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REDblooded
04-20-2010, 01:42 PM
Can't believe this hasn't been discussed yet, as it was news last night, but there's a heavy rumor swirling right now that an NL pitcher who's a "semi-big name but not a star" is going to be suspended for 50 games for PED's... Arroyo's past comments have me a bit worried that it could be him... Pure speculation at this point, and hope it's not.

Gainesville Red
04-20-2010, 01:46 PM
Dear Bud,

Please spare my fantasy team. They're bad enough as it is.

Your friend,

GR.

P.S.: If you could also spare the Reds, I'd be grateful. They're bad enough as it is.

Ghosts of 1990
04-20-2010, 01:57 PM
Can't believe this hasn't been discussed yet, as it was news last night, but there's a heavy rumor swirling right now that an NL pitcher who's a "semi-big name but not a star" is going to be suspended for 50 games for PED's... Arroyo's past comments have me a bit worried that it could be him... Pure speculation at this point, and hope it's not.

Where is this being discussed is there a link? (I believe you just want to email it to a few friends)

Let the guessing games begin.

I'll throw a name in the hat. Edwin Jackson.

Gainesville Red
04-20-2010, 02:02 PM
http://http://deadspin.com/5520679/mlb-ped-suspension-imminent-submit-your-wild-speculation-pdq

Razor Shines
04-20-2010, 02:03 PM
I'd be psyched if it's Wainwright. Actually, probably not, even if the Cards lost Wainwright for 50 games that does nothing to help the Reds playoff chances.

HokieRed
04-20-2010, 02:09 PM
I'd be psyched if it's Wainwright. Actually, probably not, even if the Cards lost Wainwright for 50 games that does nothing to help the Reds playoff chances.

Surely Wainwright is a "star." Arguably the best NL pitcher last year.

REDblooded
04-20-2010, 02:10 PM
I've just been seeing it on Will Carroll's twitter feed since last night...

REDblooded
04-20-2010, 02:11 PM
Two names the StL forum I frequent are tossing around as their guesses is Arroyo and Harang... Once again, pure speculation, just interesting to see the view from the opposing side.

RBA
04-20-2010, 02:11 PM
http://http://deadspin.com/5520679/mlb-ped-suspension-imminent-submit-your-wild-speculation-pdq

You doubled httped it.

http://deadspin.com/5520679/mlb-ped-suspension-imminent-submit-your-wild-speculation-pdq

Razor Shines
04-20-2010, 02:12 PM
Surely Wainwright is a "star." Arguably the best NL pitcher last year.

I think as far as in terms of stardom, Wainwright falls into the category of "semi-big" not a "huge" name. Unless we're talking about number of letters, then Wainwright is probably out.

HokieRed
04-20-2010, 02:13 PM
Two names the StL forum I frequent are tossing around as their guesses is Arroyo and Harang... Once again, pure speculation, just interesting to see the view from the opposing side.

If it is one of these guys, does it mean anything for Dusty?

Ghosts of 1990
04-20-2010, 02:13 PM
Another link:

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/a-major-league-ped-suspension-is-imminent.html.php

I love my deadspin... but Hardball talk (Calcatera) is the way to go as far as a credible write-up

OnBaseMachine
04-20-2010, 02:14 PM
Two names the StL forum I frequent are tossing around as their guesses is Arroyo and Harang... Once again, pure speculation, just interesting to see the view from the opposing side.

It's kind of ironic that Cardinals fans would be pointing fingers at players on other teams. It could be Arroyo, who knows, but if I had to place a bet on it, my best guess would be it's a Cardinals player. Maybe Kyle Lohse?

Razor Shines
04-20-2010, 02:14 PM
Two names the StL forum I frequent are tossing around as their guesses is Arroyo and Harang... Once again, pure speculation, just interesting to see the view from the opposing side.

Yeah, another forum I have been on keeps throwing out Zambrano. I don't think anybody has any idea, they're just throwing out names of guys they hope it is.

Ghosts of 1990
04-20-2010, 02:14 PM
Two names the StL forum I frequent are tossing around as their guesses is Arroyo and Harang... Once again, pure speculation, just interesting to see the view from the opposing side.

I would say there's NO WAY it's Aaron Harang due to his character. It's not going to be a Red.

But I'll say this, Harang looks leaner. You can't tell on TV. I was right by him when he was warming up in the outfield on opening day and he LOOKS physically different. More lean and trim. I still would bet my next paycheck it's not Aaron.

OnBaseMachine
04-20-2010, 02:17 PM
Keith Law guessed it will be Ryan Franklin but it's already been speculated that whoever it is isn't a repeat offender, so that rules Franklin out.

HokieRed
04-20-2010, 02:18 PM
I think as far as in terms of stardom, Wainwright falls into the category of "semi-big" not a "huge" name. Unless we're talking about number of letters, then Wainwright is probably out.


2nd in votes for Cy Young last year, IIRC. I'd trade any two (perhaps 3) of our current starters for him.

Ghosts of 1990
04-20-2010, 02:18 PM
Yeah, another forum I have been on keeps throwing out Zambrano. I don't think anybody has any idea, they're just throwing out names of guys they hope it is.

See, I think Zambrano is too big of a name.

Billingsley?

At this point, speculation is running rampant and no one is picking guys from their own team.

Razor Shines
04-20-2010, 02:22 PM
2nd in votes for Cy Young last year, IIRC. I'd trade any two (perhaps 3) of our current starters for him.

Ok are we talking about how good of a pitcher he is or how famous he is? I'm not going to get in an argument with you about how good Adam Wainwright is, I know how good he is. I'm talking about casual fan name recognition, and my gosh this is stupid. I was only joking when I threw his name out there anyway.

Razor Shines
04-20-2010, 02:23 PM
See, I think Zambrano is too big of a name.

Billingsley?

At this point, speculation is running rampant and no one is picking guys from their own team.


Exactly. It's just a bunch of wishful thinking, that's why I threw out Wainwright.

REDblooded
04-20-2010, 02:23 PM
It's kind of ironic that Cardinals fans would be pointing fingers at players on other teams. It could be Arroyo, who knows, but if I had to place a bet on it, my best guess would be it's a Cardinals player. Maybe Kyle Lohse?

Keith Law threw out his guess as Ryan Franklin

edit: just saw OBM's post

REDblooded
04-20-2010, 02:24 PM
See, I think Zambrano is too big of a name.

Billingsley?

At this point, speculation is running rampant and no one is picking guys from their own team.

I don't think Zambrano qualifies as a "star" at this point... semi-big name yes, but not in the range of a Haren, Lincecum, Halladay...

Ghosts of 1990
04-20-2010, 02:26 PM
Okay fellas, here is my guess.

Chris Young, San Diego Pads. Final answer.

Not a star, but has had some nice years. Always hurt. On the DL currently maybe while stuff gets investigated.

REDblooded
04-20-2010, 02:27 PM
Okay fellas, here is my guess.

Chris Young, San Diego Pads. Final answer.

Not a star, but has had some nice years. Always hurt. On the DL currently maybe while stuff gets investigated.

That's why Cards fans suggested Harang... Doubt it due to the character, but who knows what happens to a guy when he falls fast and wants to get back to where he once was...

OnBaseMachine
04-20-2010, 02:27 PM
Keith Law threw out his guess as Ryan Franklin

edit: just saw OBM's post

Will Carroll doesn't think it's a repeat offender, so that would rule Franklin out.

westofyou
04-20-2010, 02:28 PM
If it is one of these guys, does it mean anything for Dusty?
Why would it?

REDblooded
04-20-2010, 02:29 PM
Why would it?

probably suggesting that it would be the second time he's been associated with a PED player...

Captain Hook
04-20-2010, 02:30 PM
While I'd think no one here really wants any current Red to be this mystery PED user I do wonder if Reds fans would really be that upset if Harang was suspended 50 games?

pedro
04-20-2010, 02:30 PM
Ryan Franklin?

JaxRed
04-20-2010, 02:31 PM
I don't think there's any chance it's Arroyo.

Razor Shines
04-20-2010, 02:31 PM
probably suggesting that it would be the second time he's been associated with a PED player...

Hasn't really made a difference in LaRussa's career.

westofyou
04-20-2010, 02:32 PM
probably suggesting that it would be the second time he's been associated with a PED player...

Well Jack mcKeon, Bob Boone, Ray Knight, Davey Johnson all dealt with some too... including Hal Morris.

I'd like to see the list of managers who didn't have aplayer who juiced in teh past 25 years.

Chip R
04-20-2010, 02:35 PM
probably suggesting that it would be the second time he's been associated with a PED player...


3rd if you count Sammy.

Tom Servo
04-20-2010, 02:36 PM
Clearly it will be Rodrigo Lopez.

Strikes Out Looking
04-20-2010, 02:38 PM
I'd be surprised if it is Harang. Arroyo wouldn't surprise me (but since he's been so vocal about that he takes supplements, I'd hope he'd be smarter.)

I also won't be surprised if it is not a Cardinal. Not because I don't think they are getting a little help, but I think they are getting help in avoiding detection. (Of course, I have no proof but let's just say I don't really want to talk about the past).

I also won't be surprised if it is a Latin ballplayer, my thinking merely being on the past incidents at the major league level. Thus, my most likely Red pitcher would be Johnny Cueto (even though I hope it's not him).

Humorously, Deadspin is telling readers to email Will Carroll with their speculation--filling up his gmail account.

westofyou
04-20-2010, 02:39 PM
If Will Carroll broke the story it always has the chance of being like his famous Pete Rose breaking news item, he has an itchy trigger finger

klw
04-20-2010, 02:39 PM
I don't think there's any chance it's Arroyo.

Well maybe he ran out of luck.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/reds/2009-08-12-arroyo-cover-unconcerned_N.htm


Bronson Arroyo reaches into his locker, pulls down a clear cellophane bag and slowly opens it.
He shakes out the contents like a kid on Halloween night. There are different-colored pills, powders, liquids, proteins, caffeine concentrates and ginseng, products such as creatine, Triflex and xelR8 found at local vitamin stores. Most of the products have not been approved by Major League Baseball for use by players, Arroyo says. Some of the items have the potential to trigger a positive test under baseball's performance-enhancing drug policy. Arroyo takes them anyway.


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Bronson-Arroyo-feels-lucky-still-takes-non-appr?urn=mlb,182758

REDblooded
04-20-2010, 02:43 PM
Yep KLW... Wouldn't surprise me at all... I thought it was funny a few weeks ago when I saw that a supplement that I took last summer was listed on the banned list for this season...

REDblooded
04-20-2010, 02:55 PM
Phenomenal.... We have a winner, and it's Edinson Volquez...

TRF
04-20-2010, 02:56 PM
My guess? Erik Bedard. Big enough name, but a second tier pitcher due to injuries.

Ghosts of 1990
04-20-2010, 02:57 PM
It's Edison Volquez

http://twitter.com/MoEgger1530/status/12531903828

TRF
04-20-2010, 02:57 PM
wait. It's really Volquez?

REDblooded
04-20-2010, 02:58 PM
wait. It's really Volquez?

yup

nate
04-20-2010, 02:58 PM
Ah, well that's unfortunate.

bucksfan2
04-20-2010, 02:59 PM
Ah, well that's unfortunate.

Is it really? He won't be able to pitch in the next 50 days. Does this suspension start while he is on the DL or does this start after he gets off the DL.

TRF
04-20-2010, 02:59 PM
source?

Cedric
04-20-2010, 02:59 PM
Any Dominican player that tests positive is just not shocking to me. They need to completely change the way the system works down there.

I don't give the benefit of the doubt to anyone with ties to the DR.

blumj
04-20-2010, 02:59 PM
http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman/status/12531828104

Ron Madden
04-20-2010, 03:00 PM
Damn.

edabbs44
04-20-2010, 03:00 PM
rotoworld


SI.com's Jon Heyman reports that Edinson Volquez has been suspended 50 games for testing positive for performance-enhancing drugs.

JaxRed
04-20-2010, 03:01 PM
Bring him off DL now !!! Seriously, he's now out for year

redsfan30
04-20-2010, 03:02 PM
Wow.

REDblooded
04-20-2010, 03:02 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/baseball/mlb/04/20/heyman.volquez/index.html

yab1112
04-20-2010, 03:03 PM
son of a...:angry: :bang:

Forgive my ignorance, but how does this work with regard to him being injured? When's the earliest he can be taken off the DL and start serving the suspension?

GoReds
04-20-2010, 03:08 PM
Wow, this year is starting off with a huge thud.

flyer85
04-20-2010, 03:08 PM
I guess that pretty much finishes his 2010 season

jmcclain19
04-20-2010, 03:09 PM
Well at least with the way the Reds are playing - Dusty won't have any more chances to ruin his arm further.

Cyclone792
04-20-2010, 03:10 PM
I wonder if Reds fans who have booed Bonds and McGwire will now come out to GABP and give Volquez the same treatment whenever he's able to return.

Or, I wonder if they'll feel differently toward a hometown guy who's quite a big piece to the future of this organization's rotation.

