PDA

View Full Version : April 2 cuts



Reds Fanatic
04-02-2010, 06:39 PM
According to Fay's blog Maloney is the first of the cuts today.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/

Danny Serafini
04-02-2010, 06:40 PM
No full report yet, but Maloney is out according to Fay:

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/04/02/not-a-fun-day/

OnBaseMachine
04-02-2010, 06:42 PM
Miguel Cairo is in tonight's lineup. Please tell me this doesn't mean he made the team.

Joseph
04-02-2010, 06:42 PM
Miguel Cairo is in tonight's lineup. Please tell me this doesn't mean he made the team.

Better than Aaron Miles.

Reds Fanatic
04-02-2010, 06:43 PM
I think not all the cuts will be made today. Last year I think they made the final moves on Sunday I believe.

TheNext44
04-02-2010, 06:44 PM
Miguel Cairo is in tonight's lineup. Please tell me this doesn't mean he made the team.

It means he didn't get cut today. Baker said there would be more cuts later.

And between Cairo and all the guys he was competing against, he's not any worse.

OnBaseMachine
04-02-2010, 06:55 PM
Mike Leake 5th starter?

From Fay:

Travis Wood is packing his stuff up. The #Reds will get to 25 before the game. It's probably going to Leake.

http://twitter.com/johnfayman

Scrap Irony
04-02-2010, 07:01 PM
Maloney leaving is a suprise. Does this mean Cairo makes the team? He's in the lineup. Does this also mean Miles doesn't? If Miles is DFA'ed, who then becomes the Redszone whipping boy?

membengal
04-02-2010, 07:08 PM
How about no one? How about the Reds field the best possible team w/out regard for salary considerations and no one is a metaphorical whipped player?

mace
04-02-2010, 07:10 PM
Mark Sheldon reports in his blog that Leake made the team. Not official, but he was suppressing a smile and talking about how surreal it was.

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/04/leake_is_reds_5th_starter.html

TheNext44
04-02-2010, 07:11 PM
Mark Sheldon reports in his blog that Leake made the team. Not official, but he was suppressing a smile and talking about how surreal it was.

Here's the link

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/04/leake_is_reds_5th_starter.html

Scrap Irony
04-02-2010, 07:11 PM
How about no one? How about the Reds field the best possible team w/out regard for salary considerations and no one is a metaphorical whipped player?

Surely you jest, sir. A Redszone without a whipping boy hasn't happened since... well, ever. There has to be someone.

Right?

OnBaseMachine
04-02-2010, 07:11 PM
From Fay:

I am told they'll be down 25 rostrer players. May take 3 non-roster players north. Remember, 5th starter isn't needed until April 11.

http://twitter.com/johnfayman

3 non-roster players? Mike Leake, Miguel Cairo, and Logan Ondrusek? I hope Sutton makes the team over Cairo or Miles.

Oops. Forgot Ondrusek was already on the 40-man roster. Laynce Nix is probably the other one.

TheNext44
04-02-2010, 07:12 PM
NM OBP beat me to it

reds44
04-02-2010, 07:12 PM
From Fay:

I am told they'll be down 25 rostrer players. May take 3 non-roster players north. Remember, 5th starter isn't needed until April 11.

http://twitter.com/johnfayman

3 non-roster players? Mike Leake, Miguel Cairo, and Logan Ondrusek? I hope Sutton makes the team over Cairo or Miles.
I would guess Leake, Cairo, and Nix, but that's just me.

TheNext44
04-02-2010, 07:15 PM
I would guess Leake, Cairo, and Nix, but that's just me.

Or Cairo, Nix and Castillo. He's not on 40 Man

Leake would not need to go north.

forfreelin04
04-02-2010, 07:16 PM
Or Cairo, Nix and Castillo. He's not on 40 Man

Leake would not need to go north.

Look for Castillo to be Chapman's caddy in AAA.

mth123
04-02-2010, 07:16 PM
I would guess Leake, Cairo, and Nix, but that's just me.

But if Leake isn't on the roster until a #5 is needed, then he isn't one of them.

OnBaseMachine
04-02-2010, 07:18 PM
Nevermind. I forgot Ondrusek is already on the 40-man roster.

reds44
04-02-2010, 07:21 PM
But if Leake isn't on the roster until a #5 is needed, then he isn't one of them.
The fact that Fay mentioned we don't need a 5th starter until April 11th leads me to believe you'd be right.

OBM, Ondrusek is on the 40 man roster, so even if he makes the team he wouldn't be included. (EDIT: just saw the post above mine)

Cairo, Nix, and Castillo is the only combination that really makes sense. If that's true, I don't think the numbers would allow Miles on the team.

mth123
04-02-2010, 07:29 PM
The fact that Fay mentioned we don't need a 5th starter until April 11th leads me to believe you'd be right.

OBM, Ondrusek is on the 40 man roster, so even if he makes the team he wouldn't be included. (EDIT: just saw the post above mine)

Cairo, Nix, and Castillo is the only combination that really makes sense. If that's true, I don't think the numbers would allow Miles on the team.

Hard to believe both Cairo and Castillo made it. Lehr?

reds44
04-02-2010, 07:31 PM
Hard to believe both Cairo and Castillo made it. Lehr?
Keep in mind one of them is only going to be up until April 11th. I just don't know why'd you would make room on the roster for Castillo if he's only going to be up until the 11th. Just give that spot to Francisco and send him down in a week.

Fay could be wrong too.

reds44
04-02-2010, 07:32 PM
Fay just tweeted he saw Aaron Miles in street clothes.

He gone?

OnBaseMachine
04-02-2010, 07:32 PM
I'm gonna be disappointed if Balentien gets cut. He played well in his short time with the Reds last season and he's had a nice spring too.

reds44
04-02-2010, 07:34 PM
Miles has been cut.


m_sheldon Aaron Miles is among those in #reds clubhouse packing their stuff. http://bit.ly/bpIIig

Today is getting better and better!

OnBaseMachine
04-02-2010, 07:35 PM
Miles has been cut.



Today is getting better and better!

Nice! I hate to see anyone lose their job but there are more deserving players than Miles, plus he's getting paid a nice chunk of change either way.

mth123
04-02-2010, 07:36 PM
Keep in mind one of them is only going to be up until April 11th. I just don't know why'd you would make room on the roster for Castillo if he's only going to be up until the 11th. Just give that spot to Francisco and send him down in a week.

Fay could be wrong too.

Or Fay is counting Leake and we're reading too much into it.

reds44
04-02-2010, 07:37 PM
Castillo, Burke, and (sadly) Balentin too.


Players have taken the field for stretching/BP. Still in the clubhouse packing up their stuff was Aaron Miles, Wilkin Castillo, Chris Burke and Wladimir Balentien. Again, nothing has been announced. It would appear that Miles was released, which means the club is eating his $2.7 million salary for 2010.

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/04/leake_is_reds_5th_starter.html

So, uh, who is the other non-roster player?

mth123
04-02-2010, 07:38 PM
Castillo, Burke, and (sadly) Balentin too.



http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/04/leake_is_reds_5th_starter.html

So, uh, who is the other non-roster player?

Lehr?

Reds Fanatic
04-02-2010, 07:39 PM
Balentin is the first bad move of the day. He really deserved to make it.

reds44
04-02-2010, 07:39 PM
johnfayman Burton optioned. #reds
So Lincon and Ondrusek are going to make it?

OnBaseMachine
04-02-2010, 07:40 PM
How in the heck can you cut Balentien? That's stupid. Give me Balentien over Laynce Nix any day of the week.

Jared Burton was optioned to Louisville. Did Logan Ondrusek make it?

OnBaseMachine
04-02-2010, 07:41 PM
Mike Lincoln needs to be sent packing along with Miles.

reds44
04-02-2010, 07:41 PM
I'd take Balentin over Nix, but they kept Nix because he is a power left hander off the bench.

mth123
04-02-2010, 07:42 PM
I'd take Balentin over Nix, but they kept Nix because he is a power right hander off the bench.

Left hander, but yeah.

reds44
04-02-2010, 07:42 PM
Left hander, but yeah.
Errr that's what I meant.

Ron Madden
04-02-2010, 07:43 PM
Miles has been cut.

Wow. Imagine that the Reds are being ran like a real major league club.

Kc61
04-02-2010, 07:44 PM
So now a team announces cuts by guys dressing in street clothes?

Announce something already. Use words.

TheNext44
04-02-2010, 07:44 PM
I'm just hoping Balentien either got traded, or made it through waivers.

OnBaseMachine
04-02-2010, 07:44 PM
The Reds are seriously going to keep Miguel Cairo over Balentien? I knew the Reds would have to make at least one bad decision before the season started.

mth123
04-02-2010, 07:45 PM
So now a team announces cuts by guys dressing in street clothes?

Announce something already. Use words.

Agree. Maybe some of these guys are going on the DL and packing for Cincy.

reds44
04-02-2010, 07:46 PM
The Reds are seriously going to keep Miguel Cairo over Balentien? I knew the Reds would have to make at least one bad decision before the season started.
You only want one backup infielder and no real backup 1st baseman?

OnBaseMachine
04-02-2010, 07:47 PM
You only want one backup infielder and no real backup 1st baseman?

No. I want Wladimir Balentien to make the team as the 5th outfielder with Drew Sutton and Paul Janish as the backup infielders.

my bench:

OF Wladimir Balentien
OF Jonny Gomes
IF Drew Sutton
IF Paul Janish
C Ryan Hanigan

mth123
04-02-2010, 07:47 PM
You only want one backup infielder and no real backup 1st baseman?

Janish, Sutton. No problem. Cairo's glove isn't what it once was. He's not much better than Sutton these days.

reds44
04-02-2010, 07:48 PM
No. I want Wladimir Balentien to make the team as the 5th outfielder with Drew Sutton and Paul Janish as the backup infielders.
Well yeah, I would have kept Balentin too, but that doesn't really relate to Cairo.

Ron Madden
04-02-2010, 07:52 PM
The Reds are seriously going to keep Miguel Cairo over Balentien? I knew the Reds would have to make at least one bad decision before the season started.

That certainly qualifies as a bad decision.

mth123
04-02-2010, 07:52 PM
Well yeah, I would have kept Balentin too, but that doesn't really relate to Cairo.

