One negative and one positive from Game 2:

[Kingspoint]

The negative: Cabrera not stopping that ball that trickled through the infield. It was so close to him, he almost stepped on it. Instead he tried to stab at, where he could have easily smothered it with his body, holding the runner on 3rd. Cabrera's always been a cocky individual, and it's that part of his attitude why I don't like him as a player. It cost us a run in a close game.



The positive: Instead of whacking at the 1st pitch as often as they did in Game 1, the REDS, as a whole, were very patient in Game 2, taking the 1st pitch most of the time, whether it was a strike or a ball. The first time through the lineup, only Stubbs swung at the first pitch. They need to be looking at pitches, and in early games in April, force the opposing starter to throw more pitches so he's gone that much sooner. The results weren't that good as Wainwright pitched very well, but it was still 2-2 through 6 innings.

[redsfan_12]

I think we swung at alot of 1st pitches. At one point in the game, cueto had 80 pitches and Wainright had 39.

[RedLakerFan24]

The Negative: The Range of Cabrera and Rolen, i wasn't mad about Logan, so what he got hit today but will will learn, did not see Juan Francisco

The Positive: No Lincoln, Pretty good job by Cueto, they didn't hit him hard. Nick Masset came back to normal. he did good vs the top of the order. Cabrera looked solid, and so did Cordero.

[FlyerFanatic]

I think we swung at alot of 1st pitches. At one point in the game, cueto had 80 pitches and Wainright had 39.

exactly. not sure where kingspoint is getting we were patient at the plate.

[joshua]

The Negative: A lot of hacking by Reds batters. Working the count can go a long way...especially when getting the starting pitcher out of the way ASAP. Giving up 3 outs on 9 pitches isn't a formula to win, even if you had Pete Rose, Cap Anson and Babe Ruth as your next three batters you dont' let anyone swing that much. Let our guys work the count or else we're going to see opponent pitchers go 6+ innings on us the rest of the year. And if I could give another negative: Having a rookie pitcher go up against the best batter of our generation and then Matt Holliday. Huge managing mistake.

The Positive: Cabrera came alive and hit when he needed to. Phillips also worked the count when he could, but I'm really surprised that OrCab was able to drive in 3 RBI's and have good at bats today. He was brought in for veteren leadership and today's at bats gave him some credibility so that's a huge plus.

[Kingspoint]

exactly. not sure where kingspoint is getting we were patient at the plate.

I'm getting it from what actually happened. I stated in the first post that of the first 9 batters for the REDS, only the 1st batter (Stubbs) swung at the first pitch. (and Stubbs didn't swing at the first pitch his next time up, so 9 of the first 10 batters let the first pitch go by)

Replay the game and count the rest of the at-bats against Wainwright. I'll post the exact numbers on Thursday if you don't want to go back and look at the game tape.

[Kingspoint]

At one point in the game, cueto had 80 pitches and Wainright had 39.

That was Cueto's fault for so many pitches and the fact that when we did swing, we made contact and made an out.

[Kingspoint]

I think we swung at alot of 1st pitches. At one point in the game, cueto had 80 pitches and Wainright had 39.

We actually didn't. Game 1 we swung at 16 of 41 1st Pitches for 39% (league average is 27%).

In game 2 we swung at 8 of 34 1st Pitches for 24% (league average still at 27%).

Almost everyone to a man was more patient on the 1st pitch:

BP swung 4 of 5 1st Pitch on Monday, but 1 of 4 on Wednesday.
SR swung 2 of 5 1st Pitch on Monday, but 1 of 4 on Wednesday.
OC swung 2 of 5 1st Pitch on Monday, but 0 of 4 on Wednesday.
JB swung 1 of 4 1st Pitch on Monday, but 0 of 4 on Wednesday.
CD swung 2 of 5 1st Pitch on Monday, but 0 of 1 on Wednesday.
JF swung 1 of 1 1st Pitch on Monday, but didn't bat Wednesday.
MC swung 1 of 1 1st Pitch on Monday, but didn't bat Wednesday.
JV swung 2 of 5 1st Pitch on Monday, but 3 of 4 on Wednesday.
JG swung 0 of 1 1st Pitch on Monday, but 1 of 4 on Wednesday.
DS swung 0 of 2 1st Pitch on Monday, but 1 of 4 on Wednesday.
RH swung 1 of 4 1st Pitch on Monday, but 1 of 3 on Wednesday.
LN swung 0 of 2 1st Pitch on Monday, but 0 of 1 on Wednesday.
Harang swung 0 of 1 on Monday and Cueto 0 of 1 on Wednesday.


Again, 39% on Monday, while 24% on Wednesday. That's a dramatic effort on the part of the REDS to be more patient than they were on Monday. Stubbs made the 1st out on the 1st pitch on Wednesday and after watching not one person after him swing at the 1st pitch until he batted again, he noticed it for sure and didn't swing at another 1st pitch the rest of the night.

[Alpha Zero]

To me, not swinging at the first pitch means very little. Just because guys didn't swing at the first thing that Wainright tossed up there doesn't mean that we got a lot of solid, patient ABs. On the contrary, there were a ton of quick outs made until that 6th inning when Stubbs got on and forced Wainright to think about the running game. That resulted in the gopher ball that he served up to Cabrera.