Reds Fanatic
04-20-2010, 03:10 PM
son of a...:angry: :bang:

Forgive my ignorance, but how does this work with regard to him being injured? When's the earliest he can be taken off the DL and start serving the suspension?
I am pretty sure the suspension would not start until he was off the DL. Now how you would prove he was healthy enough to go off the DL and start the suspension I don't know. But he was injured until approxiamately July and then add 50 games to that and you essentially would be to about September before he could return.

redsfandan
04-20-2010, 03:10 PM
Would the suspension affect his ability to pitch in the minors?

NJReds
04-20-2010, 03:11 PM
I am pretty sure the suspension would not start until he was off the DL. Now how you would prove he was healthy enough to go off the DL and start the suspension I don't know. But he was injured until approxiamately July and then add 50 games to that and you essentially would be to about September before he could return.

I guess his minor league rehab will take a little bit longer now.

durl
04-20-2010, 03:11 PM
I would ask "what could POSSIBLY happen next to this team???" but I'm really scared that I would actually find out.

pedro
04-20-2010, 03:12 PM
I have to wonder if the Reds knew this was coming and that is way they talked about him coming back off DL so early? Just speculation but theoretically couldn't they activate him from DL around all star break even if they didn't think he was really ready and let him finish rehab while on suspension.

I hate to say it but I'm not sure this happening and keeping him from being rushed back is a bad thing in the long run. With exception to the lingering doubt regarding whether his performance will suffer without the PED's.

TRF
04-20-2010, 03:13 PM
I never thought he should pitch this year anyway.

bring on 2011!

redsmetz
04-20-2010, 03:13 PM
In some ways, this could be a blessing in disguise. Many have said they felt it was better that he not pitch this season, so perhaps this allows him to come back fully and we don't have to worry about reinjuring it.

REDblooded
04-20-2010, 03:13 PM
Buddy of mine just hit me with a twitter feed (still waiting to find out who it was) that says "Apparently, Edinson Volquez can serve his 50-game susp. while on DL. So it may cost him only 50 games pay, and the #Reds nothing."

Caveat Emperor
04-20-2010, 03:13 PM
I actually laughed when I read this, because this organization has become a poster child for Murphy's Law.

REDblooded
04-20-2010, 03:15 PM
Update: it was Ed Price from Fanhouse/SI...

also: heard #volquez didn't test positive for a steroid but a ped similar to one manny had in his system #mlb #steroids #reds

OnBaseMachine
04-20-2010, 03:16 PM
Trying to speed up the recovery process?

yab1112
04-20-2010, 03:17 PM
I hate to say it but I'm not sure this happening and keeping him from being rushed back is a bad thing in the long run. With exception to the lingering doubt regarding whether his performance will suffer without the PED's.

That's the key to me.

Reds Fanatic
04-20-2010, 03:17 PM
This is from SI. Apparently the suspension does start now. It takes effect tomorrow even though he is on the DL.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/baseball/mlb/04/20/heyman.volquez/index.html?eref=BrkNews




By Jon Heyman, SI.com



Cincinnati Reds pitcher Edinson Volquez has failed a test for performance-enhancing drugs and will be suspended for 50 games, SI.com has learned.

An announcement is expected shortly. It is believed he failed the test during spring training. The suspension will take effect April 21.

Volquez went 4-2 with a 4.35 ERA for the Reds in 2009. He was an NL All-Star in 2008 but has not pitched yet this season

REDblooded
04-20-2010, 03:17 PM
So, evidently, all this effectively means is that the Reds don't have to pay him for 50 games... And he'll have to pee more often.

bucksfan2
04-20-2010, 03:18 PM
Trying to speed up the recovery process?

The PED that Manny tested positive for was a female hormone, Volquez isn't considering a sex change is he?????!!!!! ;););)

Reds Fanatic
04-20-2010, 03:19 PM
So 50 games from tomorrow would take you up to about July when he expected to be available anyway.

Cyclone792
04-20-2010, 03:21 PM
I wonder if Volquez will be on MLB Network for two hours tonight answering questions from Bob Costas on when and why he did it. And then I wonder if 1,500 sports writers and a nation of baseball fans will spend the next two weeks debating if his apology is sincere enough.

Ghosts of 1990
04-20-2010, 03:22 PM
http://twitter.com/ed_price/status/12532498965

Apparently, Edinson Volquez can serve his 50-game susp. while on DL. So it may cost him only 50 games pay, and the #Reds nothing.

HeatherC1212
04-20-2010, 03:23 PM
Random Question: Isn't the 50 game suspension the punishment for second time offenders? I thought the first time they just get a warning or something and then they get suspended if it's the second offense. :confused:

Wow, I wrote that up a while ago and just now read that it's Edinson. That's a surprise but it was probably some random thing to help him get better from his surgery.

yab1112
04-20-2010, 03:23 PM
From MLBTR (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/04/edinson-volquez-gets-50game-ped-suspensino.html):


It appears that even with the 50 games off, Volquez will still tally enough service time to be eligible for arbitration after the season.

Looks like that case is going to be easier than anticipated for the Reds.

edabbs44
04-20-2010, 03:23 PM
Random Question: Isn't the 50 game suspension the punishment for second time offenders? I thought the first time they just get a warning or something and then they get suspended if it's the second offense. :confused:

I think that's for amphedamines.

Cyclone792
04-20-2010, 03:23 PM
Random Question: Isn't the 50 game suspension the punishment for second time offenders? I thought the first time they just get a warning or something and then they get suspended if it's the second offense. :confused:

First offense is 50 games. Second offense is 100 games.

Third offense sends him to the land where Joe Jackson, Buck Weaver and Pete Rose reside.

CTA513
04-20-2010, 03:23 PM
Not really much of a suspension (outside of losing pay) if he can serve it while on the DL.

TheNext44
04-20-2010, 03:24 PM
I wonder if Reds fans who have booed Bonds and McGwire will now come out to GABP and give Volquez the same treatment whenever he's able to return.

Or, I wonder if they'll feel differently toward a hometown guy who's quite a big piece to the future of this organization's rotation.

I never booed anyone, but had some sharp words on about Bonds and McGwire to name a few PED users.

If it turns out Volquez used steriods or HGH, I'll have the same sharp words, and want him off the team. Period.

If he tested for something that could be used to speed up his healing process, but does not improve his game, (and there are plenty of those that are illegal as well, but in a different category that steroids) then I would be mad that he was that stupid, hope he has to spend the suspension after he comes off the DL, and think less of him, but still want him on the team.

At least that's my take on it.

top6
04-20-2010, 03:24 PM
First offense is 50 games. Second offense is 100 games.

Third offense sends him to the land where Joe Jackson, Buck Weaver and Pete Rose reside.

So Edison Volquez will be forced to sign autographs at a depressing store in Caesar's Palace????

Cyclone792
04-20-2010, 03:27 PM
I never booed anyone, but had some sharp words on about Bonds and McGwire to name a few PED users.

If it turns out Volquez used steriods or HGH, I'll have the same sharp words, and want him off the team. Period.

If he tested for something that could be used to speed up his healing process, but does not improve his game, (and there are plenty of those that are illegal as well, but in a different category that steroids) then I would be mad that he was that stupid, hope he has to spend the suspension after he comes off the DL, and think less of him, but still want him on the team.

At least that's my take on it.

I applaud you if you plan to hold Volquez to the same standard as the others. However, I also believe you'll be in a severe minority.

My guess is Joe Fan down at GABP who booed, cursed and called Bonds, McGwire, and others every name in the book will be standing up cheering wildly the first time Volquez throws up seven zeroes once returning to the Reds.

pedro
04-20-2010, 03:27 PM
If Volquez wasn't on PED's in 2008-2009 and was only taking them to heal faster then this actually works out pretty well for the Reds.

Reds Fanatic
04-20-2010, 03:27 PM
So basically he will lose about a third of his $445,000 salary for this year. It seems like a big hole in the drug policy to let someone serve a suspension while on the DL.

OnBaseMachine
04-20-2010, 03:27 PM
On an NBC board I saw where a couple people guessed it would be Volquez, and after seeing their reasoning, it made sense. I was hoping it wouldn't be him but deep down it made sense. Here's a guy coming off a major injury, the first of his career, and he's chomping at the bit to get back on the field. He probably thought it would help him recover quicker. It was a stupid thing to do, though. It sucks he did it but it doesn't change the way I look at him. He's still one of my favorite pitchers to watch.

membengal
04-20-2010, 03:28 PM
If Volquez wasn't on PED's and was only taking them to heal faster then this actually works out pretty well for the Reds.

Indeed.

Cyclone792
04-20-2010, 03:28 PM
So Edison Volquez will be forced to sign autographs at a depressing store in Caesar's Palace????

Pete's at least entertained enough by the assets his assistant carries with her, at least he was the day Joe Pos stopped by to visit him.

CTA513
04-20-2010, 03:28 PM
So basically he will lose about a third of his $445,000 salary for this year. It seems like a big hole in the drug policy to let someone serve a suspension while on the DL.

:thumbup:

Falls City Beer
04-20-2010, 03:29 PM
This is such a stupid dog and pony show anymore. I don't care.

membengal
04-20-2010, 03:29 PM
Cyclone, looking for consistency in how PED violators by fans and media are treated is a fool's game, you know that.

The sanction for identified users of PEDs at this point, in terms of the lasting scarlet S for steroids, is no Hall of Fame, judging by how McGwire's candidacy is being treated. We will have to see if that holds with Palmeiro, Bonds, and Clemens.

So, no Hall of Fame for Edinson.

Not that there was imminent danger of such...

edabbs44
04-20-2010, 03:30 PM
On an NBC board I saw where a couple people guessed it would be Volquez, and after seeing their reasoning, it made sense. I was hoping it wouldn't be him but deep down it made sense. Here's a guy coming off a major injury, the first of his career, and he's chomping at the bit to get back on the field. He probably thought it would help him recover quicker. It was a stupid thing to do, though. It sucks he did it but it doesn't change the way I look at him. He's still one of my favorite pitchers to watch.

We can try and rationalize and make it seem like he was trying to do the right thing, but he still broke the rules (and likely the law). He deserves what he gets.

OnBaseMachine
04-20-2010, 03:31 PM
From twitter:

heard #volquez didn't test positive for a steroid but a ped similar to one manny had in his system #mlb #steroids

edinson volquez or the reds has been suspended by mlb .. it wasnt a steroid .. some other type of ped im hearing .. story on nytimes.com

http://twitter.com/MichaelSSchmidt

Brutus
04-20-2010, 03:33 PM
Volquez. Ugh.

Cyclone792
04-20-2010, 03:34 PM
Cyclone, looking for consistency in how PED violators by fans and media are treated is a fool's game, you know that.

The sanction for identified users of PEDs at this point, in terms of the lasting scarlet S for steroids, is no Hall of Fame, judging by how McGwire's candidacy is being treated. We will have to see if that holds with Palmeiro, Bonds, and Clemens.

So, no Hall of Fame for Edinson.

Not that there was imminent danger of such...

It's a valid question, though, and this will just verify what I've always believed that fans will stick up for their own player's transgressions but will curse the hell out of a player if he plays for anybody else.

Not to mention this digs to a few deeper things, such as what sort of clubhouse impact could this have considering there is a whole pile of youth in that same clubhouse that Volquez resides in? And if the Giants supposedly got away with being a chemical lab during teh Dusty's days there, what could that say about the Reds' clubhouse now?

SirFelixCat
04-20-2010, 03:37 PM
I have to think this was a test during his rehab. I'd like to know when the test that he failed was administered. TBH, if it was post-surgery, meh, the guy is trying to come back as fast as possible. If it was prior to him getting hurt, that changes it, at least how I view it.

OnBaseMachine
04-20-2010, 03:37 PM
From Jerry Crasnick:

Edinson Volquez will be fined 50 games. He's making $445,000. By my calculations, that comes to about $137,000 in lost income.

http://twitter.com/jcrasnick

Caveat Emperor
04-20-2010, 03:37 PM
And if the Giants supposedly got away with being a chemical lab during teh Dusty's days there, what could that say about the Reds' clubhouse now?

It says Jay Bruce needs to stop being such a boy scout and start being a team player.

HeatherC1212
04-20-2010, 03:38 PM
Ahhh, okay. Thanks for clearing that up for me (suspension lengths).

LoganBuck
04-20-2010, 03:39 PM
So, evidently, all this effectively means is that the Reds don't have to pay him for 50 games... And he'll have to pee more often.

This.

Reds Fanatic
04-20-2010, 03:39 PM
I have to think this was a test during his rehab. I'd like to know when the test that he failed was administered. TBH, if it was post-surgery, meh, the guy is trying to come back as fast as possible. If it was prior to him getting hurt, that changes it, at least how I view it.
According to the SI article they believe it was during spring training. So I assume he took something to try to recover from the injury. Which is why it is a joke they let players do the suspension during being on the DL. Outside the salary loss the players are able to take PEDs to come back from an injury possibly sooner with no real punishment.

