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fearofpopvol1
04-18-2010, 08:51 PM
As we all know, this is Dusty's last year under contract with the Reds. His last 2 years did not go overly well, at least in terms of wins/losses and we all know that's how a manager is evaluated.

So, what do you think will happen with Dusty? I know a lot of that hinges on what happens over the course of the season, but if you had to guess?

Redhook
04-18-2010, 08:52 PM
No matter what happens with the team this year, I hope he's gone. He's not a good manager for this team.

Redsfan320
04-18-2010, 08:58 PM
I think he'll be extended at the end of the season no matter what, really; although he should be gone (almost no matter what). He and Walt seem to be on pretty good terms.

320

Joseph
04-18-2010, 09:01 PM
Dusty is a tremendous personnel manager. Anyone who faults that is just not reading the tea leaves. He also is not a very good in game manager.

I do not think he 'wrecked' the arms of young pitchers as has been attributed to him though. As stated though, managers are ultimately judged on wins and losses and he has not really done anything any better than Narron, Miley, Boone, etal.

I don't know if they'll go the route of hiring another name or if it'll be a Rick Sweet type. Time will tell.

Slyder
04-18-2010, 09:12 PM
No matter what happens with the team this year, I hope he's gone. He's not a good manager for this team.

I've said it since we started shifting away from Griffey/Dunn era. Duhhhsty needs vets, he's out of his element with a team like we have, he is the absolute worst fit for a team with a lot of younger players and if you seen the results from guys like Bruce it shows. Duhhhsty to be effective needs to have guys who know how to balance what Duhhhsty says with what they normally do.

KronoRed
04-18-2010, 09:16 PM
The Reds will get hot and he'll get a new deal, stay calm everyone.

Ron Madden
04-18-2010, 09:21 PM
I don't think he should've been hired in the first place.

Dusty wouldn't have won with the Giants without Bonds. He wouldn't have won with the Cubs without Sosa. I don't think he'll ever win here.

Always Red
04-18-2010, 09:40 PM
This continues and The Duster will be gone.

They can't fire 25 guys, and Dusty wasn't Walt's choice.

They turn it around, and Dusty stays.

Unfair, but such is the life of a major league manager in 2010.

HokieRed
04-18-2010, 09:46 PM
The team is bad, really bad, and somebody has to be held responsible. Jacoby will be first, then Dusty. I see him gone by July 15.

redsmetz
04-18-2010, 09:56 PM
The team is bad, really bad, and somebody has to be held responsible. Jacoby will be first, then Dusty. I see him gone by July 15.

I don't think this team is as bad as the last five games would lead one to believe. Clearly others would disagree. That said, I do have to wonder how Jacoby will fare if the hitting doesn't come around. I actually thought about starting a thread about that. At what point does the organization decide that he's not being effective as a batting coach. Guys aren't coming to the plate and have good AB's very often.

Regarding Baker, if the season plays out like this, it's a good possibility he'll be gone. But I don't think this club is going to play like this all of the time. But it's time to kick it into gear. Personally, I'm one of the few folks on RZ who actually likes Dusty (or so it seems). He says occasional things that are just goofy, but I think he's good for this club. And I don't buy the "vet love" myth that most do and I concur with whoever it was who said he's not to blame for the pitchers he's alleged ruined.

I really don't want to go back to the new manager thing. I'm ready for us to have someone who is around a good long time with a winning club. I think Baker can do that, but we have to get over this hump.

Ron Madden
04-18-2010, 10:04 PM
I don't think this team is as bad as the last five games would lead one to believe. Clearly others would disagree. That said, I do have to wonder how Jacoby will fare if the hitting doesn't come around. I actually thought about starting a thread about that. At what point does the organization decide that he's not being effective as a batting coach. Guys aren't coming to the plate and have good AB's very often.

Regarding Baker, if the season plays out like this, it's a good possibility he'll be gone. But I don't think this club is going to play like this all of the time. But it's time to kick it into gear. (or so it Personally, I'm one of the few folks on RZ who actually likes Dusty seems). He says occasional things that are just goofy, but I think he's good for this club. And I don't buy the "vet love" myth that most do and I concur with whoever it was who said he's not to blame for the pitchers he's alleged ruined.

I really don't want to go back to the new manager thing. I'm ready for us to have someone who is around a good long time with a winning club. I think Baker can do that, but we have to get over this hump.

I have a feeling you will like the next Manager just fine too.

Ghosts of 1990
04-18-2010, 10:19 PM
I don't think there's anyway he's fired before the season ends. They'll treat him with class as they did Griffey Jr. when he was struggling. As for the other options there's too many games left to really know but I predict we'll now finish below expectations again and we'll find a new younger talent with maybe less MLB experience and a fresh start in 2011

HokieRed
04-18-2010, 10:19 PM
This continues and The Duster will be gone.

They can't fire 25 guys, and Dusty wasn't Walt's choice.

They turn it around, and Dusty stays.

