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Redsfan320
04-15-2010, 04:55 PM
He's not in tonight's lineup either, with CDick filling in again. He (Stubbs) says it's nothing major. I hope not, we need his production. He's been raking so far this season.

320

redsfan30
04-15-2010, 04:57 PM
He's been raking?

membengal
04-15-2010, 05:21 PM
Good timing on the sore back, frankly, as Volstad and Johnson are rather nasty RHers and Dickerson a better match on paper for them than Stubbs at this point.

Homer Bailey
04-15-2010, 05:21 PM
I'm as big of a Stubbs supporter as their is, but I'll go ahead and take care of TRF's inevitable response:

He's hitting .200 with a OBP below .300, and is striking out at a 40% clip. He is NOT raking.

westofyou
04-15-2010, 05:22 PM
He's been raking?

Must be cleaning up the leaves he missed last winter.

nate
04-15-2010, 05:24 PM
Maybe raking is how he hurt his back?

:cool:

RedsManRick
04-15-2010, 06:37 PM
Did this happen on his slide in to home the other night? It seemed like he came up a bit lame.

_Sir_Charles_
04-15-2010, 06:44 PM
Did this happen on his slide in to home the other night? It seemed like he came up a bit lame.

That's what I was thinking too.

Side note: Nix was scratched tonight due to the flu, but apparently Stubbs is well enough he could play if needed.

Redsfan320
04-15-2010, 09:33 PM
I said previously he was raking. My bad. For some reason, it had seemed to me he was hitting well. But apparently not. The stats don't lie.

My Bad!,

320

Spring~Fields
04-16-2010, 12:41 AM
Rake Average OBP SLG OPS
Miguel Cairo .167 .167 .167 .333
Jay Bruce .171 .237 .200 .437
Drew Stubbs .200 .273 .367 .639
O. Cabrera .205 .200 .410 .610
R. Hernandez .217 .333 .304 .638
Scott Rolen .219 .342 .500 .842
Laynce Nix .222 .300 .222 .522
B. Phillips .231 .302 .385 .687
Jonny Gomes .259 .300 .556 .856
Joey Votto .263 .349 .395 .744
C. Dickerson .333 .364 .381 .745
Ryan Hanigan .455 .500 .818 1.318
Paul Janish .500 .600 1.500 2.100

Big Klu
04-16-2010, 11:32 AM
I hurt my back raking last year.

Falls City Beer
04-16-2010, 11:36 AM
Remember when Stubbs was supposed to be good?

Yeah, me neither. Lol. The Reds. lol

Ghosts of 1990
04-16-2010, 11:38 AM
Anyone think Stubbs will be held out of tonight's game against the LH Zach Duke?

camisadelgolf
04-16-2010, 11:39 AM
I hurt my back raking last year.
John Vander Wal says you're lucky to have survived.

Brutus
04-16-2010, 12:03 PM
Who's the greatest raker of all-time? I say Duane Kuiper.

TRF
04-16-2010, 12:29 PM
Anyone think Stubbs will be held out of tonight's game against the LH Zach Duke?

I expect him to start. With any luck, the time off helped. He should hit the LH.

I expect Dickerson to sit despite having a good night last night. Gomes in LF, Stubbs in CF.

westofyou
04-16-2010, 12:31 PM
Who's the greatest raker of all-time? I say Duane Kuiper.

13% of Kuipers hits were EBH, I nominate Roy Thomas (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/thomaro01.shtml), only 10.4% of his 1500 plus hits were EBH

Brutus
04-16-2010, 12:37 PM
13% of Kuipers hits were EBH, I nominate Roy Thomas (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/thomaro01.shtml), only 10.4% of his 1500 plus hits were EBH

You make a compelling case. But Kuiper - he's a first-ballot raker hall-of-famer.

Homer Bailey
04-16-2010, 12:45 PM
Anyone think Stubbs will be held out of tonight's game against the LH Zach Duke?

Why would Dickerson start against a LHP over Stubbs?

nate
04-16-2010, 01:43 PM
Why would Dickerson start against a LHP over Stubbs?

Why does Gomes start against RHP?

Only Rod Serling can answer these questions.

