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TheNext44
04-21-2010, 10:49 PM
I think the Reds play so far has shown how important defense is to winning. Unfortunately it's because the Reds defense has been so bad.

What about the Reds putting their money where their mouth is and really putting a team on the field that is all about defense? These guys are hitting enough to justify their defense, so might as well go all in and put the best defensive team out their and take their chances that way.

This is what I propose:

Start Janish at SS
Move either Cabrera or Cairo
Call up Heisey
Platoon Heisey and Dickerson in LF
Move Gomes to the bench

The Reds would be in trouble for one game if two infielders got hurt, but I bet Hanigan could play 3B for a few innings if he had to (Javy did it). I'd rather deal with that than with this crappy defense from SS and LF on a day to day basis.

Lineup:

Stubbs
Heisey/Dickerson (both have speed, so Baker will bat them second)
Votto
Phillips
Rolen
Bruce
Hernandez/Hanigan
Janish

Bench:

Gomes
Nix
Heisey/Dickerson
Cabrera/Cairo
Hernadez/Hanigan

I think that's a better lineup than the Reds have now, a better bench, and a much better defense on the field.

This team does not compete with Gomes in LF and Cabrera at SS.

OnBaseMachine
04-21-2010, 11:35 PM
I'm in favor of anything that gets Orlando Cabrera and Jonny Gomes out of the field.

Homer Bailey
04-21-2010, 11:45 PM
Heisey is not even close to ready to play in the majors IMO.

Will M
04-22-2010, 12:18 AM
I think the Reds play so far has shown how important defense is to winning. Unfortunately it's because the Reds defense has been so bad.

What about the Reds putting their money where their mouth is and really putting a team on the field that is all about defense? These guys are hitting enough to justify their defense, so might as well go all in and put the best defensive team out their and take their chances that way.

This is what I propose:

Start Janish at SS
Move either Cabrera or Cairo
Call up Heisey
Platoon Heisey and Dickerson in LF
Move Gomes to the bench

The Reds would be in trouble for one game if two infielders got hurt, but I bet Hanigan could play 3B for a few innings if he had to (Javy did it). I'd rather deal with that than with this crappy defense from SS and LF on a day to day basis.

Lineup:

Stubbs
Heisey/Dickerson (both have speed, so Baker will bat them second)
Votto
Phillips
Rolen
Bruce
Hernandez/Hanigan
Janish

Bench:

Gomes
Nix
Heisey/Dickerson
Cabrera/Cairo
Hernadez/Hanigan

I think that's a better lineup than the Reds have now, a better bench, and a much better defense on the field.

This team does not compete with Gomes in LF and Cabrera at SS.

1. I totally agree with Janish to SS & Cabrera to the bench move. Funny how the Reds were good late last year with the strong defense. then Walt/Dusty decided to put offense (i use the term loosely) on the field over defense in 2010.

2. IMO the CF/LF situation should be handled as such:

Dickerson/Stubbs platoon in CF. If (big if) Stubbs hits against the RHP he does see (such as a RH reliever replacing a LH starter or against a RH starter if Dickerson is banged up or sick) then he gets more playing time. Until then its a straight platoon.

Gomes's bat could make up for his poor defense ONLY vs LH starters. while he isn't an automatic out vs a RH pitcher his bat is no where near good enough vs a RH pitcher to make up for his glove. Heisey & Frazier are stinking up AAA. if they get it together they could replace Gomes. IMO right now he is the best we have in LF vs a RH starter.

Who plays LF vs a RH starter? well (ducks) Nix I guess. Dorn maybe. Alonso eventually.

So...
1B Votto
2B Phillips
SS Janish
3B Rolen
LF Nix or Dorn platooning with Gomes
CF Dickerson platooning with Stubbs
RF Bruce
C RH/RH

other than Gomes starting ~40 games this is a very good defensive team. sure would help our pitchers. and what exactly is the offensive dropoff? well right now Janish is actually hitting. Cabrera isn't. and Nix is just as good as Gomes vs a RH pitcher. so defense better. offense maybe better, certainly not worse. its a win win!

VR
04-22-2010, 01:21 AM
Gomes this year is making Adam Dunn look like a young Ken Griffey Junior out there.