Unfair, but such is the life of a major league manager in 2010.


There's nothing unfair about this. Let's put it this way: what have Jacoby or Dusty accomplished that would make the case for their staying?

marcshoe
04-18-2010, 10:30 PM
There's nothing unfair about this. Let's put it this way: what have Jacoby or Dusty accomplished that would make the case for their staying?
You may have hit on the biggest negative--linking Dusty and Jacoby, since Dusty may be largely responsible for the hitters' approach. I'm personally still hoping for his success, and it's still ridiculously early in the season, but I fully expect Walt to keep an eye on this.

Ghosts of 1990
04-18-2010, 10:42 PM
I don't think this team is as bad as the last five games would lead one to believe. Clearly others would disagree. That said, I do have to wonder how Jacoby will fare if the hitting doesn't come around. I actually thought about starting a thread about that. At what point does the organization decide that he's not being effective as a batting coach. Guys aren't coming to the plate and have good AB's very often.

Regarding Baker, if the season plays out like this, it's a good possibility he'll be gone. But I don't think this club is going to play like this all of the time. But it's time to kick it into gear. Personally, I'm one of the few folks on RZ who actually likes Dusty (or so it seems). He says occasional things that are just goofy, but I think he's good for this club. And I don't buy the "vet love" myth that most do and I concur with whoever it was who said he's not to blame for the pitchers he's alleged ruined.

I really don't want to go back to the new manager thing. I'm ready for us to have someone who is around a good long time with a winning club. I think Baker can do that, but we have to get over this hump.

Take it FWIW... I have a friend who was a writer for the Cubs when Dusty was there and several people close to dusty said it was true, that Dusty didn't favor young players and Dusty had told them that.

corkedbat
04-18-2010, 10:46 PM
Just my WAG, but I think this team continues to struggle adn he's replaced between Memorial Day and the trade deadline by Rick Sweet as an interim.

WVRedsFan
04-18-2010, 11:13 PM
That would be a horrible mistake, IMHO. Not firing Dusty, but naming Sweet manager. I don't see it happening. Walt and Bob respect Dusty, so if he goes, he'll go at the end of the season if the club continues to flounder. Jacoby and Price might be in trouble, though. When Aaron Harang stinks up the show and the youngsters don't produce (remember how Homer pitched at the end of the season and Cueto is simply not "getting it"), blaming Price might be overkill. Jacoby probably is gone. My guess is they'll blame these guys instead of Dusty. If the Reds have a winning record, Dusty is safe.

Eric_the_Red
04-18-2010, 11:21 PM
There is a saying, "Be careful what you wish for- you just may get it."

westofyou
04-18-2010, 11:30 PM
There is a saying, "Be careful what you wish for- you just may get it."

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bpv/images/a/a3/Mileydave.jpg

durl
04-18-2010, 11:45 PM
I seem to recall that the Reds have been a preseason "sleeper" pick for the Division a couple of times over the past few years. Young talent, loads of potential, an improving pitching staff...yet here we are again wondering if this team will ever finish .500. My impression is that, if the Reds can't capitalize on all this potential yet again, they'll eventually start looking at the manager as a weak link in the chain (or the scapegoat).

The players love Dusty and that's awesome...I want players to like their manager. But sometimes the guy you like isn't the best one to get the job done. You're measured in wins and postseason appearances, and they don't hand out a Mr. Congeniality prize. You want the manager to stick around? Then start winning under him and show that he's good at his job.

I can't recall being so eager to let a manager go. I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I have a bad feeling that this slide will continue. Dusty will be sent packing before the Break. And we'll start all over again...

WVRedsFan
04-18-2010, 11:47 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/bpv/images/a/a3/Mileydave.jpg

That's sobering. And yet many still lust to give Miley another chance. He was just over his head and it showed.

WVPacman
04-19-2010, 12:00 AM
Call me crazy but im more worried about our hitting coach and pitching coach more than Dusty.Like another poster said last year the ofense was alot better exspecially at the end of the season.Same with the pitchers they were outstanding most of the season but exspecially at the end of the season.I would fire Jacoby and Price easly before I would Dusty AT THIS POINT.Bring in a qualify batting coach and pitching coach then if things still does'nt chance then fire Dusty.

Has Bench ever said he would like to be a batting coach? I would love to see him as our batting coach and is Lee Mazzone still retired? b/c I think he would be another great fit here in Cincy.

TheNext44
04-19-2010, 12:24 AM
I've made this prediction before and I'm sticking to it.

The Reds will struggle to stay near .500 all season, but end on another up swing and finish at or a hair above .500. Baker will be renewed for two more years based on the strong close.

Not saying I wish it would happen, just that I think it will.

Tom Servo
04-19-2010, 12:33 AM
I think this is his last year barring a Reds winning season. I think he'll either resign (not re-sign) as manager or the Reds just won't bring him back.