RichRed
04-20-2010, 03:41 PM
From Jerry Crasnick:

Edinson Volquez will be fined 50 games. He's making $445,000. By my calculations, that comes to about $137,000 in lost income.

http://twitter.com/jcrasnick

The Reds can use the $137K to go get that big bopper for LF now!

(Kidding.)

membengal
04-20-2010, 03:45 PM
It says Jay Bruce needs to stop being such a boy scout and start being a team player.

Clearly.

Cyclone792
04-20-2010, 03:45 PM
It says Jay Bruce needs to stop being such a boy scout and start being a team player.

I think you're on to something, CE. And while we're at it, Rolen's back needs to get healthy quickly too. There isn't a better way to do that ...

;)

Homer Bailey
04-20-2010, 03:47 PM
For those wondering, the female fertility drug that Manny took was to raise his epitestosterone level to match his testosterone level. One of the tests that the MLB performs is the comparison between the testosterone level and the epitestosterone level. Regular steroids raise your testosterone levels, while the female fertility drug that Manny was using was raising his epitestosterone level to (theory begins) mask his use of steroids (theory ends). If you use too much of the fertility drug, it can raise your epitestosterone level to an alarming rate, and can be detected by the drug test.

I think I'm remember that right. Same case for Volquez? We shall see.

nate
04-20-2010, 03:47 PM
Is it really? He won't be able to pitch in the next 50 days. Does this suspension start while he is on the DL or does this start after he gets off the DL.

Interestingly enough, it seems he can serve it on the DL.

So, just looking at the punitive measure in the abstract, that would seem pretty lame to me. A player on the DL doesn't miss any playing time for his transgression. They instead lose out on some bread (which should be donated to "Nate's bourbon fund" - it's for the children.) :cool:

As a Reds fan, I suppose it works out. It sounds like something non-steroid-ish. I don't know why they can't simultaneously break this news and tell us what the hell it is.

Oh well...on the bright side, the Reds will be on Baseball Tonight now!

:cool:

Spring~Fields
04-20-2010, 03:47 PM
I don’t understand. If you had major surgery, from a possible career ending injury.

Why aren’t you allowed to take whatever is legal by law?

If it is used to enhance the healing, recovery and rehab of the injury as long as one is not on an active MLB list?

Further, and that one is not playing with the substance in their system, and does not play in any official game of major league baseball with that substance in their system?

What other motivation would there be at this time other than recovery, healing and rehab? He certainly isn’t playing. How is he effecting the game of baseball when he is not playing?

I honestly don’t understand.

Chip R
04-20-2010, 03:47 PM
I applaud you if you plan to hold Volquez to the same standard as the others. However, I also believe you'll be in a severe minority.

My guess is Joe Fan down at GABP who booed, cursed and called Bonds, McGwire, and others every name in the book will be standing up cheering wildly the first time Volquez throws up seven zeroes once returning to the Reds.


"We root for laundry" - Jerry Seinfeld

westofyou
04-20-2010, 03:48 PM
I actually laughed when I read this, because this organization has become a poster child for Murphy's Law.

Actualy the finger pointing and the inability to think it might be a Red was even more amusing to me.

pedro
04-20-2010, 03:50 PM
I applaud you if you plan to hold Volquez to the same standard as the others. However, I also believe you'll be in a severe minority.

My guess is Joe Fan down at GABP who booed, cursed and called Bonds, McGwire, and others every name in the book will be standing up cheering wildly the first time Volquez throws up seven zeroes once returning to the Reds.

I think there is a difference between taking something to help you return from a major injury and taking something daily over the course of many years to prop up your performance while actually playing in games. Of course we really don't know at this point which group Volquez actually falls into.

Reds Fanatic
04-20-2010, 03:51 PM
I don’t understand. If you had major surgery, from a possible career ending injury.

Why aren’t you allowed to take whatever is legal by law?

If it is used to enhance the healing, recovery and rehab of the injury as long as one is not on an active MLB list?

Further, and that one is not playing with the substance in their system, and does not play in any official game of major league baseball with that substance in their system?

What other motivation would there be at this time other than recovery, healing and rehab? He certainly isn’t playing.

I honestly don’t understand.

When you are on the DL you are still an active MLB player. If MLB has a rule against a certain drug even though it may be legal under the law you can't take that drug.

vaticanplum
04-20-2010, 03:51 PM
This team is AMAZING.

TheNext44
04-20-2010, 03:52 PM
I applaud you if you plan to hold Volquez to the same standard as the others. However, I also believe you'll be in a severe minority.

My guess is Joe Fan down at GABP who booed, cursed and called Bonds, McGwire, and others every name in the book will be standing up cheering wildly the first time Volquez throws up seven zeroes once returning to the Reds.

The fact that McGwire got a standing ovation when he returned to StL is proof of that. What did PT Barnum say about underestimating the general public?

OnBaseMachine
04-20-2010, 03:53 PM
According to SI.com, Volquez tested positive for a performance-enhancing substance during spring training.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/04/20/edinson-volquez-suspended-50-games/

TRF
04-20-2010, 03:54 PM
Actualy the finger pointing and the inability to think it might be a Red was even more amusing to me.

well, there are a lot of teams, there really was a 1 in 30 chance it was a Red.

Funny, my reason for picking Bedard is probably the exact reason why it was Volquez.

Spring~Fields
04-20-2010, 03:55 PM
When you are on the DL you are still an active MLB player. If MLB has a rule against a certain drug even though it may be legal under the law you can't take that drug.

Ok, but, He certainly isn't effecting the integrity of a game or MLB, when he isn't playing and probably won't be for an entire year. Sigh!! Now if he actually played with a known substance, well, then that's clear.

George Anderson
04-20-2010, 03:55 PM
Volquez was traded from Texas for another drug user.

How ironic.

KronoRed
04-20-2010, 03:58 PM
I think there is a difference between taking something to help you return from a major injury and taking something daily over the course of many years to prop up your performance while actually playing in games. Of course we really don't know at this point which group Volquez actually falls into.

Call me cynical but I find it hard to believe he would have just now started using, he bounded back and forth from the minors for 3 years with the Rangers, could have been using then to try and stick.

But as you said, we don't know squat.

edabbs44
04-20-2010, 03:59 PM
Maybe he'll start posting on here under the name KeyMastur.

RedsManRick
04-20-2010, 03:59 PM
This sounds like a perfect case for teams to push their 60-day DL guys to take PEDs to speed recovery. You get the player back healthier and you don't have to pay him if gets caught!

pedro
04-20-2010, 04:00 PM
This sounds like a perfect case for teams to push their 60-day DL guys to take PEDs to speed recovery. You get the player back healthier and you don't have to pay him if gets caught!

My thoughts exactly.

OnBaseMachine
04-20-2010, 04:00 PM
Volquez said in a statement he received a prescription in the Dominican Republic as part of treatment to start a family with his wife. He said the drug was banned by Major League Baseball.

"As a result, I tested positive when I reported to spring training," he said. "Although I understand that I must accept responsibility for this mistake and have chosen not to challenge my suspension, I want to assure everyone that this was an isolated incident involving my genuine effort to treat a common medical issue."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5119303

Razor Shines
04-20-2010, 04:03 PM
So.....It's not Adam Wainwright then?

Spring~Fields
04-20-2010, 04:03 PM
This sounds like a perfect case for teams to push their 60-day DL guys to take PEDs to speed recovery. You get the player back healthier and you don't have to pay him if gets caught!

If it is exactly as we are getting it, it sounds like something he and his reps should appeal and challenge, under the circumstances that he is not even playing and whatever higher intellectual argument that they could within the spirit of that.

So what would have happened if he had not showed up to basically hang around and rehab at the facility during spring training?

Spring~Fields
04-20-2010, 04:10 PM
Volquez said in a statement he received a prescription in the Dominican Republic as part of treatment to start a family with his wife. He said the drug was banned by Major League Baseball.

"As a result, I tested positive when I reported to spring training," he said. "Although I understand that I must accept responsibility for this mistake and have chosen not to challenge my suspension, I want to assure everyone that this was an isolated incident involving my genuine effort to treat a common medical issue."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5119303

It matters what the genuine and real reason is that he chose not to challenge the suspension. Oh well.

Sea Ray
04-20-2010, 04:11 PM
So basically he will lose about a third of his $445,000 salary for this year. It seems like a big hole in the drug policy to let someone serve a suspension while on the DL.

Sure does. Why can he serve it while on the DL and a guy like the Mariners' pitcher Cliff Lee has to get off the DL before he can serve his 5 game suspension?

TRF
04-20-2010, 04:14 PM
Volquez said in a statement he received a prescription in the Dominican Republic as part of treatment to start a family with his wife. He said the drug was banned by Major League Baseball.

"As a result, I tested positive when I reported to spring training," he said. "Although I understand that I must accept responsibility for this mistake and have chosen not to challenge my suspension, I want to assure everyone that this was an isolated incident involving my genuine effort to treat a common medical issue."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5119303

Didn't Manny use the same line?

Brutus
04-20-2010, 04:19 PM
Didn't Manny use the same line?

It's PR 101.

TheNext44
04-20-2010, 04:21 PM
Didn't Manny use the same line?

I don't remember if he did, but if he did, it would have been hilarious. The drug Manny took was for female fertility , so he would have to argue that he was trying to get pregnant. lol

membengal
04-20-2010, 04:25 PM
This sounds like a perfect case for teams to push their 60-day DL guys to take PEDs to speed recovery. You get the player back healthier and you don't have to pay him if gets caught!

Yup.

It's a Michael Scott style win-win-win-win-win for the Reds on this one.

membengal
04-20-2010, 04:26 PM
Sure does. Why can he serve it while on the DL and a guy like the Mariners' pitcher Cliff Lee has to get off the DL before he can serve his 5 game suspension?

Actually, MLB has removed his suspension given his time on the DL to start the season. He will be able to pitch as soon as he is ready.

OnBaseMachine
04-20-2010, 04:28 PM
Sergio Mitre and Rafael Betancourt were on the DL when they served their PED suspensions.

Chip R
04-20-2010, 04:31 PM
Volquez said in a statement he received a prescription in the Dominican Republic as part of treatment to start a family with his wife. He said the drug was banned by Major League Baseball.

"As a result, I tested positive when I reported to spring training," he said. "Although I understand that I must accept responsibility for this mistake and have chosen not to challenge my suspension, I want to assure everyone that this was an isolated incident involving my genuine effort to treat a common medical issue."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5119303


"Oh, no! I took my wife's prescription!"

OnBaseMachine
04-20-2010, 04:32 PM
From Jinaz:

Lots of common male fertility drugs on MLB banned list: hCG, LH, FSH (probly), Clomiphene, Tamoxifen.
http://is.gd/bB558

http://twitter.com/jinazreds

reds44
04-20-2010, 04:32 PM
My heart dropped after hearing it, but once I found out that he can serve his suspension on the DL I really don't care. It sucks for Volquez because he's going to lose a lot of $, but other than that oh well.

Tom Servo
04-20-2010, 04:33 PM
My heart dropped after hearing it, but once I found out that he can serve his suspension on the DL I really don't care. It sucks for Volquez because he's going to lose a lot of $, but other than that oh well.
Basically this. At first I panicked, but ultimately it's nothing.

bucksfan2
04-20-2010, 04:33 PM
This sounds like a perfect case for teams to push their 60-day DL guys to take PEDs to speed recovery. You get the player back healthier and you don't have to pay him if gets caught!

Not exactly. The way I understand the rule is Volquez is to have no contact with the Reds organization. He can't use their facilities and is on his own for the next 50 days. So this suspension will in effect curtail any meaningful rehab that Volquez would do at any of the Reds facilities.

KronoRed
04-20-2010, 04:35 PM
This sounds like a perfect case for teams to push their 60-day DL guys to take PEDs to speed recovery. You get the player back healthier and you don't have to pay him if gets caught!

Hopefully MLB closes that loophole soon.

MikeS21
04-20-2010, 04:38 PM
Not exactly. The way I understand the rule is Volquez is to have no contact with the Reds organization. He can't use their facilities and is on his own for the next 50 days. So this suspension will in effect curtail any meaningful rehab that Volquez would do at any of the Reds facilities.
So he gets to spend a little quality time with the wife? :devil:

redsmetz
04-20-2010, 04:39 PM
From Jinaz:

Lots of common male fertility drugs on MLB banned list: hCG, LH, FSH (probly), Clomiphene, Tamoxifen.
http://is.gd/bB558

http://twitter.com/jinazreds

Is there a procedure in this type of situation? Submit the prescription to MLB? Although you would think that a player would know to have his doctor review what's on the allowable list.

It's possible Volquez's statement is just hooey, but it does make you wonder how this is supposed to take place.

reds44
04-20-2010, 04:40 PM
Not exactly. The way I understand the rule is Volquez is to have no contact with the Reds organization. He can't use their facilities and is on his own for the next 50 days. So this suspension will in effect curtail any meaningful rehab that Volquez would do at any of the Reds facilities.
Manny Ramirez played in AAA games while he was suspended, so I'm not exactly sure how true this is.

OnBaseMachine
04-20-2010, 04:40 PM
From John Fay:

Volquez says he tested positive for a medication prescribed to help conceive a child.