No arm, no legs, no head in the field. He's our quintriplegic left fielder.

Guacarock
04-22-2010, 03:33 AM
There's no facet of the game where this team currently excels. The offense is off-kilter, the defense erratic, the starting pitchers can't go past 5 or 6 innings, and the bullpen has an implosion pretty much every night.

Dusty keeps talking like he's not fazed, but he's got to be going crazy -- because nothing's going right, there are brush fires all over the place, and no sanctuaries from what's looking like a brutal and devastating firestorm. If the firestorm isn't quelled in another month or two, it won't just be Cairo or Ondrusek who are sacrified, it won't be Masset or Stubbs, it won't be Harang or Phillips, it will be Dusty himself and his line management crew who'll be sent to hit the dusty trail.

How do you rectify this ship? If it was up to me, I'd start with defense. We're getting pinged, dinged and slinged from all corners, so it's time to hunker down in the trenches, and fight back with the one element we know is our greatest existing strength. Time to play Janish as often as Cabrera, Hanigan as often as Hernandez, and Dickerson pretty much daily while resting either Stubbs or Gomes.

I'm not advocating that Cabrera, Hernandez and Stubbs/Gomes all get benched at the same time but I'd like to see a more defense-oriented than offense-oriented lineup. Our pitching is suspect, both starters and relievers, so we have to adjust accordingly. It shouldn't hurt to make the transition with Janish, Hanigan and Dickerson all wielding a hot bat, so far in 2010.

Once the defense gels, then the other dominoes will start to fall into place. That won't happen all at once or miraculously, but this team cannot win if it's average, below-average or flailing at every phase of the game. We have the in-house potential to be the most dominant defensive team in the majors, so let's do it, let's get that one foundation stone laid.

Then we can sort out which of the many available starters are best equipped to carry us forward through the rest of 2010 and on into 2011 and 2012. The bullpen will probably always be a work in progress, as it is for most teams. The offense -- we know Votto and Rolen are golden, and so we're halfway home there as well. Better to be making some progress, however limited, than to be mired in a swamp fending off gators at every turn.

Ron Madden
04-22-2010, 03:43 AM
There's no facet of the game where this team currently excels. The offense is off-kilter, the defense erratic, the starting pitchers can't go past 5 or 6 innings, and the bullpen has an implosion pretty much every night.
Dusty keeps talking like he's not fazed, but he's got to be going crazy -- because nothing's going right, there are brush fires all over the place, and no sanctuaries from what's looking like a brutal and devastating firestorm. If the firestorm isn't quelled in another month or two, it won't just be Cairo or Ondrusek who are sacrified, it won't be Masset or Stubbs, it won't be Harang or Phillips, it will be Dusty himself and his line management crew who'll be sent to hit the dusty trail.

How do you rectify this ship? If it was up to me, I'd start with defense. We're getting pinged, dinged and slinged from all corners, so it's time to hunker down in the trenches, and fight back with the one element we know is our greatest existing strength. Time to play Janish as often as Cabrera, Hanigan as often as Hernandez, and Dickerson pretty much daily while resting either Stubbs or Gomes.

I'm not advocating that Cabrera, Hernandez and Stubbs/Gomes all get benched at the same time but I'd like to see a more defense-oriented than offense-oriented lineup. Our pitching is suspect, both starters and relievers, so we have to adjust accordingly. It shouldn't hurt to make the transition with Janish, Hanigan and Dickerson all wielding a hot bat, so far in 2010.
Once the defense gels, then the other dominoes will start to fall into place. That won't happen all at once or miraculously, but this team cannot win if it's average, below-average or flailing at every phase of the game. We have the in-house potential to be the most dominant defensive team in the majors, so let's do it, let's get that one foundation stone laid.

Then we can sort out which of the many available starters are best equipped to carry us forward through the rest of 2010 and on into 2011 and 2012. The bullpen will probably always be a work in progress, as it is for most teams. The offense -- we know Votto and Rolen are golden, and so we're halfway home there as well. Better to be making some progress, however limited, than to be mired in a swamp fending off gators at every turn.