:cool:

Homer Bailey
04-16-2010, 01:48 PM
Why does Gomes start against RHP?

Only Rod Serling can answer these questions.

:cool:

Gomes:

.759 Career OPS vs. Righties
.859 OPS in 2009 vs. Righties

Dickerson
.685 Career OPS vs. Lefties
.623 OPS vs. Lefties in 2009


It's not like Gomes is weak vs. RHP, whereas Dickerson is quite weak vs. LHP.

nate
04-16-2010, 01:52 PM
Gomes:

.759 Career OPS vs. Righties
.859 OPS in 2009 vs. Righties

Dickerson
.685 Career OPS vs. Lefties
.623 OPS vs. Lefties in 2009


It's not like Gomes is weak vs. RHP, whereas Dickerson is quite weak vs. LHP.

And Dickerson's OPS vs RHP?

And defense?

Homer Bailey
04-16-2010, 02:08 PM
And Dickerson's OPS vs RHP?

And defense?

I was not comparing Gomes vs. Dickerson vs. RHP or Dickerson vs. Stubbs vs. LHP in the post you are referring to. I'm simply showing that Gomes is far from weak against RHP, somewhat justifying him starting against RHP. Also, Gomes has a lot more power than Dickerson, and signifcantly outproduced Dickerson a year ago against RHP (and LHP for that matter).

Dickerson holds no advantage over Stubbs against LHP in anyway whatsoever.

I'm off to the Cubs game. I feel dirty.

Ghosts of 1990
04-16-2010, 03:03 PM
I think tonight's OF will be:
LF Dickerson
CF Stubbs
RF Gomes

I think Dusty sits Bruce again against the LH Duke

nate
04-16-2010, 03:25 PM
I was not comparing Gomes vs. Dickerson vs. RHP or Dickerson vs. Stubbs vs. LHP in the post you are referring to. I'm simply showing that Gomes is far from weak against RHP, somewhat justifying him starting against RHP.

But Dickerson is better, as is his defense.


Also, Gomes has a lot more power than Dickerson,

But the Reds needs on-base skills in the spot Dickerson would bat more than they need the occasional HR Gomes would hit in the 6-spot.


and signifcantly outproduced Dickerson a year ago against RHP (and LHP for that matter).

Yet Dickerson was much more valuable overall and that's why we use career numbers.


Dickerson holds no advantage over Stubbs against LHP in anyway whatsoever.

I was making the point that Dickerson should start vs. RHP over Gomes.


I'm off to the Cubs game. I feel dirty.

You should!

:cool:

Falls City Beer
04-16-2010, 03:26 PM
Dickerson is clearly the superior player to Stubbs. Inarguable at this point.

TRF
04-16-2010, 03:30 PM
I am soooo staying out of this, but... LH gets the nod, Stubbs if healthy should be in the lineup. Bruce should sit, put Dickerson in RF. Stubbs is scuffling, but still should lead off. (Dustyball!) Dickerson, NOT scuffling right now will bat 7th. OCab in the 2 hole. yippee.

Bumstead
04-16-2010, 03:32 PM
Many things are inarguable at almost any point "irregardless" of the situation....

Ghosts of 1990
04-16-2010, 04:25 PM
I am soooo staying out of this, but... LH gets the nod, Stubbs if healthy should be in the lineup. Bruce should sit, put Dickerson in RF. Stubbs is scuffling, but still should lead off. (Dustyball!) Dickerson, NOT scuffling right now will bat 7th. OCab in the 2 hole. yippee.

Personally I think if we want to find out what we have in Bruce we play him every day. It's obvious we aren't going to the World Series this year, so it does little to play Dickerson over him in right field. Can't just keep sitting Bruce against LH pitching. Let him accumulate some at-bats against them. If he's going to hit .223 again, let him. If he's healthy he should play. That's just my two cents.

TRF
04-16-2010, 04:30 PM
Personally I think if we want to find out what we have in Bruce we play him every day. It's obvious we aren't going to the World Series this year, so it does little to play Dickerson over him in right field. Can't just keep sitting Bruce against LH pitching. Let him accumulate some at-bats against them. If he's going to hit .223 again, let him. If he's healthy he should play. That's just my two cents.