#Reds believe Volquez can continue to work out at the Goodyear during suspension.

http://twitter.com/johnfayman

ochre
04-20-2010, 04:41 PM
It's PR 101.
PR? I thought they are Dominican?




:cool:

OnBaseMachine
04-20-2010, 04:43 PM
Statement from Edinson Volquez:

“Prior to the conclusion of last season, my wife and I sought medical advice in Cincinnati with the hope of starting a family. As part of my consultation with the physician, I received certain prescribed medications to treat my condition. As a follow up to our original consultation, my wife and I visited another physician in our home city in the Dominican Republic this past off-season. This physician also gave me certain prescribed medications as part of my treatment. Unfortunately, I now know that the medication the physician in the Dominican gave me is one that is often used to treat my condition, but is also a banned substance under Major League Baseball’s drug policy. As a result, I tested positive when I reported to spring training.

“Although I understand that I must accept responsibility for this mistake and have chosen not to challenge my suspension, I want to assure everyone that this was an isolated incident involving my genuine effort to treat a common medical issue and start a family. I was not trying in any way to gain an advantage in my baseball career. I am embarrassed by this whole situation and apologize to my family, friends, fans, teammates, and the entire Reds Organization for being a distraction and for causing them any difficulty. I simply want to accept the consequences, learn from the mistake, and continue to strive to be the best person and baseball player I can be.”

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/04/20/volquez-statement/

Hoosier Red
04-20-2010, 04:46 PM
Statement from Edinson Volquez:

“Prior to the conclusion of last season, my wife and I sought medical advice in Cincinnati with the hope of starting a family. As part of my consultation with the physician, I received certain prescribed medications to treat my condition. As a follow up to our original consultation, my wife and I visited another physician in our home city in the Dominican Republic this past off-season. This physician also gave me certain prescribed medications as part of my treatment. Unfortunately, I now know that the medication the physician in the Dominican gave me is one that is often used to treat my condition, but is also a banned substance under Major League Baseball’s drug policy. As a result, I tested positive when I reported to spring training.

“Although I understand that I must accept responsibility for this mistake and have chosen not to challenge my suspension, I want to assure everyone that this was an isolated incident involving my genuine effort to treat a common medical issue and start a family. I was not trying in any way to gain an advantage in my baseball career. I am embarrassed by this whole situation and apologize to my family, friends, fans, teammates, and the entire Reds Organization for being a distraction and for causing them any difficulty. I simply want to accept the consequences, learn from the mistake, and continue to strive to be the best person and baseball player I can be.”

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/04/20/volquez-statement/

Well I'm a sucker, and I don't care either way but his explanation certainly seems plausible.

bucksfan2
04-20-2010, 04:49 PM
Sorry Edinson you have a list of banned substances and you took a banned substance. If your livelihood depends on it you should have looked at alternative methods. Also if what he said is true I wouldn't doubt that he purposefully went forward and took the substance, knew there would be a 50 day penalty but also knowing that he would be on the 60 day DL.

OnBaseMachine
04-20-2010, 04:50 PM
Well I'm a sucker, and I don't care either way but his explanation certainly seems plausible.

I agree. I know I'll be called a homer and what not, but I don't care. Out of all the excuses I've seen players use, this one actually sounds legit.

_Sir_Charles_
04-20-2010, 04:51 PM
Well, I for one am going to give him the benefit of the doubt. There are indeed several male fertility drugs on the restricted list. I can easily see a Dominican doctor prescribing a drug to fix the problem without first consulting the MLB banned list. What does the doctor care what the MLB bans or not. All the doctor cares about is helping his patient and fixing the ailment.

In this day and age, I know it's easy to point fingers and assess blame. But he's not done anything similar to this before, and considering the fact that he's been to ST before and knows the routines...it would be absolutely idiotic to try something against the rules when you KNOW you're going to get checked on it. Honest mistake he says...I for one believe him.

pedro
04-20-2010, 04:52 PM
Frankly, if he'd said he was trying to make sure he healed fully so he took the risk I wouldn't care either. My problem with PED's has to do with guys taking them while they are actually playing games.

Spring~Fields
04-20-2010, 04:52 PM
Well I'm a sucker, and I don't care either way but his explanation certainly seems plausible.

Yes, seems totally reasonable and could happen to anyone. Especially if they are not doctors and are not trained with the full knowledge of medications.

Cedric
04-20-2010, 04:54 PM
I agree. I know I'll be called a homer and what not, but I don't care. Out of all the excuses I've seen players use, this one actually sounds legit.

I would believe it if it wasn't so prevalent with DR players. It's a circus there and I don't know if I blame anyone considering the $$$ involved.

durl
04-20-2010, 04:56 PM
Sorry Edinson you have a list of banned substances and you took a banned substance. If your livelihood depends on it you should have looked at alternative methods. Also if what he said is true I wouldn't doubt that he purposefully went forward and took the substance, knew there would be a 50 day penalty but also knowing that he would be on the 60 day DL.

I can understand him seeking medical treatment in order to have children. But players HAVE to know by now that they need to check with MLB when they put any prescribed medicines into their systems...especially by those prescribed by doctors outside the country.

Caveat Emperor
04-20-2010, 04:57 PM
Frankly, if he'd said he was trying to make sure he healed fully so he took the risk I wouldn't care either. My problem with PED's has to do with guys taking them while they are actually playing games.

This.

Frankly, it's hypocritical of MLB to have an extensive list of "banned" substances for athletes. They're letting doctors perform all kinds of re-attachments and Frankenstein-like reconstructions, but then telling the athlete "Sorry, that drug is cheating."

Doesn't make sense to me.

Brutus
04-20-2010, 04:58 PM
PR? I thought they are Dominican?




:cool:

Give it up for ochre, ladies and gentlemen!

OnBaseMachine
04-20-2010, 04:59 PM
Frankly, if he'd said he was trying to make sure he healed fully so he took the risk I wouldn't care either. My problem with PED's has to do with guys taking them while they are actually playing games.

Same here. Nice post.

Reds Fanatic
04-20-2010, 04:59 PM
Well I'm a sucker, and I don't care either way but his explanation certainly seems plausible.It may seem plausible but with all the drugs that are banned for various reasons there is really no excuse. If the players have any question about a drug they should ask the trainers who I am sure know the entire list.

TheNext44
04-20-2010, 05:01 PM
It may seem plausible but with all the drugs that are banned for various reasons there is really no excuse. If the players have any question about a drug they should ask the trainers who I am sure know the entire list.

Exactly, and I blames the Reds for this as well. They need to be on top of everything he is taking and doing for rehab. Not just for stuff like this, but for doing something that could hurt him or his progress.

Brutus
04-20-2010, 05:03 PM
Frankly, if he'd said he was trying to make sure he healed fully so he took the risk I wouldn't care either. My problem with PED's has to do with guys taking them while they are actually playing games.

I would agree, but it's too slippery a slope to make that differentiation.

I'm definitely also more concerned about the competitive implications of taking PED's than the ramifications of someone simply trying to heal from medical issues. After all, the purpose of antibiotics and other legal drugs are for healing. Banned substances aren't much different, especially since many are legal.

But the problem is you open up Pandora's box if you say they're legal if done in the name of healing. After all, players can begin taking them to recover from various nagging injuries, etc.

I'm certainly not overly concerned by this, but I don't want to justify it.

kbrake
04-20-2010, 05:07 PM
Exactly, and I blames the Reds for this as well. They need to be on top of everything he is taking and doing for rehab. Not just for stuff like this, but for doing something that could hurt him or his progress.

Its really a stretch to blame the team, IMO. The players still have some privacy in their lives and I'm sure no team in sports knows everything their players are taking. No matter how much money you make some things should still be private and there are medical situations I'm sure you wouldn't want to have to discuss at work.

Hoosier Red
04-20-2010, 05:07 PM
It may seem plausible but with all the drugs that are banned for various reasons there is really no excuse. If the players have any question about a drug they should ask the trainers who I am sure know the entire list.

If I could carry the story a little further from what Volquez said,

1) Drug prescribed in Cincinnati, which he may or may not have checked with the trainers, but let's say for instance that one was allowed.

2) Went to get refill in DR, quite possible the pharmacy in DR is not as well stocked as those in the states, gives him what the pharmacist assumes is "the equivalent" which may have been banned.

I'm not saying that's exactly what happened, but from Volquez's story, that's a possible scenario.

westofyou
04-20-2010, 05:07 PM
This.

Frankly, it's hypocritical of MLB to have an extensive list of "banned" substances for athletes. They're letting doctors perform all kinds of re-attachments and Frankenstein-like reconstructions, but then telling the athlete "Sorry, that drug is cheating."

Doesn't make sense to me.

41 years ago


"A few pills—I take all kinds—and the pain's gone," says Dennis McLain of the Detroit Tigers. McLain also takes shots, or at least took a shot of cortisone and Xylocaine (anti-inflammant and painkiller) in his throwing shoulder prior to the sixth game of the 1968 World Series—the only game he won in three tries. In the same Series, which at times seemed to be a matchup between Detroit and St. Louis druggists, Cardinal Bob Gibson was gobbling muscle-relaxing pills, trying chemically to keep his arm loose. The Tigers' Series hero, Mickey Lolich, was on antibiotics.

?"We occasionally use Dexamyl and Dexedrine [amphetamines].... We also use barbiturates, Seconal, Tuinal, Nembutal.... We also use some anti-depressants, Triavil, Tofranil, Valium.... But I don't think the use of drugs is as prevalent in the Midwest as it is on the East and West coasts," said Dr. I. C. Middleman, who, until his death last September, was team surgeon for the St. Louis baseball Cardinals

westofyou
04-20-2010, 05:08 PM
Exactly, and I blames the Reds for this as well. They need to be on top of everything he is taking and doing for rehab. Not just for stuff like this, but for doing something that could hurt him or his progress.

Cut to the chase.

I blame Bob Boone

pedro
04-20-2010, 05:13 PM
I would agree, but it's too slippery a slope to make that differentiation.

I'm definitely also more concerned about the competitive implications of taking PED's than the ramifications of someone simply trying to heal from medical issues. After all, the purpose of antibiotics and other legal drugs are for healing. Banned substances aren't much different, especially since many are legal.

But the problem is you open up Pandora's box if you say they're legal if done in the name of healing. After all, players can begin taking them to recover from various nagging injuries, etc.

I'm certainly not overly concerned by this, but I don't want to justify it.

I'm not saying it should be legal within MLB, I'm just saying I personally think there is a difference.

TRF
04-20-2010, 05:13 PM
I can blame Bob Boone in four steps...

TheNext44
04-20-2010, 05:43 PM
Its really a stretch to blame the team, IMO. The players still have some privacy in their lives and I'm sure no team in sports knows everything their players are taking. No matter how much money you make some things should still be private and there are medical situations I'm sure you wouldn't want to have to discuss at work.

They ban players from riding motorcycles and skiiing. I see nothing wrong with them demanding that they are made aware of every drug that a player takes, just for cases like these.

Now the can't stop a player from lying to them, or not revealing what they are doing, but the team must make it clear that this will not be tolerated.

OnBaseMachine
04-20-2010, 05:44 PM
From Fay:

Jocketty says Volquez can continue rehab in Goodyear. "He can do everything he's been doing. He just can't play in a game."

http://twitter.com/johnfayman

From C. Trent:

Jocketty says Volquez is "still on track for the end of July"

http://twitter.com/ctrent

Ghosts of 1990
04-20-2010, 05:44 PM
Ok now that it's sunk in.... Is anyone sitting here thinking "of course it's one of our guys"???

westofyou
04-20-2010, 05:47 PM
They ban players from riding motorcycles and skiiing. I see nothing wrong with them demanding that they are made aware of every drug that a player takes, just for cases like these.

Now the can't stop a player from lying to them, or not revealing what they are doing, but the team must make it clear that this will not be tolerated.

Personal responsibilty belongs to the man with the body that fails the test, not the organization that hired the man.

11larkin11
04-20-2010, 05:49 PM
Frankly, if he'd said he was trying to make sure he healed fully so he took the risk I wouldn't care either. My problem with PED's has to do with guys taking them while they are actually playing games.

Oh, so you mean guys doing something against baseball rules after their playing careers shouldn't be punished for their actual playing careers, but be punished for their post playing careers? Like, for instance, if a manager bet on his team to win, his playing career shouldn't be punished. Sounds plauisble to me.

westofyou
04-20-2010, 05:51 PM
Oh, so you mean guys doing something against baseball rules after their playing careers shouldn't be punished for their actual playing careers, but be punished for their post playing careers? Like, for instance, if a manager bet on his team to win, his playing career shouldn't be punished. Sounds plauisble to me.

What a load of crap... we have a winner I knew the thread couldn't go on without someone having baseball tourettes and mentioning Pete.

No comparison at all and it and anything else concerning doesn't wipe his slate clean.. but thanks for playing.

pedro
04-20-2010, 05:51 PM
Oh, so you mean guys doing something against baseball rules after their playing careers shouldn't be punished for their actual playing careers, but be punished for their post playing careers? Like, for instance, if a manager bet on his team to win, his playing career shouldn't be punished. Sounds plauisble to me.