Agreed. Nice Post. :thumbup:

Chip R
04-22-2010, 10:09 AM
The Reds would be in trouble for one game if two infielders got hurt, but I bet Hanigan could play 3B for a few innings if he had to (Javy did it).


Not everyone is Javy. :luvu:

TRF
04-22-2010, 10:32 AM
Janish to SS as the starter. Immediately. Pray Wlad starts tearing up AAA, as Dorn is now a 1B. Probably where he belongs. Heiesy, Frazier and Francisco are all scuffling, but that didn't stop the Reds from promoting Stubbs last year. And he responded moderately well.

Supposedly speed and defense don't slump. LF, once again, was not properly addressed. Someone will have to step up, because you can't carry both Stubbs and Janish as starter until Stubbs turns it around or Janish proves he isn't a fluke right now.

edabbs44
04-22-2010, 12:52 PM
Then, when the team is putting up scores that look like binary code, we can start the "Offense" thread.

edabbs44
04-22-2010, 01:00 PM
Janish to SS as the starter. Immediately. Pray Wlad starts tearing up AAA, as Dorn is now a 1B. Probably where he belongs. Heiesy, Frazier and Francisco are all scuffling, but that didn't stop the Reds from promoting Stubbs last year. And he responded moderately well.

Supposedly speed and defense don't slump. LF, once again, was not properly addressed. Someone will have to step up, because you can't carry both Stubbs and Janish as starter until Stubbs turns it around or Janish proves he isn't a fluke right now.

Just looked to see how Wlad was doing in AAA....wow. .059 OPS.

Small sample size for sure, but that just looks ugly.

TRF
04-22-2010, 01:03 PM
Because OCab's .628 OPS is keeping the team afloat?

If he's not offering tremendous offense, and he is serving up horrendous defense, why play him?

Do you think he'll suddenly be 5 years younger and play good defense again? BTW, he's never actually been a good hitter. 2003, in Montreal, but mostly, meh. I can't for the life of me understand why you'd defend the guy.

TRF
04-22-2010, 01:07 PM
Just looked to see how Wlad was doing in AAA....wow. .059 OPS.

Small sample size for sure, but that just looks ugly.

Hence the part where i said "pray Wlad starts tearing up AAA..." His glove is much better than Gomes cement impression of leather. But he has to hit. BTW, how's Gomes hitting? Everything you thought it would be?

edabbs44
04-22-2010, 01:11 PM
Because OCab's .628 OPS is keeping the team afloat?

If he's not offering tremendous offense, and he is serving up horrendous defense, why play him?

Do you think he'll suddenly be 5 years younger and play good defense again? BTW, he's never actually been a good hitter. 2003, in Montreal, but mostly, meh. I can't for the life of me understand why you'd defend the guy.

I think his offense will improve. He has had some timely hits, so maybe his OPS isn't telling the entire story. He does have a .208 babip. He and Gomes are also 1/2 on the team in RBI. I know that RBI isn't a perfect stat and blah
blah blah, but you have to admit these guys are at least doing something out there to help the offense.

BRM
04-22-2010, 01:12 PM
I can't see how giving Janish more starts at SS would hurt. Cabrera is a net negative at the moment providing poor defense and offense. Janish would provide good defense at least. Hopefully he could at least match the paltry .628 OPS Cabrera has put up. Put him out there and see.

LF? A little tougher since none of the candidates are hitting much. Maybe give Nix the starts against RHP for awhile. Much better defense than Gomes anyway.

edabbs44
04-22-2010, 01:16 PM
Hence the part where i said "pray Wlad starts tearing up AAA..." His glove is much better than Gomes cement impression of leather. But he has to hit. BTW, how's Gomes hitting? Everything you thought it would be?

You should take it down a notch.

It's been 2.5 weeks. Gomes is 2nd on the team in RBI and the guy who some wanted to play in LF over him is sporting a line of .267/.290/.367 with an 11/1 K/BB ratio and 0 HR and 0 RBI. I don't know if you were pro-Dickerson (but if you are so ready to chop down Gomes you probably were on Dickerson's side) but do you think he has proven that he should have been given the LF job? If not Dickerson, who?

