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View Full Version : Why does Bruce get a free pass?



redlegs2370
04-08-2010, 01:14 PM
During OD many people questioned why Dickerson & Nix were starting instead of Stubbs and Gomes and there seems to be this competition for CF between Dickerson and Stubbs. My question is why can't both Stubbs and Dickerson play at the same time. Could Dickerson do any worse than Bruce? I know Bruce was a #1 draft choice but I don't see what he has done, other than his first couple weeks in the big leagues, to deserve a guaranteed starting spot.

GIDP
04-08-2010, 01:33 PM
2009 OPS
Bruce: .773
Dickerson: .743

Dickerson also had 75 less ABs against lefties than Bruce.

I like Dickerson but Bruce even with his struggles still out produced him.

Ghosts of 1990
04-08-2010, 01:56 PM
He is 23 and his perceived ceiling. I'm growing frustrated with him too.

Gomes/Nix/Dickerson are all journeyman at best. Bruce's ceiling is viewed higher then that.

big boy
04-08-2010, 01:58 PM
Bruce gets a pass because of he is so young.

ukwazoo
04-08-2010, 02:24 PM
His free pass is going to expire soon.

Griffey012
04-08-2010, 02:31 PM
He also has been hitting balls hard thus far, although right at people. It is too early too look at numbers, you have to look at what they are doing with the at bats they have. If they have a good approach, good swings, and hitting balls hard. For the most part Bruce has been doing this.

Ghosts of 1990
04-08-2010, 02:35 PM
He also has been hitting balls hard thus far, although right at people. It is too early too look at numbers, you have to look at what they are doing with the at bats they have. If they have a good approach, good swings, and hitting balls hard. For the most part Bruce has been doing this.

He saw 24 pitches on Opening Day. more then anyone in the lineup in that game. That was lost in the shuffle.

Vottomatic
04-08-2010, 03:04 PM
Bruce = Adam Dunn with defense

Ghosts of 1990
04-08-2010, 03:14 PM
Bruce = Adam Dunn with defense

This used to seem like an ignorant statement but I can't even disagree anymore. He's worthless. I don't get it. I think its nerves.

GIDP
04-08-2010, 03:22 PM
Bruce = Adam Dunn with defense

Adam Dunn with Defense is a 1st ballot hall of famer lol

Fullboat
04-08-2010, 03:33 PM
The Reds need a new hitting coach!!! Someone make it happen please.

sivman17
04-08-2010, 03:38 PM
I am very frustrated with Bruce right now too. But it's only been three games. He hit very well in spring training.

And compared to some of the other guys on the team, he isn't doing a whole lot worse. He's 1 for 12, Rolen is 2 for 12, B Phil is 2 for 11.

As someone mentioned, he is hitting the ball hard, which means eventually they will start dropping for base hits.

Ghosts of 1990
04-08-2010, 03:46 PM
As someone mentioned, he is hitting the ball hard, which means eventually they will start dropping for base hits.

They didn't last year. He's just looking like a bust right now.

batsfan
04-08-2010, 04:17 PM
They didn't last year. He's just looking like a bust right now.

If 1-12 means he is a bust, then so are Hunter Pence and Mark Texieria, who both started the season 0-12. Maybe we should trade Bruce for Vernon Wells, who is batting .714 with 3 home runs, because a hot start in the first week of the season clearly indicates his talent level, as Emilio Bonafacio showed us last year.

How can anyone think Bruce is a bust after his first 12 at bats of the season, especially since he has hit the ball hard? Remember, Bruce is the same age that Homer Bailey was last season, and he looked WAY more like a bust at this time a year ago. Give him a chance.

big boy
04-08-2010, 10:14 PM
This used to seem like an ignorant statement but I can't even disagree anymore. He's worthless. I don't get it. I think its nerves.

Bruce has a long way to go to be as good as Dunn.

TC81190
04-08-2010, 10:21 PM
They didn't last year. He's just looking like a bust right now.

You have a tendency to make some pretty drastic and polarizing statements.

Reds42MLB
04-08-2010, 10:35 PM
3 games into the season? LOL

BoilerBC11
04-08-2010, 10:41 PM
JAYBRUCE32: I'm going to have to say you need to give up that username if you are going to be such a Debbie Downer towards Jay Bruce...