I think you're trying to make a point about Pete Rose but it sure doesn't have anything to do with what I said nor does it really make any sense at all.

VR
04-20-2010, 05:51 PM
now that's payflex

Tommyjohn25
04-20-2010, 05:58 PM
BOOOOO DANNY GRAVES!!! :cool:

Chip R
04-20-2010, 06:11 PM
There goes the HOF for Volquez.

REDblooded
04-20-2010, 06:22 PM
For those wondering, the female fertility drug that Manny took was to raise his epitestosterone level to match his testosterone level. One of the tests that the MLB performs is the comparison between the testosterone level and the epitestosterone level. Regular steroids raise your testosterone levels, while the female fertility drug that Manny was using was raising his epitestosterone level to (theory begins) mask his use of steroids (theory ends). If you use too much of the fertility drug, it can raise your epitestosterone level to an alarming rate, and can be detected by the drug test.

I think I'm remember that right. Same case for Volquez? We shall see.

Not necessarily true though... IIRC the drug Manny was using is also an estrogen suppressor which serves a value in body building/strength training beyond purely a masking agent.

REDblooded
04-20-2010, 06:30 PM
Is Viagra banned? If so, I blame Palmeiro...

Mario-Rijo
04-20-2010, 06:38 PM
Let's see did McGwire, Bonds, Palmeiro, Sosa etc. come right out and give an explanation (not to mention a plausible one) at all right away? No? Different scenario then.

Spring~Fields
04-20-2010, 06:41 PM
This.

Frankly, it's hypocritical of MLB to have an extensive list of "banned" substances for athletes. They're letting doctors perform all kinds of re-attachments and Frankenstein-like reconstructions, but then telling the athlete "Sorry, that drug is cheating."

Doesn't make sense to me.

Yes

Plus what performance was going to be enhanced, when the guy wasn't even going to be playing at all, maybe not this year. How do you enhance performance, when you're not going to be performing?

Plus the guy said that he went to two different doctors for a family matter, those doctors could verify or deny, it would be foolish for him to bring them into it, if he were not telling the truth. He really would be hung out to dry if he lied, and two doctors said huh, what, no, we did not give him medications for the reasons that he is saying. He'd be toast



Bob DuPuy, baseball’s chief operating officer, said that Volquez’s suspension is more evidence that baseball’s crackdown on drugs is working.

“It’s sad when any player feels that he needs to take a performance-enhancing substance to gain an edge,” DuPuy told The Associated Press in Los Angeles. “It’s disappointing, but at the same time it underscores the fact that the program is in fact working. And if players are cheating, they’re going to get caught.”

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AmF8vOCqW1CmcxzXNeQ7mggRvLYF?slug=ap-reds-volquezsuspended

westofyou
04-20-2010, 06:47 PM
Let's see did McGwire, Bonds, Palmeiro, Sosa etc. come right out and give an explanation (not to mention a plausible one) at all right away? No? Different scenario then.

Of course only Rafy tested positive, so the others didn't have to explain anything.

TheNext44
04-20-2010, 09:00 PM
Personal responsibilty belongs to the man with the body that fails the test, not the organization that hired the man.

But when the organization can get hurt by the players actions, it is their responsibility as well. That's why teams don't let players do activities in the off season that could ruin their careers.

Maybe it's not their responsibility, but it sure is dumb of them to not do everything they can to make sure it doesn't happen.

westofyou
04-20-2010, 09:41 PM
But when the organization can get hurt by the players actions, it is their responsibility as well. That's why teams don't let players do activities in the off season that could ruin their careers.

Maybe it's not their responsibility, but it sure is dumb of them to not do everything they can to make sure it doesn't happen.

Those activities are written into contracts, and they vary according to who the player is usually, the league has a contract with all the players regarding use, that's where the relationship is centered, the Reds aren't going to address it in any manner that would circumvent or trump the leagues contract that exists with the player association.

Unassisted
04-20-2010, 09:48 PM
Hopefully MLB closes that loophole soon.Careful what you wish for... I don't think we want to see it closed retroactively in the next 60 days. ;)

KronoRed
04-20-2010, 10:19 PM
Careful what you wish for... I don't think we want to see it closed retroactively in the next 60 days. ;)

I wouldn't really be upset, I'm not that much of a homer :D

cincinnati chili
04-20-2010, 10:44 PM
Volquez was traded from Texas for another drug user.

How ironic.

The Hamilton trade makes sense now. An accomplished user in exchange for an aspiring one.

As a fan, I'm glad to hear he's basically being sentenced to time served. Now, if the Reds could get every player busted once they hit the 60 day DL, they could save some major bread.

WVRedsFan
04-20-2010, 10:56 PM
Yes, he's a Reds and the Reds are my team. He broke the rules and maybe the law. That being the case, he gets what he deserves. Do I want him back? I don't know. I don't think it makes a difference whether he was trying to heal quicker or not. Cheating is cheating and I don't like it.

Degenerate39
04-20-2010, 11:04 PM
I just got home from work and missed most of the hoopla. Was he recently caught using PEDs? And could the Reds take him off the DL now so he can start his the suspention :D

Cicero
04-20-2010, 11:25 PM
NFL commissioner Roger Goodell responds by suspending Odell Thurman for the 2085 NFL season.

savafan
04-20-2010, 11:42 PM
Maybe he should have called up Smiling Bob. Are the Reds team doctors really trained for fertility issues?

Guess we now know what was in the briefcase Volquez gave Hamilton at the home run derby.

Slyder
04-20-2010, 11:55 PM
Not exactly. The way I understand the rule is Volquez is to have no contact with the Reds organization. He can't use their facilities and is on his own for the next 50 days. So this suspension will in effect curtail any meaningful rehab that Volquez would do at any of the Reds facilities.

I wasnt expecting him to really to contribute anyway this year. This just lessens the chance of Duhhhsty being able to throw him out there in a flailing attempt to save his job or for the Reds to rush him back "to keep up with the Jones's (Cards).

TheNext44
04-21-2010, 01:29 AM
Those activities are written into contracts, and they vary according to who the player is usually, the league has a contract with all the players regarding use, that's where the relationship is centered, the Reds aren't going to address it in any manner that would circumvent or trump the leagues contract that exists with the player association.

So teams asking their players to give them a list of all medications they are taking to make sure that none are banned by the league's drug policy would be a problem with the league's drug policy and its contract with the player association? How? Not being smart, just wondering how.

Guacarock
04-21-2010, 01:34 AM
Much ado about nothing.

Will M
04-21-2010, 02:21 AM
i don't buy Edinson's explanation one bit. i will admit that i am not an expert in male infertility however i am a physician & i can weigh in a little bit on this issue. if we have an endocrinologist here on the ORG please weigh in. i would love to be wrong about this issue. Here is my opinion:

I have not read what exactly the banned substance was but i suspect it was endocrine in nature. This would be gonadotropin (pretestosterone). Specific endocrine treatment is available only for men whose infertility results from hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. this would be from a hypothalamic or pituitary problem causing the pretestosterone hormones not to be produced. however, i cannot imagine that a professional athlete has hypogonadism. this would not just affect his sperm production but many many other things including energy levels & muscle mass.

Some physicians have treated infertile couples by giving the man gonadotropin without doing a detailed investigation into the root cause of the infertility. this is expensive, has risks & has not been proven to be effective.

Sperm auto antibodies can be treated with high dose corticosteroids ( ie prednisone). I don't know if these are on the banned list or not. I doubt it. If Edinson did indeed have this condition he likely wouldn't have chosen high dose prednisone for treatment. It has a ton of side effects & would ravage his body. A type of microsurgical technique would have been preferred.

Many treatments have been used empirically for male infertility, including clomiphene citrate and other hormones, vitamins, and kallikrein. However none of these methods has been proven clinically effective. Some of the hormones could be on the banned list.

So we have these possibilities:
1. Edinson is a cheater & a liar
2. Edinson really does have a hormonal issue. somehow he is able to compete professionally despite problems producing male hormones. He isn't that smart as he took a banned substance (gonadotropin) to treat it.
3. Edinson is taking gonadotropin that his doctor gave him without doing an extensive workup into the cause of the infertility . His doctor is treating him with unproven remedies & Edinson isn't that smart as he took drugs that were not only unproven but banned.
4. Edinson is taking some other unproven drug that turns out to be on the banned list. His doctor is treating him with unproven remedies & Edinson isn't that smart as he took drugs that were not only unproven but banned.

for me its #1 until proven otherwise. Edinson is going to have to prove to me that his story is actual fact & not a lie. His one paragraph explanation will not suffice. If he does not do that then I never want to see him pitch in a Reds uniform again.

REDblooded
04-21-2010, 03:10 AM
So, if he took the drug of nature that you suspect, and it isn't because he has the "double H", what would be the benefits to a man that doesn't need it?

Will M
04-21-2010, 03:23 AM
So, if he took the drug of nature that you suspect, and it isn't because he has the "double H", what would be the benefits to a man that doesn't need it?

The gonadotropins are LH & FSH.
Lutenizing hormone (LH) stimulates testosterone production.
Follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) is required for spermatogenesis.

Just for some perspective. I was in practice as an primary care physician from 1993 until 2005 (i have worked as a hospitalist since). I had ~2000 patients at any one time. I had one patient who had testosterone deficiency and had to be treated with male hormone replacement. one patient. i never had a single patient who went to an endocrinologist for hormone treatment for infertility. now maybe things have changed dramatically since 2005 & everyone and their brother gets hormonal therapy. maybe.

GAC
04-21-2010, 04:39 AM
Frankly, if he'd said he was trying to make sure he healed fully so he took the risk I wouldn't care either. My problem with PED's has to do with guys taking them while they are actually playing games.

This is one of the problems I have with MLB's policy. It's a proven medical fact that certain PEDs do enhance the healing (recovery) process. There are advantages in prescribing them in that aspect. I know of two people who were put on them for that very purpose, and it does work.

And wasn't that also the situation with Card's Ankiel as to why the Dr prescribed them? So in those situations, a player is not taking them to gain a edge or advantage, but to aid the healing process.

Now the question is - can a viable policy be established by MLB where those type of situations can be monitored? Wouldn't it be advantageous too, since it helps in a player's healing process and get's them off the DL faster?

On a different note.....

I'm surprised they are allowing the suspension to start immediately while he is on the DL and rehabilitating.

"You can't pitch in a ML game for the next 50 days"

"Well gee, I wasn't most likely going to be able to anyway"

How is that punitive?

mth123
04-21-2010, 04:52 AM
On a different note.....

I'm surprised they are allowing the suspension to start immediately while he is on the DL and rehabilitating.

"You can't pitch in a ML game for the next 50 days"

"Well gee, I wasn't most likely going to be able to anyway"

How is that punitive?

Guy is losing about a third of his pay for the year. As far as the player goes, that is the punitive part. Missing the games is more punishment for the team than the player.

GAC
04-21-2010, 05:04 AM
Guy is losing about a third of his pay for the year. As far as the player goes, that is the punitive part. Missing the games is more punishment for the team than the player.

Then why does the MLB policy stipulate a 50 game suspension? That suspension, along with the fine, is the rule. Seems ridiculous to allow a player who is on the DL already, and unable to play, to serve (begin) that suspension then.

redsmetz
04-21-2010, 05:34 AM
Then why does the MLB policy stipulate a 50 game suspension? That suspension, along with the fine, is the rule. Seems ridiculous to allow a player who is on the DL already, and unable to play, to serve (begin) that suspension then.

The most significant piece of the penalty in Volquez's case is he now has strike one. Strike two will be harsher and it would, in all likelihood come when he's not on the DL and would leave him with the severe consequences if strike three occurs. Lets hope it doesn't come to that.

mth123
04-21-2010, 06:26 AM
Then why does the MLB policy stipulate a 50 game suspension? That suspension, along with the fine, is the rule. Seems ridiculous to allow a player who is on the DL already, and unable to play, to serve (begin) that suspension then.

Suspension is what causes the paychecks to stop. A straight fine for those amounts would probably get challenged in court.

The suspension isn't about missing games. It's about missing paychecks.

Chip R
04-21-2010, 09:29 AM
Statement from Edinson Volquez:

“Prior to the conclusion of last season, my wife and I sought medical advice in Cincinnati with the hope of starting a family. As part of my consultation with the physician, I received certain prescribed medications to treat my condition. As a follow up to our original consultation, my wife and I visited another physician in our home city in the Dominican Republic this past off-season. This physician also gave me certain prescribed medications as part of my treatment. Unfortunately, I now know that the medication the physician in the Dominican gave me is one that is often used to treat my condition, but is also a banned substance under Major League Baseball’s drug policy. As a result, I tested positive when I reported to spring training.

