the FO apologists like Doug say).

Weak, weak argument. The lengths people will go to justify a bad move...

Beckham hasn't played an inning of SS in the majors, so how can you argue that he has already proven that he can? Because he played SS in college? Then Todd Frazier should be given the Reds SS job because he clearly has proven that he can play SS.

And the White Sox moved Ramirez to the most difficult position on the field because he was terrible at an easier one? They went with him at SS because they had no other options, and prayed for the best. Ask any White Sox fan and they will tell you that Ramirez was terrible at first at SS, but seemed to be passable by the end of the season.

You said it, he's in the lineup for his bat. He's a below average fielder wherever you put him, so why keep him at the most difficult position if you had a true SS like you say Beckham really is?

And for the record, I was for the Reds drafting Smoak instead of Beckham or Alonso, and still think they should have.

mth123
03-31-2010, 07:28 AM
If the Reds had drafted Beckham, he'd likely be at 3B and Rolen would be elsewhere. Zach Stewart would still be a Red or the Reds may have found a more appropriate deal for him.

HokieRed
03-31-2010, 09:38 AM
If the Reds had drafted Beckham, he'd likely be at 3B and Rolen would be elsewhere. Zach Stewart would still be a Red or the Reds may have found a more appropriate deal for him.

And we wouldn't have Alonso or whatever he or Joey Votto will bring in a trade (or what some other part of our mix will bring in a trade if the org. figures out how to get these 2 of the system's best left-handed bats into the lineup at the same time.)

bucksfan2
03-31-2010, 10:48 AM
The sole reason I didn't really care for the Alonso pick is he was touted as a 1b only. For a NL team that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. It didn't matter than Votto was a 1b at the time because he still was a question mark. I just don't think its smart drafting to have a player play only one position because you never know if someone else will beat him out.

FWIW I think if Alonso can play LF then the pick makes more and more sense. But I also think that if the Reds saw Beckham as nothing more than a corner IF then you pick the better bat and Alonso fit the bill at that time.

As for the Reds moving their prospects at a slow rate I think that is a bit of a fallacy. It appears the Reds are giving Mike Leake a shot at winning the 5th starter spot without any minor league experience. I think you can call that warp speed. What I can see is Jocketty wants to make sure the player is truly ready for the bigs, not ready for an up and down up and down rodeo. A lot can be learned from the Homer experiment and when he truly became ready for the majors. IIRC some people were calling for Homer to be brought up into the pen 4 years ago.

paintmered
03-31-2010, 02:47 PM
Oh, please. Lets everybody look at things in a vacuum. Ramirez is playing because of his bat, and he's playing SS because he's solid there and was terrible at 2B in '08. Just because Beckham is playing 2B doesn't mean he can't play SS (which he's already proven he can, despite what the FO apologists like Doug say).

Weak, weak argument. The lengths people will go to justify a bad move...

Valid point. But next time make it without the condescending tone.

_Sir_Charles_
03-31-2010, 03:01 PM
TheNext44 made the most valid point in this argument as far as I'm concerned. If college experience at short is enough to prove you're capable of playing it effectively in the bigs...then Todd Frazier should be our shortstop. The fact that Beckham isn't playing short (and HASN'T played short since his call-up) is a fairly big red flag in terms of his ability defensively at short. And I find it rather hard to believe that this red flag just "suddenly" appeared. I'm pretty sure he was a somewhat limited defensive shortstop in college. I just think some sportswriters have personal favorites and run with it.

If you ignore defense and look at their bats alone, I'd say that Yonder is the better pick. But factor in the defense and it gets murky. Either one of these guys would've had to be moved off their original position to play in the bigs for the Redlegs. It's almost a coin flip IMO. I don't think the Reds could've gone wrong really with either of them.

osuceltic
03-31-2010, 03:12 PM
TheNext44 made the most valid point in this argument as far as I'm concerned. If college experience at short is enough to prove you're capable of playing it effectively in the bigs...then Todd Frazier should be our shortstop. The fact that Beckham isn't playing short (and HASN'T played short since his call-up) is a fairly big red flag in terms of his ability defensively at short. And I find it rather hard to believe that this red flag just "suddenly" appeared. I'm pretty sure he was a somewhat limited defensive shortstop in college. I just think some sportswriters have personal favorites and run with it.

