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Captain Hook
04-20-2010, 01:12 PM
I'm not going to suggest that Hanigan plays every day but I do think that he should receive the same majority of starts that Hernandez is getting now with Ramon falling to the backup/secondary catcher.We all know what a difficult time this team has getting on base and Hanigan is without any doubt capable of doing just that at a very respectable clip.It also seems like in the early going that Ryan has shaken the myth that he can't hit with runners on and he is superior on D IMO.

It probably wouldn't make a huge difference as Hernandez isn't terrible but why not give the most productive guy the bulk of the PT?What do you guys think?

camisadelgolf
04-20-2010, 02:25 PM
When it comes to making the most ideal lineup, I'd like to see Hernandez get the playing time against LHP with both Hanigan and Hernandez splitting time against RHP. However, I think most of the playing time is decided by the starting pitcher that day. So far, their playing time has been pretty equal, and I'm okay with that.

mth123
04-20-2010, 02:46 PM
Hanigan is a good back-up catcher. Hernandez isn't. The reds had many opportunities to go another direction. Bringing Ramon back was a bad idea IMO.

That said, I'd rather Ramon start, so that at least the Reds have a good catcher the 35% of the time when Hanigan plays. If Hanigan played every day, his warts would show and we wouldn't have anything. The team needs a younger starter. Hanigan is pushing 30 and can play the crafty vet back-up role. No need for a 30 something starter.

fearofpopvol1
04-20-2010, 08:00 PM
I think Hanigan should be starting a little bit more than he is with Ramon still getting the majority of starts.

Captain Hook
04-28-2010, 12:32 AM
I'd really like Hanigan playing just about everyday.It seems to me that he is one of the tougher outs on the team and plays much better defense then Hernandez.While I am somewhat pleased that he is playing much more often I think it's time he gets a shot at the everyday job.

WVPacman
04-28-2010, 12:50 AM
I think right now you have to stay with Hanigan b/c he is on fire at the plate and his defense isn't to shabby either.He has really played great so far in the games he has played and you have to reward the guy for that and give him more playing time.

Mario-Rijo
04-28-2010, 01:01 AM
Hanigan is a good back-up catcher. Hernandez isn't. The reds had many opportunities to go another direction. Bringing Ramon back was a bad idea IMO.

That said, I'd rather Ramon start, so that at least the Reds have a good catcher the 35% of the time when Hanigan plays. If Hanigan played every day, his warts would show and we wouldn't have anything. The team needs a younger starter. Hanigan is pushing 30 and can play the crafty vet back-up role. No need for a 30 something starter.

Quite an assumption i'm assuming based on a partial season of games. I disagree Hanigan is one of if not the best defensive catcher in the NL (Yadier included) and besides lacking top notch power there isn't a flaw or wart in his game. He absolutely should be starting!

Will M
04-28-2010, 01:02 AM
Hanigan deserves more playing time. I understand the reasons people give for not playing him every day but a 50/50 split for a while seems better than giving Hanigan only 20-25% of the starts. no question he is the better defensive catcher and right now he is outhitting Ramon as well.

i'll make the same arguement for SS. give Janish 1/2 the starts & see how he does.

fearofpopvol1
04-28-2010, 02:01 AM
Dusty should ride his hot bat

mth123
04-28-2010, 02:37 AM
Quite an assumption i'm assuming based on a partial season of games. I disagree Hanigan is one of if not the best defensive catcher in the NL (Yadier included) and besides lacking top notch power there isn't a flaw or wart in his game. He absolutely should be starting!

How many times have we seen players perform really well in a limited role only to crash and burn when exposed to the day-in day-out grind? Chris Stynes? Jon Nunnally? Jerry Hairston? Ryan Freel? Lenny Harris?....

Hanigan was never really a full-time guy even in the minor leagues. 119 Games in A+ in 2004 is his high water mark. He's a complimentary tandem player and he's really good at it. IMO, he's not the answer every day. The Reds just need a better primary guy and bringing back Hernandez was one of the most atrocious ideas the team has had in a while IMO.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 02:37 AM
Dusty should ride his hot bat
That sounds incredibly innapropriate.

camisadelgolf
04-28-2010, 02:43 AM
How many times have we seen players perform really well in a limited role only to crash and burn when exposed to the day-in day-out grind? Chris Stynes? Jon Nunnally? Jerry Hairston? Ryan Freel? Lenny Harris?....

Hanigan was never really a full-time guy even in the minor leagues. 119 Games in A+ in 2004 is his high water mark. He's a complimentary tandem player and he's really good at it. IMO, he's not the answer every day. The Reds just need a better primary guy and bringing back Hernandez was one of the most atrocious ideas the team has had in a while IMO.
Who were better options than Hernandez at a similar price?

mth123
04-28-2010, 02:48 AM
Who were better options than Hernandez at a similar price?

Kelly Shoppach for one. Heck, Corky Miller.

WMR
04-28-2010, 02:49 AM
Stick with Hanigan and get him in the top of the lineup until he cools down.

camisadelgolf
04-28-2010, 03:37 AM
Kelly Shoppach for one. Heck, Corky Miller.
I won't address the Corky Miller thing (because I'm assuming that was a joke), but I'll compare Hernandez to Shoppach.

Hernandez is the better hitter against RHP, so if you're bringing in Schoppach instead, it probably means using Hanigan as the everyday catcher against right-handers.

Hernandez speaks Spanish, and Shoppach doesn't. When you have a team relying heavily on Johnny Cueto, Francisco Cordero, and at some point both Edinson Volquez and Aroldis Chapman, that could really come in handy.

Hernandez is the better hitter with runners on base, runners in scoring position, and pretty much any other clutch stat. He also strikes out much less.

Kelly Shoppach's contract for 2011 is guaranteed, so if his production were to rapidly decline (which wouldn't be shocking since he, like Hernandez, is already in his 30s), the team would be obligated to pay his contract.

Captain Hook
04-28-2010, 03:46 AM
With only 29 ABs compared to the 50+ ABs that everyday starting catchers around baseball have,Hanigan still manages to be 3rd in RBIs,top 10 in hits along with 3rd in doubles and that's among all catchers in baseball.No one is even close to Hanigan in any major stat based on a percentages.There's isn't one good reason not to play a guy putting up those kind of numbers when his competition is an aging veteran that's was nothing special to begin with.

Ron Madden
04-28-2010, 04:43 AM
Hanigan deserves more playing time. I understand the reasons people give for not playing him every day but a 50/50 split for a while seems better than giving Hanigan only 20-25% of the starts. no question he is the better defensive catcher and right now he is outhitting Ramon as well.

i'll make the same arguement for SS. give Janish 1/2 the starts & see how he does.


I'm in agreement with this post.

For the time being I'd give Hanigan the lions share of PT over Hernandez. We must remember however that Hanigan is 30 years old and the catchers position remains a huge question mark going forward.

mth123
04-28-2010, 04:46 AM
I won't address the Corky Miller thing (because I'm assuming that was a joke), but I'll compare Hernandez to Shoppach.

Hernandez is the better hitter against RHP, so if you're bringing in Schoppach instead, it probably means using Hanigan as the everyday catcher against right-handers.

Hernandez speaks Spanish, and Shoppach doesn't. When you have a team relying heavily on Johnny Cueto, Francisco Cordero, and at some point both Edinson Volquez and Aroldis Chapman, that could really come in handy.

Hernandez is the better hitter with runners on base, runners in scoring position, and pretty much any other clutch stat. He also strikes out much less.

Kelly Shoppach's contract for 2011 is guaranteed, so if his production were to rapidly decline (which wouldn't be shocking since he, like Hernandez, is already in his 30s), the team would be obligated to pay his contract.

I'll just have to disagree. I could care less about the Spanish speaking thing. That is way overblown IMO. If you must have Spanish Olivo, Torrealba and Barajas come to mind as better than Ramon and were as reasonable. Heck, pass on some of the other chaff and spend a little more for Bengie Molina.