WebScorpion
04-19-2010, 12:53 AM
Can't Dusty talk Hank Aaron into being our hitting coach?? THAT I'd like to see! :thumbup: At the moment, I really don't think Dusty's fate matters. These kids gotta learn to make adjustments. On a good note, these guys have caused me to go through my beer supply pretty quickly and I picked up a very nice Full Sail LTD Lager today. :drink: If not for their woes, I wouldn't have even been looking for beer. :D

Mario-Rijo
04-19-2010, 01:04 AM
I voted before I read and my opinion has changed for that reason. I originally voted mid-season but in retrospect Jacoby probably will be the mid-season fall boy and Bob will allow Dusty to finish the season and then see who is available. Jacoby may or may not be the problem it's hard to tell what with no one ever having come out in support of him and no one ever peeping anything about him at all. The guy is an enigma. That said I don't think Dusty would have hung on to him last offseason if he didn't share his philosophy to some extent. If not though it's clear who the Reds players are listening to at the plate. Yeah friends that is Dustyball right there. With the exception of Dickerson everybody is basically playing offense the Baker way. That isn't a good thing for a hitting coach unless again he agrees in which case they both should eventually take the fall for the lack of production in the offense. Heck they even have Votto playing way too aggressive.

The pitching hasn't been up to par but I think most of that will work itself out eventually. Brian Price shouldn't be canned whatsoever.

At the end of the season Rick Sweet should be given some consideration he has had a many of these players under him so I doubt many would have a problem respecting him. Just wonder how Price might feel about it all. Who was it he coached under in Arizona, Bob Melvin was it? Is he managing anywhere and what is he like? I can see Price throwing his name out there if he is unemployed.

Spring~Fields
04-19-2010, 02:54 AM
Though ambiguity and what if questions makes the crystal ball very, very fuzzy right now.

I am going to go by what I have seen them reportedly say in the media, and what I have seen them do with experienced players while touting youth and young to the fans, while brining in more if even declining experienced players. Average age of the team is 29, not the young perception from marketing spin of 23 - 24.

I was torn between the two choices of extension because Walt Jocketty I believe has said that he likes to take care of that during the off-season vs. the old vote of confidence extension that might get Mr. Baker extended during the season.

I think that they will play the continuity card, and extend Mr. Baker.

Rational - actually citing some of the very things that we have complained about. Certain pitcher issues, inconsistent young/old/decline/injury. Payroll flexibility hindrances. Younger players under performance. Low priced experienced veterans under performance. Issues in a like or similar manner, used to rationalize, generalize and justify.

Unless Mr. Jocketty has a manager in mind in a manner or vain like Castellini did when bringing in Jocketty, with an eye on replacing Krivsky with him. Then they would not extend Baker, again, for some of the very same reasons that we complain often about. They can spin whichever position that they want to take to extend or terminate. The crystal ball is coming in a bit fuzzy right now. .

Possible plan to enhance Mr. Baker’s results
Payroll flex from one or more of the expensive veteran pitchers. Money, used to replace them. Young prospects that you hear such glowing terms about, trade bait. For what? For experienced players that they are comfortable with. They are not going to go with five young potentially inconsistent starters, who would? They are not going to live with that outfield mess that they have now, and ss, they will be looking for, and it won’t be some rookie.

Can the Reds afford to appease what it takes for Mr. Baker philosophy to win, no. He needs the level of production that he had in San Fran and Chicago, even if Bonds and Sosa did have credibility issues.
It might be said that he had much better pitching and hitters in both places, that he inherited.

Can the Reds afford to appease what it takes for Mr. Baker to win ? not with the deep pockets of the competition out there for player resources. The Reds will get the hand me downs as they have.

If you were manager, wouldn’t you want the majority of your players to be established productive experienced players, so that you have more of a sure thing to win now? Of course. So what’s the problem, the Reds can’t afford them, availability and willingness to sign in with Cincinnati over more attractive championship potential and greater contract and money.

Though you never know for sure, that center field leads off, shortstop bats second, and Phillips batting cleanup, while using low on base percentage players over and over at the top of the order might be the end of his stay in Redsland. Plus it is questionable if he has had any success with his starting pitching. Jocketty will take note of that.

REDblooded
04-19-2010, 03:10 AM
Average age is definitely getting pushed up by a few guys. When people talk about the Reds being a young team, it's because the core group is very young.

All of the following are doubtful to be back next season:

Arroyo - 33
Harang - 31
Lincoln - 35
Rhodes - 40
Hernandez - 33
Cabrera - 35
Cairo - 35

That would leave the following group of possible 30+'s on the roster next season (with next seasons age)

Cordero - 35
Hanigan - 30
Rolen - 36
Gomes/Nix - 30

Team age is really being inflated by just a few members.



Bailey 23, Cueto 24, Leake 22, Maloney 26, Wood 23, Chapman 22, Volquez 26
Herrera 25, Masset 27, Ondrusek 25, Owings 27
Phillips 28, Votto 26
Bruce 23, Stubbs 25

Spring~Fields
04-19-2010, 03:15 AM
Average age is definitely getting pushed up by a few guys. When people talk about the Reds being a young team, it's because the core group is very young.



http://espn.go.com/mlb/teams/roster?team=cin&sort=age&type=active

They are not going to go with a bunch of inexperienced younger players. That is not their pattern and not how either of them made their reputations in the business.

