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Matt700wlw
04-19-2010, 09:43 AM
He's in his 4th year as the Reds hitting instructor.
He was a roving hitting instructor for the Reds minor leagues in 2000 and AAA hitting coach in 2001-2002.
Here is the decline of the Reds offense since his first season in 2007:
Year:............... 2007, 2008, 2009
Runs scored.......783, 704, 673,
Runs per game: 4.83, 4.35, .4.15
Batting Average .267, .247, .247
On-base %....... .335, .321, .318


Thanks, Lance.

RedsManRick
04-19-2010, 09:46 AM
It's hard to extract his impact from the changing talent. However, I've not really seen any players who have been here for the last few years grow under Jacoby's tutelage. The one that stands out to me is Phillips.

Homer Bailey
04-19-2010, 09:57 AM
I can't blame everything on Jacoby, but I really don't see any reason to keep him around at this point. He may be a great hitting coach, but we'll never know that with this bunch. All I know is the current situation isn't working.

membengal
04-19-2010, 10:00 AM
Votto has done fine as a hitter under Jacoby. Just sayin'.

I don't care one way or another whether he stays or goes, but I don't think he's the reason for the offensive woes, and I don't think it gets better if he is replaced. This team is what it is offensively, and its chock-full of hitters who hack and do not work counts. They will be OBP challenged and will have a tough time scoring.

The issue in Cincy remains one of talent. They do not have enough on offense. They will need the pitching and defense to be a LOT better than they have been so far to have a chance at .500.

It is what it is, at this point.

nate
04-19-2010, 10:07 AM
Get better hitters and Jacoby looks like a genius.

To me, blaming the Reds offensive woes on the hitting coach is tilting at windmills.

Ghosts of 1990
04-19-2010, 10:14 AM
It's hard to extract his impact from the changing talent. However, I've not really seen any players who have been here for the last few years grow under Jacoby's tutelage. The one that stands out to me is Phillips.

Phillips, Bruce, Dunn; like you said, no one.

I've said this again and again. Guys aren't blossoming under him. I don't think it's going un-noticed. I think Jacoby is next on the chopping block. Before Dusty and before any players. I truly think he's gone by Memorial Day barring some type of 10 game run where we look like a functional offense.

cumberlandreds
04-19-2010, 10:16 AM
If things keep going like they are the natural order of progression is usually:

Fire the hitting coach/Jacoby about mid May or so.

No improvement within six weeks manager/Baker gets the ax.

Then the Reds start chasing their tail once more.

Homer Bailey
04-19-2010, 10:19 AM
Get better hitters and Jacoby looks like a genius.

To me, blaming the Reds offensive woes on the hitting coach is tilting at windmills.

Although I agree that the talent is severely lacking, I have to question the overall hitting approach. That is something that I put on the coaches/organizational philosophy.

Ghosts of 1990
04-19-2010, 10:21 AM
If things keep going like they are the natural order of progression is usually:

Fire the hitting coach/Jacoby about mid May or so.

No improvement within six weeks manager/Baker gets the ax.

Then the Reds start chasing their tail once more.

I really think Baker survives the season no matter what.

If Baker doesn't, I think that Rick Sweet would be an excellent choice to manage this group. There aren't any broodish veterans who would feel they're above him, and a lot of these young guys might find comfort in Sweet. Sweet has paid his dues in the minors and would be the logical choice IMHO.

nate
04-19-2010, 10:30 AM
Although I agree that the talent is severely lacking, I have to question the overall hitting approach. That is something that I put on the coaches/organizational philosophy.

I put that on player acquisition.

"Look, we've signed a bunch of guys who don't get on base and make a lot of outs and somehow, they don't get on base and make a lot of outs."

And I'm talking beyond the fledgling season at hand.

Tilting at windmills.

westofyou
04-19-2010, 10:37 AM
Hard to fault hitting approach across the board, especially since philosphy and approach about hitting is generally developed prior to any MLB experience. Newsflash, hitting coaches don't turn whole teams and organizations around themselves, if any luck falls on them they will change the game of 1-2 impact players, they will enrich one loser who always seemed lost, meanwhile other guys will fall to the wayside, and often all the coaching in the world can't save them.

To obtain a unified philosophy at hitting put together a group from your own minor league system, stick with them from lower minors to the NL Central and then examine the results.