And I was serious about Corky Miller. If you are going to go with a low budget defensive guy back there, why not go with one who is actually a good defender? Put Ramon's cash toward a better answer in LF.

durl
04-28-2010, 10:31 AM
With only 29 ABs compared to the 50+ ABs that everyday starting catchers around baseball have,Hanigan still manages to be 3rd in RBIs,top 10 in hits along with 3rd in doubles and that's among all catchers in baseball.No one is even close to Hanigan in any major stat based on a percentages.There's isn't one good reason not to play a guy putting up those kind of numbers when his competition is an aging veteran that's was nothing special to begin with.

It's stuff like that that makes me think he should get the majority of starts. He's got a great arm, he plays pretty good defense (IMO) and he's flat-out getting it done at the plate.

I know...just because he's doing well as a backup doesn't mean he'll stay hot if he plays more, but what if he does just as well when he plays every day? And we won't know that until he's given the opportunity. You never know until you try. I realize a player's averages are a great indicator of their ability. However, averages are made up of lows and HIGHS. Who knows, maybe Hanigan is on a "high" streak right now.

Over the past week, Hanigan has had multi-hit games every time he's had multiple ABs. For his 12 games this season, he's hitting .483, has a .559 OBP, and a 1.248 OPS. I just don't see how you keep a guy like that on the bench. "You're doing GREAT, Hanigan...one of the hottest catchers in the league. But your lifetime averages tell me that you can't keep this up so go take a seat. Thanks."

nate
04-28-2010, 11:16 AM
If Hanigan played every day, his warts would show

I'd like the Reds to at least put that theory to the test. If his "warts" show to the point where he's as bad as Razor Ramon, then they can platoon. Until then, what does it hurt to put him out there most days?


and we wouldn't have anything.

We wouldn't have Hernandez? What happened to him?


The team needs a younger starter.

It needs a lot of things.


Hanigan is pushing 30 and can play the crafty vet back-up role. No need for a 30 something starter.

Huh? Why? If he's getting the job done, who cares how old he is? Let him play. It'll take a long fall for him to get worse than Hernandez.

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 02:29 PM
I'd like the Reds to at least put that theory to the test. If his "warts" show to the point where he's as bad as Razor Ramon, then they can platoon. Until then, what does it hurt to put him out there most days?



It has been put to the test, and it wasn't pretty.

Hanigan's numbers once Hernandez went on the DL last year and he started playing 5 days a week:

.160 .264 .226 .491

Considering how demanding it is to play Catcher, I like splitting it between two guys around 60-40. I think Hanigan can thrive playing 2-3 games a week.

nate
04-28-2010, 03:15 PM
It has been put to the test, and it wasn't pretty.

Hanigan's numbers once Hernandez went on the DL last year and he started playing 5 days a week:

.160 .264 .226 .491

Considering how demanding it is to play Catcher, I like splitting it between two guys around 60-40. I think Hanigan can thrive playing 2-3 games a week.

How many PAs was that?

They still ended up with pretty much the same production in 2009. So far this year, one guy is playing well and the other isn't. A handful of poor PAs doesn't count as evidence that a guy is "exposed."

_Sir_Charles_
04-28-2010, 03:57 PM
Hanigan sitting today in favor of Razor. I just don't get it.

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 05:25 PM
How many PAs was that?

They still ended up with pretty much the same production in 2009. So far this year, one guy is playing well and the other isn't. A handful of poor PAs doesn't count as evidence that a guy is "exposed."

That was over 40 games and 121 PA's.

I'm not arguing that he was "exposed", more like tired. And remember he played almost everyday when Votto was out. He actually caught more than Hernandez last year, 72 games to 55.

And Hernandez isn't playing bad enough to be dropped. He's right around his projections. If he had two more hits, he be OPS'ing .700. And at the end of the season, that's where I see Hanigan hitting as well.

My point is that Hanigan seemed to wilt from playing every day, and Hernandez is really not much worse than he is, so why not have them split the catching duties. And for the record, that is what is happening. Hernandez 12 starts, Hanigan 8 starts so far, and Hernandez has not caught more than two days in a row yet. Sure, I'd like to see Hanigan get about one more start a week, but that's about it.

Spring~Fields
04-28-2010, 05:53 PM
That was over 40 games and 121 PA's.

I'm not arguing that he was "exposed", more like tired.

My point is that Hanigan seemed to wilt from playing every day, and Hernandez is really not much worse than he is, so why not have them split the catching duties. And for the record, that is what is happening. Hernandez 12 starts, Hanigan 8 starts so far, and Hernandez has not caught more than two days in a row yet. Sure, I'd like to see Hanigan get about one more start a week, but that's about it.

Hey Next, do you have a stat or a link for that “wilt factor” ? :lol:

There seems to have been a lot of that with this team already this year even before they completed 20 games, team wide.

Contagious or just group synergy? :)

Maybe this years more expensive ancients on the team should be given more rest and the somewhat younger and cheaper backups should take the load off of them by getting more playing time, PA and AB, especially during a time when they are producing better?

Chip R
04-28-2010, 05:54 PM
Hanigan sitting today in favor of Razor. I just don't get it.


Veteran catcher with rookie pitcher. Plus Razor makes much more than Hanigan.

Mario-Rijo
04-28-2010, 05:56 PM
How many times have we seen players perform really well in a limited role only to crash and burn when exposed to the day-in day-out grind? Chris Stynes? Jon Nunnally? Jerry Hairston? Ryan Freel? Lenny Harris?....

Hanigan was never really a full-time guy even in the minor leagues. 119 Games in A+ in 2004 is his high water mark. He's a complimentary tandem player and he's really good at it. IMO, he's not the answer every day. The Reds just need a better primary guy and bringing back Hernandez was one of the most atrocious ideas the team has had in a while IMO.

So we should just assume he isn't capable of being an everyday starter because we have had part time players in the past? I don't see the logic. Besides few catchers catch 162 games anyway and that isn't what I'm suggesting, he should take games off. 110-120 this season with Ramon spotting him at times is fine. There is absolutely nothing that says Ramon is the better choice to take on that many games at this point anyway.

westofyou
04-28-2010, 05:59 PM
Hanigan isn't starting because he ain't the starter, he's a backup who is spot started at this juncture, if he was blowing the doors off with the glove or bat he'd have taken the job already.

And yes part of Hernandez's presence is based on things fans likely never see, including the ability to speak spanish (despite it's unimportance to us english 1st folks) and work with the plethora of young latino pitchers the team is leaning on in the future.

Cathers are not about hitting, it's pretty obvious 90% of the fan base doesn't get that whilst 90% of the league operates that way.

Mario-Rijo
04-28-2010, 06:00 PM
It has been put to the test, and it wasn't pretty.

Hanigan's numbers once Hernandez went on the DL last year and he started playing 5 days a week:

.160 .264 .226 .491

Considering how demanding it is to play Catcher, I like splitting it between two guys around 60-40. I think Hanigan can thrive playing 2-3 games a week.

How is a partial season any kind of true indicator? Small sample size especially when it was his 1st full season. Guys were quick to suggest he was a poor guy at driving in runs also, when it was clear he was just adjusting. He'll adjust to being a full time starter as well if given a chance. There is no indications that he can't or won't do just fine.

Mario-Rijo
04-28-2010, 06:07 PM
Hanigan isn't starting because he ain't the starter, he's a backup who is spot started at this juncture, if he was blowing the doors off with the glove or bat he'd have taken the job already.

And yes part of Hernandez's presence is based on things fans likely never see, including the ability to speak spanish (despite it's unimportance to us english 1st folks) and work with the plethora of young latino pitchers the team is leaning on in the future.

Cathers are not about hitting, it's pretty obvious 90% of the fan base doesn't get that whilst 90% of the league operates that way.

