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View Full Version : What should be done with Aaron Harang?



ddrone
04-21-2010, 10:34 PM
You was a great pitcher for a number of years Aaron,but not now.I will always remember you as the good pitcher you were,not as you are.

Really,Hes gotta go.He gets his you know what handed to him for the game he pitches,then burns out the bullpen for the next several games.
Send him to the pen,whatever,but lets give the next guy in line a try.

Will M
04-21-2010, 10:50 PM
.

somehow i didn't make this a public poll. sorry.

Will M
04-21-2010, 10:53 PM
my vote: DFA. i have seen enough. thanks for all your work over the years. good luck with future endeavors. but you don't have it anymore.

replace him in the rotation with Matt Maloney. Maloney is likely better ( may be/hopefully a lot better) than Harang right now & has upside.

mth123
04-21-2010, 10:54 PM
Harang to long relief. Owings to the late innings. Maloney to the rotation. Ondrusek to AAA.

REDblooded
04-21-2010, 10:56 PM
I'm trying to find "traded in 2005" as an option... You know, the option that would've landed the Reds Heyward... can we add that please?

membengal
04-21-2010, 10:57 PM
Harang to long relief. Owings to the late innings. Maloney to the rotation. Ondrusek to AAA.

This.

Redsfan320
04-21-2010, 10:59 PM
my vote: DFA. i have seen enough. thanks for all your work over the years. good luck with future endeavors. but you don't have it anymore.

Thank you very much.

320

Will M
04-21-2010, 11:01 PM
question for those who want to move him to the pen: i see a guy who is a human batting tee with a low 90s straightball. his secondary pitches are nonexistent. and his control is poor. hence the 1.62 whip & 8.31 ERA.
do you feel that there is something that can be fixed and that there is a chance of getting some value out of him? or do you just want him available to protect the pen? ie, he is the guy who takes it for the team when certain other starters (who shall remain nameless) go 5 innings?

nate
04-21-2010, 11:07 PM
My vote: I thought the starting pitching was a weakness on par with the offense. The Reds should've gotten (at least) another starter during the offseason.

KronoRed
04-21-2010, 11:11 PM
Keep throwing him out there until someone in AAA beats the door down, and even then maybe keep Harang considering Bailey and Cueto aren't exactly doing spectacular just yet.

Brutus
04-21-2010, 11:11 PM
http://www.untoldentertainment.com/blog/img/2009_03_07/oldYeller.jpg

................


j/k

Will M
04-21-2010, 11:12 PM
http://www.untoldentertainment.com/blog/img/2009_03_07/oldYeller.jpg

................


j/k

thats pretty funny!

Tom Servo
04-21-2010, 11:14 PM
Roll him up in a carpet and throw him off a bridge.

westofyou
04-21-2010, 11:17 PM
Roll him up in a carpet and throw him off a bridge.

Why waste the carpet?

HokieRed
04-21-2010, 11:19 PM
I think it depends entirely on what Price thinks. Can he be straightened out?

KronoRed
04-21-2010, 11:24 PM
Why waste the carpet?

Maybe it's got chili stains on it?

kbrake
04-21-2010, 11:30 PM
Harang to long relief. Owings to the late innings. Maloney to the rotation. Ondrusek to AAA.

Agreed.

alexad
04-21-2010, 11:49 PM
Yes I agree and maybe he can take Jim Day with him. I am tired of hearing him.

RedsManRick
04-21-2010, 11:52 PM
I'd give him 3 more starts, but I'd definitely be tinkering. Something is clearly not working.

Ghosts of 1990
04-21-2010, 11:55 PM
Signed. I've seen more then enough.

Blitz Dorsey
04-22-2010, 12:09 AM
You know how we wondered who Chapman would replace in the rotation when he came up? Well, no one is pondering that question any longer.

Thanks for the memories, Aaron. Time to put a fork in ya, bud.

Caveat Emperor
04-22-2010, 12:10 AM
Phantom DL trip, followed by a rehab stint in AAA to figure out where the heck his slider went.

Or, alternatively, Harang to long relief, Owings to late-inning middle relief, Ondrusek or Massett to AAA and Wood/Maloney up to rotation.

Screwball
04-22-2010, 12:12 AM
Phantom DL trip, followed by a rehab stint in AAA to figure out where the heck his slider went.


That's what I was thinking all game tonight. However, I don't think any amount of rehab or tinkering will bring back his slider. It's just gone, and without that slider he's prone to getting knocked around the park.

fearofpopvol1
04-22-2010, 12:34 AM
I'd give him 3 more starts, but I'd definitely be tinkering. Something is clearly not working.

That's pretty generous. I was thinking 1-2 more starts...but I am definitely concerned now and I was not really concerned previously.

Either something is very wrong or he has just completely lost it. I'm not sure which.

flyer85
04-22-2010, 12:43 AM
move him to the pen, bring up Maloney. Harang has better velocity than last year but no command. IMO he is having arm trouble.

Hap
04-22-2010, 01:15 AM
let's face it whether we like it or not.......

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a3/Stuck_With_You_Single.jpg

Will M
04-22-2010, 01:24 AM
let's face it whether we like it or not.......

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a3/Stuck_With_You_Single.jpg

not really.

Castellini cannot expect a fan to support a team when the product on the field has no chance of winning. attendance will drop. TV ratings (and advertising dollars) will drop. just because Bob is on the hook for several million dollars doesn't mean i have to watch. the $12M or so owed to Harang this year is a sunk cost. the revenue generated by the team is not. Castellini better know the difference between the two otherwise he'll be a fair amount poorer by the end of 2010.

Slyder
04-22-2010, 02:13 AM
question for those who want to move him to the pen: i see a guy who is a human batting tee with a low 90s straightball. his secondary pitches are nonexistent. and his control is poor. hence the 1.62 whip & 8.31 ERA.
do you feel that there is something that can be fixed and that there is a chance of getting some value out of him? or do you just want him available to protect the pen? ie, he is the guy who takes it for the team when certain other starters (who shall remain nameless) go 5 innings?

Just look at Owings this year. Maybe at this point in his career Harang can rejuvenate something knowing he's only going out there for maybe 2 innings and not have to worry about holding anything back. And yes Im too much of a sedimental softie to just outright DFA him yet. Skip him in the rotation and try to adjust it so that Arroyo is facing "#1s", call up Maloney, Chapman, LeCure, or Wood and they become 4/5 with Leake and see if you cant find even a temporary fountain of youth with Harang in the pen.

mdccclxix
04-22-2010, 02:23 AM
I give him one more start in Houston, where he's well known, and if he fails move him to AAA to figure out who the NEW Aaron Harang will be, because the OLD Harang is wayyy in the past. Everybody knows what he's going to do, it's awful to watch.

tripleaaaron
04-22-2010, 02:42 AM
Why stop at Harang? The entire pitching staff (sans owings and Leake) looks suspect. DFA all of them. And the offense, just plain awful, gone too. Something does need to be done here but A) don't see it happening due to the money. And B) does it really help? The problems start with coaching. Has anyone improved? Has anyone even matched last year or their career norms? Harang may be done but I am much more concerned over the future of our young players if they continue to follow the guidance of our coaching staff. They can't even seem to drive home the fundamentals that are taught in little league (which dusty said would be the focus). It is both painful and embarrassing to watch. I see better baseball played at Florence Freedom games.

Unassisted
04-22-2010, 02:48 AM
Phantom DL trip, followed by a rehab stint in AAA to figure out where the heck his slider went.
I agree. I was looking for this choice in the poll.

Fay said something about the Reds possibly skipping his next start, since it falls on an off day. Not sure if that makes this scenario more or less likely to happen soon.

Will M
04-22-2010, 03:21 AM
Why stop at Harang? The entire pitching staff (sans owings and Leake) looks suspect. DFA all of them. And the offense, just plain awful, gone too. Something does need to be done here but A) don't see it happening due to the money. And B) does it really help? The problems start with coaching. Has anyone improved? Has anyone even matched last year or their career norms? Harang may be done but I am much more concerned over the future of our young players if they continue to follow the guidance of our coaching staff. They can't even seem to drive home the fundamentals that are taught in little league (which dusty said would be the focus). It is both painful and embarrassing to watch. I see better baseball played at Florence Freedom games.

well i am not advocating stopping at Harang. i am actually advocating starting with Harang. in another thread i agreed with replacing Cabrera with Janish. i also suggested platooning Dickerson with Stubbs & suggested only starting Gomes vs LH starters (with Nix or even Dorn playing LF vs a RH starter). you have to start somewhere & DFAing half the team just isn't realistic. since Harang is the worst of the three starters struggling & is actually struggling really really bad he seems like a better guy to drop from the rotation than Bailey or Cueto. if they keep up their poor pitching then their time will come.

Spring~Fields
04-22-2010, 04:24 AM
I wonder if St. Louis and Duncan would be interested in any of these Reds pitchers that just can't seem to make a go of it.

Not to be a jerk, Okay a bigger jerk. :)

But, I really would like to see what Duncan could do with some of the Reds pitchers that frustrate us, and I am not blaming us for being frustrated.

GAC
04-22-2010, 05:38 AM
"It's bad luck. That's how you look at it," Harang said. "This game is about luck. It's just a bad spell right now. I just have to keep hanging in there and things will change hopefully."

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100421&content_id=9475098&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

I've always had a lot of respect for Harang, but c'mon guy! You've lost 13 of your last 14 decisions, and your record is 12-34 over the last two-plus seasons.

An old Jane Fonda movie comes to mind....

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000K3C4.01.LZZZZZZZ.gif

mth123
04-22-2010, 05:45 AM
I wonder if St. Louis and Duncan would be interested in any of these Reds pitchers that just can't seem to make a go of it.

Not to be a jerk, Okay a bigger jerk. :)

But, I really would like to see what Duncan could do with some of the Reds pitchers that frustrate us, and I am not blaming us for being frustrated.

I think you are on to something here. Arroyo and Baley were awesome last year at the end. Harang was doing well until his appendix stopped him and Cueto was pretty good after his rest on the DL.

Seems to me how they were prepared in spring may have something to do with them all going south at once. Seems unlikely that they all would be so awful at the same time unless there was some common denominator. IMO they weren't prepared well. They weren't stretched out and are now in the dead arm period that should have been over by the last week of ST. Now I think its in some of these guys heads (especially Bailey and Cueto) and could be difficult to get them over the hump..

Cyclone792
04-22-2010, 07:37 AM
I send Harang in a time machine back to circa 2006 so he can hit Jerry Narron in the face with a bat. Then on his way back to present day, I have him stop in San Diego on May 25th, 2008 so he can hit teh Dusty in the face with a bat.

Years of Narron abuse followed up with one whopper by teh Dusty just pushed Harang so that he was teetering on the edge of that cliff. And what Reds fans are seeing now is what was once one helluva solid pitcher just tumbling over the cliff. It's been nearly two years now since that ill-fated day in San Diego, and Harang's production since that point has done nothing but reminded me of Eric Milton.

Stupid decisions oftentimes lead to bad results long-term. The Reds just get what they deserve.

Ltlabner
04-22-2010, 07:43 AM
Stupid decisions oftentimes lead to bad results long-term. The Reds just get what they deserve.

Well said. Maybe riding an arm like a hoss all the time isn't such a great idea after all.

It's a shame because Aaron seems like a genuinely nice man. But as Michael Corleone might say "this isn't personal, it's business".

I'd try him out in the pen and/or work out a deal for him. I'd give him a big sendoff or make a splash out of it for his benefit. IOW, I wouldn't run him out of town on a rail nor dump him for a bag of rosin (although your trading options might be limited based on contract and production). They should thank him for his services and quiet production as managers drove him into the ground and he was surrounded by stink-o teams.

forfreelin04
04-22-2010, 08:02 AM
I send Harang in a time machine back to circa 2006 so he can hit Jerry Narron in the face with a bat. Then on his way back to present day, I have him stop in San Diego on May 25th, 2008 so he can hit teh Dusty in the face with a bat.

