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RedFanAlways1966
04-06-2010, 07:49 AM
I do not want to hear any crying about bush league and that crap. What do you do if you are the manager?

icehole3
04-06-2010, 08:01 AM
4 pitches out of the strike zone for me, if it was Barry Bonds would Dusty have walked him?

RBA
04-06-2010, 08:11 AM
Anyone on base?

reds1869
04-06-2010, 08:16 AM
I think you have to go after him. Be cautious, but don't back down. You have to make him beat you even though he often will. I've never been a fan of the intentional walk or the "unintentional" intentional walk. He is a great hitter but you will still get him out 60% of the time.

Always Red
04-06-2010, 08:39 AM
Pujols first HR yesterday was a 94 mph fastball right over the fat part of the plate. Harang missed his spot by a foot.

I'd say don't throw the man fastballs down the middle, as a start.

Falls City Beer
04-06-2010, 08:55 AM
One pitch up and in--then away, away, away. If you walk him oh well.

cumberlandreds
04-06-2010, 08:57 AM
I would take the Bob Gibson route. Knock him down four straight times. That could have set the tone for the season that the Reds are here to play for keeps this season.

Caveat Emperor
04-06-2010, 09:03 AM
I'd intentionally walk him every at bat from this point forward. Take the game out of his hands and force the rest of the Cardinals to beat you.

At the very least, it's time to break out the "When should you pitch to Bonds?" chart. He's reached that level of productivity.

forfreelin04
04-06-2010, 09:08 AM
I believe the count was 2-2 and Harang struck out the first two batters prior.

Opening Day with the crowd roaring to K the side, Harang just forgot who he was and missed his spot. Harang hit his spot in Pujols third at bat and he still hit it a ton; it just stayed in the ballpark. Game of inches.

Personally, I don't pitch to him EVER. However I can understand Dusty's decision with his supposed ACE and it being the 1st inning.

I see Holliday burning us on a few IBB of Albert throughout the year, but let him be beat you. The odds are much better.

puca
04-06-2010, 09:11 AM
If bases are empty, then pitch to get him out, but mix it up and work out of the stike zone, inside, outside and down. Don't worry if you walk him.

If you leave it over the plate or throw something he is expecting and he will crush it. Not only is he a great hitter but he comes prepared every game and every at bat.

forfreelin04
04-06-2010, 09:12 AM
I would take the Bob Gibson route. Knock him down four straight times. That could have set the tone for the season that the Reds are here to play for keeps this season.

We've been wanting someone to do this to the likes of Albert, Derek Lee, and Berkman this entire decade. Either Reds management has always deemed it "bad baseball" or no one has the stones to do it. Either way, the Reds continue to get burned by the same players year in and year out.

I've always felt each of these three players were much too comfortable in the box.

klw
04-06-2010, 09:42 AM
I choose two of the above options. Throw near him as part of a sequence in which you are trying to get him out. Ex. Fastball away, fastball in (groin height), curve in and high, slider away, slider away. Change heights, speeds, location. Be untraditional, try not to groove anything and duck if you do.

Redsfan320
04-06-2010, 09:44 AM
Hit him. Send a message. Then pitch him way inside and outside the rest of the game (season).

320

membengal
04-06-2010, 09:45 AM
I'm still not sure what the message is supposed to be by hitting him. The Reds pitchers simply need to do a better job against him owning the inside corner and just inside off the plate. They can do that without throwing at him. If they continue to refuse to work inside, he will continue crushing them.

Vada Pinson Fan
04-06-2010, 09:46 AM
I agree with icehole3- 4 pitches clearly out of the strike zone. Pujols is one of the best of all-time so why pitch to him? In the pregame they mentioned Harang doesn't like to pitch to Pujols (who does???) but loves pitching to Holiday. It's a no-brainer. I mean how many times do the Reds have to be burned by Pujols til you try something else?

jojo
04-06-2010, 09:49 AM
I do not want to hear any crying about bush league and that crap. What do you do if you are the manager?

Tell your pitcher to locate better because headhunting can't compensate for throwing meatballs and headhunting because you can't get a guy out is really, really embarrassing to your team.

George Anderson
04-06-2010, 10:07 AM
Tell your pitcher to locate better because headhunting can't compensate for throwing meatballs and headhunting because you can't get a guy out is really, really embarrassing to your team.

No kidding...am I missing something?? What did Pujols do to deserve to get hit besides kick the Reds butts??
He did nothing unethical or bush league, he just is a damn good player.


Having said that, don't pitch to him.

Danny Serafini
04-06-2010, 10:17 AM
Bases empty and two out, you absolutely pitch to him. Playing scared isn't going to win you many ballgames.

George Anderson
04-06-2010, 10:18 AM
Playing scared isn't going to win you many ballgames.

How bout playing smart though?? ;)

westofyou
04-06-2010, 10:18 AM
Knock him on his arse, don't let him get comfortable.

lollipopcurve
04-06-2010, 10:24 AM
Bases empty and two out, you absolutely pitch to him. Playing scared isn't going to win you many ballgames.

