question on major league service time

[Will M]

A team controls a player for six years and then they become a free agent. somebody said that in Leake's situation he would still be a free agent after 2015 despite only having ~5.97 years of experience (since he wasn't activated until today). i recall the 'window' being ~20 games into the season.

my question is in regards to Mr Chapman. he dominated AAA today & if he continues to do so I would not want the team to wait until June to call him up. Late May/early June is typically cited as the cutoff for super two status.
what is the cutoff for calling him up so that he is not a free agent until after 2016? ie we would control him for the rest of this year & six more?

[Brutus]

A team controls a player for six years and then they become a free agent. somebody said that in Leake's situation he would still be a free agent after 2015 despite only having ~5.97 years of experience (since he wasn't activated until today). i recall the 'window' being ~20 games into the season.

my question is in regards to Mr Chapman. he dominated AAA today & if he continues to do so I would not want the team to wait until June to call him up. Late May/early June is typically cited as the cutoff for super two status.
what is the cutoff for calling him up so that he is not a free agent until after 2016? ie we would control him for the rest of this year & six more?

It depends on his options. He will have three option seasons, and probably four, because of his age. Since his service will only accrue while he's on the major league roster, we don't know for sure how much service he'll get during the next 2-3 option years.

But assuming he stays on the big league roster for good, the Reds would essentially have him under control this year, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016. If he were held, during the option seasons, for essentially more than 172 days, they would also have him for the 2017 season before being a free agent. That's unlikely, though.

EDIT: Actually, he would need to be in the minors for more than 172 days during his option years to be under the Reds' control in 2017 as there are nearly 3 weeks each season above and beyond what constitutes a full year of service. So in reality, now that I think about it, he would have to be in the minors for more than 200 days during his option years to remain under 6 years of service before 2017.

[Will M]

It depends on his options. He will have three option seasons, and probably four, because of his age. Since his service will only accrue while he's on the major league roster, we don't know for sure how much service he'll get during the next 2-3 option years.

But assuming he stays on the big league roster for good, the Reds would essentially have him under control this year, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016. If he were held, during the option seasons, for essentially more than 172 days, they would also have him for the 2017 season before being a free agent. That's unlikely, though.

EDIT: Actually, he would need to be in the minors for more than 172 days during his option years to be under the Reds' control in 2017 as there are nearly 3 weeks each season above and beyond what constitutes a full year of service. So in reality, now that I think about it, he would have to be in the minors for more than 200 days during his option years to remain under 6 years of service before 2017.

thanks.

i guess i'm still a bit confused.

you say the Reds would control him for 2010-2016. thats seven years not six.

if they called him up to pitch Saturday 4/17/2010 and he never went back to the minors would he be a free agent after 2015 (6 years) or 2016 (7 years)?
what if they waited until 5/1/2010? would that make a difference?

[Brutus]

thanks.

i guess i'm still a bit confused.

you say the Reds would control him for 2010-2016. thats seven years not six.

if they called him up to pitch Saturday 4/17/2010 and he never went back to the minors would he be a free agent after 2015 (6 years) or 2016 (7 years)?
what if they waited until 5/1/2010? would that make a difference?

Essentially yes it would make a difference. The Reds need to have him on the major league roster less than 172 calendar days this season to keep him under a full year of service. But assuming he'll be on the major league roster from the time he gets called up through the rest of his contract, that's 20 days each of the other seasons that will accrue over 172 days in each year. So in reality, the Reds might need to burn 120 days (20 * 6 seasons) to keep him under control for 2016.

EDIT: If my math is correct, July 19 is the earliest they could call him up to keep that extra year before free agency (2016).

[Will M]

Essentially yes it would make a difference. The Reds need to have him on the major league roster less than 172 calendar days this season to keep him under a full year of service. But assuming he'll be on the major league roster from the time he gets called up through the rest of his contract, that's 20 days each of the other seasons that will accrue over 172 days in each year. So in reality, the Reds might need to burn 120 days (20 * 6 seasons) to keep him under control for 2016.

EDIT: If my math is correct, July 19 is the earliest they could call him up to keep that extra year before free agency (2016).


thanks. i got it now.

if he pitches in AAA like he did today i'd have to think he'll be here prior to July 19th

[Will M]

Brutus: i totally respect your knowledge but take a look at this discussion regarding the Giants and Posey: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/04/calling-up-buster-posey.html
It would imply that if the Reds brought up Chapman now he would have say 5.9 years of service after 2015 and therefore not be a free agent until after 2016. you seem to think a guy can get more than a years worth of service in one year (by counting days). this article implies that this is not the case.

[blumj]

Brutus: i totally respect your knowledge but take a look at this discussion regarding the Giants and Posey: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/04/calling-up-buster-posey.html
It would imply that if the Reds brought up Chapman now he would have say 5.9 years of service after 2015 and therefore not be a free agent until after 2016. you seem to think a guy can get more than a years worth of service in one year (by counting days). this article implies that this is not the case.
I'm pretty sure Rick Porcello just did, but the difference is only about 10 days. Without doing the counting, the Reds would probably avoid this with Chapman just by waiting something like 3-4 more days from today. I'm thinking they'll probably have to option Leake at some point to avoid it with him, but it may still have to be for more than 10 days in the same season for it to count, I'm not completely sure how that works.

[Brutus]

Brutus: i totally respect your knowledge but take a look at this discussion regarding the Giants and Posey: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/04/calling-up-buster-posey.html
It would imply that if the Reds brought up Chapman now he would have say 5.9 years of service after 2015 and therefore not be a free agent until after 2016. you seem to think a guy can get more than a years worth of service in one year (by counting days). this article implies that this is not the case.

I thought about it after I answered yesterday, and I think I misspoke on that aspect. Players are capped at a year of service within the season, so if they got to 172 days, anything above and beyond that would not count... meaning those extra days would not count toward a player's overall service. Good catch on that.

[blumj]

Does that mean, if I'd checked Porcello's service time a week ago, it would have been exactly 1 and Cot's has already updated it?

[Brutus]

Does that mean, if I'd checked Porcello's service time a week ago, it would have been exactly 1 and Cot's has already updated it?

That's a good point. Usually Cot's is updated after the season, but perhaps they're updating it during the year now. I'm not sure.

Was Porcello ever on an active roster in 2008 late in the year? Even if he didn't pitch, merely being on the 25-man roster would have accrued service - which could explain those extra 13 days.

I am pretty sure, though, that a season is capped at the 172 days.

[klw]

All this is assuming that the collective bargaining agreement in effect in 5 years has the same timetable for arbitration and free agency as the current one.

[blumj]

NM

[IslandRed]

Found this article (http://www.bizofbaseball.com/index.php?Itemid=75&id=662&option=com_content&task=view) that sheds some light on the subject. I did not know the bolded part:


Under the CBA, 1 year of service is defined as 172 days. A player may earn up to 172 days of Major League service during a championship season (regular season), which generally lasts 183 calendar days. If a player is sent to the minor leagues on optional assignment for a total of 20 days or less during a season, he receives service time for the entire season.

That last provision is how they prevent teams from penny-ante jacking around with free agency thresholds, I guess.

[Will M]

thanks everyone.

it would seem that the Reds could call Chapman up fairly soon & still keep him through 2016. he might be a 'super two' after 2011 but we would have his rights for 2010 plus six more seasons.

if Chapman continues to pitch well the Reds will have to make a decision soon on what to do. nice problem to have.

[Sea Ray]

The way it looks right now the Reds will be very justified in leaving Chapman in AAA long enough to put off free agency a year and avoid Super Two status. Chapman does not look ready for the Bigs nor do they have a spot in the rotation open for him.