This of course doesn't mean that any mans job is safe, but instead points out the shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic approach to team building that so many here have and the whiplash inducing changes they think the team should make with a mere 8% of the season of the season gone.

Guacarock
04-19-2010, 10:47 AM
If Baker doesn't [survive], I think that Rick Sweet would be an excellent choice to manage this group. There aren't any broodish veterans who would feel they're above him, and a lot of these young guys might find comfort in Sweet. Sweet has paid his dues in the minors and would be the logical choice IMHO.

Here are the current team batting stats for Louisville:

Batting average: .207, last out of the 14 teams in the International League.
OBP: .282, 13th out of 14 teams.
SLG: .376, 11th out of 14 teams.
OPS: .658, 13th out of 14 teams.

If Rick Sweet can't do any better than that with his charges at AAA, why would we presume he'd work miracles at the ML level? If Dusty goes, I don't want Sweet replacing him, unless it's just on an interim basis. My preference: A new manager from outside the Reds' system who understands the value of OBP, and knows how to best construct lineups to deliver the most runs. Working well with youngsters would also be a plus.

Should Dusty and Jacoby go? Yes, if the team continues to sputter and flounder like it has been. Might not be entirely Dusty and Jacoby's fault, but it's easier to fire a manager and batting coach than to wipe out an entire team. And, if the truth be known, Dusty and Jacoby deserve a share of the blame for the Reds' "hackiness." It reflects their philosophies, as well as their choices of players (for instance, Cairo over Sutton, or Nix over Balentien or Dorn).

Strikes Out Looking
04-19-2010, 12:15 PM
I hear Brook Jacoby is dating Dusty's daughter....;)

RichRed
04-19-2010, 12:19 PM
Bring back Chambliss.

Spring~Fields
04-19-2010, 12:22 PM
I put that on player acquisition.

"Look, we've signed a bunch of guys who don't get on base and make a lot of outs and somehow, they don't get on base and make a lot of outs."

And I'm talking beyond the fledgling season at hand.

Tilting at windmills.

Lookeeeeee there, :shocked: someone in the crowd amongst us really get's it.

Besides Jacoby is just doing what his boss tells him.

I have confidence that Mr. Jocketty can do better choosing his own people, than the ones he inherited from Mr. Castellini and his direct or indirect hires.

TheNext44
04-19-2010, 01:09 PM
Bring back Chambliss.

Does anyone remember why he was fired? I just know that the players loved him and the Reds did have their best offensive year with him, IIRC.

TheNext44
04-19-2010, 01:10 PM
Can anyone remember a team that fired it's batting coach and then got better?

westofyou
04-19-2010, 01:26 PM
Hitting coaches just get in the way

TyCobb

Guacarock
04-19-2010, 01:26 PM
Can anyone remember a team that fired it's batting coach and then got better?

One that comes to mind would be the 2003 Oakland A's. They fired Thad Bosley as their hitting coach early in the season after losing several games due to an anemic offense. The team went on a tear after Bosley was let go -- winning the AL West that season with a 96-66 record, and scoring 768 runs in the process. Scott Hatteberg was part of that squad.

RedsBaron
04-19-2010, 01:35 PM
My preference: A new manager from outside the Reds' system who understands the value of OBP, and knows how to best construct lineups to deliver the most runs.

Now that's just crazy talk. ;)

nate
04-19-2010, 02:20 PM
Hitting coaches just get in the way

TyCobb

With Ty's reputation, "just" might've been "that."

:cool:

Tom Servo
04-19-2010, 02:43 PM
Bring back Chambliss.
Agreed. Dude did nothing to get fired for.

TheNext44
04-19-2010, 02:53 PM
Agreed. Dude did nothing to get fired for.

I can't remember it exactly, but I believe he was another causality of Krivky's ego or maybe he clashed with Narron. I'm not sure, but I believe it was more personal than professional.

The reason given was that the Reds offense slumped the last 5 weeks, which had nothing to do with the Reds trading away two of their best hitters at the deadline. :rolleyes:

mbgrayson
04-19-2010, 02:55 PM
He's in his 4th year as the Reds hitting instructor.
He was a roving hitting instructor for the Reds minor leagues in 2000 and AAA hitting coach in 2001-2002.
Here is the decline of the Reds offense since his first season in 2007:
Year:............... 2007, 2008, 2009
Runs scored.......783, 704, 673,
Runs per game: 4.83, 4.35, .4.15
Batting Average .267, .247, .247
On-base %....... .335, .321, .318


Thanks, Lance.