Mine is right now, he couldn't hit his way out of a wet paper bag. Give him the night off.

Spring~Fields
04-16-2010, 04:39 PM
Some might argue that the Reds need to find out what they have with their entire outfield core, at the major league level and AAA. I still think it a strange coincidence that a large majority of the Reds players are struggling with the bat at the same time. Doesnít seem to matter what their age, experience, history, position or name is.

Of course most of them had questionable on base percentages before the season started.

Then again batters who have higher OBP donít necessarily get the playing time or AB/PA under the current regime, let alone the recent hot hand. Seems to take until August for the patterns to be adjusted.

I think that they ought to go on a musical chair rotation in the OF and let them all play as much as possible. Nix, Gomes, Stubbs, Dickerson, Bruce.

reds44
04-16-2010, 04:49 PM
Lets play a game, a game we will call blind outfield.

Matchup each outfielder, with his career stats.

Player A: .241/.330/.472/.802
Player B: .237/.306/.449/.755
Player C: .286/.382/.437/.818
Player D: .236/.277/.419/.696
Player E: .257/.316/.429/.744

Ready, go.

Mario-Rijo
04-16-2010, 04:53 PM
It'll be:

LF: Gomes
CF: Stubbs
RF: Bruce

As it should be. Bruce needs AB's to deal with his issues.

reds44
04-16-2010, 05:13 PM
Miguel Cairo is batting 5th tonight.

RedsManRick
04-16-2010, 05:15 PM
Lets play a game, a game we will call blind outfield.

Matchup each outfielder, with his career stats.

Player A: .241/.330/.472/.802 - Gomes
Player B: .237/.306/.449/.755 - Nix
Player C: .286/.382/.437/.818 - Dickerson
Player D: .236/.277/.419/.696 - Stubbs
Player E: .257/.316/.429/.744 - Bruce

Ready, go.

It was hard not to cheat, but those are my guesses...

Brutus
04-16-2010, 05:15 PM
Miguel Cairo is batting 5th tonight.

LOL that's a good one.

No, really, who's batting 5th?
:beerme:

RedsManRick
04-16-2010, 05:17 PM
Miguel Cairo is batting 5th tonight.

:bang: :angry: :thumbdown: :all_cohol :explode: :yikes: :censored: :rant:

reds44
04-16-2010, 05:17 PM
It was hard not to cheat, but those are my guesses...
Gomes
Bruce
Dickerson
Nix
Stubbs

Brutus
04-16-2010, 05:18 PM
:bang: :angry: :thumbdown: :all_cohol :explode: :yikes: :censored: :rant:

What he said.

Gainesville Red
04-16-2010, 05:33 PM
Votto's been struggling a little, no question. A night off isn't outrageous.

But how about sitting him on a night when he's not going against a pitcher that he's 10/16 against, w/ a couple of walks.

Cairo, that's the ticket.

OnBaseMachine
04-16-2010, 07:11 PM
Votto's been struggling a little, no question. A night off isn't outrageous.

But how about sitting him on a night when he's not going against a pitcher that he's 10/16 against, w/ a couple of walks.

Cairo, that's the ticket.

No kidding. You can't sit him and Scott Rolen on the same night. Miguel Cairo shouldn't be on a major league roster, let alone starting and batting 5th. I'm a diehard Reds fan, I hate to miss even one pitch of a game, but when I saw that lineup I felt like just skipping out on watching the game tonight. If the Reds aren't going to try to win then why should I watch? Mike Leake's the only thing keeping me around to watch the game tonight.

camisadelgolf
04-16-2010, 07:39 PM
Dickerson is clearly the superior player to Stubbs. Inarguable at this point.
You're wrong.

11larkin11
04-16-2010, 07:43 PM
Mine is right now, he couldn't hit his way out of a wet paper bag. Give him the night off.

He's hitting .313 in the last 4 games.

TRF
04-16-2010, 08:46 PM
nevermind.