Years of Narron abuse followed up with one whopper by teh Dusty just pushed Harang so that he was teetering on the edge of that cliff. And what Reds fans are seeing now is what was once one helluva solid pitcher just tumbling over the cliff. It's been nearly two years now since that ill-fated day in San Diego, and Harang's production since that point has done nothing but reminded me of Eric Milton.

Stupid decisions oftentimes lead to bad results long-term. The Reds just get what they deserve.

:clap:

Great post!

Stupid decisions also lead to bad results in the short term if your the Reds.

The funniest part is the fact the Reds are paying an exorbitant amount of money for the Harang they created.

tripleaaaron
04-22-2010, 09:35 AM
well i am not advocating stopping at Harang. i am actually advocating starting with Harang. in another thread i agreed with replacing Cabrera with Janish. i also suggested platooning Dickerson with Stubbs & suggested only starting Gomes vs LH starters (with Nix or even Dorn playing LF vs a RH starter). you have to start somewhere & DFAing half the team just isn't realistic. since Harang is the worst of the three starters struggling & is actually struggling really really bad he seems like a better guy to drop from the rotation than Bailey or Cueto. if they keep up their poor pitching then their time will come.

You missed the point entirely, Spring-Fields is on the same page. This doesn't seem to just be a Harang problem, it is team wide which leads me to believe their are larger issues to worry about. I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said here, but these are not the issues. NOONE is improving. Name one player who has gotten any better. They just aren't prepared at all. DFA Harang, won't matter one bit. Something needs to be done at the top if we truly want to make strides toward our supposed goal of being a winning ballclub.

Roy Tucker
04-22-2010, 09:41 AM
His body won't let him be a power pitcher any more. Rode hard, put up wet too many times. Can he make a transition to crafty veteran?

Falls City Beer
04-22-2010, 09:58 AM
I'm convinced this organization has no idea how to develop, improve, or find starting pitching. If your bones aren't completely eaten up with nihilism concerning this organization's pitching woes, then you've not been following this franchise closely enough.

reds1869
04-22-2010, 09:59 AM
I would talk to him about moving to the pen. He definitely deserves some input into the situation. That said, if he disagrees I'd do it anyway. The best chance for him to succeed and contribute at this point is in the pen where he can give max effort for a few inninings.

Falls City Beer
04-22-2010, 09:59 AM
His body won't let him be a power pitcher any more. Rode hard, put up wet too many times. Can he make a transition to crafty veteran?

He throws as hard as he did in his good years. He just cannot locate.

westofyou
04-22-2010, 10:01 AM
I send Harang in a time machine back to circa 2006 so he can hit Jerry Narron in the face with a bat. Then on his way back to present day, I have him stop in San Diego on May 25th, 2008 so he can hit teh Dusty in the face with a bat.

Years of Narron abuse followed up with one whopper by teh Dusty just pushed Harang so that he was teetering on the edge of that cliff. And what Reds fans are seeing now is what was once one helluva solid pitcher just tumbling over the cliff. It's been nearly two years now since that ill-fated day in San Diego, and Harang's production since that point has done nothing but reminded me of Eric Milton.

Stupid decisions oftentimes lead to bad results long-term. The Reds just get what they deserve.
Sometimes big guys who are in essence not very athletic have small windows of performance, I find blaming one extra start for something that happens to 98% of the men who throw the ball for a living a little too easy of an excuse.

Pitching is a unnatural act, every pitcher is a throw away from selling insurance.

Falls City Beer
04-22-2010, 10:01 AM
Sometimes big guys who are in essence not very athletic have small windows of performance, I find blaming one extra start for something that happens to 98% of the men who throw the ball for a living a little too easy of an excuse.

Pitching is a unnatural act, every pitcher is a throw away from selling insurance.

Post of the decade.

Always Red
04-22-2010, 10:08 AM
His body won't let him be a power pitcher any more. Rode hard, put up wet too many times. Can he make a transition to crafty veteran?

Yet, he is throwing harder than he has in some time.

Maybe, he is trying too much to be a power pitcher, and getting away from what made him very effective?

Look, I agree with what Cyclone posted above about both Narron's overuse and Baker's ill-advised relief outing; there is no disputing his numbers before and after that outing.

But is he hurt? His velocity says no. He had some 93-94mph fastballs last night, at least on Fox. I can't remember him throwing that hard the last few years.

It's his command that is horrible. Harang used to be able to hit his spot with the best of them; no longer though- he's all over the place.

If this team-wide malaise on both offense and pitching continues, the Reds are going to be well out of it by midseason. So I would continue to work with Harang, polish him back up, and get him to being able to spot the ball and change speeds again, then flip him at the deadline (if anyone wants him) for the best deal you can get. But obviously, if he continues to slide and can't get ANYONE out, a move needs to be made before then.

Roy Tucker
04-22-2010, 10:12 AM
There is more to being a power pitcher than velocity. His location and movement have gone to pot.

Always Red
04-22-2010, 10:27 AM
There is more to being a power pitcher than velocity. His location and movement have gone to pot.

yes I know, I had addressed that in my post. ;)

But the first part of being a power pitcher is throwing hard.

Falls City Beer
04-22-2010, 10:30 AM
yes I know, I had addressed that in my post. ;)

But the first part of being a power pitcher is throwing hard.

And if it was pitcher abuse, he'd almost certainly have witnessed a drop in velocity.

bucksfan2
04-22-2010, 10:37 AM
There is more to being a power pitcher than velocity. His location and movement have gone to pot.

I don't know if his movement is gone, I just don't think he can control that anymore. I watched a little bit of last nights game, first 3 innings, and Harang was missing all over the plate. When Hernandez would set up outside Harang would miss up and inside. He couldn't control where his pitch would end up. I think his movement at this point is his issue it that he doesn't know where his fastballs will end up. It didn't add to the fact that his breaking pitch had no break. Its a shame but Harang looked like a beaten man on the mound. I would give him another 3 starts to get it worked out. The Dodgers are the best offensive team in the NL right now. 3-4 starts and if he doesn't improve Im either thinking a DL trip or DFA.

On a side note Welsh mentioned that both Harang and Bailey's breaking balls weren't breaking. I wonder if that has anything to do with Cincy having those slick balls that Carpenter complained about.

edabbs44
04-22-2010, 10:38 AM
Sometimes big guys who are in essence not very athletic have small windows of performance, I find blaming one extra start for something that happens to 98% of the men who throw the ball for a living a little too easy of an excuse.

Pitching is a unnatural act, every pitcher is a throw away from selling insurance.

Agreed 100%

HokieRed
04-22-2010, 10:47 AM
Any info. about his health? I wonder about his back specifically. Everything he throws seems flatter, as if he's just not getting the same downward angle he was a couple of years ago. Back problems are certainly not unusual in people, let alone pitchers, his height. Could even be aftermath of the appendicitis operation. Would be really interesting, I think, to see videos of him from 2006 and compare them to now.

nate
04-22-2010, 11:01 AM
I give him one more start in Houston, where he's well known, and if he fails move him to AAA to figure out who the NEW Aaron Harang will be, because the OLD Harang is wayyy in the past. Everybody knows what he's going to do, it's awful to watch.

I don't know for sure but I doubt Harang has options left.

nate
04-22-2010, 11:04 AM
Why stop at Harang? The entire pitching staff (sans owings and Leake) looks suspect. DFA all of them.

Well, of all the solutions there are, that's one of them.

I don't see the winning increasing with "Cy Janish" taking the mound every day.


And the offense, just plain awful, gone too. Something does need to be done here but A) don't see it happening due to the money. And B) does it really help?

Doing something might help, yes.


The problems start with coaching.

The problems start with the talent. The coaching is icing at best and crumbs at worst.


Has anyone improved? Has anyone even matched last year or their career norms?

Yes?


Harang may be done but I am much more concerned over the future of our young players if they continue to follow the guidance of our coaching staff. They can't even seem to drive home the fundamentals that are taught in little league (which dusty said would be the focus). It is both painful and embarrassing to watch. I see better baseball played at Florence Freedom games.

I see

Kc61
04-22-2010, 11:07 AM
Harang and Arroyo are on their last contract year. The Reds should be focused on the best way to market them. There's no point in paying them to continue with the team after this year, the Reds will likely go with young pitchers.

I'd start focusing on trading Arroyo for the best yield possible. Maybe it's immediate, maybe in July, but that's his likely fate I don't see him being re-signed for the dollars it would cost.

Harang probably has no trade value right now, so I'd find a way to get him on the DL and have him work on the sidelines with a rehab stint. Bring him back in late May or June, hopefully he has some good luck and you can get something for him.

At this point, the way the team is going, the key job is polishing these two pitchers up to get some return for them.

TRF
04-22-2010, 11:17 AM
Harang to long relief. Owings to the late innings. Maloney to the rotation. Ondrusek to AAA.

I was thinking the same thing, but I'd give him 2 more starts.

TRF
04-22-2010, 11:18 AM
Yet, he is throwing harder than he has in some time.

Maybe, he is trying too much to be a power pitcher, and getting away from what made him very effective?

Look, I agree with what Cyclone posted above about both Narron's overuse and Baker's ill-advised relief outing; there is no disputing his numbers before and after that outing.

But is he hurt? His velocity says no. He had some 93-94mph fastballs last night, at least on Fox. I can't remember him throwing that hard the last few years.

It's his command that is horrible. Harang used to be able to hit his spot with the best of them; no longer though- he's all over the place.

If this team-wide malaise on both offense and pitching continues, the Reds are going to be well out of it by midseason. So I would continue to work with Harang, polish him back up, and get him to being able to spot the ball and change speeds again, then flip him at the deadline (if anyone wants him) for the best deal you can get. But obviously, if he continues to slide and can't get ANYONE out, a move needs to be made before then.

Smells like Volquez 2009. Still threw hard, lacked command. That's an elbow issue.

dougdirt
04-22-2010, 11:24 AM
Smells like Volquez 2009. Still threw hard, lacked command. That's an elbow issue.
That is typically a sign.... guys still can throw it, but they can't throw it where they want it at all.

Always Red
04-22-2010, 11:27 AM
Smells like Volquez 2009. Still threw hard, lacked command. That's an elbow issue.

maybe

He probably could benefit from an MRI and sometime on the DL.

Cyclone792
04-22-2010, 11:30 AM
Sometimes big guys who are in essence not very athletic have small windows of performance, I find blaming one extra start for something that happens to 98% of the men who throw the ball for a living a little too easy of an excuse.

Pitching is a unnatural act, every pitcher is a throw away from selling insurance.

I don't disagree with anything you mention, but my point is that the Reds took some unnecessary risks with Harang quite repeatedly and those risks likely are playing some role in his performance the last two years.

For me, it's just probabilities. Nobody knows how large or small of a role the abuse is playing, but at the end of the day the organization should give itself the best chance to preserve a pitcher's career. The Reds clearly did not do that with Harang, and now they're stuck paying him a hefty salary for a level of production over the last 23 months that's been just plain bad.

