5 innings

[Matt700wlw]

That seems to be the trend with the Reds starters so far. Cueto, Homer, Harang...(he went longer in start 2 I believe)...

Arroyo and Leake have done the best so far.

If these guys can't get to the 6th inning and beyond, the bullpen will be shot by June.

[OnBaseMachine]

Cueto and Bailey both have great stuff yet they want to nibble around instead of going after hitters. They need to trust their stuff. This nibbling around is costing them a ton of pitches and wearing down the bullpen. It probably doesn't help knowing the offense is terrible and they have to be nearly perfect to have a chance at winning.

[Nasty_Boy]

Cordero was extremely "nibbley" in the 9th inning tonight! How do you got slider on 3-2 with the bases loaded against a right, but go fastball against the lefty? Is that on Cordero, Dusty, Price, or Hernandez? Terrible 9th inning pitch selection

[GAC]

I don't know if Cueto and Bailey's "nibbling" is intentional though. I agree with the Cowboy's assessment on Bailey last week that he's struggling to find his release point. And when I watch Cueto I think the kid is just raring back and throwing too hard. He doesn't trust his stuff.

They're both young, and I think what they are doing is correctable.

[GAC]

Cordero was extremely "nibbley" in the 9th inning tonight! How do you got slider on 3-2 with the bases loaded against a right, but go fastball against the lefty? Is that on Cordero, Dusty, Price, or Hernandez? Terrible 9th inning pitch selection

From what they said last night... Cordero didn't "have it" with his fastball last night, and thus his apprehension for wanting to throw it. Cordero has some nasty stuff, but he relies on the batter swinging on stuff out of the strikezone. And if they learn patience, and to lay off of it, that's why he walked three in that 9th inning. And when he finally had to throw a fastball - well - the rest is history.

[Always Red]

Marty and Brantley were talking on the radio about this in the first inning last night, when Cueto had 33 pitches. JB said that Greg Maddux's goal was 13 pitches every inning.

His approach was not to strike a hitter out, or get him to swing at pitches out of the zone, but to make him hit the ball either off his fists, or off the end of the bat. That's how you go deep into games.

Red's pitchers are either poorly coached or are not very smart; the approach for most of them seems to be to try to get the hitter to swing at pitches that aren't strikes. This will work in the minor leagues, and will work on occasion here in the bigs, but not routinely (except against Jay Bruce :D) since most MLB hitters have more discipline than to constantly swing at pitches they cannot hit.

A staff can support a guy like Cueto or Bailey, but when a starting staff has 3 guys who simply cannot throw strikes with any regularity, the bullpen will be very busy.

As for Cordero, I agree with GAC, it just wasn't his night last night for some reason.

[Razor Shines]

Marty and Brantley were talking on the radio about this in the first inning last night, when Cueto had 33 pitches. JB said that Greg Maddux's goal was 13 pitches every inning.

His approach was not to strike a hitter out, or get him to swing at pitches out of the zone, but to make him hit the ball either off his fists, or off the end of the bat. That's how you go deep into games.

Red's pitchers are either poorly coached or are not very smart; the approach for most of them seems to be to try to get the hitter to swing at pitches that aren't strikes. This will work in the minor leagues, and will work on occasion here in the bigs, but not routinely (except against Jay Bruce :D) since most MLB hitters have more discipline than to constantly swing at pitches they cannot hit.

A staff can support a guy like Cueto or Bailey, but when a starting staff has 3 guys who simply cannot throw strikes with any regularity, the bullpen will be very busy.

As for Cordero, I agree with GAC, it just wasn't his night last night for some reason.


It's a lot easier to do when you have stuff like Maddox.

[Always Red]

It's a lot easier to do when you have stuff like Maddox.

True, and that's also easy to say, but Maddux's stuff consisted largely of being able to hit his spot. Maddux would literally out think the hitter, and let the hitter to get himself out. Greg Maddux didn't have great stuff, he had a great idea of what he was doing out there. He had good stuff, not a power arm but great movement on all his pitches, and most importantly, maybe the best baseball brain of our generation.

Wade Boggs on facing Maddux: "It seems like he's inside your mind with you. When he knows you're not going to swing, he throws a straight one. He sees into the future. It's like he has a crystal ball hidden inside his glove."

I have heard over the years, from old timers, that Maddux's approach was very similar to Warren Spahn's approach, but that Maddux did it even better. I would have love to seen Spahn's approach to pitching.

Watch the catcher when Reds are on the mound- very seldom are they hitting the mitt.

Good pitching at this level is about location, changing speed and keeping the hitter off balance. There are too many guys on this team in love with their heat, thinking they can throw a 95mph fastball down the middle by a major league hitter. And to my eye, Cueto, Bailey and Harang are all throwing about 92-94mph fastballs down Broadway with very little movement or run on the ball.

Even Clemens, Randy Johnson and Nolan Ryan had excellent off speed stuff.

That's why I find a guy like Mike Leake very refreshing- he has a good idea of what pitching is really all about. Yet even he is struggling to find the plate.

I'd love to see Cueto work more on the change-up; he seems to have abandoned it, after using it to good effect last year at times.