Agree.

mbgrayson
04-06-2010, 11:04 AM
I'm still not sure what the message is supposed to be by hitting him. The Reds pitchers simply need to do a better job against him owning the inside corner and just inside off the plate. They can do that without throwing at him. If they continue to refuse to work inside, he will continue crushing them.

I agree that he should not be hit. That is bush....He did nothing to show up the Reds or our pitchers, other than hit HRs.

However, the problem with nibbling around the corners with Pujols is that if (and when) the pitcher misses his spot, it can become a HR very quickly. On the 1st HR yesterday, Henandez gave a target off the outside part of the plate, and Harang missed by 10 to 12 inches, leaving the ball over the mid-outer part of the plate. Homerun.

Chip R
04-06-2010, 11:10 AM
If you hit him the first pitch, you save some wear and tear on the pitcher's arm. Just sayin'.

Marc D
04-06-2010, 11:10 AM
Pujols first HR yesterday was a 94 mph fastball right over the fat part of the plate. Harang missed his spot by a foot.

I'd say don't throw the man fastballs down the middle, as a start.


and it was the second one in a row iirc. He actually fouled the first one off.

Obviously the theoretical answer is pitch to him but don't give him anything good to hit. If however your pitchers lack that kind of command (like yesterday) you simply have to have to walk him.

I don't care how good Matt Holliday is, he isn't Albert Pujols.

corkedbat
04-06-2010, 11:12 AM
I wouldn't hit him. I would put him on the seat of his pants though. Now if they are going to go ahead and give him an iBB, then I'd stick one in his ribs (no sense in running up pitch counts). :D

membengal
04-06-2010, 11:13 AM
I agree that he should not be hit. That is bush....He did nothing to show up the Reds or our pitchers, other than hit HRs.

However, the problem with nibbling around the corners with Pujols is that if (and when) the pitcher misses his spot, it can become a HR very quickly. On the 1st HR yesterday, Henandez gave a target off the outside part of the plate, and Harang missed by 10 to 12 inches, leaving the ball over the mid-outer part of the plate. Homerun.

I don't want them to nibble the corners on Pujols. What I wrote was they need to not be afraid to work the inside corner and just off the plate inside. To my untrained eye, the Reds staff in the past has not worked the inside of the zone near enough. It was one of the things I found so refreshing about Volquez. He didn't mind throwing hard inside. At any rate, when you don't work inside, batters can get real comfortable sitting on pitches middle and middle away. As if they need more help getting comfortable hitting those pitches. And certainly Pujols doesn't need the help.

Falls City Beer
04-06-2010, 11:27 AM
Tell your pitcher to locate better because headhunting can't compensate for throwing meatballs and headhunting because you can't get a guy out is really, really embarrassing to your team.

It's not bush if the guy's out of the batter's box hovering over the plate. It's strategy. Other teams do it all the time.

bucksfan2
04-06-2010, 11:38 AM
Get him out. Hit your spots, if you miss, don't miss over the plate. The first HR Pujols hit Harang missed with a fastball that tailed right down broadway.

RedsManRick
04-06-2010, 11:44 AM
Hit him for being good? That won't accomplish anything; and I very much doubt that merely brushing him back is going to strike fear in to him and open up the outside of the plate. If you think it's the right pitch because it's the right pitch, then fine. But throwing inside as some sort of ego-protection is just silly. I pitch him very, very carefully, especially if there are guys on base. But even Pujols makes outs more often than not if you give him the chance to.

Redlegs
04-06-2010, 11:48 AM
Two outs, nobody on, 1st inning. Why would you do anything other than try to get him out? With that said, trying to get him out does not consist of a fastball right down broadway.

As for the choices, intentionally walking the guy under those circumstances would be foolish, IMO. If you want to give him an unintentional intentional walk, that's fine. But at least try to make him go after a bad pitch or climb the ladder.

Falls City Beer
04-06-2010, 11:49 AM
Hit him for being good? That won't accomplish anything; and I very much doubt that merely brushing him back is going to strike fear in to him and open up the outside of the plate. If you think it's the right pitch because it's the right pitch, then fine. But throwing inside as some sort of ego-protection is just silly. I pitch him very, very carefully, especially if there are guys on base. But even Pujols makes outs more often than not if you give him the chance to.

I've seen pitchers take the outside corner from Pujols. It's harder, because he's got incredible plate coverage, but I've seen pitchers take away his outside corner. How is strategy an ego protection?

Redlegs
04-06-2010, 11:49 AM
Get him out. Hit your spots, if you miss, don't miss over the plate. The first HR Pujols hit Harang missed with a fastball that tailed right down broadway.Exactly.:thumbup:

westofyou
04-06-2010, 11:50 AM
But throwing inside as some sort of ego-protection is just silly

The pitcher has to find out if the hitter is timid, and if he is timid, he has to remind the hitter he's timid."

Don Drysdale

pedro
04-06-2010, 11:51 AM
The only thing I can suggest is not throwing a fastball down the middle of teh plate like he tried yesterday.

That didn't work.

RANDY IN INDY
04-06-2010, 11:56 AM
The pitcher has to find out if the hitter is timid, and if he is timid, he has to remind the hitter he's timid."