If you ignore defense and look at their bats alone, I'd say that Yonder is the better pick. But factor in the defense and it gets murky. Either one of these guys would've had to be moved off their original position to play in the bigs for the Redlegs. It's almost a coin flip IMO. I don't think the Reds could've gone wrong really with either of them.
And yet most of this board wants to shift Phillips to SS every offseason. He hasn't played there since the minors and that was years ago. What's the difference?

I don't know if Beckham can play SS, but I think there's a good chance he'd be playing SS for the Reds this season if we had drafted him.

_Sir_Charles_
03-31-2010, 03:23 PM
And yet most of this board wants to shift Phillips to SS every offseason. He hasn't played there since the minors and that was years ago. What's the difference?

I don't know if Beckham can play SS, but I think there's a good chance he'd be playing SS for the Reds this season if we had drafted him.

Why do you think that? Because of his bat? Then again...what about Todd Frazier? He's had even more experience at short than Beckham has. I'd say Todd's bat would play VERY well at short. But for a team that's looking for pitching and defense first, the last place you want to sacrifice defense is at the most difficult defensive position I'd think. (yes, I was not for the Cabrera signing). If Beckham (or Frazier...or Phillips for that matter) is below average defensively at short...then you play them somewhere else...period.

In regards to Brandon, if he were to switch to short...the question is would he be an elite defensive shortstop? Some here (mainly the ones who wanted him to switch) assume that his defensive prowess would simply transfer equally to the more difficult position. I doubt it would be as simple as that.

TheNext44
03-31-2010, 03:28 PM
And yet most of this board wants to shift Phillips to SS every offseason. He hasn't played there since the minors and that was years ago. What's the difference?

I don't know if Beckham can play SS, but I think there's a good chance he'd be playing SS for the Reds this season if we had drafted him.

I am actually not for moving Phillips back to SS, but that's only because he's established himself as an above average 2B, and there's no need to mess that up.

But I still see a big difference between wanting Phillips to move back to SS, and wanting Beckham to move back to SS.

Phillips has 7 minor league seasons and over 500 games under his belt as a SS, including 5 seasons and over 300 games at AA or AAA. Beckham has 45 games at SS in the minors.

Basically, Phillips was a SS until the age of 25 when he was moved to 2B because he was blocked. Beckham was moved at age 22, when there an opportunity for him to play SS in the majors if he was ready.

Given the Reds new focus on defense, (and the White Sox lack of focus on defense) I seriously doubt that Beckham would be the Reds starting SS this year. I do think that mth123 makes the best argument, that if the Reds had drafted Beckham, he would be the teams starting 3B, and the team would still have Stewart.

Bumstead
03-31-2010, 05:28 PM
There was not one GM in MLB that thought Gordon Beckham could play SS at the MLB level. It's still way too early in both players development to make a judgement regarding that pick. In the end, the Reds have to take the best player available at that time; you can't ask for more than that. I'm sure one can find players every year from later rounds that outproduce first round picks, it's the nature of the beast.

Bum

fearofpopvol1
03-31-2010, 06:56 PM
The problem with Yonder was the same one when they drafted him ... Joey Votto. He is nothing more than trade bait at this point.

The purpose of the draft is to take the best player available, regardless of position. The Reds felt they had that in Alonso. Hard to fault that.

osuceltic
03-31-2010, 10:15 PM
I find the difference in opinions on this compared to the Stubbs-Lincecum draft interesting.

Blitz Dorsey
03-31-2010, 10:42 PM
I find the difference in opinions on this compared to the Stubbs-Lincecum draft interesting.

Yeah, but Stubbs-Lincecum is a little easier of a call, ya know? One is already a two-time Cy Young (and someone that a lot of Reds fans like me wanted the team to draft at the time ... not like it's "hindsight is 20/20") and the other is hoping to be the Reds' starting CF this year despite not hitting all that well thus far in his professional career (did hit pretty well in his cameo with the Reds last year, but I'm talking about his overall minor league numbers).