TRF
04-22-2010, 01:17 PM
I think his offense will improve. He has had some timely hits, so maybe his OPS isn't telling the entire story. He does have a .208 babip. He and Gomes are also 1/2 on the team in RBI. I know that RBI isn't a perfect stat and blah
blah blah, but you have to admit these guys are at least doing something out there to help the offense.

no i don't. OCab has a .242 OBP. that is sucktastic. Gomes is at .260. awful. Considering their pathetic to this point BA's, OBP's and SLG, it's frankly a MIRACLE they even have an RBI.

And Votto, Rolen and the last week or so Bruce have been killing the ball. They are this team's offense right now.

TRF
04-22-2010, 01:18 PM
You should take it down a notch.

It's been 2.5 weeks. Gomes is 2nd on the team in RBI and the guy who some wanted to play in LF over him is sporting a line of .267/.290/.367 with an 11/1 K/BB ratio and 0 HR and 0 RBI. I don't know if you were pro-Dickerson (but if you are so ready to chop down Gomes you probably were on Dickerson's side) but do you think he has proven that he should have been given the LF job? If not Dickerson, who?

I never wanted CD in LF. I want him in CF.

I was of the opinion that Walt never properly addressed LF. So far I'm right.

Kc61
04-22-2010, 01:27 PM
I find the defensive situation baffling.

Last year the team was focused on defense. The DER was excellent all year. They didn't hit, but at least there was a plan, an emphasis on pitching and defense.

This year, the defense has not been good. Doesn't the FO see this and how can they retreat on their game plan so thoroughly?

The answer is probably just money, that they couldn't afford to fill SS and LF with two-way players of high caliber in their prime.

But the result is a team that isn't doing anything well.

This is one of the most disappointing Aprils I can remember as a Reds fan. I expected better this year.

VR
04-22-2010, 01:27 PM
The two are in the top 5 for fewest pitches per ab. Not an area that I'd like to see any Red...especially guys in the producing part of the lineup.

Spring~Fields
04-22-2010, 01:30 PM
I think the Reds play so far has shown how important defense is to winning. Unfortunately it's because the Reds defense has been so bad.


The defense too? Has been infected with some mysterious malady?

All at the same time along with the pitching and offense.

What’s the odds and probability of that coincidence happening in or about the same general time, stats guys? Without some factor causing it, i.e. some influence causing it?

TRF
04-22-2010, 01:33 PM
Cabrera's glove may still be golden, but his feet are mired in quicksand. Gomes is just bad, and anyone expecting him to repeat last year's numbers offensively is just fooling themselves. defensively? ugh.

The problem is, and I have stated this in the past, this OF has the potential to be one of the worst in baseball. Bruce is coming around, Dickerson is what he is, and I believe in him enough to expect his OBP to get close to his MLB average. But LF is a disaster and CD doesn't apparently have any power. Nix should be released. He can't even hit RH's. He's supplying negative value.

I'm so underwhelmed by this team and it's construction. I do hope Rolen can stay healthy.

flyer85
04-22-2010, 01:35 PM
dusty loves veteran players ... that is all go back to your regular scheduled programming.

Spring~Fields
04-22-2010, 01:40 PM
Does anyone feel that each of the players have been placed in the best position for them to excel and succeed? Utilizing their strengths might be another way to express it.

Has what has been done to date, brought produced the best in them? Will they soon begin to perform at their historical OBP, SLG or OPS histories? Then there is the real thought and concern that the pitching needs all the serious help it can get from the defense, and the offensive run support. Are they getting that?

TheNext44
04-22-2010, 01:43 PM
I was of the opinion that Walt never properly addressed LF. So far I'm right.

To quote Ed McMahon...

You are correct, sir!

nate
04-22-2010, 01:50 PM
Does anyone feel that each of the players have been placed in the best position for them to excel and succeed?

In terms of production, absolutely not.

In terms of "baseball tradition" and "human elements," absolutely.

With Votto being the exception.

edabbs44
04-22-2010, 01:58 PM
I never wanted CD in LF. I want him in CF.

I was of the opinion that Walt never properly addressed LF. So far I'm right.

Would you be happy with Dickerson's horrible start to the season at the plate? Or would you be chanting "small sample size"?