Big Klu
04-16-2010, 09:21 PM
No kidding. You can't sit him and Scott Rolen on the same night. Miguel Cairo shouldn't be on a major league roster, let alone starting and batting 5th. I'm a diehard Reds fan, I hate to miss even one pitch of a game, but when I saw that lineup I felt like just skipping out on watching the game tonight. If the Reds aren't going to try to win then why should I watch? Mike Leake's the only thing keeping me around to watch the game tonight.

According to Dusty, Votto and Rolen are both sick with the flu, and Votto also tweaked his back a little.

reds44
04-16-2010, 09:30 PM
You're wrong.
I'm with FCB here. Look at the stats, you can't argue it.

Homer Bailey
04-17-2010, 12:25 AM
But Dickerson is better, as is his defense.

Career numbers? Yes. As a Red? No, Gomes is better, at least on offense.


But the Reds needs on-base skills in the spot Dickerson would bat more than they need the occasional HR Gomes would hit in the 6-spot.

No disagreement. I think it should go Dickerson Stubbs 1-2 against RHP. My entire point was Dickerson vs. Stubbs against LHP is not debateable. You're point was different.


Yet Dickerson was much more valuable overall and that's why we use career numbers.

Hard to just ignore what Gomes has done as a Red against RHP. He;s had rough years in the past due to injuries, but has produced as a Red. Is it fool proof? No. But until he doesn't produce, I want him in LF (Unless Dusty will do CD-DS 1-2, which he won't).




I was making the point that Dickerson should start vs. RHP over Gomes.

It's a fair point. I'll refer to above as to why I respectfully disagree.



You should!


I need to shower!

Ron Madden
04-17-2010, 04:13 AM
You're wrong.

No he's not.

TheNext44
04-17-2010, 04:59 AM
I'm with FCB here. Look at the stats, you can't argue it.

Actually, neither has played enough for one to use their stats to argue anything conclusive. I'm not sure which one is better at this point, but I am sure that their stats don't convince me one way or the other, there simply is not enough of them yet.

Based on what we do know, there's good reason to start each one. Dickerson gives you more OBP which this team needs and is most important, but Stubbs gives you more defense, power and speed. What we don't know is how much more of what they excel at, each player provides.

reds44
04-17-2010, 05:10 AM
Actually, neither has played enough for one to use their stats to argue anything conclusive. I'm not sure which one is better at this point, but I am sure that their stats don't convince me one way or the other, there simply is not enough of them yet.

Based on what we do know, there's good reason to start each one. Dickerson gives you more OBP which this team needs and is most important, but Stubbs gives you more defense, power and speed. What we don't know is how much more of what they excel at, each player provides.
Stubbs is slugging .367 this year and .401 in the minors, in what world does he provide prower? Dickerson and Stubbs pretty much wash defensively (slight edge to Stubbs).

Sorry, until Dickerson stops getting on base 38% of the time, he needs to be playing. He's been in the majors for parts of 3 seasons now, and he always gets on base.

I understand both have small major league sample sizes, but here are their minor league numbers.
Dickerson: .260/.363/.414/.776
Stubbs: .269/.364/.401/.765

Notice a big difference? Me neither.

Then their major league numbers?
Dickerson: .286/.382/.437/.818
Stubbs: .257/.316/.429/.744

I'm not really sure why Stubbs is so untouchable to people on here, it really doesn't make a lot of sense. Right now he's struck out 14 times in 33 ABs, he has a .289 OBP and a .333 SLG. He's been terrible. When you consider the fact that he had a career .268 batting average in the minors and a SLG percentage just over .400, and last year he OPS'd just over .700 in AAA, I'm not sure what people expect.

What he did well in the minors is, he walked a lot, and he's fast. So far in the majors, he's lost about .30 points in his BA/OB split.

This is what Drew Stubbs is going to do:
He's gonna hit for a (realtively) low average.
He's not gonna hit for much power.
He's gonna steal bases.
He's gonna walk a lot.
He's gonna strike out a lot.

He's basically right handed Chris Dickerson. Each has their slight advantages over the other one, but they end up being similar players. People have been saying that for awhile now, and nothing has shown Stubbs to be a better player than Dickerson.

