PDA

View Full Version : Juan Francisco



reds44
04-06-2010, 02:39 PM
How high is his upside? I was watching the game with my brother (a White Sox fan) yesterday and he brought up an interesting comparison for him, Pablo Sandoval.

Sandoval's career minor league numbers:
.303/.342/.445/.787

Francisco's career minor league numbers:
.281/.311/.482/.793

Is there any chance that Francisco can either A. develop a little more patience at the plate or B. be able to hit over .300 in the majors so his lack of any sort of patience is as much of a factor?

Everytime I watch him hit, I can't help but come away impressed, so I'm just trying to figure out if there's any chance he can become an everyday player.

bucksfan2
04-06-2010, 02:58 PM
I think Francisco has the highest ceiling out of any hitter in the Reds organization sans Yorman Rodriguez. I doubt he reaches that ceiling because he has shown he swings at everything. If Francisco develops some plate discipline I think he could be an offensive monster.

OnBaseMachine
04-06-2010, 03:19 PM
He has a beautiful swing and great bat speed. Unfortunately, his plate discipline is subpar at this point. If he can ever improve his plate discipline he'll be an offensive monster, IMO.

WMR
04-06-2010, 03:25 PM
His offensive approach somewhat reminds me of Vlad Guerrero.

Of course, he can't hit bad balls like Guerrero.

Kc61
04-06-2010, 03:26 PM
With all his flaws, I would like to see Francisco stay with the Reds, platoon in left field with Gomes, maybe occasionally play third.

Against righty pitching, Francisco would add a major dimension to the Reds' lineup.

If his problems with plate discipline get the best of him, he could then be sent down for more seasoning.

He potentially adds much more than Dickerson or Nix from the left side. I would try him.

RedsManRick
04-06-2010, 03:46 PM
How high is his upside? I was watching the game with my brother (a White Sox fan) yesterday and he brought up an interesting comparison for him, Pablo Sandoval.

Sandoval's career minor league numbers:
.303/.342/.445/.787

Francisco's career minor league numbers:
.281/.311/.482/.793

Is there any chance that Francisco can either A. develop a little more patience at the plate or B. be able to hit over .300 in the majors so his lack of any sort of patience is as much of a factor?

Everytime I watch him hit, I can't help but come away impressed, so I'm just trying to figure out if there's any chance he can become an everyday player.

It is an interesting comparison. Here's some more data:


Age Lg PA BB% K% HR% BIP% BABIP ISO
20 A 470 4.7% 15.7% 0.2% 79.4% .313 .055
21 A+ 423 3.8% 12.3% 2.6% 81.3% .305 .190
22 A+ 301 7.6% 13.0% 4.0% 75.4% .384 .238
22 AA 184 4.3% 10.9% 4.3% 80.4% .345 .211
Total 1378 5.0% 13.4% 2.3% 79.2% .330 .157

Age Lg PA BB% K% HR% BIP% BABIP ISO
19 R 36 0.0% 22.2% 0.0% 77.8% .429 .083
19 R 190 3.2% 19.2% 1.6% 76.0% .331 .126
20 A 562 4.1% 30.1% 4.4% 61.4% .337 .195
21 A+ 541 3.5% 23.8% 4.3% 68.4% .321 .219
22 AA 464 4.3% 20.8% 4.7% 70.2% .309 .220
22 AAA 99 4.0% 26.1% 5.1% 64.8% .431 .239
Total 1892 3.8% 24.6% 4.1% 67.5% .332 .201


A few things stand out to me:
Sandoval put the ball in play much more often. Given his averages and 600 PA, Sandoval's would see 157 non-HR hits per 600 . For Fransisco, that number is 134. That's about 40 points of batting average difference.
Sandoval walked a little bit more than Fransisco.
Fransisco hit for more power throughout his career, but for a similar amount over the last season. Doubles are power too.
Both guys were hit lucky from a BABIP, though .330ish could very well be standard for the minor leagues given the lower quality pitching and fielding.


Lastly, looking at Sandoval's 2009 in the majors, we should recognize that he was very hit lucky, with a .350 BABIP despite just an 18.6 LD% in 2009. That is not sustainable and it's very unlikely he puts up the same batting average in 2010. His K rate went up slightly but his walk rate jumped BIG TIME, to 8.2% in 2009. If he sustains that level, it will allow him to continue to put up a decent OBP when his average falls back to the .290-.300 range.