Spring~Fields
04-22-2010, 02:17 PM
Would you be happy with Dickerson's horrible start to the season at the plate? Or would you be chanting "small sample size"?

What's he do with regular playing time, anyone know? I think that we have seen the rest, at least up to this point. Are Mr. Gomes and Mr. Stubbs, really that good at producing that they can't have an extra day off? Or are we just hoping that if they play enough and long enough that they will come out of it?

Similiar situations
Cabrera and Janish?
Hernandez and Hanigan?

Phillips Mr. cleanup excellence?

According to Phillips and Baker, Mr. Jocketty has not furnished a better option.

RedsManRick
04-22-2010, 02:23 PM
I wonder if we're confusing defensive performance with defensive talent. There's no doubt that the defense has not performed well this year, but what should we expect moving forward? Here's my really, really quick and dirty analysis (25 GS minimum)

C: Herandez, Hanigan = Hernandez, Hanigan
1B: Votto > Votto, Hernandez
2B: Phillips = Phillips
3B: Rolen > Rosales, EE, Rolen, Hairston
SS: Cabrera, Janish < Gonzalez, Janish, Hairston
LF: Gomes, Dickerson, Nix < Nix, Gomes, Dickerson
CF: Stubbs > Taveras, Stubbs
RF: Bruce > Bruce, Gomes

I know this doesn't include scale, but so far as I can see, we should be better in 4 spots, equal in 2, and worse in 2. I guess the question comes to how much damage Cabrera and Gomes are doing -- because otherwise we should be as good or better.

nate
04-22-2010, 02:34 PM
I wonder if we're confusing defensive performance with defensive talent. There's no doubt that the defense has not performed well this year, but what should we expect moving forward? Here's my really, really quick and dirty analysis (25 GS minimum)

C: Herandez, Hanigan = Hernandez, Hanigan
1B: Votto > Votto, Hernandez
2B: Phillips = Phillips
3B: Rolen > Rosales, EE, Rolen, Hairston
SS: Cabrera, Janish < Gonzalez, Janish, Hairston
LF: Gomes, Dickerson, Nix < Nix, Gomes, Dickerson
CF: Stubbs > Taveras, Stubbs
RF: Bruce > Bruce, Gomes

I know this doesn't include scale, but so far as I can see, we should be better in 4 spots, equal in 2, and worse in 2. I guess the question comes to how much damage Cabrera and Gomes are doing -- because otherwise we should be as good or better.

So far, using the popular technique of "my eyes," I remember at least three plays where Gomes has looked terrible out there. That includes the one where he was trying to knock that meteor out of the sky on a play to home the other day.

Cabrera doesn't look like he reacts quickly when the ball comes off the bat.

So, I pretty much agree...I don't know if it's the drubbing from last night or sub-conscious but I feel like Hernandez has been dreadful behind the plate. Don't really know why though.

TheNext44
04-22-2010, 02:35 PM
I wonder if we're confusing defensive performance with defensive talent. There's no doubt that the defense has not performed well this year, but what should we expect moving forward? Here's my really, really quick and dirty analysis (25 GS minimum)

C: Herandez, Hanigan = Hernandez, Hanigan
1B: Votto > Votto, Hernandez
2B: Phillips = Phillips
3B: Rolen > Rosales, EE, Rolen, Hairston
SS: Cabrera, Janish < Gonzalez, Janish, Hairston
LF: Gomes, Dickerson, Nix < Nix, Gomes, Dickerson
CF: Stubbs > Taveras, Stubbs
RF: Bruce > Bruce, Gomes

I know this doesn't include scale, but so far as I can see, we should be better in 4 spots, equal in 2, and worse in 2. I guess the question comes to how much damage Cabrera and Gomes are doing -- because otherwise we should be as good or better.

Thanks again for solid analysis, but just for clarification, it should be Votto/Cairo = Votto/Hernandez

puca
04-22-2010, 02:52 PM
What's he do with regular playing time, anyone know? I think that we have seen the rest, at least up to this point. Are Mr. Gomes and Mr. Stubbs, really that good at producing that they can't have an extra day off? Or are we just hoping that if they play enough and long enough that they will come out of it?

Similiar situations
Cabrera and Janish?
Hernandez and Hanigan?