I happen to think he is blowing the doors off of the catching position and handling the bat just fine as well, and I think 90% is an extreme exaggeration. Dusty isn't gonna disrespect Ramon by making him the backup, it has nothing to do with production with him or with alot of managers anymore. The point about the language issue is a fair one but it's not like Hanigan hasn't caught them before and will again.

TRF
04-28-2010, 06:08 PM
well for today, the latin speaking catcher has no clear advantage receiving pitches from Leake. So, it probably SHOULD be Hanigan. He is hitting the ball, and his hitting hasn't cooled off in the last 7 days. Hernandez hasn't been bad over that period either, posting an .855 OPS. But Hanigan's 1.695 OPS over the same time period, with the same number of AB's suggests his bat might be a tad hot right now.

So why not ride it?

But its not like Hernandez .855 is a bad thing. Hand wringing i guess.

westofyou
04-28-2010, 06:13 PM
29 ab seasons don't usurp the annoited starter, it's the way the game is played in 30 MLB stadiums across the continent.

Spring~Fields
04-28-2010, 06:16 PM
With only 29 ABs compared to the 50+ ABs that everyday starting catchers around baseball have,Hanigan still manages to be 3rd in RBIs,top 10 in hits along with 3rd in doubles and that's among all catchers in baseball.No one is even close to Hanigan in any major stat based on a percentages.There's isn't one good reason not to play a guy putting up those kind of numbers when his competition is an aging veteran that's was nothing special to begin with.

That’s been a problem with this team that has been mentioned on various occasions over the past couple seasons. The hot hand doesn’t always earn respect and appreciation during their nice spurts of production at the plate or in the field as each of them go through small samples throughout the season of ups and downs.

Many of them are often relegated to polishing the bench in lieu of the contracted experienced player. Then they get some of that irregular and spot play taking them from what some might call being in a groove from regular play, and all of sudden, they just don’t have it, and there are some small samples naturally, to support it.

Some things they can't correct, there are barriers, and issues that block certain goals and their achievement. What you speak of here has been and is within their control to adjust, adapt and correct in the present.

Tradition and old paradigms of baseball thinking often take precedence and supersedes current production and output in lieu of the declining and regressing.

Good thing they run into poor pitching and weak offenses, or our favorite team would really be in a pickle.

TRF
04-28-2010, 06:23 PM
29 ab seasons don't usurp the annoited starter, it's the way the game is played in 30 MLB stadiums across the continent.

Its not how its not played either. Or incumbents would never get supplanted. Votto took over the 1B job in this way, but he was seen as a "real" prospect, where Hanigan is not. It took LaRue forever to get the starting catcher's job in Cincinnati for pretty much the same reason.

To go back to St. Louis, they seem willing to give a chance to late bloomers like Ludwick and this year Freese. JimBo has been gone 7 years now and it seems the system is still looking for his 5 tool players that are under 23 years old.

westofyou
04-28-2010, 06:29 PM
Its not how its not played either. Or incumbents would never get supplanted. Votto took over the 1B job in this way, but he was seen as a "real" prospect, where Hanigan is not. It took LaRue forever to get the starting catcher's job in Cincinnati for pretty much the same reason.

To go back to St. Louis, they seem willing to give a chance to late bloomers like Ludwick and this year Freese. JimBo has been gone 7 years now and it seems the system is still looking for his 5 tool players that are under 23 years old.

29 ab's is the key, gloss over that and miss the point. vets don't lose their jobs on 29 ab's.

Spring~Fields
04-28-2010, 06:35 PM
How is a partial season any kind of true indicator?

Filtering with selective reasoning and from a motivation of confirmation bias.

Oh you didn't ask why. :oops:

TRF
04-28-2010, 06:41 PM
29 ab's is the key, gloss over that and miss the point. vets don't lose their jobs on 29 ab's.

true.

But a lot of managers would play the hot hand. Hanigan was 2-3 last night. And He's had a good week. I also think he's the likely starter next year.

But I'm not hand wringing over Hernandez in there tonight. He's been hitting well lately.

dougdirt
04-28-2010, 06:42 PM
29 ab's is the key, gloss over that and miss the point. vets don't lose their jobs on 29 ab's.
Sure, but Hanigan should have been the starting catcher two years running now.

westofyou
04-28-2010, 06:43 PM
Sure, but Hanigan should have been the starting catcher two years running now.

Well that and a buck can buy him a USA Today.

Spring~Fields
04-28-2010, 06:46 PM
Veteran catcher with rookie pitcher. Plus Razor makes much more than Hanigan.

Plus a lot of thinking and decision making in addition to the money went into selecting players such as Hernandez over Hanigan and other’s. That would not look good upon those decisions if it appeared that ……well you know that.

Sometimes I wonder how long one has to play that game, called baseball before one is sufficiently experienced. :)

Cost accounting and finance always seems to be a part of the process. Even when cost benefit analysis might indicate something as being a better choice, tonight.

nate
04-28-2010, 06:55 PM
That was over 40 games and 121 PA's.

I'm not arguing that he was "exposed", more like tired. And remember he played almost everyday when Votto was out. He actually caught more than Hernandez last year, 72 games to 55.

I say there's a third way that makes the most sense to me: it's simple variation. I would guess I could find poor stretches like that in just about any .700-ish OPS dude with less than 500 PAs. It happens.


And Hernandez isn't playing bad enough to be dropped. He's right around his projections. If he had two more hits, he be OPS'ing .700. And at the end of the season, that's where I see Hanigan hitting as well.

I'm not saying Hernandez should be dropped. I'm saying that Hanigan should be getting the bulk of the playing time and hitting higher in the order.


My point is that Hanigan seemed to wilt from playing every day, and Hernandez is really not much worse than he is, so why not have them split the catching duties. And for the record, that is what is happening. Hernandez 12 starts, Hanigan 8 starts so far, and Hernandez has not caught more than two days in a row yet. Sure, I'd like to see Hanigan get about one more start a week, but that's about it.

I don't buy that because he had a poor 120-odd ABs, he's "wilt-prone."

I think he should be starting 75% of the time and hitting in the middle 3rd of the lineup. Well...I'd put him in the top 3 and see how that goes but that might "blow minds."

:cool:

nate
04-28-2010, 07:10 PM
How is a partial season any kind of true indicator? Small sample size especially when it was his 1st full season. Guys were quick to suggest he was a poor guy at driving in runs also, when it was clear he was just adjusting.

Or the tiniest of tiny small sample sizes while hitting 8th behind Adam Rosales.

nate
04-28-2010, 07:11 PM
Hanigan isn't starting because he ain't the starter, he's a backup who is spot started at this juncture, if he was blowing the doors off with the glove or bat he'd have taken the job already.

I guess the "blowing the doors off" bar is pretty high then.


And yes part of Hernandez's presence is based on things fans likely never see, including the ability to speak spanish (despite it's unimportance to us english 1st folks)

I think "us English 1st folks" is a bit dramatic.

Hernandez can start when our one Spanish-speaking starter (who seems to be doing his best to learn English) takes the mound. Failing that, I believe Orlando Cabrera speaks Spanish. When Chapman comes up, if he does this year, those options remain.


and work with the plethora of young latino pitchers the team is leaning on in the future.

Cathers are not about hitting, it's pretty obvious 90% of the fan base doesn't get that whilst 90% of the league operates that way.

Hanigan's better with the glove and the bat.

Get him Rosetta Stone.

Spring~Fields
04-28-2010, 07:11 PM
I think he should be starting 75% of the time and hitting in the middle 3rd of the lineup. Well...I'd put him in the top 3 and see how that goes but that might "blow minds."
:cool:

Higher BA, OBP should be compatible with traditional thinking in those from older baseball era's. Hanigan would seem to fit where you are speaking. The guy plays pretty good defense too, doesn't he.

westofyou
04-28-2010, 07:16 PM
OPS+ of 84 last year, a robust 97 in over 400 MLB ab's, Hanigan might be able to get on base, but that's pretty much his offense, he has Ecksteinian power.