Cyclone792
04-22-2010, 11:35 AM
FYI, here are the splits:


IP ER HR BB SO HR/9 BB/9 K/9 K/BB ERA
Pre 05/25/08 752.33 313 88 177 660 1.05 2.12 7.90 3.73 3.74
Post 05/25/08 289.67 165 55 80 238 1.71 2.49 7.39 2.98 5.13

Falls City Beer
04-22-2010, 11:42 AM
FYI, here are the splits:


IP ER HR BB SO HR/9 BB/9 K/9 K/BB ERA
Pre 05/25/08 752.33 313 88 177 660 1.05 2.12 7.90 3.73 3.74
Post 05/25/08 289.67 165 55 80 238 1.71 2.49 7.39 2.98 5.13


Correlation.

edabbs44
04-22-2010, 11:46 AM
I don't disagree with anything you mention, but my point is that the Reds took some unnecessary risks with Harang quite repeatedly and those risks likely are playing some role in his performance the last two years.

For me, it's just probabilities. Nobody knows how large or small of a role the abuse is playing, but at the end of the day the organization should give itself the best chance to preserve a pitcher's career. The Reds clearly did not do that with Harang, and now they're stuck paying him a hefty salary for a level of production over the last 23 months that's been just plain bad.

Wasn't there an Arroyo smoking gun start that supposedly ruined him as well?

Falls City Beer
04-22-2010, 11:51 AM
And I'm not sure how being cautious with pitchers is going to help pitchers who haven't been abused keep from sucking. The problems that plague this organization are so thorough that no one thing will remedy them. Not abusing pitchers is a solid sentiment, but something but a canard when it comes to dealing with such systemic problems.

MikeS21
04-22-2010, 11:54 AM
I tire of hearing about the issue of the relief stint in San Diego two years ago. Despite the numbers, there was something wrong with Harang BEFORE that relief stint.

If it were just Harang, I think we need to be concerned, but none of the other starters have been sharp. I've not been impressed with ANY starter so far. (Arroyo and Leake haven't been all that impressive to me, either). That leads me to believe it is something else. The point is that the entire starting staff has been awful. And the starting pitching was supposed to be the strong part of this team.

Part of it has to do with weather. It has been unusually cool, even for April. Having Spring Training in 70-80 degree weather and then pitching in 50 degree weather wreaks havoc on pitchers. Another thing is the dry air in Arizona. We were told how the pitchers would struggle in Arizona because of the dry air. We honestly didn't see a whole lot of that. I wonder if Spring Training in Florida is a little closer to game conditions in Cincinnati? Is it the so-called "dead-arm" period?

I think you have to give Harang at least 4-5 more starts. But I also think you need to have this same conversation about all the other starters, as well.

HokieRed
04-22-2010, 11:54 AM
Is Harang more effective at 93-94 or at 90-91? I remember his being best at 90-91. Anybody seen anything in his stride? Is he striding longer to gain velocity but as a result losing the height in his release point necessary to get some downward break on the slider? Anybody got any videos of him?

TRF
04-22-2010, 11:57 AM
Part of it has to do with weather. It has been unusually cool, even for April. Having Spring Training in 70-80 degree weather and then pitching in 50 degree weather wreaks havoc on pitchers. Another thing is the dry air in Arizona. We were told how the pitchers would struggle in Arizona because of the dry air. We honestly didn't see a whole lot of that. I wonder if Spring Training in Florida is a little closer to game conditions in Cincinnati? Is it the so-called "dead-arm" period?

The Cubs rotation except for Z has been doing fine. Maybe it is a first year adjustment period. Cincinnati is certainly more humid that the Phoenix area.

But this loss of control while still throwing hard screams elbow injury to me.

Cyclone792
04-22-2010, 12:03 PM
And I'm not sure how being cautious with pitchers is going to help pitchers who haven't been abused keep from sucking. The problems that plague this organization are so thorough that no one thing will remedy them. Not abusing pitchers is a solid sentiment, but something but a canard when it comes to dealing with such systemic problems.

There are serious systematic problems and they go far deeper than just abusing pitchers. The thing is, not abusing pitchers aspect should be a fairly easy fix. The more difficult fix is obviously overall coaching and development, and the Reds have thoroughly sucked at that too.

I'm fine with giving a guy like Bryan Price plenty of time to work with the guys, and he's a pretty respected pitching coach. I also understand that any positive change he brings won't happen overnight. As you know, though, the overall culture of this organization's ability to develop pitchers has to change from what we've seen in the past. One of the easier changes should hopefully be no longer riding these guys in the ground.

mdccclxix
04-22-2010, 12:04 PM
Is Harang more effective at 93-94 or at 90-91? I remember his being best at 90-91. Anybody seen anything in his stride? Is he striding longer to gain velocity but as a result losing the height in his release point necessary to get some downward break on the slider? Anybody got any videos of him?

In my recollection he was always down in the zone and especially across the plate. He used to get a lot of called strikes at the knees. A lot. If he served up the stuff he routinely does now, over the middle and up, he would take credit for the "mistake". These day's every batter gets 1-3 mistake pitches an ab and he calls it bad luck.

Back when Harang got good, the Reds didn't have anybody that could throw 95 on the staff, so much was said about hitting 93 or 94, which he did occasionally, but you may be right he was mostly 90-92.

As for his slider, that was his money pitch. Last night, it looked terrible. More terrible and less unlucky.

Cyclone792
04-22-2010, 12:08 PM
I tire of hearing about the issue of the relief stint in San Diego two years ago. Despite the numbers, there was something wrong with Harang BEFORE that relief stint.

The relief stint is one part, but it's a part that can't be ignored. It's likely a combination of Narron abuse, the relief stint and other factors we don't know.

My issue with the relief stint is - relative to some other factors at play - it's an easy issue to avoid, and Dusty Baker didn't get the job done.

Falls City Beer
04-22-2010, 12:11 PM
There are serious systematic problems and they go far deeper than just abusing pitchers. The thing is, not abusing pitchers aspect should be a fairly easy fix. The more difficult fix is obviously overall coaching and development, and the Reds have thoroughly sucked at that too.

I'm fine with giving a guy like Bryan Price plenty of time to work with the guys, and he's a pretty respected pitching coach. I also understand that any positive change he brings won't happen overnight. As you know, though, the overall culture of this organization's ability to develop pitchers has to change from what we've seen in the past. One of the easier changes should hopefully be no longer riding these guys in the ground.

The quickest way to short-circuit the abuse of young pitchers is to acquire veterans from other teams. It requires money and prospects to do that, but if the Reds are serious--that's got to be step #1.

bucksfan2
04-22-2010, 12:22 PM
The relief stint is one part, but it's a part that can't be ignored. It's likely a combination of Narron abuse, the relief stint and other factors we don't know.

My issue with the relief stint is - relative to some other factors at play - it's an easy issue to avoid, and Dusty Baker didn't get the job done.

Its 2 years since the relief stint and two off seasons. At some point we have to quit using that as a crutch for Harang. If there was something physically wrong with that then surgery should have been done already.

When all else fails blame Dusty.

Cyclone792
04-22-2010, 12:30 PM
Its 2 years since the relief stint and two off seasons. At some point we have to quit using that as a crutch for Harang. If there was something physically wrong with that then surgery should have been done already.

When all else fails blame Dusty.

Since you clearly didn't read my post at all, I'll simply paste it again.

The relief stint is one part, but it's a part that can't be ignored. It's likely a combination of Narron abuse, the relief stint and other factors we don't know.

My issue with the relief stint is - relative to some other factors at play - it's an easy issue to avoid, and Dusty Baker didn't get the job done.

Of course, if you're happy with a 5+ ERA in nearly 300 innings, then by all means go ahead and give Dusty a free pass on this without even recognizing that his mishap could have played at least some role in Harang's performance.

westofyou
04-22-2010, 12:31 PM
Its 2 years since the relief stint and two off seasons. At some point we have to quit using that as a crutch for Harang. If there was something physically wrong with that then surgery should have been done already.

When all else fails blame Dusty.

Yep, if you look at his splits (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/haranaa01.shtml) by month you'll see a yo-yo performance, not suck, not elite, vanilla... good vanilla though, but still vanilla.

Vanilla tastes better with chocolate, Pujols is chocolate, the Reds have Carob.

Hoosier Red
04-22-2010, 12:34 PM
Aaron to me shows the very thin line between being a great pitcher and a batting practice tee at the major league level. He really hasn't lost "that" much off his fastball, it's not like he just forgot how to throw a slider.

But even when he was going good, his success depended so much on hitting exact spots, but he was able to hit them regularly for 2-3 years.

When he lost just a little bit of velocity, and he lost just a little bite off his slider, and he lost just a bit of the feel for location, (and subsequently lost a lot of confidence) it all contributed to him being very hittable.
Maybe with age, he'll figure out how to re invent himself but I don't have a lot of faith in his ability to do it this year. I say rotate him to middle relief and move Owings up to bigger situations.

forfreelin04
04-22-2010, 12:36 PM
Its 2 years since the relief stint and two off seasons. At some point we have to quit using that as a crutch for Harang. If there was something physically wrong with that then surgery should have been done already.

When all else fails blame Dusty.

I think that's a pretty unfair statement. I don't think Cyclone was saying that at all.

I think most of the board, at least in ORG, have expressed that the Reds have more issues than Dusty. If anything, it's internal thanks to the shuffling of deck chairs in the GM position and the lack of solid ownership. Dusty is a small part of the problem though. If you think any player or this team is any better because of him, your fooling yourself.

Let teh Dust fill out a lineup card for the Yankees, watch him handle the personalities well, and he will win. However, if you want young players to develop or have him play players in a platoon, your barking up the wrong tree by hiring him.

HokieRed
04-22-2010, 12:41 PM
I'm not sure Harang's lost anything off his fastball. If he's throwing consistently 93-94, as he seemed to be opening day, then, as I recall his earlier years, he's actually throwing a little harder than he was, perhaps by changing his body angle a little--and in doing so, losing some of the downbreak on his slider, which seems very flat. What's Don Gullett doing? Maybe he could be brought in as special advisor to Aaron, because, IIRC, it was under Gullett's tutelage that AH first started to make progress--and, to me, it looked like what Gullett especially convinced him of was to throw his fastball more, throw it inside, and give up on that lazy curveball he used to throw for home run.

bucksfan2
04-22-2010, 12:50 PM
I think that's a pretty unfair statement. I don't think Cyclone was saying that at all.

I think most of the board, at least in ORG, have expressed that the Reds have more issues than Dusty. If anything, it's internal thanks to the shuffling of deck chairs in the GM position and the lack of solid ownership. Dusty is a small part of the problem though. If you think any player or this team is any better because of him, your fooling yourself.

Let teh Dust fill out a lineup card for the Yankees, watch him handle the personalities well, and he will win. However, if you want young players to develop or have him play players in a platoon, your barking up the wrong tree by hiring him.

Its pretty obvious that you don't like Dusty. Thats fair there are many players and managers that I particularly don't care for. I think too often we place blame on Dusty and make general assumptions about Dusty that have been proven false during his time as a Red.

How do you know Dusty isn't the guy? He never coaches young players before? He hasn't shown the willingness to stick with young players? I wonder if Boston was barking up the wrong tree when they hired a sub .450 career manager in Terry Francona. I wonder what if Atlanta was barking up the wrong tree when they hired a manager who had already been a failure years before with the same organization.

At some point we are going to have to give up the notion that Dusty ruined Harang's career because of the infamous game in SD. But I have a feeling the Dusty haters just wont let that go. Again there have been two off seasons and two straight second halves of the season in which the Reds weren't in contention. If Harang had anything structurally wrong with his arm, elbow, or anything else it would have been taken care of. He has had 2 off season to rest and come back strong but hasn't. Maybe it isn't Dusty rather father time is creeping up on Harang.

membengal
04-22-2010, 12:54 PM
Re the thread title:

We should see if he's a witch.

edabbs44
04-22-2010, 01:00 PM
At some point we are going to have to give up the notion that Dusty ruined Harang's career because of the infamous game in SD. But I have a feeling the Dusty haters just wont let that go. Again there have been two off seasons and two straight second halves of the season in which the Reds weren't in contention. If Harang had anything structurally wrong with his arm, elbow, or anything else it would have been taken care of. He has had 2 off season to rest and come back strong but hasn't. Maybe it isn't Dusty rather father time is creeping up on Harang.