Don Drysdale

I posted that same quote on my facebook page this morning. I guess great minds think alike.:)

Falls City Beer
04-06-2010, 12:01 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see Arroyo pitch him inside tomorrow.

forfreelin04
04-06-2010, 12:14 PM
The pitcher has to find out if the hitter is timid, and if he is timid, he has to remind the hitter he's timid."

Don Drysdale

:beerme:

Great quote WOY.

For pitchers, the name of the game is control. Both in getting the ball over the plate and in the mental aspect of the game.

Not to throw a Joe Morgan out there, but when you've pitched at a competitive level you understand this so much more.

_Sir_Charles_
04-06-2010, 12:14 PM
Roll the ball up there. Seriously. Just like you're bowling.

If he can hit it, at least it'll be a ground ball. If he can get under a ball rolling on the ground...we should just forfeit. :O)

Falls City Beer
04-06-2010, 12:15 PM
Why are the categories "pitch him inside" and "pitch to get him out" mutually exclusive?

durl
04-06-2010, 12:18 PM
I would vote for "pitch to get him out" when no one's on base, but throwing him a fastball over the plate is NOT pitching to get Pujols out.

Has anyone seen a hot zone chart on Pujols for 2009? I'm curious to see what part of the plate (if any) that is difficult for him to hit.

IowaRed
04-06-2010, 12:24 PM
I am all for pitching inside and am totally in favor of knocking a hitter down more than Reds pitchers traditionally have done. However, I don't think you are going to make Pujols uncomfortable no matter what you do. I know what I wouldn't do and that is locate a fastball where Harang did......... to any decent major league hitter

Strikes Out Looking
04-06-2010, 12:25 PM
I hit him and send him and the whole ostrich crew a message--that the Reds are not intimidated.

jojo
04-06-2010, 12:32 PM
If the Reds best plan in response to yesterday is to find out if Pujols is timid, I think we've identified part of the problem...... :cool:

Just sayin'

Seriously, Pujols doesn't need to be reminded who he is.... he needs doubt to creep in his mind.... in other words, pitch him more effectively. Chin music basically tells him, "Uhhhhhhh, I've got nuttin'"...

Falls City Beer
04-06-2010, 12:34 PM
However, I don't think you are going to make Pujols uncomfortable no matter what you do.

You may be right. But the pitcher has the right to pitch to the inside part of the plate, which is where Pujols' entire torso hovers. It's optimal to pitch him inside--one of four outcomes likely occurs, all of them better than pitching him over the plate or intentionally walking him: 1. he moves back from the middle of the plate (giving you the outside part of the plate), 2. he doesn't move, and you hit him, keeping the ball in the park and only one base surrendered 3. he makes an out by swinging at something with the thin part of the bat, reducing the likelihood of a HR or 4. You walk him, but not intentionally.

Falls City Beer
04-06-2010, 12:37 PM
If the Reds best plan in response to yesterday is to find out if Pujols is timid, I think we've identified part of the problem...... :cool:

Just sayin'

Seriously, Pujols doesn't need to be reminded who he is.... he needs doubt to creep in his mind.... in other words, pitch him more effectively. Chin music basically tells him, "Uhhhhhhh, I've got nuttin'"...

Yeah. The Reds' pitchers are pretty bad, there's no argument with that. But then, the Cards' lineup outside of Pujols, Rasmus, and Holliday is fairly weak.

Screwball
04-06-2010, 12:39 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see Arroyo pitch him inside tomorrow.

I think Cueto actually gets the nod tomorrow night. Maybe he'll bust one in on Pujols.

RFS62
04-06-2010, 12:40 PM
You hit him with the first pitch and LaPunk will retaliate against Votto or Rolen.

You move him off the plate time and time again, if you hit him doing that, it's all good. If you don't move this monster off the plate, he'll be punishing us all year long.

Nothing over shoulder high.

membengal
04-06-2010, 12:44 PM
Why are the categories "pitch him inside" and "pitch to get him out" mutually exclusive?

They most certainly are indeed not. They are one and the same.

RANDY IN INDY
04-06-2010, 12:44 PM
In, out, up and down. You have to change his perspective and try to mess with his timing. He is as good as there is right now, and it is a daunting task. You cannot, however, let him beat you by grooving fastballs. He, simply, does not miss very often.

Reds1
04-06-2010, 12:48 PM
It's the 1st inning with no one one base - get him out!

RedsManRick
04-06-2010, 12:50 PM
I posted that same quote on my facebook page this morning. I guess great minds think alike.:)

And if the hitter isn't timid? :evil:

Chip R
04-06-2010, 12:55 PM
You hit him with the first pitch and LaPunk will retaliate against Votto or Rolen.

You move him off the plate time and time again, if you hit him doing that, it's all good. If you don't move this monster off the plate, he'll be punishing us all year long.

Nothing over shoulder high.


