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View Full Version : I expect Harang and Arroyo to have big years..here's why



NorrisHopper30
04-03-2010, 03:32 PM
Now that this organization is literally oozing with young pitching talent I think it's putting more pressure on the veterans Harang and Arroyo to perform. They've got to be thinking in the back of their head if they mess up at the beginning of the season they could be traded and have their spot filled with a youngster who could do just as well.

Competition breeds excellence..these two are gonna be more focused than ever.

GO REDS

Spazzrico
04-03-2010, 05:13 PM
I do wonder if they are worried about getting traded. If anything it would be an annoyance. Either way, they are getting paid. I would think nearing the end of a contract would be more of a motivator for them than competition from youngsters.

sivman17
04-03-2010, 05:29 PM
I have a feeling they will both put up similar numbers from what they have the past couple of years. They both seem kind of laid back in that they aren't going to get too distressed or motivated by the possibility of a trade or the competition from youngsters. Both of them, Harang especially, have been the rumors of trades for the past couple seasons. I see both of them hanging around the 4.00 ERA mark for most of the season.

Perhaps I will be wrong though and they will be much more motivated. I'd love to see it.

Vottomatic
04-03-2010, 05:42 PM
Contract year, since everyone knows the Reds will not pick up their option.

Most players do well in their contract year to guarantee another big contract.

Still wish we could unload Harang and keep Arroyo at a lower price.

shan12stones
04-03-2010, 06:31 PM
i hope they step it up.

NorrisHopper30
04-03-2010, 09:43 PM
If they both step it up, this could be a good year.

Kingspoint
04-04-2010, 03:08 AM
This really is such a completely different team than last year I don't know what to expect from them "as a group".

Dusty's in a contract year, too.

Roush's socks
04-04-2010, 02:37 PM
Contract years have a way of bringing out the best in professional athletes. Of course if your stuff is gone it doesn't matter.

arkimadee
04-04-2010, 02:54 PM
If they don't step up I have a feeling not alot of patience will be given to them. Especially Harang. We have to many hungry arms down in the minors ready to take their spots. Although I think Arroyo will have a larger leash on him than Harang

Knightro28
04-04-2010, 06:50 PM
What happens if the two vets have great years and the young guys regress? Do you re-sign Harang and Arroyo for 2011-??? Trade Homer / Cueto for a change of scenery? Send Cueto down and bring up Wood / Chapman?

Intriguing.

double21d
04-04-2010, 06:55 PM
What is Arroyo's option worth? If he isn't traded (which means the Reds are competitive), I wouldn't be shocked if they picked up his option. A veteran pitcher is a good thing to have.

mlh1981
04-04-2010, 10:29 PM
Harang could be extremely motivated and all that, but it's moreso a question of what does he have left? If he can't get back his old stuff, then all the motivation in the world won't matter.

I'm penciling in Arroyo for another typical year. We all know what he's going to do. He will have his usual awful starts mixed in with some gems.

Knightro28
04-04-2010, 10:53 PM
What is Arroyo's option worth? If he isn't traded (which means the Reds are competitive), I wouldn't be shocked if they picked up his option. A veteran pitcher is a good thing to have.

Arroyo will get $11 million in 2010. There is a club option at $11 million for 2011 with a $2 million buyout. The option can escalate to $13 million, based on innings. (Harang's option is $12.75MM, also up to $13MM based on incentives)

Ghosts of 1990
04-05-2010, 12:36 AM
I think this is it for Harang. Hope I am wrong but I've lost all faith in him. He's not a #1 anymore. We really don't have a #1 as of now.

Krawhitham
04-05-2010, 12:50 AM
Contract year, since everyone knows the Reds will not pick up their option.

Most players do well in their contract year to guarantee another big contract.

Still wish we could unload Harang and keep Arroyo at a lower price.

You are not going to get Arroyo cheap, he is always among the leaders in quality starts. Over the last 4 seasons who has more QS in the NL than Arroyo?

Krawhitham
04-05-2010, 12:52 AM
Now that this organization is literally oozing with young pitching talent I think it's putting more pressure on the veterans Harang and Arroyo to perform. They've got to be thinking in the back of their head if they mess up at the beginning of the season they could be traded and have their spot filled with a youngster who could do just as well.