I agree that he's an interesting comp for Fransisco. However, we should continue to recognize that Fransisco is extremely unlikely to succeed in the majors without a big uptick in his walk rate. While he could sustain what seems to be a reasonable OPS, the composition of that OPS would be grossly SLG heavy, which makes it much less valuable in practice.

dougdirt
04-06-2010, 03:52 PM
Francisco swings like Sandoval does, but that is about where the comp ends. Sandoval makes a lot more contact, which means his average and OBP are going to start off a lot higher from the ground up. He also walks more than Francisco does.

KronoRed
04-06-2010, 04:32 PM
His offensive approach somewhat reminds me of Vlad Guerrero.

Of course, he can't hit bad balls like Guerrero.

Can't walk like him either.

Jeff Francoeur anyone?

fearofpopvol1
04-06-2010, 04:40 PM
Francisco is the 2nd coming of Wily Mo, Wily Mo, Wily Mo.

If Francisco puts up numbers similar to The Panda for a whole season at the show, I'll jump in the East River.

RedsManRick
04-06-2010, 05:10 PM
Francisco swings like Sandoval does, but that is about where the comp ends. Sandoval makes a lot more contact, which means his average and OBP are going to start off a lot higher from the ground up. He also walks more than Francisco does.

I was surprised to see that in 2009, Sandoval was roughly league average in terms of contact rate. I assumed he'd be in the upper 20%. I think he's due for a fairly big batting average regression in 2010. His 20th percentile PECOTA seems likely to me: .298/.351/.473

I don't think Fransisco has contact issues, just plate discipline issues. I'm beginning to think of him as Wily Mo Pena with more development time and better hand-eye coordination. If he can simply learn to lay off the breaking stuff out of the zone (easier said than done, I realize...), his BB% will go up, his K% will go down, and he'll be an absolute beast.

osuceltic
04-06-2010, 05:13 PM
I was surprised to see that in 2009, Sandoval was roughly league average in terms of contact rate. I assumed he'd be in the upper 20%. For me, it really reinforces the notion that if Fransisco can simply learn to lay off the breaking stuff out of the zone (easier said than done, I realize...) he could be an absolute beast. I'm beginning to think of him as Wily Mo Pena with more development time and better hand-eye coordination.

And two other advantages -- he's left-handed, which puts him at a real advantage against the large majority of pitchers, and he simply has a better stroke. That's tougher to quantify, but I believe it to be true. And I actually thought Wily Mo had some moments when he looked like he might put it together.

lollipopcurve
04-06-2010, 07:27 PM
Francisco's a much better hitter than Wily Mo was.

HokieRed
04-06-2010, 07:52 PM
Not only is Francisco a better hitter than Wily Mo ever dreamed of being, they are not remotely comparable at the plate. Francisco has a lot of quickness and a relatively short stroke; Wily Mo was all arms and way off balance most of the time. They don't even remotely resemble one another.

dougdirt
04-06-2010, 09:08 PM
Not only is Francisco a better hitter than Wily Mo ever dreamed of being, they are not remotely comparable at the plate. Francisco has a lot of quickness and a relatively short stroke; Wily Mo was all arms and way off balance most of the time. They don't even remotely resemble one another.

Francisco does not have a short stroke at all.

TheNext44
04-06-2010, 09:25 PM
Not only is Francisco a better hitter than Wily Mo ever dreamed of being, they are not remotely comparable at the plate. Francisco has a lot of quickness and a relatively short stroke; Wily Mo was all arms and way off balance most of the time. They don't even remotely resemble one another.

Their numbers may look the same, but their talent is not.

Francisco has a naturally beautiful swing. Nearly perfectly balanced, loaded with power, and great eye-hand coordination.

Pena had the swing of an offensive lineman who discovered a baseball bat in his hands one day.

In other words, Francisco is a ball player, Pena is a great athlete who was trying to learn baseball.

Doesn't mean that Francisco will be any better than Pena, but they really are not a good comp.

mth123
04-06-2010, 09:29 PM
With all his flaws, I would like to see Francisco stay with the Reds, platoon in left field with Gomes, maybe occasionally play third.

Against righty pitching, Francisco would add a major dimension to the Reds' lineup.