Janish, Sutton, Cairo, Dickerson and Nix suggests an 11 man Staff with Leake joining a week from now. Seems like the team could have stashed Cairo for a week or two while trying to work out a deal for Wlad. Of course, with no announcements yet, maybe they did. Somebody else goes soon though.

reds44
04-02-2010, 07:52 PM
Francisco and Ondrusek DID make the team.

johnfayman Here's who made it: Ondrusek, Francisco, Cairo, Leake. Who didnt: Balentien, Miles. They're technically on roster but wont be on team. #reds
I have no idea what that last sentence means.

TheNext44
04-02-2010, 07:55 PM
Francisco and Ondrusek DID make the team.

I have no idea what that last sentence mean.

Means they've been DFA's. They are on the roster, as of now, but won't be coming north on Opening Day.

reds44
04-02-2010, 07:55 PM
CincinnatiReds Optioned to Louisville Burton, Chapman, Maloney, Wood, Sutton; reassigned Lehr, Castillo, Burke; released Wells.

reds44
04-02-2010, 07:56 PM
http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/04/whos_in_whos_out.html

OnBaseMachine
04-02-2010, 07:56 PM
From Mark Sheldon:


INF Aaron Miles and OF Wladimir Balentien were told they won't make the team. Walt Jocketty said he would work to trade them.

Juan Francisco made the team as an extra infielder, as did Miguel Cairo. RHP Logan Ondrusek made it and essentially took Burton's spot.

The camp still stands at 28 players. Cairo, Mike Leake and OF Laynce Nix still have to be added to the 40-man roster. Miles and Balentien count for two spots. Leake will remain in camp until he's needed to start (likely on April 11) and another move will be needed.


http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/04/whos_in_whos_out.html

mth123
04-02-2010, 07:57 PM
Francisco and Ondrusek DID make the team.

I have no idea what that last sentence means.

This can't be right unless some guys are going on the DL. Can't have Francisco, Nix, Cairo, Sutton, Janish, Dickerson/Gomes and Hanigan all on the bench.

Let me be the first to ask. Is Rolen healthy?

reds44
04-02-2010, 07:57 PM
This can't be right unless some guys are going on the DL. Can't have Francisco, Nix, Cairo, Sutton, Janish, Dickerson/Gomes and Hanigan all on the bench.

Let me be the first to ask. Is Rolen healthy?
Sutton didn't make the team, and I think Francisco will go down when Leake is activated.

_Sir_Charles_
04-02-2010, 07:58 PM
I understand that some are ticked that they cut Wlad, but looking at who they kept, I totally understand the move. When they play Francisco, they're wanting it to be in left and at third. Janish can back up SS. Cairo is for 2nd & 1st. Putting Balentien on the team left us with no backup for 2nd or 1st AND it cuts into playing time for Francisco in left. Unfortunate, but that's what happens when you've got legitimate competitions for spots AND legitimate talent. Nice problem to have, but it leads to an unfortunate outcome for some.

TheNext44
04-02-2010, 07:59 PM
This can't be right unless some guys are going on the DL. Can't have Francisco, Nix, Cairo, Sutton, Janish, Dickerson/Gomes and Hanigan all on the bench.

Let me be the first to ask. Is Rolen healthy?

11 man pitching staff, 14 position players. One position player will be sent down when Leake is called up.

OnBaseMachine
04-02-2010, 08:00 PM
Can someone explain why the Reds would keep Miguel Cairo? Let's see here: He's almost 36 years old, owns a career .672 OPS in the majors, .692 OPS in the minors, and had a terrible spring .214/.283/.333 - .616 OPS. He has no business being anywhere near the Opening Day roster.

Hopefully the Reds can get a solid return for Balentien. I honestly have no idea why he was cut.

And why is Mike Lincoln still around? If you can eat Miles' salary then you can eat Lincoln's too.

traderumor
04-02-2010, 08:00 PM
It doesn't make any sense to me to lose Wlad for a week of Francisco if that is the plan.

TheNext44
04-02-2010, 08:02 PM
Basically they kept Nix over Wlad. Can't understand why.

Cairo won the backup infielder spot. Can't complain, can't rejoice.

Ondrusek beat out Burton. Like it.

Leake beat out Wood. Can't complain, kinda excited by it.

Francisco as extra bat for a week until Leake comes up. Like it

TheNext44
04-02-2010, 08:03 PM
It doesn't make any sense to me to lose Wlad for a week of Francisco if that is the plan.

They would lose him after the week if they plan to send him down then. Much easier to move a guy now, than a week into the season.

OnBaseMachine
04-02-2010, 08:04 PM
From Fay:

The Reds will re-assign Leake to minor league camp tomorrow. Miles and Balentien will be designated for assignment on Sunday. The Reds will select the contracts of Cairo and Nix then.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/04/02/heres-the-cuts-explanation/

TheNext44
04-02-2010, 08:07 PM
Can someone explain why the Reds would keep Miguel Cairo? Let's see here: He's almost 36 years old, owns a career .672 OPS in the majors, .692 OPS in the minors, and had a terrible spring .214/.283/.333 - .616 OPS. He has no business being anywhere near the Opening Day roster.

Hopefully the Reds can get a solid return for Balentien. I honestly have no idea why he was cut.

And why is Mike Lincoln still around? If you can eat Miles' salary then you can eat Lincoln's too.

Cairo was kept as the backup infielder. He beat out Burke, Miles and Sutton.

Wlad was not going to make no matter who the Reds chose between those guys.

Ron Madden
04-02-2010, 08:08 PM
It doesn't make any sense to me to lose Wlad for a week of Francisco if that is the plan.

Doesn't make sense to me either.

OnBaseMachine
04-02-2010, 08:09 PM
Cairo was kept as the backup infielder. He beat out Burke, Miles and Sutton.


Cairo was the second least deserving of those four behind only Aaron Miles.

Kc61
04-02-2010, 08:09 PM
Let's see if I have this correct.

Bench is Cairo, Francisco, Janish, Nix, Dickerson (consider Gomes starter), Hanigan.

Bullpen is Cordero, Masset, Herrera, Rhodes, Lincoln, Ondrusek, Owings.

Right?

mth123
04-02-2010, 08:10 PM
Cairo was kept as the backup infielder. He beat out Burke, Miles and Sutton.

Wlad was not going to make no matter who the Reds chose between those guys.

Personally, I like Sutton more than Wlad. Like 'em both more than Cairo and Nix.

Maybe the stay with 11 Pitchers and Lincoln goes when Leake gets added.

TheNext44
04-02-2010, 08:12 PM
Cairo was the second least deserving of those four behind only Aaron Miles.

For me, it was like deciding between Spam, grilled Spam, baked Spam, Spam with a side of Spam and Spam.

edabbs44
04-02-2010, 08:13 PM
I know it isn't something we are used to, but these guys know what they are doing.

Kc61
04-02-2010, 08:13 PM
Personally, I like Sutton more than Wlad. Like 'em both more than Cairo and Nix.

Maybe the stay with 11 Pitchers and Lincoln goes when Leake gets added.

Reds haven't used 11 pitchers in years. They are more likely to use 13.

Cairo or Francisco will go down when Leake comes up.

mth123
04-02-2010, 08:14 PM
Reds haven't used 11 pitchers in years. They are more likely to use 13.

Cairo or Francisco will go down when Leake comes up.

Think you're right. Just hoping.

lollipopcurve
04-02-2010, 08:14 PM
I'm happy with all the moves overall. Would have preferred to see Sutton over Cairo, but it's not like Sutton would have seen the field much.

Big plusses for me are the release of Miles and keeping Ondrusek over Burton. Leake making it is definitely cool. And I like that Francisco will be around, at least for a few games.

Maybe they'll get something for Wlad. I don't think we'll be missing him a year from now.

RedsManRick
04-02-2010, 08:18 PM
Can someone explain why the Reds would keep Miguel Cairo? Let's see here: He's almost 36 years old, owns a career .672 OPS in the majors, .692 OPS in the minors, and had a terrible spring .214/.283/.333 - .616 OPS. He has no business being anywhere near the Opening Day roster.

Veteran leadership. Jocketty and Dusty have both been talking up the importance of having guys who have been there before.

I certainly would like to have kept Balentien instead of Nix, Sutton instead of Cairo, and anybody instead of Mike Lincoln. But at the end of the day, none of these differences are big enough to make a significant difference. This team will succeed or fail because of the first 20 guys, not the last 5.

For Balentien, I could see a trade for a PTBNL, possibly with Florida, who is desperately short in the OF with Cody Ross maybe headed to the DL.

edabbs44
04-02-2010, 08:21 PM
Veteran leadership. Jocketty and Dusty have both been talking up the importance of having guys who have been there before.

For a 25th man, it could be worse.

pahster
04-02-2010, 08:27 PM
For a 25th man, it could be worse.

Certainly not by much. Cairo doesn't offer much in the way of baseball skills relative to his peers.

_Sir_Charles_
04-02-2010, 08:29 PM
Between Sutton, Miles, Cairo & Burke...it most likely came down to who played what position best. Of the 3, who plays 1st best? 2nd?

Miles & Burke just don't really fit our needs from what I can see. So that leaves Sutton & Cairo. Has anybody seen either of those guys play 1st defensively?

edabbs44
04-02-2010, 08:31 PM
Certainly not by much. Cairo doesn't offer much in the way of baseball skills relative to his peers.

The other MI candidates who mean anything are still in the organization. This doesn't have to be a permanent move.

If we have learned anything it's that this current regime has a clue on how to build a baseball team. Jocketty knows more about constructing a winning organization than we do. He has my trust.

Orenda
04-02-2010, 08:31 PM
my one complaint is keeping Nix and Francisco. Both are lefties with pop who are allergic to 1st and would seemingly be used in platoon/backup role.

In regards to Cairo, at least he doesn't have a contract that would keep him on the roster longer than his production justifies.

mth123
04-02-2010, 08:32 PM
Between Sutton, Miles, Cairo & Burke...it most likely came down to who played what position best. Of the 3, who plays 1st best? 2nd?

Miles & Burke just don't really fit our needs from what I can see. So that leaves Sutton & Cairo. Has anybody seen either of those guys play 1st defensively?

Cairo plays 1B better, but its such a small consideration its nuts if that was the decision point. If defense is what you want, put Janish there. I think this is about some guys thinking that Cairo can still play SS. He can't. Not that Sutton can very well, but I'd go with the younger guy with more upside in this case. Maybe they want Sutton playing every day.