The position players average age is 29.

REDblooded
04-19-2010, 03:28 AM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/teams/roster?team=cin&sort=age&type=active

They are not going to go with a bunch of inexperienced younger players. That is not their pattern and not how either of them made their reputations in the business.

The position players average age is 29.

But again, that's being inflated by OCab and Rolen...

The main thought though is that the core is young... Look at your projected pool of starting pitchers for next season. Only one would be older than 25. The majority of your pen is very young. Your top 3 bats are all 28 or under.

I'm not saying I disagree with you on the whole, but I don't feel like this is being falsely portrayed as a young team.

If you take the starting 8, the bullpen, and the rotation (19 players):

4 of your 8 hitters (Bruce, Dickerson, Stubbs, Votto) have under 3 full years of experience and only Dickerson is older than 26
4 of your top 6 arms in the pen are 27 or younger, and
3 of your current 5 starters are 24 or younger

The foundation of your team is definitely a young group of players either in age or experience. Just using the 25 man roster gives you inflated numbers due to sample size and including guys like Rhodes, Rolen, Cabrera...

Now, I DO have to agree that when guys like Rhodes and Lincoln are gone that they will probably be replaced with other old vets... That definitely would be consistent with Walt's past.

mth123
04-19-2010, 03:55 AM
I voted finishes the season and not renewed but my real choice wasn't in this poll. Finishes the season and runs away as far and as fast as he can. I think both he and Walt will leave on their own after the season.

GAC
04-19-2010, 05:11 AM
Well.... someone has to take the blame if this "train" continues on it's present course throughout the season AND IT AIN'T GONNA BE ME! :D

If this team finishes below .500 again this year then Dusty will be gone.

Three contracts (two bigguns) are in their last year... and all three will be gone. Guess who they are? That's a nice chunk of change.

membengal
04-19-2010, 10:14 AM
I have the same comment for this thread that I did in the Jacoby thread. I would not cry if Dusty left, and I would not cry if he stayed. Being realistic, how many wins can the best manager in the world wring out of this collection of talent?

The Reds' issues in terms of wins and losses go far beyond Dusty. If he has to be a fall guy, I get that. Managers are hired to be fired. But I sure don't see the trajectory of this team magically changing like it did in Colorado last year if Dusty is let go in the near future.

This team still has talent issues. It simply does not have enough.

Spring~Fields
04-19-2010, 11:58 AM
Being realistic, how many wins can the best manager in the world wring out of this collection of talent?

The Reds' issues in terms of wins and losses go far beyond Dusty.

This team still has talent issues. It simply does not have enough.


I don't think many would disagree with your valid points here.

Perhaps the poll should be on Walt Jocketty or Bob Castellini since the issues and solutions to those issues flows from them.

I am probably wrong, but, sometimes I wonder, if Castellini and his financing partners, Lindner, Reich and Strike along with Walt Jocketty provided several all-star level players, why would they need to pay top dollar for a big name manager like Mr. Baker? When cheaper choices might be able to win as many games.

Spring~Fields
04-19-2010, 12:04 PM
But again, that's being inflated by OCab and Rolen...



Supports the point that they choose those experienced players.

I don't consider minor league players as being the 25 players, playing for the major league team, most minor league players never make it for a sustained period of time.

Don't most of the small market teams have their filler and fodder due to financial constraints?

This is below is what I see when I look past the marketing hype.



[code]
2010
26 Players, Range 22 - 40 av'g age 29.1
18 players 26 - 40
15 players 28 - 40
13 players 29 - 40
8 players 22 - 25
5 pitchers 22 - 25
5 players 22 - 24
3 pitchers 22 - 24
13 position 23 - 36
10 position 27 - 36
3 position 23 - 25, 1 sent to minors
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2010.shtml

2009
46 Players, Range 22 - 39 av'g age 27.7
34 players 26 - 39
20 players 28 - 39
15 players 30 - 39
7 players 22 - 24
4 pitchers 22 - 24
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2009.shtml

2008
48 Players, Range 21 - 40 av'g age 28.4
32 players 26 - 40
26 players 28 - 40
19 players 30 - 40
8 players 21 - 24
5 pitchers 21 - 24
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2008.shtml

TRF
04-19-2010, 12:11 PM
Who out there looks to be available? Rick Sweet? Davey ain't coming back. Bobby V?

You fire a guy, you better have his replacement in mind. And you just hired a new pitching coach. You don't do that if you plan to ax the manager. I think he gets extended.

bucksfan2
04-19-2010, 12:29 PM
Its Dusty's fault that 4/5 of the pitching staff isn't pitching up to their ability. Its Dusty's fault that BP is regressing as an offensive player. Its Dusty's fault that the flu bug has knocked out the Reds 2 best players for the better part of 3-4 games. Its Dusty's fault that their close had his worst game of his career as a Red the other night.