If his problems with plate discipline get the best of him, he could then be sent down for more seasoning.

He potentially adds much more than Dickerson or Nix from the left side. I would try him.

Me too. The Reds lack an ideal option to be the LH half of a LF platoon. Dickerson lacks power to the point of being detrimental. Nix has power and not much else. Francisco has oodles of upside, even more power and though his plate discipline is poor, he hasn't failed with it at any level. If Gomes isn't the full time guy, Francisco should be the platoon partner unless a better option could be brought in from outside the organization. JF has earned the right to fail IMO.

HokieRed
04-06-2010, 09:31 PM
Francisco does not have a short stroke at all.

He's got a shorter stroke, better hand action, and better hip movement than Wily Mo Pena ever showed. I didn't say he had a short stroke; I said he had a "relatively short one" and he does for somebody with his kind of power.

Falls City Beer
04-06-2010, 09:35 PM
I know the Reds need OB and everything, but I like Francisco's grip it and rip it action. He gets pretty solid base coverage with it, so I can live with a middling OB % if he sends a good many over the fence.

fearofpopvol1
04-06-2010, 10:19 PM
I'd prefer to sell high on Francisco. Let another team take on the risk, since he seemingly has value.

At a bare minimum, he needs to be at AAA getting ABs.

Caveat Emperor
04-07-2010, 12:42 AM
I know the Reds need OB and everything, but I like Francisco's grip it and rip it action. He gets pretty solid base coverage with it, so I can live with a middling OB % if he sends a good many over the fence.

He's the perfect 6/7 hitter -- clean up the clean up guys.

Will M
04-07-2010, 12:56 AM
I'm torn on Francisco. Go to AAA & develop plate discipline vs stay in Cincinnati.

IF the guy were to get 400 PAs as the LH part of a left field platoon as well as filling in at 1B/3B then I can see the logic of keeping him here. I think everyone is in agreement that if Nix is on the roster it should be as the 5th OF/pinch hitter. I think there is debate over who show play LF vs a RHP. Dickerson give you good defense & OBP. JF gives you power.
I personally would go with JF. Huge upside. IMO Dickerson is fine as a platoon partner in CF but I want some thump from a left fielder.

I personally would have used Balentien as the platoon partner for Gomes & sent JF to AAA. Since thats water under the bridge I'd choose JF over Dickerson.

vs RHP:
CF Stubbs
3B Rolen
1B Votto (L)
RF Bruce (L)
2B Phillips
LF Francisco (L)
C Hernandez/Hanigan
SS Janish

vs LHP:
CF Stubbs
3B Rolen
1B Votto (L)
2B Phillips
LF Gomes
RF Bruce (L)
C Hernandez/Hanigan
SS Janish

Bench:
Dickerson gets some PT in CF vs some RHP.

Nix is almost exclusively a pinch hitter. ocasionally gets a start in LF with JF playing 3B in a 'stack the lineup with lefty hitters' motif.

Cabrera, i agree that we may be in for some rough times with him. I hope he shows more with the glove but I have a bad feeling that Janish overall will be better as the starting SS & Cabrera as the utility IF.

Redsfan320
04-07-2010, 08:29 AM
What about making him a catcher. Then after this year we could have him catching, with Hanigan behind him. Has this been tried with him before?

320

chicoruiz
04-07-2010, 08:45 AM
Francisco has oodles of upside, even more power and though his plate discipline is poor, he hasn't failed with it at any level.

That's the key. While the vast majority of guys with poor plate discipline are exposed at higher levels, occasionally you'll find an outlier who can get away with it, and when you do you get a Vlad Guerrero-like talent. For me, he's much more likely to be Wily Mo than Vlad, but he's pulled it off at every level so far, so let's ride this thing and see where it goes.

dougdirt
04-07-2010, 10:53 AM
What about making him a catcher. Then after this year we could have him catching, with Hanigan behind him. Has this been tried with him before?

320

It takes a whole lot more than 1 year to become a catcher.

Redsfan320
04-07-2010, 11:19 AM
It takes a whole lot more than 1 year to become a catcher.

How long would you say the minimum time is then?

320

dougdirt
04-07-2010, 11:19 AM
How long would you say the minimum time is then?

320

3 years.

Redsfan320
04-07-2010, 11:21 AM
3 years.