Phillips Mr. cleanup excellence?

According to Phillips and Baker, Mr. Jocketty has not furnished a better option.

Stubbs has started 10 games, Dickerson has started 7 (5 in CF). Dickerson is not exactly chained to the bench.

Interesting (and admittedly meaningless) stat of the day: the Reds are 1-6 when Dickerson starts, 0-5 when he starts in CF.

TRF
04-22-2010, 02:53 PM
Would you be happy with Dickerson's horrible start to the season at the plate? Or would you be chanting "small sample size"?

No, I'm not happy with Dickerson at the plate right now. Neither am I surprised at Stubbs at the plate. But you make my point here regarding both players.

The difference between Dickerson and Stubbs in CF is probably negligible. I'll give the edge to Stubbs, but prior to his arrival in the system, Dickerson was the best defender in the OF. I still think they are likely 1-2 with no major drop off between them. Offensively, Stubbs is beyond horrible right now. So you live with CD's sub par production and the defense takes no hit, because subpar is much better than "Send him to AAA bad".

At SS, it's different. Janish's defense is so much better than OCab's that no one can justify him defensively as a starter. Offensively, Cabrera has been almost but not quite as bad as Stubbs. SAMPLE SIZE ALERT... Janish hasn't been bad. Of course he's not as good as his current numbers we know that, but he might save 20 runs or more defensively. And frankly right now, this staff needs every plus glove it can get behind them.

_Sir_Charles_
04-22-2010, 03:11 PM
In my opinion, the situation in left and center are totally up in the air. Simply because any backup solution we may have...is struggling as well. I guess we could give Nix a start or two...but he's looked pretty overmatched at the plate too. If we go strictly defense for LF & CF, then it's Dickerson/Stubbs. I'd lean towards that, if for no other reason it might get Dusty to lean towards those two hitting 1-2 and bumping the SS out of that equation. But right now, NONE of the LF/CF options are hitting.

In regards to short...this one's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned. Since the start of spring...all Janish has done at the plate is produce. I'm not deluded enough (not QUITE) to think that he's "turned the corner" or some such. But I AM convinced that he's going to hit enough to justify that glove. That glove solves SOOOOO many problems IMO. More inning ending DP's, fewer bloop singles & seeing-eye groundballs, more confidence for the pitchers, etc, etc. I just don't see what Cabrera brings to the table. I know he's had some "clutch" hits, but overall he's been pretty pedestrian at the plate and abysmal in the field. Time for a change...and quickly.

RedsManRick
04-22-2010, 03:26 PM
Thanks again for solid analysis, but just for clarification, it should be Votto/Cairo = Votto/Hernandez

I don't believe that Cairo will get 25+ starts at 1B. In the FWIW department, Fangraphs has released its first run of UZR data, with some adjustments to account for park effects.

This data is not predictive in any way, shape, or form (which is why I didn't post the UZR/150), but it can be considered an accurate description of what has happened to date. For the uninitiated, the currency here is runs.

To my earlier, point, I don't think the performance we've gotten defensively so far is indicative of what we can generally expect moving forward.


Name Pos Inn UZR
Joey Votto 1B 124 2.1
Jay Bruce RF 127 1.9
Chris Dickerson RF 7 0.7
Paul Janish SS 10 0.5
Chris Dickerson CF 36 0.5
Brandon Phillip 2B 134 0.3
Juan Francisco 3B 9 0.0
Miguel Cairo 3B 8 0.0
Paul Janish 3B 21 0.0
Laynce Nix LF 19 -0.1
Miguel Cairo 1B 10 -0.3
Chris Dickerson LF 14 -0.4
Scott Rolen 3B 95 -1.8
Orlando Cabrera SS 124 -2.4
Jonny Gomes LF 101 -2.4
Drew Stubbs CF 98 -4.2

I must say, I'm very curious about the plays which Stubbs has botched -- they don't immediately come to mind. But fangraphs has him not making only 17 of 19 plays in zone and with a big -0.9 against him for his arm. OCab has made a ridiculously poor 72.5% plays in zone, 4th worst in baseball among SS with 100 innings. Sadly, he was 3rd worst in baseball last year at 76.3%. Janish, by contrast, was the best in MLB at 86.1%. Their UZRs last year were over 20 runs apart. I doubt Cabrera's bat makes up that difference...