I honestly thought that it was Arroyo that Narron and Baker ruined. Must have been my mistake.

TRF
04-22-2010, 01:01 PM
does he weigh the same as a duck?

Always Red
04-22-2010, 01:02 PM
But this loss of control while still throwing hard screams elbow injury to me.

I'd say it's more of a whisper.

The scream is loss of velocity, soreness and tightness of the inside elbow or forearm.

Throw him in the machine and get a look. An MRI is a very cheap image to obtain for a multi-billion dollar business (though not for you and me).

forfreelin04
04-22-2010, 01:13 PM
Its pretty obvious that you don't like Dusty. Thats fair there are many players and managers that I particularly don't care for. I think too often we place blame on Dusty and make general assumptions about Dusty that have been proven false during his time as a Red.

How do you know Dusty isn't the guy? He never coaches young players before? He hasn't shown the willingness to stick with young players? I wonder if Boston was barking up the wrong tree when they hired a sub .450 career manager in Terry Francona. I wonder what if Atlanta was barking up the wrong tree when they hired a manager who had already been a failure years before with the same organization.

At some point we are going to have to give up the notion that Dusty ruined Harang's career because of the infamous game in SD. But I have a feeling the Dusty haters just wont let that go. Again there have been two off seasons and two straight second halves of the season in which the Reds weren't in contention. If Harang had anything structurally wrong with his arm, elbow, or anything else it would have been taken care of. He has had 2 off season to rest and come back strong but hasn't. Maybe it isn't Dusty rather father time is creeping up on Harang.

I don't like Dusty for this team as currently assembled. If I'm a Red Sox fan, I welcome him with open arms. Dusty could handle Milton Bradley, Carlos Zambrano, and Roger Clemens all on the same team. That is his strength.

But, his strength becomes a weakness when given players that are unproven. As a manager you need to elicit the most amount of production as possible from what you have. I don't see that. Do you? I see players getting worse, floundering in bad habits, and some on the verge of being sent back to AAA.

Bottom line is, this team is void of enough talent to make it to the playoffs. But if given the right coaching staff, they might be competitive and get over the hump of .500 with better years ahead. In the meantime, I'll shake my head at playing Gomes in Left Field on a regular basis, the endless pinch hitting of Miguel Cairo, batting the SS in the second hole regardless of who it is, batting Phillips 4th, and hairbrain bullpen moves.

There's enough teachable moments on this team that simply are not being addressed.

In regards to Harang, Narron was as much to blame for his arm issues than Baker. I'm certainly not saying Baker sparked the demise of Harang's career but it certainly didn't help.

You could add Joe Torre to your list too. Heck, if you give any manager good pitching you become a genius.

TRF
04-22-2010, 01:20 PM
I'd say it's more of a whisper.

The scream is loss of velocity, soreness and tightness of the inside elbow or forearm.

Throw him in the machine and get a look. An MRI is a very cheap image to obtain for a multi-billion dollar business (though not for you and me).

That would be a shoulder injury. The elbow isn't the driving force behind the speed of pitches. It's the control. In 2009, Volquez was throwing 97 and had no idea where it was going.

forfreelin04
04-22-2010, 01:26 PM
That would be a shoulder injury. The elbow isn't the driving force behind the speed of pitches. It's the control. In 2009, Volquez was throwing 97 and had no idea where it was going.

Dead on TRF.

I was the kid who threw curveballs at 10. When I started my senior year of HS, I could throw in the 80's (which was pretty good for me), but my control was horrendous.

The whisper is in the shoulder.

WVRedsFan
04-22-2010, 01:39 PM
Tough crowd...:)

Aaron Harang is not the only problem with this staff. Everyone is stinking up the show including Arroyo. And the kids - Cueto and Leake have been iffy at best. You cannot single out Harang unless you look at every pitcher on this staff. Arroyo had one good start. Homer has been simply horrible. It's a mess.

edabbs44
04-22-2010, 01:43 PM
from rotoworld


Reds manager Dusty Baker hasn't dismissed the idea of skipping the struggling Aaron Harang in the rotation.

"I don’t know," said Baker. "I haven’t had time to think about it." With an off-day scheduled for Monday, it seems like the perfect time to do it. Something clearly has to give at this point, as Harang is 0-3 with an 8.31 ERA to begin the season.

Spring~Fields
04-22-2010, 01:53 PM
I think you are on to something here. Arroyo and Baley were awesome last year at the end. Harang was doing well until his appendix stopped him and Cueto was pretty good after his rest on the DL.

Seems to me how they were prepared in spring may have something to do with them all going south at once. Seems unlikely that they all would be so awful at the same time unless there was some common denominator. IMO they weren't prepared well. They weren't stretched out and are now in the dead arm period that should have been over by the last week of ST. Now I think its in some of these guys heads (especially Bailey and Cueto) and could be difficult to get them over the hump..

I think that you are too.

But good luck on any of us being told what the plan and ideas that were applied actually were and are. It’s not like one of them is going to say, “well, I thought, so I said, and I told the pitchers and the hitter’s to do x, y, or z, and it hasn’t worked out to well”. The party is not likely to come forward and volunteer such information.

Several of them, all at once, odd, coincidences? They are having some mysterious problems? That many at the same time?

Yes, when one see’s what appears to be several at the same general time, performing below their norms or near norms, it starts to look like what we call a mess. As if some male got an idea and had decided to tinker with the computer, electrical work or the plumbing when he really should not have.

Too many on the pitching side and the offensive side at the same time performing below, even for them. Well you fill in the descriptive terms that you feel best about. Someone, some guy has been tinkering. Of course they are not going to tell us what they thought and what they decided to try with trying this or trying that, what instruction they have given the various player’s. We only know that it hasn’t worked yet.

It’s not just Harang - There was some positives about most of these other guys, where did it go all at once for them? Like a virus that had spread to and infected the various pitchers, who suddenly cannot control their pitches.
Masset, Ondrusek, Harang, Bailey, Cueto, Arroyo, Leake.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/pitching?team=cin&cat=ERA&order=true&season=2010&split=0&seasonType=2&type=reg

Seems like only certain veterans have an immunity.

On the offense, gee, all of a sudden an entire group cannot hit the ball unless they run into a struggling Billingsley type or other’s having their problems.

I know we don’t care for batting average, but, most of the offense has some odd virus too, most of them cannot hit the ball, unless they are named Rolen or Votto.

Too many at one time.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&cat=avg&order=false&season=2010&split=0&seasonType=2&type=reg

Some male has been tinkering. Thinking he needed to improve many of the players and pitchers.

Know any authority type figures on the Reds staff that has exhibited questionable ideas, and bad outcomes? He would be my first suspect.

Hoosier Red
04-22-2010, 01:53 PM
from rotoworld

That maybe one of the most shameful misinterpretations of a quote I've ever seen. Not by you ed, but by rotoworld.

"I donít know," said Baker. "I havenít had time to think about it."
Other things Baker hasn't ruled out according to this quote:

Dropping Brandon Phillips in the batting order
Getting more at bats for Ryan Hanigan
Sending Nick Massett to AAA
Playing 5 infielders and having Drew Stubbs cover Left Center while Jay Bruce covers Right Center
Trading for Adam Dunn
Moving to a 7 man rotation
Global Warming(even with earth day he just hasn't had time to think about it)
Firing Brook Jacoby
Looking into what Bronson Arroyo takes
Blaming Bob Boone

edabbs44
04-22-2010, 01:57 PM
That maybe one of the most shameful misinterpretations of a quote I've ever seen. Not by you ed, but by rotoworld.

"I donít know," said Baker. "I havenít had time to think about it."
Other things Baker hasn't ruled out according to this quote:

Dropping Brandon Phillips in the batting order
Getting more at bats for Ryan Hanigan
Sending Nick Massett to AAA
Playing 5 infielders and having Drew Stubbs cover Left Center while Jay Bruce covers Right Center
Trading for Adam Dunn
Moving to a 7 man rotation
Global Warming(even with earth day he just hasn't had time to think about it)
Firing Brook Jacoby
Looking into what Bronson Arroyo takes
Blaming Bob Boone


Eh, except that if it wasn't in the realm of possibility he would have said it. What he said is manager speak for "We need to buy some time on this one since we have no idea what to do with this guy."

Falls City Beer
04-22-2010, 02:00 PM
I'd caution against the "dead-arm theory" as every single one of the Reds' starters (excepting Leake) have had protracted stretches of awful just like this one on many occasions in the past.

Hoosier Red
04-22-2010, 02:09 PM
Eh, except that if it wasn't in the realm of possibility he would have said it. What he said is manager speak for "We need to buy some time on this one since we have no idea what to do with this guy."

The quote was taken as the first thing he was asked after a 14-6 beat down. We don't even know if he was asked whether Harang would go to the bullpen.
It's certainly different if he was asked, "What are you going to do with Aaron Harang?"

The whole quote on Cnati (http://cnati.com/cincinnati-reds/what-to-do-with-harang-001815/).

"I don't know, I just got beat to death," Baker said. "I haven't had time to think about it."

membengal
04-22-2010, 02:10 PM
does he weigh the same as a duck?

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Too early to know. The proper procedures must be followed.

TRF
04-22-2010, 02:19 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Too early to know. The proper procedures must be followed.

Right!

Does he float?

TheNext44
04-22-2010, 02:55 PM
Just one point of clarification about Harang's relief appearance in SD. Many starting pitchers have had relief appearances similar to that and been fine afterwards. In my opinion, what hurt Harang the most was not skipping him in the rotation after this appearance or at least giving him a few more days rest. It was that one-two punch that did the most damage.

bucksfan2
04-22-2010, 03:17 PM
Just one point of clarification about Harang's relief appearance in SD. Many starting pitchers have had relief appearances similar to that and been fine afterwards. In my opinion, what hurt Harang the most was not skipping him in the rotation after this appearance or at least giving him a few more days rest. It was that one-two punch that did the most damage.

If you believe that the ill-fated relief appearance in SD is the root of Harang's due to injury the I place the blame on Aaron. He has had 2 meaningless second halves of the season as well as two off seasons to get anything surgically corrected. If Aaron is injured and that is why his pitching has been awful as of late then that is one him for not coming forward with an injury. For all I know Harang has never made mention of an arm injury so therefore I can't say that his poor performance is anything but a performance issue.

edabbs44
04-22-2010, 03:22 PM
The quote was taken as the first thing he was asked after a 14-6 beat down. We don't even know if he was asked whether Harang would go to the bullpen.
It's certainly different if he was asked, "What are you going to do with Aaron Harang?"

The whole quote on Cnati (http://cnati.com/cincinnati-reds/what-to-do-with-harang-001815/).

"I don't know, I just got beat to death," Baker said. "I haven't had time to think about it."

If Arroyo was the starter last night and the same thing happened, Baker would have answered differently.

LoganBuck
04-22-2010, 03:27 PM
Have him start taking fertility drugs?

nate
04-22-2010, 03:36 PM
Barring "injury," I would be surprised if he doesn't get until the end of June to make some improvements.

LoganBuck
04-22-2010, 03:36 PM
I always think back to Mark Wohlers when I think of arm injuries. He was throwing hard, he just couldn't locate anything. Low and behold he needed TJ surgery. It is a pattern that repeats itself over and over.

Remember Aaron Harang's forearm strain in 2008? Those tend to be the precursor injuries to TJ surgery. Sure he can pitch without the surgery, but he can't locate anything. Ever wonder why he only pitches away from decent hitters? He can't control anything middle-in. The Reds have to know this. Why continue the charade?