_Sir_Charles_
04-02-2010, 08:32 PM
Sutton...8 career games at 1st
Cairo...127 career games at 1st

That alone might've been the difference. I don't think Janish has EVER been at 1st (could be wrong of course).

Both of them can cover 2nd. In terms of their bats...not that much difference. Cairo can bring much more experience too. Besides, if Cairo busts...we've still got Sutton in Louisville. Kinda hard to complain about this choice IMO.

In terms of Wlad...I'd guess it came down to handedness between he and Nix. That and they see more power potential with Nix. Again, tough one to judge. Whichever one they choose to not keep...they basically lose.

TheNext44
04-02-2010, 08:33 PM
Certainly not by much. Cairo doesn't offer much in the way of baseball skills relative to his peers.

Unfortunately, neither did any of the guys he was competing against.

mth123
04-02-2010, 08:35 PM
Between Sutton, Miles, Cairo & Burke...it most likely came down to who played what position best. Of the 3, who plays 1st best? 2nd?

Miles & Burke just don't really fit our needs from what I can see. So that leaves Sutton & Cairo. Has anybody seen either of those guys play 1st defensively?

Adam Rosales is better than all of them. Signing Willy. The gift that keeps on giving.

pahster
04-02-2010, 08:38 PM
Unfortunately, neither did any of the guys he was competing against.

Drew Sutton has an .820 OPS for his minor league career and is 10 years younger than Cairo, so...

But edabbs is right; he's still in the organization. It just seems silly to give a roster spot to an inferior player. The exception is if Jocketty et al. feel that Sutton could use some more time in the minors. Then it makes sense. Not sure why they'd think that, though. He's 26 and has a career .835 OPS in AAA.

_Sir_Charles_
04-02-2010, 08:38 PM
Adam Rosales is better than all of them. Signing Willy. The gift that keeps on giving.

True. But so is Frazier. But considering how little playing time that spot will most likely get, I think I'd rather have Frazier playing regularly. Same could be said for Sutton. In L'ville he can play quite often.

Lots of options...few spots. Somebody's not going to be happy either way. Fans AND players.

IslandRed
04-02-2010, 08:39 PM
Cairo plays 1B better, but its such a small consideration its nuts if that was the decision point. If defense is what you want, put Janish there. I think this is about some guys thinking that Cairo can still play SS. He can't. Not that Sutton can very well, but I'd go with the younger guy with more upside in this case. Maybe they want Sutton playing every day.

I don't think the shortstop factor played into it, given that Janish made the team. I think they were looking for a backup infielder that could spot-start if necessary at the other three positions, and felt Cairo fit that profile better than Sutton. Not necessarily saying I agree with it, and I would rather have Sutton's bat when it comes to pinch-hitting, but it's not a big deal to me. Barring injury there's not much playing time involved here.

redsmetz
04-02-2010, 08:47 PM
I know some others have said this, but I wonder if some trade or another is going to come down between now and Monday. Certainly, if Balentien's out of options (as I think he is), he has to clear and then we have ten days, don't we, to move him. Plus, I have to wonder what more Maloney has to prove at AAA. If some value can come from him, I'm fine with that.

mth123
04-02-2010, 08:53 PM
I think the Cairo spot will play more than people think, Rolen will need frequent time off. Maybe Janish plays SS and Cabrera moves over, but Sutton's bat (especially since he can hit lefty and Rolen showed some splits last year) would fit well spotting in there against a tough RHP when Rolen needs a day off.

Kc61
04-02-2010, 09:00 PM
I don't think the shortstop factor played into it, given that Janish made the team. I think they were looking for a backup infielder that could spot-start if necessary at the other three positions, and felt Cairo fit that profile better than Sutton. Not necessarily saying I agree with it, and I would rather have Sutton's bat when it comes to pinch-hitting, but it's not a big deal to me. Barring injury there's not much playing time involved here.

I think they kept Cairo to provide an experienced major league role player. The Reds seem to want a veteran bench consisting of true role players. They didn't keep developmental players for the bench. Francisco is the exception but may not stay long, as others have said.

The only shocker I see is Balentien. Nix always fit better, the team has few lefty bats and Nix provides one for the bench. But Balentien seemed too talented to lose, and now may be lost.

Caveat Emperor
04-02-2010, 09:10 PM
The only shocker I see is Balentien. Nix always fit better, the team has few lefty bats and Nix provides one for the bench. But Balentien seemed too talented to lose, and now may be lost.

He's an interesting prospect, but the Reds have interesting prospects of their own throughout the system -- I'm not going to shed a ton of tears for a corner outfield prospect who is out of options.

The fact is, Balentien was traded to the Reds for the talent equivalent of a used bag of baseballs (ML reliever Robert Manuel). He's got upside, but he's hardly a "too talented to lose" type player.

HeatherC1212
04-02-2010, 09:17 PM
When we're all arguing and disagreeing about players that aren't going to see the majority of the playing time, maybe it means the main team isn't so bad after all, LOL ;)

I'm glad Ondrusek made the team and I'm excited to see Leake pitch in a Reds uniform.

mth123
04-02-2010, 09:18 PM
He's an interesting prospect, but the Reds have interesting prospects of their own throughout the system -- I'm not going to shed a ton of tears for a corner outfield prospect who is out of options.

The fact is, Balentien was traded to the Reds for the talent equivalent of a used bag of baseballs (ML reliever Robert Manuel). He's got upside, but he's hardly a "too talented to lose" type player.

Quinton McCracken (Cairo) for Cody Ross (Wlad). There is a COF that the team had and this team would be much better if he was still around,

Will M
04-02-2010, 09:19 PM
Dropping Balentien is a terrible move. Just atrocious.
Balentien hits RHP better than LHP.
Balentien is better than Nix.
Balentien may have a future in the bigs whereas Nix is close to having to get a real job.
Balentien >>>> Nix.

I am very suprised by this move. I suspect Walt wants ABs that Balentien would have gotten to go to Francisco. If Francisco is going to AAA when Leake is activated then I am totally lost on what Walt is thinking.

OnBaseMachine
04-02-2010, 09:23 PM
From Fay - Jocketty, Baker on the moves


Baker:

–On Francisco: We’ll work him at first base, third, some in left field. He’s a dangerous threat off the bench. The combination of him and Nix and when Gomes isn’t playing gives me some thunder of f the bench.”

–On Burton: “We want to go down and get himself together. We’re going to need this guy.”


follow the link for the rest:
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/04/02/jocketty-baker-on-the-moves/

Will M
04-02-2010, 09:37 PM
Is this right?
Hernandez, Hanigan
Votto, Phillips, Cabrera, Rolen, Janish, Francisco, Cairo
Bruce, Stubbs, Dickerson, Gomes, Nix
Arroyo, Cueto, Bailey, Harang, Leake
Cordero, Rhodes, Masset, Herrera, Ondrusek, Owings & Lincoln.

Is there any word on who goes when Leake is activated? I'm guessing its Cairo based on Dusty's high praise for Francisco. As well as the fact that Cairo isn't very good.

Why is Lincoln on the team? I would have gone with Maloney here. He had a good 2009 in AAA. He's 9th on the depth chart for starters. whats he gonna do in AAA? wait to be traded? i don't get this move.

RED VAN HOT
04-02-2010, 09:38 PM
An advantage to keeping Francisco for a week is that the Reds will probably see five RH pitchers in their series with the Cardinals and Brewers (two #1's). He may get a chance to make a difference in one of those games.

The Reds have given Balentien a good shot. I suspect it came down to his failure to show the power they thought was there. I still think the potential is there. He needs playing time. Here's hoping he is not claimed.

mth123
04-02-2010, 09:41 PM
Is this right?
Hernandez, Hanigan
Votto, Phillips, Cabrera, Rolen, Janish, Francisco, Cairo
Bruce, Stubbs, Dickerson, Gomes, Nix
Arroyo, Cueto, Bailey, Harang, Leake
Cordero, Rhodes, Masset, Herrera, Ondrusek, Owings & Lincoln.

Is there any word on who goes when Leake is activated? I'm guessing its Cairo based on Dusty's high praise for Francisco. As well as the fact that Cairo isn't very good.

Why is Lincoln on the team? I would have gone with Maloney here. He had a good 2009 in AAA. He's 9th on the depth chart for starters. whats he gonna do in AAA? wait to be traded? i don't get this move.

I think Maloney either goes down and gets stretched out so he can be ready if needed or tries to adjust to being a reliever.

Spring~Fields
04-02-2010, 09:45 PM
I know it isn't something we are used to, but these guys know what they are doing.

I really like what they have done with their choices, I think that they did a really good job.

Spring~Fields
04-02-2010, 09:48 PM
Veteran leadership. Jocketty and Dusty have both been talking up the importance of having guys who have been there before.



You're right.

That’s why we brought Miles, Burke and Cairo in here. We wanted guys with playoff experience. He knows what it takes to win.”
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/

Kc61
04-02-2010, 09:52 PM
Why is Lincoln on the team? I would have gone with Maloney here. He had a good 2009 in AAA. He's 9th on the depth chart for starters. whats he gonna do in AAA? wait to be traded? i don't get this move.

The Reds have always liked Lincoln. They signed him coming off a serious injury. After a mixed season with them, they gave him a two-year deal.

Lincoln throws pretty hard and now has been stretched out for longer relief. If healthy, he can be effective, but it's certainly a risk to keep him on the club.

Not surprised, though. Reds just like his arm and keep giving him chances.

RedsManRick
04-02-2010, 10:03 PM
From Fay - Jocketty, Baker on the moves



follow the link for the rest:
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/04/02/jocketty-baker-on-the-moves/

Who needs to get on base when you can hit homers once in a blue moon I guess... Dusty, continuing to manage to the rare confluence of circumstances instead of every day situations.

edabbs44
04-02-2010, 10:10 PM
Who needs to get on base when you can hit homers once in a blue moon I guess... Dusty, continuing to manage to the rare confluence of circumstances instead of every day situations.

Isn't that kind of what a bench player is about, getting involved in certain circumstances versus every day playing?

TheNext44
04-02-2010, 10:15 PM
I think these moves, especially keeping Nix over Wlad, is a sign that Dickerson will get a lot of playing time. If he wasn't, then he would be the LH off the bench. But if he is playing LF against most RHP, the Reds need another LH bat off the bench. At least I hope that's the reasoning. :-)

RedsManRick
04-02-2010, 10:15 PM
Isn't that kind of what a bench player is about, getting involved in certain circumstances versus every day playing?