That is an excellent point. Wasn't that how Votto's troubles started last year when he got hit in the head and had a concussion?

hebroncougar
04-06-2010, 01:02 PM
If the Reds best plan in response to yesterday is to find out if Pujols is timid, I think we've identified part of the problem...... :cool:

Just sayin'

Seriously, Pujols doesn't need to be reminded who he is.... he needs doubt to creep in his mind.... in other words, pitch him more effectively. Chin music basically tells him, "Uhhhhhhh, I've got nuttin'"...

No it doesn't. Chin music says I'm taking back the inside part of the plate. Ask Bob Gibson, Pedro Martinez, or Roger Clemens.

jojo
04-06-2010, 01:10 PM
No it doesn't. Chin music says I'm taking back the inside part of the plate. Ask Bob Gibson, Pedro Martinez, or Roger Clemens.

Yes it does because Albert now is absolutely certain that you can't beat him if he digs in..... and he also knows that Votto won't look nearly as hunky with seam imprints on his forehead...

Seriously, just pitch better. Pujols is not going to be intimidated by being thrown at... and frankly, mlb isn't going to allow it....

Raisor
04-06-2010, 01:14 PM
If the Reds plunk Pujols, then the Cards will plunk Votto. Do we really want to get into a bean war?

westofyou
04-06-2010, 01:15 PM
Pitching inside is not a crime.

Unless you're on the Reds evidently

westofyou
04-06-2010, 01:16 PM
If the Reds plunk Pujols, then the Cards will plunk Votto. Do we really want to get into a bean war?

Don't get all French on us now.

hebroncougar
04-06-2010, 01:30 PM
Yes it does because Albert now is absolutely certain that you can't beat him if he digs in..... and he also knows that Votto won't look nearly as hunky with seam imprints on his forehead...

Seriously, just pitch better. Pujols is not going to be intimidated by being thrown at... and frankly, mlb isn't going to allow it....

We'll just have to agree to disagree. The Reds don't pitch inside nearly enough. And it shows.

jojo
04-06-2010, 01:33 PM
There is a difference between pitching inside effectively and "chin music".... A big difference.

Ron Madden
04-06-2010, 02:34 PM
I'd knock him down and then walk him.

reds44
04-06-2010, 02:51 PM
I'd drill him. Easier than throwing 4 balls outside the zone, and if you send a message that's cool too.

_Sir_Charles_
04-06-2010, 03:18 PM
Of all the people who voted to "drill him", I wonder how many of them have actually been hit by a pitch thrown over 80 mph. I've been hit by an 86 mph "fastball" in the ribs...I wouldn't wish that on anybody. To say it stings is a bit of an understatement.

As for the message is sends....all it does is piss off the other team. That's about it. Oh yeah, and you also get one of your own teammates plunked in the process undoubtedly.

reds44
04-06-2010, 03:21 PM
Of all the people who voted to "drill him", I wonder how many of them have actually been hit by a pitch thrown over 80 mph. I've been hit by an 86 mph "fastball" in the ribs...I wouldn't wish that on anybody. To say it stings is a bit of an understatement.

As for the message is sends....all it does is piss off the other team. That's about it. Oh yeah, and you also get one of your own teammates plunked in the process undoubtedly.
All this does is make me want to drill him even more.

jojo
04-06-2010, 03:29 PM
Drill him because we really don't need Cueto to pitch again for 5 to 10 days (he'll get suspended)...

reds44
04-06-2010, 03:29 PM
Drill him because we really don't need Cueto to pitch again for 5 to 10 days (he'll get suspended)...
He won't get suspended for drilling Pujols once.

RANDY IN INDY
04-06-2010, 03:35 PM
You don't have to drill him, but you have to knock him off the plate and keep him honest. Nobody, regardless of how fearless, wants to get drilled with a 90mph fastball. It will make you think about diving out over the plate. You have to pitch inside to stay effective, or the outside corner means nothing to a hitter. He will just dive out and get it. More importantly, you have to keep the hitters eye adjusting. If you are in a particular zone all the time, it makes it much easier to "zone in" and hit. Mix it up, stay out of a particular pattern, and keep them guessing. Not too many pitchers are going to consistently blow it by Albert. You have to upset his timing or pitch around him.

mbgrayson
04-06-2010, 03:35 PM
All this does is make me want to drill him even more.

And then when the Cards drill Votto in retaliation, and Votto suffers a season ending injury.....

RANDY IN INDY
04-06-2010, 03:36 PM
And if the hitter isn't timid? :evil:

That's where the problems start, particularly if you don't have the "velo" to make him timid.;)

reds44
04-06-2010, 03:41 PM
And then when the Cards drill Votto in retaliation, and Votto suffers a season ending injury.....
Oh yeah because the odds of that are real high.

RANDY IN INDY
04-06-2010, 03:42 PM
Getting hit is a part of baseball. I never advocate starting a beanball war, but when you pitch inside, occasionally one gets away and someone gets hit. It wasn't a big deal in the 50's and 60's. It was expected. Frank Robinson knew that Drysdale was going to knock him down a couple of times each time they faced each other. Those guys didn't have nearly the protection that these guys have today, with better helmet technology. Pitchers have to establish the inside part of the plate and they also have to protect their hitters. If they don't, their team will be sitting in the dirt in the batters box, a lot, because other teams are going to pitch you inside and knock you off the plate.