Of course those 29 ab's this season are what really matter the most.

dougdirt
04-28-2010, 07:26 PM
OPS+ of 84 last year, a robust 97 in over 400 MLB ab's, Hanigan might be able to get on base, but that's pretty much his offense, he has Ecksteinian power.

Of course those 29 ab's this season are what really matter the most.

Gets on base + some of the best defense of any catcher in baseball = on the bench behind Ramon Hernandez.

westofyou
04-28-2010, 07:27 PM
Gets on base + some of the best defense of any catcher in baseball = on the bench behind Ramon Hernandez.

Of course his MLB defensive metrics are based on spotty 4 year data, so it's hardly quantifiable.

But you knew that.

nate
04-28-2010, 07:28 PM
OPS+ of 84 last year, a robust 97 in over 400 MLB ab's, Hanigan might be able to get on base, but that's pretty much his offense, he has Ecksteinian power.

Since the Reds have maybe three guys who can get on base and sock it, one guys who can sock it and a bunch of lower third hitters, it would be nice to have a guy who can get on base in the lineup.


Of course those 29 ab's this season are what really matter the most.

I don't think that's the argument I'm making. I think he's a net better player, his bat's similar and his glove is better. I also think the Reds need less out-makers in the lineup and Hanigan is a guy that makes fewer outs.

Career wOBA
Hanigan: .333
Hernandez: .324

Career OBP
Hanigan: .378
Hernandez: .327

Career SLG
Hanigan: .368
Hernandez: .416

Career OPS
Hanigan: .746
Hernandez: .743

I know...trying to get Hanigan in a couple more games a week and hitting higher in the order would be a real mind-blower.

dougdirt
04-28-2010, 07:29 PM
Of course his MLB defensive metrics are based on spotty 4 year data, so it's hardly quantifiable.

But you knew that.

Defensive metrics. Scouting reports. Doesn't matter which one you look at. They agree. Hanigan is one of the best defensive catchers in baseball.

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 08:04 PM
well for today, the latin speaking catcher has no clear advantage receiving pitches from Leake.

How do you know they both aren't big fans of Fuego en la Sangre ;)

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 08:19 PM
Hanigan isn't starting because he ain't the starter, he's a backup who is spot started at this juncture, if he was blowing the doors off with the glove or bat he'd have taken the job already.

And yes part of Hernandez's presence is based on things fans likely never see, including the ability to speak spanish (despite it's unimportance to us english 1st folks) and work with the plethora of young latino pitchers the team is leaning on in the future.

Cathers are not about hitting, it's pretty obvious 90% of the fan base doesn't get that whilst 90% of the league operates that way.

This last part is what people seem to be ignoring. And catching is not all about throwing runners out. It's about being a second pitching coach, about being a leader of the infield, and many other qualities that stats can't capture, at least not yet.

Hanigan may be better than Hernandez at the above part, but I know that I can't tell. That's for the professionals. But I do know that the Reds think that Hernandez excels at the above part, and that is why they brought him back, and why they like him playing a majority of the games. Until someone can make an argument against that, all the other arguments just are not relevant.

And I think we are only talking about a handful of games one way or the other. Right now without any changes to the Reds plan, I'd say Hernandez starts 85 games, Hanigan starts 70 and 7 more from Miller/Castillo in Sept. I'd have no problem switching them, but I just don't see any Reds catcher catching more than 90 games this season, so it's really not all that important.

westofyou
04-28-2010, 09:33 PM
Defensive metrics. Scouting reports. Doesn't matter which one you look at. They agree. Hanigan is one of the best defensive catchers in baseball.

Awesome, with his OB skills and lack of power he has the ability to be the next Mike Redmond.

Not a bad thing to be.

But..... scouts will tell you the older a player gets the more his place in the organization is defined,and Ryan is almost 30 and he's been around awhile.

mth123
04-28-2010, 09:44 PM
I'd like the Reds to at least put that theory to the test. If his "warts" show to the point where he's as bad as Razor Ramon, then they can platoon. Until then, what does it hurt to put him out there most days?



We wouldn't have Hernandez? What happened to him?



It needs a lot of things.



Huh? Why? If he's getting the job done, who cares how old he is? Let him play. It'll take a long fall for him to get worse than Hernandez.


You misunderstand, probably because I was unclear. I think Ramon is awful and Hanigan is pretty good if his PT is limited. Even as a minor leaguer Hanigan was never really a full-time starter. As a second catcher playing second catcher innings he's good. As a guy with more PT I think he'll be much less effective. Its a given that Ramon won't be any good, so if we decrease Hanigan's effectiveness, that leaves us with poor catching every day. Under the current set-up at least we get good play when Hanigan is in there.

As far as the age goes, this team seems obsessed with having a veteran catcher to pair with Hanigan. IMO its not needed because Hanigan is pushing 30 and has more experience with this staff than anyone. I'd prefer Hanigan be the vet catcher with the other spot earmarked for a younger guy who has a chance to be the catcher of the future. Lets stop the cycle of crummy vets like Bako, Javy, Ross and Ramon. If the team is to get a vet, lets get a guy who is still productive and not one who was good 5 years ago (or never was). If the team just wants a heady vet who can't hit, just go with Corky who is probably smarter, a better defender and a lot cheaper than the retreads.

nate
04-28-2010, 10:09 PM
You misunderstand, probably because I was unclear. I think Ramon is awful and Hanigan is pretty good if his PT is limited. Even as a minor leaguer Hanigan was never really a full-time starter. As a second catcher playing second catcher innings he's good. As a guy with more PT I think he'll be much less effective. Its a given that Ramon won't be any good, so if we decrease Hanigan's effectiveness, that leaves us with poor catching every day. Under the current set-up at least we get good play when Hanigan is in there.

And I'm saying, let's find out if that's actually true.


As far as the age goes, this team seems obsessed with having a veteran catcher to pair with Hanigan. IMO its not needed because Hanigan is pushing 30 and has more experience with this staff than anyone. I'd prefer Hanigan be the vet catcher with the other spot earmarked for a younger guy who has a chance to be the catcher of the future. Lets stop the cycle of crummy vets like Bako, Javy, Ross and Ramon. If the team is to get a vet, lets get a guy who is still productive and not one who was good 5 years ago (or never was). If the team just wants a heady vet who can't hit, just go with Corky who is probably smarter, a better defender and a lot cheaper than the retreads.

High five!

fearofpopvol1
04-29-2010, 12:31 AM
Awesome, with his OB skills and lack of power he has the ability to be the next Mike Redmond.

Not a bad thing to be.

But..... scouts will tell you the older a player gets the more his place in the organization is defined,and Ryan is almost 30 and he's been around awhile.

To no fault of his own, mind you.

The kind of thinking you described above is very "old school" and doesn't embrace sabermetrics at all. Hopefully we're seeing the end of this sort of thing.

A team or manager should put the best player out there to succeed and right now, that guy is Hanigan.

SMcGavin
04-29-2010, 12:44 AM
OPS+ of 84 last year, a robust 97 in over 400 MLB ab's, Hanigan might be able to get on base, but that's pretty much his offense, he has Ecksteinian power.

Of course those 29 ab's this season are what really matter the most.

I don't get why a 97 OPS+ from a catcher is something to scoff at? Especially from a guy universally regarded as a solid defensive catcher (we could debate exactly how good he is all day but about everyone agrees he's average or better).

westofyou
04-29-2010, 12:48 AM
To no fault of his own, mind you.

The kind of thinking you described above is very "old school" and doesn't embrace sabermetrics at all. Hopefully we're seeing the end of this sort of thing.

A team or manager should put the best player out there to succeed and right now, that guy is Hanigan.

Most sabermetric studies will tell you that a guy in Hanigans shoes is playing the role of Sisyphus, but hey you already know that.

TheNext44
04-29-2010, 12:49 AM
Most sabermetric studies will tell you that a guy in Hanigans shoes is playing the role of Sisyphus, but hey you already know that.