Um.. okay... wow. Scary fast on the response. If it takes at least 3 years, then just forget the whole idea.

320

Mario-Rijo
04-07-2010, 11:30 AM
I was surprised to see that in 2009, Sandoval was roughly league average in terms of contact rate. I assumed he'd be in the upper 20%. I think he's due for a fairly big batting average regression in 2010. His 20th percentile PECOTA seems likely to me: .298/.351/.473

I don't think Fransisco has contact issues, just plate discipline issues. I'm beginning to think of him as Wily Mo Pena with more development time and better hand-eye coordination. If he can simply learn to lay off the breaking stuff out of the zone (easier said than done, I realize...), his BB% will go up, his K% will go down, and he'll be an absolute beast.

I think we'll all soon see that he does indeed have contact issues in addition to plate discipline issues and the former is maybe even a bigger problem. It's simple, you can't possibly curl up like that, get out on that front foot and continue to make contact. His balance will look fine as long as he is getting fastballs but those breaking balls will eventually throw his timing off and then when he begins to wait on those (because he'll start getting a lot of them) the fastball will start to get past him too. Pretty soon the opposition will have him severely out of sync.

wally post
04-07-2010, 11:31 AM
I have trouble understanding why ANYONE would want to be a catcher.

Mario-Rijo
04-07-2010, 11:33 AM
Can't walk like him either.

Jeff Francoeur anyone?

That would be the best possible semi-successful player he could be compared to IMO. And even then Francisco comes up short in the comparison, which is telling. Follow Jeff's career arc and that is best case scenario.

Chip R
04-07-2010, 11:59 AM
I have trouble understanding why ANYONE would want to be a catcher.


If you are good, it's a fast track to the majors.

Mario-Rijo
04-07-2010, 12:09 PM
If you are good, it's a fast track to the majors.

And pays a little more with better job security if you play it well enough. Randy Winn I'd think has been a more productive player in his career than Greg Zaun but I suspect Zaun has made as much or more dough. Just a hunch but being a premium position I'd think that'd be the case.

dougdirt
04-07-2010, 12:09 PM
That would be the best possible semi-successful player he could be compared to IMO. And even then Francisco comes up short in the comparison, which is telling. Follow Jeff's career arc and that is best case scenario.

I don't think its even close to the best case scenario. Its likely a best case scenario in the 'likely to happen' world, but its not the best case scenario at all.

Mario-Rijo
04-07-2010, 12:11 PM
I don't think its even close to the best case scenario. Its likely a best case scenario in the 'likely to happen' world, but its not the best case scenario at all.

Right, that is what I meant. That is if I am reading you right. You do mean Francisco isn't likely to reach those heights, right?

dougdirt
04-07-2010, 12:44 PM
Right, that is what I meant. That is if I am reading you right. You do mean Francisco isn't likely to reach those heights, right?

Best case scenario is he turns into Andres Galarraga or Juan Gonzalez. Most likely scenario is he turns into Wily Mo Pena.

WMR
04-07-2010, 01:28 PM
Why is it good to be a catcher?

Jason LaRue is still in the major leagues.

TheNext44
04-07-2010, 01:31 PM
Regardless If you are good, it's a fast track to the majors.

Slight correction

REDblooded
04-07-2010, 03:26 PM
Best case scenario is he turns into Andres Galarraga or Juan Gonzalez. Most likely scenario is he turns into Wily Mo Pena.

I really don't see the Wily Mo comp ever happening... Wily's major problem was that he could hit anything that moved even if it was a bad pitch... You could hang a curveball and still tie him up.

HokieRed
04-07-2010, 03:44 PM
I really don't see the Wily Mo comp ever happening... Wily's major problem was that he could hit anything that moved even if it was a bad pitch... You could hang a curveball and still tie him up.


Agree. Both hitters may have plate discipline problems but they're not remotely comparable in their mechanics at the plate.

fearofpopvol1
04-07-2010, 04:14 PM
I really don't see the Wily Mo comp ever happening... Wily's major problem was that he could hit anything that moved even if it was a bad pitch... You could hang a curveball and still tie him up.

It's comparable because both players had ridiculous power (potential), both players had OBP issues and both players didn't play stellar defense.

Falls City Beer
04-07-2010, 04:42 PM
It's comparable because both players had ridiculous power (potential), both players had OBP issues and both players didn't play stellar defense.