Get over it. It's a part of baseball.

hebroncougar
04-06-2010, 03:54 PM
There is a difference between pitching inside effectively and "chin music".... A big difference.

Chin music is part of pitching inside. I've never advocated hitting him, they are two different options in the poll. You have to put an element of fear into a hitter, every now and then. Especially when he takes an outside fastball on a hit and run over the fence in the previous game.

fearofpopvol1
04-06-2010, 04:29 PM
I'd love for the Reds to throw near him to send a message...and was surprised that Harang did that during game 1...but it may have just been an accident.

jojo
04-06-2010, 05:08 PM
The fear you need to put into the hitter is the fear of not knowing location...

In other words, the benefit of pitching inside is reducing reaction time (location can be just as effective as velocity in that regard) because it adds another dimension the hitter needs to consider.

I have never understood the notion that pitching inside and chin music have to go hand in hand...

Jpup
04-06-2010, 05:34 PM
Yeah. The Reds' pitchers are pretty bad

Wow. None of the Reds starters are bad. None of them. Lincoln is pretty bad and that's about it as far as bad goes and the Reds pitchers. Watch anyone else lately?

KronoRed
04-06-2010, 05:37 PM
If you hit him the first pitch, you save some wear and tear on the pitcher's arm. Just sayin'.

Might save a whole lot if the pitcher gets tossed from the game.

I'm sorry but I don't get "Send a message that the Reds aren't scared", the only message I see here is "We can't get you out and we're gonna be d**ks about it"

TheNext44
04-06-2010, 05:50 PM
The fear you need to put into the hitter is the fear of not knowing location...

In other words, the benefit of pitching inside is reducing reaction time (location can be just as effective as velocity in that regard) because it adds another dimension the hitter needs to consider.

I have never understood the notion that pitching inside and chin music have to go hand in hand...

With actual chin music, you turn the hitters head around if done right. That makes that AB very different from that pitch on.

Sometimes it makes the hitters knees weak and puts fear into his head. Sometime it just makes him mad, dig deeper into the box and concentrate more. With Pujols, I imagine it would be the latter.

Basically, there is no need to come up with a "plan" for Pujols. If Reds pitchers just were better at pitching inside, and establishing that they own that part of the plate, for every hitter, they'll be fine.

Pujols is just sick good. He's going to get you no matter what, you just try to limit that to less meaningful situations.

_Sir_Charles_
04-06-2010, 05:51 PM
Wow. None of the Reds starters are bad. None of them. Lincoln is pretty bad and that's about it as far as bad goes and the Reds pitchers. Watch anyone else lately?

Don't worry about it. FCB has been very positive in regards to Reds hitters overall, but he has MAJOR concerns for our pitching. I agree with him with the offense in many regards...and considering our history with starting pitchers...I can certainly understand the debbie downer feeling towards them. I don't see it though. I think our rotation will be a top 5 rotation...THIS year.

At least that's how I've read his posts...if I'm totally off base here FCB, please feel free to slap me around. *grin*

Caveat Emperor
04-06-2010, 05:58 PM
I have never understood the notion that pitching inside and chin music have to go hand in hand...

They don't -- but with the way most hitters crowd the dish, an inside fastball starts to look "intentional" really quickly.

Frankly, the way you pitch Pujols is to never throw a pitch across the plate. He's shown throughout his career that he's rarely going to get himself out on strikes (as seen by the fact that his BB/K ratio has been over 1.00 every year since his rookie campaign), so your best bet is to throw him things he can't do anything with. If he makes a bad swing, so be it. If he walks, so be it.

There's nothing you can do to intimidate the man, nothing you can do to change the fact that he's the best hitter baseball has seen in over 50 years. Throwing inside certainly isn't going to make Pujols weak at the knees. He's a force -- the way the all-time greats were. You deal with it and make the other 8 non-hall-of-famers beat you.

Captain Hook
04-06-2010, 06:10 PM
I'm surprised that it hasn't come up yet(maybe I missed it)but I do remember that at some point later in the game(I think it was Masset)one of the Reds pitchers did throw one high and inside to Pujols.Aslo seemed like the crowd got a bit of a rise from it.

I did vote to go after him.That said I do think that teams need to knock Albert off the plate more.The pitch I spoke of wasn't even that inside and it almost hit Pujols.I was always taught to back guys off the plate that are crowding it and make them uncomfortable.If you hit them then who cares.Especially in Alberts case.

Falls City Beer
04-06-2010, 06:18 PM
If Reds pitchers have no desire to take back the inside part of the plate (not six or seven inches inside to the hitter), thus leaving themselves a needle's eye through which to throw a strike, then they deserve every dinger Pujols hits off them.

Chip R
04-06-2010, 06:19 PM
Might save a whole lot if the pitcher gets tossed from the game.