To an extent. But if you send a guy to the plate expecting a homer, you're going to be awfully disappointed most of the time. I don't see how Juan Fransisco is helped by getting only occasional at bats in which he'll be expected to get an extra base hit. That sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

TheNext44
04-02-2010, 10:26 PM
Who needs to get on base when you can hit homers once in a blue moon I guess... Dusty, continuing to manage to the rare confluence of circumstances instead of every day situations.

I have always thought that the main purpse of a PH was to get on base. Rarely is he needed to hit a homer, usually just to keep the inning going. Guess Baker and Jocketty see it differently.

RedsManRick
04-02-2010, 10:27 PM
I have always thought that the main purpse of a PH was to get on base. Rarely is he needed to hit a homer, usually just to keep the inning going. Guess Baker and Jocketty see it differently.

Exactly -- and we kept the two guys who will likely put up sub .300 OBP. I'm not going to get too worked up over the back of the roster, and I realize Fransisco is AAA bound when Leake comes up, but still.

Tony Cloninger
04-02-2010, 10:39 PM
Veteran experience!!

Picture a GM in the off season of 1976...saying I am going to trade for Bill Plummer and install him as my starting catcher beacuse he knows how to win and knows what it takes to win.

Heck...the Braves traded for Chaney after 1975 and started him beacuse of his experience and winning know how.

IslandRed
04-02-2010, 10:54 PM
I think these moves, especially keeping Nix over Wlad, is a sign that Dickerson will get a lot of playing time. If he wasn't, then he would be the LH off the bench. But if he is playing LF against most RHP, the Reds need another LH bat off the bench. At least I hope that's the reasoning. :-)

Yep. I've always said that in the National League, "left-handed pinch hitter" is pretty close to an everyday job, and I'm not surprised in the least we kept someone for that role. Wish it was someone with a better OBP than Nix, but you never know what might come across the waiver wire this weekend.

corkedbat
04-02-2010, 10:54 PM
Keeping Nix over Balentein only makes sense if its because he's a lefty and JF is indeed a short timer. I hate losing Wlad's potential, but I believe the die was cast the day that Gomes re-upped.

Not a Cairo fan.

Tony Cloninger
04-02-2010, 11:01 PM
IF Balentin goes to FLA and he turns into Cody Ross Part 2....or what's his name from TB....will the Reds quit trading players without at least giving them more than a 2 month look?

Nix would be great as a LH PH if he was Smokey Burgess or Art Shamsky or Jerry Lynch. Maybe they catch the 1969 version of Shamsky or the 1958 version of Lynch.

alexad
04-02-2010, 11:11 PM
Giving Franciso a spot for a week is not a bad thing. Keep him hungry. Give him a chance to experience the bigs before the AAA season gets started. I think Nix proved his value to this team last year off the bench and in spot starts when needed. He has the experience to step in if Bruce starts slow or gets hurt again. He did a decent job as a pinch hitter. In fact may have been the best pinch hitter we had in clutch situations. So I can see why he made the team. Vlad has been given time and chances. If he did not have chances, he would still have options??

This team is going to have a ton of big decisions to make in the next several months. Volq coming off the DL. Woods pitching his butt off in AAA and Champman being called up. I honestly think Harang is on his last leg. Something is wrong with him. Cueto still scares me as a pitcher. So there is two spots to be taken. I think Homer pitches beyond well this year. The heat is on him with the other guys who are his age pitching well this spring and wanting a piece of the action.

I say if Homer struggles in his first couple of starts, we may never see him again in Cincy. Too much talent wanting to be in the rotation.

flyer85
04-02-2010, 11:18 PM
that is not a good group of OFs.

Cedric
04-02-2010, 11:47 PM
Lets be real here. The 25th man is going to be arguable on any team. It's just great chatter on a website.

Will M
04-02-2010, 11:49 PM
Keeping Nix over Balentein only makes sense if its because he's a lefty and JF is indeed a short timer. I hate losing Wlad's potential, but I believe the die was cast the day that Gomes re-upped.

Not a Cairo fan.

Balentien hits RHP much better than LHP and also much better than Nix.
Instead of thinking of Balentien as a typical RH hitter you should actually think of him more as a LH hitter. Confusing I know.

Reasons to keep Nix over Balentien:
1. as has been pointed out it means Dickerson gets more ABs. that means the ABs for the 5th outfielder are basically as a pinch hitter. if the team feels Nix does this better than Balentien then I could see why they kept him.
2. Nix has more power than Balentien (even though he will post a lower OPS). if this was a reason they kept Nix then the Reds are stupid.
3. these are the only reasons i can think of for why we kept Nix

As to Cairo getting any significant playing time. Yikes!
Seriously, since most of the guys competing for the backup IF spot (besides janish) stunk this spring Cairo is really no worse than anybody else.
However, if the team feels Frazier isn't ready then maybe we ought to trade for a backup infielder. if we could swing a deal involving Wlad or even Maloney for a decent guy that would help the 2010 team.

Kc61
04-03-2010, 12:00 AM
Reasons to keep Nix over Balentien:
1. as has been pointed out it means Dickerson gets more ABs. that means the ABs for the 5th outfielder are basically as a pinch hitter. if the team feels Nix does this better than Balentien then I could see why they kept him.
2. Nix has more power than Balentien (even though he will post a lower OPS). if this was a reason they kept Nix then the Reds are stupid.
3. these are the only reasons i can think of for why we kept Nix

As to Cairo getting any significant playing time. Yikes!
Seriously, since most of the guys competing for the backup IF spot (besides janish) stunk this spring Cairo is really no worse than anybody else.
However, if the team feels Frazier isn't ready then maybe we ought to trade for a backup infielder. if we could swing a deal involving Wlad or even Maloney for a decent guy that would help the 2010 team.

Regardless of Balentien's splits, a team needs some lefty bats. Reds have only three. Add Nix and it's four. I'm assuming Francisco is only around for a week.

Nix also plays CF and the corners and plays them well. Wlad is a corner outfielder.

Agree that it would be advisable for Reds to consider a trade for a utility player. I felt all spring that the utility position could improve and the bullpen could use another good arm. Maybe Ondrusek will be that guy.

pahster
04-03-2010, 12:30 AM
Regardless of Balentien's splits, a team needs some lefty bats.

Why?

OnBaseMachine
04-03-2010, 12:38 AM
Mark Sheldon article - Francisco survives Reds' final 13 cuts


Baker was not concerned about Francisco getting stale and pointed out that many players on the bench are coming off having 45-60 at-bats this spring.

"It's not like they're going to be sitting around for a month and then be asked to come off the bench," Baker said. "They're still relatively sharp from playing. [Francisco] came up and did a pretty good job for us in September, but that was after 500 at-bats. And he played winter ball this year. It's not like he has any long periods of being away from the ballpark."


http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100402&content_id=9058948&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

flyer85
04-03-2010, 12:39 AM
I think these moves, especially keeping Nix over Wlad, is a sign that Dickerson will get a lot of playing time. If he wasn't, then he would be the LH off the bench. But if he is playing LF against most RHP, the Reds need another LH bat off the bench. At least I hope that's the reasoning. :-)that was my thought when I first saw the transactions. If both Gomes and Stubbs are in the lineup there is no RH pop on the bench.

Ron Madden
04-03-2010, 12:58 AM
I have always thought that the main purpse of a PH was to get on base. Rarely is he needed to hit a homer, usually just to keep the inning going. Guess Baker and Jocketty see it differently.

I think the main purpose of any hitter is to get on base.

OnBaseMachine
04-03-2010, 01:13 AM
GOODYEAR, Ariz. - Utilityman Miguel Cairo was calling home like a rookie making it for the first time - not a 14-year veteran.

Cairo, 35, was one of the surprises to make the Reds' final roster.

"This is special," he said. "I thought I had a slight chance. I'm very happy."


rest of article:
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100402/SPT04/4030358/1071/Veteran+Cairo+thrilled+to+make+the+team

Nasty_Boy
04-03-2010, 01:16 AM
Not really that shook up about any of the moves... I do think letting Wlad walk could turn out to be a move we second guess. The only thing I hate is a guy like Cairo earning/being handed a bench spot because some intagible reason. He was on some playoff teams but I think he was more lucky to be in the right spot at the right time. I just hope he doesn't see much time.

SirFelixCat
04-03-2010, 01:46 AM
Good news pretty much all around. I am :lol: at the hand-wringing over Cairo and Balentin. Cairo is not going to see the field much and Balentin or Nix...I really don't mind keeping either. A year from now, we're not going to care that we didn't keep Balentin, imo.

Captain Hook
04-03-2010, 04:10 AM
Drew Sutton has an .820 OPS for his minor league career and is 10 years younger than Cairo, so...

But edabbs is right; he's still in the organization. It just seems silly to give a roster spot to an inferior player. The exception is if Jocketty et al. feel that Sutton could use some more time in the minors. Then it makes sense. Not sure why they'd think that, though. He's 26 and has a career .835 OPS in AAA.

My guess is that Cairo sits on the bench a bunch and falls short in what few chances he does get.This won't make much of an impact one way or another when it comes to where the Reds stand in July.While it would be better to have a top notch bench guy as your 25th man I don't think many teams have that guy on their roster on opening day.

IMO the perfect 25th man can be found in the 2nd half of the season on competing teams.This guy is usually a hungry younger player that is sharp from a full first half of ABs and playing time in the field at AAA or a vet that was acquired before the trade deadline that was playing everyday for his former team.Usually the young guy could have made a big league roster and probably should have made his current team from the start.The only problem with that is no extended period of playing time and a whole bunch of rust.

I believe that come the end of July the 25th man on this team will be someone not named Cairo and probably named Sutton and we will be better off because of the delay.

Redsfan320
04-03-2010, 07:32 AM
Wow. Just woke up to find all this. I'm thrilled. This is exactly as I hoped the roster would be. Nix over Balentin. Cairo over Burke/Miles (although he'll almost definitely be the one to go on the 11th to make room for Leake) and Ondrusek making the pen. Nice. Kinda woulda preferred to see anyone over Lincoln, but oh well. Oh, and Francisco making the team!

320

GADawg
04-03-2010, 08:25 AM
I think if you find someone who completely this roster correctly that you'll also find that he/she had correctly picked the entire NCAA brackets

PuffyPig
04-03-2010, 10:20 AM
I say if Homer struggles in his first couple of starts, we may never see him again in Cincy. Too much talent wanting to be in the rotation.