Ghosts of 1990
04-08-2010, 11:01 PM
He has disappointed me since about a month into his career.

ian_madden
04-08-2010, 11:16 PM
Bruce = Adam Dunn with defense

I'll take that. My main problem with Dunn was his defense. Give me Adam Dunn with Bruce's arm any day.

BoilerBC11
04-08-2010, 11:23 PM
He has disappointed me since about a month into his career.

We'll then may I suggest you change your name to a new prospect? How about JuanDuran22?

You should get about 5 years out of him before you inevitably give up on him at the age of 23...

Vottomatic
04-09-2010, 11:34 AM
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Ghosts of 1990
04-09-2010, 12:49 PM
We'll then may I suggest you change your name to a new prospect? How about JuanDuran22?

You should get about 5 years out of him before you inevitably give up on him at the age of 23...

I mean I still LIKE Jay, appreciate the person he is, glad he is a Red, love the way he plays the game, but he's better then this. He has to be. Either he's better then this or a lot of people were wrong about him; scouts, people I've talked to who are paid to know if guys like Bruce turn into good MLB players.

But as much as I love the guy I can't sit here and lie to myself and say he's been our Ryan Braun, our Evan Longoria, or our Justin Upton. Those guys go out and get it done. Jay isn't in the same ballpark. It's really time to get going for him.

BLEEDS
04-09-2010, 01:57 PM
Adam Dunn with Defense is a 1st ballot hall of famer lol

Yeah, no doubt? How is this a slam?!?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
04-09-2010, 01:59 PM
JAYBRUCE32: I'm going to have to say you need to give up that username if you are going to be such a Debbie Downer towards Jay Bruce...


This used to seem like an ignorant statement but I can't even disagree anymore. He's worthless. I don't get it. I think its nerves.

Worthless?!?

Seriously dude, you have issues.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Krawhitham
04-09-2010, 02:02 PM
Adam Dunn with Defense is a 1st ballot hall of famer lol

Dunn with good defense maybe, so far Bruce is just average defense


It is just looks great defense when compared to Dunn

At least Dunn hit .250 but more than Bruce can say so far

Krawhitham
04-09-2010, 02:04 PM
Worthless?!?

Seriously dude, you have issues.

PEACE

-BLEEDS


.223 last season

.083 this season

what is your definition of worthless?

wvu-red-fan
04-09-2010, 02:13 PM
.223 last season

.083 this season

what is your definition of worthless?

If I am going to declare someone "worthless", I won't start by citing batting averages.

Ghosts of 1990
04-09-2010, 02:25 PM
Worthless?!?

Seriously dude, you have issues.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Taken out of context, it was posted yesterday after he popped out to Pujols at first against another LH. Meant to say 'helpless against LH pitching'. But emotions took over. :cool:

Ghosts of 1990
04-09-2010, 02:26 PM
Dunn with good defense maybe, so far Bruce is just average defense


It is just looks great defense when compared to Dunn

At least Dunn hit .250 but more than Bruce can say so far

Wow, disagree STRONGLY.

He's as sound of a RF defensively as you're going to find and he'll only improve until he's about 30. Throwing arm is elite. Range is above average. Makes all routine plays and some spectacular.

My opinion is that you're off base here.

tbball10
04-09-2010, 04:16 PM
.223 last season

.083 this season

what is your definition of worthless?

First of all he only has 12 ab's this season, so the .083 is about as deceiving as it can get. Second, he has hit the ball hard a few times this year, and at worst should be hitting .250. Maybe he will be the unluckiest hitter of all time, but I think it's about to start evening out for Jay.

Vottomatic
04-10-2010, 02:30 PM
I'd rather see Gomes get some of his AB's.

GIDP
04-10-2010, 03:32 PM
Dunn with good defense maybe, so far Bruce is just average defense


It is just looks great defense when compared to Dunn

At least Dunn hit .250 but more than Bruce can say so far

I think you are mistaken. Bruce has a really strong arm and could probably play CF at an average rate.

mdccclxix
04-10-2010, 03:54 PM
How long will we wait?

At least Bruce is keeping a good attitude.