Interesting. But keep in mind that 2007 was the last full season we had Adam Dunn, Junior hit 30 bombs, Josh Hamilton broke out, EE hit .289 and hit 16 HRs, Hatteberg hit .310 with a .394 OBP, Phillips hit .288 with 30 dingers, David Ross only hit .203 but had a .271 OBP and 17 HRs, and even A.Gon hit .272 with 16 HRs. Remember that Narron managed the 1st half, then Mackanin managed the last half.

Then we must remember that Dusty came in for 2008 and 2009. Is it attributable to Jacoby or Dusty that the offensive numbers dropped? I see no reason to attribute the drop to Jacoby, but it is hard to isolate. One must keep in mind that Dusty's other teams have all favored a non-OBP bias. Dusty has routinely featured lead-off men like Cory Patterson or WIlly Taveras, and how can Jacoby be blamed for that?

How can we blame Jacoby when the 2007 numbers improved over 2006? Here are the 2006 stats:

2006 Reds
Runs scored: 749
Runs per game: 4.62
Bating average: .257
On base %: .336

It is also interesting to look up Brook Jacoby himself in Baseball Reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jacobbr01.shtml) He had career stats of .270/.334/.405 for an OPS of .739 for eleven MLB seasons. The player with the highest similarity to Jacoby: Scott Hatteberg. Lol.

westofyou
04-19-2010, 02:55 PM
I can't remember it exactly, but I believe he was another causality of Krivky's ego or maybe he clashed with Narron. I'm not sure, but I believe it was more personal than professional.

The reason given was that the Reds offense slumped the last 5 weeks, which had nothing to do with the Reds trading away two of their best hitters at the deadline. :rolleyes:

Narron was hte one, not Krivsky.



CINCINNATI -- The Cincinnati Reds batted .257 this season, next to last in the National League. In their search for remedies, the Reds are looking for a new hitting coach.

Chris Chambliss won't be back in 2007 after serving as hitting instructor the past three seasons. While the Reds hit 217 home runs, second most in the NL, they hit only .244 with runners in scoring position, and .209 with two outs.

"I was disappointed, surprised that it happened," said Chambliss. "(Manager) Jerry Narron told me he didn't think our guys made adjustments down the stretch when we hit so

TheNext44
04-19-2010, 02:57 PM
Narron was hte one, not Krivsky.

Thanks. :)

RichRed
04-19-2010, 03:04 PM
So Chambliss was fired due to a remedial understanding of run scoring by his boss(es). That makes me feel better.

TRF
04-19-2010, 03:45 PM
So Chambliss was fired due to a remedial understanding of run scoring by his boss(es). That makes me feel better.

More likely is someone had to be blamed, and the players weren't getting fired...

Spring~Fields
04-19-2010, 06:38 PM
He's in his 4th year as the Reds hitting instructor.
He was a roving hitting instructor for the Reds minor leagues in 2000 and AAA hitting coach in 2001-2002.
Here is the decline of the Reds offense since his first season in 2007:
Year:............... 2007, 2008, 2009
Runs scored.......783, 704, 673,
Runs per game: 4.83, 4.35, .4.15
Batting Average .267, .247, .247
On-base %....... .335, .321, .318


Thanks, Lance.

It's still early for each of these hitting coaches and their players



Central Division Teams
(H + BB + HBP) divided by (AB + BB + HBP + SF)
Teams A B C D E F
.125 .125 .200 .083 .182 .188
.184 .154 .245 .095 .250 .200
.242 .167 .250 .122 .300 .200
.263 .240 .250 .156 .310 .250
.273 .245 .261 .174 .333 .256
.286 .286 .273 .211 .333 .271
.308 .286 .282 .227 .340 .286
.323 .290 .333 .229 .345 .316
.370 .300 .341 .242 .353 .340
.400 .321 .350 .250 .364 .364
.407 .321 .364 .250 .375 .366
.462 .333 .367 .250 .381 .367
.466 .342 .389 .276 .474 .385
.500 .365 .391 .333 .500 .410
.667 .400 .400 .333 1.000 .421
.417 .455 .381
.600 .450
.500
Totals .344 .293 .317 .240 .330 .326
Mil Reds Cubs Hou Pitts StL

Yachtzee
04-19-2010, 10:09 PM
Ironic how players like Dunn and Griffey were scapegoated when the Reds were doing poorly but had a great offense, but now that the team has focused on pitching and defense, the results are pretty much the same. At some point, I only hope the folks running the Reds get to the point where they figure out that if you have a team with an OBP-oriented offense with good pitching and decent defense up the middle (much more important than LF defense for sure), they might do pretty well.