BRM
04-22-2010, 03:42 PM
Barring "injury," I would be surprised if he doesn't get until the end of June to make some improvements.

Agreed. I doubt Walt or Dusty will make any major changes before the end of June.

TRF
04-22-2010, 04:04 PM
I'm a tad confused as why people think Harang had a bad year last year. I mean he stinks on ice right now, but last year, had he not had the appendectomy, he was on pace for 200 IP, 180+ K's. His WHIP was lowering with each start in August. He led the team in K's despite missing at least 7 starts.

Just kills me that all anyone sees is the W-L record.

I think he's injured personally. I don't know when, or how, but he had a long layoff.

Hoosier Red
04-22-2010, 04:11 PM
If Arroyo was the starter last night and the same thing happened, Baker would have answered differently.

This isn't really a big deal but it irritates me because quite honestly it's lazy journalism. And again Ed I don't blame you, but rather rotoworld.

We don't know what question was asked, so when Dusty gives such a vague answer, then anything under the sun hasn't been ruled out.

If he was asked "What can you do to make sure the starting pitching gets better?" "What can you do to get Harang back on track? What can you do about Aaron Harang?" than he isn't giving any answer or ruling out any answer.

What bothers me is that I doubt roto world knows. But "Baker doesn't know what to do about Harang" isn't quite the catchy headline. So they write something that is technically true, but isn't at all what the question or the answer were.

mdccclxix
04-22-2010, 04:46 PM
Here are some quotes I dug up from Harang's golden days. I was looking for video like someone had requested, but this was all I could do.

From 5/4/2006


Added manager Jerry Narron: "He was throwing sliders, cutters, sinkers and four-seamers on both sides of the plate. He did a great job. And, I was very pleased with the way he swung the bat."

This next one was pretty telling as well:


And with those 12 strikeouts -- the most by a Reds starter since Ron Villone's 16 on Sept. 29, 2000 -- Harang climbed past Arroyo and four others including Martinez to take the league lead with 45.

"That's a shocker to me," Harang said. "I've never really considered myself to be a guy who overpowers you. I have to throw my pitches to spots. Everything was working tonight. I was throwing strikes and getting ahead of hitters early."

It has been my opinion that Harang's paycheck killed his fire and competitiveness, not to mention his age and all the losing around here:


Added Harang: "[Arroyo and I] are feeding off each other. We're all trying to one-up the guy from the night before."


The rest of the article was interesting as well, pertaining to the Reds the were, that were to be, and that are no longer:


Rockies starter Josh Fogg brought a 6-1 career record against the Reds into the outing, but not much else. Pitching with the possibility of losing his spot in the rotation, Fogg didn't help his cause much by allowing five runs in 6 1/3 innings. Three of those came on LaRue's 412-foot shot to left in the top of the second that came two batters after Austin Kearns' RBI single.

"Just trying to make solid contact, and it went out of the park," LaRue said. "After [Wednesday] night [when the Reds were shut out 3-0], to bounce back and score some runs was a good feeling."

Fogg retired 11 in a row from the second through the fifth innings, but Dunn unloaded a 454-foot blast to right-center field to lead off the sixth inning -- his 11th of the season and third in five games after an 11-game, 38-at-bat drought. Kearns and Chris Denorfia -- making a start in center field -- had back-to-back RBI hits in a two-run eighth.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060504&content_id=1437840&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Anyway, there's the story, he just ain't got it anymore. What to do? Light a fire under his ass.

membengal
04-22-2010, 04:47 PM
Right!

Does he float?

Precisely. Let's take things one step at a time.

Rojo
04-22-2010, 05:09 PM
Dial back to last July, change the name to Arroyo. The velocity's there, the strikeouts are there. How about a little patience?

mdccclxix
04-22-2010, 05:14 PM
Dial back to last July, change the name to Arroyo. The velocity's there, the strikeouts are there. How about a little patience?

It has worn thin, for sure, even with Baker.

Harang has had bad stretches like these before, no doubt. I'd like to agree we'll see him pull out of "it", whatever "it" is. Overall, he hasn't gotten it done, and that's why he deserves some heat.

TRF
04-22-2010, 05:18 PM
It has worn thin, for sure, even with Baker.

Harang has had bad stretches like these before, no doubt. I'd like to agree we'll see him pull out of "it", whatever "it" is. Overall, he hasn't gotten it done, and that's why he deserves some heat.

For three games. His game against the Cubs was pretty good. OD I can forgive to an extent. His last two outings have been pretty bad.

RedsManRick
04-22-2010, 05:29 PM
In his last two starts:
9.2 IP, 20 H, 14 ER

Last time Harang was this bad in back-to-back games? Aug 10th & 16th, 2008 -- his first games back from the SD relief appearance induced DL trip: 7.1 IP, 16 H, 16 ER

The rest of the season he had 8 starts: 54 IP (nearly 7 per), 2.83 ERA, 38:12 K to BB ratio.

Moral of the story? Chill out. Maybe he's falling off the cliff. But maybe he's just a had a few bad starts, with lots of hits falling in thanks to some bad pitches, some bad luck, and some bad defense combined with a touch of gopheritis. Sure, keep the leash short. But I'm amazed by people's willingness to simply cut him loose in the middle of April.

nate
04-22-2010, 05:34 PM
But I'm amazed by people's willingness to simply cut him loose in the middle of April.

Verily.

edabbs44
04-22-2010, 05:34 PM
In his last two starts:
9.2 IP, 20 H, 14 ER

Last time Harang was this bad in back-to-back games? Aug 10th & 16th, 2008 -- his first games back from the SD relief appearance induced DL trip: 7.1 IP, 16 H, 16 ER

The rest of the season he had 8 starts: 54 IP (nearly 7 per), 2.83 ERA, 38:12 K to BB ratio.

Moral of the story? Chill out. Maybe he's falling off the cliff. But maybe he's just a had a few bad starts, with lots of hits falling in thanks to some bad pitches, some bad luck, and some bad defense combined with a touch of gopheritis. Sure, keep the leash short. But I'm amazed by people's willingness to simply cut him loose in the middle of April.

So the relief outing didn't destroy him?

bucksfan2
04-22-2010, 05:39 PM
In his last two starts:
9.2 IP, 20 H, 14 ER

Last time Harang was this bad in back-to-back games? Aug 10th & 16th, 2008 -- his first games back from the SD relief appearance induced DL trip: 7.1 IP, 16 H, 16 ER

The rest of the season he had 8 starts: 54 IP (nearly 7 per), 2.83 ERA, 38:12 K to BB ratio.

Moral of the story? Chill out. Maybe he's falling off the cliff. But maybe he's just a had a few bad starts, with lots of hits falling in thanks to some bad pitches, some bad luck, and some bad defense combined with a touch of gopheritis. Sure, keep the leash short. But I'm amazed by people's willingness to simply cut him loose in the middle of April.

You may very well be right. I am a little concerned when you consider that Harang himself said he needed a bounce back year and he had something to prove. He came back determined only to throw gopher balls so far this season.

I would skip his next start that way it should give him at least 9 days rest in between starts and if it is a physical issue the Reds can DL him only causing Harang one start. Don't know if thats a good thing or not right now.

RedsManRick
04-22-2010, 06:38 PM
So the relief outing didn't destroy him?

I think Will Carrol uses the best analogy for pitching: it's like smoking. Some people smoke their whole lives and never have serious consequences. Some fade out quicker with a bad cough and asthma. Other's get cancer.

The relief outing was Dusty shoving a big ol' Cuban in Harang's mouth and making him puff for 4 innings. It sure tasted good, but Harang is still experiencing occasional bouts of emphysema.

Raisor
04-22-2010, 06:43 PM
Maybe they should set him free on an iceflow like an old Eskimo.

RedsManRick
04-22-2010, 06:46 PM
You may very well be right. I am a little concerned when you consider that Harang himself said he needed a bounce back year and he had something to prove. He came back determined only to throw gopher balls so far this season.

I would skip his next start that way it should give him at least 9 days rest in between starts and if it is a physical issue the Reds can DL him only causing Harang one start. Don't know if thats a good thing or not right now.

I'm not sure what we expect more rest to fix. I don't think he has a problem with fatigue. If it's a real injury, 5 days more rest won't help. And if it's a mechanical problem, rest won't help that either.

westofyou
04-22-2010, 06:48 PM
Dial back to last July, change the name to Arroyo. The velocity's there, the strikeouts are there. How about a little patience?

Baseball is for patient people, the internet and instant gratification hasn't taught our youth that fact very well.

Rojo
04-22-2010, 07:19 PM
Baseball is for patient people

And Red's baseball should be for REALLY patient people. When the bus is late, I want to fire everyone who works for SF Muni. Would that help? Probably not.

Will M
04-22-2010, 07:39 PM
In his last two starts:
9.2 IP, 20 H, 14 ER

Last time Harang was this bad in back-to-back games? Aug 10th & 16th, 2008 -- his first games back from the SD relief appearance induced DL trip: 7.1 IP, 16 H, 16 ER

The rest of the season he had 8 starts: 54 IP (nearly 7 per), 2.83 ERA, 38:12 K to BB ratio.

Moral of the story? Chill out. Maybe he's falling off the cliff. But maybe he's just a had a few bad starts, with lots of hits falling in thanks to some bad pitches, some bad luck, and some bad defense combined with a touch of gopheritis. Sure, keep the leash short. But I'm amazed by people's willingness to simply cut him loose in the middle of April.

only a small minority of posters (myself included) want to cut him loose. most want to give him some more starts or move him to the pen. it seems most here have more patience than I.

Captain Hook
04-22-2010, 07:51 PM
Keep throwing him out there until someone in AAA beats the door down, and even then maybe keep Harang considering Bailey and Cueto aren't exactly doing spectacular just yet.

I feel the same way.Lets not replace one problem with another.

As far as what to do with Harang I think you have to give him a shot in the BP.The Reds will never just release him.They have to try to get some value out of Aaron and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if AH got it together enough to be a valuable relief pitcher.

Although I believe these things there is still part of me that thinks AH will get his head on straight and have a good year.I know at this point it seems unlikely but I'm still pulling for my favorite Reds pitcher from the last 10 years to be part of a winning team.

Rojo
04-22-2010, 08:55 PM
only a small minority of posters (myself included) want to cut him loose. most want to give him some more starts or move him to the pen. it seems most here have more patience than I.

It's a bit of "push poll". The title implies something needs to be done, NOW.

And who's going to click: "Keep him in the rotation all season no matter how long he performs"? Might as well change it to, "I'm a Harang fanboy with blinders on, impervious to reason".

M2
04-22-2010, 09:04 PM
With a 1.60 team WHIP and 6.03 team ERA, all the Reds can do is hunker down and hope some of the pitchers stop impersonating batting tees. It's going to take about 10 starts before anyone shakes out of this rotation.

Falls City Beer
04-22-2010, 09:52 PM
I'm more than happy not to jettison Harang. What on earth does this team have to lose?

fearofpopvol1
04-23-2010, 02:31 AM
I'm more than happy not to jettison Harang. What on earth does this team have to lose?

I agree. The innings have to get pitched somehow. Is Maloney or or Lehr going to do any better?

Will M
04-23-2010, 02:46 AM
It's a bit of "push poll". The title implies something needs to be done, NOW.

And who's going to click: "Keep him in the rotation all season no matter how long he performs"? Might as well change it to, "I'm a Harang fanboy with blinders on, impervious to reason".

i am not sure what you mean by a 'push poll'. i wanted to see what people thought about Harang after his awful performance this year. i like polls. its a little easier to gauge the feel of what people think by looking at a poll than reading through 156 posts. in this case most people aren't ready to cut bait.

as to the last choice it was added for completions sake. it is a choice the Reds could make after all. i would have added 'phantom DL trip' but i didn't think of it.