Data from here: http://www.fangraphs.com/winss.aspx?team=Reds&pos=all&stats=fld&qual=0&type=1&season=2010&month=0

bucksfan2
04-22-2010, 03:29 PM
In regards to short...this one's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned. Since the start of spring...all Janish has done at the plate is produce. I'm not deluded enough (not QUITE) to think that he's "turned the corner" or some such. But I AM convinced that he's going to hit enough to justify that glove. That glove solves SOOOOO many problems IMO. More inning ending DP's, fewer bloop singles & seeing-eye groundballs, more confidence for the pitchers, etc, etc. I just don't see what Cabrera brings to the table. I know he's had some "clutch" hits, but overall he's been pretty pedestrian at the plate and abysmal in the field. Time for a change...and quickly.

Im not going to put my faith in Janish and 11 at bats this season. He will get a chance to prove himself this season and after 100 at bats if he still is doing well then yea I can see the Reds giving him more playing time.

nate
04-22-2010, 03:31 PM
Im not going to put my faith in Janish and 11 at bats this season. He will get a chance to prove himself this season and after 100 at bats if he still is doing well then yea I can see the Reds giving him more playing time.

Well, at this rate, 100 ABs is about what he'll end up with come October.

_Sir_Charles_
04-22-2010, 03:36 PM
Im not going to put my faith in Janish and 11 at bats this season. He will get a chance to prove himself this season and after 100 at bats if he still is doing well then yea I can see the Reds giving him more playing time.

Performance at the plate will vary throughout the year for ALL players (well, maybe not freakin' pooholes). Cabrera may very well bounce back a bit and hit somewhat better. Janish (and I'm looking at the 40 or so ST ab's too) may very well regress back to his poor hitting too. Both are certainly likely. But their skills with the gloves aren't going to change much. THAT'S where you've simply GOT to put Janish in there for starting. Cabrera's glove is killing us. It's just HORRIBLE. He can't jump to get balls above his head, he's got no lateral quickness at all, his range is simply abysmal, and his arm isn't anything to write home about. If it were any other position than CF or SS...I'd consider to let some of it slide if he were hitting well. But it IS shortstop...and he's not hitting well. Janish may hit or he may not...but he WILL field his position and help his teammates & pitchers with his D.

TRF
04-22-2010, 03:36 PM
Im not going to put my faith in Janish and 11 at bats this season. He will get a chance to prove himself this season and after 100 at bats if he still is doing well then yea I can see the Reds giving him more playing time.

How many GB's past OCab would you allow. Faith is a funny thing. Enough of it can blind you to other things. OCab isn't hitting and his defense is bad. But he did win some hardware.

Do you have faith that he's going to be a plus defender again?

bucksfan2
04-22-2010, 03:57 PM
Well, at this rate, 100 ABs is about what he'll end up with come October.

Last year he got roughly 300 at bats and didn't run away with the job. This year he will get his playing time, maybe not as much as people want, but if he keeps hitting he will get his chance.

The other night FSN showed a slow motion replay of Janish RBI hit in the 8th inning. I was shocked to see how little wrist action he has. He generates little power from his wrist action which may be the reason behind his lack of power development. After seeing his swing in slow motion I just don't think his offensive game will ever be up to snuff. The best I hope for out of Janish is to become a very good bat handler, someone who is difficult to strike out and knows how to take a walk.

nate
04-22-2010, 04:41 PM
The other night FSN showed a slow motion replay of Janish RBI hit in the 8th inning. I was shocked to see how little wrist action he has. He generates little power from his wrist action which may be the reason behind his lack of power development. After seeing his swing in slow motion I just don't think his offensive game will ever be up to snuff. The best I hope for out of Janish is to become a very good bat handler, someone who is difficult to strike out and knows how to take a walk.

That's what he is right now. His career K-rate (14.7%) is less than the MLB average (17.8%) and his BB-rate (8.9%) is a tick above average (8.8%).

He is what he is. I think he's as valuable if not more so than O-Cab.