Yes, but then again, aren't we all.

westofyou
04-29-2010, 12:49 AM
I don't get why a 97 OPS+ from a catcher is something to scoff at? Especially from a guy universally regarded as a solid defensive catcher (we could debate exactly how good he is all day but about everyone agrees he's average or better).

I scoff only because so many want to trumpet his on base skills without looking at the drag on his offense, the lack of power... which is fine, but seriously he's not Mike Piazza.

pedro
04-29-2010, 12:53 AM
I think Hanigan is a fine guy to have as part of a catching tandem and I want him playing more often than Hernandez but catching is a very physically demanding position and I think he'll do best if he plays somewhere around 90-110 games.

Captain Hook
04-29-2010, 01:26 AM
I think Hanigan is a fine guy to have as part of a catching tandem and I want him playing more often than Hernandez but catching is a very physically demanding position and I think he'll do best if he plays somewhere around 90-110 games.

That's fine but play Hanigan until he has a bad night.He goes 2-5, 3-4 and so on only to find himself sitting on the bench the next night.Doesn't make any sense to me.

Will M
04-29-2010, 02:23 AM
I don't get why a 97 OPS+ from a catcher is something to scoff at? Especially from a guy universally regarded as a solid defensive catcher (we could debate exactly how good he is all day but about everyone agrees he's average or better).

an OPS+ of 97 from a solid defensive catcher is very very good. just about any team in baseball would be happy with that.

Ron Madden
04-29-2010, 04:03 AM
I think Hanigan is a fine guy to have as part of a catching tandem and I want him playing more often than Hernandez but catching is a very physically demanding position and I think he'll do best if he plays somewhere around 90-110 games.


I agree with Pedro here but I also believe I'd play the hot hand until it cools.

Right now Hanigan is that hot hand.

mth123
04-29-2010, 06:33 AM
I agree with Pedro here but I also believe I'd play the hot hand until it cools.

Right now Hanigan is that hot hand.

I think along those lines as well.

nate
04-29-2010, 11:37 AM
I scoff only because so many want to trumpet his on base skills without looking at the drag on his offense, the lack of power... which is fine, but seriously he's not Mike Piazza.


Catchers are not about hitting,

So which is it?

Hernandez isn't Mike Piazza either. The Reds have _some_ boppers with Rolen, Votto, Gomes and Bruce. What they don't have is guys who get on base (well, they do, but only 2 out the 4 are starters.)

If you can get SLG or OBP with a catcher who plays good defense, take it. If you can get both, start saving your pennies because that's one of them there, "good things."

But I think you knew that.

:cool:

flyer85
04-29-2010, 11:40 AM
splitting up the time about 50/50 would likely be a good idea.

TRF
04-29-2010, 11:42 AM
splitting up the time about 50/50 would likely be a good idea.

prior to yesterday's game, over the previous seven games, Hanigan had 11 AB's, Hernandez 10.

I'm thinking they are splitting time 50/50.

westofyou
04-29-2010, 11:49 AM
So which is it?

Hernandez isn't Mike Piazza either. The Reds have _some_ boppers with Rolen, Votto, Gomes and Bruce. What they don't have is guys who get on base (well, they do, but only 2 out the 4 are starters.)

If you can get SLG or OBP with a catcher who plays good defense, take it. If you can get both, start saving your pennies because that's one of them there, "good things."

But I think you knew that.

:cool:


You're right.. I did know that!!

Chart of the day, last 4 seasons all catchers with at least 250 ab's



CAREER
2006-2009
C
OBA vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
SLG vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RUNS CREATED/GAME vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
SECONDARY AVERAGE vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
AT BATS displayed only--not a sorting criteria

TOTAL AVERAGE TA OBA SLG RC/G SEC AB
1 Joe Mauer .935 .096 .099 3.53 .088 1986
2 Jorge Posada .905 .065 .109 2.80 .120 1522
3 Mike Napoli .863 .035 .095 1.96 .164 1096
4 Brian McCann .830 .034 .110 1.97 .079 1943
5 Chris Iannetta .820 .038 .053 1.51 .129 896
6 Victor Martinez .807 .053 .069 1.85 .050 1988
7 Mike Piazza .793 .014 .088 1.23 .074 399
8 David Ross .775 .009 .064 0.83 .143 828
9 Geovany Soto .775 .026 .070 1.26 .093 904
10 Kelly Shoppach .758 .009 .062 0.82 .077 894
11 John Baker .749 .042 .030 1.19 .029 570
12 Chris Snyder .747 .022 .030 0.65 .099 1009
13 Russell Martin .743 .045 .011 0.92 .063 2013
14 Ryan Doumit .731 .011 .076 1.07 .010 711
15 Miguel Montero .726 .011 .051 0.95 .037 839
16 Gregg Zaun .723 .025 .017 0.62 .074 1128
17 Ramon Castro .714 -.009 .052 0.59 .065 568
18 Jason Varitek .683 .008 -.004 0.08 .071 1587
19 Ramon Hernandez .682 .006 .018 0.38 .012 1615
20 Josh Bard .669 .020 .002 0.40 .011 1090
21 Chris Coste .666 .006 .020 0.46 -.024 806
22 Michael Barrett .662 -.005 .028 0.21 .011 831
23 Carlos Ruiz .657 .015 -.014 -.10 .037 1085
24 Javier Valentin .654 .000 .013 0.25 -.004 558
25 Bengie Molina .649 -.017 .050 0.13 -.031 1951
26 Kurt Suzuki .647 .007 .007 0.18 -.027 1313
27 Ryan Hanigan .645 .040 -.053 0.05 -.024 346
28 John Buck .642 -.018 .012 -.32 .035 1274
29 A.J. Pierzynski .639 -.001 .023 0.16 -.050 2019
30 Brandon Inge .636 -.020 -.018 -.45 .069 347
31 Jesus Flores .632 -.008 .016 0.08 -.015 574
32 Nick Hundley .631 -.025 -.007 -.14 .008 454
33 Miguel Olivo .631 -.043 .045 -.37 .003 1578
34 Ronny Paulino .626 .009 -.010 -.04 -.033 1256
35 Kenji Johjima .620 -.012 .013 -.16 -.042 1609
36 Jarrod Saltalamacchia .619 -.001 -.014 -.12 -.006 622
37 Paul Lo Duca .619 .009 -.012 -.03 -.068 1130
38 Yorvit Torrealba .612 -.006 -.002 -.47 -.015 1068
39 Rod Barajas .611 -.034 .008 -.51 -.008 1244
40 Damian Miller .609 -.012 -.030 -.69 -.006 517
41 Ivan Rodriguez .607 -.016 .014 -.31 -.047 1872
42 Gerald Laird .606 -.014 -.022 -.36 -.022 1407
43 Henry Blanco .596 -.020 -.016 -.60 -.023 619
44 Yadier Molina .594 .011 -.030 -.46 -.048 1695
45 Johnny Estrada .594 -.018 .007 -.30 -.074 909
46 Brian Schneider .585 .000 -.056 -.69 -.016 1323
47 Matt Treanor .582 .000 -.069 -.52 -.036 547
48 Jason Kendall .577 .010 -.076 -.53 -.063 1986
49 Dioner Navarro .570 -.015 -.033 -.77 -.033 1459
50 Mike Redmond .562 .015 -.044 -.42 -.119 715
51 Eliezer Alfonzo .552 -.055 -.014 -1.14 -.047 475
52 Jason LaRue .552 -.037 -.074 -1.42 .002 628
53 Brad Ausmus .534 -.010 -.093 -1.23 -.047 1099
54 Jeff Mathis .528 -.046 -.072 -1.34 -.008 746
55 Toby Hall .502 -.048 -.051 -1.25 -.089 521
56 Humberto Quintero .491 -.040 -.062 -1.54 -.099 399
57 Jose Molina .487 -.050 -.069 -1.56 -.084 822
58 Koyie Hill .485 -.041 -.095 -1.73 -.051 367
59 Paul Bako .481 -.035 -.102 -1.60 -.052 724
60 Wil Nieves .474 -.029 -.090 -1.46 -.106 467

nate
04-29-2010, 12:00 PM
You're right.. I did know that!!