I'm sorry but I don't get "Send a message that the Reds aren't scared", the only message I see here is "We can't get you out and we're gonna be d**ks about it"


I'm not necessarily advocating hitting Pujols. Like RFS said, if we hit him, they might hit Votto or Phillips. All I'm saying is that instead of pitching around a guy (in general) and eventually wasting several pitches to put him on 1st, why not just hit him in the rear on the 1st pitch and save some wear and tear on the arm? As for a pitcher being ejected for doing that, that's only going to happen if it isn't the 1st batter that was hit and both benches were warned.

I think Reds pitchers don't pitch Pujols inside because they believe if they don't get in far enough, he's going to hit the scoreboard.

TheNext44
04-06-2010, 06:40 PM
I'm not necessarily advocating hitting Pujols. Like RFS said, if we hit him, they might hit Votto or Phillips. All I'm saying is that instead of pitching around a guy (in general) and eventually wasting several pitches to put him on 1st, why not just hit him in the rear on the 1st pitch and save some wear and tear on the arm? As for a pitcher being ejected for doing that, that's only going to happen if it isn't the 1st batter that was hit and both benches were warned.

I think Reds pitchers don't pitch Pujols inside because they believe if they don't get in far enough, he's going to hit the scoreboard.

Which would be different from the results of the current way they are pitching him how...?

RFS62
04-06-2010, 07:13 PM
Never, ever throw at anyone's head.

Pitch him inside, off the plate. Push him back or let him take one in the ribs.

redsfandan
04-06-2010, 07:30 PM
I voted intentional walk.

Just saw this thread and don't have time to read the dozens of posts right now so I apologize in advance if this has already been said. But, it wasn't that long ago that Barry Bonds was racking up a TON of walks every year. Granted, Pujols gets his share of walks although not even close to what Bonds received. And I just don't understand why people don't view Pujols the same way.

Here are the top ten players in bb/pa last year (from the espn stats page http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/year/2009/sort/walksPerPlateAppearance/type/sabermetric/order/true ):



1) Adrian Gonzalez .175
2) Adam Dunn .174
3) Nick Johnson .172
4) Lance Berkman .172
5) Chipper Jones .169

6) Albert Pujols .164

7) Nick Swisher .160
8) Kosuke Fukudome .154
9) Prince Fielder .153
10) Carlos Pena .153

Now there are some good players on that list but, imo, Pujols should be #1 and it shouldn't even be close. Why teams don't walk Pujols more is a mystery to me considering how they treated Bonds.

westofyou
04-06-2010, 07:31 PM
Never, ever throw at anyone's head.

Pitch him inside, off the plate. Push him back or let him take one in the ribs.

yep, he doesn't own the plate and letting him just means he in turn owns you.

redsfandan
04-06-2010, 07:40 PM
edit to my previous post: i should've used intentional walks instead. but i'd still be surprised if there isn't a difference between how Pujols and Bonds are treated compared to other hitters.

RedsManRick
04-06-2010, 07:46 PM
Now there are some good players on that list but, imo, Pujols should be #1 and it shouldn't even be close. Why teams don't walk Pujols more is a mystery to me considering how they treated Bonds.

Don't discount the fact that because he's such a good contact hitter, he'll be aggressive earlier in the count. He'll take that fastball on the outside corner and line in to RF whereas a guy like Dunn would let it go and wait for something better.

RedsManRick
04-06-2010, 07:59 PM
edit to my previous post: i should've used intentional walks instead. but i'd still be surprised if there isn't a difference between how Pujols and Bonds are treated compared to other hitters.

2009 IBB Leaders:

A. Pujols: 44
A. Gonzalez: 22
P. Fielder: 21
C. Jones: 18
A. Dunn: 16
I. Suzuki: 15
J. Mauer 14
H. Ramirez:14
M. Cabrera: 14
L. Berkman: 14

Does that address your concern? Pujols struck out 64 times last year. It's conceivable he'll have more IBB than SO one of these years. Bonds managed that feat 3 times, 2002-04. Man, that 2004 season was silly: 617 PA, .362/.609/.812, 232 BB (120 IBB), 41 SO, 45 HR. His BABIP? Just .310. Really shows the power of the BABIP theory, huh?

RedsManRick
04-06-2010, 08:03 PM
I think Reds pitchers don't pitch Pujols inside because they believe if they don't get in far enough, he's going to hit the scoreboard.

I agree. Unfortunately, their alternative is to pitch him outside and not get it our far enough, resulting in balls hitting the scoreboard...

mth123
04-06-2010, 10:04 PM
You don't have to drill him, but you have to knock him off the plate and keep him honest. Nobody, regardless of how fearless, wants to get drilled with a 90mph fastball. It will make you think about diving out over the plate. You have to pitch inside to stay effective, or the outside corner means nothing to a hitter. He will just dive out and get it. More importantly, you have to keep the hitters eye adjusting. If you are in a particular zone all the time, it makes it much easier to "zone in" and hit. Mix it up, stay out of a particular pattern, and keep them guessing. Not too many pitchers are going to consistently blow it by Albert. You have to upset his timing or pitch around him.

:clap:

Some people on here seem to have pitching inside and headhunting mixed up. No need to hit him. But throwing effectively inside and then away, away, away as FCB suggested has been a pretty well established method for dealing with the bigger hitters in baseball history.