I don't quite get all the Dusty hate. And some things that are said are just plain wrong (his preference over vets has been disproven time and time again as the Reds manager but still held against him). That said I think Bob may have an itchy trigger finger if things continue to go wrong. He wants to win and probably felt he could contend this season. I don't think the Reds would look to Sweet. There is a good thing going in AAA right now and they don't need to screw it up. I think Barry Larkin is the next Reds manager, thats if he wants the job.

Spring~Fields
04-19-2010, 12:30 PM
Who out there looks to be available? Rick Sweet? Davey ain't coming back. Bobby V?

You fire a guy, you better have his replacement in mind. And you just hired a new pitching coach. You don't do that if you plan to ax the manager. I think he gets extended.

I was thinking that the new pitching coach might be used to tell Mr. Jocketty something.

After taking the time to fire the old one, thinking that, that might be the probem. Jocketty hires what he believes is the best answer in pitching coaches. If he sees that new pitching coach not being the answer as anticipated, he might take a harder look at his manager and other coaches, he might conclude that the old pitching coach wasn't his only question mark after all.

Ghosts of 1990
04-19-2010, 12:39 PM
I don't quite get all the Dusty hate. And some things that are said are just plain wrong (his preference over vets has been disproven time and time again as the Reds manager but still held against him).

I don't know, it wasn't that long ago that he played Corey Patterson over a lot of younger talented guys that could have been getting those same innings and at-bats; and only by organization mandate was Patterson sent down. Same thing last year with Taveras.

How about Hatteberg over Votto in 2008?

And that's just in this city. His history with young players elsewhere is a long resume of botched instances.

I believe my sources, and I believe what I've seen. Dusty stays with the veteran and doesn't handle younger players real well. He does goofy things with them. He provides them with few chances to succeed and little protection in the lineup.

I like Dusty Baker as a person a lot. I think his guys that play for him do as well. But at some point you have to wonder if he's cut out for a particular situation.

Spring~Fields
04-19-2010, 12:58 PM
I don't know, it wasn't that long ago that he played Corey Patterson over a lot of younger talented guys that could have been getting those same innings and at-bats; and only by organization mandate was Patterson sent down. Same thing last year with Taveras.

How about Hatteberg over Votto in 2008?

And that's just in this city. His history with young players elsewhere is a long resume of botched instances.

I believe my sources, and I believe what I've seen. Dusty stays with the veteran and doesn't handle younger players real well. He does goofy things with them. He provides them with few chances to succeed and little protection in the lineup.

I like Dusty Baker as a person a lot. I think his guys that play for him do as well. But at some point you have to wonder if he's cut out for a particular situation.

How could you forget Bako the catcher? :)

TheNext44
04-19-2010, 01:03 PM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/teams/roster?team=cin&sort=age&type=active

They are not going to go with That is not their pattern and not how either of them made their reputations in the business.

The position players average age is 29.

You are correct, the Reds are not a young team, but they shouldn't be at this point.

No team goes with "a bunch of inexperienced younger players" unless they are at the beginning of a complete rebuilding mode. The Reds are midway through their rebuilding mode, which means they should be getting older and more experienced. Which your well researched stats show.

And 29 is just about where they should be. The Marlins, a team that is supposed to be the ultimate "young" team, has an average age of 28.

The youth that they are marketing is there. They have 5 players who are easily part of the top ten most important players on this team that are between 22-25, (Bruce, Stubbs, Cueto, Bailey and Leake) and one more who is 26 (Votto). That is very rare, and a sign of an organization that values youth.

bucksfan2
04-19-2010, 01:46 PM
I don't know, it wasn't that long ago that he played Corey Patterson over a lot of younger talented guys that could have been getting those same innings and at-bats; and only by organization mandate was Patterson sent down. Same thing last year with Taveras.

Patterson was moved off CF and sent down to the minors only to be brought back up because if injuries. Taveras got his fair share of playing time but then was moved to the bench when Stubbs came up. The only guy you can throw into the mix who should have gotten PT was Dickerson, but the Reds gave him his chance to start the season in 09 as the starting LF and he had an awful start.


How about Hatteberg over Votto in 2008?

Hatteberg started the first two games of the season and that was pretty much it. I don't see a problem with making a young player earn it. He didn't hesitate to move Hatteberg to the bench and then to DFA him with Votto didn't relinquish the job. Really a pretty poor example of Dusty favoring a vet.


I believe my sources, and I believe what I've seen. Dusty stays with the veteran and doesn't handle younger players real well. He does goofy things with them. He provides them with few chances to succeed and little protection in the lineup.

I like Dusty Baker as a person a lot. I think his guys that play for him do as well. But at some point you have to wonder if he's cut out for a particular situation.