I couldn't disagree more.

Homer has as much of a chance to be our #1 starter in the coming years than any of our young pitchers.

And he will be given corresponding chances to do just that.

RANDY IN INDY
04-03-2010, 10:29 AM
I'm with you, Puffy.

Matt700wlw
04-03-2010, 10:41 AM
Lets play some ball!

mth123
04-03-2010, 10:43 AM
I couldn't disagree more.

Homer has as much of a chance to be our #1 starter in the coming years than any of our young pitchers.

And he will be given corresponding chances to do just that.

I think he'll be the number one by the end of 2010 as long as the big innings jump from 08 to 09 didn't get him. I'd say if/when they are all in and pitching at the top of their game (probably late 2011 or 2012 if no one suffers a setback) its Bailey, Chapman, Volquez, Leake, Cueto. IMO, Wood and the rest are all a big drop from those guys. Stewart was in that class, none of the others are unless some one like Buck or Lotzkar come all the way back from injury and that is very unlikely IMO.

Benihana
04-03-2010, 10:44 AM
Can't say I'm thrilled. I'm not one to get bent out of shape over the 24th or 25th men on the roster, but...

I would much prefer Balentien on the roster
I would prefer Maloney or Wood to Leake to start the season as the 5th starter
I would prefer Sutton to start in the big leagues over Cairo/Francisco

and they bother me in that order of priority. Oh well, still can't wait for Monday.

edabbs44
04-03-2010, 10:47 AM
Exactly -- and we kept the two guys who will likely put up sub .300 OBP. I'm not going to get too worked up over the back of the roster, and I realize Fransisco is AAA bound when Leake comes up, but still.


Yep. I've always said that in the National League, "left-handed pinch hitter" is pretty close to an everyday job, and I'm not surprised in the least we kept someone for that role. Wish it was someone with a better OBP than Nix, but you never know what might come across the waiver wire this weekend.

If this "LH PH" role were to get 100 PAs this season, the difference between Nix's likely OBP and say a league average OBP of .334 would be roughly 3-4 outs.

Not much to get frustrated with on a one off kind of decision like this. Especially if Nix provides better than league average power, like he did last year (.478 vs .418).

jojo
04-03-2010, 10:49 AM
It's probably not likely that Wlad will be greatly missed by the organization.

_Sir_Charles_
04-03-2010, 10:52 AM
Can someone explain why we're so sure that when Leake comes up it'll be Francisco who goes down and not Cairo? I saw the need for Cairo being a backup to 2nd and mainly 1st. But Dusty's quote said that they're going to be playing Juan at 3rd, 1st and left. Wouldn't it make more sense to send Cairo down and let Juan play more often? Just curious as to why most here think it's pre-written that Juan goes down in a week.

mth123
04-03-2010, 10:53 AM
If this "LH PH" role were to get 100 PAs this season, the difference between Nix's likely OBP and say a league average OBP of .334 would be roughly 3-4 outs.

Not much to get frustrated with on a one off kind of decision like this. Especially if Nix provides better than league average power, like he did last year (.478 vs .418).

Could we be looking at this all wrong? Maybe one of Nix/Francisco forms the power platoon with Gomes and Dickerson and his OBP is the 150 AB CF and LHPH.

I also am beginning to wonder if its a foregone conclusion that Francisco is the one going down when Leake arrives. Nix and Cairo take Miles and Balentien's spots on the 40 man. If I have it straight and if its Francisco going down, another 40 man spot needs to be cleared. Maybe Cairo is DFAd then.

Eric_the_Red
04-03-2010, 11:02 AM
Let's put some of these moves in perspective:
Last year, Darnell McDonald made the team.

_Sir_Charles_
04-03-2010, 11:12 AM
Let's put some of these moves in perspective:
Last year, Darnell McDonald made the team.

You mean the guy who went .314/.349/.539/.888 in 300+ ab's at Louisville?

For as much grief as Darnell got, he wasn't anywhere near as bad as people here made him out to be. All things considered, he had a pretty darned good season last year.

But I do get your point. :O)

redsmetz
04-03-2010, 11:14 AM
Veteran experience!!

Picture a GM in the off season of 1976...saying I am going to trade for Bill Plummer and install him as my starting catcher beacuse he knows how to win and knows what it takes to win.

Heck...the Braves traded for Chaney after 1975 and started him beacuse of his experience and winning know how.

Who among those the team kept is being installed as a starter? Really, you've sighted to bench players of the Reds. Chaney certainly was acquired by the Braves to be a starter, which he was for one season. None of the players kept for our bench is intended to be a starter. How this is this comparison apt?

Tommyjohn25
04-03-2010, 11:23 AM
Can someone explain why we're so sure that when Leake comes up it'll be Francisco who goes down and not Cairo? I saw the need for Cairo being a backup to 2nd and mainly 1st. But Dusty's quote said that they're going to be playing Juan at 3rd, 1st and left. Wouldn't it make more sense to send Cairo down and let Juan play more often? Just curious as to why most here think it's pre-written that Juan goes down in a week.

I was kinda wondering the same thing.

Tony Cloninger
04-03-2010, 11:44 AM
It's basically showing how GM's from other teams over value guys who have been there...and played on a winner. Starter or bench player.....long man in the bullpen....it does not matter...they over valued Cairo's experience over a guy like Balentin who can do more for you.
That was the point I was trying to make...in my own obviously un-humorless way.

Sutton should have been here over Francisco as well to offset not having the extra INF.

Darnell McDonald would have had to hit like Chris Jones did when he came up in 1991...in order for anyone to like him here. I did not like it when he started over Balentin....but it's not like he was Jason Romano with the bat.

IslandRed
04-03-2010, 11:50 AM
Can someone explain why we're so sure that when Leake comes up it'll be Francisco who goes down and not Cairo? I saw the need for Cairo being a backup to 2nd and mainly 1st. But Dusty's quote said that they're going to be playing Juan at 3rd, 1st and left. Wouldn't it make more sense to send Cairo down and let Juan play more often? Just curious as to why most here think it's pre-written that Juan goes down in a week.

A few reasons:

1) Francisco's still a good prospect, but he needs to keep getting regular at-bats. More than he's going to get on a team where his positions are blocked by Votto, Rolen and a platoon.

2) Speaking of which, he still has to find a permanent home defensively, and he needs regular PT for that too.

3) Cairo probably wouldn't be so happy about making the team if he was going to DFA Island a week from now. The current Reds brass shoots pretty straight, and if that was the plan, I believe they would have let Cairo know that up front.

4) It makes little sense to clear space to add Cairo to the 40-man and then dump him a week later. It's a lot less hassle if the extra bat is someone they can simply option to Louisville when the time comes.

Tommyjohn25
04-03-2010, 12:08 PM
Good call. On all accounts. Thanks Island!

Hoosier Red
04-03-2010, 12:10 PM
I also am beginning to wonder if its a foregone conclusion that Francisco is the one going down when Leake arrives. Nix and Cairo take Miles and Balentien's spots on the 40 man. If I have it straight and if its Francisco going down, another 40 man spot needs to be cleared. Maybe Cairo is DFAd then.

It could be Cairo, but remember Volquez will be on the 60 day DL to start the season too. That will open up a spot for Leake if they want.

_Sir_Charles_
04-03-2010, 12:11 PM
A few reasons:

1) Francisco's still a good prospect, but he needs to keep getting regular at-bats. More than he's going to get on a team where his positions are blocked by Votto, Rolen and a platoon.

2) Speaking of which, he still has to find a permanent home defensively, and he needs regular PT for that too.

3) Cairo probably wouldn't be so happy about making the team if he was going to DFA Island a week from now. The current Reds brass shoots pretty straight, and if that was the plan, I believe they would have let Cairo know that up front.

4) It makes little sense to clear space to add Cairo to the 40-man and then dump him a week later. It's a lot less hassle if the extra bat is someone they can simply option to Louisville when the time comes.

Quite a bit of that does indeed make some sense....but try putting it in perspective of looking at Cincy AND Louisville together. Just how many AB's is Juan going to get in Louisville? 3rd base...Frazier is there, so is Sutton & Burke and possibly a few others. 1st base...Alonso. LF...Heisey, Dorn, Frazier, Alonso, etc. Both rosters are very crowded. Quite a few of these kids are going to have to be fighting for AB's...in Cincy AND in L'ville.

It's a great problem to have, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that forming L'ville's roster will be even tougher than Cincy's.

forfreelin04
04-03-2010, 12:24 PM
Let's put some of these moves in perspective:
Last year, Darnell McDonald made the team.

You rangggggggggg!

bucksfan2
04-03-2010, 12:25 PM
A few reasons:

1) Francisco's still a good prospect, but he needs to keep getting regular at-bats. More than he's going to get on a team where his positions are blocked by Votto, Rolen and a platoon.

2) Speaking of which, he still has to find a permanent home defensively, and he needs regular PT for that too.

3) Cairo probably wouldn't be so happy about making the team if he was going to DFA Island a week from now. The current Reds brass shoots pretty straight, and if that was the plan, I believe they would have let Cairo know that up front.

4) It makes little sense to clear space to add Cairo to the 40-man and then dump him a week later. It's a lot less hassle if the extra bat is someone they can simply option to Louisville when the time comes.

1. When does the minor league season start? To me Francisco is the 26th man who is on the roster as an extra player until Leake is called up. He won't miss much, if any time at AAA and does add some power on the bench. He won't get many starts, but I think the FO is high on him, and he gets a taste of Cincinnati.

2. I don't know where he will end up defensively. A lot of it depends where Frazier and Alonso end up as well as if a trade goes down.

3. In the NL you need a guy who can play multiple positions off the bench. Cairo fills that role, probably better than Sutton. Not to mention if they were close Sutton has options and can work on something/anything down in AAA. No real loss here. If Cairo is bad he will be cut.

4. I don't see the Reds cutting Cairo by mid April. I do think we tend to think anyone can play in a bench capacity or start every 4th day and keep their career minor numbers the same. Cairo has shown the ability to be able to handle a bench role, Sutton not so much.

VR
04-03-2010, 12:33 PM
Any significant cut out there that could be attractive pickups?
(Remember when that was how the Reds found starters?)

redsmetz
04-03-2010, 01:12 PM
It could be Cairo, but remember Volquez will be on the 60 day DL to start the season too. That will open up a spot for Leake if they want.