Will M
04-23-2010, 02:51 AM
I agree. The innings have to get pitched somehow. Is Maloney or or Lehr going to do any better?

In 40 IP late last year Maloney had a 1.24 WHIP. His ERA was 4.87 due to a few home runs. he has since been working on a sinker. he pitched well in AAA in 2008 & 2009. he is dominating AAA in 2010. I was unhappy he wasn't on the squad out of spring training.
Maloney will do a heck of a lot better than Harang has so far.

fearofpopvol1
04-23-2010, 03:10 AM
In 40 IP late last year Maloney had a 1.24 WHIP. His ERA was 4.87 due to a few home runs. he has since been working on a sinker. he pitched well in AAA in 2008 & 2009. he is dominating AAA in 2010. I was unhappy he wasn't on the squad out of spring training.
Maloney will do a heck of a lot better than Harang has so far.

Maybe if you compared Harang's first three starts to whatever Maloney would put up, but color me skeptical on him pitching better than Harang over a season.

Mario-Rijo
04-23-2010, 03:52 AM
I think you have to have patience with him. I tend to think he is still trying to get accustomed to his new delivery. It's painfully obvious his issue is location, long guys like him already have a problem keeping their mechanics consistent and he used to not have that problem. But with his current extension he just seems to be all over the place with his location. Maybe he needs to shorten it back up just not as much as it was last year. I don't know the right amount of starts but It can't be many before he goes to Louisville (or worse) to straighten this thing out.

Matt700wlw
04-24-2010, 04:01 PM
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100422/SPT04/4230374/1071/Dusty+mum+on+Harang+s+future

Dusty: "I wish you'd quit asking me that," Baker said. "I can't tell you that before I talk to him.

"We're talking about it. But this guy is getting paid handsomely to be a starter. At this point, who do we have to take his place? And we need him to win. We need him."

You need the TEAM to win, Dusty. Aaron is getting paid his chunk of cash whether he's helping the team or hurting the team, so maybe moving him to the bullpen would help more than hurt...Who replaces him? I don't know...pitcing depth is supposed to be a strength, right? Maybe that's a question for those above your pay grade...

"It's four starts," Baker said. "If it was 14 starts, it would be a different thing. It's four starts, man."

But Harang is 1-13 with a 5.42 ERA over his past 20 starts, dating to last season.

"Like I said, we need him as a starter," Baker said.

Benihana
04-25-2010, 02:58 PM
At lest we're not the only ones dealing with this problem. First, Zambrano, then Suppan. Harang next?

www.mlbtraderumors.com


It looks like a trend is developing in the NL Central. A few days after the Cubs moved Carlos Zambrano to the bullpen, Adam McCalvy of MLB.com reports that the Brewers will do the same thing with Jeff Suppan and his $12.5MM salary. As for Zambrano, the Cubs won't use him on back-to-back days for now, tweets MLB.com's Carrie Muskat.

RED VAN HOT
04-25-2010, 09:55 PM
3 more starts before the pen. It looked to me that his velocity is OK, but his slider is flat. I'm not sure the pen is the answer to that problem.

mth123
04-25-2010, 09:59 PM
3 more starts before the pen. It looked to me that his velocity is OK, but his slider is flat. I'm not sure the pen is the answer to that problem.

The pen would mean he could mothball the pitches that aren't working. He won't need them all if he isn't expected to go three or four times through a line-up. That would seem to really limit the number of mistakes he'd get killed on like he is now.

OnBaseMachine
04-28-2010, 03:04 AM
In a 6-2 win over the Astros, Harang went after hitters more often and avoided the disastrous inning or innings that often marred his previous four outings this season. Against Houston, he pitched six innings and allowed two earned runs and eight hits with one walk and six strikeouts.

"He was throwing hard tonight," Astros first baseman Lance Berkman said. "I think he felt good tonight. He certainly located the ball well in the middle of the plate and pitched predominantly with a fastball. When he's right, he's one of the tougher guys in the league."


http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100427&content_id=9627716&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

dougdirt
04-28-2010, 03:27 AM
Aaron Harang's average fastball tonight was 91.7 MPH, topping out at 94.3 MPH.

GAC
04-28-2010, 05:44 AM
I've always believed that what is "wrong" with Harang is mental, leading to mechanical. If some want to also add that he's had some bad luck too then I wouldn't argue. But I think that is a very small part of the equation. But once you get in a "rut", like he has been, it starts to weigh on you internally (emotionally). You then start to tinker, change things, try something new, look for answers, and in the long run the frustration compounds the situation and you make matters worse.

But I've never believed there is anything physically wrong with Aaron.

Good start Aaron. Keep it up.

fearofpopvol1
04-28-2010, 05:45 AM
Harang looked very good tonight. He was super aggressive. He did surrender 8 hits, but honestly, Cabrera botched at least 1 hit and Harang himself botched another that should have been an error. A very good sign for the Reds if he can get back on track. I wonder where the extra velocity is coming from? Or is he maybe finally healthy?

On a separate note, Masset looked excellent tonight too.

reds44
04-28-2010, 06:21 AM
Folks, it was one start. He allowed at least 2 runners to reach base in each of the first 4 innings. Happy we got the win, happy he pitched pretty well, but I'm not expecting much good from him moving forward.

HokieRed
04-28-2010, 09:19 AM
I find one thing Berkman said extremely interesting: that Harang pitched "predominantly with the fastball." It's always been my contention that Harang's breakthrough came when he began to throw the fastball more and to use it for his outpitch. What kind of velocity did he have on his slider? Does anybody have that?

dougdirt
04-28-2010, 12:32 PM
Folks, it was one start. He allowed at least 2 runners to reach base in each of the first 4 innings. Happy we got the win, happy he pitched pretty well, but I'm not expecting much good from him moving forward.

He also "allowed" 2 infield hits during the game too. What if those go as outs? Well now his game looks even better.

dougdirt
04-28-2010, 12:42 PM
I find one thing Berkman said extremely interesting: that Harang pitched "predominantly with the fastball." It's always been my contention that Harang's breakthrough came when he began to throw the fastball more and to use it for his outpitch. What kind of velocity did he have on his slider? Does anybody have that?

Slider averaged 81.9 MPH last night. Average last season was 80.9 MPH.

RedsManRick
04-28-2010, 01:00 PM
He also "allowed" 2 infield hits during the game too. What if those go as outs? Well now his game looks even better.

Don't forget the broken bat bloop double 2 inches inside the foul line... he wasn't exactly hit hard.

Doug, do you know what his GB/LD/FB breakdown was last night?

dougdirt
04-28-2010, 01:09 PM
Doug, do you know what his GB/LD/FB breakdown was last night?

1 Bunt
3 FB
8 GB
6 LD

At least according to the GameDay classifications. Those will sometimes differ from what BIS reports, but usually pretty close.

_Sir_Charles_
04-28-2010, 02:29 PM
I'm not sure where you got those velocities Doug, but FSHouston had him considerably higher all night long. Pretty regularly at 92-94 and hitting 95 several times. Not sure which is right though.

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 02:34 PM
Good Sign:

Harang looked like the Harang of old. More hits that you like, but he buckled down with men on base, and never really got hit hard.

Cautionary Sign:

It was against the Astros, who have been terrible at the plate this year.

.282 .335 .618

64 OPS+ as a team

Averaging 3.2 runs a game, almost a run and half below the league average.

_Sir_Charles_
04-28-2010, 02:40 PM
Good Sign:

Harang looked like the Harang of old. More hits that you like, but he buckled down with men on base, and never really got hit hard.

Cautionary Sign:

It was against the Astros, who have been terrible at the plate this year.

.282 .335 .618

64 OPS+ as a team

Averaging 3.2 runs a game, almost a run and half below the league average.

In regards to the Astros numbers...take that with a grain of salt. I think everybody thought the Astros would be decent offensively. And since that 0-fer start to the season, the bats have picked up. So looking at the whole season for them is quite deceptive IMO.

dougdirt
04-28-2010, 02:41 PM
I'm not sure where you got those velocities Doug, but FSHouston had him considerably higher all night long. Pretty regularly at 92-94 and hitting 95 several times. Not sure which is right though.

Got mine from Pitch F/X data, which I trust a lot more than a stadium gun.

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 02:43 PM
In regards to the Astros numbers...take that with a grain of salt. I think everybody thought the Astros would be decent offensively. And since that 0-fer start to the season, the bats have picked up. So looking at the whole season for them is quite deceptive IMO.

They do have Berkman back, and Harang kept him relatively quiet last night. So that's another good sign. :)

(And the real reason I posted that was just to show how god awful the Astros offense has been, to make us Reds fans feel a little better :))

RedsManRick
04-28-2010, 02:45 PM
1 Bunt
3 FB
8 GB
6 LD

At least according to the GameDay classifications. Those will sometimes differ from what BIS reports, but usually pretty close.

Small samples are obviously useless for predictive purposes, but perhaps I was wrong in saying he didn't get hit hard. Disregarding the bunt for obvious reasons, that's 6 of 19 BIP (31.6%) -- not so hot. Though given his HR rate so far this year, the GB/FB rate is a pleasant sight.

REDREAD
04-28-2010, 02:50 PM
I think there's some overreaction here.

Yep, Harang has been a disappointment.
Thankfully, we are only stuck with him for one more year.

We aren't exactly brimming with pitching depth.. I mean, does anyone really expect Malony/AAA scrubs to be more effective over the remaining 160 IP or whatever that Harang is likely to give us?

Someone has got to eat the innings. At this point, we're kind of stuck with leaving the Harang in the rotation and hope he figures things out. Remember, every season there's a period where half the board wants to DFA Arroyo, then we love him again :lol:

We also have to think about the longterm here. Harang is fighting for his career here. If the Reds toss him into the pen, is that going to make it attractive to potential free agents (or trade targets with no-trade clauses, etc) Harang has been loyal to us, it's time for us to be loyal to him. It's not as if we are going to contend or we have someone substantially better than him to step in.

Malony will get his time again. We aren't likely to make it through the season without someone going on the DL.

TRF
04-28-2010, 02:53 PM
I think there's some overreaction here.

Yep, Harang has been a disappointment.
Thankfully, we are only stuck with him for one more year.

We aren't exactly brimming with pitching depth.. I mean, does anyone really expect Malony/AAA scrubs to be more effective over the remaining 160 IP or whatever that Harang is likely to give us?

Someone has got to eat the innings. At this point, we're kind of stuck with leaving the Harang in the rotation and hope he figures things out. Remember, every season there's a period where half the board wants to DFA Arroyo, then we love him again :lol:

We also have to think about the longterm here. Harang is fighting for his career here. If the Reds toss him into the pen, is that going to make it attractive to potential free agents (or trade targets with no-trade clauses, etc) Harang has been loyal to us, it's time for us to be loyal to him. It's not as if we are going to contend or we have someone substantially better than him to step in.

Malony will get his time again. We aren't likely to make it through the season without someone going on the DL.

I think Harang will be fine going forward, but don't discount Matt Maloney. In fact I'm amazed at how many do. All the guy has done is produce. And his season so far has been very, very good. Can't wait until that blister heals.

reds44
04-28-2010, 02:54 PM
He also "allowed" 2 infield hits during the game too. What if those go as outs? Well now his game looks even better.
And it's still one start.

_Sir_Charles_
04-28-2010, 02:58 PM
Got mine from Pitch F/X data, which I trust a lot more than a stadium gun.