Platoon them in CF, and lead them off. Sometimes play Dickerson in LF and Stubbs in CF, and when you do that hit them 1-2. It's not hard.

mth123
04-17-2010, 08:17 AM
Stubbs is slugging .367 this year and .401 in the minors, in what world does he provide prower? Dickerson and Stubbs pretty much wash defensively (slight edge to Stubbs).

Sorry, until Dickerson stops getting on base 38% of the time, he needs to be playing. He's been in the majors for parts of 3 seasons now, and he always gets on base.

I understand both have small major league sample sizes, but here are their minor league numbers.
Dickerson: .260/.363/.414/.776
Stubbs: .269/.364/.401/.765

Notice a big difference? Me neither.

Then their major league numbers?
Dickerson: .286/.382/.437/.818
Stubbs: .257/.316/.429/.744

I'm not really sure why Stubbs is so untouchable to people on here, it really doesn't make a lot of sense. Right now he's struck out 14 times in 33 ABs, he has a .289 OBP and a .333 SLG. He's been terrible. When you consider the fact that he had a career .268 batting average in the minors and a SLG percentage just over .400, and last year he OPS'd just over .700 in AAA, I'm not sure what people expect.

What he did well in the minors is, he walked a lot, and he's fast. So far in the majors, he's lost about .30 points in his BA/OB split.

This is what Drew Stubbs is going to do:
He's gonna hit for a (realtively) low average.
He's not gonna hit for much power.
He's gonna steal bases.
He's gonna walk a lot.
He's gonna strike out a lot.

He's basically right handed Chris Dickerson. Each has their slight advantages over the other one, but they end up being similar players. People have been saying that for awhile now, and nothing has shown Stubbs to be a better player than Dickerson.

Platoon them in CF, and lead them off. Sometimes play Dickerson in LF and Stubbs in CF, and when you do that hit them 1-2. It's not hard.

This is a pretty good post, but what is missing here is a look at their minor league stats from AA up. Stubbs was a major college player who was drafted and padded a lot of those career minor league numbers with 867 PAs at Billings and Dayton. These are places where he should have excelled as a college player from a place like Texas. At AAA in 2009 he put up an OPS of .713 in over 400 PAs and clearly struggled as he was advancing, and the question I and I think TRF have been asking is whether he should stay in AAA a lttle longer to figure it out.

Dickerson, OTOH, was properly left in AAA until he figured things out. His final season there (2008) he had roughly the same number of PA as Stubbs last year but his OPS was a robust .867 and not a puny .713. The difference between these guys other than the clear lefty vs righty thing, is that Dickerson was left in AAA long enough to figure it out and become useful a little more consistently.

Stubbs was pretty impressive late last year and during spring and IMO won the right to a look as the primary CF for a couple months, but he needs to get it together or go down and get more PAs in AAA until he puts it together down there like Dickerson did. As my other thread states: "Stubbs needs to hit."

For now, I'd play Stubbs most of the time with Dickerson getting a couple starts a week against a RHP and may throw him a bone with an occassional start in LF. If Stubbs still looks awful at the plate around Memorial day, I'd send him down to learn to hit a breaking ball (and leave him down until he does) and bring up Heisey or someone to settle into a strict platoon with Dickerson in CF.

nate
04-17-2010, 09:16 AM
Career numbers? Yes. As a Red? No, Gomes is better, at least on offense.

Not much better. And he's far worse on defense.


Hard to just ignore what Gomes has done as a Red against RHP. He;s had rough years in the past due to injuries, but has produced as a Red. Is it fool proof? No. But until he doesn't produce, I want him in LF (Unless Dusty will do CD-DS 1-2, which he won't).

I want him (Gomes) to start vs. LHP and pinch hit.


I need to shower!

Or call in the CDC!

:cool:

Spring~Fields
04-17-2010, 11:13 AM
Stubbs is slugging .367 this year and .401 in the minors, in what world does he provide prower? Dickerson and Stubbs pretty much wash defensively (slight edge to Stubbs).

Sorry, until Dickerson stops getting on base 38% of the time, he needs to be playing. He's been in the majors for parts of 3 seasons now, and he always gets on base.