Chart of the day, last 4 seasons all catchers with at least 250 ab's



That chart would seem to confirm my earlier statement that Hanigan is a much better on-base man than Hernandez. Hanigan is an out-avoider and Hernandez is a "slugger" (I use the term very generously in this regard.) I also said that I believe Hanigan has a superior glove (when using "my eyes") and that the Reds, as constructed, need fewer out-bleeders.

As for the intangibles of Spanish-speaking and being a "field captain," that's great but I believe there's only one pitcher who struggles with English currently on the team and I'm fine with Hernandez catching him.

I would settle for Hanigan simply playing more often and hitting higher in the lineup. If he can't do it, then he can't but he hasn't exactly been given Edwin Encarnacion levels of patience to show that he can't.

But you knew...

:cool:

Spring~Fields
04-29-2010, 12:00 PM
prior to yesterday's game, over the previous seven games, Hanigan had 11 AB's, Hernandez 10.

I'm thinking they are splitting time 50/50.


NAME TPA BA OBP SLG OPS
B. Phillips 92 .210 .297 .346 .642
Joey Votto 90 .280 .389 .480 .869
O. Cabrera 84 .253 .286 .373 .659
Jay Bruce 82 .222 .305 .417 .722
Drew Stubbs 76 .172 .289 .266 .555
Scott Rolen 70 .258 .343 .548 .891
Jonny Gomes 62 .218 .258 .382 .640
R. Hernandez 50 .262 .380 .333 .713
C. Dickerson 43 .238 .256 .310 .565
Ryan Hanigan 34 .483 .559 .690 1.248
Paul Janish 19 .353 .421 .706 1.127
Laynce Nix 19 .188 .278 .188 .465
Miguel Cairo 18 .188 .278 .188 .465

TRF
04-29-2010, 12:13 PM
NAME TPA BA OBP SLG OPS
B. Phillips 92 .210 .297 .346 .642
Joey Votto 90 .280 .389 .480 .869
O. Cabrera 84 .253 .286 .373 .659
Jay Bruce 82 .222 .305 .417 .722
Drew Stubbs 76 .172 .289 .266 .555
Scott Rolen 70 .258 .343 .548 .891
Jonny Gomes 62 .218 .258 .382 .640
R. Hernandez 50 .262 .380 .333 .713
C. Dickerson 43 .238 .256 .310 .565
Ryan Hanigan 34 .483 .559 .690 1.248
Paul Janish 19 .353 .421 .706 1.127
Laynce Nix 19 .188 .278 .188 .465
Miguel Cairo 18 .188 .278 .188 .465


16 PA's. That's the difference? 4 games?

hand. wringing.

westofyou
04-29-2010, 01:08 PM
That chart would seem to confirm my earlier statement that Hanigan is a much better on-base man than Hernandez. Hanigan is an out-avoider and Hernandez is a "slugger" (I use the term very generously in this regard.) I also said that I believe Hanigan has a superior glove (when using "my eyes") and that the Reds, as constructed, need fewer out-bleeders.

As for the intangibles of Spanish-speaking and being a "field captain," that's great but I believe there's only one pitcher who struggles with English currently on the team and I'm fine with Hernandez catching him.

I would settle for Hanigan simply playing more often and hitting higher in the lineup. If he can't do it, then he can't but he hasn't exactly been given Edwin Encarnacion levels of patience to show that he can't.

But you knew...

:cool:

I did know that!

hebroncougar
04-29-2010, 01:17 PM
From Lance's site.................

From Mike, one of our posters on Redleg Nation....
ERA
4.30 for Harang when Hanigan is catching in his career (20 G, 3.9 SO/BB ratio)
5.49 for Harang when Hernandez is catching in his career (25 G, 1.9 SO/BB ratio)
That's night and day and not a small sample size
Hmm....these #s are curious.....
4.09 ERA for Arroyo when Hanigan catches (35 G!)
6.38 ERA for Arroyo when Hernandez catches (4 G)
Huh? look what I found
3.79 ERA for Cueto when Hanigan catches....3.79?? That?s awesome! (14 G)
4.83 ERA for Cueto when Hernandez catches (18 G)

nate
04-29-2010, 01:31 PM
From Lance's site.................

From Mike, one of our posters on Redleg Nation....
ERA
4.30 for Harang when Hanigan is catching in his career (20 G, 3.9 SO/BB ratio)
5.49 for Harang when Hernandez is catching in his career (25 G, 1.9 SO/BB ratio)
That's night and day and not a small sample size
Hmm....these #s are curious.....
4.09 ERA for Arroyo when Hanigan catches (35 G!)
6.38 ERA for Arroyo when Hernandez catches (4 G)
Huh? look what I found
3.79 ERA for Cueto when Hanigan catches....3.79?? That?s awesome! (14 G)
4.83 ERA for Cueto when Hernandez catches (18 G)

I don't buy into catcher ERA.

_Sir_Charles_
04-29-2010, 01:43 PM
16 PA's. That's the difference? 4 games?

hand. wringing.

Well, IMO it's more like 8 games because from where I'm sitting those PA's should be reversed...not equaled out. Yes, it's splitting hairs somewhat, but sooner or later those hairs add up to a full head of hair. :D


I don't buy into catcher ERA.

I don't either, but when added onto the pile of stuff already in Ryan's favor...

westofyou
04-29-2010, 01:56 PM
I don't either, but when added onto the pile of stuff already in Ryan's favor...

Mmmmm I like that.... I don't believe it unless I can use it to prove the point I'm trying to make.

Checkmate!

Spring~Fields
04-29-2010, 02:07 PM
16 PA's. That's the difference? 4 games?

hand. wringing.

What's the significance of AB or PA? What does it lead to determining?



R. Hernandez .262 .380 .333 .713
Ryan Hanigan .483 .559 .690 1.248


I think we should leave the catching, CF, LF and SS up to the one that makes out the lineups. He'll know what to do if he is given the productive talent. If not, it won't make any difference anyway. In September/October.

_Sir_Charles_
04-29-2010, 02:35 PM
Mmmmm I like that.... I don't believe it unless I can use it to prove the point I'm trying to make.

Checkmate!

LOL. I think you see what I'm trying to say. The stat probably has SOME validity...just not as much as some people think. And it doesn't change my opinion in one way or another. Simply more fuel for the fire I guess.

TRF
04-29-2010, 02:37 PM
What's the significance of AB or PA? What does it lead to determining?



R. Hernandez .262 .380 .333 .713
Ryan Hanigan .483 .559 .690 1.248


I think we should leave the catching, CF, LF and SS up to the one that makes out the lineups. He'll know what to do if he is given the productive talent. If not, it won't make any difference anyway. In September/October.

then what do we talk about? Tomato gardens?

Spring~Fields
04-29-2010, 02:38 PM
then what do we talk about? Tomato gardens?

:)

nate
04-29-2010, 02:48 PM
I don't either, but when added onto the pile of stuff already in Ryan's favor...

Catcher ERA is a pile alright.

:cool:

RedsManRick
04-29-2010, 03:33 PM
Hanigan batting 8th again tonight. Like to see the playing time, but it would be nice if Dusty could recognize the value in his OBP.

SMcGavin
04-29-2010, 04:21 PM
Ramon Hernandez had a very good season four years ago. I don't think it's terribly relevant to the choices the Reds make today though. Take out that 2006 season and the data will be a little bit different. Hernandez's slugging percentage from 2007-present is .385, Hanigan's is .368. Hanigan may be a judy hitter, but so is present-day Ramon.