[Razor Shines]

True, and that's also easy to say, but Maddux's stuff consisted largely of being able to hit his spot. Maddux would literally out think the hitter, and let the hitter to get himself out. Greg Maddux didn't have great stuff, he had a great idea of what he was doing out there. He had good stuff, not a power arm but great movement on all his pitches, and most importantly, maybe the best baseball brain of our generation.



.

I disagree about Maddox not having great stuff. Sure he didn't throw all that hard and he had pinpoint control, but he had several pitches that were absolutely filthy. I agree about all the brain stuff, but I don't think you can say he didn't have incredible stuff.

You don't win 4 straight Cy Youngs without having great stuff, IMO.

[Always Red]

I disagree about Maddox not having great stuff. Sure he didn't throw all that hard and he had pinpoint control, but he had several pitches that were absolutely filthy. I agree about all the brain stuff, but I don't think you can say he didn't have incredible stuff.

You don't win 4 straight Cy Youngs without having great stuff, IMO.

Maybe we're just talking about different aspects of "stuff"?

I don't want to argue over the definition of what "stuff" is, and I think that really I agree with you, that movement and location is "Stuff" just as much as a power arm like Chapman's.

Maddux was hit very hard his first two years in the game, until he gained his pinpoint control, and it wasn't until his 6th season in the league that he was averaging under 2.5 walks per game.

Here's a nice read on Maddux called "How in the World Did this guy win 347 games?"


Part of the legend concerns a man named Ralph Medar, a scout who'd retired and moved to Vegas to get a handle on his allergies. Medar started a series of invitation-only pickup games for the best prep players in the area. He coached Mike and Greg Maddux as well as Mike Morgan, who retired in 2002, after 22 seasons. That's a combined 60 years of big league pitching experience. Medar (who died before Greg graduated from high school) taught them all the value of movement over velocity, how to shield the ball behind their gloves to hide grips and how sometimes a 57-foot curveball is the best pitch in the world. "We bought into it," Greg says. "One of the first questions we used to ask was 'Is my ball sinking, or is it just running?' Now all they ask is, 'Did I throw 92 or 94?'"

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3336514

My point in bringing up Maddux at all (as did the Cowboy during the game) is that Red's pitcher need a better approach in order to pitch longer during games and not wear out the bullpen.

[traderumor]

Cueto and Bailey both have been all over the place. They are missing their target by the width of the plate consistently. Too many times, Hernandez will be set up on the outside corner, and Cueto and Bailey wing fastballs on the inside corner, and vice versa. I don't know what is going on, but the command of the starters has been brutal to watch.

The teams are running up their pitch counts so quickly because they are patiently waiting for the fat pitch that is inevitable after the pitcher, whomever it happens to be out there right now, has to hum a number one right down the middle after falling behind in the count. Bryan Price certainly has some major issues to address with this staff right now--from gameplan, to nibbling, to command...well, geesh, I just named every facet of pitching except properly warming up. Maybe they're doing that right, I dunno.

[SMcGavin]

A staff can support a guy like Cueto or Bailey, but when a starting staff has 3 guys who simply cannot throw strikes with any regularity, the bullpen will be very busy.


That's a good point, one that I hadn't really thought about. If they do make a change (not that it's going to happen soon), I wonder if this reasoning will affect the Maloney vs Wood decision? Maloney is a big durable dude who throws more strikes than just about anyone, could help the bullpen out.

[WVRedsFan]

I don't know if Cueto and Bailey's "nibbling" is intentional though. I agree with the Cowboy's assessment on Bailey last week that he's struggling to find his release point. And when I watch Cueto I think the kid is just raring back and throwing too hard. He doesn't trust his stuff.

They're both young, and I think what they are doing is correctable.

Totally agree. The big question is whether or not Price can correct this. We haven't heard much from him, so I don't know. Maybe they should bring Soto in to work with Cueto and kick Homer in the pants?

[GAC]

Cueto and Bailey both have been all over the place. They are missing their target by the width of the plate consistently.

Which tells me it's mainly mechanics.

[HokieRed]

The Maddux comparison is very relevant, IMO. Maddux's greatest strength was very simple: ability to locate his fastball, which had great movement and was his outpitch. Inability to locate the fastball consistently is what undoes Bailey and Cueto--and it seems to me like Harang has also lost either the confidence or the ability to locate his inside. (So that if he goes outside all the time, it's no problem to hit that flat little slider he's been throwing 82 MPH lately)

[Falls City Beer]

Guess this staff is putting the lie to the "It's Pole's fault" stuff. Typical rudderless, keep-your-fingers-crossed for control Reds' pitching staff. I do think there's a clear connection between stuff, confidence, and location: Bailey has never had control, so that's not surprising; Cueto had excellent control in the minors, but looks very sloppy up here; Harang used to have great control at the MLB level, but that's largely vanished--probably mental more than physical; Leake has had horrid control after good control prior. I suspect it's mostly fear and frustration, combined with the inability to retire guys in the zone. In other words, it's either minor league stuff meeting major league bats, or it's a loss of confidence. Some of it might be mechanical, but probably not a lot.