“Although I understand that I must accept responsibility for this mistake and have chosen not to challenge my suspension, I want to assure everyone that this was an isolated incident involving my genuine effort to treat a common medical issue and start a family. I was not trying in any way to gain an advantage in my baseball career. I am embarrassed by this whole situation and apologize to my family, friends, fans, teammates, and the entire Reds Organization for being a distraction and for causing them any difficulty. I simply want to accept the consequences, learn from the mistake, and continue to strive to be the best person and baseball player I can be.”


So Edinson and the Mrs. go to a doctor in Cincinnati to try to have a kid. He gives them certain meds and that's that. Then, he goes to another doctor in the Dominican and he gives them more meds. Turns out these meds makes him test positive for PEDs or, as in Manny's case, it makes him test positive for a masking agent for PEDs. I'm wondering why the first doctor wasn't good enough for them. Is this second doctor some kind of world famous fertility specialist? I'm not buying this.

westofyou
04-21-2010, 09:36 AM
So Edinson and the Mrs. go to a doctor in Cincinnati to try to have a kid. He gives them certain meds and that's that. Then, he goes to another doctor in the Dominican and he gives them more meds. Turns out these meds makes him test positive for PEDs or, as in Manny's case, it makes him test positive for a masking agent for PEDs. I'm wondering why the first doctor wasn't good enough for them. Is this second doctor some kind of world famous fertility specialist? I'm not buying this.
Maybe his wife pressured/suggested him into receiving a second opinion?

These guys aren't all rocket scientists, sometimes they just do what folks who they deem are more knowledgeable then them tell them to do... including wives and doctors.

tommycash
04-21-2010, 09:39 AM
The gonadotropins are LH & FSH.
Lutenizing hormone (LH) stimulates testosterone production.
Follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) is required for spermatogenesis.

Just for some perspective. I was in practice as an primary care physician from 1993 until 2005 (i have worked as a hospitalist since). I had ~2000 patients at any one time. I had one patient who had testosterone deficiency and had to be treated with male hormone replacement. one patient. i never had a single patient who went to an endocrinologist for hormone treatment for infertility. now maybe things have changed dramatically since 2005 & everyone and their brother gets hormonal therapy. maybe.

Not to question your abilities as a doctor, but is a hormone deficiency the only cause for male infertility, and is the hormone treatment you talked about the only treatment for this ailment? I don't recall seeing what type of problem Volquez has (outside of it being trouble having a child). You said yourself that you have not seen that many cases of men with fertility problems, right? He could have had a testicular injury, a problem with his urethra(sp?), STD, or retrograde ejaculation (not sure what it is, but read that it was a cause of male infertility while researching for this post). Here is a link to male infertility problems.

http://www.urologychannel.com/maleinfertility/causes.shtml

Could he have an alternate version of infertility that you think he has? Is there a treatment for any of these other reasons of infertility that could cause him to take a banned substance. I don't know. Maybe you could give some further insight.

bucksfan2
04-21-2010, 09:46 AM
I may be a little naive here but if I am an owner part of the contract would be that no player receives medical treatment outside of the United States. There is no reason that Edinson should have gone to a fertility Dr. in the DR. Too many players, especially Dominican's have gotten in trouble by taking scripts prescribed by doctors in the DR. Just not an intelligent move if you ask me.

Chip R
04-21-2010, 09:48 AM
Maybe his wife pressured/suggested him into receiving a second opinion?

These guys aren't all rocket scientists, sometimes they just do what folks who they deem are more knowledgeable then them tell them to do... including wives and doctors.[/QUOTE]


Fine. I have no problems with getting a 2nd opinion. But from some doctor in the Dominican? It's not exactly Johns Hopkins. And, as Will M said, what is he doing taking drugs for infertility? I don't buy it. I'm still going to root for him but I don't think he's telling us the whole truth.

westofyou
04-21-2010, 09:48 AM
I may be a little naive here but if I am an owner part of the contract would be that no player receives medical treatment outside of the United States. There is no reason that Edinson should have gone to a fertility Dr. in the DR. Too many players, especially Dominican's have gotten in trouble by taking scripts prescribed by doctors in the DR. Just not an intelligent move if you ask me.

You can't tell a guy from one country that his country (that he probably lives in and his family lives in) is too iffy for any medical care and that he can't go to a Dr. in his own country. It's too draconian.

vaticanplum
04-21-2010, 10:19 AM
It's probably just a matter of where they were at the time. If they live in the DR during the offseason, it's a lot more logical and economical to go to a doctor there.

And second opinions for anything like this are quite common. I got a second opinion (in a second city, in fact, because that's where I was living) for my teeth. Certainly fertility issues rank above my stupid teeth. I also think we're pushing it here with opinions of physicians in other countries. I'm sure there are very fine doctors in the DR.

edabbs44
04-21-2010, 10:24 AM
I may be a little naive here but if I am an owner part of the contract would be that no player receives medical treatment outside of the United States. There is no reason that Edinson should have gone to a fertility Dr. in the DR. Too many players, especially Dominican's have gotten in trouble by taking scripts prescribed by doctors in the DR. Just not an intelligent move if you ask me.

Agreed, except it takes away the potential excuse when someone gets busted for taking something legit.

edabbs44
04-21-2010, 10:28 AM
You can't tell a guy from one country that his country (that he probably lives in and his family lives in) is too iffy for any medical care and that he can't go to a Dr. in his own country. It's too draconian.

Then he can get a job in another industry where he can go any fertility specialist in the world and take all the banned substances he wants. If it affects the team and the sport in general, they can do whatever they want.

TRF
04-21-2010, 10:30 AM
Well, this wil cost EV a lot more than $137,000. He's going to lose his arb. case, that's a given. Though the Reds usually win those, they can really lowball him now.

It'll also likely his first LTC will be lower as well.

westofyou
04-21-2010, 10:36 AM
Then he can get a job in another industry where he can go any fertility specialist in the world and take all the banned substances he wants. If it affects the team and the sport in general, they can do whatever they want.

No they can't... America isn't the only country in the world, so in essence you can't tell others where to seek care.

Spring~Fields
04-21-2010, 10:37 AM
i don't buy Edinson's explanation one bit. i will admit that i am not an expert in male infertility however i am a physician & i can weigh in a little bit on this issue. if we have an endocrinologist here on the ORG please weigh in. i would love to be wrong about this issue. Here is my opinion:

I have not read what exactly the banned substance was but i suspect it was endocrine in nature. This would be gonadotropin (pretestosterone). Specific endocrine treatment is available only for men whose infertility results from hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. this would be from a hypothalamic or pituitary problem causing the pretestosterone hormones not to be produced. however, i cannot imagine that a professional athlete has hypogonadism. this would not just affect his sperm production but many many other things including energy levels & muscle mass.

Some physicians have treated infertile couples by giving the man gonadotropin without doing a detailed investigation into the root cause of the infertility. this is expensive, has risks & has not been proven to be effective.

Sperm auto antibodies can be treated with high dose corticosteroids ( ie prednisone). I don't know if these are on the banned list or not. I doubt it. If Edinson did indeed have this condition he likely wouldn't have chosen high dose prednisone for treatment. It has a ton of side effects & would ravage his body. A type of microsurgical technique would have been preferred.

Many treatments have been used empirically for male infertility, including clomiphene citrate and other hormones, vitamins, and kallikrein. However none of these methods has been proven clinically effective. Some of the hormones could be on the banned list.

So we have these possibilities:
1. Edinson is a cheater & a liar
2. Edinson really does have a hormonal issue. somehow he is able to compete professionally despite problems producing male hormones. He isn't that smart as he took a banned substance (gonadotropin) to treat it.
3. Edinson is taking gonadotropin that his doctor gave him without doing an extensive workup into the cause of the infertility . His doctor is treating him with unproven remedies & Edinson isn't that smart as he took drugs that were not only unproven but banned.
4. Edinson is taking some other unproven drug that turns out to be on the banned list. His doctor is treating him with unproven remedies & Edinson isn't that smart as he took drugs that were not only unproven but banned.

for me its #1 until proven otherwise. Edinson is going to have to prove to me that his story is actual fact & not a lie. His one paragraph explanation will not suffice. If he does not do that then I never want to see him pitch in a Reds uniform again.

What am I missing here doctor?

If there were two doctors that were seen for a reason of trying to have a child, but the couple had failed to that point.

1. Is it normal to turn to the medical field?
1A. Normally is it young couples or old couples that seek help to conceive a child?
2. Do doctors normally test before prescribing for a potential condition within the endocrine gland system ?
3. Two independent doctors to confirm or deny the Volquez comments?
3A. They either exist in this matter or they don’t.
4. If there were two doctors, would a record of testing, treatments and opinions exist?
5. Couldn’t a powerful organization with it’s own investigative ability, and powerful governmental contacts be able to find out?
5A. Was their previous enhancement testing for substances, would there be a record of before and after test results?
6. Would two independent doctors put themselves at risk by departing from their accepted fields norms?

In a world with the media, culture, government and image conscious powerful groups, can things become quite the problem riddled mess for two doctors? At least the American one?

7. Would two doctors appreciate being part of an investigation that might end up being a real burden for them over a guy wanting to cheat at baseball? Who wasn’t even playing? Media running with celebrities over medicating or drug abuse, and dying, entertainment types and their steroids, sports figures with their enhancement, government and sports associations looking hard at someone. Small things can become a big matter for smaller individuals.

8. If Volquez flat out lied, it can be found out from the alleged doctors.

The player is not playing, so what is he cheating at as far as a game or game performance? Ok, he violated the rules and the intent of the guidelines, and received the consequences as stipulated by their rules, and the organization and player is now in compliance, case closed ?

Or

Ok, so he is lying and cheating at healing and rehabbing faster?

What’s wrong with healing and rehabbing or recovering faster? How does wanting to heal, recover, rehab faster become a matter of lying and cheating?

Patients make mistakes self medicating and doctors make mistakes medicating, who’s educated, who’s not, who’s stupid or ignorant, and who’s not, why is it acceptable for one to make mistakes with medication and not for another?

Should society and it’s governing bodies suspend doctors each time they prescribe a medication in error or a medication that doesn’t work? Credibility issues? Ah we don’t want to go there, that is ridiculous, imagine that. Is there any that exist that wouldn’t be suspended? That is a bit harsh, perhaps society should just require that they give back the money that they charged private or public pay for the error or mistake?

Wouldn’t that be moral or ethically correct for them that made the error or mistake to at least refund them? Volquez is letting go of the money, how about the doctors? Good luck with that. Morals, ethics, credibility?

Always the question of rules, standards, norms, morals and ethics, where does it end? When it is it true and right? Rules, standards, morals and ethics for some, gray areas and toleration for others.

What is that? Why is that?

Help me out here, as I am lower on the academia food chain than a doctorate.

Doctors makes mistakes everyday, a judgment error, well, that’s ok. Really?
Ballplayer makes a mistake, a judgment error, hang him.

What am I missing here doctor?

I have seen what prednisone can do to a person and the people that love them. Oh well. Just another mistake. Really?

bucksfan2
04-21-2010, 10:41 AM
You can't tell a guy from one country that his country (that he probably lives in and his family lives in) is too iffy for any medical care and that he can't go to a Dr. in his own country. It's too draconian.

Why not? He doesn't have to sign the contract if he doesn't want to. You can tell a player he can't rid his motorcycle, he can't ski, he can't play basketball, he can't participate in extreme sports, etc. You can stipulate and agree upon pretty much anything you want in a contract as long as both sides agree.

If you want to say its draconian thats fine, I disagree. Its like hiring a guy as CFO of your company and telling him that living in a high violent crime area isn't a good idea.

westofyou
04-21-2010, 10:43 AM
Why not?

Because these guys have lawyers?

http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/index.jsp

TRF
04-21-2010, 10:43 AM
Why not? He doesn't have to sign the contract if he doesn't want to. You can tell a player he can't rid his motorcycle, he can't ski, he can't play basketball, he can't participate in extreme sports, etc. You can stipulate and agree upon pretty much anything you want in a contract as long as both sides agree.

If you want to say its draconian thats fine, I disagree. Its like hiring a guy as CFO of your company and telling him that living in a high violent crime area isn't a good idea.

You can tell him it's not a good idea. You can't tell that CFO where to live though.

westofyou
04-21-2010, 10:44 AM
Its like hiring a guy as CFO of your company and telling him that living in a high violent crime area isn't a good idea.

No, it's not like that at all.

Chip R
04-21-2010, 10:46 AM
If Volquez pitched for the Cubs or Cards instead of the Reds, would we be so ready to accept his story?

edabbs44
04-21-2010, 10:49 AM
No they can't... America isn't the only country in the world, so in essence you can't tell others where to seek care.

You can make them get everything approved, from the doctors they visit to the drugs they put in their bodies.

westofyou
04-21-2010, 10:49 AM
If Volquez pitched for the Cubs or Cards instead of the Reds, would we be so ready to accept his story?

I'm not sure I except it, but hey it's about all they have to go on other than he's from another country.

vaticanplum
04-21-2010, 10:50 AM
If Volquez pitched for the Cubs or Cards instead of the Reds, would we be so ready to accept his story?

Not the Cubs. I'd buy it from any player except a Cub.

westofyou
04-21-2010, 10:50 AM
You can make them get everything approved, from the doctors they visit to the drugs they put in their bodies.