At any rate, I'm not arguing Ramon's presence on the roster. He's an OK catcher. Supposedly a good clubhouse influence. No problem. But his career arc is dropping while Hanigan's near his peak, and I think Ryan has passed him. I'd still be fine with Hernandez catching 50-60 games this year (and it can be every night Cueto throws if that makes Johnny more comfortable).






CAREER
2006-2009
C
OBA vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
SLG vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RUNS CREATED/GAME vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
SECONDARY AVERAGE vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
AT BATS displayed only--not a sorting criteria

TOTAL AVERAGE TA OBA SLG RC/G SEC AB
1 Joe Mauer .935 .096 .099 3.53 .088 1986
2 Jorge Posada .905 .065 .109 2.80 .120 1522
3 Mike Napoli .863 .035 .095 1.96 .164 1096
4 Brian McCann .830 .034 .110 1.97 .079 1943
5 Chris Iannetta .820 .038 .053 1.51 .129 896
6 Victor Martinez .807 .053 .069 1.85 .050 1988
7 Mike Piazza .793 .014 .088 1.23 .074 399
8 David Ross .775 .009 .064 0.83 .143 828
9 Geovany Soto .775 .026 .070 1.26 .093 904
10 Kelly Shoppach .758 .009 .062 0.82 .077 894
11 John Baker .749 .042 .030 1.19 .029 570
12 Chris Snyder .747 .022 .030 0.65 .099 1009
13 Russell Martin .743 .045 .011 0.92 .063 2013
14 Ryan Doumit .731 .011 .076 1.07 .010 711
15 Miguel Montero .726 .011 .051 0.95 .037 839
16 Gregg Zaun .723 .025 .017 0.62 .074 1128
17 Ramon Castro .714 -.009 .052 0.59 .065 568
18 Jason Varitek .683 .008 -.004 0.08 .071 1587
19 Ramon Hernandez .682 .006 .018 0.38 .012 1615
20 Josh Bard .669 .020 .002 0.40 .011 1090
21 Chris Coste .666 .006 .020 0.46 -.024 806
22 Michael Barrett .662 -.005 .028 0.21 .011 831
23 Carlos Ruiz .657 .015 -.014 -.10 .037 1085
24 Javier Valentin .654 .000 .013 0.25 -.004 558
25 Bengie Molina .649 -.017 .050 0.13 -.031 1951
26 Kurt Suzuki .647 .007 .007 0.18 -.027 1313
27 Ryan Hanigan .645 .040 -.053 0.05 -.024 346
28 John Buck .642 -.018 .012 -.32 .035 1274
29 A.J. Pierzynski .639 -.001 .023 0.16 -.050 2019
30 Brandon Inge .636 -.020 -.018 -.45 .069 347
31 Jesus Flores .632 -.008 .016 0.08 -.015 574
32 Nick Hundley .631 -.025 -.007 -.14 .008 454
33 Miguel Olivo .631 -.043 .045 -.37 .003 1578
34 Ronny Paulino .626 .009 -.010 -.04 -.033 1256
35 Kenji Johjima .620 -.012 .013 -.16 -.042 1609
36 Jarrod Saltalamacchia .619 -.001 -.014 -.12 -.006 622
37 Paul Lo Duca .619 .009 -.012 -.03 -.068 1130
38 Yorvit Torrealba .612 -.006 -.002 -.47 -.015 1068
39 Rod Barajas .611 -.034 .008 -.51 -.008 1244
40 Damian Miller .609 -.012 -.030 -.69 -.006 517
41 Ivan Rodriguez .607 -.016 .014 -.31 -.047 1872
42 Gerald Laird .606 -.014 -.022 -.36 -.022 1407
43 Henry Blanco .596 -.020 -.016 -.60 -.023 619
44 Yadier Molina .594 .011 -.030 -.46 -.048 1695
45 Johnny Estrada .594 -.018 .007 -.30 -.074 909
46 Brian Schneider .585 .000 -.056 -.69 -.016 1323
47 Matt Treanor .582 .000 -.069 -.52 -.036 547
48 Jason Kendall .577 .010 -.076 -.53 -.063 1986
49 Dioner Navarro .570 -.015 -.033 -.77 -.033 1459
50 Mike Redmond .562 .015 -.044 -.42 -.119 715
51 Eliezer Alfonzo .552 -.055 -.014 -1.14 -.047 475
52 Jason LaRue .552 -.037 -.074 -1.42 .002 628
53 Brad Ausmus .534 -.010 -.093 -1.23 -.047 1099
54 Jeff Mathis .528 -.046 -.072 -1.34 -.008 746
55 Toby Hall .502 -.048 -.051 -1.25 -.089 521
56 Humberto Quintero .491 -.040 -.062 -1.54 -.099 399
57 Jose Molina .487 -.050 -.069 -1.56 -.084 822
58 Koyie Hill .485 -.041 -.095 -1.73 -.051 367
59 Paul Bako .481 -.035 -.102 -1.60 -.052 724
60 Wil Nieves .474 -.029 -.090 -1.46 -.106 467

WebScorpion
04-30-2010, 01:41 PM
then what do we talk about? Tomato gardens?

Hey, I'm growing one of those upside down tomato plants this year... I'll keep you posted on how it goes! :D

I think Shooter kind of hit on my feelings on our current catcher tandem. Hernandez is still a good catcher but his skills are on the downward side of his curve. Hanigan appears to be at, or nearing, his peak. While his peak may never be as high as Ramon's WAS, I feel like 2010 Hanigan gives us more total value than the 2010 version of Ramon. I'd like to see Hanigan progress closer to a 60/40 time split. That's my http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-forum/2c.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

RedsManRick
04-30-2010, 01:56 PM
I don't buy into catcher ERA.

I don't either generally. But if you're controlling for the starter, my only real remaining concern is if the are facing comparable competition. If Dusty believes Hanigan's bat is significantly weaker, it's possible he tends to play him when facing weaker offenses. This is a non-trivial question.

The real issue is that I think Hanigan is likely to be the more productive offensive player this year. Combine that with the clear defensive advantage and the fact that he'll be here next year and Ramon (hopefully won't, and it's a pretty easy case to make.

lollipopcurve
04-30-2010, 03:55 PM
They should split time. Catchers get beat up, like running backs.

TheNext44
04-30-2010, 04:02 PM
A SD poster named Peaches on Chat last night said that Hanigan had a hand injury the end of last season, and got it fixed in the offseason. Said it was why he slumped so bad.

Anyone else heard about this? Just curious.

Big Klu
05-01-2010, 10:50 PM
They should split time. Catchers get beat up, like running backs.

Exactly. Both catchers are going to get plenty of playing time. The days of Lou Piniella sending Joe Oliver to the post 137 times (like he did in 1992) are over.

OnBaseMachine
05-09-2010, 01:20 PM
From John Fay's blog:


Hanigan enters Sunday with 15 RBI this season, after having 11 RBI all last year. What is the difference between the 2009 and 2010 Hanigan?

“Number one, he looks stronger,” manager Dusty Baker said. “The ball’s jumping off his bat better than it was last year.”

Hanigan, 29, said that is no coincidence. He said he worked hard in the offseason, adjusted his swing and also gained between five and seven pounds. He is listed at 6 feet and 201 pounds.

“My swing feels good,” Hanigan said. “I got a little more rhythm in my swing. My hands are working, and they’re loose. Having that rhythm allows the bat head to release pretty good for me.”


http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/05/09/of-hanigans-stick-bruces-arm-stubbs-legs/

edabbs44
05-09-2010, 01:23 PM
Good to see Dusty acknowledging that he is producing so far.

westofyou
05-09-2010, 01:26 PM
Exactly. Both catchers are going to get plenty of playing time. The days of Lou Piniella sending Joe Oliver to the post 137 times (like he did in 1992) are over.

Except in St Louis.