Competition breeds excellence..these two are gonna be more focused than ever.

GO REDS

only thing big from Harang this season will be his ERA

We will see Chapman promoted when Harang goes on the DL for inflation of his ERA

GIDP
04-05-2010, 01:04 AM
Harang was actually an above average pitcher last year and on pace to throw 220 innings before a freak medical problem happened.

Kingspoint
04-05-2010, 01:10 AM
Harang was actually an above average pitcher last year and on pace to throw 220 innings before a freak medical problem happened.


Not under any scenario was Harang an above average pitcher last year.

GIDP
04-05-2010, 01:26 AM
Not under any scenario was Harang an above average pitcher last year.

League average ERA last year 4.19
Harangs ERA 4.21
League Whip 1.38
Harangs WHIP 1.41
Above average K/9
Above average k/BB ratio

Consider he made 14 starts in GABP with a 3.43 ERA i think its safe to say he was better than average last year. You can say he was average but you have no arguement that he is below average.

PhillipsHead
04-05-2010, 04:17 AM
Just because his team couldn't score runs for him is no reason to think Harang was a below average pitcher. He will be just fine this year now that he's completely healthy.

Kingspoint
04-05-2010, 04:37 AM
League average ERA last year 4.19
Harangs ERA 4.21
League Whip 1.38
Harangs WHIP 1.41
Above average K/9
Above average k/BB ratio

Consider he made 14 starts in GABP with a 3.43 ERA i think its safe to say he was better than average last year. You can say he was average but you have no arguement that he is below average.

You show me that his ERA was worse than League Average while in reality he pitched worse than his ERA. His BAbip was atrocious as was his OPS-Against.

Harang pitched wwwwwaaaaaaayyyyyyy below average last year.

When it comes to Harang, you have to look at the way he pitched every game. A stat that backs up how badly he pitched is the "extra-base-hit-percentage" based on how often he gave up an extra base hit per plate appearance. Only one team in the National League had a higher percentage than he did. That was Washington's entire staff at 9.1%. Harang was at 9.0% for the entire season. Harang serves up the extra-base hit and he always serves it up at the wrong time. If the REDS were scoring 2 runs, he'd give up 3 runs. If the REDS were scoring 3 runs, he'd give up 4 runs. If the REDS were scoring 4 runs, he'd give up 5 runs, and if the REDS were scoring 5 runs, he'd give up 6 runs.

Of the 48 NL pitchers who pitched 162 innings (1 inning for every game their team played, or, the number of innings to qualify for an ERA title), only three pitchers had an OPS-against worse than Harang's .797, Derek Lowe's .798, Livan Hernandez' .833, and Braden Looper's .847.

You can't spin that any other way. Aaron Harang was terrible last season. He wasn't even "below average", yet alone the "above average" you're trying to spin. He was nothing but "poor". An "F" if was given a grade.


Dick Pole failed to get through to him the last two seasons for whatever reason. I really think Bryan Price is going to be the difference and that Harang will get turned around this season. He'll quit serving extra-base hits at that horrible rate of 9.0% per plate appearance and as a consequence, he'll lower that OPS, and give the REDS a lot better chance to win some games when he's starting them. It's nothing but a mental thing with Harang, where he's just got to be smarter than he's been.

Someone else reads "ERA" in his Spring Outings and says he pitched horribly. But, I saw in him something different. It looked like he tried to stay off of the middle of the plate a lot more. He still served up extra base hits, but in Spring Training it's different as it's not as important to get a guy out by avoiding a pitch that batter loves to hit, but for Harang to work on the pitches he needed to work on to get ready for today. I liked what I saw from Harang this Spring.

ERA's pretty over-rated. I wouldn't pay too much attention to it when it comes to seeing how a pitcher is pitching on a season.

GIDP
04-05-2010, 07:46 AM
Well dont let facts get in your way of a good argument.

Vottomatic
04-05-2010, 09:27 AM
Gotta disagree about Harang being below average.