Wily Mo was among the worst defenders I've ever seen. Francisco appears to be a poor defender at third, but I have no idea what he's like in the outfield. Making that kind of defense comp. with Wily Mo is probably way premature.

dougdirt
04-07-2010, 04:54 PM
I really don't see the Wily Mo comp ever happening... Wily's major problem was that he could hit anything that moved even if it was a bad pitch... You could hang a curveball and still tie him up.

Wily Mo Pena in the major leagues between the age of 23 and 24 posted this line:


PA AB H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
639 587 162 32 2 30 93 40 206 .276 .326 .491 .816

Is that really all that different of a line from what you expect from Francisco? Pena walked more and struck out more than Francisco has shown so far, but the overall production is better than what I would expect from Francisco if he spent a full season in the major leagues this year and started every day.

GOYA
04-07-2010, 04:54 PM
Francisco hits for power AND average. And although he didn't have much trouble with it at the end of last year, I think it would do him a lot of good to see a good amount of AAA pitching this year. He has shown the ability to adjust. But he hasn't had to do it over any length of time over the AA level.

lollipopcurve
04-07-2010, 05:08 PM
I think most scouts would take Francisco's career over Pena's. You can call out a few numbers and make a case that they're more or less the same player, but that ignores what appears to be Francisco's superior hit tool and overall better athleticism.

dougdirt
04-07-2010, 05:22 PM
Tools wise, Francisco is a little better almost across the board. But he is not good defensively at all. Francisco also has worse discipline until he shows otherwise.

Each have their strengths and weaknesses, but their sum total is pretty similar at the same stage in their careers.

REDblooded
04-07-2010, 05:56 PM
And this is why purely looking at numbers to make a comp is silly... Wily Mo hit early in his career, but once the book got out that he couldn't hit a breaking pitch, his career faded FAST... The numbers may LOOK similar, but Francisco can hit breaking pitches... What will make or break his career is whether he can lay off of pitches out of the zone. Still far too early in his developmental process to tell if that's going to be the case or not. However, the Wily Mo comp doesn't hold up at all outside of the fact that both had great raw power.

dougdirt
04-07-2010, 06:22 PM
And this is why purely looking at numbers to make a comp is silly... Wily Mo hit early in his career, but once the book got out that he couldn't hit a breaking pitch, his career faded FAST... The numbers may LOOK similar, but Francisco can hit breaking pitches... What will make or break his career is whether he can lay off of pitches out of the zone. Still far too early in his developmental process to tell if that's going to be the case or not. However, the Wily Mo comp doesn't hold up at all outside of the fact that both had great raw power.

How many times have you seen Francisco hit? I have seen Wily Mo hit a breaking ball too. He just can't do it every day.

Francisco is a guy who despite these tools, didn't blow AA away in the slightest. In very small samples he posted good slash lines in AAA and the majors, but they were also boosted by a BABIP over .500. There are a lot of ways to get Francisco out and when he is exposed to a level long enough, guys will and have found it because his approach hasn't much changed.

Mario-Rijo
04-07-2010, 06:59 PM
And this is why purely looking at numbers to make a comp is silly... Wily Mo hit early in his career, but once the book got out that he couldn't hit a breaking pitch, his career faded FAST... The numbers may LOOK similar, but Francisco can hit breaking pitches... What will make or break his career is whether he can lay off of pitches out of the zone. Still far too early in his developmental process to tell if that's going to be the case or not. However, the Wily Mo comp doesn't hold up at all outside of the fact that both had great raw power.

I think after a nice sample size you'll see that this bolded quote is accurate about either Wily or Juan. The only difference being Juan may be able to hit the same curveball better if he knows it's coming than Wily could. But short of that I think he'll be as unimpressive overall.

fearofpopvol1
04-07-2010, 07:40 PM
Wily Mo was among the worst defenders I've ever seen. Francisco appears to be a poor defender at third, but I have no idea what he's like in the outfield. Making that kind of defense comp. with Wily Mo is probably way premature.

He's a disaster at 3B. He's not played many games in LF, so the odds are against him that he could just trot into LF and be at least a neutral defender. He does have youth on his side, but I think Wily Mo is definitely a fair comparison.

reds44
04-07-2010, 08:11 PM
Yeah, Francisco is Edwinesque at third. If you put them both at third base and switched their jerseys, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The main was I brought up this thread was because I'm curious what the Reds will do on Sunday.