I understand both have small major league sample sizes, but here are their minor league numbers.
Dickerson: .260/.363/.414/.776
Stubbs: .269/.364/.401/.765

Notice a big difference? Me neither.

Then their major league numbers?
Dickerson: .286/.382/.437/.818
Stubbs: .257/.316/.429/.744

I'm not really sure why Stubbs is so untouchable to people on here, it really doesn't make a lot of sense. Right now he's struck out 14 times in 33 ABs, he has a .289 OBP and a .333 SLG. He's been terrible. When you consider the fact that he had a career .268 batting average in the minors and a SLG percentage just over .400, and last year he OPS'd just over .700 in AAA, I'm not sure what people expect.

What he did well in the minors is, he walked a lot, and he's fast. So far in the majors, he's lost about .30 points in his BA/OB split.

This is what Drew Stubbs is going to do:
He's gonna hit for a (realtively) low average.
He's not gonna hit for much power.
He's gonna steal bases.
He's gonna walk a lot.
He's gonna strike out a lot.

He's basically right handed Chris Dickerson. Each has their slight advantages over the other one, but they end up being similar players. People have been saying that for awhile now, and nothing has shown Stubbs to be a better player than Dickerson.

Platoon them in CF, and lead them off. Sometimes play Dickerson in LF and Stubbs in CF, and when you do that hit them 1-2. It's not hard.

I have to agree with much of what you are saying because of how the players are producing or not at the present time. I don't agree completely, but so what, there is always some "yeah but" exception to situations.

I want to respond to your question or comment. "I'm not really sure why Stubbs is so untouchable to people on here, it really doesn't make a lot of sense."

Because fans have always been enamored with the homerun. They see some home runs from a guy and they fall in love with what might be.

To answer your own question think about Bruce, Gomes and then Stubbs, and you will find the potential for the HR as a driver behind peoples motivation for seeing those players getting the most playing time.

What is their objective evidence for playing guys who aren’t getting the job done right now, they might later, probably will, but right now? I wonder if defense becomes a window dressing for their hidden agenda of their love for the HR.

Phillips at cleanup, why? He might hit homeruns like he did that one year. They don’t have anyone else to bat fourth, while the fans cry to see Gomes, Stubbs, Bruce and Rolen, something doesn’t fly there. Those guys are a must have, but, they aren’t even good enough to bump Phillips out of the cleanup role?

Why?
Hernandez catching over Hanigan? Hernandez has more power and will hit more homeruns, what else?
Cabrera over Janish when it is clear who is the better defender and that this pitching staff needs all the help they can get? Cabrera has more power than Janish, what else?
Bruce, Gomes, Stubbs over Dickerson, potential home runs and nothing else right now.

For the fan, performance has much to do with who is performing now and producing. Although fans are willing to forgo that in lieu of a thought that, player x, y, or z might hit a HR and if he isn’t playing they will miss out.

What are the fans complaining about? Poor plate approaches, swinging at pitches out of the zone and letting strikes go by, well, the fans should be pleased, the players are swinging away, and not clogging up the bases.

The problem might be that they can’t have it both ways with players who probably would not be starting on the better teams in baseball, if getting much playing time at all. They have a conflict.

Instead of the man selling his soul for money or power, the baseball fan will sell wins for the chance to see a HR.

They seem to forget that the skill, talent, mechanics and ability that goes into producing a higher on base percentage is much of the same things that enable the players ability to hit homeruns. If they can’t get to first, they can’t get to home plate.

It is easy to see who should be getting playing time at this point in the season, can that change, sure, it does and will, but right now it is clear who is and who is not.



GP AB BA OBP SLG OPS
Dickerson 10 22 .364 .391 .500 .891
Gomes 10 31 .258 .294 .548 .843
Stubbs 9 33 .182 .289 .333 .623
Nix 7 9 .222 .300 .222 .522
Bruce 11 38 .158 .238 .184 .422

Hernandez 8 23 .217 .333 .304 .638
Hanigan 6 14 .429 .500 .714 1.214

Phillips 11 43 .233 .313 .372 .685
at cleanup ?
Cabrera 10 43 .209 .200 .395 .595
Janish not enough playing time to bother

Objectively, who should be getting the playing time with the PA/AB now?