Maybe since his timing and contact is in order he can start hitting the ball where he wants instead of right at the scouting report.

Knightro28
04-10-2010, 03:58 PM
It really is frustrating, but he is absolutely killing the ball. I continue to give him the free pass.

Ghosts of 1990
04-10-2010, 04:03 PM
Krawitham: get a clue. I've read your posts over at the Reds ESPN board as well. There's something you don't like about Bruce that causes you to not be objective.

I'd like to add to the thread that while it will go down in history as Jay Bruce being awful for the first week of the MLB 2010 season, he stung two more balls right at people in today's (Saturday) game. That brings the running total to about 9 times he has done that.

I don't know why Jay Bruce is snakebitten but without any doubt, I have never seen anything like this in my 25+ years of watching the game with a player. It is unbelievable.

RiverRat13
04-10-2010, 07:51 PM
I don't know why Jay Bruce is snakebitten but without any doubt, I have never seen anything like this in my 25+ years of watching the game with a player. It is unbelievable.

+1

flash
04-10-2010, 10:34 PM
2009 OPS
Bruce: .773
Dickerson: .743

Dickerson also had 75 less ABs against lefties than Bruce.

I like Dickerson but Bruce even with his struggles still out produced him.

That statement is just flat out wrong.

First of all, OPS is deceiving because it doesn't figure in SB. They are not counted as part of the total base count because you would also have to figure in CS and subtract. But if you did, Dickerson would have 8 more total bases. Since whether you get a walk or single and steal it becomes a double. If you figure in Dickerson's +8 SB versus Bruce's +0 they both end up with a 773 OPS. Bruce doesn't get anything here.

Fielding wise everyone says Bruce is a better fielder. Really. Dickerson has a RF factor of 2.5 versus Bruce's 2.34. Dickerson had 3 DP's to Bruce's 2. Bruce did have 2 more assists in 120 more chances. Dickerson had 3 errors to Bruce's 2 and a FP of .981 versus Bruce's .991. Remember though Dickerson was playing LF to start the season, a position he had never played before. LF is not a natural position for a left-hander. That is why there are so few of them. No one knows how Bruce would fare in left.

I agree with the question. Bruce is treated special, and it is hard to understand why. he may have a stronger arm, but judging by the stats I just don't see the difference.

Ghosts of 1990
04-11-2010, 01:23 AM
That statement is just flat out wrong.

First of all, OPS is deceiving because it doesn't figure in SB. They are not counted as part of the total base count because you would also have to figure in CS and subtract. But if you did, Dickerson would have 8 more total bases. Since whether you get a walk or single and steal it becomes a double. If you figure in Dickerson's +8 SB versus Bruce's +0 they both end up with a 773 OPS. Bruce doesn't get anything here.

Fielding wise everyone says Bruce is a better fielder. Really. Dickerson has a RF factor of 2.5 versus Bruce's 2.34. Dickerson had 3 DP's to Bruce's 2. Bruce did have 2 more assists in 120 more chances. Dickerson had 3 errors to Bruce's 2 and a FP of .981 versus Bruce's .991. Remember though Dickerson was playing LF to start the season, a position he had never played before. LF is not a natural position for a left-hander. That is why there are so few of them. No one knows how Bruce would fare in left.

I agree with the question. Bruce is treated special, and it is hard to understand why. he may have a stronger arm, but judging by the stats I just don't see the difference.


If Bruce's 2009 BABIP was even the league average, then you're not able to have that last post. The only reason that Dickerson was able to be comparitive to Bruce in OPS was basically because of bad luck. That is fact.

Vottomatic
04-11-2010, 09:43 AM
He's not going to be a superstar, and that's what we need. We probably have several OFers who could do what Bruce is doing.

I'd trade him while his stock is still high because he's young.

BLEEDS
04-11-2010, 12:57 PM
a few nuggets I found on tORG:

1 - stats per dougdirt
""
Jay Bruce has put the ball in play 15 times this season, including 6 line drives. He has 1 hit. I simply can't believe it.
""

Now THAT is BAPIP unlucky!
As much as I rag against BAPIP at times - including last year in particular with Jay Bruce - he has definitely changed his approach since he came back from injury last year, and is absolutely STINGING the ball this year, and - so far - is truly unlucky.