I kinda figured. Well, regardless of the velocity...he looked VERY good last night. :thumbup:

REDREAD
04-28-2010, 03:08 PM
FYI, here are the splits:


IP ER HR BB SO HR/9 BB/9 K/9 K/BB ERA
Pre 05/25/08 752.33 313 88 177 660 1.05 2.12 7.90 3.73 3.74
Post 05/25/08 289.67 165 55 80 238 1.71 2.49 7.39 2.98 5.13


It's hard to say for sure. Harang had a pretty good April, but in the four starts before May 25, 2 were "quality" and 2 were not. Did the decline begin before May 25?

After May 25, through the end of August 2008 .. 5 quality starts, 6 unquality starts.

Then his first 4 starts in September were quality starts, but his final two were not.

IMO, Harang is struggling with consistency. I don't think there's a clear cause and effect to that bullpen appearance on May 25, because since May 2008, he was giving the team a quality start roughly 50% of the time. You can go ahead and pull some more descriptive stats, but it's hard to argue that he was pretty effective at times in 2008. He just could not do it on a consistent basis.


Here's his 2008 game log

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?n1=haranaa01&t=p&year=2008

OnBaseMachine
04-28-2010, 03:10 PM
C. Trent brought up an interesting point on his website today. Look at what Dave Duncan has done for Brad Penny so far. Now imagine how much it could bite the Reds in the butt if Dave Duncan gets his hands on Aaron Harang next season. I think if Harang leaves Cincinnati he'll end up in San Diego or Los Angeles, but ya never know.

Roy Tucker
04-28-2010, 03:18 PM
I think there's some overreaction here.



In RZ? No!!!

REDREAD
04-28-2010, 03:24 PM
I think Harang will be fine going forward, but don't discount Matt Maloney. In fact I'm amazed at how many do. All the guy has done is produce. And his season so far has been very, very good. Can't wait until that blister heals.


I really hope Malony can be a productive ML pitcher. I'm just trying to be realistic. I really doubt he'd outperform Harang for the rest of the season.
I still think Malony will get his chance at some point this year if he deserves it.

Falls City Beer
04-28-2010, 03:40 PM
Brad Penny was and is a very good pitcher. I don't think, in this case, Duncan's performed any miracles.

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 03:45 PM
Brad Penny was and is a very good pitcher. I don't think, in this case, Duncan's performed any miracles.

Brad Penny has been a good pitcher but has had problems with consistency. If he puts together a full season like he has, you can probably give some credit to Duncan. If he has a fall off at some point this summer, then it's just Penny being Penny. Much like good Kyle Lohse and bad Kyle Lohse, both of which the Cardinals have.

edabbs44
04-28-2010, 03:46 PM
I think Harang will be fine going forward, but don't discount Matt Maloney. In fact I'm amazed at how many do. All the guy has done is produce. And his season so far has been very, very good. Can't wait until that blister heals.

Maloney is a stud in the minors.

OnBaseMachine
04-28-2010, 03:48 PM
Aaron Harang was a good pitcher too.

Brad Penny posted a 6.27 ERA in 94.2 innings in 2008 and followed it up with a 5.61 ERA in Boston last season (and overall 4.88 ERA in 173.1 innings).

Harang and Penny have had similar careers.

Aaron Harang - 1,367.2 IP, 2.5 BB/9, 7.5 K/9, 103 ERA+

Brad Penny - 1,662.1 IP, 2.9 BB/9, 6.3 K/9, 105 ERA+

Falls City Beer
04-28-2010, 03:54 PM
Brad Penny's problem has been health.

TRF
04-28-2010, 03:57 PM
Brad Penny's problem has been health.

Harang's hasn't?

please. and for all the complaining of last year's stats, remember he was on pace for 200+ ip and 180+ K's his WHIP and ERA were trending down.

Personally, I think the guy had too much time off the mound from the end of last year to the start of this one.

Falls City Beer
04-28-2010, 04:00 PM
Harang's hasn't?

please. and for all the complaining of last year's stats, remember he was on pace for 200+ ip and 180+ K's his WHIP and ERA were trending down.

Personally, I think the guy had too much time off the mound from the end of last year to the start of this one.

I think Harang's been the better pitcher over the course of his career, honestly. My only point was that Duncan shouldn't be getting a lot of credit for what Penny's doing. Ryan Franklin? Maybe. Penny? Not really.

TRF
04-28-2010, 04:19 PM
Well, Duncan took a perfectly average pitcher like Carpenter and somehow mad him into one of the best pitchers in the NL.

I think he could do a lot for Harang, and i think he's doing a lot for Penny.

Falls City Beer
04-28-2010, 04:27 PM
Well, Duncan took a perfectly average pitcher like Carpenter and somehow mad him into one of the best pitchers in the NL.

I think he could do a lot for Harang, and i think he's doing a lot for Penny.

He might. I think it's possible that Harang gets back to where he was without any real help.

And if Harang wants to sign with St. Louis after this year, I won't fear him as a Reds' fan.

HokieRed
04-29-2010, 12:01 AM
What we ought to fear in St. Louis is the depth in that staff. If you want to get depressed, check out Jaime Garcia's night tonight and work so far this year. Talk about a 24 year old prospect pitcher.

WebScorpion
04-30-2010, 12:41 PM
What we ought to fear in St. Louis is the depth in that staff. If you want to get depressed, check out Jaime Garcia's night tonight and work so far this year. Talk about a 24 year old prospect pitcher.
I see your Garcia with a Mike Leake and raise you an Aroldis Chapman. Fear nothing! :D :ughmamoru

Always Red
05-02-2010, 09:56 PM
Can we put to rest the thought that Harang has an elbow that is screaming injury? :)

I thought he pitched pretty well today against what is probably the best team in the NL.

The bullpen, strength of the team last year, is the problem now (along with the rather anemic offense that most all of us expected).

What the heck is wrong with Nick Masset this year?

mth123
05-02-2010, 10:11 PM
Can we put to rest the thought that Harang has an elbow that is screaming injury? :)

I thought he pitched pretty well today against what is probably the best team in the NL.

The bullpen, strength of the team last year, is the problem now (along with the rather anemic offense that most all of us expected).

What the heck is wrong with Nick Masset this year?

Like the starters before him, I think its preparation. These guys didn't get enough IP in Spring to get strong and work on command. Masset with only 7.1 IP in Spring and probably most of those were late enough in the game where he wasn't really facing good hitters. The team was trying too hard to look at too many guys and short changed just about everybody when it comes to prep time. Last year Masset prepared as a starter and worked out some issues in Spring.

I think a phantom DL trip with a rehab assignment to stretch this guy out is called for.

Ghosts of 1990
05-02-2010, 11:56 PM
Carpenter's mound opponent, Harang, did not have a bad outing but still saw his record fall to 1-4. He allowed seven hits and three runs in his six innings of work, did not walk a batter and struck out six.

"He outpitched me today," Harang said. "We always battle when we face each other."

Uh, yea Aaron, except you always come out on bottom of those 'battles'.

I'm sick and tired of Harang never coming out and saying it.... when he was getting lit earlier in the year, excuses. Head to head vs. Carp he's now like 2-7 with an ERA about three runs higher. It is what it is. Carp is and always has been on another level with the likes of Aaron Harang.

Aaron, you've won two out of your last 25 starts. You're lucky to be wearing a big league uniform, let alone going against #1's like Chris Carpenter. Granted, you're better then Paul Wilson, but not by much.

I've had enough of Harang. I've especially had enough of the way he dances around the issue in interviews. He isn't good and needs to pitch better or come out and admit it.

Ron Madden
05-03-2010, 12:04 AM
He really didn't pitch bad today. I thought he had a pretty good game.

JMHO

VR
05-03-2010, 12:15 AM
Harang had great stuff today, very solid. He re-instilled a bit of confidence that he still has what it takes. That said, his offense threw up another goose egg for him. I really just don't get that.

I've always said....the best thing for Harang would be for someone to walk up to him in the 1st inning and punch him in the sack and tell him the other team thinks he is a [wimp].

dougdirt
05-03-2010, 12:16 AM
Uh, yea Aaron, except you always come out on bottom of those 'battles'.

I'm sick and tired of Harang never coming out and saying it.... when he was getting lit earlier in the year, excuses. Head to head vs. Carp he's now like 2-7 with an ERA about three runs higher. It is what it is. Carp is and always has been on another level with the likes of Aaron Harang.

Aaron, you've won two out of your last 25 starts. You're lucky to be wearing a big league uniform, let alone going against #1's like Chris Carpenter. Granted, you're better then Paul Wilson, but not by much.

I've had enough of Harang. I've especially had enough of the way he dances around the issue in interviews. He isn't good and needs to pitch better or come out and admit it.
Sigh....

Harang goes out and puts up a 4.00 ERA today with no walks and 6 strikeouts and we are talking about how he is lucky to be wearing a big league uniform?

Spring~Fields
05-03-2010, 12:23 AM
Sigh....

Harang goes out and puts up a 4.00 ERA today with no walks and 6 strikeouts and we are talking about how he is lucky to be wearing a big league uniform?

I know that you were addressing the other comment.

But no one read any yapp from me about Harang today, I thought that he pitched pretty well against them. I honestly thought that he did well against a weaker Houston and would go backwards today, I was wrong, he did not go backwards.

I don’t think that I will ever change my mind as partially blaming a lack of run support at various times for a Harang or an Arroyo. It is not the cure all, but it, additional run support would help.

CTA513
05-03-2010, 12:30 AM
Uh, yea Aaron, except you always come out on bottom of those 'battles'.

I'm sick and tired of Harang never coming out and saying it.... when he was getting lit earlier in the year, excuses. Head to head vs. Carp he's now like 2-7 with an ERA about three runs higher. It is what it is. Carp is and always has been on another level with the likes of Aaron Harang.

Aaron, you've won two out of your last 25 starts. You're lucky to be wearing a big league uniform, let alone going against #1's like Chris Carpenter. Granted, you're better then Paul Wilson, but not by much.

I've had enough of Harang. I've especially had enough of the way he dances around the issue in interviews. He isn't good and needs to pitch better or come out and admit it.


Carpenter usually wins because hes a better pitcher and is surrounded by a better team.

HokieRed
05-03-2010, 12:32 AM
Carpenter usually wins because hes a better pitcher and is surrounded by a better team.

Exactly. Harang did his job well today. Neither the offense nor the bullpen did theirs.

Will M
05-03-2010, 12:38 AM
6 starts:
4 ok
2 awful

ERA 6.68
whip 1.50

when he's good he's really just sort of ok.
when he's bad he's really bad.

I suspect Aaron finishes the year here then has his contract bought out for 2011 (i think its a $2M buyout if the team declines the 2011 option).

its possible the Reds pay the vast majority of his contract & buyout and he gets shipped somewhere midseason (and replaced by one of the lefties currently in AAA).

fearofpopvol1
05-03-2010, 03:12 AM
Harang was fine today. 3 runs over 6 innings...can't ask for too much more than that. How about the offense? The ones that got shutout and managed 3 hits over 9 innings? Yeah, this was not Harang's fault...this was all the bats fault. They didn't even make it competitive.

GAC
05-03-2010, 06:02 AM
Aaron, you've won two out of your last 25 starts.

Actually, that's not true. He's had 25 starts dating back to last May 9th, in which he has won 4 games, and had 6 no decisions. And in 8 of those losses he has given up 3 ERs or less.

No I'm not totally defending Harang's performance over the last couple of years. It's been very sub-par, and he's had some real stinkers too. Not the Harang we have seen in the past.

I just think you are being overly critical of the guy AFTER his last two outings have been pretty good and encouraging. He's had 6 starts this season, and 4 of them were QS IMO. Two were real stinkers.