Big Klu
04-19-2010, 10:42 PM
I can't remember it exactly, but I believe he was another causality of Krivky's ego or maybe he clashed with Narron. I'm not sure, but I believe it was more personal than professional.

The reason given was that the Reds offense slumped the last 5 weeks, which had nothing to do with the Reds trading away two of their best hitters at the deadline. :rolleyes:


Narron was hte one, not Krivsky.


So Chambliss was fired due to a remedial understanding of run scoring by his boss(es). That makes me feel better.

Chambliss was known as an excellent hitter in his playing days, while Narron was known as a third catcher. Guess what Jerry valued as a manager? (Managers often try to justify their playing careers--Tony Muser stressed 1B defense when he was manager of the Royals.)

redsmetz
04-20-2010, 12:18 PM
Chambliss was known as an excellent hitter in his playing days, while Narron was known as a third catcher. Guess what Jerry valued as a manager? (Managers often try to justify their playing careers--Tony Muser stressed 1B defense when he was manager of the Royals.)

I just wanted to point out the irony from a member whose moniker is the great hitter who was Sparky Anderson's batting coach. Sparky - he of the one ML season with a .218 batting average.

Sorry, history is replete with managers who had mediocre or average ML careers, or who never made the big leagues. I'm thinking of Bobby Cox who had only a minor league career, or Tony Larussa who knew he better get his law degree because that .199 career average wasn't going to keep him on the ballfield.

bucksfan2
04-20-2010, 12:28 PM
The hitting coach by far gets more blame for the actual impact he has. I can see his conversations with Phillips going like this.

BP at bat #1 lazy pop up to the SS.

Jocoby: BP your pulling off the ball again trying to kill it. Try to stay through the ball longer and shoot the right center gap. Your power is there you just need to stay with the ball longer.

BP at bat #2, ground out to 2b.

Jacoby: BP you doing the same thing. Try to hit the ball to the right side of the field. You are at your best when you do that.

BP at bat #3 double play to the SS.

Jacoby: BP are you listening to me?

BP at bat #4 chopper back to the P

BP avoids Jacoby all together.

paulrichjr
04-20-2010, 12:30 PM
I think everyone who posts on this site knew going into the season that hitting was going to be a big problem for this team. I personally thought the bullpen and starting pitching would keep us in it and help us win more than we lost, but we all knew it was an issue. If Walt didn't know that hitting was going to be a problem, he should be on his way out.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if Dust is gone before June 1st if this stuff continues. Why? No contract extension and not even a hint about it. You gotta know Dust has asked for one. Why the holdup? Walt didn't hire him and you got to believe he knows that part of his success in St. Louis was because he had a manager and pitching coach that was the cream of the crop (as much as I hate to say that about LaRussa) Unless this team starts winning soon Dust will not make it to the All-Star break.

westofyou
04-20-2010, 12:31 PM
I just wanted to point out the irony from a member whose moniker is the great hitter who was Sparky Anderson's batting coach. Sparky - he of the one ML season with a .218 batting average.

Sorry, history is replete with managers who had mediocre or average ML careers, or who never made the big leagues. I'm thinking of Bobby Cox who had only a minor league career, or Tony Larussa who knew he better get his law degree because that .199 career average wasn't going to keep him on the ballfield.

FWIW Bobby Cox was one of the Yankees hottest 3rd base prospects in the 60's, his knees were a death knell. As for Tony, despite his average, not many guys get to play MLB at age 18 so he has that going for him.

RedsManRick
04-20-2010, 12:55 PM
The hitting coach by far gets more blame for the actual impact he has. I can see his conversations with Phillips going like this.

BP at bat #1 lazy pop up to the SS.

Jocoby: BP your pulling off the ball again trying to kill it. Try to stay through the ball longer and shoot the right center gap. Your power is there you just need to stay with the ball longer.

BP at bat #2, ground out to 2b.

Jacoby: BP you doing the same thing. Try to hit the ball to the right side of the field. You are at your best when you do that.

BP at bat #3 double play to the SS.

Jacoby: BP are you listening to me?