Honestly, if a Red's pitcher hit him just to hit him, I'd root for Pujols to go yard off of him. Drilling a guy, just to drill a guy is about as lame a thing as I've heard. Throw inside to back him off and if he's hit in the process, so be it. That is a lot different than actually trying to hit him.

HokieRed
04-06-2010, 10:10 PM
If Reds pitchers have no desire to take back the inside part of the plate (not six or seven inches inside to the hitter), thus leaving themselves a needle's eye through which to throw a strike, then they deserve every dinger Pujols hits off them.

Agree 100% with this assessment. I've argued, and I'll continue to maintain, that the need to get them to pitch inside was part of the reason for the Rolen deal. I like this team and this rotation but only because it's a lot better than what we have had, not because it compares to one like St. Louis's. We've got a decent #3 in Harang, paid like a TOR guy, a 2 and a half in Arroyo, two promising youngsters in Bailey and Cueto, and a kid out of college (whom I happen to like but who is still a kid out of college). The key guy, IMO, is Bailey, the one pitcher here with a TOR ceiling. I'm hoping to see a rotation of Chapman, Bailey, and three of Volquez, Cueto, Leake, or Wood in 2011. Or a true TOR guy brought in with the money now being paid Harang, Arroyo, and Phillips.

Ron Madden
04-07-2010, 04:36 AM
I've seen Drysdale knock Frank Robinson down time and time again.

Sometimes Frank would get back in the box and make an out, sometimes Frank would crush the next pitch.

I'd walk Pujols untill he gives me a reason not to.

GAC
04-07-2010, 05:28 AM
No kidding...am I missing something?? What did Pujols do to deserve to get hit besides kick the Reds butts??
He did nothing unethical or bush league, he just is a damn good player.

Bingo! It would be bush league, and poor sportsmanship, just because the guy is one of the best hitter in baseball, to intentionally throw at the guy just because he plays for the opposition and some fans don't like the guy.

Harang made a bad pitch and Albert made him pay for it. You cringe because it's the opposing team; but I tip my hat to the guy. He's one player you just can't make mistakes with.

Some Red fans are upset because he always burns us? I got news for you - he's burning a lot of teams around the league. He's that good, and I respect that. He certainly has earned it, regardless that he plays for the Cards.

It's a pitcher's job to study and know what weaknesses a batter may have. With guys like Dunn and Bruce it's the breaking ball low and away. I don't know what weaknesses Pujols may have. Maybe he doesn't have any. Maybe you just feed him a study supply of breaking stuff hoping he can't make good contact.

But I wouldn't, depending on the situation, intentionally walk the guy.

But a pitcher has as much right to the plate/strikezone as that batter. If a hitter has a habit of crowding the plate, then I have no problem at all with the pitcher throwing inside a few times to let him know that. It can be a battle.

redsfandan
04-07-2010, 05:54 AM
2009 IBB Leaders:

A. Pujols: 44
A. Gonzalez: 22
P. Fielder: 21
C. Jones: 18
A. Dunn: 16
I. Suzuki: 15
J. Mauer 14
H. Ramirez:14
M. Cabrera: 14
L. Berkman: 14

Does that address your concern? Pujols struck out 64 times last year. It's conceivable he'll have more IBB than SO one of these years. Bonds managed that feat 3 times, 2002-04. Man, that 2004 season was silly: 617 PA, .362/.609/.812, 232 BB (120 IBB), 41 SO, 45 HR. His BABIP? Just .310. Really shows the power of the BABIP theory, huh?
I just checked the leaders in '04. Thome was 2nd with 26 intentional walks in almost the exact same amount of plate appearances as Bonds.

So, Pujols had 2x as many intentional walks as the next guy in '09 while Bonds had almost 5x as many intentional walks as the guy in 2nd place in '04. And THAT'S what I'm talking about. Although my previous posts were poorly worded the basic point I was trying to make is the same: teams don't respect Pujols nearly as much as they did Bonds. That's something that I just don't get.

mth123
04-07-2010, 07:27 AM
I just checked the leaders in '04. Thome was 2nd with 26 intentional walks in almost the exact same amount of plate appearances as Bonds.

So, Pujols had 2x as many intentional walks as the next guy in '09 while Bonds had almost 5x as many intentional walks as the guy in 2nd place in '04. And THAT'S what I'm talking about. Although my previous posts were poorly worded the basic point I was trying to make is the same: teams don't respect Pujols nearly as much as they did Bonds. That's something that I just don't get.

Bonds didn't have Matt Holiday hitting behind him. In 2004 when Bonds was intentionally walked 120 times, he had journeymen like JT Snow, Ray Durham and Marquis Grissom around him. They all had decent years, but no would put any type of concern that a pitcher would be forced to pay for putting Bonds on base.

Walking Pujols to get to Holiday seems like a way to play right into the Cardinals' hands. There are situations where it would be called for, but doing it all the time like teams did with Bonds would just make Pujols that much better. I thought it was nutty when teams did it with Bonds.