And in two of those starts he was facing Carpenter and the Cards. He pitched 5 innings on OD and gave up 3 ERS on 5 hits. Yesterday he pitched 6 solid innings, gave up 3 ERs on 7 hits and walked 0. He gave us two good performances on 4/5 (Cubs) and 4/27 (Astros), and in between those had two stinkers vs Fla. and LA.

What has hurt Harang is the HR.

And you're saying he doesn't belong in a big league uniform? Kinda overly harsh IMO. And the below comment by you confirms that IMO....


you're better then Paul Wilson, but not by much.

No comparison whatsoever.

Paul Wilson.... http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/wilsopa02.shtml

Aaron Harang.... http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/haranaa01.shtml

TRF
05-03-2010, 10:41 AM
Well I suggested he had an issue with the elbow based on the fact that his velocity was fine, but his control was not there. I also posited that it could be due to the fact that his layoff from pitching was longer than everyone else due to the appendix.

I am now going with my second theory. :)

The control seems to be coming back, His last two starts, 3.75 ERA 12K's 12 IP, but he's been hittable, .324 BAA. He's not however walking guys, and his K/9 for the season is climbing, up to 7.22 now.

I imagine it'll take 3-4 more starts like his last two with no shellackings mixed in for his numbers to get back to normal.

Ghosts of 1990
05-03-2010, 11:28 AM
No comparison whatsoever.

Paul Wilson.... http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/wilsopa02.shtml

Aaron Harang.... http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/haranaa01.shtml

I don't know.

Wilson 2003/2004 is a lot like Aaron Harang present day.

TRF
05-03-2010, 11:33 AM
I don't know.

Wilson 2003/2004 is a lot like Aaron Harang present day.

not even close. Harang K's 2 more per 9, walks fewer. HR rate is the same. And Harang is probably a lock to throw 200+ innings.

Nothing similar at all in my mind.

nate
05-03-2010, 11:41 AM
I don't know.

Wilson 2003/2004 is a lot like Aaron Harang present day.

Other than "a' being the second letter of their names, what way are they similar?

Please show your work!

:cool:

Falls City Beer
05-03-2010, 11:44 AM
Yeah, I don't see the Harang/Wilson comparison. But that's less praise for Harang than it is total loathing of Wilson.

RedsManRick
05-03-2010, 12:26 PM
This pretty much sums up Harang's season for me:

ERA: 6.68. Ouch. Something's gotta be going wrong for him...

FIP: 5.08. That's a little better; perhaps he's been unlucky. But the 24.8% LD suggests he's just getting hit hard. Still, you have to believe a 61.1% LOB rate will improve. Nobody allows that many runners to score.

xFIP: 3.83. Unless they're giving up a ridiculous amount of HR that is. 1.87 HR/9 and 19.4% HR/FB... Woah.

His velocity is up and he's missing bats. But he's not throwing nearly as many strikes as he has in the past, by far. It's hard to be effective from behind in the count, as his HR rate shows. When he's not missing bats, he's getting killed. I'm optimistic that he'll continue to regress, but I wouldn't be the farm on it. I'd set the over/under for his end of season ERA at 4.75.

Unless he starts attacking hitters more and getting ahead in the count, he won't be able to use his breaking stuff and he's going to get eaten alive.

HokieRed
05-03-2010, 03:28 PM
I buy the analysis, RMR, but from what I've seen his breaking stuff is the problem. But I didn't see his last two starts. I did see two others, one at the game, the other on TV. Slider flat, not much break; curve ball rolling.

GAC
05-04-2010, 05:35 AM
This pretty much sums up Harang's season for me:

ERA: 6.68. Ouch. Something's gotta be going wrong for him...

FIP: 5.08. That's a little better; perhaps he's been unlucky. But the 24.8% LD suggests he's just getting hit hard. Still, you have to believe a 61.1% LOB rate will improve. Nobody allows that many runners to score.

xFIP: 3.83. Unless they're giving up a ridiculous amount of HR that is. 1.87 HR/9 and 19.4% HR/FB... Woah.

His velocity is up and he's missing bats. But he's not throwing nearly as many strikes as he has in the past, by far. It's hard to be effective from behind in the count, as his HR rate shows. When he's not missing bats, he's getting killed. I'm optimistic that he'll continue to regress, but I wouldn't be the farm on it. I'd set the over/under for his end of season ERA at 4.75.

Unless he starts attacking hitters more and getting ahead in the count, he won't be able to use his breaking stuff and he's going to get eaten alive.

You've pretty much nailed in RMR.

Location, location, location (inconsistent) has been Aaron's problem IMO. Again, look at the increase of HRs given up. And that's why I've always held the position it wasn't physical (injury) or a tired arm; but that it simply mental and mechanical.

If the guy was hurt, or had a tired arm, then I don't think you'd see him going out there any giving any solid pitching performances at all. He would continue to get worse and worse on that plane IMO.

And this offense sure is no friend of our pitching staff either.

Captain Hook
05-09-2010, 03:44 AM
Funny thing about this thread is, it will be relevant for the rest of the year regardless of if he....

1.pitches completely terrible
2.pitches just below average
3.pitches ok(like he's doing now)
4.pitches good
5.reverts back to his old self and becomes the ace of the staff.

The most puzzling thing about Aaron is that I have no idea what to expect from him.All above options are very possible IMO.

Phhhl
05-09-2010, 03:52 AM
I don't think enough clamor has been made over the ballgame Aaron pitched tonight. He looked like the Aaron Harang of Olde. I know all glory is fleeting and one start does not mean a whole lot in a sea of arbitrary signifigance, but his fastball consistently hit 92 tonight and his offspeed stuff kept the Cubs off balance all night. If this team is going to win, it needs Harang and Arroyo to contribute quality starts more often than not. The Cubs are a quality lineup, so if this was a crucial divisional start for Harang he seemed to pass with flying colors.

I was at the ballgame tonight sitting in the left field bleachers. When Aaron finished his last warmup before tonight's start, the entire bullpen formed a gauntlet for him to pass through and he did a very demonstrative fist pump with each and every member, with several of them offering a hug as he and Hanigan left for the first base dugout. There were smiles all around, from Daniel Ray to Nick Masset and CoCo. I have probably attended 200 major league ballgames and pay careful attention to everything that happens on the field before, during and after the first pitch. But, I have never seen a team gravitate around a guy with more sincerity before going out to face a division rival in an important ballgame like this one. It actually gave me chills to see that. This teams knows how important Aaron Harang is to the success of this team. There is heightened awareness among the members of the team, and not just about what effects them individually. It left me feeling that the team wants to do whatever it takes to win, that the time is now.

You can't quantify what I am talking about with statistics. But, if there such a thing as chemistry, this team seems to have it. It was so much fun watching Cubs fans leaving GAB tonight wondering if their overpaid squad are even remotely as close to a playoff berth as the Reds. You could see it on their faces.

Guacarock
05-09-2010, 05:27 AM
Great observations on your part -- telling and true.

The players all sense that transition is occurring. Before the end of the season, either Harang or Arroyo, maybe both of them, will be gone, especially if the team craters.

Interesting that Harang has the bullpen rooting for him. Of course, if he succeeds in rediscovering his old groove, he might be the one whose ticket out gets punched quicker. Then again, with Leake looking reliable, the management might decide that Arroyo's fickety finesse is more expendable.

However you slice it, someone in the rotation's got to go to make room the second-half of the season so there's flex to bring up Chapman/Wood/Maloney or to reintroduce Volquez. I could be wrong, but I don't see the Reds forcing Cueto or Bailey out of the door just yet -- not with Bailey still pre-arb in '11 and Cueto entering his first year of arbitration next season.

Even if we only hover around .500 through May and June, this looming, defining, crunchtime, mid-season choice will make it worth watching the team's progress and the individual performances of Harang and Arroyo.

I'm not a bookie, but I'd place the odds of retaining both of them as "Fat Chance." The lingering questions to resolve: Whether one of them gets his option renewed for '11 to anchor an otherwise young, emerging rotation and, if so, who's it going to be?

GAC
05-09-2010, 06:12 AM
Location, location, location. And Aaron was hitting his spots, and especially keeping the ball down. And irregardless of the Cubs early struggles, they are one of the top tier offense teams in the NL right now.

Will M
05-09-2010, 02:40 PM
You've pretty much nailed in RMR.

Location, location, location (inconsistent) has been Aaron's problem IMO. Again, look at the increase of HRs given up. And that's why I've always held the position it wasn't physical (injury) or a tired arm; but that it simply mental and mechanical.

If the guy was hurt, or had a tired arm, then I don't think you'd see him going out there any giving any solid pitching performances at all. He would continue to get worse and worse on that plane IMO.

And this offense sure is no friend of our pitching staff either.

it seems to me that nearly every pitch Harang throws is low & on the outside part of the plate. he doesn't pitch inside nor does he throw up in the zone at times to keep hitters off balance. if the hitter knows where the pitch is going to be every time thats a big advantage to the hitter. anybody else notice this?

membengal
05-09-2010, 02:54 PM
Santo, thanks for the really great post and letting us in on what you observed. That is really interesting information.

OnBaseMachine
05-09-2010, 02:57 PM
Nice post, Santo. Thanks for the info.

Will M
05-24-2010, 11:30 PM
since his back to back disasters 4/15 & 4/21 Harang has the following stats:

6 starts
37 IP
19 ER
7 BB / 33 K
46 hits (!)
5 HR
whip 1.43
ERA 4.62

IF Harang can keep this up then he is a servicable BOR starter. However, sprinkle a couple of 5 IP with 8 ER stinkbombs in the mix & he is DFA material. The numbers point out what my eyes tell me: he can still strike out guys but he is very hittable. add this to his flyball tendencies & you have the recipe for a disaster.

Degenerate39
05-25-2010, 12:47 AM
What happened to the Harang from a few years ago?

VR
05-25-2010, 01:03 AM
What happened to the Harang from a few years ago?

The league figured out it was their plate, not his.

I'm more amazed at his suddenly found stick than his inability to get guys out.

fearofpopvol1
05-25-2010, 06:08 AM
I think he'll be serviceable and better than replacement level. Overpaid? Yeah, maybe a bit. But certainly valuable and he is only signed through the rest of this year. He didn't pitch bad today. Not great, but not bad either.

cincrazy
05-25-2010, 08:26 AM
I think he'll be serviceable and better than replacement level. Overpaid? Yeah, maybe a bit. But certainly valuable and he is only signed through the rest of this year. He didn't pitch bad today. Not great, but not bad either.

I'm not sure I can agree with that statement. While through 6 innings his numbers looked ok, the Pirates really smacked him around the park, but luckily for Harang most of the balls were hit right at someone. He had a DP ball in the 1st inning, and I'm not sure he had a 1-2-3 inning the entire game. It finally caught up to him in the 7th, as the balls that were going right to outfielders earlier in the game ended up falling in for hits.

HokieRed
05-25-2010, 09:36 AM
Figure out some way to turn him into Roy Oswalt.

bucksfan2
05-25-2010, 09:37 AM
I'm not sure I can agree with that statement. While through 6 innings his numbers looked ok, the Pirates really smacked him around the park, but luckily for Harang most of the balls were hit right at someone. He had a DP ball in the 1st inning, and I'm not sure he had a 1-2-3 inning the entire game. It finally caught up to him in the 7th, as the balls that were going right to outfielders earlier in the game ended up falling in for hits.

The issue I saw with Harang early in the game was he was getting beat in pitchers counts. Cedeno of all people hit a HR on a 0-2 or 1-2 pitch that was right down the middle. I think Young hit a gapper on a 0-2 or 1-2 pitch. I think when Harang is on he is hitting his spots, when he is off he is missing his spots and leaving pitches over the heart of the plate. He didn't have good stuff last night, but good enough stuff to beat the Pirates.