Plus, he'd be one of the better relievers!

:cool:

bucksfan2
04-22-2010, 04:45 PM
Plus, he'd be one of the better relievers!

:cool:

I was looking up his stats and just had to chuckle at his pitching line. His ERA is in the 40's but he does have 2K's.

IslandRed
04-22-2010, 04:53 PM
How many GB's past OCab would you allow. Faith is a funny thing. Enough of it can blind you to other things. OCab isn't hitting and his defense is bad. But he did win some hardware.

Do you have faith that he's going to be a plus defender again?

From what I've seen so far, I don't. Having said that, I was perfectly okay with bringing him in. Janish is what he is -- he's an excellent defender and he can't hit. Not good enough, in other words, and the Reds gave themselves a chance to do better. But if Cabrera isn't better, then yes, move Janish in. Given two shortstops of more-or-less equivalent total value, I take the superior defender because of the residual benefits to the pitching staff.

OnBaseMachine
05-18-2010, 12:14 AM
*Bump*

I've been hard on Orlando Cabrera for his defense, but I have no problem giving credit where credit is due. Cabrera has made a couple nice plays in the last three games. The first was the relay throw to Hernandez to get Schumaker at the plate on Saturday night, and the other play was tonight when he threw out Alcides Escobar at the plate on a groundball from Ryan Braun. That was a very, very good play by Cabrera. I didn't think he had a chance to get him but he did.

I still think his range is well below average, but he's made some nice plays in the last few days and I felt like I should point that out. I may criticize players sometimes but I also like to be fair and give them credit when they deserve it. I hope he continues to play well like he has lately.

Captain Hook
05-18-2010, 12:30 AM
*Bump*

I've been hard on Orlando Cabrera for his defense, but I have no problem giving credit where credit is due. Cabrera has made a couple nice plays in the last three games. The first was the relay throw to Hernandez to get Schumaker at the plate on Saturday night, and the other play was tonight when he threw out Alcides Escobar at the plate on a groundball from Ryan Braun. That was a very, very good play by Cabrera. I didn't think he had a chance to get him but he did.

I still think his range is well below average, but he's made some nice plays in the last few days and I felt like I should point that out. I may criticize players sometimes but I also like to be fair and give them credit when they deserve it. I hope he continues to play well like he has lately.

I have to second everything OBM says here.His defense was really bad early on but at least on the surface it appears to be improving.One poster mentioned that it was possible that as the season went on maybe the older Cabrera would loosen up a bit.Looks like that might end up being the case.There's reason to believe he'll continue to hit so I'm on board.

I no longer indorse Janish for SS in 2010.

Will M
05-18-2010, 01:03 AM
*Bump*

I've been hard on Orlando Cabrera for his defense, but I have no problem giving credit where credit is due. Cabrera has made a couple nice plays in the last three games. The first was the relay throw to Hernandez to get Schumaker at the plate on Saturday night, and the other play was tonight when he threw out Alcides Escobar at the plate on a groundball from Ryan Braun. That was a very, very good play by Cabrera. I didn't think he had a chance to get him but he did.

I still think his range is well below average, but he's made some nice plays in the last few days and I felt like I should point that out. I may criticize players sometimes but I also like to be fair and give them credit when they deserve it. I hope he continues to play well like he has lately.


I have to second everything OBM says here.His defense was really bad early on but at least on the surface it appears to be improving.One poster mentioned that it was possible that as the season went on maybe the older Cabrera would loosen up a bit.Looks like that might end up being the case.There's reason to believe he'll continue to hit so I'm on board.

I no longer indorse Janish for SS in 2010.

my unscientific casual observation is that there are less ground balls to his right or left slipping by him for hits. why i don't know. i agree that his defense has been better lately. it seems the team overall has been playing great defense during their strong play the last 3 weeks

reds44
05-18-2010, 01:12 AM
Cabrera is a wierd player. His OPS is really bad (.683), but he's not a guy I dread coming to the plate. I think he's one of the few cases where he is a bad hitter than his numbers would lead you to believe.

Will M
05-18-2010, 02:50 AM
i've noticed Dusty is starting to use Heisey in LF as a late inning defensive replacement. i like it. saved the Reds on saturday.