Francisco is better than Nix, there's no doubt (in my mind) at least that's true. If Francisco could develop into an everday player, than I would send him to AAA. However, if his best case is bench player/bat vs. RHP, I might consider keeping him up and cutting Nix loose.

Something about him is impressive to me, even if his numbers say he can't walk enough to stick.

mth123
04-08-2010, 04:43 AM
Yeah, Francisco is Edwinesque at third. If you put them both at third base and switched their jerseys, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The main was I brought up this thread was because I'm curious what the Reds will do on Sunday.

Francisco is better than Nix, there's no doubt (in my mind) at least that's true. If Francisco could develop into an everday player, than I would send him to AAA. However, if his best case is bench player/bat vs. RHP, I might consider keeping him up and cutting Nix loose.

Something about him is impressive to me, even if his numbers say he can't walk enough to stick.

What we need to remember about the move on Sunday is that the Reds not only need to clear a spot on the 25 man roster, but on the 40 man a well. If Francisco goes down he'll be optioned, that clears the 25, but he's not going to be removed from the 40 man. That's why I think it could still be Nix or Cairo that goes.

camisadelgolf
04-08-2010, 04:22 PM
If the Reds could get Bronson Arroyo + cash for Wily Mo Pena, what do you think they could get for Juan Francisco? :devil:

Hoosier Red
04-08-2010, 04:25 PM
What we need to remember about the move on Sunday is that the Reds not only need to clear a spot on the 25 man roster, but on the 40 man a well. If Francisco goes down he'll be optioned, that clears the 25, but he's not going to be removed from the 40 man. That's why I think it could still be Nix or Cairo that goes.

Can't they still put Edison on the 60 day DL?

Chip R
04-08-2010, 04:29 PM
Can't they still put Edison on the 60 day DL?


Edinson's probably already on the 60 day DL.

RedsManRick
04-08-2010, 04:32 PM
What we need to remember about the move on Sunday is that the Reds not only need to clear a spot on the 25 man roster, but on the 40 man a well. If Francisco goes down he'll be optioned, that clears the 25, but he's not going to be removed from the 40 man. That's why I think it could still be Nix or Cairo that goes.

There are only 6 OF on the 40 man, so I think Nix stays. Cairo could go, but for some reason that strikes me as cruel unless the Reds told him they day they kept him that it was only for a week.

I really don't think the Reds would want to keep Fransisco on the bench all year, so I do think it will be him. And in that case, they need to make room on the 40 man, my guess would be either Mike Lincoln or Carlos Fisher. Both are the definition of fungible relievers; they can miss some bats, but don't have great control and have limited upside. Obviously, Lincoln would be my preference.

Hoosier Red
04-08-2010, 04:33 PM
Edinson's probably already on the 60 day DL.

Yeah but I didn't think they needed to in order to bring someone up. They DFA Balentien and Miles and signed Nix and Cairo. Unless there's someone else they needed to clear room for on the 40 man, Leake can just take Edison's spot.

RedsManRick
04-08-2010, 05:13 PM
Yeah but I didn't think they needed to in order to bring someone up. They DFA Balentien and Miles and signed Nix and Cairo. Unless there's someone else they needed to clear room for on the 40 man, Leake can just take Edison's spot.

40 man is full, not including Volquez.