Yea Bruce, Bailey, Cueto, Volquez, Massett, etc. all have been given their fair share of a leach when it comes to playing. Many were calling for Dusty to bench Bruce but he kept running him out there. Its pretty much been proven incorrect but people keep bringing it up.

westofyou
04-19-2010, 02:02 PM
Patterson was moved off CF and sent down to the minors only to be brought back up because if injuries. Taveras got his fair share of playing time but then was moved to the bench when Stubbs came up. The only guy you can throw into the mix who should have gotten PT was Dickerson, but the Reds gave him his chance to start the season in 09 as the starting LF and he had an awful start.



Hatteberg started the first two games of the season and that was pretty much it. I don't see a problem with making a young player earn it. He didn't hesitate to move Hatteberg to the bench and then to DFA him with Votto didn't relinquish the job. Really a pretty poor example of Dusty favoring a vet.



Yea Bruce, Bailey, Cueto, Volquez, Massett, etc. all have been given their fair share of a leach when it comes to playing. Many were calling for Dusty to bench Bruce but he kept running him out there. Its pretty much been proven incorrect but people keep bringing it up.

Dusty chose many young guys for key positons In SF, Manwaring, Lewis, Bernard, Mueller, Aurilia, Clayton. meanwhile guys like Snow, Bonds, Kent were hardly oldsters.

The Dusty myths makers tend to believe that Dusty only managed the Cubs prior to coming to the Reds, if one looks at his whole career you'll see that a lot of the myths are just myths.

_Sir_Charles_
04-19-2010, 02:11 PM
Considering the current slumping of LOTS of hitters, and the early struggles of LOTS of the pitchers...there is NO manager out there that will make ANY noticeable difference. While I'm not a fan of his lineups, it's really the only real complaint I have against Dusty. The improvement of this team hinges on players playing like they're capable of, not in game moves the manager makes. Yes, the manager can put players in positions to be successful, but it's up to the players to execute. Right now, they're not. But patience...and they will.

I think this team will rebound and be solid for most of the year. And I also think Dusty will get an extension AFTER the season. If we're in contention like I think we'll be...Walt won't want to be doing contract negotiations during a pennant chase. Neither will Dusty.

marcshoe
04-19-2010, 04:30 PM
Who out there looks to be available? Rick Sweet? Davey ain't coming back. Bobby V?

You fire a guy, you better have his replacement in mind. And you just hired a new pitching coach. You don't do that if you plan to ax the manager. I think he gets extended.

Scott Rolen? I could see him retiring as an active player because of his back and taking the manager job.

HokieRed
04-19-2010, 04:33 PM
Scott Rolen? I could see him retiring as an active player because of his back and taking the manager job.

I've thought Rolen would be the manager eventually from the day the trade was made.

TheNext44
04-19-2010, 05:25 PM
Scott Rolen? I could see him retiring as an active player because of his back and taking the manager job.

Or Player/Manager in 2011?

cincrazy
04-19-2010, 05:30 PM
I don't think he should've been hired in the first place.

Dusty wouldn't have won with the Giants without Bonds. He wouldn't have won with the Cubs without Sosa. I don't think he'll ever win here.

Well, I'm not a Dusty fan, but I think it's unfair to say he wouldn't have won with Bonds or Sosa. The same can be said of almost any manager. Torre doesn't win without Jeter and Rivera (he was not good in his previous stops) Cox doesn't win without that rotation, LaRussa doesn't win without Big Mac or Pujols... we could go all day with that discussion.

MrCinatit
04-19-2010, 05:44 PM
His contract is not renewed. After a "long extensive search", they will hire someone predictable, i.e. a cheap guy who has never managed before or has little managing experience. That guy won't even see the end of the 2012 season (if we all survive). His temporary replacement will be let go at the end of the 2012 season. That replacement will be fired midway through the 2014 season. His replacement will be hired full time at the end of the 2014 season, then fired midway through the 2016 season...
and so on.
And so on.
And so on.

RedsManRick
04-19-2010, 05:51 PM
I don't think Dusty has ever shown a bias to old players simply based on their age. Rather, he's big on giving players playing time based on what he feels they've earned. We've heard this all spring. The problem in my mind is that he doesn't use a set standard on what it takes to earn his confidence -- a standard which varies based on how much he likes your skill set.

Perhaps the bigger driver is his insistence on fielding a particular type of team, one that that fits a preconceived, idealized notion of what a "good" team looks like. Rather than simply putting his 8 most productive guys on the field, he works from the top down. If you, as a player, disrupt that vision too much, good luck.

For example, he doesn't know what to do with Hanigan because, in his world, catchers are slow-footed veteran staff managers who can drive in some runs at the bottom of the order. He doesn't know what to do with Dickerson b/c CF are supposed to be scrappy high-contact guys who pressure defenses; LF, by contrast, are big mashing RBI guys. He doesn't know what to do with Janish b/c SS are supposed to be good "bat control" guys. Take those roles away and he feels like the balance of the team is off and that it won't work.

westofyou
04-19-2010, 06:09 PM
Or Player/Manager in 2011?