You can tap their phones, follow them at night and ogle their wives too.

Roy Tucker
04-21-2010, 10:54 AM
My take on the whole thing is I would think the club (and probably the union) does *everything* they can to inform their players to be scrupulously careful about what they put in their bodies.

Some guys listen well, others don't. I don't think Volquez did. That's a dumb thing to do.

edabbs44
04-21-2010, 10:55 AM
You can tap their phones, follow them at night and ogle their wives too.

If you don't want to play by the rules then you can go do something else.

Spring~Fields
04-21-2010, 11:12 AM
If Volquez pitched for the Cubs or Cards instead of the Reds, would we be so ready to accept his story?

We don't have to accept his story, there will be medical source documents to confirm or deny. And if it was found out that he was telling the truth or telling a lie, what would society do, in either case? Is that good, is that right?

Do you or we accept the response or reflections from certain general managers and managers that they were way oblivious, and were completely oblivious and innocently in the dark to some alleged ball players use, that became mighty, crowd pleasing home run hitters in the past decade or so?

Were those GM’s or managers cheating, ignorant, stupid, oblivious, or were they indirectly tolerating and enabling for the benefit of their personal careers and their personal money?

Are a small sample of those general managers and managers accepted by current Reds fans?


If you don't want to play by the rules then you can go do something else.

I guess so. But, are we going to be consistent?

_Sir_Charles_
04-21-2010, 11:26 AM
So Edinson and the Mrs. go to a doctor in Cincinnati to try to have a kid. He gives them certain meds and that's that. Then, he goes to another doctor in the Dominican and he gives them more meds. Turns out these meds makes him test positive for PEDs or, as in Manny's case, it makes him test positive for a masking agent for PEDs. I'm wondering why the first doctor wasn't good enough for them. Is this second doctor some kind of world famous fertility specialist? I'm not buying this.

Perscription refill maybe? The Dominican doctor didn't have the original perscription and gave him a similar medication as a substitute?

I don't know the details, I don't think anybody but Edinson does, but IMO this seems reasonable.

Chip R
04-21-2010, 11:27 AM
We don't have to accept his story, there will be medical source documents to confirm or deny. And if it was found out that he was telling the truth or telling a lie, what would society do, in either case? Is that good, is that right?

His doctors don't have to release his information. Confidentiality and the HIPAA act. Even the Dominican doctor may not give that information out - assuming there is a Dominican doctor and he's a real doctor.

I don't think it makes much of a difference one way or another if he's lying or telling the truth. If he's telling the truth, people are still going to be skeptical and not believe him. If he's lying, he's not really any worse off than he was before. When he comes back and if he pitches well, all will be forgiven and mostly forgotten.

westofyou
04-21-2010, 11:34 AM
If you don't want to play by the rules then you can go do something else.

You have heard of Marvin Miller correct?

The owners lost that sort of power years ago, good luck obtaining it again.

Spring~Fields
04-21-2010, 11:36 AM
His doctors don't have to release his information. Confidentiality and the HIPAA act. Even the Dominican doctor may not give that information out - assuming there is a Dominican doctor and he's a real doctor.

No they don't. But one can voluntarily have that done, and if MLB was genuine in their pursuit of what is right, they would want to make sure that they are correct.



I don't think it makes much of a difference one way or another if he's lying or telling the truth. If he's telling the truth, people are still going to be skeptical and not believe him. If he's lying, he's not really any worse off than he was before. When he comes back and if he pitches well, all will be forgiven and mostly forgotten.

That is probably true. ;) I think that you're right.

Cyclone792
04-21-2010, 11:48 AM
If Volquez pitched for the Cubs or Cards instead of the Reds, would we be so ready to accept his story?

If Chris Carpenter were to be suspended for these identical drugs, we'd hear two loud takes on the story from Reds fans:

1) The Cardinals are a dirty, cheating organization.
2) The Reds need to step up and take advantage of the Cards' loss.



Perscription refill maybe? The Dominican doctor didn't have the original perscription and gave him a similar medication as a substitute?

I don't know the details, I don't think anybody but Edinson does, but IMO this seems reasonable.

I don't buy Volquez's story one bit. He knew what he was trying to do, and he got caught trying to do it. Applying some PR spin that it's a fertility issue is just him now trying to save face and avoid the wrath, nothing more.

Players know what they're putting into their bodies, because frankly, if they don't then they're serious idiots. Between direct salary loss and the high potential for future salary loss, a whole pile of money is at stake for any player getting caught.

Any player being prescribed any drug that's even remotely close to any drug on MLB's banned list should be thoroughly reviewing said prescribed drug with their physician with what's listed on MLB's banned list. And if there would be any question whatsoever - ANY question - about the potential for a prescribed drug resulting in a positive test to a drug on the banned list, then that player should be proactive in acquiring a recommendation and clearance from MLB before taking that drug.

This is just straight commen sense. If anybody reading this had to take a regular piss test as often as big league players do, and the consequence of failing a piss test would result in job loss, then you better believe you'd be taking special precautions and proactive measures to ensure you're in the clear before taking a questionable medication.

edabbs44
04-21-2010, 12:04 PM
You have heard of Marvin Miller correct?

The owners lost that sort of power years ago, good luck obtaining it again.

Wasn't the whole hubbub around Beltran's knee surgery this offseason because the Mets said it was unapproved and Beltran said it was? Obviously NY has some medical approval process in place.

vaticanplum
04-21-2010, 12:19 PM
I don't buy Volquez's story one bit. He knew what he was trying to do, and he got caught trying to do it. Applying some PR spin that it's a fertility issue is just him now trying to save face and avoid the wrath, nothing more.

Players know what they're putting into their bodies, because frankly, if they don't then they're serious idiots. Between direct salary loss and the high potential for future salary loss, a whole pile of money is at stake for any player getting caught.

Any player being prescribed any drug that's even remotely close to any drug on MLB's banned list should be thoroughly reviewing said prescribed drug with their physician with what's listed on MLB's banned list. And if there would be any question whatsoever - ANY question - about the potential for a prescribed drug resulting in a positive test to a drug on the banned list, then that player should be proactive in acquiring a recommendation and clearance from MLB before taking that drug.

This is just straight commen sense. If anybody reading this had to take a regular piss test as often as big league players do, and the consequence of failing a piss test would result in job loss, then you better believe you'd be taking special precautions and proactive measures to ensure you're in the clear before taking a questionable medication.

I don't know if it's that black and white, Cyclone. You'd like to think players would pay meticulous attention to this kind of thing, but they overlook things and make stupid assumptions just like anybody else. There was a figure skater who was stripped of her world title several years back because she took Sudafed for a cold, unaware that it contained a banned substance. She accepted it completely (it was dumb, I should have checked the list)...but she didn't check and neither did her handlers and that's not an unthinkable mistake to me.

I'm not saying it's necessarily the case here...I have no idea what really went down or how much he knew. And not saying they're not responsible for their own stupidity, ignorant though it may be. Just saying that a lot of things that seem like common sense sometimes aren't, at least not to everybody.

Hoosier Red
04-21-2010, 01:17 PM
I don't know if it's that black and white, Cyclone. You'd like to think players would pay meticulous attention to this kind of thing, but they overlook things and make stupid assumptions just like anybody else. There was a figure skater who was stripped of her world title several years back because she took Sudafed for a cold, unaware that it contained a banned substance. She accepted it completely (it was dumb, I should have checked the list)...but she didn't check and neither did her handlers and that's not an unthinkable mistake to me.

I'm not saying it's necessarily the case here...I have no idea what really went down or how much he knew. And not saying they're not responsible for their own stupidity, ignorant though it may be. Just saying that a lot of things that seem like common sense sometimes aren't, at least not to everybody.

Also, you'd be surprised how much people are willing to believe because it came from an authority. He got the prescription in Cincinnati, then got another dose in DR. Do you even look at the prescription bottle when you pick up a refill?
He may not have known that the doctor in Cincinnati had to find a specific medicine to avoid being on the banned substance list. If the doctor in DR said, oh we don't have any of X,but we have Y which does the same thing, he may not have thought to ask about that.


Again, I can't say for 100% certainty that this would be the case, but it certainly seems plausible.

I think he's taking responsibility for his ignorance. He isn't challenging anything. He apologized, and 60 days from now everyone will move in.

HeatherC1212
04-21-2010, 01:38 PM
I don't know if it's that black and white, Cyclone. You'd like to think players would pay meticulous attention to this kind of thing, but they overlook things and make stupid assumptions just like anybody else. There was a figure skater who was stripped of her world title several years back because she took Sudafed for a cold, unaware that it contained a banned substance. She accepted it completely (it was dumb, I should have checked the list)...but she didn't check and neither did her handlers and that's not an unthinkable mistake to me.

Figure Skating Fangirl Moment:

Actually, they were stripped of their European gold medal that year (2000), not the world title, and they were not allowed to participate in Worlds later that season. The pair team was Elena Berezhnaya & Anton Sikharulidze who skated for Russia and were the co gold medalists at the Olympics in 2002 (just in case their names actually sound familiar to anyone, LOL).

/End Figure Skating Fangirl Moment :p:

Cyclone792
04-21-2010, 01:52 PM
I don't know if it's that black and white, Cyclone. You'd like to think players would pay meticulous attention to this kind of thing, but they overlook things and make stupid assumptions just like anybody else. There was a figure skater who was stripped of her world title several years back because she took Sudafed for a cold, unaware that it contained a banned substance. She accepted it completely (it was dumb, I should have checked the list)...but she didn't check and neither did her handlers and that's not an unthinkable mistake to me.

I'm not saying it's necessarily the case here...I have no idea what really went down or how much he knew. And not saying they're not responsible for their own stupidity, ignorant though it may be. Just saying that a lot of things that seem like common sense sometimes aren't, at least not to everybody.

Perhaps slightly plausible, but not at all likely. This is a 26-year-old dude claiming to be taking fertility drugs during a time in which he's coincidentally trying to bust his tail to get back in the starting rotation quicker.

As I stated earlier, if this were Chris Carpenter here, Reds fans wouldn't be handing out anywhere this much benefit of the doubt. That just tells me that it isn't Volquez's specific story that's allowing people to give him the benefit of the doubt, but rather it's the name on the uniform he wears.

Cedric
04-21-2010, 01:54 PM
Perhaps slightly plausible, but not at all likely. This is a 26-year-old dude claiming to be taking fertility drugs during a time in which he's coincidentally trying to bust his tail to get back in the starting rotation quicker.

As I stated earlier, if this were Chris Carpenter here, Reds fans wouldn't be handing out anywhere this much benefit of the doubt. That just tells me that it isn't Volquez's specific story that's allowing people to give him the benefit of the doubt, but rather it's the name on the uniform he wears.

I don't believe Edinson and I stated that earlier. Not really sure why you are surprised that Reds fans would back one of their own over a hated rival though. There is a reason it's called FANatic.

vaticanplum
04-21-2010, 01:57 PM
As I stated earlier, if this were Chris Carpenter here, Reds fans wouldn't be handing out anywhere this much benefit of the doubt. That just tells me that it isn't Volquez's specific story that's allowing people to give him the benefit of the doubt, but rather it's the name on the uniform he wears.

Well, we're human too :)

I respectfully disagree though. I like to think I'm pretty objective in these situations and I've given plenty of players the benefit of the doubt when I feel it's warranted. I'm not even saying I flat-out believe him...just that I don't know either way and his defense doesn't sound implausible to me.

OnBaseMachine
04-21-2010, 02:03 PM
Maybe more Reds players should take steroids, maybe it will help even the playing field with the Cardinals. ;)

When people start pointing fingers I'd like to know why Matt Holliday always gets a free pass. Here's a guy that played in some hitter friendly ballparks in the minor leagues and still managed to post only a .780 career minor league OPS, including a line of .253/.313/.395 - .708 OPS (578 PA) in his final minor league season in 2003. All of a sudden he reaches the major leagues and posts an .837 OPS as a rookie and has a .933 OPS in 3,696 career major league plate appearances. Hmmmm.

bucksfan2
04-21-2010, 02:08 PM
Well, we're human too :)

I respectfully disagree though. I like to think I'm pretty objective in these situations and I've given plenty of players the benefit of the doubt when I feel it's warranted. I'm not even saying I flat-out believe him...just that I don't know either way and his defense doesn't sound implausible to me.

Plausible or not fact of the matter is Edinson got popped. He tested positive for a PED and will be suspended for 50 games, but it just so happens he wasn't expected to contribute during that time period.

Right now I don't care about apologies or excuses that professional athletes give. I care no more about Edinson's excuse than I do about Ben apologizing. Athletes have had a notorious history of lying, see Palmero.

Here is what I see. Edinson tested positive for a PED he obtained in the DR. It just so happens to coincide with the time he is on a 60 day DL and he doesn't hurt the team. The fertility drug is a convenient excuse, whether or not its true is a whole different story.

vaticanplum
04-21-2010, 02:13 PM
Plausible or not fact of the matter is Edinson got popped. He tested positive for a PED and will be suspended for 50 games, but it just so happens he wasn't expected to contribute during that time period.