# Pitchers (22+1) B/T Ht Wt DOB
61 Bronson Arroyo R-R 6'4" 195 Feb 24, 1977
34 Homer Bailey R-R 6'3" 210 May 3, 1986
45 Bill Bray* L-L 6'3" 220 Jun 5, 1983
51 Jared Burton* R-R 6'5" 230 Jun 2, 1981
54 Aroldis Chapman* L-L 6'4" 185 Feb 28, 1988
48 Francisco Cordero R-R 6'3" 240 May 11, 1975
47 Johnny Cueto R-R 5'10" 210 Feb 15, 1986
65 Enerio Del Rosario* R-R 6'2" 165 Oct 16, 1985
46 Carlos Fisher* R-R 6'4" 225 Feb 22, 1983
39 Aaron Harang R-R 6'7" 260 May 9, 1978
52 Daniel Ray Herrera L-L 5'6" 165 Oct 21, 1984
63 Sam LeCure* R-R 6'1" 205 May 4, 1984
57 Mike Lincoln R-R 6'2" 210 Apr 10, 1975
56 Matt Maloney* L-L 6'4" 220 Jan 16, 1984
40 Nick Masset R-R 6'4" 235 May 17, 1982
66 Logan Ondrusek R-R 6'8" 225 Feb 13, 1985
33 Micah Owings R-R 6'5" 231 Sep 28, 1982
53 Arthur Rhodes L-L 6'2" 220 Oct 24, 1969
67 Jordan Smith* R-R 6'4" 220 Feb 4, 1986
68 Philippe Valiquette* L-L 6'1" 205 Feb 14, 1987
50 Pedro Viola* R-L 6'1" 185 Jun 29, 1983
36 Edinson Volquez** R-R 6'0" 210 Jul 3, 1983
71 Travis Wood* R-L 5'11" 165 Feb 6, 1987

# Catchers (2) B/T Ht Wt DOB
29 Ryan Hanigan R-R 6'0" 200 Aug 16, 1980
55 Ramon Hernandez R-R 6'0" 225 May 20, 1976

# Infielders (10) B/T Ht Wt DOB
77 Yonder Alonso* L-R 6'2" 210 Apr 8, 1987
2 Orlando Cabrera R-R 5'10" 195 Nov 2, 1974
43 Miguel Cairo R-R 6'1" 225 May 4, 1974
64 Juan Francisco L-R 6'2" 180 Jun 24, 1987
7 Paul Janish R-R 6'2" 195 Oct 12, 1982
4 Brandon Phillips R-R 6'0" 200 Jun 28, 1981
27 Scott Rolen R-R 6'4" 250 Apr 4, 1975
15 Drew Sutton* S-R 6'3" 200 Jun 30, 1983
60 Chris Valaika* R-R 6'0" 215 Aug 14, 1985
19 Joey Votto L-R 6'3" 230 Sep 10, 1983

# Outfielders B/T Ht Wt DOB
32 Jay Bruce L-L 6'3" 225 Apr 3, 1987
21 Chris Dickerson L-L 6'3" 230 Apr 10, 1982
31 Jonny Gomes R-R 6'1" 225 Nov 22, 1980
28 Chris Heisey* R-R 6'0" 215 Dec 14, 1984
17 Laynce Nix L-L 6'1" 220 Oct 30, 1980
6 Drew Stubbs R-R 6'4" 205 Oct 4, 1984

*Not in majors
**On 60-day DL

Hoosier Red
04-08-2010, 05:19 PM
This was answered earlier in another thread but they could put Bray on the 60 day DL but don't want to because that would count as service time correct?


They could also try to sneak someone like Lecure through waivers. Now's probably a good time to try and get away with something like that.

fearofpopvol1
04-08-2010, 05:26 PM
If the Reds could get Bronson Arroyo + cash for Wily Mo Pena, what do you think they could get for Juan Francisco? :devil:

I think this is the way to be thinking. I can't imagine we would be able to get someone as productive as Bronson has been for as cheap as he was signed while he was here...but I'd rather let Francisco become someone else's project.

11larkin11
04-08-2010, 05:30 PM
Yeah, Francisco is Edwinesque at third. If you put them both at third base and switched their jerseys, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The main was I brought up this thread was because I'm curious what the Reds will do on Sunday.

Francisco is better than Nix, there's no doubt (in my mind) at least that's true. If Francisco could develop into an everday player, than I would send him to AAA. However, if his best case is bench player/bat vs. RHP, I might consider keeping him up and cutting Nix loose.

Something about him is impressive to me, even if his numbers say he can't walk enough to stick.

Close, but if I remember correctly, most of El Nino Destructor's errors are fielding, while EE's were throwing. Also, Francisco has a cannon attached to his right shoulder, much better than EE's.

Guacarock
04-08-2010, 05:32 PM
Yeah but I didn't think they needed to in order to bring someone up. They DFA Balentien and Miles and signed Nix and Cairo. Unless there's someone else they needed to clear room for on the 40 man, Leake can just take Edison's spot.

Volquez's spot was already filled by the signing of Gomez. Balentien and Miles' spots were filled by Nix and Cairo. So, even if Francisco goes down to AAA to clear space for Leake on the 25-man roster, someone else will have to get bounced off the 40-man roster as well.