Volquez is already on the 60 day DL. He was placed there when Gomes was signed, as I recall.

TRF
04-03-2010, 01:26 PM
Quite a bit of that does indeed make some sense....but try putting it in perspective of looking at Cincy AND Louisville together. Just how many AB's is Juan going to get in Louisville? 3rd base...Frazier is there, so is Sutton & Burke and possibly a few others. 1st base...Alonso. LF...Heisey, Dorn, Frazier, Alonso, etc. Both rosters are very crowded. Quite a few of these kids are going to have to be fighting for AB's...in Cincy AND in L'ville.

It's a great problem to have, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that forming L'ville's roster will be even tougher than Cincy's.

I think you have the AAA roster waaay wrong.

Heisey is the CF. Dorn in right and Frazier or JF in left with Alonso getting the occasional start there. 3B the same minus Alonso, and Alonso at 1B the bulk of the time. SS is Cozart, 2B Valaika. Sutton spells a few IF's occasionally. Burke is bench fodder.

I'd have kept Wlad instead of JF, and THEN DFA'd him after the season started, when 25 man rosters are solidified. Makes it more likely you keep him in the org. Nix has almost no value as he can not find 1B with a map. he is a good defender at all three OF positions though.

I think the Reds have the potential to have a very bad offensive OF. Nix doesn't help, and JF is a temporary measure at best.

traderumor
04-03-2010, 01:54 PM
Let's put some of these moves in perspective:
Last year, Darnell McDonald made the team.

I don't know that Cairo making the team is much of an upgrade over McDonald. At least Cairo is not going to be in the OD lineup (don't get sick, Votto).

_Sir_Charles_
04-03-2010, 02:34 PM
I think you have the AAA roster waaay wrong.

Heisey is the CF. Dorn in right and Frazier or JF in left with Alonso getting the occasional start there. 3B the same minus Alonso, and Alonso at 1B the bulk of the time. SS is Cozart, 2B Valaika. Sutton spells a few IF's occasionally. Burke is bench fodder.

I'd have kept Wlad instead of JF, and THEN DFA'd him after the season started, when 25 man rosters are solidified. Makes it more likely you keep him in the org. Nix has almost no value as he can not find 1B with a map. he is a good defender at all three OF positions though.

I think the Reds have the potential to have a very bad offensive OF. Nix doesn't help, and JF is a temporary measure at best.

More than likely I do have it way wrong. I didn't go into depth on it. I'm just seeing a lot of players deserving of Louisville slots and quite a few of them all for the same positions.

I see a few solid spots that are somewhat set for L'ville. Valiaka for 2nd, Cozart for short, Heisey for center. That's about it (other than C and pitchers). Dorn can be either corner IMO. Francisco, Alonso & Frazier are all being juggled for several spots. I don't think Alonso will get strictly 1B starts because the Reds clearly see him blocked with Votto and they're going to need to see if he can handle different spots (3rd & LF specifically). In regards to Juan, do they see him as Rolen's future replacement? Or a LF'er? What in the world do they do with Frazier? I think they've come to the conclusion that he's not a SS anymore. But 2nd? I don't think so. 1st? Is his bat big enough for 1st? Is his athleticism wasted at 1st? I think so. LF? 3rd? The same spots being scouted out for Alonso & Francisco. Letting Juan work out his kinks in Cincy gives Alonso & Frazier more opportunities to work on 3rd & LF in Louisville. Those 3 guys are a jumbled mess that simply HAS to be worked out this season before they really lose value in terms of trades and such.

Ron Madden
04-03-2010, 02:39 PM
I would have chosen Balentien over Nix and Sutton over Cairo.

TheNext44
04-03-2010, 02:46 PM
It's probably not likely that Wlad will be greatly missed by the organization.

Spoken like a true Mariners fan. :p:

mth123
04-03-2010, 03:00 PM
It could be Cairo, but remember Volquez will be on the 60 day DL to start the season too. That will open up a spot for Leake if they want.

Already used that spot on Gomes.

mth123
04-03-2010, 03:09 PM
A few reasons:

1) Francisco's still a good prospect, but he needs to keep getting regular at-bats. More than he's going to get on a team where his positions are blocked by Votto, Rolen and a platoon.

2) Speaking of which, he still has to find a permanent home defensively, and he needs regular PT for that too.

3) Cairo probably wouldn't be so happy about making the team if he was going to DFA Island a week from now. The current Reds brass shoots pretty straight, and if that was the plan, I believe they would have let Cairo know that up front.

4) It makes little sense to clear space to add Cairo to the 40-man and then dump him a week later. It's a lot less hassle if the extra bat is someone they can simply option to Louisville when the time comes.

1. Francisco may play a lot more than you think. Between LF and 3B he may be in there against all RHP.

2. Maybe. Doesn't seem to be an issue with this management group. Frazier and Valaika haven't spent much time where they'll likely be. Alonso now getting moved around too.

3. Not sure on Cairo. I doubt getting him another week of service time helps him much, so its a good point.

4. But they need to clear the space for Leake anyway. So they DFA Wlad and move Cairo in for a week and then activate Leake. They still needed to create a spot.

Will M
04-03-2010, 03:32 PM
Plan A: Send Francisco to AAA. Use Cairo as backup at 1B/3B

Plan B: Send Cairo to AAA. Francisco play LF vs RHP. He plays 3B when Rolen is banged up or needs a day off. Same for 1B when Votto needs a day off. Gets ~400 ABs as a rookie.

Since he played winter ball & will likely do so again next offseason its not like he'll be rotting away on the bench and missing playing time.
Plan B means a couple things. One is that Nix is basically a pinch hitter.
Two is less playing time for Dickerson if Stubbs keeps the everyday CF job.
Why play Francisco over Dickerson in LF? POWER BABY! this team needs it.

If plan B is the plan then trading/releasing Balentien makes a lot more sense.

reds44
04-03-2010, 03:35 PM
Plan A: Send Francisco to AAA. Use Cairo as backup at 1B/3B

Plan B: Send Cairo to AAA. Francisco play LF vs RHP. He plays 3B when Rolen is banged up or needs a day off. Same for 1B when Votto needs a day off. Gets ~400 ABs as a rookie.

Since he played winter ball & will likely do so again next offseason its not like he'll be rotting away on the bench and missing playing time.
Plan B means a couple things. One is that Nix is basically a pinch hitter.
Two is less playing time for Dickerson if Stubbs keeps the everyday CF job.
Why play Francisco over Dickerson in LF? POWER BABY! this team needs it.

If plan B is the plan then trading/releasing Balentien makes a lot more sense.
I'd rather have Dickerson's OB and defense than Francisco's power.

Will M
04-03-2010, 03:39 PM
Question:

Ted Lilly starts for the Cubs. Gomes play LF. Our bench is Hanigan, Janish, Francisco/Cairo, Dickerson & Nix. We as down 3-1 in the 8th. Bases juiced. One out. Masset is due up & we pinch hit with Nix or Dickerson or Francisco. Pinella removes his right handed pitcher & brings in LOOGY. We replace the LH pinch hitter with...???

Hanigan?
Janish??
Cairo??? (if he is still around)
Owings???? (who has one at bat this spring)

seems to me a bit of a weakness. if we are going to keep Francisco then the bench seems a bit left handed. if we are going to keep Cairo then Walt better get on the phone & find a better bench IF bat.

_Sir_Charles_
04-03-2010, 03:39 PM
I'd rather have Dickerson's OB and defense than Francisco's power.

I know it was just ST, but I'm not sure how many noticed that Stubbs' OBP was better than Dickerson's. I know small sample size and all. But since about the middle of last year, all I've seen is improvement from Drew.

Okay, back to Francisco. :O)

OnBaseMachine
04-03-2010, 03:40 PM
Plan A: Send Francisco to AAA. Use Cairo as backup at 1B/3B

Plan B: Send Cairo to AAA. Francisco play LF vs RHP. He plays 3B when Rolen is banged up or needs a day off. Same for 1B when Votto needs a day off. Gets ~400 ABs as a rookie.

Since he played winter ball & will likely do so again next offseason its not like he'll be rotting away on the bench and missing playing time.
Plan B means a couple things. One is that Nix is basically a pinch hitter.
Two is less playing time for Dickerson if Stubbs keeps the everyday CF job.
Why play Francisco over Dickerson in LF? POWER BABY! this team needs it.

If plan B is the plan then trading/releasing Balentien makes a lot more sense.

The Reds are in trouble if Miguel Cairo is the backup 1B/3B.

Will M
04-03-2010, 03:44 PM
I'd rather have Dickerson's OB and defense than Francisco's power.

in left field? i like Dickerson and feel he would make a fine platoon centerfielder or 4th outfielder. but as a guy who is going to get 400-450 PAs in LF his power seems incredibly weak. he had 2 home runs in 299 PAs last year. with the team searching for offense i think we need more offensive production out of LF.

note that i would have used Balentien in a 'platoon' with Gomes (Gomes vs LHP, Balentien vs RHP). Power & defense both somewhere between Dickerson and Francisco. But that water under the bridge.

reds44
04-03-2010, 03:46 PM
I know it was just ST, but I'm not sure how many noticed that Stubbs' OBP was better than Dickerson's. I know small sample size and all. But since about the middle of last year, all I've seen is improvement from Drew.

Okay, back to Francisco. :O)
I have no idea what Stubbs OBP had to do with my post.

Stubbs had a minor league OBP of .364, I expect his OBP to be high.
Dickerson had a minor league OBP of .363 and a major league OBP of .383 in 357 ABs.

Francisco has a career minor league OBP of .311.

I don't see any reason why Francisco should get Dickerson's ABs, at least not yet.

reds44
04-03-2010, 03:48 PM
in left field? i like Dickerson and feel he would make a fine platoon centerfielder or 4th outfielder. but as a guy who is going to get 400-450 PAs in LF his power seems incredibly weak. he had 2 home runs in 299 PAs last year. with the team searching for offense i think we need more offensive production out of LF.

note that i would have used Balentien in a 'platoon' with Gomes (Gomes vs LHP, Balentien vs RHP). Power & defense both somewhere between Dickerson and Francisco. But that water under the bridge.
In LF, CF, or RF Dickerson is a better option at this point over Francisco.

I wouldn't even mind Francisco stciking around as a backup 3B/1B/LF/RF, but there's no way he should steal playing time from Dickerson.