Right now I don't care about apologies or excuses that professional athletes give. I care no more about Edinson's excuse than I do about Ben apologizing. Athletes have had a notorious history of lying, see Palmero.

Here is what I see. Edinson tested positive for a PED he obtained in the DR. It just so happens to coincide with the time he is on a 60 day DL and he doesn't hurt the team. The fertility drug is a convenient excuse, whether or not its true is a whole different story.

Ok, we're all talking about like 16 different things here.

1. Is he telling the truth?

2. Do we care if he is telling the truth?

3. Is MLB moronic for having these kinds of restrictions?

4. Is MLB moronic for setting up the rules in a way that an athlete can serve his entire suspension while on the DL?

5. Would we feel differently about any part of the situation if he wasn't a Red?

6. Are the Cubs the stupidest team on earth or just the most annoying?

Most of these things are...kind of irrelevant now that I look at them, actually. And points 3-4 above are actually not related to points 1-2.

I don't think anyone has argued that he shouldn't serve this suspension, including Volquez himself.

Chip R
04-21-2010, 02:14 PM
Well, we're human too :)

I respectfully disagree though. I like to think I'm pretty objective in these situations and I've given plenty of players the benefit of the doubt when I feel it's warranted. I'm not even saying I flat-out believe him...just that I don't know either way and his defense doesn't sound implausible to me.

These explanations are supposed to sound plausible. Just like when Palmiero was busted. He said something about it being a B12 shot he took. McGwire said he only took steroids because he was trying to recover from injuries sooner. Bonds testified that he thought he was using flaxseed oil instead of the Cream or the Clear. 99 times out of 100 they all have some excuse and it sounds believable.

vaticanplum
04-21-2010, 02:15 PM
These explanations are supposed to sound plausible. Just like when Palmiero was busted. He said something about it being a B12 shot he took. McGwire said he only took steroids because he was trying to recover from injuries sooner. Bonds testified that he thought he was using flaxseed oil instead of the Cream or the Clear. 99 times out of 100 they all have some excuse and it sounds believable.

They all sound believable without context. Bonds can say whatever he wants but his physique and his performance betray him. We're all capable of forming our own opinions (and they are just that, opinions) based on a number of factors. It isn't just what they say. Never trust boys on what they tell you alone, you should have learned that in middle school.

Chip R
04-21-2010, 02:28 PM
They all sound believable without context. Bonds can say whatever he wants but his physique and his performance betray him. We're all capable of forming our own opinions (and they are just that, opinions) based on a number of factors. It isn't just what they say. Never trust boys on what they tell you alone, you should have learned that in middle school.

All we have to go on is what Volquez and the Reds PR staff said - because you know they helped him "craft" that statement. Based on what the statement said, it does sound believable. I choose not to believe him because it seems fishy to me. I'm a kind of person who wants to believe the best in people but I also have a cynical side. Right now that cynical side is telling me Edinson isn't telling the whole truth.



Ok, we're all talking about like 16 different things here.

1. Is he telling the truth?

2. Do we care if he is telling the truth?

3. Is MLB moronic for having these kinds of restrictions?

4. Is MLB moronic for setting up the rules in a way that an athlete can serve his entire suspension while on the DL?

5. Would we feel differently about any part of the situation if he wasn't a Red?

6. Are the Cubs the stupidest team on earth or just the most annoying?

Most of these things are...kind of irrelevant now that I look at them, actually. And points 3-4 above are actually not related to points 1-2.

I don't think anyone has argued that he shouldn't serve this suspension, including Volquez himself.

1. He's probably not telling the entire truth. Probably 60-40 lying to truth.

2. We really shouldn't because al that this will effect are his chances at the HOF.

3. I wouldn't say moronic. Possibly erring on the side of caution.

4. Yep. If this was Pujols being suspended while on the DL, we'd be crying bloody murder.

5. Absolutely.

6. Yes and Yes.

TRF
04-21-2010, 02:33 PM
I'd have loved to read/hear this statement:

"I'm guilty. I've never gone through anything like Tommy John surgery before, and I was coming off my best year as a major league pitcher. I wanted to get back as soon as I could to help my teammates. It was stupid. I was stupid, and I can't apologize enough."

Just once. I want to hear that after a player is caught.

Will M
04-21-2010, 02:37 PM
Not to question your abilities as a doctor, but is a hormone deficiency the only cause for male infertility, and is the hormone treatment you talked about the only treatment for this ailment? I don't recall seeing what type of problem Volquez has (outside of it being trouble having a child). You said yourself that you have not seen that many cases of men with fertility problems, right? He could have had a testicular injury, a problem with his urethra(sp?), STD, or retrograde ejaculation (not sure what it is, but read that it was a cause of male infertility while researching for this post). Here is a link to male infertility problems.

http://www.urologychannel.com/maleinfertility/causes.shtml

Could he have an alternate version of infertility that you think he has? Is there a treatment for any of these other reasons of infertility that could cause him to take a banned substance. I don't know. Maybe you could give some further insight.

there are other causes of male infertility such as testicular injury, retrograde ejaculation & low sperm counts. all these are either nontreatable or treatable with surgery.

as to STDs this is a major cause of fertility issues in women as a lot of women are asymptomatic when they have an STD. for men they are almost always symptomatic & get antibiotic treatment right away. i believe you can have a low grade STD that could cause male infertility but this would be treated with antibiotics which are not a banned substance.

the only male infertility issues that would be treated with drugs that could show up on the banned list were the ones i mentioned: hypogonadotropic hypogonadism which i just can't imagine he really has considering he is a professional athlete. in the case of other causes of male infertility that could be caused by a banned substance any drug treatment is unproven.

Cyclone792
04-21-2010, 02:41 PM
the only male infertility issues that would be treated with drugs that could show up on the banned list were the ones i mentioned: hypogonadotropic hypogonadism which i just can't imagine he really has considering he is a professional athlete. in the case of other causes of male infertility that could be caused by a banned substance any drug treatment is unproven.

This right here is a pretty good reason why I just don't buy Volquez's story.

marcshoe
04-21-2010, 02:49 PM
I recognized my own hypocrisy on the steroid issue a couple of years ago. One of my favorite minor leaguers, the Brewers' Angel Salome, whom I'd watched play locally in A ball, got a 50-game ban for PEDs he used while recovering from an injury. The reason for his use was plausible because his production didn't drop when he came back. This didn't change the way I feel about him at all.

He's OPSing over 1.000 in AAA Nashville now, he's still one of my favorites, and I'd still love to see the Reds pick him up, provided he can handle the position (catcher) defensively.

Before Salome, I was pretty strongly anti-steroids and immediately turned against proven users. Then when someone I was a fan of tested positive, I changed my mind, for no other reason than that my emotions got involved.

So at least I am now comfortable in my hypocrisy and will be able to root for Volquez without it bothering me too much. ;)

Will M
04-21-2010, 03:00 PM
What am I missing here doctor?

If there were two doctors that were seen for a reason of trying to have a child, but the couple had failed to that point.

1. Is it normal to turn to the medical field?
1A. Normally is it young couples or old couples that seek help to conceive a child?
2. Do doctors normally test before prescribing for a potential condition within the endocrine gland system ?
3. Two independent doctors to confirm or deny the Volquez comments?
3A. They either exist in this matter or they don’t.
4. If there were two doctors, would a record of testing, treatments and opinions exist?
5. Couldn’t a powerful organization with it’s own investigative ability, and powerful governmental contacts be able to find out?
5A. Was their previous enhancement testing for substances, would there be a record of before and after test results?
6. Would two independent doctors put themselves at risk by departing from their accepted fields norms?

In a world with the media, culture, government and image conscious powerful groups, can things become quite the problem riddled mess for two doctors? At least the American one?

7. Would two doctors appreciate being part of an investigation that might end up being a real burden for them over a guy wanting to cheat at baseball? Who wasn’t even playing? Media running with celebrities over medicating or drug abuse, and dying, entertainment types and their steroids, sports figures with their enhancement, government and sports associations looking hard at someone. Small things can become a big matter for smaller individuals.

8. If Volquez flat out lied, it can be found out from the alleged doctors.

The player is not playing, so what is he cheating at as far as a game or game performance? Ok, he violated the rules and the intent of the guidelines, and received the consequences as stipulated by their rules, and the organization and player is now in compliance, case closed ?

Or

Ok, so he is lying and cheating at healing and rehabbing faster?

What’s wrong with healing and rehabbing or recovering faster? How does wanting to heal, recover, rehab faster become a matter of lying and cheating?

Patients make mistakes self medicating and doctors make mistakes medicating, who’s educated, who’s not, who’s stupid or ignorant, and who’s not, why is it acceptable for one to make mistakes with medication and not for another?

Should society and it’s governing bodies suspend doctors each time they prescribe a medication in error or a medication that doesn’t work? Credibility issues? Ah we don’t want to go there, that is ridiculous, imagine that. Is there any that exist that wouldn’t be suspended? That is a bit harsh, perhaps society should just require that they give back the money that they charged private or public pay for the error or mistake?

Wouldn’t that be moral or ethically correct for them that made the error or mistake to at least refund them? Volquez is letting go of the money, how about the doctors? Good luck with that. Morals, ethics, credibility?

Always the question of rules, standards, norms, morals and ethics, where does it end? When it is it true and right? Rules, standards, morals and ethics for some, gray areas and toleration for others.

What is that? Why is that?

Help me out here, as I am lower on the academia food chain than a doctorate.

Doctors makes mistakes everyday, a judgment error, well, that’s ok. Really?
Ballplayer makes a mistake, a judgment error, hang him.

What am I missing here doctor?

I have seen what prednisone can do to a person and the people that love them. Oh well. Just another mistake. Really?

1. it is certainly normal for couples to turn to the medical field if they have not conceived a child after one year of trying. older couples would certainly have more infertility issues than younger couples. Doctors ABSOLUTELY normally test before prescribing for a potential condition within the endocrine gland system.

2. we actually cannot get the story from Edinson's physician in the USA without Edinson's permission. If the doctor did that he would likely lose his lisence. now if Edinson did give his permission & his two doctors released all his records we could very easily tell if Edinson was telling the truth. they would have a complete chart with the history, physical exam & all lab tests.
so we can't find out if Edinson 'flat out lied' without Edinson's permission.
as i said the burden of proof is on him. in my mind he is guilty until proven innocent because his story doesn't pass the smell test.

3. You asked "Would two independent doctors put themselves at risk by departing from their accepted fields norms?". actually maybe. if Edinson wanted to try unproven treatments & the treatments were thought to be relatively safe they might do that with Edinson's permission. I would not & I know a lot of doctors who would not. but some would.

4. as to your question of whether it is ok to cheat to heal faster rather than cheat to play better: my opinion is of course my personal opinion not my medical opinion. for me cheating is cheating.

5. i certainly am not blaming Edinson for being 'stupid'. however, if his crime is ignorance & not cheating then he can prove this by showing us all his doctor records. its very simple for him to do this.

6. You said """Should society and it’s governing bodies suspend doctors each time they prescribe a medication in error or a medication that doesn’t work? Credibility issues?[/B] Ah we don’t want to go there, that is ridiculous, imagine that. Is there any that exist that wouldn’t be suspended? That is a bit harsh, perhaps society should just require that they give back the money that they charged private or public pay for the error or mistake? """
Off topic a bit but here is my brief answer. Actually doctors are held to a very very high standard in American malpractice courts. bad medicine leading to bad outcome deserves compensation. good medicine leading to bad outcome does not. yet it is the latter that clogs up our courts, raises doctors malpractice premuims & raises the cost of medical care for everyone.

7. """ Ballplayer makes a mistake, a judgment error, hang him. """
Here's the rub. I think Edinson cheated & got caught. He is going to have to do a LOT better to prove to me otherwise. Now, if he came clean, apologized, did his punishment & promised to not do it again, then I would be 100% OK at forgiving him & rooting for him. However, he has not. Until he does I will not root for him.

Will M
04-21-2010, 03:04 PM
We don't have to accept his story, there will be medical source documents to confirm or deny. And if it was found out that he was telling the truth or telling a lie, what would society do, in either case? Is that good, is that right?

Do you or we accept the response or reflections from certain general managers and managers that they were way oblivious, and were completely oblivious and innocently in the dark to some alleged ball players use, that became mighty, crowd pleasing home run hitters in the past decade or so?

Were those GM’s or managers cheating, ignorant, stupid, oblivious, or were they indirectly tolerating and enabling for the benefit of their personal careers and their personal money?

Are a small sample of those general managers and managers accepted by current Reds fans?



I guess so. But, are we going to be consistent?

you are correct here. we don't have to accept his story. its really simple. Edinson goes to his physician & gets copies of his records. He then shows them to us.

oneupper
04-21-2010, 03:12 PM
I want Josh Hamilton back. His drug problems are easier to understand.

Hoosier Red
04-21-2010, 04:01 PM
I don't know, as a man in his early 30's I probably would have just copped to steroids rather than try to tell the whole world I don't have enough testosterone.