2- posted by OBM:
""
From C. Trent's website:

Quote:
"I haven't seen a guy hit the ball this hard with no success in a long time," Baker said. "He probably doesn't want to see D-Lee in a long while."

Baker said Bruce walked into his office after the game Saturday to apologize for his visible frustration after the line drive to Lee, and to assure his manager that he is still in a good frame of mind. Bruce pointed to the fact he drew a walk earlier in the game, a sign that he is laying off the pitches that got him in trouble last season
http://cnati.com/cincinnati-reds/pre...t-down-001737/
""

At least Bruce isn't changing his approach. That would be the worst thing IMO. I think he is getting better.
While he still tries to pull too much, and sometimes opens up too early - as many lefties do - he is much much better than last year, and can improve.
As long as his head is in the game, I think he'll be fine.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ghosts of 1990
04-11-2010, 09:30 PM
Look, he hit over .300 this spring. He didn't lose that on the flight back to Cincinnati from Arizona. He has had a bad run of luck and now the media, fans, and everyone else is taking notice. He still has some crap at-bats up there but everyone is over-reacting. He needs to have a night where he homers and doubles and then follow it up with a few games of good hard contact and all of this will go away.

And a poster a few posts up is wrong, against RHP he's our best threat still. And I think over the season long haul he'll improve against lefties and cut down his SO%. Long ways still to go although I am frustrated for him.

gedred69
04-11-2010, 11:32 PM
As many have noted, he has socked the ball to where someone happened to be. But, that says there is an accurate book on him. He will have to learn to defy that in order to be successful. On his defense, comparing him to Dunn is laughable. The arm, the accuracy, the range, Dunn couldn't match Bruce in his fantasy dreams! Nobody will test Bruce's arm for the next several years.

bengalsown
04-12-2010, 12:33 AM
Bruce = Adam Dunn with defense

So, one of the best players in MLB?

I love how that's said as if it's a bad thing. What a joke.

Krawhitham
04-12-2010, 01:21 AM
.223 last season

.083 this season

what is your definition of worthless?

First of all he only has 12 ab's this season, so the .083 is about as deceiving as it can get. Second, he has hit the ball hard a few times this year, and at worst should be hitting .250. Maybe he will be the unluckiest hitter of all time, but I think it's about to start evening out for Jay.

All last year everyone kept saying he is hitting the ball hard, they will start dropping it, its just bad luck.

At what point is it the hitter and not just bad luck

Krawhitham
04-12-2010, 01:28 AM
I think you are mistaken. Bruce has a really strong arm and could probably play CF at an average rate.


You're right I was wrong, he is not average

His zone rating last season was 10.728

That is worse than Adam Dunn in RF

28 players with had least 50 games in RF had better zone ratings

It is worse than average

Ghosts of 1990
04-12-2010, 01:34 AM
Krawitham, I don't think you like Bruce a whole lot

OGB
04-12-2010, 01:42 AM
This used to seem like an ignorant statement but I can't even disagree anymore. He's worthless. I don't get it. I think its nerves.

I find it very incredulous that someone whose handle is JayBruce32, would call a player of the same name worthless--a player who turned 23 a week ago, has 43 career HR in 776 career ABs, and was the unanimous#1 rated prospect in baseball 2 years ago. Please, this type of attitude is indicative of what's wrong with Cincinnati sports fans in general.

OGB
04-12-2010, 01:58 AM
The beautiful thing about a message board is that you can go back and reference how completely wrong someone was when a player turns out to be incredibly successful. Maybe some people just inherently have this attitude when it comes to sports/athletes. Frankly I don't get it. Bruce is young and will be just fine.


You're right I was wrong, he is not average

His zone rating last season was 10.728

That is worse than Adam Dunn in RF

28 players with had least 50 games in RF had better zone ratings

It is worse than average

Anyone who has actually watched Jay Bruce knows he is an above average OF, end of story. He is 23 years old.

GIDP
04-12-2010, 12:16 PM
You're right I was wrong, he is not average

His zone rating last season was 10.728

That is worse than Adam Dunn in RF

28 players with had least 50 games in RF had better zone ratings

It is worse than average

He was 4th in all of baseball in UZR/150 last year last year.