BP at bat #4 chopper back to the P

BP avoids Jacoby all together.

Hilarious.

Chip R
04-20-2010, 01:50 PM
So Chambliss was fired due to a remedial understanding of run scoring by his boss(es). That makes me feel better.


He didn't coach the players the rawwwwt way.

redsmetz
04-20-2010, 02:02 PM
I think everyone who posts on this site knew going into the season that hitting was going to be a big problem for this team. I personally thought the bullpen and starting pitching would keep us in it and help us win more than we lost, but we all knew it was an issue. If Walt didn't know that hitting was going to be a problem, he should be on his way out.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if Dust is gone before June 1st if this stuff continues. Why? No contract extension and not even a hint about it. You gotta know Dust has asked for one. Why the holdup? Walt didn't hire him and you got to believe he knows that part of his success in St. Louis was because he had a manager and pitching coach that was the cream of the crop (as much as I hate to say that about LaRussa) Unless this team starts winning soon Dust will not make it to the All-Star break.

Have you been in on some meetings with the Reds brass that makes you privy to this insider info? I'm not sure you can say with any kind of certainty what we all "have to know". While many posters said the hitting would be a problem, that's really not surprising. It's really de rigueur around RZ, isn't it? The skies generally falling most any day of the week. Frankly, I'll be surprised if the hitting continues this way. I could be wrong, but I think it will come around.

The site's pretty much been in full panic mode from the first game, hasn't it?

redsmetz
04-20-2010, 02:35 PM
RedReporter's site talks about the Jacoby situation.

http://www.redreporter.com/2010/4/20/1432825/can-the-reds-at-least-change-their

Is he a poster here on RZ? I'm not asking that based on us having this discussion, I just can't recall.

paulrichjr
04-20-2010, 03:23 PM
Have you been in on some meetings with the Reds brass that makes you privy to this insider info? I'm not sure you can say with any kind of certainty what we all "have to know". While many posters said the hitting would be a problem, that's really not surprising. It's really de rigueur around RZ, isn't it? The skies generally falling most any day of the week. Frankly, I'll be surprised if the hitting continues this way. I could be wrong, but I think it will come around.

The site's pretty much been in full panic mode from the first game, hasn't it?

You don't think a manager in his last year of his contract has at least asked about his contract being extended? Especially when he is one of the highest paid managers in baseball?

As far as Redszone..yea I agree it's always in panic mode and I do believe they will probably start hitting better. (I imagine even the most cynical poster on Redszone knows that some of these guys aren't going to hit less than .200)

I still have a hard time blaming Jacoby for a team that's one glaring weakness that most people would agree with was hitting.

redsmetz
04-20-2010, 05:46 PM
You don't think a manager in his last year of his contract has at least asked about his contract being extended? Especially when he is one of the highest paid managers in baseball?

As far as Redszone..yea I agree it's always in panic mode and I do believe they will probably start hitting better. (I imagine even the most cynical poster on Redszone knows that some of these guys aren't going to hit less than .200)

I still have a hard time blaming Jacoby for a team that's one glaring weakness that most people would agree with was hitting.

Couple of thoughts. It's possible Baker has asked, although it seems to me we've read enough times that Jockety's generally an "after the season" guy was that way with LaRussa, as I recall).

Regarding Jacoby, I know I suggested the idea for this thread, I'm not certain I lay this at his feet. Partly though, we never hear much about his work (that I can remember). But I'm not big on the approach we're seeing. That might be Baker's philosophy of being aggressive, although I think he has tempered that from time to time mentioning that he's talking about being ready for to hit good pitches, etc (a fairly basic philosophy). I'm with those who really liked Chambliss and his approach, but that's water under the bridge. Still, I'd like to see much better results at the plate all around.

Spring~Fields
04-20-2010, 07:22 PM
The skies generally falling most any day of the week.

10 long years, a decade, of losing which is considered failure in some sports circles, above the little league levels, will pretty much condition the responses that you speak of.

I guess we are all waiting for the Reds to bring back the sunshine and put back the blue skys. :)

TheNext44
04-20-2010, 08:41 PM
Hilarious.

Funny, because it's true.

paulrichjr
04-20-2010, 10:20 PM
Well Jacoby should be signed to an extension right now. The Reds have scored at least 11 runs this game. He has turned the ship around. Price on the other hand...The bullpen was good last year and now it's not...we need Pole back! :D