HokieRed
04-07-2010, 10:21 AM
The 2-2 pitch to Pujols in the first inning should have been in the dirt, especially after the soft curveball Harang rolled up there and got away with on the previous pitch (I think I'm remembering the right home run.) It doesn't have to be a matter of head-hunting; it's just a question of making better judgments about risk in the right spots. This is what experienced pitcher--catcher--pitching coach--and ultimately manager--get paid to know and do.

RANDY IN INDY
04-07-2010, 04:40 PM
The Reds catchers need to have more of a presence in those situations. Take charge of the situation. Granted, the pitcher needs to make the pitch, but it would be nice to have more of a "Bench-like, take charge" presence back there where the pitcher knows his catcher will be in his grill if he makes a stupid pitch in a bad location.

MikeS21
04-07-2010, 05:15 PM
I voted to pitch to him to try to get him out. Until the Reds stop fearing Albert Pujols like he is larger than life, then he will continue to beat them over and over. As somebody said, even at his absolute best, you will get Pujols out 65% of the time. Of course, you've got to have a pitcher who can pitch to him ... which leads me to my second point.

Albert is a great hitter who has been made better by the simple fact that the vast majority of his plate appearances every year comes against the pitching starved NL Central. Other than possibly Zambrano or Oswalt, who does Pujohs face in this division that doesn't have mediocre stuff? When he has 30-35 games against the staffs of the Reds and Pirates every year, it's not hard to pad the stats a bit.

Finally, after all the arguments about OBP being directly tied to scoring more runs, increasing Albert's OBP by walking him more doesn't mean the Cards will necessarily score less runs. Even if you pitch around Pujols, the Cards will still fin a way to win.

Mario-Rijo
04-07-2010, 09:28 PM
Just for clarification Pujols makes an out only 57-58% of the time (.427 Career OBP%).

RFS62
04-08-2010, 12:35 AM
Pujols is one of the greatest hitters who ever lived. To not fear and respect what he can do to you is naive.

Move him off the plate or suffer the consequences.

OnBaseMachine
04-08-2010, 12:38 AM
I can't remember what inning it was but I noticed Cueto threw one pitch up and in on Pujols.

Ron Madden
04-08-2010, 03:53 AM
Pujols is one of the greatest hitters who ever lived. To not fear and respect what he can do to you is naive.
Move him off the plate or suffer the consequences.

Exactly.

The worst mistake you can make is to underestimate your opponent.

Falls City Beer
04-11-2010, 09:46 PM
Randy Wolf has pitched Pujols inside both times he's faced him tonight. FWIW.

fearofpopvol1
04-11-2010, 09:48 PM
Randy Wolf has pitched Pujols inside both times he's faced him tonight. FWIW.

And it's been effective. 0-2 so far. I'm so with you on this...why the Reds refuse to do this, I don't know.

reds44
04-12-2010, 05:11 AM
And it's been effective. 0-2 so far. I'm so with you on this...why the Reds refuse to do this, I don't know.
Let the record show he ended up hitting 2 HRs tonight.

GAC
04-12-2010, 05:13 AM
He's that good. ;)

Brutus
04-12-2010, 11:02 AM
Let the record show he ended up hitting 2 HRs tonight.

Interestingly enough, though, the homers came when Wolf (and Hoffman) nibbled on the outside part of the plate.

I think you pitch Pujols inside and back him off the plate, though I think it's absolutely unsportsmanlike to go headhunting. But I do think brushing back a hitter is part of the game (in the non-chin music sort of way).

Falls City Beer
04-12-2010, 11:08 AM
I'm still mystified by the conflation of headhunting and backing a hitter off the middle of home plate.

membengal
04-12-2010, 11:33 AM
I'm still mystified by the conflation of headhunting and backing a hitter off the middle of home plate.

Word.

RedsManRick
04-12-2010, 11:36 AM
I'm still mystified by the conflation of headhunting and backing a hitter off the middle of home plate.

I think the confusion I've seen in this thread is pitching inside simply as a means of backing him off the plate versus doing so to send some sort of message. Pitching Pujols inside makes plenty of sense in terms of getting him out, but it's silly if you think you're going to intimidate him by doing so.

Falls City Beer
04-12-2010, 11:42 AM
I think the confusion I've seen in this thread is pitching inside simply as a means of backing him off the plate versus doing so to send some sort of message. Pitching Pujols inside makes plenty of sense in terms of getting him out, but it's silly if you think you're going to intimidate him by doing so.

Intimidate? Probably not. But that's not the point. This isn't a fight. All I want him to do is move his arse. He can continue to be as brazen as he'd like, provided he does so in the batter's box.

jojo
04-12-2010, 11:45 AM
Intimidate? Probably not. But that's not the point. This isn't a fight. All I want him to do is move his arse. He can continue to be as brazen as he'd like, provided he does so in the batter's box.

I'm not even worried about moving his booty. Just make him have to worry about the whole strike zone.

Falls City Beer
04-12-2010, 11:47 AM
I'm not even worried about moving his booty. Just make him have to worry about the whole strike zone.

You can't do that with his entire torso blocking three-quarters of the dish. Guys move. Even the burly dudes turn and flinch at the last second, body armor notwithstanding. They move.