It is not about small samples when it comes to who is performing and producing better at this time, and the ones that are producing should be getting the most playing time until that changes. There are not any perennial all stars on this Reds team, maybe in the past, maybe in the future, but not right now.

edit: dear old after thoughts.


Platoon them in CF, and lead them off. Sometimes play Dickerson in LF and Stubbs in CF, and when you do that hit them 1-2. It's not hard.

You might be waffling a bit here yourself. As it appears that you don’t want to disrupt the left field and right field, and does home run potential have something to do with that? When you know clearly that a favorite of ours, the young Jay Bruce is really struggling and hurting the team at the plate.

And this, why are guys with sore backs having to play right now? Everyone uses the claim, "it is early", ok, so why play guys with back problems? NOW?

camisadelgolf
04-17-2010, 04:04 PM
No he's not.
Yes, he is.

KronoRed
04-17-2010, 04:15 PM
Yes, he is.

No times infinity :D

reds44
04-17-2010, 05:49 PM
Yes, he is.
Anybody who, at this point, says Stubbs is better than Dickerson is simpy ignoring facts.

Spring~Fields
04-17-2010, 06:07 PM
Anybody who, at this point, says Stubbs is better than Dickerson is simpy ignoring facts.

Aren't they ignoring some facts by allowing for Jay Bruce over any of Stubbs, Dickerson, Gomes and maybe even Nix at this point?

KronoRed
04-17-2010, 06:26 PM
Aren't they ignoring some facts by allowing for Jay Bruce over any of Stubbs, Dickerson, Gomes and maybe even Nix at this point?

Sure, Bruce and Stubbs both have the "big potential" hat with them vs the others but it is baffling that Dickerson is 'over the hill' at 28 :confused:

Spring~Fields
04-17-2010, 06:30 PM
Sure, Bruce and Stubbs both have the "big potential" hat with them vs the others but it is baffling that Dickerson is 'over the hill' at 28 :confused:

Well Dickerson probably made the wrong fashion statement, opting for green, when he should be wearing more Dusty Baker designer wrist bans. ;)

camisadelgolf
04-17-2010, 08:18 PM
Anybody who, at this point, says Stubbs is better than Dickerson is simpy ignoring facts.
I would never say that Dickerson has out-performed Stubbs--but we're dealing with small sample sizes. I'd say Stubbs is the better baseball player and that he just doesn't yet have the numbers to show it. If you want to base your argument on numbers alone, then you could make a very strong argument that Drew Stubbs is better than Jay Bruce.

reds44
04-17-2010, 08:22 PM
I would never say that Dickerson has out-performed Stubbs--but we're dealing with small sample sizes. I'd say Stubbs is the better baseball player and that he just doesn't yet have the numbers to show it. If you want to base your argument on numbers alone, then you could make a very strong argument that Drew Stubbs is better than Jay Bruce.
I made a post detailing their numbers. They were roughly even in the minors, and Dickerson has been the far superior pro. No part of Stubbs' OPS of .700 in AAA last season makes me think he's going to be any better in the majors, nor should it.

TRF
04-17-2010, 08:35 PM
Its about trends. Dickerson in AA and AAA outhit Stubbs at the same levels. and it isn't close.

camisadelgolf
04-17-2010, 08:49 PM
Its about trends. Dickerson in AA and AAA outhit Stubbs at the same levels. and it isn't close.
Chris Dickerson was also older at each level and is still older at this moment.

TRF
04-17-2010, 09:02 PM
Chris Dickerson was also older at each level and is still older at this moment.

Kinda making my point. Stubbs needed more time.

mth123
04-17-2010, 09:34 PM
Kinda making my point. Stubbs needed more time.

Agree. When Stubbs is Dickerson's age, I'd wager that he'll be better than Dickerson is right now, but Stubbs right now never mastered the high minors. His debut and spring give him some rope, but he needs to hit.

TheNext44
04-17-2010, 09:47 PM
Stubbs is slugging .367 this year and .401 in the minors, in what world does he provide prower? Dickerson and Stubbs pretty much wash defensively (slight edge to Stubbs).