Will be interesting to see who gets removed. The most likely candidates, if you ask me, include Cairo, Nix, Lincoln, Fisher and Viola. There could also be a surprise deal in the works, involving someone like Maloney, Lecure, Sutton or Valaika. We'll see what shakes down soon enough.

HokieRed
04-08-2010, 06:29 PM
Rather than deal any of the above-mentioned from a position of weakness--which it seems like we'd be doing--I hope they just do it real cleanly: Cairo out, Leake in.

Sea Ray
04-08-2010, 06:50 PM
He reminds me of Darryl Ward. Whether he ever plays fulltime in the big leagues is more dependent on his defense that his pitch selection. If he could play a position I think the Reds would be starting him

reds44
04-08-2010, 07:09 PM
The move that would make the most sense is DFA Cairo, but that would seem pretty cruel.

I guess you could DFA Lincoln, send down Francisco and call up Leake and a guy like Burton.

Will M
04-08-2010, 07:20 PM
The Reds have faced three straight right handed starters & Francisco hasn't gotten a start in LF vs any of them.

IMO he needs to either go to AAA and play everyday or he can stay here & get 400 PAs. How? he plays LF vs a RH starter & fills in at 1B/3B. He can also pinch hit. While he is here he works daily on his defense.

the worst thing to do is have him here in Cincinnati but not get to play much. thats a perfectly ok role for a 5th outfielder type but not for a youngster with upside.

Jpup
04-08-2010, 08:36 PM
The Reds have faced three straight right handed starters & Francisco hasn't gotten a start in LF vs any of them.

IMO he needs to either go to AAA and play everyday or he can stay here & get 400 PAs. How? he plays LF vs a RH starter & fills in at 1B/3B. He can also pinch hit. While he is here he works daily on his defense.

the worst thing to do is have him here in Cincinnati but not get to play much. thats a perfectly ok role for a 5th outfielder type but not for a youngster with upside.

I believe that's why he's going to be out when Leake get's placed on the roster. Louisville doesn't play until Sunday anyway. No harm for him being around the club for a few more days. I would imagine Lincoln is going to get sent home.

dougdirt
04-09-2010, 04:28 PM
I believe that's why he's going to be out when Leake get's placed on the roster. Louisville doesn't play until Sunday anyway. No harm for him being around the club for a few more days. I would imagine Lincoln is going to get sent home.

Louisville started its season last night.

reds44
04-09-2010, 05:09 PM
Francisco (and Cairo) were taking ground balls at 1B during bating practice today, if that means anything.

Will M
04-10-2010, 04:31 PM
Well Juan punched his ticket to AAA today. I believe he had 4 Ks. The Cubs pitchers also knew that they didn't have to throw the ball anywhere near the plate. JF is just not ready for the show. He needs to work both on his plate discipline & his defense.

fearofpopvol1
04-10-2010, 04:54 PM
Well Juan punched his ticket to AAA today. I believe he had 4 Ks. The Cubs pitchers also knew that they didn't have to throw the ball anywhere near the plate. JF is just not ready for the show. He needs to work both on his plate discipline & his defense.

Jocketty would be wise to trade him if he can and try to sell as high as possible.

HokieRed
04-10-2010, 04:55 PM
He's got a shorter stroke, better hand action, and better hip movement than Wily Mo Pena ever showed. I didn't say he had a short stroke; I said he had a "relatively short one" and he does for somebody with his kind of power.

I stand corrected. Regretfully he needs a lot of time in AAA and looks a lot like WMP.

Scrap Irony
04-10-2010, 05:14 PM
It's not his swing that's a problem-- it's his pitch selection. If he ever gets that down, he'd be awesome. The problem, of course, is his ability to lay off that pitch.

Mario-Rijo
04-10-2010, 05:18 PM
It's not his swing that's a problem-- it's his pitch selection. If he ever gets that down, he'd be awesome. The problem, of course, is his ability to lay off that pitch.

So you think he'd have no problem with those change ups/breaking pitches had they been in the strike zone?

nate
04-10-2010, 05:49 PM
It's not his swing that's a problem-- it's his pitch selection. If he ever gets that down, he'd be awesome. The problem, of course, is his ability to lay off that pitch.

His swing is longer than something very long.