Funny thing is the last player manager before Pete will probably get into the HOF for his managerial skill, whereas the majority of player managers that get into the HOF generally got their for their playing ability, not their managerial skill.

Benihana
04-19-2010, 06:50 PM
Dusty will be gone by the ASB if the Reds are more than 10 games below .500.

Captain Hook
04-19-2010, 07:55 PM
His contract is not renewed. After a "long extensive search", they will hire someone predictable, i.e. a cheap guy who has never managed before or has little managing experience. That guy won't even see the end of the 2012 season (if we all survive). His temporary replacement will be let go at the end of the 2012 season. That replacement will be fired midway through the 2014 season. His replacement will be hired full time at the end of the 2014 season, then fired midway through the 2016 season...
and so on.
And so on.
And so on.

There's a good chance your right but the team could've found cheaper coaches then Dusty or Price or even a GM that would probably cost less then Jockety(even though I'm not sure what Walt makes).It seems to me that the team is only cheap when it comes to FA players but are willing to spend some money on coaches and front office personal.

I would hope that Dusty is gone by the AS break if the team is even 1 game under .500.Two straight loosing season should absolutely require a good first half.No excuses at this point.Having a loosing record at the AS break wouldn't mean the end of the season for the team but I'd say it would be the end for Baker.Give someone else a chance at that point to really get the team going.

mth123
04-19-2010, 08:32 PM
Rolen isn't the guy. If Dusty does go, Corky Miller should be considered.

Raisor
04-19-2010, 08:35 PM
I'm resigned to the fact that Dusty will be extended sometime during the season.

redsmetz
04-19-2010, 09:47 PM
There's a good chance your right but the team could've found cheaper coaches then Dusty or Price or even a GM that would probably cost less then Jockety(even though I'm not sure what Walt makes).It seems to me that the team is only cheap when it comes to FA players but are willing to spend some money on coaches and front office personal.

I would hope that Dusty is gone by the AS break if the team is even 1 game under .500.Two straight loosing season should absolutely require a good first half.No excuses at this point.Having a loosing record at the AS break wouldn't mean the end of the season for the team but I'd say it would be the end for Baker.Give someone else a chance at that point to really get the team going.

And we'll begin the endless merry-go-round all over again. Oh joy!

Captain Hook
04-19-2010, 10:58 PM
And we'll begin the endless merry-go-round all over again. Oh joy!

Avoiding that is about the only decent reason not to fire Baker if the team is failing as far into the season as July.

It didn't stop the Rockies from doing it last year or the Astros a few years ago.I think things worked out well for those teams.

Degenerate39
04-19-2010, 10:59 PM
I think he'll finish out the season but that's the last we'll see of Dusty

westofyou
04-19-2010, 11:49 PM
Avoiding that is about the only decent reason not to fire Baker if the team is failing as far into the season as July.

It didn't stop the Rockies from doing it last year or the Astros a few years ago.I think things worked out well for those teams.

Using that logic I'll point out that it sure worked great when the Reds dumped Miley and when they dumped Narron

Captain Hook
04-20-2010, 02:03 AM
Using that logic I'll point out that it sure worked great when the Reds dumped Miley and when they dumped Narron

I get what you guys are saying.The Reds were in what seemed like an endless cycle of hiring coaches that worked for peanuts and had little chance of succeeding considering their coaching abilities and mostly their personal.No one wants to go threw that again myself included.

All I'm saying is that if it gets to the point that we've seen 2 and a 1/2 years of Baker coaching the team with little improvement over what the before mentioned skippers achieved, he should share their fate.Using the excuse that because the Reds have hired bad managers or managers that have failed in the past doesn't make any sense to me.I'd rather hear about what people think Baker can still bring to the table if the team appears to be on their way to another subpar season once we reach July.Why should he keep his job opposed to why we shouldn't hire another coach.

I'm not here bashing Baker although I admit that I would like to see him move on sooner then later.I also admit that I have felt that way for some time now but I'm willing to say that he still deserves a little time with this team.I know Dusty can't go out there and pitch or hit home runs or do any of the things that directly contribute to wins but IMO it's time that he starts motivating the guys that play for him to do those things or else.

Ron Madden
04-20-2010, 02:52 AM
I'm resigned to the fact that Dusty will be extended sometime during the season.

That would be par for the course wouldn't it?

Ron Madden
04-20-2010, 02:55 AM
Well, I'm not a Dusty fan, but I think it's unfair to say he wouldn't have won with Bonds or Sosa. The same can be said of almost any manager. Torre doesn't win without Jeter and Rivera (he was not good in his previous stops) Cox doesn't win without that rotation, LaRussa doesn't win without Big Mac or Pujols... we could go all day with that discussion.

That's my point Dusty has never had a team without a Bonds or Sosa to carry the load.

redsmetz
04-20-2010, 12:09 PM
That would be par for the course wouldn't it?