8 homers at the end of last year. That's the world where Stubbs provided power. That fact the he is in a slump THE FIRST TEN GAMES OF THE SEASON says much less about his power than what he did the in 6 times as many AB's at the end of last season, and what he did at the end of last season doesn't say much.


Sorry, until Dickerson stops getting on base 38% of the time, he needs to be playing. He's been in the majors for parts of 3 seasons now, and he always gets on base.

Agreed and he is playing. Just not sure he needs to play at the expense of Stubbs.


I understand both have small major league sample sizes,

Then why are you quoting them later?


but here are their minor league numbers.
Dickerson: .260/.363/.414/.776
Stubbs: .269/.364/.401/.765

Notice a big difference? Me neither.

Then how can you say one is better than the other?


Then their major league numbers?
Dickerson: .286/.382/.437/.818
Stubbs: .257/.316/.429/.744

Oh, that's how, but quoting numbers which you admit are too small. (apology for the snark)


I'm not really sure why Stubbs is so untouchable to people on here, it really doesn't make a lot of sense. Right now he's struck out 14 times in 33 ABs, he has a .289 OBP and a .333 SLG. He's been terrible. When you consider the fact that he had a career .268 batting average in the minors and a SLG percentage just over .400, and last year he OPS'd just over .700 in AAA, I'm not sure what people expect.

Again quoting stats that just don't mean much. But I agree that he should not be untouchable.

The ones right now are too small, and the ones in the minors were while he was developing.


What he did well in the minors is, he walked a lot, and he's fast. So far in the majors, he's lost about .30 points in his BA/OB split.

Agree, he needs to work on his OBP. among other things.


This is what Drew Stubbs is going to do:
He's gonna hit for a (realtively) low average.
He's not gonna hit for much power.
He's gonna steal bases.
He's gonna walk a lot.
He's gonna strike out a lot.

We don't know what he is going to do over a full season. We don't even know what Dickerson is going to do over a full season. I'd bet even money that some of the things in this list, maybe even some of the good things, will not be true after a full season.


He's basically right handed Chris Dickerson. Each has their slight advantages over the other one, but they end up being similar players. People have been saying that for awhile now, and nothing has shown Stubbs to be a better player than Dickerson.

Platoon them in CF, and lead them off. Sometimes play Dickerson in LF and Stubbs in CF, and when you do that hit them 1-2. It's not hard.

Agree, especially about hitting them 1-2 (Dickerson-Stubbs) based on what we currently know. But I think after this season, there will be more separation between the two, and I don't have a clue which one will be better.

TRF
04-17-2010, 10:17 PM
Then how can you say one is better than the other?

Look at their AA and AAA numbers. thats how.

TheNext44
04-17-2010, 10:34 PM
Look at their AA and AAA numbers. thats how.

Or look at their numbers in the minors at the same age.

TRF
04-17-2010, 11:18 PM
Or look at their numbers in the minors at the same age.

Still making my point. Stubbs was rushed through AA with meh numbers. He needed more development as a player.

TheNext44
04-18-2010, 12:48 AM
Still making my point. Stubbs was rushed through AA with meh numbers. He needed more development as a player.

I agree with you on that point.

TRF
04-18-2010, 02:02 AM
I agree with you on that point.

Ok, then try this. Unless his approach changes, his ceiling, at best, is Chris Dickerson.

If he changes his approach, uses his frame as a power hitter, his ceiling is higher than Mike Cameron's. The tools, I have never denied. What I have said all along is his swing and approach do not produce power, not on anything considered a regular basis. If he keeps his current approach, he'll be a bust.

nate
04-18-2010, 09:23 AM
8 homers at the end of last year. That's the world where Stubbs provided power. That fact the he is in a slump THE FIRST TEN GAMES OF THE SEASON says much less about his power than what he did the in 6 times as many AB's at the end of last season, and what he did at the end of last season doesn't say much.

How do we know he wasn't on a "hot streak" at the end of last year and playing "normally" now?

Razor Shines
04-18-2010, 09:25 AM
How do we know he wasn't on a "hot streak" at the end of last year and playing "normally" now?

I think we definitely do not know and only more time will tell.