The whole problem stems with Reds management and Dusty putting Harang out there against every opponents #1 starter. Harang is not a #1 starter and his wins and losses suffer because of that, as well as I'm sure the pressure to pitch perfectly probably gets to him as well.

If Harang were a #3 starter, his numbers would be much better. We just need to pay him #3 starter money instead of #1 starter money.

bgwilly31
04-05-2010, 10:02 AM
Im not worried about arroyo.

Harang on the other hand.....

Kingspoint
04-05-2010, 02:02 PM
Well dont let facts get in your way of a good argument.

My Goodness GIDP. If you were standing in a rainstorm, you'd say it was sunny out. I gave you every fact you need to know and if want to choose to ignore them, then there's no sense even having a discussion with you as you won't pay attention to common sense.

You need more proof?

Typical Harang with his pitches to Albert Pujols. There's 2 outs and he throws a meaty pitch right down the heart of the plate. Brent Musberger asks the "professional" next to him, "How would you pitch to Pujols?" He answers, "Well, I wouldn't throw one right down the middle of the plate like Harang did right there. He got lucky with that one." Right when he says that, Harang promtly throws another one (back-to-back) right down the middle of the plate, where Pujols promptly parks it into the seats. Typical Harang. He's learned nothing it seems from Spring Training. As the announcer said about those two pitches, "He got lucky with the 1st one, but the next one was going into the seats no matter how hard he threw it because he located it right down the middle of the plate. Very poor command."

If you can't understand that and admit you're wrong, then you're not capable of holding a discussion. Speaking with someone who ignores the obvious is worse than talking with a 4-year old. You can at least reason with a 4-year old.

The homerun pitch to Arasmus was the same thing. Brantley said, "I don't even know why you'd come in there with a fastball. Colby loves to turn on fastballs, and if you're going to come inside with one, you certainly don't put it in the strike zone like Harang just did."

Harang is a "stupid" pitcher. He has no baseball IQ, whatsoever, and that's why he's not even a below-average pitcher, and hasn't even been a below-average pitcher for the last two years. He's been in the bottom 10% of starters in the league. He's horrible. Live in fantasy land if you want, but if Harang doesn't quit being stupid, he's going to lose another 18 games this season, and the REDS will lose at least 22 games whenever he starts a game, ensuring that they'll finish below .500 again. He's the pitching equivalent of Corey Patterson or Willy Taveras.

sivman17
04-05-2010, 03:36 PM
I hate Harang. Who throws a fat pitch right down the middle to Pujols with two outs and nobody on base? It makes no sense.

Who cares that Holliday is up next? Walk Pujols, walk Holliday if you have to. You NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVERRRRRRRR pitch to Pujols with the bases empty and two outs.

I say Chapman starts Saturday. Harang is absolute garbage.

Oh, and that pick off attempt.. whether Votto should've had it or not, he never should have thrown it over there with two outs. And if you are going to throw it over, hit the guy in the chest.

I hate that that counts as an unearned run for Harang. It's his throwing error, his dumb mistake. He is terrible.

Krawhitham
04-05-2010, 05:22 PM
League average ERA last year 4.19
Harangs ERA 4.21
League Whip 1.38
Harangs WHIP 1.41
Above average K/9
Above average k/BB ratio

Consider he made 14 starts in GABP with a 3.43 ERA i think its safe to say he was better than average last year. You can say he was average but you have no arguement that he is below average.

those stats show him worse than average, and he is always going to play have his game in GABP until he is cut or traded

GIDP
04-05-2010, 06:10 PM
those stats show him worse than average, and he is always going to play have his game in GABP until he is cut or traded

Worse than average while pitching about as close to average in a hitter friendly park. My bad I'm completely mistaken, now I realize hes really bad and probably couldnt get a AAA line up out with out giving up 7 runs in 2 innings. ugh.

BLEEDS
04-05-2010, 11:03 PM
3 ER's in 5 innings, missing with one pitch up 0-2 on Pujols, I'd call that acceptable.

The sky is not falling chicken little.

Dusty putting in Lincoln, and somehow additionally getting him, Cairo and Laynce nix all PT in the first game of the season, now THAT is something to be worried about.

PEACE

-BLEEDS