Actually, extending Baker would not be par for the course. Since Sparky, we've only had two managers who have lasted longer than three season; John McNamera and Pete Rose. McNamera was fired during his 4th season and we all know why Rose left. That's it. Not Piniella or Johnson (both three seasons - "thanks Marge"). So extending Baker would be out of the ordinary given this clubs history with fourteen managers in just over 30 seasons.

Ron Madden
04-20-2010, 12:13 PM
It would be another bad decision in a long line of bad decisions.

par for the course.

bucksfan2
04-20-2010, 12:17 PM
That's my point Dusty has never had a team without a Bonds or Sosa to carry the load.

I am curious as to who the managers are who have won with less than stellar players.

Ron Madden
04-20-2010, 12:22 PM
I am curious as to who the managers are who have won with less than stellar players.

Never said any Manager ever won without talented players.

Just look at the numbers put up by Bonds and Sosa while playing for Baker.

Steroids or not they had plenty to do with Baker's winning record.

SunDeck
04-20-2010, 12:28 PM
Anybody have stats on how well teams have done after firing a manager in mid season? My guess would be that it doesn't help much.

westofyou
04-20-2010, 12:28 PM
Anybody have stats on how well teams have done after firing a manager in mid season? My guess would be that it doesn't help much.

More dead cat bounces than pennant runs.

bucksfan2
04-20-2010, 12:32 PM
Never said any Manager ever won without talented players.

Just look at the numbers put up by Bonds and Sosa while playing for Baker.

Steroids or not they had plenty to do with Baker's winning record.

It takes good players for teams to win. What did Francona do when he wasn't with the Red Sox? What did Bobby Cox do before the Braves?

Don't quite understand why people hold Bonds and Sosa's success against Baker.

Ron Madden
04-20-2010, 12:42 PM
Don't quite understand why people hold Bonds and Sosa's success against Baker.

I don't hold it against him. I just believe Bakers record with the Reds is more in line with his skill as a Manager than his record with the Giants and Cubs.

TRF
04-20-2010, 12:47 PM
I don't hold it against him. I just believe Bakers record with the Reds is more in line with his skill as a Manager than his record with the Giants and Cubs.

And I think it's more indicative of the fact that his GM in those cities provided him with better players.

Captain Hook
04-20-2010, 12:52 PM
So what some of you are saying is that the Reds have no talent or at least are lacking in that department so badly that there would be no chance for any manager to win with what Baker has and because of that he should just be allowed to continue collecting a paycheck no matter what the outcome of this season is?

TRF
04-20-2010, 12:55 PM
So what some of you are saying is that the Reds have no talent or at least are lacking in that department so badly that there would be no chance for any manager to win with what Baker has and because of that he should just be allowed to continue collecting a paycheck no matter what the outcome of this season is?

I'm saying it's year three of Walt Jocketty and I'm not seeing improvement in the quality of players on the field.

Dusty's fault or Walt's?

Chip R
04-20-2010, 12:58 PM
Funny thing is the last player manager before Pete will probably get into the HOF for his managerial skill, whereas the majority of player managers that get into the HOF generally got their for their playing ability, not their managerial skill.


Don Kessinger?

redsmetz
04-20-2010, 01:35 PM
Don Kessinger?

It's funny. I figured out who he meant (Joe Torre), but wasn't aware Kessinger had a short stint as a Player Manager before Rose.

Captain Hook
04-20-2010, 01:35 PM
I'm saying it's year three of Walt Jocketty and I'm not seeing improvement in the quality of players on the field.

Dusty's fault or Walt's?

I wouldn't argue that Walt is to blame as well.It's fair to point that out it just happens that this is a Dusty Baker thread and I do think he does deserve a good share of the blame if this year turns out like years past.While this team isn't a sure fire championship contender and could've certainly been constructed better it's not like Baker is being set up to fail.He knew what he was getting into when he took the job and it seems to me that he has been behind the front office with the direction they've gone.

I remember hearing Baker make a comment when he was first hire as Reds coach that went something along the lines of him knowing that this franchise is doing things the right way and that the Reds are loaded with young talent.I know he said that he had done his homework and that this was the place for him.I wonder if when he was doing his homework he found that it would take 3 straight loosing seasons before getting back on track?

Ron Madden
04-20-2010, 01:39 PM
I wouldn't argue that Walt is to blame as well.It's fair to point that out it just happens that this is a Dusty Baker thread and I do think he does deserve a good share of the blame if this year turns out like years past.While this team isn't a sure fire championship contender and could've certainly been constructed better it's not like Baker is being set up to fail.He knew what he was getting into when he took the job and it seems to me that he has been behind the front office with the direction they've gone.

I remember hearing Baker make a comment when he was first hire as Reds coach that went something along the lines of him knowing that this franchise is doing things the right way and that the Reds are loaded with young talent.I know he said that he had done his homework and that this was the place for him.I wonder if when he was doing his homework he found that it would take 3 straight loosing seasons before getting back on track?

I agree. Walt and Dusty should share any blame.