TheNext44
04-03-2010, 03:59 PM
Question:

Ted Lilly starts for the Cubs. Gomes play LF. Our bench is Hanigan, Janish, Francisco/Cairo, Dickerson & Nix. We as down 3-1 in the 8th. Bases juiced. One out. Masset is due up & we pinch hit with Nix or Dickerson or Francisco. Pinella removes his right handed pitcher & brings in LOOGY. We replace the LH pinch hitter with...???

Hanigan?
Janish??
Cairo??? (if he is still around)
Owings???? (who has one at bat this spring)

seems to me a bit of a weakness. if we are going to keep Francisco then the bench seems a bit left handed. if we are going to keep Cairo then Walt better get on the phone & find a better bench IF bat.

Come on, Janish has a .390 OBP and.632 SLG this spring. He's the RH thunder off the bench ;)

reds44
04-03-2010, 04:03 PM
Question:

Ted Lilly starts for the Cubs. Gomes play LF. Our bench is Hanigan, Janish, Francisco/Cairo, Dickerson & Nix. We as down 3-1 in the 8th. Bases juiced. One out. Masset is due up & we pinch hit with Nix or Dickerson or Francisco. Pinella removes his right handed pitcher & brings in LOOGY. We replace the LH pinch hitter with...???

Hanigan?
Janish??
Cairo??? (if he is still around)
Owings???? (who has one at bat this spring)

seems to me a bit of a weakness. if we are going to keep Francisco then the bench seems a bit left handed. if we are going to keep Cairo then Walt better get on the phone & find a better bench IF bat.
So you're saying we should have kept Balentin?

WebScorpion
04-03-2010, 04:10 PM
I think it's funny how much hair-pulling and hand-wringing goes on here about the 24&25th players on the roster. These are the guys they're breaking camp with. It's a long season...I'm sure the 24th&25th slots will change several times. We've got a lot of depth and that is a GOOD thing. PLAY BALL!! :thumbup:

Spring~Fields
04-03-2010, 04:11 PM
Most of the players on the Reds team are platoon players, most, no one said all.

Mr. Baker the manager will see that each of them gets plenty of playing time, and platoon or switch several of them in and out and around in the various positions etc.

This is the same basic group that was in the player resource pool when each of you made out your optimistic predictions in the gonelong thread.

Jocketty has done a good job with that mix that he had to choose from, now we will see if Mr. Baker can apply the resources to the team and players advantage, so what’s the problem? :)

I think each time that we and many of us do, not all, but some of us, react overly positive or overly alarmed, when the middle ground is probably a more accurate presumption and response. We are all subject to be right sometimes and wrong sometimes on each of the players.

So what’s the problem, why all the cackling, and clacking of the keyboards? :confused:

mth123
04-03-2010, 08:02 PM
I think it's funny how much hair-pulling and hand-wringing goes on here about the 24&25th players on the roster. These are the guys they're breaking camp with. It's a long season...I'm sure the 24th&25th slots will change several times. We've got a lot of depth and that is a GOOD thing. PLAY BALL!! :thumbup:

Its not so much about the 25th man, its about losing a guy with upside in favor of a 36 y/o journeyman who never had much bat and now is losing his range. People were saying the same thing when the Reds kept Quinton McCracken instead of Cody Ross. Had the Reds kept Ross, he'd probably be the starter in LF now and much of the current problem with this line-up might be resolved.

The idea that Cairo's positional utiity and vet presence can help more now than Wlad's RH POP is arguable. But clearly, Wlad has more future value for a team still building toward its window of contention.

edabbs44
04-03-2010, 08:21 PM
Its not so much about the 25th man, its about losing a guy with upside in favor of a 36 y/o journeyman who never had much bat and now is losing his range. People were saying the same thing when the Reds kept Quinton McCracken instead of Cody Ross. Had the Reds kept Ross, he'd probably be the starter in LF now and much of the current problem with this line-up might be resolved.

The idea that Cairo's positional utiity and vet presence can help more now than Wlad's RH POP is arguable. But clearly, Wlad has more future value for a team still building toward its window of contention.

The decision wasn't really Cairo vs Wlad, was it?

mth123
04-03-2010, 08:26 PM
The decision wasn't really Cairo vs Wlad, was it?

Why not? Cairo was the last guy to make it and Wlad was the guy who will be lost to make it so.

TheNext44
04-03-2010, 08:30 PM
Why not? Cairo was the last guy to make it and Wlad was the guy who will be lost to make it so.

But if they cut Cairo, they are still cutting Wlad, because they need another infielder and Wlad can't fill that role. Cairo beat out Sutton, Burke, Miles, and Castillo. Nix beat out Wlad. Still doesn't make any more sense, but I think that was the Reds thinking.

mth123
04-03-2010, 08:32 PM
But if they cut Cairo, they are still cutting Wlad, because they need another infielder and Wlad can't fill that role. Cairo beat out Sutton, Burke, Miles, and Castillo. Nix beat out Wlad. Still doesn't make any more sense, but I think that was the Reds thinking.

Francisco plays the corners and Janish can cover the middle. If JF goes down, Janish can cover the middle and Cabrera can play 3B. Gomes can play 1B. I don't see the problem.

TheNext44
04-03-2010, 08:37 PM
Francisco plays the corners and Janish can cover the middle. If JF goes down, Janish can cover the middle and Cabrera can play 3B. Gomes can play 1B. I don't see the problem.

Francisco is only going to be up for a week.

Regardless, whether he was beat out by Cairo or Nix or Francisco, it was a bad move.

_Sir_Charles_
04-03-2010, 08:37 PM
I have no idea what Stubbs OBP had to do with my post.

It didn't. It just made me remember that I saw Stubbs' OBP and was surprised by it...because I was looking at Dickerson's.

Ron Madden
04-03-2010, 08:40 PM
Francisco is only going to be up for a week.

Regardless, whether he was beat out by Cairo or Nix or Francisco, it was a bad move.


I think so too.

edabbs44
04-03-2010, 08:55 PM
Francisco is only going to be up for a week.

Regardless, whether he was beat out by Cairo or Nix or Francisco, it was a bad move.

He was also beat out by Lincoln and Hanigan.

By the way, Wlad has now been effectively released by Seattle and Cincy. For every Phillips, there are 100 other DFAed guys who never lived up to their hype.

I like Cincy's odds on this one.

TheNext44
04-03-2010, 09:00 PM
Not sure Wlad would be what they are looking for, but MLBTR reports the Yankees could be looking for outfield help. I would have to think that Wlad is an upgrade over Thames.

Yankees Looking For Outfielder? (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/04/yanks-could-be-shopping-for-outfielder-soon.html)

TheNext44
04-03-2010, 09:02 PM
He was also beat out by Lincoln and Hanigan.

By the way, Wlad has now been effectively released by Seattle and Cincy. For every Phillips, there are 100 other DFAed guys who never lived up to their hype.

I like Cincy's odds on this one.

My problem with it is that it is a lottery ticket the team didn't have to buy. I just don't see Nix being so much better, useful or productive than Wlad that they needed to risk losing Wlad in order to keep Nix.

reds44
04-03-2010, 09:05 PM
Not sure Wlad would be what they are looking for, but MLBTR reports the Yankees could be looking for outfield help. I would have to think that Wlad is an upgrade over Thames.

Yankees Looking For Outfielder? (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/04/yanks-could-be-shopping-for-outfielder-soon.html)
Thames has a career OPS of .797 in his career, while Balentin has a career .655 OPS.

I think people here are overvaluing Balentin. I wanted him to make the team because I think he has upside, but honestly his value is no more now than it was when he was DFA last year.

Will M
04-03-2010, 09:19 PM
Question:

Ted Lilly starts for the Cubs. Gomes play LF. Our bench is Hanigan, Janish, Francisco/Cairo, Dickerson & Nix. We as down 3-1 in the 8th. Bases juiced. One out. Masset is due up & we pinch hit with Nix or Dickerson or Francisco. Pinella removes his right handed pitcher & brings in LOOGY. We replace the LH pinch hitter with...???

Hanigan?
Janish??
Cairo??? (if he is still around)
Owings???? (who has one at bat this spring)

seems to me a bit of a weakness. if we are going to keep Francisco then the bench seems a bit left handed. if we are going to keep Cairo then Walt better get on the phone & find a better bench IF bat.


So you're saying we should have kept Balentin?

well yes i am but not in regards to this specific issue. this is a separate issue i see by looking at who we actually have on the bench. it just seems to me that we lack a decent RH bench bat.

Spring~Fields
04-03-2010, 10:19 PM
But if they cut Cairo, they are still cutting Wlad, because they need another infielder and Wlad can't fill that role. Cairo beat out Sutton, Burke, Miles, and Castillo. Nix beat out Wlad. Still doesn't make any more sense, but I think that was the Reds thinking.

I think that might have been answered back on December 7, 2009, maybe not.



If you don't have them and you go through that period of injuries and your bench is playing and your bench is watered down from what it was before; and we are in the process of trying to sign Nix back, and we are trying to revamp his career just like we did Gomes last year.
http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=60700

Spring~Fields
04-03-2010, 10:23 PM
well yes i am but not in regards to this specific issue. this is a separate issue i see by looking at who we actually have on the bench. it just seems to me that we lack a decent RH bench bat.

What do you mean when you say that, "a decent RH bench bat", Do you mean strictly a player that bats right handed, or are you speaking of players who hit right handed pitching, which could be either LH or RH? Don't they need primarily batters that can get on base at a higher percentage regardless of whether they are left or right handed batters?

OnBaseMachine
04-03-2010, 10:59 PM
Reds right-hander Logan Ondrusek is a little more excited about going to the majors for the first time.

“It’s a dream come true,” he said. “When I found out I made the team yesterday, I called my parents. They both started yelling and screaming. I’m pretty sure my mom started crying.”


http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100403/SPT04/304030038/1071/Bailey+rocked+in+Reds++spring+finale

Will M
04-04-2010, 12:01 AM
What do you mean when you say that, "a decent RH bench bat", Do you mean strictly a player that bats right handed, or are you speaking of players who hit right handed pitching, which could be either LH or RH? Don't they need primarily batters that can get on base at a higher percentage regardless of whether they are left or right handed batters?

i mean someone who hits left handed pitching well. typically a batter who hits right handed will hit left handed pitching better than right handed pitching. when the game is tight late & the opposing team brings in a lefty reliever we don't want Lance Nix pinch hitting. he just cannot hit left handed pitching

OPS+ vs left handed pitching in 2009:
Nix 30
Dickerson 80
Janish 53
Hanigan 96
Francisco had minimal PAs vs left handed pitching. however i would not expect a rookie left handed hitter to mash against left handed pitching.