T. LOUIS CARDINALS
SEASON
2008-2009
C

AT BATS YEAR AB
1 Yadier Molina 2009 481
2 Yadier Molina 2008 444
3 Jason LaRue 2008 164
4 Jason LaRue 2009 104
5 Mark Johnson 2008 17
6 Matt Pagnozzi 2009 3

GAMES YEAR G
1 Yadier Molina 2009 140
2 Yadier Molina 2008 124
3 Jason LaRue 2008 61
4 Jason LaRue 2009 51
5 Mark Johnson 2008 10
6 Matt Pagnozzi 2009 6

Big Klu
05-09-2010, 02:08 PM
Except in St Louis.


T. LOUIS CARDINALS
SEASON
2008-2009
C

AT BATS YEAR AB
1 Yadier Molina 2009 481
2 Yadier Molina 2008 444
3 Jason LaRue 2008 164
4 Jason LaRue 2009 104
5 Mark Johnson 2008 17
6 Matt Pagnozzi 2009 3

GAMES YEAR G
1 Yadier Molina 2009 140
2 Yadier Molina 2008 124
3 Jason LaRue 2008 61
4 Jason LaRue 2009 51
5 Mark Johnson 2008 10
6 Matt Pagnozzi 2009 6


I meant here in Cincinnati, but your point is valid. I believe that LaRussa will burn Molina out sooner rather than later at that rate.

RedsManRick
05-09-2010, 02:10 PM
Good to see Hanigan's great performance rewarded with another day off.

Big Klu
05-09-2010, 02:13 PM
Good to see Hanigan's great performance rewarded with another day off.

It is common practice to start a different catcher in a day game following a night game.

Both Hanigan and Hernandez are going to get plenty of playing time. Neither is going to get as much as their supporters think they should get.

westofyou
05-09-2010, 02:16 PM
Good to see Hanigan's great performance rewarded with another day off.

I'd venture (without checking) that Dusty doesn't prefer the same catcher on a day game after a night contest. At least that's the vibe I'm getting.

edabbs44
05-09-2010, 02:31 PM
It is common practice to start a different catcher in a day game following a night game.

Both Hanigan and Hernandez are going to get plenty of playing time. Neither is going to get as much as their supporters think they should get.

Yep yep.

Tom Servo
05-09-2010, 05:58 PM
Hanigan's been great and I think Ramon deserves some credit as well. So far I've been thrilled with our production from them.

Ron Madden
05-09-2010, 06:06 PM
Hanigan's been great and I think Ramon deserves some credit as well. So far I've been thrilled with our production from them.

Yep, I'd still like to see Hanigan start more games than Hernandez.

Will M
05-09-2010, 06:07 PM
Hanigan's been great and I think Ramon deserves some credit as well. So far I've been thrilled with our production from them.

prior to today's game Ramon's OPS+ was 87. while this would be poor for a corner outfielder its not bad for a catcher who can play defense.
i think Ramon is ok. i agree with others that Ryan should get more starts but i am not ready to make him the everyday catcher. a 50/50 split would keep them both fresh. if Ryan keeps up his torrid pace then obviously he would earn even more playing time.

i made a post a while back asking if Walt made a mistake bringing Ramon back for $2M. were he to play 100-120 games, play good defense & have an OPS+ of 87 that would be well worth $2M in today's market.

TheNext44
05-09-2010, 06:38 PM
I think going forward, we are likely going to see Hanigan catch Arroyo and Harang, Hernandez catch Cueto, with Bailey and Leake caught by whoever is best rested.

TheNext44
05-09-2010, 06:40 PM
prior to today's game Ramon's OPS+ was 87. while this would be poor for a corner outfielder its not bad for a catcher who can play defense.
i think Ramon is ok. i agree with others that Ryan should get more starts but i am not ready to make him the everyday catcher. a 50/50 split would keep them both fresh. if Ryan keeps up his torrid pace then obviously he would earn even more playing time.

i made a post a while back asking if Walt made a mistake bringing Ramon back for $2M. were he to play 100-120 games, play good defense & have an OPS+ of 87 that would be well worth $2M in today's market.

Does that include blocking balls in the dirt? :D

JK, I agree completely with your assessment, but just would like to see Ramon improve in that area.

TheNext44
05-09-2010, 09:44 PM
I have to think that the fact that the Reds only have two catchers on the 25 man roster is why Baker didn't pinch run for Razor in the 8th today. He really doesn't like to remove his starting catcher, unless he has to.

Maybe the Reds should call up Wilkin Castillo just so Baker can feel more comfortable switching out Razor and Hanigan. He can't be worse than Cairo.

I know he's Chapman's catcher, but I think the Reds can find a Spanish speaking catcher to catch Chapman in AAA if that is really so important.

Will M
05-09-2010, 09:52 PM
I have to think that the fact that the Reds only have two catchers on the 25 man roster is why Baker didn't pinch run for Razor in the 8th today. He really doesn't like to remove his starting catcher, unless he has to.

Maybe the Reds should call up Wilkin Castillo just so Baker can feel more comfortable switching out Razor and Hanigan. He can't be worse than Cairo.

I know he's Chapman's catcher, but I think the Reds can find a Spanish speaking catcher to catch Chapman in AAA if that is really so important.

perhaps. Dusty wouldn't be the first manager to subscribe to this logic.

i personally think this is kinda dumb. when was the last time you saw a catcher get injured and have to leave the game? it would be pretty bad luck to pinch run for Ramon, have Ryan catch & then have Ryan get hurt.
It seems the odds of a good outcome via a speedy pinch runner outweigh the odds of a bad outcome (Ryan getting hurt & the team being left with somebody like Votto behind the plate)

Captain Hook
05-09-2010, 11:00 PM
I have to think that the fact that the Reds only have two catchers on the 25 man roster is why Baker didn't pinch run for Razor in the 8th today. He really doesn't like to remove his starting catcher, unless he has to.

Maybe the Reds should call up Wilkin Castillo just so Baker can feel more comfortable switching out Razor and Hanigan. He can't be worse than Cairo.

I know he's Chapman's catcher, but I think the Reds can find a Spanish speaking catcher to catch Chapman in AAA if that is really so important.

I think this is a great idea.Castillo or Cairo,who cares?But if having Castillo sitting on the bench frees up Hernandez or Hanigan to be freely used as a pinch hitter the team is improved.Plus Cairo would be gone.I see no down side with doing this.

RedsManRick
05-09-2010, 11:07 PM
I wonder who the current emergency 3rd catcher is right now? Cairo? Janish? Votto?

Big Klu
05-09-2010, 11:08 PM
I have to think that the fact that the Reds only have two catchers on the 25 man roster is why Baker didn't pinch run for Razor in the 8th today. He really doesn't like to remove his starting catcher, unless he has to.

Maybe the Reds should call up Wilkin Castillo just so Baker can feel more comfortable switching out Razor and Hanigan. He can't be worse than Cairo.

I know he's Chapman's catcher, but I think the Reds can find a Spanish speaking catcher to catch Chapman in AAA if that is really so important.

It's not just that Castillo can speak Spanish--it's that he is the only catcher Chapman has worked with so far in professional baseball. There is a comfort level between them. He's Crash Davis to Chapman's Nuke LaLoosh. Eventually Aroldis will have to be weaned off him, but not yet.

Captain Hook
05-09-2010, 11:46 PM
It's not just that Castillo can speak Spanish--it's that he is the only catcher Chapman has worked with so far in professional baseball. There is a comfort level between them. He's Crash Davis to Chapman's Nuke LaLoosh. Eventually Aroldis will have to be weaned off him, but not yet.

I can live with this for now but if the Reds are still hanging around when the rosters are expanded and Hanigan and Razor are both still hitting Castillo has to be called up.

If Chapman is called up before that then bring Castillo up with him but I don't think you can let him play every 5th game with Hernandez and Hanigan still on the team.The pacifier will have to be taken away.

reds44
05-10-2010, 05:34 AM
If Castillo could hit at all, he'd be an amazing tool to have.