In general, Stubbs and Cabrera need to set the tone and see a lot of pitches. You know Votto and Rolen will give you solid, lengthy ABs, but the Reds need a bit of that at the top of the order as well. Personally, I think Stubbs holds the keys to the Reds' season this year. If he can be patient and OBP over .350, I think the Reds will be successful.

[DaytonFlyer]

Negative: Votto looked awful last night against Wainwright.

Positive: We're only 2 games in.

[Vottomatic]

Negative:
St. Louis has two legitimate aces, and we have none.

[GIDP]

Negative: Letting a pitcher have a 6 pitch inning and things of that nature.
Positive: They are kinda hitting, and just having some bad luck.

[Red in Atl]

Must keep in mind one thing: The Reds opened the season against 2 of the top three pitchers in the league last year. Carpenter and Wainright were number 2 and 3 in the Cy Young voting last year.

No one should have to open the season to that.

[Griffey012]

Negative:
St. Louis has two legitimate aces, and we have none.

And 2 Big - Time hitters, we have 1.

[BLEEDS]

And 2 Big - Time hitters, we have 1.

DING DING!!

In the NL Central, 2 TOR pitchers and 2 Legit hitters ought to get you over the top.

Our only hope is that our 3/4/5 guys can win 60% of their games versus other folks' 3/4/5 guys.

Our combination of "average" 1-3 starters and this offense, it's going to be hard to beat other team's aces.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

[BLEEDS]

To me, not swinging at the first pitch means very little. Just because guys didn't swing at the first thing that Wainright tossed up there doesn't mean that we got a lot of solid, patient ABs.

Totally agree. The end result is more important.

Just yesterday somebody told me that - according to statistics - in basketball if you bounce the ball 3 times, you have a 77% chance of making your free throws.
Okay, so NOTHING about how good you SHOOT free-throws, just the bouncing of the ball makes all the difference. :rolleyes:


Taking pitches is nice, but not if you're going to let them get up 0-1 on you while you watch the first pitch right down broadway.

You don't want Carpenter and Wainwright getting ahead of you in the count then you're toast. If they are throwing you hittable strikes, then swing at them.

How about "NOT SWINGING AT BALLS", now that's a better thing to hang your hat on!
All this work to see how many times we swung at the first pitch is pointless.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

[Alpha Zero]

How about "NOT SWINGING AT BALLS", now that's a better thing to hang your hat on!

This is part of it. The other part of it is not swinging at anything that you don't want to hit (strike or not) until you have 2 strikes on you. You wait for your pitch until you get 2 strikes, and then you go into defensive mode and try to foul away pitches that are close but you can't do anything with. Joey Votto does this well. So does Rolen. But for whatever reason, no other Reds seem to have a handle on this most basic of baseball concepts.

[Kingspoint]

A batter wants to put himself in the best possible position against a pitcher.

That means working the count.

You can't work the count if you're swinging at the first pitch 33% of the time.

In general, the best hitters don't swing at the first pitch as much as the "average" hitter, or the league average, with exceptions of course, as that's why I said, "in general".

It's hard enough to hit the ball (failing 7 of 10 times is a success). So, if you can do something that gives you a greater chance to get one of those 3 of 10 hits, then you do it. The easiest way is to get yourself into one of the "favorable" batter counts, 1-0, 2-0, 3-0, 3-1, and 2-1. You can't do the first 3, and probably not the first 4 situations, if you swing at the 1st Pitch.


Gomes' HR came after he passed on the 1st Pitch. In fact, he passed on the first 4 pitches, going in the count, 1-0, then 2-0, then 2-1, then 2-2, then foulball, then HR. Gomes really worked that count until he saw the pitch that he wanted. That's why you don't swing at the 1st Pitch more often than 1 in 4 PA's. You have to do it 1 in 4 to keep opposing pitchers honest.

[Kingspoint]

Today the REDS swung at the 1st Pitch 26% of the time (9/34), or basically, league average.

Guys not named, "Votto or Cabrera" swung at the 1st Pitch 11% of the time today, as both Votto and Cabrera swung at the 1st Pitch 3 of 4 times. They ended up batting 3 for 7 w/ 1 BB.

Cabrera's always going up there hacking. Votto may be easily pitched around, so he's got to swing at the strikes even if they are 1st Pitch Strikes.

[Kingspoint]

Today's 1st Pitch results:

DS 0/4
OC 3/4
JV 3/4
BP 1/4
SR 0/4
JB 0/4
JG 2/4
RH 0/3
BA 0/3

9/34 total (26%).

The patience yesterday and today paid off. We were able to get Penny to 100 pitches, Boggs to 23 pitches, and finally 2 more Relievers later, Gomes was able to face their 4th Pitcher of the day. He was patient and he ended the game with one swing.

[Kingspoint]

Our only hope is that our 3/4/5 guys can win 60% of their games versus other folks' 3/4/5 guys.



That came through today as Arroyo was dominant.