Spring~Fields
04-04-2010, 01:09 AM
i mean someone who hits left handed pitching well. typically a batter who hits right handed will hit left handed pitching better than right handed pitching. when the game is tight late & the opposing team brings in a lefty reliever we don't want Lance Nix pinch hitting. he just cannot hit left handed pitching
OPS+ vs left handed pitching in 2009:
Nix 30
Dickerson 80
Janish 53
Hanigan 96
Francisco had minimal PAs vs left handed pitching. however i would not expect a rookie left handed hitter to mash against left handed pitching.

Thank you Will for taking the time to clarify your meaning.

I might be misinterpreting the points and intention that you, respectfully, and the other's are bringing out. Most of these guys have small samples, most of them have some sort of drawback in their abilities. I think it is tough since we are not talking about a Joey Votto for example here.

Clearly those say that you are right that they shouldn't want Nix pinch hitting or batting against LH pitching.
I can though see why he would have a preference for Nix against right handed pitching, I should say on his slugging, not OBP, plus his multi position fielding.

Usually the Reds are much better as you know against left handed pitching in general though, than they are against RH pitching.

Anyway, when I look I see this below.


3 YR SPLIT Personal Opinion
Nix OBP SLG OPS Filler
vs. Left .184 .222 .406
vs. Right .287 .471 .758

Balentien Filler
vs. Left .254 .316 .570
vs. Right .293 .399 .692

Janish Glove
vs. Left .328 .314 .642
vs. Right .273 .281 .554

Cairo Vet Experience
vs. Left .333 .351 .684
vs. Right .294 .332 .626

Hanigan Catcher
vs. Left .336 .344 .680
vs. Right .372 .340 .712

Gomes Platoon
vs. Left .341 .503 .844
vs. Right .307 .456 .763

Dickerson Platoon
vs. Left .362 .345 .707
vs. Right .387 .458 .845

I used the the 3-Yr because there are small samples sprinkled in among those numbers with the various players.

Will M
04-04-2010, 01:44 AM
Thank you Will for taking the time to clarify your meaning.

I might be misinterpreting the points and intention that you, respectfully, and the other's are bringing out. Most of these guys have small samples, most of them have some sort of drawback in their abilities. I think it is tough since we are not talking about a Joey Votto for example here.

Clearly those say that you are right that they shouldn't want Nix pinch hitting or batting against LH pitching.
I can though see why he would have a preference for Nix against right handed pitching, plus his multi position fielding.

Usually the Reds are much better as you know against left handed pitching in general though, than they are against RH pitching.

Anyway, when I look I see this below.


3 YR SPLIT Personal Opinion
Nix OBP SLG OPS Filler
vs. Left .184 .222 .406
vs. Right .287 .471 .758

Balentien Filler
vs. Left .254 .316 .570
vs. Right .293 .399 .692

Janish Glove
vs. Left .328 .314 .642
vs. Right .273 .281 .554

Cairo Vet Experience
vs. Left .333 .351 .684
vs. Right .294 .332 .626

Hanigan Catcher
vs. Left .336 .344 .680
vs. Right .372 .340 .712

Gomes Platoon
vs. Left .341 .503 .844
vs. Right .307 .456 .763

Dickerson Platoon
vs. Left .362 .345 .707
vs. Right .387 .458 .845

I used the the 3-Yr because there are small samples sprinkled in among those numbers with the various players.

i pretty much agree with your assessment of these players.

i don't like the way the bench is set up. 4 out of 5 guys are just fine on the bench.
Nix as the 5th OF & left handed pinch hitter.
Janish as a defensive sub and starter at SS when Cabrera needs a day off.
Dickerson/Gomes as guys who can platoon but not play everyday.
Hanigan as the backup catcher.

Cairo is the problem. really what use is he?
if its Cairo who stays (which i think it will be) then the bench would be fine IF we replaced Cairo with just about anyone. a guy who could play 1b, 2b & 3b with a 700 OPS would be a lot better than Cairo. Where's Adam Rosales when you need him? :D In all seriousness if Frazier or even Sutton can fill this role the team will have what it needs but neither impressed this spring.
Lets say Frazier starts tearing up AAA and replaces Cairo. He can play 3B when Rolen is banged up or needs a day off. Ditto for Votto at 1B or Phillips at 2B. When he doesn't start he can be available to pinch hit.

if its actually Francisco who stays then it seems like we have too many lefties on the bench. maybe i am making too much of this. in only ~40 games will we have to have to face a left handed starting pitcher. in those games if the game is on the line late & a LOOGY is on the mound then we'll just have to go with Owings, Hanigan or Janish. In games where we face a right handed starter then Gomes will be available to face a LOOGY later in the game.

Spring~Fields
04-04-2010, 02:32 AM
i pretty much agree with your assessment of these players.

i don't like the way the bench is set up. 4 out of 5 guys are just fine on the bench.
Nix as the 5th OF & left handed pinch hitter.
Janish as a defensive sub and starter at SS when Cabrera needs a day off.
Dickerson/Gomes as guys who can platoon but not play everyday.
Hanigan as the backup catcher.

Cairo is the problem. really what use is he?
if its Cairo who stays (which i think it will be) then the bench would be fine IF we replaced Cairo with just about anyone. a guy who could play 1b, 2b & 3b with a 700 OPS would be a lot better than Cairo. Where's Adam Rosales when you need him? :D In all seriousness if Frazier or even Sutton can fill this role the team will have what it needs but neither impressed this spring.
Lets say Frazier starts tearing up AAA and replaces Cairo. He can play 3B when Rolen is banged up or needs a day off. Ditto for Votto at 1B or Phillips at 2B. When he doesn't start he can be available to pinch hit.

if its actually Francisco who stays then it seems like we have too many lefties on the bench. maybe i am making too much of this. in only ~40 games will we have to have to face a left handed starting pitcher. in those games if the game is on the line late & a LOOGY is on the mound then we'll just have to go with Owings, Hanigan or Janish. In games where we face a right handed starter then Gomes will be available to face a LOOGY later in the game.

Somehow I think that the Reds, Jocketty/Baker and the rest of us share your concerns. Yet, I think they probably did the best they could with variables in players, money, and circumstances that they could at this time.

We will have to see how it plays out. I don't think they are locked in, in concrete, meaning, I think that they have some options that might open up in the months to come in possible windows of opportunities.

I don't feel like all questions are going to have a right answer, right now.

Much of it could depend on how the players are used, and how much playing time that they receive and how they are able to respond to the limited opportunities.

We can understand why they demoted some, looking to benefit the team and player by getting them more certain amounts of playing time, probably with an eye on promoting them later this year or next year, or of course possible trade.

If Gomes, Stubbs, Bruce and Dickerson are productive, that bench might not be a concern at all, might be something that we end up shrugging our shoulders at, let's hope. :)

I am not sure about Francisco, I read so much from Doug on him, he has me convinced that he needs more work in the minors. If Doug is right and Francisco belongs in the minors, then where do the first four on that list up there belong? :eek:

Will M
04-11-2010, 04:48 PM
Question:

Ted Lilly starts for the Cubs. Gomes play LF. Our bench is Hanigan, Janish, Francisco/Cairo, Dickerson & Nix. We as down 3-1 in the 8th. Bases juiced. One out. Masset is due up & we pinch hit with Nix or Dickerson or Francisco. Pinella removes his right handed pitcher & brings in LOOGY. We replace the LH pinch hitter with...???

Hanigan?
Janish??
Cairo??? (if he is still around)
Owings???? (who has one at bat this spring)

seems to me a bit of a weakness. if we are going to keep Francisco then the bench seems a bit left handed. if we are going to keep Cairo then Walt better get on the phone & find a better bench IF bat.

well this scenario played out in today's game. with the bases juiced, one out, Reds down 1-0 late we pinch hit with Cairo. he hit a grounder up the middle that had 'double play' written all over it. the Reds got really lucky when Sean Marshall deflected the ball with his glove and everyone was safe. after that Dusty sent Bruce (who had the day off) up to pinch hit vs a LOOGY!

over 162 games the 'little things' add up. the Reds bench is one of their weaknesses that is going to hurt over 162 games. i hope that Frazier tears up AAA & forces his way onto the team. or Walt makes a big trade mid season for a stud left fielder pushing Gomes & Dickerson to the bench. these two guys would be fine bench guys but as the starters in LF they are going to seriously underproduce comapred to the average left fielder.

11larkin11
04-11-2010, 04:55 PM
Which is why it still is idiotic that we let Balentien go.

Guacarock
04-11-2010, 06:00 PM
Which is why it still is idiotic that we let Balentien go.

And why it didn't make sense to send Sutton down either and designate Cairo as the team's utility man. Not that Balentien and Sutton could do much to improve the offense if they were going to ride the pines, but the Reds needed to make a statement, favoring more well-rounded players with higher OBP. Instead, the veteran hackers got the call north.

Will M
05-23-2010, 01:08 AM
well Walt sure is making me look stupid this year. i had a hissy fit when he kept Nix over Balentien. Balentien isn't doing much in AAA. Nix has been on fire & is now hitting .278 with 4 home runs in 57 PAs. by my calculation his line after tonight's game is 278/333/592. Not bad for a guy expected to be a 5th outfielder who makes the minimum salary!

Captain Hook
05-23-2010, 01:21 AM
well Walt sure is making a lot of us look stupid this year. almost everyone had a hissy fit when he kept Nix over Balentien. Balentien isn't doing much in AAA. Nix has been on fire & is now hitting .278 with 4 home runs in 57 PAs. by my calculation his line after tonight's game is 278/333/592. Not bad for a guy expected to be a 5th outfielder who makes the minimum salary!

Don't be so hard on yourself.I fixed that for ya.:D

11larkin11
05-23-2010, 05:53 AM
Although Gomes has been en fuego recently, Nix
"Office Linebacker" had been making a case along with Heisey to bring that platoon back

Redsfan320
05-23-2010, 09:47 AM
almost everyone had a hissy fit when he kept Nix over Balentien.

Not me! Look who's laughin' now!!!! :evil: ;)

320